:00:40. > :00:53.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:54. > :00:58.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:59. > :01:02.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:03. > :01:07.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:08. > :01:12.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:13. > :01:17.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:18. > :01:18.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:19. > :01:26.Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones should be covered up.
:01:27. > :01:29.Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones says a referendum to devolve powers
:01:30. > :01:33.over income tax can't happen unti the Treasury reforms the way it
:01:34. > :01:34.funds the UK nations and regions. Just
:01:35. > :01:39.authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a
:01:40. > :01:48.GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.
:01:49. > :01:53.With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen
:01:54. > :01:56.Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their
:01:57. > :02:01.humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the
:02:02. > :02:07.programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is
:02:08. > :02:10.there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded
:02:11. > :02:15.what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by
:02:16. > :02:19.three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did
:02:20. > :02:23.or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike
:02:24. > :02:28.through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and
:02:29. > :02:34.inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of
:02:35. > :02:36.misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints
:02:37. > :02:42.Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about
:02:43. > :02:48.Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high
:02:49. > :02:53.dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some
:02:54. > :02:55.time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and
:02:56. > :03:02.technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an
:03:03. > :03:07.enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to
:03:08. > :03:10.stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the
:03:11. > :03:18.incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would
:03:19. > :03:24.sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It
:03:25. > :03:29.is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are
:03:30. > :03:32.still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside
:03:33. > :03:38.Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.
:03:39. > :03:42.The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so
:03:43. > :03:49.we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police
:03:50. > :03:55.Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a
:03:56. > :03:59.police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a
:04:00. > :04:03.Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation
:04:04. > :04:08.will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed
:04:09. > :04:16.Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in
:04:17. > :04:19.2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday
:04:20. > :04:23.Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging
:04:24. > :04:30.to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of
:04:31. > :04:35.coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the
:04:36. > :04:40.enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General
:04:41. > :04:46.Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up
:04:47. > :04:50.with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.
:04:51. > :04:54.Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union
:04:55. > :04:59.headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq
:05:00. > :05:02.tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an
:05:03. > :05:10.inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were
:05:11. > :05:17.called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But
:05:18. > :05:21.turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the
:05:22. > :05:26.centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS
:05:27. > :05:31.launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company
:05:32. > :05:36.time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That
:05:37. > :05:42.candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans
:05:43. > :05:53.resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic
:05:54. > :05:59.climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to
:06:00. > :06:07.the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk
:06:08. > :06:11.vote rigging. Forgery, coercion, trickery, manipulation. You must be
:06:12. > :06:19.ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article
:06:20. > :06:24.is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all
:06:25. > :06:29.dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those
:06:30. > :06:34.allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the
:06:35. > :06:39.Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no
:06:40. > :06:44.wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the
:06:45. > :06:49.investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to
:06:50. > :06:55.get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the
:06:56. > :07:00.dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply
:07:01. > :07:06.flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to
:07:07. > :07:09.do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got
:07:10. > :07:15.to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no
:07:16. > :07:20.wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done
:07:21. > :07:25.nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to
:07:26. > :07:28.conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally
:07:29. > :07:33.complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because
:07:34. > :07:40.Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie
:07:41. > :07:45.Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into
:07:46. > :07:53.the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They
:07:54. > :07:59.showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview
:08:00. > :08:04.would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question
:08:05. > :08:12.that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR
:08:13. > :08:17.company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter
:08:18. > :08:22.is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there
:08:23. > :08:27.was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten
:08:28. > :08:32.and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are
:08:33. > :08:41.a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny
:08:42. > :08:47.that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it
:08:48. > :08:51.completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness
:08:52. > :08:59.statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing
:09:00. > :09:04.the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to
:09:05. > :09:14.answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.
:09:15. > :09:18.So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent
:09:19. > :09:24.family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic
:09:25. > :09:31.solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a
:09:32. > :09:37.cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a
:09:38. > :09:43.trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the
:09:44. > :09:48.demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative
:09:49. > :09:56.mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband
:09:57. > :10:00.should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an
:10:01. > :10:09.industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This
:10:10. > :10:17.is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe
:10:18. > :10:21.if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,
:10:22. > :10:28.they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and
:10:29. > :10:36.not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be
:10:37. > :10:40.silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with
:10:41. > :10:48.a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.
:10:49. > :10:54.No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged
:10:55. > :11:05.passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at
:11:06. > :11:09.the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to
:11:10. > :11:15.be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject
:11:16. > :11:19.totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.
