:00:36. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:48.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:49. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:15. > :01:17.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:18. > :01:23.Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones to spur economic activity.
:01:24. > :01:26.Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones has launched a public awareness
:01:27. > :01:29.campaign on presumed consent organ donation, exactly two years to the
:01:30. > :01:31.day before the Welsh Government's new system becomes law.
:01:32. > :01:33.day before the Welsh Government's capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:34. > :01:44.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:45. > :01:47.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:48. > :01:54.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:55. > :01:57.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:58. > :02:06.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:07. > :02:09.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:13. > :02:14.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:15. > :02:18.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:19. > :02:22.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:23. > :02:27.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:28. > :02:33.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:34. > :02:37.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:38. > :02:41.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:42. > :02:45.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:46. > :02:48.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:49. > :02:54.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:55. > :03:00.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:01. > :03:04.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:05. > :03:07.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:08. > :03:13.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:14. > :03:18.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:19. > :03:23.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:24. > :03:27.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:28. > :03:34.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:35. > :03:40.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:41. > :03:46.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:47. > :03:50.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:51. > :03:53.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:54. > :03:59.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:04:00. > :04:03.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:04. > :04:10.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:11. > :04:14.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:15. > :04:18.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:19. > :04:23.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:24. > :04:28.incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:29. > :04:35.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:36. > :04:40.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:41. > :04:45.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:46. > :04:51.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:52. > :04:54.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:55. > :04:59.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:00. > :05:06.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:07. > :05:11.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:12. > :05:15.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:16. > :05:19.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:20. > :05:23.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:24. > :05:28.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:29. > :05:33.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:34. > :05:40.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08
:05:41. > :05:48.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:49. > :05:51.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:52. > :05:55.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50
:05:56. > :06:00.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:01. > :06:05.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:06. > :06:09.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:10. > :06:14.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:15. > :06:17.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:18. > :06:23.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:24. > :06:31.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:32. > :06:34.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:35. > :06:40.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:41. > :06:46.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:47. > :06:51.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:52. > :06:54.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:55. > :06:58.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:06:59. > :07:03.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:04. > :07:07.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:08. > :07:13.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:14. > :07:18.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:19. > :07:23.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:24. > :07:27.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:28. > :07:33.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:34. > :07:38.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:39. > :07:41.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:42. > :07:45.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:46. > :07:51.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:52. > :07:57.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:58. > :08:03.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:04. > :08:07.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:08. > :08:15.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:16. > :08:19.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:20. > :08:25.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:26. > :08:33.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:34. > :08:40.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:41. > :08:45.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:46. > :08:52.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:53. > :08:55.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:56. > :09:08.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:09. > :09:12.point quite well. David Cameron's panicked response to this over the
:09:13. > :09:17.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:18. > :09:22.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:23. > :09:25.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:26. > :09:33.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:34. > :09:38.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:39. > :09:41.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:42. > :09:45.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:46. > :09:49.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:50. > :09:57.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:58. > :10:01.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:02. > :10:06.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:07. > :10:12.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:13. > :10:15.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:16. > :10:22.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:23. > :10:32.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:33. > :10:37.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:38. > :10:42.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:43. > :10:45.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:46. > :10:55.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:56. > :10:59.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:00. > :11:04.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:05. > :11:09.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:10. > :11:16.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:17. > :11:19.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:20. > :11:24.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:25. > :11:32.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:33. > :11:39.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:40. > :11:43.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:44. > :11:49.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:50. > :11:53.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:54. > :11:58.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:59. > :12:05.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:06. > :12:08.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:09. > :12:20.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:21. > :12:26.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference.
:12:27. > :12:37.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on
:12:38. > :12:43.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:44. > :12:48.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:49. > :12:55.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:56. > :13:00.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:01. > :13:05.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:06. > :13:09.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:10. > :13:16.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:17. > :13:20.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:21. > :13:25.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:26. > :13:31.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:32. > :13:42.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:43. > :13:47.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:48. > :13:51.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:52. > :13:57.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:58. > :14:02.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:03. > :14:10.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:11. > :14:15.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:16. > :14:19.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:20. > :14:25.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:26. > :14:29.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:30. > :14:34.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:35. > :14:39.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:40. > :14:44.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:45. > :14:49.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:50. > :14:53.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:54. > :14:57.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:58. > :15:02.disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:03. > :15:08.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:09. > :15:15.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:16. > :15:28.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:29. > :15:34.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:35. > :15:37.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:38. > :15:48.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:49. > :15:53.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:54. > :15:57.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:58. > :16:04.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:05. > :16:07.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:08. > :16:10.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:11. > :16:14.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:15. > :16:17.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:18. > :16:20.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:21. > :16:24.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:25. > :16:28.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:29. > :16:32.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:33. > :16:38.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:39. > :16:43.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:44. > :16:47.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:48. > :16:56.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:57. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:58. > :17:01.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:02. > :17:06.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004.
