:00:37. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed
:00:42. > :00:47.the extra hour in bed, and that you've realised it's not 12:45. It's
:00:48. > :00:50.11:45! It's getting stormy outside. But they're already battening down
:00:51. > :00:52.the hatches at Number Ten because coalition splits are back, with
:00:53. > :00:57.bust-ups over free schools and power bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems,
:00:58. > :01:01.and ask Labour who's conning whom over energy.
:01:02. > :01:04.EU leaders have been meeting in Brussels. But how's David Cameron
:01:05. > :01:15.getting on with that plan to change our relationship with Europe? We
:01:16. > :01:19.were there to ask him. Have we got any powers back yet? DS!
:01:20. > :01:20.Foreign companies own everything from our energy companies to our
:01:21. > :01:34.railways. Does it from our energy companies to our
:01:35. > :01:38.as many daily journeys made by bus than by tube, so why is the planned
:01:39. > :01:45.investment in buses not keeping pace?
:01:46. > :01:49.And with me, three journalists who've bravely agreed to hunker down
:01:50. > :01:51.in the studio while Britain braces itself for massive storm winds,
:01:52. > :01:55.tweeting their political forecasts with all the accuracy of Michael
:01:56. > :02:01.Fish on hurricane watch. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt.
:02:02. > :02:06.Now, sometimes coalition splits are over-egged, or dare we say even
:02:07. > :02:09.occasionally stage-managed. But this week, we've seen what looks like the
:02:10. > :02:12.genuine article. It turns out Nick Clegg has his doubts about the
:02:13. > :02:16.coalition's flagship free schools policy. David Cameron doesn't much
:02:17. > :02:19.like the green levies on our energy bills championed by the Lib Dems.
:02:20. > :02:23.Neither of them seems to have bothered to tell the other that they
:02:24. > :02:27.had their doubts. Who better to discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem
:02:28. > :02:37.Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. The
:02:38. > :02:42.Lib Dems spent three years of sticking up for the coalition when
:02:43. > :02:46.times were grim. Explain to me the logic of splitting from them when
:02:47. > :02:51.times look better. We will stick with it for five years. It is
:02:52. > :02:55.working arrangement, but not surprisingly, where there right
:02:56. > :02:59.areas on which we disagree over where to go next, we will stand up.
:03:00. > :03:04.It is going to be hard enough for the Lib Dems to get any credit for
:03:05. > :03:09.the recovery, what ever it is. It will be even harder if you seem to
:03:10. > :03:13.be semidetached and picky. The coalition has led on economic
:03:14. > :03:19.policy, some of which were entirely from our stable. The one you have
:03:20. > :03:24.heard about most often, a Lib Dem initiative, was to take people on
:03:25. > :03:27.blowing comes out of tax. The recovery would not have happened,
:03:28. > :03:32.there would not have been confidence in Britain, had there not been a
:03:33. > :03:37.coalition government with us in it, making sure the same policies
:03:38. > :03:41.produced fair outcomes. We are not going to leave the credit for any
:03:42. > :03:46.growth - and there has been very good news this week. We have played
:03:47. > :03:50.a part in that, and without us, it would not have happened. Does it not
:03:51. > :03:54.underline the trust problem you have? You promised to abolish
:03:55. > :04:01.tuition fees. You oppose nuclear power, now you are cheerleading the
:04:02. > :04:06.first multi-billion pounds investment in nuclear generation.
:04:07. > :04:10.You are dying out on your enthusiasm on green levies, and now they are up
:04:11. > :04:17.for renegotiation. Why should we trust a word you say? In relation to
:04:18. > :04:27.green levies, as you well know, just under 10% is to do with helping
:04:28. > :04:31.energy and helping people. Unless there is continuing investment in
:04:32. > :04:35.renewables, we will not have the British produced energy at cheaper
:04:36. > :04:39.cost to keep those bills down in the future. At cheaper cost? Explain
:04:40. > :04:48.that to me. Off-shore energy is twice the market rate. The costs of
:04:49. > :04:53.renewables will increasingly come down. We have fantastic capacity to
:04:54. > :04:58.produce the energy and deliver lots of jobs in the process. The parts of
:04:59. > :05:02.the energy bill that may be up for renegotiation seems to be the part
:05:03. > :05:08.where we subsidise to help either poor people pay less, or where we do
:05:09. > :05:13.other things. Too insulated the homes? Are you up to putting that to
:05:14. > :05:19.general taxation? Wouldn't that be progressive? I would. It would be
:05:20. > :05:22.progressive. I would like to do for energy bills what the Chancellor has
:05:23. > :05:29.done for road traffic users, drivers, which is too fuelled motor
:05:30. > :05:33.fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That would mean there would be an
:05:34. > :05:39.immediate relief this year, not waiting for the election. So there
:05:40. > :05:43.is a deal to be done there? Yes. We understand we have to take the
:05:44. > :05:46.burden off the consumer, and also deal with the energy companies, who
:05:47. > :05:50.look as if they are not paying all the tax they should be, and the
:05:51. > :05:55.regulator, which doesn't regulate quickly enough to deal with the
:05:56. > :05:59.issues coming down the track. We can toughen the regulator, and I hope
:06:00. > :06:02.that the Chancellor, in the Autumn statement, was signalled that energy
:06:03. > :06:06.companies will not be allowed to get away with not paying the taxes they
:06:07. > :06:13.should. And this deal will allow energy prices to come down? Yes. How
:06:14. > :06:18.could David Laws, one of your ministers, proudly defend the record
:06:19. > :06:23.of unqualified teachers working in free schools, and then stand
:06:24. > :06:29.side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he says he is against them? David Laws
:06:30. > :06:34.was not proudly defending the fact that it is unqualified teachers. He
:06:35. > :06:39.said that some of the new, unqualified teachers in free schools
:06:40. > :06:44.are doing a superb job. But you want to get rid of them? We want to make
:06:45. > :06:50.sure that everybody coming into a free school ends up being qualified.
:06:51. > :06:55.Ends up? Goes through a process that means they have qualifications. Just
:06:56. > :07:00.as we said very clearly at the last election that the manifesto
:07:01. > :07:04.curriculum in free schools should be the same as other schools. It looks
:07:05. > :07:11.like Mr Clegg is picking a fight just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg
:07:12. > :07:14.was taught by people who didn't have teaching qualifications in one of
:07:15. > :07:19.the greatest schools in the land, if not the world. It didn't seem to do
:07:20. > :07:24.him any harm. What is the problem? If you pay to go to a school, you
:07:25. > :07:31.know what you're getting. But that is what a free school is. No, you
:07:32. > :07:35.don't pay fees. A free school is parents taking the decisions, not
:07:36. > :07:39.you, the politicians. We believe they would expect to guarantee is,
:07:40. > :07:44.firstly that the minimum curriculum taught across the country is taught
:07:45. > :07:47.in the free schools, and secondly, that the teachers there are
:07:48. > :07:52.qualified. Someone who send their kids to private schools took a
:07:53. > :07:59.decision to take -- to send their children there, even if the teachers
:08:00. > :08:03.were unqualified, because they are experts in their field. Someone who
:08:04. > :08:10.send their kids to free schools is because -- is their decision, not
:08:11. > :08:13.yours. Because some of the free schools are new, and have never been
:08:14. > :08:19.there before, parents need a guarantee that there are some basics
:08:20. > :08:24.in place, whatever sort of school. So they need you to hold their hand?
:08:25. > :08:29.It is not about holding hands, it is about having a minimum guarantee.