:11:20. > :11:27.That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these
:11:28. > :11:34.tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,
:11:35. > :11:39.but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour
:11:40. > :11:44.laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that
:11:45. > :11:50.we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is
:11:51. > :11:56.happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen
:11:57. > :12:01.elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You
:12:02. > :12:06.were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to
:12:07. > :12:15.take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing
:12:16. > :12:24.to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's
:12:25. > :12:30.see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig
:12:31. > :12:37.out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has
:12:38. > :12:41.tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour
:12:42. > :12:46.Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we
:12:47. > :12:53.started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and
:12:54. > :12:57.howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,
:12:58. > :13:03.your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to
:13:04. > :13:06.moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the
:13:07. > :13:13.investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never
:13:14. > :13:22.said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to
:13:23. > :13:28.a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring
:13:29. > :13:32.it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not
:13:33. > :13:38.believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You
:13:39. > :13:45.carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a
:13:46. > :13:49.work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because
:13:50. > :13:54.the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because
:13:55. > :14:00.Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our
:14:01. > :14:07.members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end
:14:08. > :14:12.you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important
:14:13. > :14:18.industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.
:14:19. > :14:25.Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There
:14:26. > :14:29.is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day
:14:30. > :14:36.and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory
:14:37. > :14:40.democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to
:14:41. > :14:47.express to management their concerns and their views. That is what
:14:48. > :14:52.happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of
:14:53. > :14:57.Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack
:14:58. > :15:02.Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what
:15:03. > :15:08.their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the
:15:09. > :15:15.matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our
:15:16. > :15:19.members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop
:15:20. > :15:24.stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to
:15:25. > :15:28.shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.
:15:29. > :15:36.You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike
:15:37. > :15:41.rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we
:15:42. > :15:46.are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The
:15:47. > :15:51.Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken
:15:52. > :15:58.to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,
:15:59. > :16:03.Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop
:16:04. > :16:08.stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make
:16:09. > :16:12.a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we
:16:13. > :16:17.stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we
:16:18. > :16:23.will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us. Is
:16:24. > :16:36.your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur
:16:37. > :16:41.Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am
:16:42. > :16:45.accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they
:16:46. > :16:49.will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with
:16:50. > :16:53.them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the
:16:54. > :17:07.disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.
:17:08. > :17:10."A country ready to welcome your investment which values your
:17:11. > :17:12.friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,
:17:13. > :17:15.religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the
:17:16. > :17:18.World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in
:17:19. > :17:21.London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by
:17:22. > :17:24.British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's
:17:25. > :17:27.been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to
:17:28. > :17:30.women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a
:17:31. > :17:32.moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim
:17:33. > :17:43.Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The
:17:44. > :17:47.call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links
:17:48. > :17:53.with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst
:17:54. > :17:58.British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither
:17:59. > :18:02.helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are
:18:03. > :18:06.so many different sects, traditions, cultures and
:18:07. > :18:10.nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim
:18:11. > :18:14.communities, but there is one question being put to them - are
:18:15. > :18:24.they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues? Are
:18:25. > :18:28.they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to
:18:29. > :18:33.non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful
:18:34. > :18:41.way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de
:18:42. > :18:47.has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject
:18:48. > :18:51.extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community
:18:52. > :19:02.work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are
:19:03. > :19:12.failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one
:19:13. > :19:15.figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private
:19:16. > :19:21.something very different is being said and the messages are being
:19:22. > :19:28.confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space
:19:29. > :19:35.where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim
:19:36. > :19:39.youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular
:19:40. > :19:43.society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran
:19:44. > :19:55.are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't
:19:56. > :19:58.make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating
:19:59. > :20:01.obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of
:20:02. > :20:09.those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices
:20:10. > :20:13.like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example, or
:20:14. > :20:18.discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear
:20:19. > :20:26.that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,
:20:27. > :20:31.narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue
:20:32. > :20:40.often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of
:20:41. > :20:56.Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people
:20:57. > :21:07.don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach
:21:08. > :21:11.that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that
:21:12. > :21:16.should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on
:21:17. > :21:20.their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for
:21:21. > :21:26.holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of
:21:27. > :21:30.abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one
:21:31. > :21:37.man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of
:21:38. > :21:43.Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if
:21:44. > :21:50.things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast
:21:51. > :21:54.to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your
:21:55. > :22:01.sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off
:22:02. > :22:07.with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all
:22:08. > :22:13.in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual
:22:14. > :22:17.interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and
:22:18. > :22:21.indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the
:22:22. > :22:28.Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very
:22:29. > :22:36.few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very
:22:37. > :22:38.the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital
:22:39. > :22:42.mutilation and forced marriages, what about the women who are getting
:22:43. > :22:47.married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being
:22:48. > :22:51.left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there
:22:52. > :22:55.are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against
:22:56. > :22:59.women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold
:23:00. > :23:06.misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press
:23:07. > :23:12.release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.
:23:13. > :23:15.That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam
:23:16. > :23:21.phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the
:23:22. > :23:29.communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between
:23:30. > :23:32.the two. And the Secretary General of the
:23:33. > :23:36.Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible
:23:37. > :23:45.sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do
:23:46. > :23:55.you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?