:17:07. > :17:12.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:13. > :17:15.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:16. > :17:20.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:21. > :17:31.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:32. > :17:37.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:38. > :17:40.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:41. > :17:46.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:47. > :17:49.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:50. > :17:54.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:55. > :17:57.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:58. > :18:00.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:01. > :18:06.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:07. > :18:11.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:12. > :18:14.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:15. > :18:21.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:22. > :18:25.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:26. > :18:30.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:31. > :18:33.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:34. > :18:38.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:39. > :18:43.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:44. > :18:47.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:48. > :18:53.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:54. > :19:00.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:01. > :19:04.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:05. > :19:10.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:11. > :19:14.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:15. > :19:19.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:20. > :19:24.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:25. > :19:29.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:30. > :19:33.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:34. > :19:38.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:39. > :19:43.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:44. > :19:46.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:47. > :19:49.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:50. > :19:56.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:57. > :19:58.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:19:59. > :20:01.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:02. > :20:05.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:06. > :20:11.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:12. > :20:14.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:15. > :20:17.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:18. > :20:22.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:23. > :20:26.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:27. > :20:31.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:32. > :20:35.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:36. > :20:46.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:47. > :20:50.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:51. > :20:56.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:57. > :21:00.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:01. > :21:05.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:06. > :21:10.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:11. > :21:15.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:16. > :21:19.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:20. > :21:23.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:24. > :21:28.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:29. > :21:33.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:34. > :21:38.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:39. > :21:42.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:43. > :21:48.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:49. > :21:53.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:54. > :21:58.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:21:59. > :22:04.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:05. > :22:09.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:10. > :22:13.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:14. > :22:16.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:17. > :22:22.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:23. > :22:26.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:27. > :22:31.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:32. > :22:35.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:36. > :22:40.in countries all over the world. We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:41. > :22:43.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:44. > :22:47.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:48. > :22:52.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:53. > :22:57.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:58. > :23:01.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:02. > :23:05.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:06. > :23:07.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:08. > :23:13.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:14. > :23:17.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:18. > :23:21.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:22. > :23:24.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:25. > :23:28.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:29. > :23:32.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:33. > :23:38.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:39. > :23:42.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:43. > :23:45.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:46. > :23:51.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:52. > :23:57.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:58. > :24:00.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:01. > :24:06.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:07. > :24:10.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:11. > :24:13.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:14. > :24:19.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:20. > :24:24.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:25. > :24:29.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:30. > :24:33.changes that happened. Secondly, in answer to the question that you just
:24:34. > :24:37.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:38. > :24:40.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:41. > :24:43.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:44. > :24:48.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:49. > :24:52.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:53. > :24:55.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:56. > :25:00.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:01. > :25:04.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:05. > :25:08.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:09. > :25:14.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:15. > :25:17.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:18. > :25:22.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:23. > :25:26.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:27. > :25:31.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:32. > :25:41.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:42. > :25:44.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:45. > :25:46.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:47. > :25:49.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:50. > :25:52.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:53. > :25:55.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:56. > :26:00.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:01. > :26:04.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:05. > :26:28.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:29. > :26:31.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:32. > :26:33.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:34. > :26:36.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:37. > :26:39.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:40. > :26:41.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:42. > :26:44.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:45. > :26:47.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:48. > :26:52.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000
