:00:37. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:44. > :00:47.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:48. > :00:52.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:53. > :00:56.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:57. > :01:00.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:01. > :01:09.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:10. > :01:12.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:13. > :01:15.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:16. > :01:29.Later in the programme: We'll hear some balls. Stay. It is good fun
:01:30. > :01:32.Later in the programme: We'll hear from the Health Minister, Mark
:01:33. > :01:34.Drakeford, on his plans to deal with the winter emergency
:01:35. > :01:45.Drakeford, on his plans to deal with It is free choice. In London, the
:01:46. > :01:48.row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their
:01:49. > :01:54.success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan
:01:55. > :01:59.Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick
:02:00. > :02:03.Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in
:02:04. > :02:13.Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a
:02:14. > :02:16.breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go
:02:17. > :02:19.far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has
:02:20. > :02:22.been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at
:02:23. > :02:25.a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this
:02:26. > :02:31.to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in
:02:32. > :02:38.the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying
:02:39. > :02:46.again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We
:02:47. > :02:50.will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind
:02:51. > :02:57.solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it
:02:58. > :03:02.will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with
:03:03. > :03:05.Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:06. > :03:10.looking the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:11. > :03:16.interests of the whole world, including
:03:17. > :03:17.interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic
:03:18. > :03:24.agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will
:03:25. > :03:28.threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the
:03:29. > :03:32.future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems
:03:33. > :03:38.future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the
:03:39. > :03:51.Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took
:03:52. > :03:58.the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough
:03:59. > :04:02.line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon. I
:04:03. > :04:07.am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the
:04:08. > :04:12.talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on
:04:13. > :04:21.Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.
:04:22. > :04:28.Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge
:04:29. > :04:33.saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this
:04:34. > :04:41.year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The
:04:42. > :04:47.next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch
:04:48. > :04:52.will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is
:04:53. > :05:02.still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal
:05:03. > :05:07.at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to
:05:08. > :05:18.be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They
:05:19. > :05:26.cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium
:05:27. > :05:33.heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power
:05:34. > :05:39.programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is
:05:40. > :05:46.an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be
:05:47. > :05:52.impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French
:05:53. > :05:58.blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel
:05:59. > :06:03.but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and
:06:04. > :06:07.Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a
:06:08. > :06:18.story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with
:06:19. > :06:24.nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more
:06:25. > :06:27.against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite
:06:28. > :06:32.MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom
:06:33. > :06:35.of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank
:06:36. > :06:44.clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this
:06:45. > :06:48.week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival
:06:49. > :06:53.day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament
:06:54. > :06:58.with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the
:06:59. > :07:04.Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your
:07:05. > :07:08.colleagues save time and again - you talk about initiatives and what you
:07:09. > :07:14.are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union
:07:15. > :07:19.is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I
:07:20. > :07:24.am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any
:07:25. > :07:29.criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.
:07:30. > :07:34.Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several
:07:35. > :07:38.states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real
:07:39. > :07:43.opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would
:07:44. > :07:52.want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to
:07:53. > :07:59.you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at
:08:00. > :08:03.the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we
:08:04. > :08:08.get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between
:08:09. > :08:15.Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered
:08:16. > :08:21.blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no
:08:22. > :08:24.difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match
:08:25. > :08:30.Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing
:08:31. > :08:35.that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in
:08:36. > :08:39.some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say
:08:40. > :08:43.that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European
:08:44. > :08:51.elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can
:08:52. > :08:56.win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a
:08:57. > :09:02.doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in
:09:03. > :09:06.Edinburgh was not that friendly. Edinburgh is not everything in
:09:07. > :09:11.Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those
:09:12. > :09:17.elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You
:09:18. > :09:20.might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is
:09:21. > :09:27.likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial
:09:28. > :09:35.by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full
:09:36. > :09:41.season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a
:09:42. > :09:47.different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,
:09:48. > :09:52.actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with
:09:53. > :09:57.her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep
:09:58. > :10:03.and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You
:10:04. > :10:11.can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee
:10:12. > :10:14.that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans
:10:15. > :10:22.exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of
:10:23. > :10:30.Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk
:10:31. > :10:37.whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy
:10:38. > :10:45.arguments put around about this. We will go on doing business - go on
:10:46. > :10:48.doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do
:10:49. > :10:58.trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs. The
:10:59. > :11:03.head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British
:11:04. > :11:08.business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of
:11:09. > :11:17.jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With
:11:18. > :11:25.Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say
:11:26. > :11:31.what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future
:11:32. > :11:36.investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the
:11:37. > :11:40.plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be
:11:41. > :11:44.careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they
:11:45. > :11:50.may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take
:11:51. > :11:56.that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now
:11:57. > :12:00.they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority
:12:01. > :12:04.saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.