:08:30. > :08:33.Our party made clear at our conference that this is a priority
:08:34. > :08:37.for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view of the party, and I believe it is an
:08:38. > :08:41.entirely rational thing to do. Nick Clegg complained that the Prime
:08:42. > :08:50.Minister gave him only 30 minutes notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's
:08:51. > :08:53.U-turn on green levies. That is almost as little time as Nick Clegg
:08:54. > :08:57.gave the Prime Minister on his U-turn on free schools. Aren't you
:08:58. > :09:06.supposed to be partners? Green levies were under discussion in the
:09:07. > :09:10.ministerial group before Wednesday, because we identified this as an
:09:11. > :09:16.issue. We do that in a practical way. Sometimes there is only half an
:09:17. > :09:22.hour's notice. We had even less than half an hour this morning! Simon
:09:23. > :09:27.Hughes, thank you. So the price of energy is the big
:09:28. > :09:32.battle ground in politics at the moment. 72% of people say that high
:09:33. > :09:36.bills will influence the way they vote at the next election. Ed
:09:37. > :09:41.Miliband has promised a price freeze after the next election, but will
:09:42. > :09:47.the coalition turned the tables on Labour, with its proposal to roll
:09:48. > :09:55.back green levies. Caroline Flint joins us from Sheffield. It looks
:09:56. > :10:03.like the coalition will be able to take ?50 of energy bills, by
:10:04. > :10:06.removing green levies. It is quite clear that different parts of the
:10:07. > :10:10.government are running round waking up to the fact that the public feel
:10:11. > :10:14.that this government has not done enough to listen to their concerns.
:10:15. > :10:18.Last week, there was a classic case of the Prime Minister making up
:10:19. > :10:23.policy literally at the dispatch box. Let's see what they say in the
:10:24. > :10:26.autumn statement. The truth is, whatever the debate around green
:10:27. > :10:31.levies, and I have always said we should look at value for money at
:10:32. > :10:49.those green levies. Our argument is about acknowledging there is
:10:50. > :10:51.something wrong with the way the market works, and the way those
:10:52. > :10:54.companies are regulated. Behind our freeze for 20 months is a package of
:10:55. > :10:56.proposals to reform this market. I understand that, but you cannot tell
:10:57. > :10:59.as the details about that. I can. You cannot give us the details about
:11:00. > :11:02.reforming the market. We are going to do three things, and I think I
:11:03. > :11:06.said this last time I was on the programme. First, we are going to
:11:07. > :11:13.separate out the generation side from the supply side within the big
:11:14. > :11:18.six. Secondly, we will have a energy pool, or power exchange, where all
:11:19. > :11:22.energy will have to be traded in that pool. Thirdly, we will
:11:23. > :11:26.establish a tougher regulator, because Ofgem is increasingly being
:11:27. > :11:31.seen as not doing the job right. I notice that you didn't mention any
:11:32. > :11:36.reform of the current green and social taxes on the energy bill. Is
:11:37. > :11:42.it Labour's policy to maintain the existing green levies? In 2011, the
:11:43. > :11:48.government chose to get rid of warm front, which was the publicly funded
:11:49. > :11:52.through tracks a scheme to support new installation. When they got rid
:11:53. > :11:58.of that, it was the first time we had a government since the 70s that
:11:59. > :12:03.didn't have such a policy. What is your policy? We voted against that
:12:04. > :12:09.because we believe it is wrong. We believe that the eco-scheme, a
:12:10. > :12:17.government intervention which is ?47 of the ?112 on our bills each year,
:12:18. > :12:21.is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't going to the fuel poor. I am up for
:12:22. > :12:24.a debate on these issues. I am up for a discussion on what the
:12:25. > :12:28.government should do and what these energy companies should do. We
:12:29. > :12:32.cannot let Cameron all the energy companies off the hook from the way
:12:33. > :12:38.in which they organise their businesses, and expect us to pay
:12:39. > :12:42.ever increasing rises in our bills. There is ?112 of green levies on our
:12:43. > :12:47.bills at the moment. Did you vote against any of them? We didn't, but
:12:48. > :12:54.what I would say ease these were government imposed levies. When they
:12:55. > :13:02.got rid of the government funded programme, Warm Front, they
:13:03. > :13:09.introduced the eco-scheme. The eco-project is one of the ones where
:13:10. > :13:13.the energy companies are saying, it's too bureaucratic, and it is
:13:14. > :13:15.proving more expensive than government estimates, apparently
:13:16. > :13:20.doubled the amount the government thought. These things are all worth
:13:21. > :13:25.looking at, but don't go to the heart of the issue. According to
:13:26. > :13:36.official figures, on current plans, which you support, which you voted
:13:37. > :13:42.for, households will be paying 41% more per unit of electricity by
:13:43. > :13:51.2030. It puts your temporary freeze as just a blip. You support a 41%
:13:52. > :13:56.rise in our bills. I support making sure we secure for the future access
:13:57. > :14:01.to energy that we can grow here in the UK, whether it is through
:14:02. > :14:09.nuclear, wind or solar, or other technologies yet to be developed. We
:14:10. > :14:14.should protect ourselves against energy costs we cannot control. The
:14:15. > :14:18.truth is, it is every fair for you to put that point across, and I
:14:19. > :14:22.accept that, but we need to hear the other side about the cost for bill
:14:23. > :14:26.payers if we didn't invest in new, indigenous sources of energy supply
:14:27. > :14:31.for the future, which, in the long run, will be cheaper and more
:14:32. > :14:35.secure, and create the jobs we need. I think it is important to
:14:36. > :14:39.have a debate about these issues, but they have to be seen in the
:14:40. > :14:46.right context. If we stay stuck in the past, we will pay more and we
:14:47. > :14:51.will not create jobs. How can you criticise the coalition's plans for
:14:52. > :14:56.a new nuclear station, when jeering 13 years of a Labour government, you
:14:57. > :14:59.did not invest in a single nuclear plant? You sold off all our nuclear
:15:00. > :15:13.technology to foreign companies. Energy provision was put out to
:15:14. > :15:22.private hands and there has been no obstacle in British law against
:15:23. > :15:29.ownership outside the UK. Part of this is looking ahead. Because your
:15:30. > :15:33.previous track record is so bad? What we did decide under the
:15:34. > :15:38.previous government, we came to the view, and there were discussions in
:15:39. > :15:45.our party about this, that we did need to support a nuclear future.
:15:46. > :15:48.At the time of that, David Cameron was one of those saying that
:15:49. > :15:53.nuclear power should be a last resort. And as you said, the
:15:54. > :15:59.Liberals did not support it. We stood up for that. We set in train
:16:00. > :16:02.the green light of 10 sites, including Hinkley Point, for
:16:03. > :16:06.nuclear development. I am glad to see that is making progress and we
:16:07. > :16:10.should make more progress over the years ahead. We took a tough
:16:11. > :16:19.decision when other governments had not done. You did not build a new
:16:20. > :16:27.nuclear station. When you get back into power, will you build HS2?
:16:28. > :16:33.That has not had a blank cheque from the Labour Party. I am in
:16:34. > :16:39.favour of good infrastructure. Are you in favour of?, answer the
:16:40. > :16:44.question? I have answered the question. It does not have a blank
:16:45. > :16:49.cheque. If the prices are too high, we will review the decision when we
:16:50. > :16:54.come back to vote on it. We will be looking at it closely. We have to
:16:55. > :16:59.look for value for money and how it benefits the country. Have you
:17:00. > :17:03.stocked up on jumpers this winter? I am perfectly all right with my
:17:04. > :17:10.clothing. What is important, it is ridiculous for the Government to
:17:11. > :17:20.suggest that the answer to the loss of trust in the energy companies is
:17:21. > :17:26.to put on another jumper. The coalition has taken a long time
:17:27. > :17:31.to come up with anything that can trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing
:17:32. > :17:36.energy prices, vote for us. Are they on the brink of doing so? I do
:17:37. > :17:40.not think so. They have had a problem that has dominated the
:17:41. > :17:46.debate, talking about GDP, the figures came out on Friday and said,
:17:47. > :17:51.well, and went back to talking about energy. My problem with what
:17:52. > :17:56.David Cameron proposes is he agrees with the analysis that the Big Six
:17:57. > :18:01.make too many profits. He wants to move the green levies into general
:18:02. > :18:07.taxation, so that he looks like he is protecting the profits of the
:18:08. > :18:12.energy companies. If the coalition can say they will take money off
:18:13. > :18:18.the bills, does that change the game? I do not think the Liberal
:18:19. > :18:24.Democrats are an obstacle to unwinding the green levies. I think
:18:25. > :18:28.Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal, but the real obstacle is the carbon
:18:29. > :18:34.reduction targets that we signed up to during the boom years. They were
:18:35. > :18:37.ambitious I thought at the time. From that we have the taxes and
:18:38. > :18:43.clocking up of the supply-side of the economy. Unless he will revise
:18:44. > :18:47.that, and build from first principles a new strategy, he
:18:48. > :18:54.cannot do more than put a dent into green levies. He might say as I
:18:55. > :18:58.have got to ?50 now and if you voters in in an overall majority, I
:18:59. > :19:03.will look up what we have done in the better times and give you more.