:26:53. > :26:57.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:58. > :27:01.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:02. > :27:06.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:07. > :27:10.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:11. > :27:13.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:14. > :27:23.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:24. > :27:27.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:28. > :27:33.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:34. > :27:36.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:37. > :27:40.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:41. > :27:47.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:48. > :27:50.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:51. > :27:54.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:55. > :27:58.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:59. > :28:02.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:03. > :28:07.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:08. > :28:10.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:11. > :28:16.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:17. > :28:18.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:19. > :28:22.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:23. > :28:26.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:27. > :28:30.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:31. > :28:33.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:34. > :28:40.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:41. > :28:45.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:46. > :28:48.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:49. > :28:52.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:53. > :28:56.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:57. > :29:00.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:01. > :29:07.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:08. > :29:13.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:14. > :29:18.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:19. > :29:23.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:24. > :29:29.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:30. > :29:34.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:35. > :29:39.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:40. > :29:43.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:44. > :29:54.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:55. > :29:59.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:00. > :30:04.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:05. > :30:08.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:09. > :30:13.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:14. > :30:17.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:18. > :30:22.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:23. > :30:29.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:30. > :30:37.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:38. > :30:42.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:43. > :30:46.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:47. > :30:52.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:53. > :31:00.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:01. > :31:03.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:04. > :31:15.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:16. > :31:31.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:32. > :31:35.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:36. > :31:40.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:41. > :31:43.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:44. > :31:46.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:47. > :31:49.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:50. > :32:00.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:01. > :32:05.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:06. > :32:09.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:10. > :32:18.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:19. > :32:23.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:24. > :32:29.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:30. > :32:36.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:37. > :32:43.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:44. > :32:45.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader,
:32:46. > :32:50.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:51. > :32:56.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:57. > :33:02.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:03. > :33:05.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:06. > :33:09.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:10. > :33:12.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:13. > :33:15.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:16. > :33:21.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:22. > :33:32.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:33. > :33:37.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:38. > :33:51.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:52. > :33:54.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:55. > :33:57.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:58. > :34:04.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:05. > :34:07.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:08. > :34:17.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:18. > :34:21.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:22. > :34:24.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:25. > :34:30.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:31. > :34:36.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:37. > :34:41.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:42. > :34:45.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:46. > :34:49.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:50. > :34:55.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:56. > :35:01.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:02. > :35:06.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:07. > :35:10.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:11. > :35:16.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:17. > :35:24.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris, and
:35:25. > :35:27.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:28. > :35:34.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:35. > :35:38.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:39. > :35:45.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:46. > :35:48.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:49. > :35:55.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:56. > :36:00.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:01. > :36:06.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:07. > :36:11.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:12. > :36:14.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:15. > :36:19.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:20. > :36:25.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:26. > :36:30.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:31. > :36:37.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:38. > :36:43.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:44. > :36:52.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:53. > :36:57.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:58. > :37:05.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:06. > :37:12.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:13. > :37:15.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:16. > :37:19.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:20. > :37:23.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:24. > :37:33.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:34. > :37:37.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:38. > :37:44.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:45. > :37:51.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:52. > :38:00.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:38:01. > :38:05.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night. It
:38:06. > :38:10.is like dining with a film star. People are queueing up to speak to
:38:11. > :38:15.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He
:38:16. > :38:32.has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to.
:38:33. > :38:38.Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: Are we suffering from PISA
:38:39. > :38:41.panic as we await the next set of results which measure international
:38:42. > :38:44.education standards? And the Welsh Government launches a
:38:45. > :38:48.public awareness campaign on the change in law where people will be
:38:49. > :38:54.presumed to be organ donors after death. Joining me throughout today's
:38:55. > :39:02.programme are two AMs, Plaid Cymru's Simon Thomas and the Conservative
:39:03. > :39:05.Suzy Davies. Let's start with the news that George Osborne has
:39:06. > :39:10.announced plans that the government will cut and of -- average energy
:39:11. > :39:17.bills by ?50 a year. It really is the hot topic at the moment, and he
:39:18. > :39:21.has put down a marker. You are quite right, people are talking a lot
:39:22. > :39:26.about it and he has put a sensible idea into the debate. Perhaps to
:39:27. > :39:31.neutralise the information the Labour Party has brought out. We all
:39:32. > :39:35.remember their promise which has since been identified as a con. The
:39:36. > :39:39.idea of price freezing you talk about, it seems this week that the
:39:40. > :39:45.government have been asking the energy companies to do just that.