:23:56. > :23:59.The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that
:24:00. > :24:05.those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream
:24:06. > :24:15.society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are
:24:16. > :24:19.working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a
:24:20. > :24:24.faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies
:24:25. > :24:29.to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,
:24:30. > :24:39.isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you
:24:40. > :24:44.look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very
:24:45. > :24:55.successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public
:24:56. > :25:01.arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a
:25:02. > :25:07.very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a
:25:08. > :25:12.requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is
:25:13. > :25:18.wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion
:25:19. > :25:25.women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear
:25:26. > :25:29.the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of
:25:30. > :25:34.individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve
:25:35. > :25:38.of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have
:25:39. > :25:43.the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you
:25:44. > :25:49.think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in
:25:50. > :25:53.this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male
:25:54. > :25:58.relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is
:25:59. > :26:06.wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in
:26:07. > :26:13.a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what
:26:14. > :26:18.is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I
:26:19. > :26:22.want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,
:26:23. > :26:29.and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight
:26:30. > :26:34.route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear
:26:35. > :26:42.condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim
:26:43. > :26:48.women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The
:26:49. > :26:51.Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from
:26:52. > :26:57.across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,
:26:58. > :27:03.those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to
:27:04. > :27:08.represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the
:27:09. > :27:12.Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the
:27:13. > :27:26.Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a
:27:27. > :27:36.black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure
:27:37. > :27:44.exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that
:27:45. > :27:50.girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I
:27:51. > :28:02.don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired
:28:03. > :28:07.dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it
:28:08. > :28:14.at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send
:28:15. > :28:27.your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?
:28:28. > :28:31.Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate
:28:32. > :28:38.young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It
:28:39. > :28:47.is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith
:28:48. > :28:50.schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a
:28:51. > :28:57.traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in
:28:58. > :29:04.the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds
:29:05. > :29:11.wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful
:29:12. > :29:19.career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women
:29:20. > :29:21.who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative
:29:22. > :29:34.movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly
:29:35. > :29:42.based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent
:29:43. > :29:45.judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her
:29:46. > :29:49.home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without
:29:50. > :29:56.need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the
:29:57. > :29:59.whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home
:30:00. > :30:13.as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women
:30:14. > :30:17.who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending
:30:18. > :30:38.women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you
:30:39. > :30:43.another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been
:30:44. > :30:50.picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and
:30:51. > :30:57.in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we
:30:58. > :31:04.speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at
:31:05. > :31:08.all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these
:31:09. > :31:26.mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications
:31:27. > :31:31.from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries
:31:32. > :31:37.abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women
:31:38. > :31:43.now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you
:31:44. > :31:48.ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad
:31:49. > :31:53.organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a
:31:54. > :32:02.community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to
:32:03. > :32:09.them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be
:32:10. > :32:16.certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their
:32:17. > :32:26.choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like
:32:27. > :32:35.that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create
:32:36. > :32:40.that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?
:32:41. > :32:46.If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for
:32:47. > :32:52.women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community
:32:53. > :33:00.began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did
:33:01. > :33:08.you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our
:33:09. > :33:16.practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of
:33:17. > :33:23.this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between
:33:24. > :33:27.Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known
:33:28. > :33:51.picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I
:33:52. > :33:59.disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in
:34:00. > :34:05.any society of the world, and they have historically lived as
:34:06. > :34:11.minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from
:34:12. > :34:18.that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The
:34:19. > :34:22.requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are
:34:23. > :34:27.bound by the Charity commission's rules and regulations. We only
:34:28. > :34:35.accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of
:34:36. > :34:45.taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the
:34:46. > :34:51.Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still
:34:52. > :35:03.support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading
:35:04. > :35:08.lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.
:35:09. > :35:16.You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I
:35:17. > :35:23.am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.
:35:24. > :35:32.Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not
:35:33. > :35:38.know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the
:35:39. > :35:48.national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it
:35:49. > :35:55.was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.
:35:56. > :36:03.When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From
:36:04. > :36:08.day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are
:36:09. > :36:14.personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of
:36:15. > :36:25.extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the
:36:26. > :36:29.mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described
:36:30. > :36:33.by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another
:36:34. > :36:39.speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad
:36:40. > :36:43.is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop
:36:44. > :36:52.extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?