:19:04. > :19:08.I am sure he will do that. It might be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be
:19:09. > :19:13.?50 on your general taxation bill, which would be more progressive.
:19:14. > :19:19.They will find it. We will never see it in general taxation. The
:19:20. > :19:25.problem for the Coalition on what Ed Miliband has done is that it is
:19:26. > :19:29.five weeks since he made that speech and it is all we are talking
:19:30. > :19:32.about. David Cameron spent those five weeks trying to work out
:19:33. > :19:36.whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or whether he is connected to Middle
:19:37. > :19:41.Britain. That is why Ed Miliband set the agenda. The coalition are
:19:42. > :19:49.squabbling among themselves, looking petulant, on energy, and on
:19:50. > :19:55.schools. Nobody is taking notice of the fact the economy is under way,
:19:56. > :20:01.the recovery is under way. Ed Miliband has made the weather on
:20:02. > :20:07.this. It UK has a relaxed attitude about
:20:08. > :20:15.selling off assets based -- to companies based abroad. But this
:20:16. > :20:17.week we have seen the Swiss owner of one of Scotland's largest
:20:18. > :20:20.industrial sites, Grangemouth, come within a whisker of closing part of
:20:21. > :20:23.it down. So should we care whether British assets have foreign owners?
:20:24. > :20:26.Britain might be a nation of homeowners, but we appear to have
:20:27. > :20:31.lost our taste for owning some of our biggest businesses. These are
:20:32. > :20:38.among the crown jewels sold off in the past three decades to companies
:20:39. > :20:41.based abroad. Roughly half of Britain's essential services have
:20:42. > :20:43.overseas owners. The airport owner, British Airports Authority, is
:20:44. > :20:45.owned by a Spanish company. Britain's largest water company,
:20:46. > :20:49.Thames, is owned by a consortium led by an Australian bank. Four out
:20:50. > :20:52.of six of Britain's biggest energy companies are owned by overseas
:20:53. > :20:55.giants, and one of these, EDF Energy, which is owned by the
:20:56. > :20:57.French state, is building Britain's first nuclear power plant in a
:20:58. > :21:05.generation, backed by Chinese investors. It's a similar story for
:21:06. > :21:10.train operator Arriva, bought by a company owned by the German state.
:21:11. > :21:12.So part of the railways privatised by the British government was
:21:13. > :21:22.effectively re-nationalised by the German government. But does it
:21:23. > :21:25.matter who owns these companies, as long as the lights stay on, the
:21:26. > :21:31.trains run on time, and we can still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk?
:21:32. > :21:36.We are joined by the general secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and
:21:37. > :21:44.by venture capitalist Julie Meyer. They go head to head.
:21:45. > :21:50.Have we seen the consequences of relying for essential services to
:21:51. > :21:56.be foreign-owned? Four of the Big Six energy companies, Grangemouth,
:21:57. > :22:03.owned by a tax exile in Switzerland. It is not good. I do not think
:22:04. > :22:07.there is a cause and effect relationship between foreign
:22:08. > :22:12.ownership and consumer prices. That is not the right comparison. We
:22:13. > :22:15.need to be concerned about businesses represented the future,
:22:16. > :22:20.businesses we are good at innovating for example in financial
:22:21. > :22:27.services and the UK has a history of building businesses, such as
:22:28. > :22:37.Monotypes. If we were not creating businesses here -- Monotise. Like
:22:38. > :22:47.so many businesses creating products and services and creating
:22:48. > :22:52.the shareholders. Should we allow hour essential services to be in
:22:53. > :22:56.foreign ownership? It was demonstrated this week at
:22:57. > :23:01.Grangemouth. If you do not own the industry, you do not own it. The
:23:02. > :23:05.MPs of this country and the politicians in Scotland have no say,
:23:06. > :23:11.they were consultants. Multinationals decide whether to
:23:12. > :23:16.shut a company down. If that had been Unite union, they are the ones
:23:17. > :23:22.who saved the jobs. They capitulated. They will come back,
:23:23. > :23:26.like they have for the past 150 years, and capture again what they
:23:27. > :23:33.lost. If it had closed, they would have lost their jobs for ever. If
:23:34. > :23:37.the union had called the members up without a ballot for strike action,
:23:38. > :23:42.there would have been uproar. This person in Switzerland can decide to
:23:43. > :23:47.shut the entire industry down. The coalition, the Labour Party, as
:23:48. > :23:53.well, when Labour was in government, they played a role of allowing
:23:54. > :24:05.industries to go abroad, and it should be returned to public
:24:06. > :24:12.ownership. Nestor. It has demonstrated that the Net comes
:24:13. > :24:18.from new businesses. We must not be... When Daly motion was stopped
:24:19. > :24:24.by the French government to be sold, it was an arrow to the heart of
:24:25. > :24:28.French entrepreneurs. We must not create that culture in the UK.
:24:29. > :24:32.Every train running in France is built in France. 90% of the trains
:24:33. > :24:43.running in Germany are built in Germany. In Japan, it has to be
:24:44. > :24:47.built in that country, and now an energy company in France is
:24:48. > :24:50.reducing its nuclear capability in its own country and wants to make
:24:51. > :24:55.profits out of the British industry to put back into it state industry.
:24:56. > :24:59.That happened with the railway industry. They want to make money
:25:00. > :25:09.at the expense of their own state companies. We sold off energy
:25:10. > :25:14.production. How did we end up in a position where our nuclear capacity
:25:15. > :25:18.will be built by a company owned by a socialist date, France, and
:25:19. > :25:26.funded by a communist one, China, for vital infrastructure? I am not
:25:27. > :25:31.suggesting that is in the national interest. I am saying we can pick
:25:32. > :25:35.any one example and say it is a shame. The simple matter of the
:25:36. > :25:40.fact is the owners are having to make decisions. Not just
:25:41. > :25:44.Grangemouth, businesses are making decisions about what is the common
:25:45. > :25:50.good. Not just in the shareholders' interest. For employees, customers.
:25:51. > :25:56.What is in the common good when prices go up by 10% and the reason
:25:57. > :26:00.is that 20 years ago they shut every coal pit down in this country,
:26:01. > :26:03.the Germans kept theirs open and subsidised it and now we have the
:26:04. > :26:12.Germans doing away with nuclear power and they have coal. Under the
:26:13. > :26:18.Labour government, in 2008, the climate change Act was passed. Well
:26:19. > :26:22.before that, and you know yourself, they shut down the coal mines to
:26:23. > :26:26.smash the National Union of Mineworkers because they dared to
:26:27. > :26:31.stand up for people in their community. Even if we wanted to
:26:32. > :26:36.reopen the coalmines, it would be pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we
:26:37. > :26:42.are not meant to burn more coal. The can, as if you spent some of
:26:43. > :26:51.the profits, you could have carbon catch up. That does not exist on a
:26:52. > :26:54.massive scale. You are arguing the case, Julie Meyer, for
:26:55. > :27:00.entrepreneurs to come to this country. Even Bob Crow is not
:27:01. > :27:07.against that. We are trying to argue, should essential services be
:27:08. > :27:14.in foreign hands? Not those in Silicon round about doing start-ups.