:39:46. > :39:49.That has been denied. Conversation always take place and if there is a
:39:50. > :39:58.situation where the energy companies are saying, we can actually keep
:39:59. > :40:05.prices down provide d hold prices don't go up too much, that is to be
:40:06. > :40:09.applauded. They are also looking at the level of green taxes and
:40:10. > :40:13.spreading it through general taxation where would be noticed as
:40:14. > :40:15.much, that does not affect the less well-off people who have been quite
:40:16. > :40:22.naturally complaining about the cost of energy bills. Simon Thomas, your
:40:23. > :40:26.party outlined a specific policy on energy at the conference. Looking at
:40:27. > :40:32.how the Conservatives and Labour are squabbling over what to do, what do
:40:33. > :40:38.you think's you get ?50 from one and ?60 from the other. What is
:40:39. > :40:44.important is we retain subsidies for this -- for the poorer people to get
:40:45. > :40:50.installation. We must ensure that continues. If this money is coming
:40:51. > :40:54.from that scheme, we must make sure the government does make sure the
:40:55. > :40:57.money is there for the poorest households. In the long term, we're
:40:58. > :41:04.not going to solve this. All this is a gimmick unless we solve the
:41:05. > :41:11.fundamental problem which is that six companies have a kind of
:41:12. > :41:24.monopoly. I work closely together, Camru say, and it looks strange how
:41:25. > :41:28.the prices go up in similar time. We have to have a new entrant in the
:41:29. > :41:32.market and encourage new people to come into the market. A Welsh
:41:33. > :41:40.company could be established, which is the policy we floated at the last
:41:41. > :41:43.conference. Two years from today, Wales will
:41:44. > :41:47.become the first country in the UK to introduce a system where people
:41:48. > :41:50.will be presumed to have agreed for their organs to be donated after
:41:51. > :41:54.death. The so-called system of presumed consent will come in to
:41:55. > :41:57.force on the first of December 2015, and as part of the countdown, the
:41:58. > :42:01.Welsh Government has launched a campaign to raise awareness of the
:42:02. > :42:05.changes. To kick that off, this family were
:42:06. > :42:09.joined by two men more suited to the Cabinet table than the dinner
:42:10. > :42:13.table, the health minister and the First Minister. This little girl is
:42:14. > :42:22.five, but before her first birthday she had had to liver transplants and
:42:23. > :42:25.heart surgery. Donated organs saved her life, and that is why her
:42:26. > :42:29.parents Nathan and Laura decided to take part in the Welsh government's
:42:30. > :42:35.campaign to make more people aware of the changes to the law on organ
:42:36. > :42:41.donation. It has saved her life and saved a life of the family. Without
:42:42. > :42:47.that donation, without somebody taking that little box, or in the
:42:48. > :42:52.future of remaining in and opting in, she would not be here. She is a
:42:53. > :42:57.lovely cheeky five-year-old now. We are very thankful for that. The
:42:58. > :43:02.Welsh government has launched a website teacher in the stories of
:43:03. > :43:05.families like this one. But that isn't the only way the government
:43:06. > :43:10.want to spread the message that the law is changing. The First Minister
:43:11. > :43:13.once families to have a discussion about families donating their organs
:43:14. > :43:19.when they get together around the table for Sunday lunch. I was there
:43:20. > :43:23.when the law went through the assembly, many hours of scrutinising
:43:24. > :43:27.the bill. It got through, that scrutiny was right and proper, but
:43:28. > :43:33.it shows that we can make a real difference in Wales to people 's
:43:34. > :43:38.lives. We're not the first country to do this, but we are the first UK
:43:39. > :43:43.nation to do this. We want to say, look, this system will help many
:43:44. > :43:47.people. People can opt out if they want to, but the outcomes will be
:43:48. > :43:52.fantastic in terms of more and more people having the get of life. The
:43:53. > :43:55.health minister says the information campaign aims to make sure everyone
:43:56. > :44:02.in Wales is aware of the changes in the law to any system which will
:44:03. > :44:07.presume feeble consent -- people consent to organ donation. One MP is
:44:08. > :44:16.against changing the law but wants to see more organ donations. The
:44:17. > :44:25.government have decided to go with changing the law. I'm opposed to it.