:12:05. > :12:10.The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and
:12:11. > :12:15.we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There
:12:16. > :12:19.is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,
:12:20. > :12:25.manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the
:12:26. > :12:33.costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at
:12:34. > :12:41.the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins
:12:42. > :12:45.with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,
:12:46. > :12:54.most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are
:12:55. > :12:59.going to lose, aren't you? In 1975, the circumstances were exactly the
:13:00. > :13:02.same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very
:13:03. > :13:06.little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to
:13:07. > :13:14.stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.
:13:15. > :13:18.We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.
:13:19. > :13:22.These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly
:13:23. > :13:26.enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they
:13:27. > :13:32.vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I
:13:33. > :13:37.am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,
:13:38. > :13:47.we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance
:13:48. > :14:07.of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small
:14:08. > :14:10.publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most
:14:11. > :14:17.important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,
:14:18. > :14:21.there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party
:14:22. > :14:28.issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to
:14:29. > :14:31.this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is
:14:32. > :14:44.to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know
:14:45. > :14:56.that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the
:14:57. > :15:06.risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that
:15:07. > :15:15.verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They
:15:16. > :15:20.can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After
:15:21. > :15:25.these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr
:15:26. > :15:35.Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is
:15:36. > :15:40.scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young
:15:41. > :15:44.British workers between 16 and 74 without work. A lot of them want
:15:45. > :15:50.work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled
:15:51. > :15:57.labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this
:15:58. > :16:03.week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think
:16:04. > :16:08.that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of
:16:09. > :16:11.Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the
:16:12. > :16:15.county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven
:16:16. > :16:19.seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that
:16:20. > :16:23.audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is
:16:24. > :16:28.put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it
:16:29. > :16:31.doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure
:16:32. > :16:36.doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which
:16:37. > :16:40.will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing
:16:41. > :16:44.completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of
:16:45. > :16:49.people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to
:16:50. > :16:53.Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose
:16:54. > :16:55.vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be
:16:56. > :16:58.determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would
:16:59. > :17:03.be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if
:17:04. > :17:06.a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to
:17:07. > :17:11.happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will
:17:12. > :17:15.happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up? If
:17:16. > :17:20.you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a
:17:21. > :17:24.safety net of a benefits system, claim child allowance for your kids
:17:25. > :17:29.in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments
:17:30. > :17:33.already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come
:17:34. > :17:36.or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a
:17:37. > :17:39.major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.
:17:40. > :17:44.Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for
:17:45. > :17:47.Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and
:17:48. > :17:50.complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the
:17:51. > :17:54.Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week
:17:55. > :17:58.won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he
:17:59. > :18:03.focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on
:18:04. > :18:10.energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be
:18:11. > :18:15.about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we
:18:16. > :18:23.show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a
:18:24. > :18:29.debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you
:18:30. > :18:35.want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an
:18:36. > :18:39.easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the
:18:40. > :18:44.side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer
:18:45. > :18:49.charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires
:18:50. > :18:53.wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the
:18:54. > :18:56.millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember
:18:57. > :19:00.it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom
:19:01. > :19:09.tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,
:19:10. > :19:16.that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a
:19:17. > :19:22.debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,
:19:23. > :19:29.joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.
:19:30. > :19:34.Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after
:19:35. > :19:38.their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that
:19:39. > :19:42.reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room
:19:43. > :19:46.tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What
:19:47. > :19:50.it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting
:19:51. > :19:56.lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people
:19:57. > :20:00.who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax, so
:20:01. > :20:03.basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant
:20:04. > :20:07.in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,
:20:08. > :20:11.you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.
:20:12. > :20:15.But actually, something like 96% of the people who're going to be hit by
:20:16. > :20:18.the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move
:20:19. > :20:22.into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my
:20:23. > :20:28.constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700
:20:29. > :20:33.a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence
:20:34. > :20:37.of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided
:20:38. > :20:42.to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?