:27:15. > :27:18.I am trying to draw a broader principle than just energy.
:27:19. > :27:25.Something like broadband services, also important to the functioning
:27:26. > :27:30.of the economy. I believe in the UK's ability to innovate. When we
:27:31. > :27:35.have businesses that play off broadband companies to get the best
:27:36. > :27:41.prices for consumers. These new businesses and business models are
:27:42. > :27:47.the best way. Not to control, but to influence. It will be a disaster.
:27:48. > :27:53.Prices will go up and up as a result. Nissan in Sunderland, a
:27:54. > :27:57.Japanese factory, some of the best cars and productivity. You want
:27:58. > :28:02.that to be nationalised and bring it down to the standard of British
:28:03. > :28:05.Leyland? It is not bring it down to the standard. The car manufacturing
:28:06. > :28:12.base in this country has been wrecked. We make more cars now for
:28:13. > :28:17.20 years -- than in 20 years. Ford's Dagenham produced some of
:28:18. > :28:24.the best cars in the world. Did you buy one? I cannot drive. They moved
:28:25. > :28:31.their plants to other countries, where it was cheaper labour. Would
:28:32. > :28:36.you nationalise Nissan? There should be one car industry that
:28:37. > :28:41.produces cars for people. This week the EU summit was about Angela
:28:42. > :28:49.Merkel's mobile phone being tapped, they call it a handy. We sent Adam
:28:50. > :28:53.to Brussels and told him to ignore the business about phone-tapping
:28:54. > :29:03.and investigate the Prime Minister's policy on Europe instead.
:29:04. > :29:12.I have come to my first EU summit to see how David Cameron is getting on
:29:13. > :29:21.with his strategy to claim power was back from Brussels. Got any powers
:29:22. > :29:25.back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly, his fellow leaders were not as
:29:26. > :29:32.forthcoming. Chancellor, are you going to give any powers back to
:29:33. > :29:36.Britain? Has David Cameron asked you for any powers back? The president
:29:37. > :29:45.of the commission just laughed, and listen to the Lithuanian President.
:29:46. > :29:54.How is David Cameron's renegotiation strategy going? What's that? He
:29:55. > :29:59.wants powers back for Britain. No one knows what powers David Cameron
:30:00. > :30:07.actually wants. Even our usual allies, like Sweden, are bit
:30:08. > :30:13.baffled. We actually don't know yet what is going through the UK
:30:14. > :30:19.membership. We will await the finalisation of that first. You
:30:20. > :30:24.should ask him, and then tell us! Here is someone who must know, the
:30:25. > :30:30.Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing what we are doing, carrying out a
:30:31. > :30:35.review of the EU powers, known as competencies in the jargon, before
:30:36. > :30:38.negotiating to get some back. Have you had any negotiations with David
:30:39. > :30:45.Cameron over what powers you can bring back from Brussels? That is
:30:46. > :30:49.not on the agenda of this summit. Have you talked to him about it?
:30:50. > :30:55.This is not on the schedule for this summit.
:30:56. > :31:06.David Cameron's advises tummy it is because he is playing the long game.
:31:07. > :31:12.-- David Cameron's advisers tell me. At this summit, there was a task
:31:13. > :31:18.force discussing how to cut EU red tape. Just how long this game is was
:31:19. > :31:25.explained to me outside the summit, by the leader of the Conservatives
:31:26. > :31:28.in the European Parliament. I think the behind-the-scenes negotiations
:31:29. > :31:32.will start happening when the new commissioner is appointed later next
:31:33. > :31:37.year. I think the detailed negotiations will start to happen
:31:38. > :31:41.bubbly after the UK general election. That is when we will start
:31:42. > :31:49.getting all of the detail of the horse trading, and real, Lake night
:31:50. > :31:54.negotiations. Angela Merkel seems keen to rewrite the EU's main
:31:55. > :31:58.treaties to deal with changes in the Eurozone, and that is the mechanism
:31:59. > :32:03.David Cameron would use to renegotiate our membership. Everyone
:32:04. > :32:07.here says his relationship with the German Chancellor is strong. So
:32:08. > :32:13.after days in this building, here is how it looks. David Cameron has a
:32:14. > :32:17.mountain to climb. It is climbable, but he isn't even in the foothills
:32:18. > :32:22.yet. Has he even started packing his bags for the trip?
:32:23. > :32:30.Joining us now, a man who knows a thing or two about the difficulties
:32:31. > :32:33.Prime Minister 's face in Europe. Former Deputy Prime Minister,
:32:34. > :32:37.Michael Heseltine. We are nine months from David Cameron's defining
:32:38. > :32:44.speech on EU renegotiation. Can you think of one area of progress? I
:32:45. > :32:52.don't know. And you don't know. And that's a good thing. Why is it a
:32:53. > :33:03.good thing? Because the real progress goes on behind closed
:33:04. > :33:09.doors. And only the most naive, because the real progress goes on
:33:10. > :33:15.behind closed doors. Because, in this weary world, you and I, Andrew,
:33:16. > :33:21.know full well that the moment you say, I making progress, people say,
:33:22. > :33:27.where? And the machine goes to work to show that the progress isn't
:33:28. > :33:35.enough. So you are much better off making progress as best you can in
:33:36. > :33:41.the privacy of private diplomacy. It is a long journey ahead. In this
:33:42. > :33:46.long journey, do you have a clear sense of the destination? Do you
:33:47. > :33:51.have a clear sense of what powers Mr Cameron wants to negotiate? I have a
:33:52. > :33:57.clear sense of the destination, which is a victory for the campaign
:33:58. > :34:03.that he will win to stay inside the European community. That is the
:34:04. > :34:11.agenda, and I have total support for that. I understand that, but if he
:34:12. > :34:17.is incapable of getting any tangible sign of renegotiation, if he is able
:34:18. > :34:23.only to do what Wilson did in 1975, which was to get a couple of token
:34:24. > :34:28.changes to our membership status, he goes into that referendum without
:34:29. > :34:36.much to argue for. He has everything to argue for. He's got Britain's
:34:37. > :34:39.vital role as a major contributor to the community. He's got Britain's
:34:40. > :34:48.self interest as a major beneficiary, and Britain's vital
:34:49. > :34:52.role in the City of London. He's got everything to argue for. He could
:34:53. > :34:59.argue for that now. He could have a referendum now. He doesn't want one
:35:00. > :35:07.now. I haven't any doubt that he will come back with something to
:35:08. > :35:15.talk about. But it may be slightly different to what his critics, the
:35:16. > :35:19.UK isolationist party people, want. He may, for example, have found that
:35:20. > :35:25.allies within the community want change as well, and he may secure
:35:26. > :35:31.changes in the way the community works, which would be a significant
:35:32. > :35:37.argument within the referendum campaign. Let me give you an
:35:38. > :35:43.example. I think it is a scandal that the European Commission don't
:35:44. > :35:49.secure the auditing of some of the accounts. Perhaps that could be on
:35:50. > :35:52.the agenda. He might find a lot of contributing countries, like
:35:53. > :36:01.Germany, like Colin and, would be very keen. -- like Holland. David
:36:02. > :36:08.vetoed the increase in the European budgets the other day, and he had a
:36:09. > :36:13.lot of allies. So working within Europe on the things that people
:36:14. > :36:17.paying the European bills want is fertile ground. Is John Major right
:36:18. > :36:23.to call for a windfall tax on the energy companies? John is a very
:36:24. > :36:30.cautious fellow. He doesn't say things without thinking them out. So
:36:31. > :36:35.I was surprised that he went for a windfall tax. First of all, it is
:36:36. > :36:40.retrospective, and secondly, it is difficult to predict what the
:36:41. > :36:44.consequences will be. I am, myself, more interested in the other part of
:36:45. > :36:50.his speech, which was talking about the need for the Conservative Party
:36:51. > :36:54.to seek a wider horizon, to recognise what is happening to the
:36:55. > :37:02.Conservative Party in the way in which its membership is shrinking
:37:03. > :37:07.into a southeastern enclave. Are you in favour of a windfall tax? I am
:37:08. > :37:18.not in favour of increasing any taxes. Do you share Iain Duncan
:37:19. > :37:28.Smith's point of view on welfare reform? I think Iain Duncan Smith is
:37:29. > :37:34.right. It is extremely difficult to do, but he is right to try. I think
:37:35. > :37:44.public opinion is behind him, but it isn't easy, because on the fringe of
:37:45. > :37:49.these issues there are genuine hard luck stories, and they are the ones
:37:50. > :37:54.that become the focus of attention the moment you introduce change. It
:37:55. > :38:00.requires a lot of political skill to negotiate your way through that. But
:38:01. > :38:05.isn't Iain Duncan Smith right to invoke the beverage principle, that
:38:06. > :38:11.you should be expected to make a contribution for the welfare you
:38:12. > :38:15.depend on? Yes, he is. I will let you get your Sunday lunch. Thanks
:38:16. > :38:17.for joining us. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I
:38:18. > :38:35.will be looking Hello. What can be done to cut
:38:36. > :38:40.household energy prices? Christopher Salmon, the Police Commissioner of
:38:41. > :38:46.Dyfed-Powys, the most rural force in England and Wales, gives us his view
:38:47. > :38:55.on Plebgate. Joining me is the liberal Democrat MP and Albert Owen.