:44:26. > :44:31.I think it is a serious mistake. We have to look at the most effective
:44:32. > :44:34.way. I would rather see them focus on more intensive care beds and more
:44:35. > :44:37.specialist nurses, these are the areas where they would make a real
:44:38. > :44:44.difference. I am not doing that, and I think information is going to be
:44:45. > :44:49.one part of what they can do. Having said that, it is a move in the right
:44:50. > :44:52.direction. As a result, this family have been able to have that
:44:53. > :44:55.difficult decision about whether they would want to donate their
:44:56. > :45:02.organs in the future. Over the next two years, the Welsh government want
:45:03. > :45:04.many families to do the same. The First Minister that talks about the
:45:05. > :45:13.debate continuing even though the law has been passed. It is going to
:45:14. > :45:19.be different and difficult. It will, I remember the debate. The
:45:20. > :45:23.government set aside I think up to ?10 million for the information that
:45:24. > :45:30.is needed will stop this comes in after 18. So students need to be
:45:31. > :45:37.aware of it. There is a lot of work to be done here. It is the assembly
:45:38. > :45:42.that has ratified the law and it was a majority vote. We took the view
:45:43. > :45:45.after a lot of careful consideration that the Welsh public as a whole
:45:46. > :45:53.were ready for this kind of presumed consent. Now we have to make sure
:45:54. > :45:56.people are aware that they can still join the register, but if they
:45:57. > :46:00.really don't want to donate organs, they have to make that known either
:46:01. > :46:04.formally but also to their family and friends, because there is a safe
:46:05. > :46:07.guard back, if you have made your views clear to family and friends,
:46:08. > :46:14.that will safeguard your body in the event of a nastier accident
:46:15. > :46:17.whatever. You said the Welsh government were ready for it, but
:46:18. > :46:27.you went, where you? You voted against it. I voted against it for a
:46:28. > :46:31.very specific concern. If there was a situation where people presumed to
:46:32. > :46:35.know everything there was to know about a particular act, that is
:46:36. > :46:38.never going to happen in real life, regardless of how much money the
:46:39. > :46:42.government puts up and however efficiently it is communicated all
:46:43. > :46:45.stop there will always be someone who doesn't know, and then there is
:46:46. > :46:54.a genuine question about whether they can be deemed to have consent.
:46:55. > :47:01.Despite that, I wanted to vote for it. One specific reason prevented me
:47:02. > :47:04.doing that. It is a situation where somebody is going to be a live donor
:47:05. > :47:08.but doesn't have the mental capacity to understand their organs are being
:47:09. > :47:13.taken from them from someone else's benefit. There is a UK law
:47:14. > :47:16.protecting them but I took the view that really that protection should
:47:17. > :47:20.have been incorporated into this bill, and because it wasn't, I
:47:21. > :47:25.thought it was an incomplete bill and was flawed and I couldn't
:47:26. > :47:33.supported. I asked Mark Drake said on Friday when I caught up with
:47:34. > :47:36.him, should the debate come to an end now that the law has been
:47:37. > :47:44.passed? Is that not because a discussion needs to be had. The more
:47:45. > :47:55.people that talk about it, I suppose the more people know about it. It
:47:56. > :47:58.depends what you mean by debate. I think the debate in terms of whether
:47:59. > :48:04.it is right or wrong, churches and faith views are very strong, of
:48:05. > :48:07.course. People with those views must opt out of this, they must state
:48:08. > :48:17.their views, they do not want deemed consent. So a bit of debate and
:48:18. > :48:21.discussion helps to spread the news. I accept that not everyone will know
:48:22. > :48:25.the ins and outs of every law, but as a society, we are right to make
:48:26. > :48:36.this presumption and we have to have the safeguards in place, calls. --
:48:37. > :48:39.of course. And we saw the benefits, because we can now have a wider
:48:40. > :48:43.range of organ donations and better provision within Wales.