:20:43. > :20:47.11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the
:20:48. > :20:51.way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's
:20:52. > :20:56.not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils
:20:57. > :21:00.provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,000
:21:01. > :21:04.affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a
:21:05. > :21:08.job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course
:21:09. > :21:12.the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always
:21:13. > :21:16.looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good
:21:17. > :21:20.thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it's
:21:21. > :21:25.low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on
:21:26. > :21:29.the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved
:21:30. > :21:32.away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from
:21:33. > :21:37.your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are
:21:38. > :21:41.and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got
:21:42. > :21:46.to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair
:21:47. > :21:49.The Government that was commissioning independent research
:21:50. > :21:53.on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on
:21:54. > :21:56.the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking
:21:57. > :22:00.about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the
:22:01. > :22:02.independent research, that independent investigation before
:22:03. > :22:07.determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have
:22:08. > :22:10.waited until they'd have done their independent research before they
:22:11. > :22:16.bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which
:22:17. > :22:21.is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What
:22:22. > :22:24.they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people
:22:25. > :22:28.going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the
:22:29. > :22:32.bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations
:22:33. > :22:35.would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which
:22:36. > :22:39.haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they
:22:40. > :22:43.introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the
:22:44. > :22:46.evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a
:22:47. > :22:50.terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the
:22:51. > :22:55.people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It
:22:56. > :22:59.is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is
:23:00. > :23:05.people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them
:23:06. > :23:09.to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed
:23:10. > :23:12.that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a
:23:13. > :23:16.majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare
:23:17. > :23:20.issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see
:23:21. > :23:24.people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'
:23:25. > :23:28.expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory
:23:29. > :23:32.jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed
:23:33. > :23:36.for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,
:23:37. > :23:40.and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a
:23:41. > :23:45.compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on
:23:46. > :23:49.welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is
:23:50. > :23:52.people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the
:23:53. > :23:57.richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel
:23:58. > :24:02.allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you
:24:03. > :24:06.don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid
:24:07. > :24:11.said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not
:24:12. > :24:17.yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not
:24:18. > :24:20.convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and
:24:21. > :24:25.explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,
:24:26. > :24:28.for pensioners, who're well off, we are saying they don't need the
:24:29. > :24:31.Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to
:24:32. > :24:37.people in this country, we do think that there should be that
:24:38. > :24:39.tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be
:24:40. > :24:45.offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our
:24:46. > :24:50.case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as
:24:51. > :24:53.popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.
:24:54. > :24:58.Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the
:24:59. > :25:02.latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten
:25:03. > :25:06.worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly
:25:07. > :25:10.opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political
:25:11. > :25:14.commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since
:25:15. > :25:21.Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New
:25:22. > :25:24.Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won
:25:25. > :25:27.their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal
:25:28. > :25:32.Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In
:25:33. > :25:38.1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council
:25:39. > :25:44.seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in
:25:45. > :25:49.the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the
:25:50. > :25:52.third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now
:25:53. > :25:57.saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,
:25:58. > :26:01.Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are
:26:02. > :26:04.average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them
:26:05. > :26:10.when the economy starts to grow? Well, I've just said to you, I'm not
:26:11. > :26:13.a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting
:26:14. > :26:16.policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what
:26:17. > :26:21.they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the
:26:22. > :26:25.plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we
:26:26. > :26:30.have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now
:26:31. > :26:34.starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask
:26:35. > :26:38.you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to
:26:39. > :26:42.no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the
:26:43. > :26:46.economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living
:26:47. > :26:49.standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth.
:26:50. > :26:53.What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the
:26:54. > :26:56.economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will
:26:57. > :27:00.recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too
:27:01. > :27:05.long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely
:27:06. > :27:08.right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they
:27:09. > :27:13.are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are
:27:14. > :27:19.right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next
:27:20. > :27:22.year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of
:27:23. > :27:27.David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen
:27:28. > :27:31.slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You
:27:32. > :27:34.will know that the broader measurement, real household
:27:35. > :27:38.disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything
:27:39. > :27:43.into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say
:27:44. > :27:49.where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that
:27:50. > :27:53.happens, what is your next line? There is a set of arguments about
:27:54. > :27:57.living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems
:27:58. > :28:02.that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I
:28:03. > :28:07.can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other
:28:08. > :28:12.question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed
:28:13. > :28:17.Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks
:28:18. > :28:22.like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will
:28:23. > :28:25.a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign
:28:26. > :28:29.up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter
:28:30. > :28:33.does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the
:28:34. > :28:38.newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My
:28:39. > :28:40.question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do
:28:41. > :28:45.with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the
:28:46. > :28:48.wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The
:28:49. > :28:52.newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,
:28:53. > :28:57.Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are
:28:58. > :29:01.setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it
:29:02. > :29:06.is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,
:29:07. > :29:09.we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is
:29:10. > :29:13.that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really
:29:14. > :29:18.turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll
:29:19. > :29:21.sort things out, leave it to us, then they have sorted things out but
:29:22. > :29:26.a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is
:29:27. > :29:29.check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent
:29:30. > :29:32.system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee
:29:33. > :29:36.things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that.