:38:56. > :39:01.Thank you for coming in. Let's begin briefly with some problems, I guess
:39:02. > :39:06.is the best way of describing it. Your government's reforms of
:39:07. > :39:13.disability living allowance. People who receive it will know that it is
:39:14. > :39:17.being changed. There are problems in rolling that out across the whole of
:39:18. > :39:24.the UK, it does not reflect well on this major policy of York
:39:25. > :39:28.government's. You run a pilot operation and you see what the
:39:29. > :39:33.problems are and you try and resolve those before rolling it out widely.
:39:34. > :39:38.There are lots of problems, are there not? The whole process is
:39:39. > :39:43.taking longer than they want. They want to make it shorter so when it
:39:44. > :39:47.is rolled out then the process is not as drawn out. For those people
:39:48. > :39:54.in the pilot areas, it can be tricky if there are issues with it. It is
:39:55. > :40:00.right to get it sorted before you roll it out nationally. Albert, this
:40:01. > :40:04.is responsible government? No, it is a flawed system and that is why we
:40:05. > :40:12.are having problems in rolling it out, and people in Wales are
:40:13. > :40:16.suffering. I know when Jenny was in opposition she was critical of the
:40:17. > :40:19.Labour government for its reforms. This government has shown that it
:40:20. > :40:26.cannot work and that is why there are delays. The government are
:40:27. > :40:34.examining problems and it will be rolled out, will it not? What
:40:35. > :40:38.conversations have you had with your constituents? There is a big issue
:40:39. > :40:42.here because we are talking about the honourable people in our
:40:43. > :40:46.society, some are disabled. There have been big problems with this. It
:40:47. > :40:55.is simple in theory to say we are going to be the same across the
:40:56. > :40:58.country but disability is different and people are worried about the
:40:59. > :41:03.Bedroom Tax. There is a lot of pressure on these people, and I
:41:04. > :41:07.think this has been rushed through and they have used the deficit
:41:08. > :41:12.reduction as a cover for this. Yes, we need to reform but we need to get
:41:13. > :41:17.people back to work in droves, and making work pay. This is a crude
:41:18. > :41:25.method to do it and that is why it has gone badly wrong. The budget for
:41:26. > :41:30.support for disabled people has not been cut at all. We are not talking
:41:31. > :41:35.about a massive deficit reduction programme. We are trying to make it
:41:36. > :41:41.fairer and reflect the difficulties just mentioned. Repercussions of the
:41:42. > :41:45.Plebgate affair have been felt across 43 police forces in England
:41:46. > :41:54.and Wales. It has dented public confidence in place. Christopher
:41:55. > :42:01.Salmon is going to open up to the public the way the force deals with
:42:02. > :42:05.complaints, to restore trust. The suggestion that police officers lied
:42:06. > :42:10.to relieve Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell of his job was probed last
:42:11. > :42:13.week. It was denied by the officers involved. The saga began more than a
:42:14. > :42:19.year ago with allegations that Andrew Mitchell calls police
:42:20. > :42:26.officers plebs after an altercation in Downing Street. The indications
:42:27. > :42:33.are being felt 200 miles away at the most rural police force in England
:42:34. > :42:38.and Wales. The whole Plebgate rout --, compensated as it seems, has
:42:39. > :42:46.asked whether the public trust the police. Dyfed-Powys Commissioner
:42:47. > :42:54.Christopher Salmon is ending his first year in the job. It is a very
:42:55. > :42:58.small number of people we're talking about here, but this is the thing
:42:59. > :43:02.about trust - when you lose it it's very corrosive, which is why I think
:43:03. > :43:05.it's so important that those of us involved in the leadership of
:43:06. > :43:09.policing to, if you like, face up to the elephant in the room and to
:43:10. > :43:13.address the problem where we see it. It's the easiest thing in the world
:43:14. > :43:18.to say, it's all fine in my patch, it's OK, and I think in 99.9% of the
:43:19. > :43:22.time that is true, but where there is a problem we have a duty to stand
:43:23. > :43:24.up and say we're going to deal with this. The handling of phone hacking
:43:25. > :43:28.and the Hillsborough disaster have raised concerns about police
:43:29. > :43:31.integrity. Home Secretary Theresa May is introducing a new code for
:43:32. > :43:38.officers and increasing the Independent Police Complaints
:43:39. > :43:41.Commission's powers to investigate the most serious complaints.
:43:42. > :43:47.Christopher Salmon wants to open up to the public so people can see they
:43:48. > :43:52.are dealt with fairly. We want to stop cases becoming serious and nip
:43:53. > :43:56.them in the bud. That is, I think we can do. We can introduce greater
:43:57. > :44:01.independence at the local level and there are models around the country
:44:02. > :44:08.where they are trying different ways of doing this. In haven and some are
:44:09. > :44:11.set there is a residence panel. There is a different model in
:44:12. > :44:15.Wiltshire and one in greater Manchester, and I am going to be the
:44:16. > :44:23.best magpie I can and steal the ideas, where I can, for Dyfed-Powys.
:44:24. > :44:27.In California, police routinely on video cameras to record dealings
:44:28. > :44:35.with the public. This is giving me the view of everything I see. It has
:44:36. > :44:40.cut complaints by 90%, and in incidents where officers used force,
:44:41. > :44:45.by 60%. Hampshire police have introduced cameras to 450 offices.
:44:46. > :44:51.Widespread trials across England and Wales are planned. They are backed
:44:52. > :44:55.by Conservative MP and special constable David Davis who is keen to
:44:56. > :45:03.emphasise the strengths of British policing. It is incumbent for all
:45:04. > :45:09.police officers to behave. I know what a great job they do, generally,
:45:10. > :45:12.and on this occasion, a small number have let down the grid image that
:45:13. > :45:18.the police have. Across the rest of the world, which is policing has a
:45:19. > :45:23.good reputation, and I think we are the best police force in the world.
:45:24. > :45:31.I am proud that we do not carry firearms. This view is endorsed by
:45:32. > :45:40.this MP who is taking evidence on the Plebgate affair. There have been
:45:41. > :45:45.excellent results in Wales. Crime has gone down by 25% in some areas
:45:46. > :45:48.and we have done an excellent job. Incidents like this distract from
:45:49. > :45:53.the good work that the police are doing. In difficult times, the
:45:54. > :45:59.police are doing an excellent job with limited funds. I trust them.