:48:44. > :48:46.On Tuesday, we'll find out where Wales sits in the PISA rankings, the
:48:47. > :48:50.global education league table. When the last results came out three
:48:51. > :48:53.years ago, Wales had slipped down. The focus this year will be on
:48:54. > :48:57.mathematics - Wales lagged behind most other countries, coming 40th in
:48:58. > :49:07.the subject in 2009. Tim Cox from the NASUWT teaching union joins us
:49:08. > :49:10.from our Cardiff newsroom camera. We've heard much discussion about
:49:11. > :49:14.these results, which we won't get until Tuesday. Do you think we're
:49:15. > :49:22.getting carried with the importance of these results? Absolutely, we
:49:23. > :49:33.need to see this imbalance. It is a very, very narrow focus that these
:49:34. > :49:35.PISA tests have, and PISA themselves say you shouldn't take everything
:49:36. > :49:44.about your education just from this narrow test. For example, a recent
:49:45. > :49:47.test survey suggested that the UK's education system was the second best
:49:48. > :49:56.in Europe and the sixth best in the world. That is not what PISA
:49:57. > :50:01.suggest? ! No, but as I say, they are very narrow and you need to look
:50:02. > :50:05.at the board which of the curriculum as a whole and whether that delivers
:50:06. > :50:13.the required needs within Wales, within the UK. The people who come
:50:14. > :50:22.out very well in their stash Singapore -- in this gash Singapore,
:50:23. > :50:24.Hong Kong, China - they've recently, they are to look at the creative
:50:25. > :50:30.elements of our curriculum because that is what is missing within this
:50:31. > :50:37.system. They focus on the core and therefore they focus and do well in
:50:38. > :50:45.these kinds of tests. If you just want to do the PISA tests and teach
:50:46. > :50:48.to them and drilled to -- and drilled children in is test, you can
:50:49. > :50:52.do better, but does that give you what you want out of an education
:50:53. > :50:58.system? Does it give you the rounded, creative people is that we
:50:59. > :51:02.create within our system now? From what your union says, there is an
:51:03. > :51:14.Welsh government advice on PISA and how to teach it. Teachers may wish
:51:15. > :51:17.to focus on the kind of material featured in those tests but your
:51:18. > :51:22.union is suggesting they focus on a broader curriculum. So are you
:51:23. > :51:27.telling them to ignore what the Welsh government tell them to do on
:51:28. > :51:30.PISA? Well, the Welsh government have started the initiative in terms
:51:31. > :51:34.of the literacy and numeracy framework, and that is a good idea
:51:35. > :51:37.as long as there is the support for teachers to deliver on that. The
:51:38. > :51:41.evidence so far is that has been very little training for teachers in
:51:42. > :51:46.the classroom on actually how to deliver that new framework. Teachers
:51:47. > :51:53.will naturally focus on things which are in the correct in -- in the
:51:54. > :51:59.curriculum in Wales, because, by and large, that is how they are
:52:00. > :52:04.measured. If you want to basically outsource your curriculum and
:52:05. > :52:08.qualification framework to the OECD and teach to their tests, that is a
:52:09. > :52:15.decision you can make armour but we don't do see -- we don't believe in
:52:16. > :52:19.our union that that is in the favour of a broad curriculum. Do you think
:52:20. > :52:24.that is what the Welsh government have done? We think they have taken
:52:25. > :52:29.a balanced approach, but if they are sending out the PISA tests to drill
:52:30. > :52:35.pupils in them, we don't think that should be the focus of the education
:52:36. > :52:43.system. It doesn't mean to say that you ought to narrow your curriculum
:52:44. > :52:47.to focus on the PISA elements. Looking ahead, the results come out
:52:48. > :52:51.on Tuesday. A quick glance at the papers this morning suggests that UK
:52:52. > :52:54.countries as a whole have stagnated, with Wales performing
:52:55. > :53:05.worse than other countries in the UK. If that is a price to you? -- is
:53:06. > :53:12.that a surprise to you? Know, because, again, PISA focus on very
:53:13. > :53:14.narrow things. Wales is very good at dealing with additional needs and
:53:15. > :53:20.languages, special needs. That is not some we wish to lose. You pulled
:53:21. > :53:27.in those cohorts are included in the PISA tests. -- the pupils in those
:53:28. > :53:31.cohorts. We had no idea if those pupils are put in the tests in other
:53:32. > :53:40.countries. It is difficult to find the sample sizes in the cohorts that
:53:41. > :53:51.are taking these tests. If you want to follow PISA, then fine, but we
:53:52. > :53:55.don't think that is in favour of the rounded, creative people that come
:53:56. > :54:00.out of our education system. Don't be so focused and narrow on what
:54:01. > :54:05.PISA tells you, because they are just one voice amongst many and we
:54:06. > :54:12.need to have a breadth of discussion around the whole of the education
:54:13. > :54:20.service. Simon Thomas, just react to that? Some valid points that. But it
:54:21. > :54:25.is the Welsh government which voluntarily went into the PISA
:54:26. > :54:30.education system and asked us to judge them by this system, saying
:54:31. > :54:34.they wanted to be in the top 20 x 2015. So I think as opposition
:54:35. > :54:49.parties, we are right to see how they have done just two years before
:54:50. > :54:56.that deadline. There may be a narrow focus in aspects of PISA, but it is
:54:57. > :55:01.valid within a UK focus. It is broadly the same type of education
:55:02. > :55:06.throughout the UK so we can compare like with like with PISA and we
:55:07. > :55:11.fallen behind our sister nations, so we need to be aware of that. And the
:55:12. > :55:22.third point is I viewed PISA as a kind of temperature test. It tells
:55:23. > :55:25.us the symptoms, it tells us something is wrong with the
:55:26. > :55:30.education body politic. It doesn't tell is the full diagnosis. There
:55:31. > :55:39.are some issues around the descriptive kind of approach in
:55:40. > :55:42.Singapore. At other countries in PISA are more creative, like the
:55:43. > :55:51.land. So we need to think about how we do better, and it is not just
:55:52. > :55:59.PISA who measures that. They do it very differently in Iceland. Did
:56:00. > :56:04.these results cause you concern? Do we need to change the whole system?