:29:37. > :29:41.That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't
:29:42. > :29:48.force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by
:29:49. > :29:52.Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick
:29:53. > :29:55.with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution
:29:56. > :29:59.or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been
:30:00. > :30:05.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That's 43
:30:06. > :30:10.years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent
:30:11. > :30:27.Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We
:30:28. > :30:41.have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What
:30:42. > :30:48.do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and
:30:49. > :31:01.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go.
:31:02. > :31:15.I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your
:31:16. > :31:21.mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men
:31:22. > :31:35.get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.
:31:36. > :31:44.Dashes-macro know what your age. Page three girls, should they stay
:31:45. > :31:49.or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page
:31:50. > :31:56.three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top
:31:57. > :32:02.on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in
:32:03. > :32:12.favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What
:32:13. > :32:15.is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the
:32:16. > :32:20.newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is
:32:21. > :32:29.degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it?
:32:30. > :32:43.Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a
:32:44. > :32:48.shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do
:32:49. > :32:56.something about their car parks! Mother nature, the human body. It
:32:57. > :33:03.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against
:33:04. > :33:08.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.
:33:09. > :33:15.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby
:33:16. > :33:26.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up
:33:27. > :33:36.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong
:33:37. > :33:43.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page
:33:44. > :33:53.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged
:33:54. > :33:59.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I
:34:00. > :34:06.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?
:34:07. > :34:15.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not
:34:16. > :34:24.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down
:34:25. > :34:30.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You
:34:31. > :34:36.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I
:34:37. > :34:42.have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since
:34:43. > :34:53.the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think
:34:54. > :34:59.there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from
:35:00. > :35:02.outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked
:35:03. > :35:07.yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their
:35:08. > :35:12.knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to
:35:13. > :35:22.be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the
:35:23. > :35:27.circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s
:35:28. > :35:32.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their
:35:33. > :35:38.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people
:35:39. > :35:44.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not
:35:45. > :35:51.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is
:35:52. > :36:00.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to
:36:01. > :36:05.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have
:36:06. > :36:11.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been
:36:12. > :36:16.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a
:36:17. > :36:22.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not
:36:23. > :36:27.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement
:36:28. > :36:34.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being
:36:35. > :36:40.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?
:36:41. > :36:48.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not
:36:49. > :36:54.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as
:36:55. > :36:58.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as
:36:59. > :37:07.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be
:37:08. > :37:11.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should
:37:12. > :37:15.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,
:37:16. > :37:22.which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in
:37:23. > :37:26.this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just
:37:27. > :37:37.over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the
:37:38. > :37:43.Hello, and on the Sunday Politics Wales: We'll tell you about concerns
:37:44. > :37:47.that welfare reforms could result in fewer houses in the private sector
:37:48. > :37:50.being rented to people on benefits. And we'll hear from the Health
:37:51. > :37:55.Minister, Mark Drakeford, as he prepares to announce how the NHS
:37:56. > :37:57.will deal with winter pressures. Joining me throughout today's
:37:58. > :37:58.programme are two MPs: The Conservative Jonathan Evans and
:37:59. > :38:31.Labour's Kevin Brennan. You were there for that service this
:38:32. > :38:36.morning. What was the mood there? It was a sombre and reflective moods,
:38:37. > :38:42.thinking about all of those who have sacrificed their lives on our
:38:43. > :38:48.behalf. People are very aware of how this has grown as an event, perhaps
:38:49. > :38:55.because we have been involved in more conflicts in recent years than
:38:56. > :39:02.before. But also there is an awareness that the centenary of the
:39:03. > :39:11.First World War was next year. You were nor -- you were in north
:39:12. > :39:17.Cardiff. Our service is three or four miles north of the National
:39:18. > :39:22.service, but it is very much a community event. The local youth
:39:23. > :39:27.groups allied to the services, and more local groups plus it --
:39:28. > :39:34.participated and we can remember. There were about 500 people. That is
:39:35. > :39:42.replicated right the way across Wales and I interrupt what Kevin has
:39:43. > :39:47.said. Many people do understand now that these events are very relevant
:39:48. > :39:49.and important to the current generation.
:39:50. > :39:53.On Tuesday, the Welsh Government will announce how it will deal with
:39:54. > :39:56.the increased pressure that will hit the health service this winter.