:36:53. > :36:58.We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or
:36:59. > :37:02.supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is
:37:03. > :37:08.a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is
:37:09. > :37:14.a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told
:37:15. > :37:19.their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to
:37:20. > :37:29.speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a
:37:30. > :37:36.Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did
:37:37. > :37:42.not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and
:37:43. > :37:51.have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I
:37:52. > :37:57.completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,
:37:58. > :38:02.the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the
:38:03. > :38:07.toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted
:38:08. > :38:13.among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a
:38:14. > :38:21.non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which
:38:22. > :38:28.embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim
:38:29. > :38:33.community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which
:38:34. > :38:37.are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our
:38:38. > :38:44.view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The
:38:45. > :38:50.work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all
:38:51. > :38:55.associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are
:38:56. > :39:06.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke
:39:07. > :39:11.Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: Carwyn Jones says a
:39:12. > :39:14.referendum to devolve powers over income tax can't happen until the
:39:15. > :39:18.Treasury reforms the way it funds the UK's nations and regions. We'll
:39:19. > :39:21.hear from Kirsty Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal
:39:22. > :39:24.Democrats, who's in our Cardiff newsroom, as opposition parties say
:39:25. > :39:29.the First Minister is refusing to take responsibility. And the Unite
:39:30. > :39:33.union unveils a new education complex aimed at improving workforce
:39:34. > :39:37.skills. We'll hear plenty from our guests here in the studio. Two
:39:38. > :39:42.Assembly Members, Labour's Julie Morgan and the Conservative,
:39:43. > :39:46.Antoinette Sandbach. Now firstly, Assembly Members, like many of us,
:39:47. > :39:53.have been on a half-term break this week which normally means that the
:39:54. > :39:56.Senedd is a very quiet place. But not this week. The Prime
:39:57. > :40:01.Minister and his deputy were in Cardiff aid to announce new
:40:02. > :40:09.financial powers. It includes the right to borrow money. There will be
:40:10. > :40:13.some tax raising powers. Those taxes are stamp duty and the landfill
:40:14. > :40:20.tax. They were all welcomed by the First Minister. The power to vary
:40:21. > :40:26.income tax is on the table as well. Carwyn Jones is not so keen on
:40:27. > :40:29.that. He feels Wales has been short-changed by ?300 million a year
:40:30. > :40:40.by the tragedy. He was the way to many is calculated to be reformed. I
:40:41. > :40:44.spoke to the former presiding officer and he offered his own
:40:45. > :40:49.solution to the funding problem. What we need is a body which is
:40:50. > :40:52.independent of UK Treasury, independent of the tragedies of the
:40:53. > :40:58.devolved government and they will be an objective formula agreed on the
:40:59. > :41:04.needs and therefore the level of subventions to be paid in block
:41:05. > :41:16.grants. That is the proper way to do it. That is called federalism.
:41:17. > :41:19.Let's explore some of those issues with Kirsty Williams, the leader of
:41:20. > :41:28.the Welsh Liberal Democrats who's in our Cardiff newsroom. Let's wind the
:41:29. > :41:33.clock back 48 hours. Your response to the announcements made by David
:41:34. > :41:39.Cameron and Nick Clegg. Very pleased indeed. The fact we have a Silk
:41:40. > :41:43.Commission is something we worked hard to get it into the coalition
:41:44. > :41:51.agreement. We had a bit of the challenge getting the commission
:41:52. > :41:55.opened running. -- and running. To have the Westminster government's
:41:56. > :41:58.positive response is good news. There has been a positive response
:41:59. > :42:04.from you and your party to what the Westminster government have
:42:05. > :42:09.suggested. Carwyn Jones is not so keen on the power to vary a portion
:42:10. > :42:15.of income tax at the moment. Wide you think he's not keen? I listen
:42:16. > :42:18.carefully to what the First Minister said to Nick Savini Friday night.
:42:19. > :42:24.What was so disappointing was when asked the question if Barnett
:42:25. > :42:31.Foreman was reformed, would he look to have that referendum on a
:42:32. > :42:39.devolution of income tax. The Labour Party is split on this issue. Some
:42:40. > :42:47.Assembly Members are keen to see these powers devolved but Labour MPs
:42:48. > :42:50.from Wales are not. I think the First Minister is genuinely
:42:51. > :42:53.concerned about having to take the rate of responsibility for the
:42:54. > :42:58.outcomes of this policy decisions here in Cardiff. It doesn't matter
:42:59. > :43:04.whether his policies succeed or fail in terms of finance he gets the
:43:05. > :43:07.money given to him by London. If you was responsible because of his
:43:08. > :43:10.policy interventions for erasing some of that money, he'd be more
:43:11. > :43:17.accountable when he does not things well. I think he is frightened and
:43:18. > :43:23.of that. I know Leanne Wood agrees and I think Andrew RT Davies has
:43:24. > :43:28.said something similar, but I saw Glyn Davies saying last night all
:43:29. > :43:32.the opposition parties should come together on this and depose Carwyn
:43:33. > :43:38.Jones. He needs to look carefully at the maths. It is not a question of
:43:39. > :43:47.deposing. The Labour is split equally, 30-30. On this issue it
:43:48. > :43:51.seems even the Conservatives are being more radical and more
:43:52. > :43:56.ambitious for Wales than the Welsh Labour government and the Welsh
:43:57. > :44:01.Labour Party. It is extraordinary to find a lead of it can to offered
:44:02. > :44:06.greater responsibility and not being keen to grasp them. The First
:44:07. > :44:10.Minister said on Friday this announcements by the Deputy first --
:44:11. > :44:24.Prime Minister and Prime Minister meant Wales will be taken seriously.
:44:25. > :44:30.But what he does say is until there is a fair funding system for Wales,
:44:31. > :44:34.he says and that the Barnett formula ?300 million shortfall for Wales.