:46:00. > :46:07.The crime figure is the lowest recorded figure since surveys began
:46:08. > :46:11.in 1981. Following Plebgate, one in four people told a survey that they
:46:12. > :46:16.were less likely to trust the police. It is an irony that doubts
:46:17. > :46:19.about the integrity of officers are there when according to the
:46:20. > :46:25.statistics they are having their best results in fighting crime for a
:46:26. > :46:30.generation. The point made by Adrian is that crime levels seem to be low
:46:31. > :46:39.but faith or trust in the police is not what it was. How do you match up
:46:40. > :46:47.the two? These issues with Hillsborough are just now coming to
:46:48. > :46:55.light, and Plebgate has damaged that reputation. Community policing is
:46:56. > :47:00.very good but these incidents reflect very badly. I think it is a
:47:01. > :47:04.good idea to have more independence at an early stage because many
:47:05. > :47:07.complaints that I have handled on behalf of constituents have been
:47:08. > :47:11.internal, and the police have investigated them themselves, and
:47:12. > :47:18.people are not satisfied with the conclusions. One good thing I think
:47:19. > :47:23.they can do is enable that to happen. Jenny, there has been much
:47:24. > :47:30.debate with the future of the PCC, where do they stand with this?
:47:31. > :47:33.Should they remain? I do not know they should carry on how they are.
:47:34. > :47:44.The current situation is not working, and the IPCC needs more
:47:45. > :47:49.resources and more people. Christopher Salmon said more public
:47:50. > :47:53.should be involved with greater transparency, and at the moment is
:47:54. > :48:01.the police investigate themselves in bigger cases. I think we need a
:48:02. > :48:05.really good independent investigation so people can have
:48:06. > :48:09.faith in Nat. Having trust in the police is absolutely crucial, and it
:48:10. > :48:14.is only a small number of people who are tarnishing the reputation of the
:48:15. > :48:18.overwhelming majority of the police who are completely honest. We need
:48:19. > :48:22.to make sure that that trust carries on and we need to make sure there is
:48:23. > :48:27.an independent body to make sure people believe what they are seeing.
:48:28. > :48:35.There were a few ideas in Haven's package there. One way to protect
:48:36. > :48:42.the police might be a camera being worn by the police. What you make of
:48:43. > :48:45.that? I think they are doing that in big demonstrations and marches in
:48:46. > :48:51.our large towns and cities. Yes, let's be more open. We should not
:48:52. > :48:56.have cover ups because that is what damages the reputation of the
:48:57. > :48:59.police. It is the cover up afterwards. I do agree with what the
:49:00. > :49:03.Police Commissioner said. The more involvement from the public, the
:49:04. > :49:09.better. The more we see what is happening, the better. There is more
:49:10. > :49:14.surveillance, and people were wary of that but I think it has proved to
:49:15. > :49:21.be a good thing. It protects the police as well, not just the public.
:49:22. > :49:26.In terms of the politics of this, Andrew Mitchell was painted as the
:49:27. > :49:30.baddie at the beginning of this. Not so much now, there seems to be
:49:31. > :49:36.support from all four corners of the House. What he did was wrong, he
:49:37. > :49:40.admitted he lost his temper with the police. He has admitted that and
:49:41. > :49:47.said sorry. It looks as though the police have tried to construe a
:49:48. > :49:50.story, and they should apologise. This senior officers have apologised
:49:51. > :49:54.and so should the individual members of the police. Wipe the slate clean
:49:55. > :49:58.and move forward. This is a good idea either Police Commissioner to
:49:59. > :50:07.get more people involved. The IPCC should be left to deal with the most
:50:08. > :50:12.serious crimes. The ones at the lower levels should be dealt with by
:50:13. > :50:15.the police. Domestic energy prices are dominating the political agenda
:50:16. > :50:19.at the moment with politicians having their say. This week we will
:50:20. > :50:23.get the chance to hear from energy providers when representatives from
:50:24. > :50:31.the big energy companies appear before the energy select committee.
:50:32. > :50:38.The intervention of John Major sent tempers rising at Prime Minister 's
:50:39. > :50:43.questions. There is a crisis in energy and many people are worried.
:50:44. > :50:49.It is way beyond anything I think is acceptable. There were a number of
:50:50. > :50:53.ideas that show Ed Miliband is in the right place, but I do not think
:50:54. > :50:57.it is a workable opposition. Without some action, if we have a hard
:50:58. > :51:01.winter, there will be many people who will have to choose between
:51:02. > :51:05.keeping warm and eating. I do not think that is acceptable so I think
:51:06. > :51:09.there is a real chance this winter that the government will be forced
:51:10. > :51:13.to provide more assistance to people who are facing real difficulties. If
:51:14. > :51:17.that proves to be the case then I think it will be entirely reasonable
:51:18. > :51:22.for the Chancellor to recoup that money back from the energy companies
:51:23. > :51:27.in a one off fee, given the scale of their fees and the unjustified
:51:28. > :51:40.nature of the increases they have proposed. A windfall tax? Yes. It
:51:41. > :51:43.will be imposed retrospectively. The Prime Minister said that anyone who
:51:44. > :51:48.wants to intervene directly in energy markets was living in a
:51:49. > :51:55.Marxist universe. Can he tell the house how he feels now that the red
:51:56. > :52:05.peril has claimed for John Major? We are intervening! I am not surprised
:52:06. > :52:08.that he wants to quote the last Conservative Prime Minister and also
:52:09. > :52:13.forget the mess that the people in between made of art country. The
:52:14. > :52:17.former Prime Minister says that given the scale of profits, we
:52:18. > :52:23.should recoup that money. He wants to do it through a windfall tax. I
:52:24. > :52:26.say we need a price freeze. What does the Prime Minister wants to do
:52:27. > :52:32.to recoup that money for the consumer? Let me answer the
:52:33. > :52:39.question. We need to roll back some of the green regulations and
:52:40. > :52:50.charges! Yes, yes! We all know who put them in place. Jenny, that was
:52:51. > :52:53.David Cameron telling Ed Miliband about green levies. He wants to roll
:52:54. > :52:59.them back much to the consternation of your Liberal Democrat colleagues
:53:00. > :53:08.and the Deputy Prime Minister. What is your take? I think it is
:53:09. > :53:12.short-sighted. I do not know where the money should come from. We have
:53:13. > :53:16.to invest in low carbon technologies or we will end up with increasing
:53:17. > :53:23.dependence on fossil fuels, and they are running out. We need to take the
:53:24. > :53:28.long view and these things take a long time to set up. We need is to
:53:29. > :53:32.reduce the amount of carbon we are producing. Whether that is view
:53:33. > :53:37.levies on bills or other ways using taxation, I do not have a clear
:53:38. > :53:41.view, but I do think we need to make sure we are investing in that for
:53:42. > :53:46.the future. I assume you were in the Commons on Wednesday. What did you
:53:47. > :53:52.think about the Prime Minister? I was surprised. We can look at these
:53:53. > :53:56.things but I do not think we should roll back levies and I think it will
:53:57. > :54:00.be short-sighted for the future. Albert, you will be on the select
:54:01. > :54:05.committee and will have the opportunity to put the questions to
:54:06. > :54:10.the top six this week. What is the first question you want to ask? Why
:54:11. > :54:16.this is becoming a trend. The price of gas has spiked in the past and we
:54:17. > :54:21.have accepted that is the case. But not year-on-year. Going back to what
:54:22. > :54:28.John Major has said, David Cameron is behind this. 18 months ago he had
:54:29. > :54:38.a summit in Downing Street, he was only there for a few minutes, and he
:54:39. > :54:43.said he had sorted it out. They are going to put up a medium tariff and
:54:44. > :54:50.everybody will get that. We need to ask why year-on-year there will be a
:54:51. > :54:56.rise. If you put it into context, the green levies we pay our 9% of
:54:57. > :55:00.the total bill. Only 2% are green levies of that 9%. The rest are
:55:01. > :55:03.social levies which I think people will agree we need to help the most
:55:04. > :55:08.honourable heat their homes in winter. This year on year rise is
:55:09. > :55:13.hurting people in Wales and across the country. We pay more for
:55:14. > :55:20.electricity in Wales and many other regions in the UK. We produce an
:55:21. > :55:24.awful lot of it. It is an unfair system. That is why Ed Miliband has