:39:57. > :39:58.Several health boards have already announced how they'll cope with
:39:59. > :40:01.extra emergency demands, and ministers have been working with the
:40:02. > :40:05.health boards, ambulance service and social care bodies on their plans
:40:06. > :40:14.for the winter ahead. And the Health Minister, Mark Drakeford, joins us
:40:15. > :40:19.from our Cardiff newsroom. You will be leading a government debate on
:40:20. > :40:28.Tuesday. You are a brave man because the open condition -- opposition
:40:29. > :40:33.parties will relish this. I will be very happy to discuss our records. I
:40:34. > :40:39.will set out the plans we have this winter, and the fact we will go into
:40:40. > :40:42.this coming winter with performance across the care service at a better
:40:43. > :40:48.level than we were this time last year. I am sure you will be aware of
:40:49. > :40:53.comments by the Prime Minister who alluded to the possibility of a
:40:54. > :40:57.winter crisis in the NHS in Wales. He doesn't think there will be a
:40:58. > :41:05.crisis because there is a crisis every day in the NHS in Wales, he
:41:06. > :41:14.says. That is grounded in ignorance and arrogance. He looks at the Welsh
:41:15. > :41:18.NHS with an old Etonian telescope. He will be far better off
:41:19. > :41:29.concentrating on the image -- on the English NHS. The coming winter will
:41:30. > :41:33.give us all difficult days. What we ought to be doing is concentrating
:41:34. > :41:37.on things we can learn from, to make sure we all did a very best we can
:41:38. > :41:42.to make sure that patients across the United Kingdom get the service
:41:43. > :41:46.they will need. And you are happy, are you, that the Welsh Government
:41:47. > :41:53.is doing as much as it can to ensure these crises are dealt with? We have
:41:54. > :41:59.a strong national leadership this year. We have lots of new activity
:42:00. > :42:03.at local level. There is no way at all that anybody can predict
:42:04. > :42:10.everything that will happen during the winter. The last winter was the
:42:11. > :42:13.longest and coldest since 1963. We will hit difficulties during this
:42:14. > :42:18.winter, too. But we need to make sure we have done everything we can
:42:19. > :42:29.to prepare for that. So, what have you done? We have a new national
:42:30. > :42:34.planning forum. We have ?10 million bringing new nurses onto our wards.
:42:35. > :42:42.We have new arrangements between the ambulance service and health boards.
:42:43. > :42:48.Since March of this year, when last winter was coming to an end, we have
:42:49. > :42:52.been preparing for the winter we now face. The opposition parties are
:42:53. > :42:58.very keen to criticise and they were very critical of the decision of the
:42:59. > :43:03.health board in West Wales. Operations were being cancelled. The
:43:04. > :43:08.government denies that but already, the impact of any winter crisis is
:43:09. > :43:23.seeing its way to the Senate, isn't it? -- to the Senate. Opposition
:43:24. > :43:27.parties cannot have it both ways. There are steps that local health
:43:28. > :43:33.boards have to take. Sometimes, that will mean a new balance between
:43:34. > :43:38.planned surgery and emergency surgery. We need to support what
:43:39. > :43:44.local health boards are doing, and we need to support the staff. The
:43:45. > :43:52.critical attitude opposition parties bring to the table is no help to
:43:53. > :43:57.them patients. If I could ask you about a health inspectors comments
:43:58. > :44:02.made last week: They didn't think they were in a position to be able
:44:03. > :44:09.to predict or decide whether there were anything on the scale of
:44:10. > :44:15.mid-Staffs happening on the scale of Welsh NHS. You couldn't be sure it
:44:16. > :44:22.was happening. The inspectors say they can't be sure it isn't. Who can
:44:23. > :44:28.tell us whether the NHS... Whether anything like this is going on in
:44:29. > :44:33.the NHS? The Welsh NHS is not immune to the pressures that led to those
:44:34. > :44:35.difficulties. However, I am confident that there is nothing to
:44:36. > :44:38.those difficulties. However, I am confident that there is nothing
:44:39. > :44:47.today going on in the Welsh NHS on that scale. Health inspection Wales
:44:48. > :44:52.is just one strand that we have. We have inspections from the Welsh
:44:53. > :44:56.audit office, we have all the things that local health boards themselves
:44:57. > :45:03.do to make sure services are safe and sustainable, we have the actions
:45:04. > :45:08.of Welsh Government. I am confident that today, in the Welsh NHS, the
:45:09. > :45:14.conditions reported in mid-Staffs are not happening. Do I think this
:45:15. > :45:20.means we are immune from that? Absolutely not. We will go on
:45:21. > :45:29.seeking assurances that we need that the service patients have is a safe
:45:30. > :45:35.one, and one they can rely on. Your response to what you heard there?
:45:36. > :45:42.Wales is prepared perfectly to the winter ahead. The Minister is
:45:43. > :45:50.lashing out to all his critics there, and I don't see it from an
:45:51. > :45:59.old Etonian telescope, as he put it. Our health service and Wells is
:46:00. > :46:03.underfunded, compared to England. -- in Wales. Many people are saying
:46:04. > :46:08.there are real pressures that arise as a result of that and the outcomes
:46:09. > :46:11.we are getting in which targets are being missed on a consistent basis.