:44:35. > :44:43.Until that is reformed that is no point going ahead. I accept that we
:44:44. > :44:47.need a change to the way in which Wales and the other countries and
:44:48. > :44:52.regions of the UK are funded. I wish Carwyn Jones would have said these
:44:53. > :44:54.things when the Labour Party were in government in Westminster. He has
:44:55. > :45:00.only decided we're not been treated fairly since the coalition
:45:01. > :45:12.government. As I said earlier, what is more depressing, because I agree
:45:13. > :45:24.that the offending formalin is to be changed, but even then if he was
:45:25. > :45:28.asked to move forward, he could not give a clear answer. I am
:45:29. > :45:33.disappointed by that. Let's get them reaction in the studio. Julie
:45:34. > :45:39.Morgan, accusations levelled at your party and the First Minister, Carwyn
:45:40. > :45:46.Jones. It is a pity we have got into a wrangle in this sort of way.
:45:47. > :45:49.Friday was a positive day. We, in the Labour Party, welcomed the
:45:50. > :45:56.opportunity to get borrowing powers, to get infrastructure projects
:45:57. > :45:59.going. That is very, very positive. The Welsh Government wants to look
:46:00. > :46:04.at the best interest of the people of Wales. Kirsty Williams suggested
:46:05. > :46:07.there was a split. Some Assembly Members would be happy for Carwyn
:46:08. > :46:12.Jones to go ahead with the referendum. I knew one of those? I
:46:13. > :46:15.would like a referendum but it is important we sort out the Barnett
:46:16. > :46:24.formula first. Wales does suffer under it. It is on a geographic
:46:25. > :46:27.basis not a needs basis. I welcome independent body to look at it. I
:46:28. > :46:31.don't know whether that will be acceptable to the coalition
:46:32. > :46:40.government. But it would be a good way forward. There is agreement
:46:41. > :46:45.among the opposition parties on this which is very rare in the Assembly.
:46:46. > :46:52.You agree that Carwyn Jones is not making the right decisions. I don't
:46:53. > :46:57.think he is accepting the level of responsibility or two. This gives
:46:58. > :47:02.them greater responsibility. We have heard a lot of talk about and for
:47:03. > :47:07.improvements. It is interesting after the announcement of borrowing
:47:08. > :47:13.powers for the first time, he talking about North Wales. He has
:47:14. > :47:16.realised there is a very big perception in the country that he is
:47:17. > :47:20.not delivering for the north and west of Wales or mid Wales.
:47:21. > :47:26.Resources are being concentrated in the south. Those are the kind of
:47:27. > :47:31.issues I am less concerned with funding from outside Wales, rather
:47:32. > :47:33.than fair funding within Wales. Those are the decisions that will
:47:34. > :47:41.come as a result of these announcements. The First Minister
:47:42. > :47:45.said this money could be used for a new bridge to Anglesey. That has
:47:46. > :47:50.been part of his infrastructure project for some time. We have not
:47:51. > :47:56.seen the level of investment in North Wales and has been in South
:47:57. > :48:01.Wales. That is where the level of accountability will come. It is
:48:02. > :48:04.important that if people are paying through their taxes for
:48:05. > :48:08.infrastructure development that benefits the whole of Wales and not
:48:09. > :48:15.just parts of Wales. Julie Morgan, come back on the idea that the First
:48:16. > :48:20.Minister is shirking his responsibility. He does not want
:48:21. > :48:36.this responsibility and using this idea of reform as a excuse. Labour
:48:37. > :48:39.is in control in Cardiff Bay, we are very keen to move ahead, to move
:48:40. > :48:46.ahead with trying to make things better. We want to do it in a
:48:47. > :48:49.responsible way. There is no question of not wanting to take
:48:50. > :48:52.responsibility. We have an opportunity to move forward and I
:48:53. > :48:59.hope the opposition parties. Carping on about an individual reaction that
:49:00. > :49:05.say how do we go forward. Kirsty Williams, just respond to that.
:49:06. > :49:11.Julie Morgan seems to say this is a random person 's reaction. This is
:49:12. > :49:16.the First Minister of Wales. He is saying that even if Barnett was
:49:17. > :49:20.reformed he could not guarantee to giving the choice to the Welsh
:49:21. > :49:23.people whether they want the Assembly to have those tax-raising
:49:24. > :49:30.powers. For me that is extraordinary. I agree with Carwyn
:49:31. > :49:33.Jones that we need to reform the Barnett formula, I wish he would
:49:34. > :49:39.have spoken about that sooner. Even when that is reformed, we had no
:49:40. > :49:45.clear steer from the First Minister he wanted the Welsh Government to
:49:46. > :49:51.have those powers. Spending in Wales, the amount of money available
:49:52. > :50:00.in Wales, was going off until 2010. But after that it has become obvious
:50:01. > :50:10.that the ballots for minis to be devised. There are real issues about
:50:11. > :50:15.policies are being delivered and whether real improvements are being
:50:16. > :50:17.made. Where there is to school responsibility there is
:50:18. > :50:24.accountability and that is what we have lacked through Welsh
:50:25. > :50:29.Government. I do see that. I don't think he wants it at all. I don't
:50:30. > :50:35.feel he is properly delivering for Wales, that he is using the money in
:50:36. > :50:39.the best way. I think we can argue and show now how we would use it
:50:40. > :50:46.differently and spend it better and more effectively. I would maintain
:50:47. > :50:48.the response from the people of Wales is the do feel a
:50:49. > :50:52.Labour-controlled government has delivered for Wales. When do you
:50:53. > :50:59.think we will see a referendum on income tax? I think we will see it.