:55:25. > :55:30.called for a reform of the market, a market which is not working. There
:55:31. > :55:35.is a suggestion, is there not, from the Conservatives and possibly from
:55:36. > :55:41.the Liberal Democrats, that this idea of freezing prices will lead to
:55:42. > :55:46.prices going up before the next general election? Do you want to ask
:55:47. > :56:00.the energy companies about this? We will ask them. They have put it up
:56:01. > :56:07.in the last years. What is important... Ed Miliband introduced
:56:08. > :56:11.a lot of the levies, didn't he? He is making things up on the hoof, but
:56:12. > :56:18.to answer your question, we will be asking that, what Ed Miliband did
:56:19. > :56:24.say is that reforming the markets, which governments can do, and then
:56:25. > :56:32.freeze for small businesses and domestic users, that way businesses
:56:33. > :56:35.will not be hammered by the rise in petrol costs. It is nonsense to say
:56:36. > :56:41.that the government is not reforming the energy markets. The biggest
:56:42. > :56:46.reform that has happened in decades is going through at the moment. The
:56:47. > :56:51.idea that you can freeze energy bills and that will solve it is a
:56:52. > :56:59.total con. Parliamentary language for you there! I am not in
:57:00. > :57:07.Parliament! If they think Labour is going to come in and hike prices
:57:08. > :57:11.up... They are doing it now! What do people think is going to happen to
:57:12. > :57:20.bills once the 20 month period is over? We need to tackle this in an
:57:21. > :57:26.holistic way. The government has invested in the Green Deal, and that
:57:27. > :57:30.will make a big difference in small-scale renewables so people are
:57:31. > :57:43.investing in their own energy. We need to overhaul the old boilers we
:57:44. > :57:48.have and so people will use less. What is the one message you want
:57:49. > :57:52.from the big six this week? We need to make sure they are not ripping
:57:53. > :57:58.off consumers, and a lot of that is around the competitive is of the
:57:59. > :58:02.market. -- competitiveness. They have minute related the money we
:58:03. > :58:05.have and we need to make sure people get a fair deal. Just saying we are
:58:06. > :58:10.going to freeze it is not the way forward. Time for a quick look back
:58:11. > :58:24.at some of the political stories in the week. Some businesses that were
:58:25. > :58:29.mis-sold financial products were going bust while they waited for
:58:30. > :58:32.compensation. It was said that only 32 of the 40,000 businesses affected
:58:33. > :58:38.had been compensated so far. First Minister backed plans to limit
:58:39. > :58:45.nonurgent operations at four hospitals in mid Wales this winter.
:58:46. > :58:52.One MP said that between April and November it would not conduct
:58:53. > :58:54.surgery is. Alan Davies was criticised for giving evasive
:58:55. > :58:59.answers to the environment committee. They said he gave
:59:00. > :59:02.contradictory information and criticised his department for
:59:03. > :59:08.financial mismanagement. The Welsh government said the issues were
:59:09. > :59:11.flawed and inaccurate. The Conservative leader said there
:59:12. > :59:15.should be shorter holidays and hold an extra meeting each week to make
:59:16. > :59:34.proceedings more relevant to the public. Jenny, what is your view? I
:59:35. > :59:39.have had a number of constituents affected by the mis-selling, it is a
:59:40. > :59:44.total scandal. It was a good debate on Thursday, and I hope it is on the
:59:45. > :59:49.government's agenda. MPs in the House on Thursday. They were
:59:50. > :59:53.suggesting that assembly members should squeeze in another session on
:59:54. > :59:59.Thursday and have fewer holidays. What do you think about this idea? I
:00:00. > :00:05.think there might be a case for sitting on Thursday. The reality is
:00:06. > :00:10.that most elected members work outside of what they do in the
:00:11. > :00:15.Chamber as well, and I think that needs recognising. It is a matter
:00:16. > :00:19.for them but, yes, I think they need to extend the working week, and as
:00:20. > :00:26.for holidays, that is a matter for them. I'd take the same holidays as
:00:27. > :00:33.my staff do. I do not have many Sundays. What do you think, Jenny? I
:00:34. > :00:35.think it is fair. I think people need to believe that their
:00:36. > :00:41.politicians are working hard for them. There is an awful lot going on
:00:42. > :00:51.in the Assembly and Parliament that is not what you see on TV. There is
:00:52. > :00:59.a long summer recess, that is the perception. Absolutely! In terms of
:01:00. > :01:05.the kind of work you are doing when you are not in Parliament?
:01:06. > :01:11.Casework. You are happy to defend your record? Absolutely, absolutely.
:01:12. > :01:17.It is important that elected politicians have enough time to talk
:01:18. > :01:18.to their constituents and talk to businesses within their local area
:01:19. > :01:19.so they are well informed businesses within their local area
:01:20. > :01:21.so they are well informed businesses within their local area
:01:22. > :01:32.free school area for into that category. Thank you.
:01:33. > :01:33.Is Labour about to drop its support category. Thank you.
:01:34. > :01:37.Is Labour about to drop its support for High Speed 2, a rail line the
:01:38. > :01:48.party approved while in government? for High Speed 2, a rail line the
:01:49. > :02:01.these green shoots? These are all questions for The Week Ahead.
:02:02. > :02:05.So, HS2. Miss Flint wouldn't answer the question. She's in northern MP
:02:06. > :02:10.too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the Millennium Dome.
:02:11. > :02:15.too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the minute's silence for HS2? It will
:02:16. > :02:20.not be quite as crude as that. They will not stand up and say, we
:02:21. > :02:20.not be quite as crude as that. They senior Labour person said to me it
:02:21. > :02:23.would be a bit senior Labour person said to me it
:02:24. > :02:29.that Gordon Brown and Ed Balls set for the euro back in 97. They will
:02:30. > :02:33.be chucking lots of questions into the air, and the questions will
:02:34. > :02:40.create doubt, and will create the grounds for Labour to say, at some
:02:41. > :02:44.point, we think there is a much much better way of spending the money. It
:02:45. > :02:51.isn't ?42 billion, because that includes a contingency. Let's see
:02:52. > :02:58.what Peter Mandelson had to say about HS2. He was in the government
:02:59. > :03:03.when Labour supported it. Frankly, there was too much of the argument
:03:04. > :03:09.that if everyone else has got a high-speed train, we should have won
:03:10. > :03:15.too. Regardless of need, regardless of cost, and regardless of
:03:16. > :03:20.alternatives. As a party, to be frank, we didn't feel like being
:03:21. > :03:27.trumped by the zeal of the then opposition's support for the
:03:28. > :03:32.high-speed train. We wanted, if anything, to upstage them. So they
:03:33. > :03:39.didn't really need it, and we're only talking about ?50 billion. Why
:03:40. > :03:43.would you take a decision involving ?50 billion in a serious way? For
:03:44. > :03:49.David Cameron, if it becomes clear Labour is against it, he cannot
:03:50. > :03:53.proceed. He indicated last week that he wouldn't proceed if the certainty
:03:54. > :03:58.wasn't there. For Labour, HS2 is really a debate about the deficit by
:03:59. > :04:02.proxy. They think that if you don't go ahead with HS2, that releases
:04:03. > :04:07.tens of billions of pounds to spend on other things, such as public
:04:08. > :04:29.services, without going into boring. I don't think that works because
:04:30. > :04:31.there was a difference between cancelling something that already
:04:32. > :04:34.exists to pay for something else, and cancelling something that does
:04:35. > :04:36.not yet exist and will be paid for over decades to pay for something
:04:37. > :04:40.here and now. Can Labour do this? I know that the line will be, we are
:04:41. > :04:42.not going to build this railway because we are going to build
:04:43. > :04:44.200,000 houses a year. Can they do this without political cost? I think
:04:45. > :04:49.there will be political costs, but they will play this card of we have
:04:50. > :04:54.changed our mind. I think Cameron's line has been very clever, saying we
:04:55. > :04:59.cannot do it without labour. You can put it in two ways. Sorry, we cannot
:05:00. > :05:04.go ahead with it, but Labour has ruined your chance of prosperity, or
:05:05. > :05:10.they can tie themselves to it, and then Labour cannot attack it on
:05:11. > :05:16.great grounds when costs do spire. You can write Labour's script right
:05:17. > :05:23.now. They can say, if we were in charge, the financial management
:05:24. > :05:28.would be much better. This raises some really important questions for
:05:29. > :05:34.the government. They have utterly failed to make the case for HS2.