:46:12. > :46:17.That's not because people are working hard but because there has
:46:18. > :46:27.not been adequate funding put into the system. I have got, in my own
:46:28. > :46:30.constituency, two high-profile reports that have been done by the
:46:31. > :46:39.public servers ombudsman on health service cases. -- public service.
:46:40. > :46:49.Lest anyone says these are carping critics, a minister spoke about her
:46:50. > :46:59.late husband's experience of a hospital in her constituency. I you
:47:00. > :47:08.surprised that the Welsh NHS is featuring so prominently during PMQ
:47:09. > :47:19.'s? I am pleased we have Mark Drake offered as I Health Minister. -- as
:47:20. > :47:37.our Health Minister. For David Cameron, it's a deflection for
:47:38. > :47:41.addressing the real crises. So, it's a distraction really from answering
:47:42. > :47:48.the questions the Ed Miliband puts to him every week about the NHS in
:47:49. > :47:53.England. Howell reassured RU by what the minister had to say about how
:47:54. > :47:58.prepared the NHS is this winter? I can't think is a better person to
:47:59. > :48:02.act as I Health Minister. He is really on top of his brief and has
:48:03. > :48:11.pulled together all the elements required. As you know, in the recent
:48:12. > :48:18.budget settlement, more money has been put into the NHS in Wales.
:48:19. > :48:22.Mark, getting out there in front of the Assembly and making the
:48:23. > :48:28.statement himself an opening that up to scrutiny is an indication of the
:48:29. > :48:31.approach he is taking. And he very much understand the health service
:48:32. > :48:39.and understands its values and ethos. We must make sure that we
:48:40. > :48:48.also celebrate the amazing achievements of our NHS. That recent
:48:49. > :48:53.increase in funding is a recognition that the decision to cut health
:48:54. > :48:58.funding is a problem. We have got to work together in order to improve
:48:59. > :49:07.outcomes. We have just heard from Mark, dismissing everyone is carping
:49:08. > :49:11.critics, that's irrelevant. People are looking for better health
:49:12. > :49:18.outcomes in Wales, and ones which at least match those in England.
:49:19. > :49:26.England is better than Wales. In many ways, they are better than the
:49:27. > :49:33.health service there. Do you think, perhaps, the Minister could be
:49:34. > :49:42.commended for coming in and talking to us? Perhaps, he is presenting
:49:43. > :49:48.himself as a hostage? If there is a crisis, what he is saying today will
:49:49. > :49:58.be thrown back in his face. He's being open and frank about the
:49:59. > :50:05.challenges faced by the NHS. The austerity cuts have led to big
:50:06. > :50:09.pressures on the budget. Mark is being upfront and frank and should
:50:10. > :50:13.be congratulated for being prepared to face up to these difficulties and
:50:14. > :50:16.explain to the public what the problems are and the approach the
:50:17. > :50:23.Welsh Government is taking to deal with how you deal with this with
:50:24. > :50:28.limited resources. The resource question suggests that not enough
:50:29. > :50:37.money is there and it is being cut by your government. How money gets
:50:38. > :50:40.spent as a choice. The government here in Wales decide to buy Cardiff
:50:41. > :50:46.airport, then say they don't have enough money to buy other things.
:50:47. > :50:55.These are all priorities. I have known marker for many years, but he
:50:56. > :51:00.is an assembly minister. It's his job to be accountable. The only
:51:01. > :51:04.reason we are saying it is good that he is doing this is because there
:51:05. > :51:08.are too many other ministers who don't think they need to be
:51:09. > :51:11.accountable at all. One of the country's biggest private
:51:12. > :51:15.landlords has told this programme that benefit changes could put his
:51:16. > :51:18.business at risk. The UK government says it's making the system more
:51:19. > :51:22.fair but Carmarthenshire-based Kevin Green fears tenants will fall behind
:51:23. > :51:26.on their rent when a new system of paying benefits is introduced. Our
:51:27. > :51:36.political reporter, Daniel Davies, spent the day with him.
:51:37. > :51:42.Kevin Green, a landlord and entrepreneur, but he concerned of
:51:43. > :51:49.the knock-on effect of welfare reforms. If rent payment is put in a
:51:50. > :51:54.tenant's hand, they have not been told how to budget. It will lead to
:51:55. > :52:04.huge arrears. He's built a small property empire. I spent the morning
:52:05. > :52:10.with him to hear how he thinks the overhaul to the welfare state will
:52:11. > :52:18.changes business. Because I am on my own with all the children... I met
:52:19. > :52:23.one of his tenants. Her benefits were capped in August. She gets just
:52:24. > :52:32.over ?500 a week but is behind on rent. I can't afford to pay all my
:52:33. > :52:40.bills. I run out of money before I am due to get my next lot of
:52:41. > :52:45.benefits. I am struggling. We don't know how many people here would have
:52:46. > :52:49.had their benefits capped. Just over 700 people in Wales were affected,
:52:50. > :52:55.but a much bigger change to the welfare system is on its way.