:51:00. > :51:04.It will not in this term. Do you think it'll happen before 2020? I
:51:05. > :51:11.think we will have it by 2020 but we will have two sort the Barnett
:51:12. > :51:15.formula out first. We want to use this opportunity to make sure that
:51:16. > :51:21.we can improve things. Let's go to Kirsty Williams. What we have got is
:51:22. > :51:26.the opportunity for Wales to grasp the powers over its future destiny
:51:27. > :51:29.and stop it is extraordinary we have a First Minister of Wales who does
:51:30. > :51:33.not see the opportunities that is being presented to him. It is
:51:34. > :51:38.extraordinary we have the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and
:51:39. > :51:41.the Welsh Conservatives talking about a radical approach to Wales's
:51:42. > :51:46.future than the First Minister of Wales. We have to move on.
:51:47. > :51:49.The Unite union have just dedicated their new education complex at
:51:50. > :51:53.Transport House in Cardiff to the late north Walian union official,
:51:54. > :51:55.Tom Jones. Mr Jones, who died last year, was involved in the long
:51:56. > :52:00.running industrial disputes at Friction Dynamex and the north Wales
:52:01. > :52:02.slate quarries. He was also responsible for getting members
:52:03. > :52:06.involved in education projects such as the Wales Union Learning Fund.
:52:07. > :52:15.Mark Palmer went along to the ceremony at the Unite headquarters.
:52:16. > :52:26.Without further ado, it is my great pleasure to unveil this photomontage
:52:27. > :52:31.of Tom. Tom Jones was a widely respected official for the old
:52:32. > :52:36.transport and workers union who died last year. In tribute to him, Andy
:52:37. > :52:41.Richards said he was an inspirational campaigner who had
:52:42. > :52:46.been involved in a long-running disputes in Friction Dynamex. In all
:52:47. > :52:52.the campaigning he was passionate about education. He was a good the
:52:53. > :53:06.goal shooter. He was a very good administrator. He had a passion for
:53:07. > :53:11.learning. He made use of the Wales Union Learning Fund, funded by the
:53:12. > :53:20.Welsh Government. His was the first project in North Wales. He kicked
:53:21. > :53:24.that. Between 2007 and 2011, 15,000 people trained through the Wales
:53:25. > :53:27.Union Learning Fund. With continued support of the government it is
:53:28. > :53:30.hoped the number will increase by 10,000 by the end of this year with
:53:31. > :53:37.facilities like the Tom Jones education centre playing a key role.
:53:38. > :53:41.Andy Richards said the Wales Union Learning Fund is about cooperation
:53:42. > :53:45.between the unions and employers. Education is important to the
:53:46. > :53:52.profitability of companies and without profitable companies in
:53:53. > :53:57.Wales we do not have union members. We work with thousands of them. The
:53:58. > :54:01.main physical and coming from that is people leaving school at the
:54:02. > :54:05.moment don't have the essential basic skills necessary for industry.
:54:06. > :54:13.By accessing the Wales Union Learning Fund we provide training,
:54:14. > :54:20.particularly as in this room, specialist IT, training them to go
:54:21. > :54:24.into industry. The last government say they are encouraged to CM
:54:25. > :54:27.players from all sectors embracing the Wales Union Learning Fund and
:54:28. > :54:35.the family of Tom Jones say they are proud he is being commemorated in
:54:36. > :54:46.this environment. Preferred a lot about union on cooperation. This is
:54:47. > :54:50.positive. Funding into this fund has increased. Where you have unions
:54:51. > :54:55.like Unite hailing fees to the Labour Party, funding the Labour
:54:56. > :55:00.Party, this is the wrong way to achieve it. We should be educating
:55:01. > :55:08.our children to come out of schools with us a six skills so they already
:55:09. > :55:13.have qualifies -- with basic skills so they already have the
:55:14. > :55:16.modifications. So all the work the unions are doing, you would
:55:17. > :55:20.preferred that the don't have to do it because the children would the
:55:21. > :55:28.educated properly in schools. These skills budget has in cut by ?42
:55:29. > :55:34.million by the Labour government. Why are they pumping money into this
:55:35. > :55:38.specialist fund administered by the unions? It needs to be used in the
:55:39. > :55:42.education sector far more widely. Let's get a response. The unique
:55:43. > :55:49.thing about the Wales Union Learning Fund is it is done through the union
:55:50. > :55:55.in the workplace. You say they work with employers. They work with the
:55:56. > :56:00.workforce. If people, who are lacking basic skills in reading and
:56:01. > :56:05.writing, it is much easier to work with a local union representatives
:56:06. > :56:13.to move forward and get the skills addressed. That is why it has been
:56:14. > :56:18.so successful. I am fully in support of this fund and of the Welsh
:56:19. > :56:21.Government putting money into it. Is your concern here not that the work