:05:35. > :05:38.There is a real case to make. Between London and Birmingham it is
:05:39. > :05:43.about capacity not speed. North of Birmingham, it is about
:05:44. > :05:47.connectivity. It is a simple case to make, but it is only in the last
:05:48. > :05:51.month that they have been making that case. It shows really terrible
:05:52. > :05:59.complacency in the coalition that they haven't done that. We'll HS2
:06:00. > :06:03.happen or not? I think it will. For the reasons that Nick outlined,
:06:04. > :06:12.there is not of a constituency for it amongst Northern areas. -- there
:06:13. > :06:18.is enough of a constituency for it. There is private investment as well.
:06:19. > :06:25.It isn't like Heathrow. I say no, because I think Labour will drop
:06:26. > :06:28.their support for it. Caroline Flint said she was in favour of the
:06:29. > :06:34.concept of trains generally, but will it go further than that? It is
:06:35. > :06:39.difficult to see how it will go ahead if Labour will not support it
:06:40. > :06:47.after setting five tests that it clearly will not meet. Some will
:06:48. > :06:52.breathe a sigh of relief. Some will say, even in the 20th century, we
:06:53. > :06:58.cannot build a proper rail network. The economy was another big story of
:06:59. > :07:02.the week. We had those GDP figures. There is a video the Tories are
:07:03. > :07:07.releasing. The world premiere is going to be here. Where's the red
:07:08. > :07:11.carpet? It gives an indication of how the Tories will hand Mr Miliband
:07:12. > :07:45.and labour in the run-up to the election. Let's have a look at it.
:07:46. > :07:50.These graphics are even worse than the ones we use on our show! How on
:07:51. > :08:00.earth would you expect that to go viral? It did have a strange feel
:08:01. > :08:04.about it. It doesn't understand the Internet at all. Who is going to
:08:05. > :08:16.read those little screens between it? Put a dog in it! However,
:08:17. > :08:21.putting that aside, I have no idea that that is going to go viral. The
:08:22. > :08:27.Tories are now operating - and I say Tories rather than the coalition -
:08:28. > :08:32.on the assumption that the economy is improving and will continue to
:08:33. > :08:37.improve, and that that will become more obvious as 2014 goes on. We
:08:38. > :08:44.just saw their how they will fight the campaign. Yes, and at the
:08:45. > :08:48.crucial moment, you will reach the point where wages. To rise at a
:08:49. > :08:53.faster pace than inflation, and then people will start to, in the words
:08:54. > :08:58.of Harold Macmillan, feel that they have never had it so good. That is
:08:59. > :09:06.the key moment. If the economy is growing, there is a rule of thumb
:09:07. > :09:09.that the government should get a benefit. But it doesn't always work
:09:10. > :09:13.like that. The fundamental point here is that Ed Miliband has had a
:09:14. > :09:18.great month. He has totally set the agenda. He has set the agenda with
:09:19. > :09:23.something - freezing energy prices - that may not work. That video shows
:09:24. > :09:26.that the Conservatives want to get the debate back to the
:09:27. > :09:34.fundamentals. That this is a party that told us for three years that
:09:35. > :09:39.this coalition was telling us to -- was taking us to hell on a handcart.
:09:40. > :09:46.That doesn't seem to have happened. The energy price was a very clever
:09:47. > :09:50.thing, at the party conference season, which now seems years ago.
:09:51. > :09:57.They saw that the recovery was going to happen, so they changed the
:09:58. > :10:01.debate to living standards. Some economists are now privately
:10:02. > :10:06.expecting growth to be 3% next year, which was inconceivable for five
:10:07. > :10:08.months ago. If growth is 3% next year, living standards will start to
:10:09. > :10:15.rise again. Where does Labour go then? I would go further, and say
:10:16. > :10:20.that even though Ed Miliband has made a small political victory on
:10:21. > :10:26.living standards, it hasn't registered in the polls. Those polls
:10:27. > :10:30.have been contracted since April -- have been contracting since April.
:10:31. > :10:35.That macro economic story matters more than the issue of living
:10:36. > :10:39.standards. The interesting thing about the recovery is it confounds
:10:40. > :10:45.everybody. No one was predicting, not the Treasury, not the media, not
:10:46. > :10:52.the IMF, not the academics, and the only people I can think of... I fit
:10:53. > :10:58.-- I thought they knew everything! The only people I know who did are
:10:59. > :11:01.one adviser who is very close to George Osborne, and the clever hedge
:11:02. > :11:06.fund is who were buying British equities back in January. Because
:11:07. > :11:10.the Treasury's record is so appalling, no one believe them, but
:11:11. > :11:16.they were saying around February, March this year, that by the end of
:11:17. > :11:24.the summer, the recovery would be gathering momentum. For once, they
:11:25. > :11:28.turned out to be right! They said that the economy would be going gang
:11:29. > :11:35.bust is! Where did the new Tory voters come from? I agree, if the
:11:36. > :11:44.economic recovery continues, the coalition will be stronger. But
:11:45. > :11:48.where will they get new voters from? For people who sign up to help to
:11:49. > :11:52.buy, they will be locked into nice mortgages at a low interest rate,
:11:53. > :11:58.and just as you go into a general election, if you are getting 3%
:11:59. > :12:01.growth and unemployment is down, the Bank of England will have to review
:12:02. > :12:06.their interest rates. People who are getting nice interest rates now may
:12:07. > :12:13.find that it is not like that in a few months time. The point John
:12:14. > :12:17.Major was making implicitly was that Mrs Thatcher could speak to people
:12:18. > :12:22.on low incomes. John Major could not speak to them -- John Major could
:12:23. > :12:26.speak to them. But this coalition cannot speak to them. This idea
:12:27. > :12:34.about the reshuffle was that David Cameron wanted more Northern voices,
:12:35. > :12:39.more women, to make it look like it was not a party of seven men. When
:12:40. > :12:44.David Cameron became leader, John Major said, I do not speak very
:12:45. > :12:48.often, but when I do, I will help you, because I think you are good
:12:49. > :12:53.thing and I do not want to be like Margaret Thatcher. But that speech
:12:54. > :12:57.was clearly a lament for the party he believed that David Cameron was
:12:58. > :13:03.going to lead and create, but that isn't happening. And energy prices
:13:04. > :13:08.continue into this coming week. We have the companies going before a
:13:09. > :13:12.select committee. My information is they are sending along the secondary
:13:13. > :13:17.division, not the boss. How can they get along -- get away with that? I
:13:18. > :13:22.got the letter through from British Gas this week explaining why my
:13:23. > :13:26.bills are going up, and at no point since this became a story have any
:13:27. > :13:31.of the big companies handled it well. I will have to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:38.Make sure you pay your bill! That's it for today. The Daily Politics is
:13:39. > :13:45.back on BBC Two tomorrow. I will be back here on BBC One next Sunday.
:13:46. > :13:52.Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.