:52:56. > :53:09.Universal credit will merge six benefit payments into one monthly
:53:10. > :53:12.payment. Because I was homeless myself in 1984, I tentatively
:53:13. > :53:17.towards helping people who are high-priority tenants. One of the
:53:18. > :53:35.options for me, that will have to stop. The UK government wants to:
:53:36. > :53:42.Years ago, Kevin Green was sleeping rough. Now, keep teachers of the
:53:43. > :53:48.people how to make a fortune. Universal credit will be phased in
:53:49. > :53:56.in four years. This wealth coach says he's not convinced it will out.
:53:57. > :54:02.We have heard many criticisms of this plan from the UK government,
:54:03. > :54:07.one from a surprising source there. I find it difficult to have a great
:54:08. > :54:12.deal of sympathy for Mr Green, having built up his property empire
:54:13. > :54:16.and made his fortune in this way. But I do have sympathy with a lot of
:54:17. > :54:23.the people who come to see me in my surgeries who need help with their
:54:24. > :54:30.rent. Some of the changes that the Government have been making make no
:54:31. > :54:38.sense, like the bedroom tax. What about the benefits? That's affecting
:54:39. > :54:43.lots of constituents as well. We said we would support a, but we need
:54:44. > :54:49.to look at the impact it is happening on families. Also, there
:54:50. > :54:55.are other changes like paying the rent direct to tenants. I understand
:54:56. > :55:03.the purpose is to help them budget, but in practice, with the bedroom
:55:04. > :55:08.tax, housing associations talk about knocking flats down because they can
:55:09. > :55:15.no longer fill them. And in the case of direct payments, its resulting in
:55:16. > :55:21.rent arrears growing. You said you didn't have much sympathy for Mr
:55:22. > :55:27.Green. I am sure you don't. Well, he has looked at the fact that the
:55:28. > :55:31.Government is funding ?22 billion in housing benefit, and he would like a
:55:32. > :55:37.situation where the Government cut out the middle person altogether. He
:55:38. > :55:42.says he wants to help people in a sticky situation. That's all well
:55:43. > :55:47.and good, but vulnerable people will be helped by the changes the
:55:48. > :55:54.Government is putting forward. Up until now, we have cut out the
:55:55. > :56:02.middleman. Mr Green gets his cheque on a regular basis. But the test
:56:03. > :56:06.found that 95% of people are perfectly capable of receiving
:56:07. > :56:12.housing benefit and settling their housing costs on a regular basis
:56:13. > :56:17.without increases in arrears. In 5% of cases, those arrears went up. We
:56:18. > :56:25.need to find a mechanism where we ensure the vulnerable people need
:56:26. > :56:31.direct payment. But that the other 95%, we shouldn't treat these people
:56:32. > :56:39.as though they are incapable of understanding anything. I would
:56:40. > :56:47.welcome a change being made to help vulnerable people. That test also
:56:48. > :56:56.showed a big increase in arrears. Everyone of them are individual
:56:57. > :57:06.cases. They may have a multitude of other issues they are trying to deal
:57:07. > :57:09.with. And that is not happening, because the pilot showed those rent
:57:10. > :57:14.arrears are going up for the most vulnerable tenants. There should be
:57:15. > :57:35.a mechanism to help those. On his first official visit to the
:57:36. > :57:39.National assembly, the new US ambassador to Britain said UK
:57:40. > :57:45.membership of the European Union was entirely a matter for the UK
:57:46. > :57:52.government. There was no gunpowder, treason and plot at Westminster as
:57:53. > :58:04.20 MPs took part in a rocket launching competition. They joined
:58:05. > :58:17.apprentices from across the UK. Alan cares -- Alan Cairns proposed. --
:58:18. > :58:26.proposed a new law. Before kick-off at the Wales rugby match, the first
:58:27. > :58:41.Minister gave the Duke of Cambridge a certificate.
:58:42. > :58:50.You have had a debate on nuisance calls a decade ago. I introduced a
:58:51. > :59:00.ten minute rule Bill about ten mean -- about ten years ago. It's like
:59:01. > :59:10.that old game were some kids used to play, where you knocked on doors and
:59:11. > :59:16.ran away. Well, companies did that. You had a debate last week. Tell us
:59:17. > :59:23.about that. The hype point for me was a debate on family
:59:24. > :59:27.annihilation. We need to drill down into these cases, understand a lot
:59:28. > :59:31.more about them and change our public policy in order to reduce the
:59:32. > :59:40.incidence of these terrible events happening. From the research you've
:59:41. > :59:45.done, the circumstances of those cases in the UK different to
:59:46. > :59:52.circumstances in other countries? Absolutely. In 80% of those cases in
:59:53. > :00:00.Europe and the United States, the weapon used is a gun. In the UK, we
:00:01. > :00:13.have fewer of those cases, but guns are used in less than 20% of cases.