:56:22. > :56:27.is carried out, the fact it is carried out by the union? It is
:56:28. > :56:31.concerning to see many going round in a circle. Millions is being put
:56:32. > :56:37.into this fund to an organisation that pays millions of pounds in
:56:38. > :56:42.donations to the Labour Party. We have good local colleges that have
:56:43. > :56:51.extensive contacts with the cis and already work with businesses to
:56:52. > :56:56.improve skills. -- with companies. My view is this money is directed to
:56:57. > :57:05.the wrong place. Rather than cutting the budget colleges which is
:57:06. > :57:12.happening now, I wanted to be put in to this. I return to the practical
:57:13. > :57:18.implications that it is a successful way of delivering learning. I think
:57:19. > :57:25.that it should be approached puny on that practical basis, this is then a
:57:26. > :57:27.successful fund. There are other ways to reach people but this is
:57:28. > :57:33.successful and we need to continue to support it. We will be back to
:57:34. > :57:43.you shortly. Time for a quick look back at some of the political
:57:44. > :57:46.stories of the week in 60 Seconds. The Prime Minister announced next
:57:47. > :57:51.year 's NATO summit will be held at the Celtic Manor resort in Newport.
:57:52. > :58:01.David Cameron said leaders such as President Obama will be there. The
:58:02. > :58:04.Welsh Government's new task force on modernising the North Wales rail
:58:05. > :58:10.network held its first thing. It is chaired while Lesley Griffiths, it
:58:11. > :58:13.is made up of the representatives of the North Wales local authorities,
:58:14. > :58:20.enterprise zones and the private sector. The Anglesey MP, Albert
:58:21. > :58:27.Owen, criticised energy chief executives for awarding pay rises to
:58:28. > :58:31.their staff. Former Wales secretary said the post should be abolished
:58:32. > :58:34.because its existence in a post-devolution Wales could not be
:58:35. > :58:39.justified. He said the Wales office should be scrapped as a cost cutting
:58:40. > :58:47.measure and with Cardiff Bay having more powers, they should be more
:58:48. > :58:52.Assembly Members. We saw the First Minister of the
:58:53. > :59:00.Prime Minister Rather, and the Deputy Prime Minister in the Senedd.
:59:01. > :59:06.One thing we did not touch on is that the NATO summit will be coming
:59:07. > :59:11.to South Wales. It is very good. Celtic Manor is such a great place.
:59:12. > :59:14.I visited it when the European foreign ministers met there. It is
:59:15. > :59:17.each amend this venue so I think it is very good news we we're having
:59:18. > :59:23.another big meeting, a high-profile meeting there. Good for Wales. Do
:59:24. > :59:33.you think we could see F Swan landing at Cardiff airport? It would
:59:34. > :59:36.be interesting. -- air force one. What do you think of the Prime
:59:37. > :59:43.Minister 's visit to South Wales? I am delighted that he has worked so
:59:44. > :59:46.hard to get NATO to come and visit South Wales. I hope the Welsh
:59:47. > :59:50.Government will take it as an opportunity to promote the whole of
:59:51. > :59:58.Wales. They have welcomed it, to be fair. It should promote Welsh to
:59:59. > :00:04.losing, Welsh food, it isn't excellent opportunity to showcase
:00:05. > :00:08.Wales. -- Welsh tourism. You have spent some time doing some walking.
:00:09. > :00:14.Is it is to reach you have been doing it? I walked earlier in the
:00:15. > :00:20.year in September with walk on Wales is a fantastic charity. They have
:00:21. > :00:25.been walking around the coast of Wales to raise funds to help
:00:26. > :00:32.soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder. The charity has been
:00:33. > :00:36.highlighting that and has an fundraising at the same time for
:00:37. > :00:39.combat stress in the Welsh Guards. They finished yesterday here in
:00:40. > :00:43.Cardiff in front of the Senedd and it was very, very moving. You
:00:44. > :00:49.swapped your trainers for your work shoes today! Next week, I suspect
:00:50. > :00:52.both the William B in the Assembly because you have a debate in the
:00:53. > :01:00.reader to Remembrance Sunday. It is a debate on the Armed Forces. It is
:01:01. > :01:04.an important week. I have been particularly struck by how many
:01:05. > :01:08.young people are now involved and interested and I feel that next week
:01:09. > :01:18.is a week where we will be thinking about and preparing for Remembrance
:01:19. > :01:25.Sunday. I agree with that. We have a Wales that contributes to the Armed
:01:26. > :01:31.Forces. It is not just about remembering the world wars. That is
:01:32. > :01:34.why it is a web portal to look at things like the veterans card which
:01:35. > :01:41.hasn't been delivered or implemented. Things like the PTSD
:01:42. > :01:47.treatment there should be, I say, available in Wales. It isn't at the
:01:48. > :01:52.moment. It was as an opportunity to look at those. Many thanks for
:01:53. > :01:56.coming in today. We are out of time. We will be back with you next week.
:01:57. > :01:59.But for the time being, let's go back to London.
:02:00. > :02:17.Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's
:02:18. > :02:31.relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the
:02:32. > :02:34.Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka
:02:35. > :02:37.Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did
:02:38. > :02:40.earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.
:02:41. > :02:44.Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:02:45. > :02:48.office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the
:02:49. > :02:53.Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative
:02:54. > :02:57.mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he
:02:58. > :03:03.should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey
:03:04. > :03:10.denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial
:03:11. > :03:14.dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side
:03:15. > :03:20.is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send
:03:21. > :03:23.its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened
:03:24. > :03:28.in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families
:03:29. > :03:32.out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset
:03:33. > :03:39.particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of
:03:40. > :03:43.things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own
:03:44. > :03:49.report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -
:03:50. > :03:57.forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was
:03:58. > :04:09.being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the
:04:10. > :04:14.report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is
:04:15. > :04:16.something that the police are looking into so that is not
:04:17. > :04:29.something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We
:04:30. > :04:32.learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained
:04:33. > :04:37.to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour
:04:38. > :04:48.Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party
:04:49. > :04:50.and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are
:04:51. > :04:55.looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like
:04:56. > :04:58.the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil
:04:59. > :05:04.Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985. Ed
:05:05. > :05:10.Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not
:05:11. > :05:16.worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?
:05:17. > :05:19.Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we
:05:20. > :05:27.have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many
:05:28. > :05:31.respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further
:05:32. > :05:36.ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship
:05:37. > :05:41.with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of
:05:42. > :05:47.the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to
:05:48. > :05:51.vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but
:05:52. > :05:56.they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and
:05:57. > :06:01.that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do
:06:02. > :06:04.things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour
:06:05. > :06:09.Party that were set up in the 20th century. The reform of the way in
:06:10. > :06:13.which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us
:06:14. > :06:20.in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3
:06:21. > :06:29.million working people who ensure our public services function. At
:06:30. > :06:34.Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk
:06:35. > :06:43.Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that. I'd
:06:44. > :06:50.just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to
:06:51. > :06:53.give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be
:06:54. > :06:59.confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to
:07:00. > :07:05.take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our
:07:06. > :07:12.Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed
:07:13. > :07:17.Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in
:07:18. > :07:21.special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite
:07:22. > :07:29.union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean
:07:30. > :07:37.according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the
:07:38. > :07:42.meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer
:07:43. > :07:49.free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your
:07:50. > :07:57.turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the
:07:58. > :08:03.allegations that have been made. On your point I think it is healthy the
:08:04. > :08:07.Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their
:08:08. > :08:16.rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at
:08:17. > :08:22.Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of
:08:23. > :08:28.their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to
:08:29. > :08:32.our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will
:08:33. > :08:38.find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets
:08:39. > :08:44.tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working
:08:45. > :08:48.in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port
:08:49. > :08:54.and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets
:08:55. > :08:59.overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from
:09:00. > :09:05.unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite
:09:06. > :09:09.know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears
:09:10. > :09:14.used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private
:09:15. > :09:20.sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was
:09:21. > :09:24.born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of
:09:25. > :09:31.their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they
:09:32. > :09:39.can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But
:09:40. > :09:44.there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is
:09:45. > :09:49.right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for
:09:50. > :09:55.their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their
:09:56. > :10:00.aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their
:10:01. > :10:07.workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the
:10:08. > :10:11.protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has
:10:12. > :10:19.said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.
:10:20. > :10:23.He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the
:10:24. > :10:28.radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that
:10:29. > :10:32.was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend
:10:33. > :10:38.to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like
:10:39. > :10:46.land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing
:10:47. > :10:49.the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.4
:10:50. > :10:55.million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The
:10:56. > :11:00.business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances
:11:01. > :11:06.back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being
:11:07. > :11:11.used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater
:11:12. > :11:19.variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro
:11:20. > :11:26.enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a
:11:27. > :11:30.living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but
:11:31. > :11:35.there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business
:11:36. > :11:42.because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is
:11:43. > :11:48.good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are
:11:49. > :11:53.not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax
:11:54. > :12:02.credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know
:12:03. > :12:12.after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living
:12:13. > :12:16.wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and
:12:17. > :12:24.we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party
:12:25. > :12:39.pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a
:12:40. > :12:45.living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.
:12:46. > :12:51.What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle
:12:52. > :12:58.as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one
:12:59. > :13:02.of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this
:13:03. > :13:06.soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working
:13:07. > :13:17.together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.
:13:18. > :13:26.That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be
:13:27. > :13:31.here again next weekend at 12:25pm after the Remembrance Day service at
:13:32. > :13:39.the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.