:00:14. > :00:23.The US ambassador was here. He said it's a matter for the UK whether the
:00:24. > :00:25.UK stays in the EU. I agree. America is discussing with us a new trade
:00:26. > :00:28.deal. more equipment so they can see
:00:29. > :00:42.cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more
:00:43. > :00:46.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal
:00:47. > :00:49.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city
:00:50. > :00:53.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the
:00:54. > :00:57.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak
:00:58. > :01:08.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is
:01:09. > :01:09.England the loser in this attempt to keep the
:01:10. > :01:17.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:18. > :01:22.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:23. > :01:28.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:29. > :01:32.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:33. > :01:36.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:37. > :01:42.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:43. > :01:46.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:47. > :01:53.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:54. > :02:00.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:01. > :02:05.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:06. > :02:10.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:11. > :02:15.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:16. > :02:21.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year? We
:02:22. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:31.or England can have a fair deal, within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:32. > :02:35.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally. If
:02:36. > :02:44.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:45. > :02:49.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:50. > :02:53.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:54. > :02:58.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:59. > :03:05.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:06. > :03:10.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:11. > :03:14.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:15. > :03:19.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:20. > :03:24.British come English Parliament, the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:25. > :03:29.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:30. > :03:32.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:33. > :03:37.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:38. > :03:42.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:43. > :03:46.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:47. > :03:52.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:53. > :03:59.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:04:00. > :04:06.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:07. > :04:15.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:16. > :04:21.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:22. > :04:25.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:26. > :04:29.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:30. > :04:33.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:34. > :04:37.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:38. > :04:49.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:50. > :04:57.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:58. > :05:04.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:05. > :05:09.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:10. > :05:14.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:15. > :05:19.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:20. > :05:22.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:23. > :05:28.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:29. > :05:34.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:35. > :05:38.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:39. > :05:42.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:43. > :05:47.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:48. > :05:52.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:53. > :05:55.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:56. > :06:00.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:01. > :06:05.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:06. > :06:09.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:10. > :06:14.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:15. > :06:20.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:21. > :06:26.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:27. > :06:31.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:32. > :06:35.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:36. > :06:39.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:40. > :06:43.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:44. > :06:48.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:49. > :06:52.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:53. > :06:55.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:56. > :07:02.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:03. > :07:10.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:11. > :07:15.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:16. > :07:19.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:20. > :07:26.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:27. > :07:30.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:31. > :07:34.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:35. > :07:37.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:38. > :07:41.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:42. > :07:45.being in the United Kingdom and, under their breath, or in the case
:07:46. > :07:52.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave!
:07:53. > :07:56.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:57. > :07:59.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:08:00. > :08:02.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:03. > :08:05.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:06. > :08:09.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:10. > :08:13.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:14. > :08:22.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:23. > :08:26.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:27. > :08:33.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:34. > :08:40.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:41. > :08:46.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:47. > :08:53.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine? I
:08:54. > :09:18.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:19. > :09:25.you who took cocaine, they went... Is it better to confess or the that
:09:26. > :09:31.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:32. > :09:37.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:38. > :09:43.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:44. > :09:47.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:48. > :09:53.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:54. > :10:04.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:05. > :10:09.to be regarded as a rising star, turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:10. > :10:15.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:16. > :10:18.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:19. > :10:22.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:23. > :10:28.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:29. > :10:36.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:37. > :10:41.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:42. > :10:45.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:46. > :10:50.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:51. > :10:58.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:59. > :11:00.cannot have a front line career. There is the politician confessing
:11:01. > :11:05.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:06. > :11:10.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:11. > :11:15.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:16. > :11:20.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:21. > :11:26.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine. He
:11:27. > :11:33.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:34. > :11:39.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:40. > :11:42.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:43. > :11:46.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:47. > :11:52.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:53. > :11:56.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:57. > :12:04.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 2014,
:12:05. > :12:09.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:10. > :12:14.will have two find an extra ?400 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:15. > :12:26.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:27. > :12:35.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:36. > :12:39.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:40. > :12:43.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:44. > :12:47.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:48. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:01.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:02. > :13:05.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:06. > :13:12.about it, it is senior figures - people in senior economic positions.
:13:13. > :13:16.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:17. > :13:21.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:22. > :13:27.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:28. > :13:30.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:31. > :13:33.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:34. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.