:56:05. > :56:09.We need to look at how we teach in Wales at the moment. There is a
:56:10. > :56:12.saying that knowledge is power but actually it is the application of
:56:13. > :56:19.knowledge that is powerful. When you look at the Welsh economy and some
:56:20. > :56:22.of our disadvantaged areas, I don't get the sense that they are getting
:56:23. > :56:27.the best of our education system at the moment. It is not just PISA that
:56:28. > :56:31.identifies that. Other reports have said that deprived areas are not
:56:32. > :56:38.doing the best but their most able and talented students. Looking
:56:39. > :56:41.across the world for different solutions is no bad thing, as far as
:56:42. > :56:45.I'm concerned. Anything we can do to improve the level of creativity the
:56:46. > :56:52.that we have in our syllabus is a good thing, and the UN recently
:56:53. > :56:55.concluded that creative thinking in syllabuses have gone down over the
:56:56. > :57:00.last 20 years. So it is not accurate to think that we are thinking
:57:01. > :57:04.creatively enough syllabuses at the moment, even though the emphasis has
:57:05. > :57:07.been on skills for some time. There is a disconnect between what is
:57:08. > :57:12.happening and we would like to be happening at the moment. Tim Cox,
:57:13. > :57:16.just respond to some of the things you've heard? Well, it is
:57:17. > :57:25.interesting looking at Scandinavian countries. The respect and the
:57:26. > :57:28.conditions for their teachers, I believe it is then land where people
:57:29. > :57:33.want to become a teacher burst, and if they can't become a teacher then
:57:34. > :57:38.they have to become a doctor. We don't hold teachers in this country
:57:39. > :57:41.in that kind of regard, with that status. We haven't got the
:57:42. > :57:46.conditions in which they are able to empower the pupils. If you turn
:57:47. > :57:48.around to a pupil and denigrated their work and told them they were
:57:49. > :57:52.rubbish and they had to do it better, teachers would get sacked
:57:53. > :57:56.the doing that, but it is all right but politicians aren't other people
:57:57. > :58:01.the education sphere to knock what teachers do without giving them the
:58:02. > :58:04.support and the tools to work with, and particularly in Wales, it has to
:58:05. > :58:13.be said, the necessary funding to make sure they are able to deliver.
:58:14. > :58:19.Thank you for joining us. We know the results come out on Tuesday.
:58:20. > :58:24.What are you expecting? Hugh Lewis said he doesn't expect much
:58:25. > :58:29.improvement. Yes, and I think all the experts have said things will be
:58:30. > :58:36.flat-lining or marginally improving. Mathematics is one of the ones with
:58:37. > :58:49.done we kissed in. -- the weakest in. We do need to professionalise
:58:50. > :58:51.the education system. We've got a Masters coming in to build the
:58:52. > :58:57.professionalism of teachers, to raise the teachers' status. But
:58:58. > :59:02.also, we need a recognition that this is one of the things we can get
:59:03. > :59:07.right in Wales. It is completely devolved to us, it is in the hands
:59:08. > :59:13.of the Welsh government. Do you think improvement can be made?
:59:14. > :59:17.Certainly, both of us are on the committee scrutinising government
:59:18. > :59:22.policy on education. There is plenty of space. Time now for a quick look
:59:23. > :59:34.back at some of the political stories of the week in 60 seconds.
:59:35. > :59:37.An MP called for a modern transport system but North East Wales to
:59:38. > :59:40.ensure economic growth for the area. The Labour MP said the current
:59:41. > :59:44.infrastructure was creaking at the seams.
:59:45. > :59:47.The health Minister congratulated and villains stabbed after October
:59:48. > :59:52.figures showed the Ambulance Service he did targets for responding to the
:59:53. > :59:57.most urgent calls for the first time in 18 months. However, figures also
:59:58. > :59:59.showed a deterioration in NHS performance on waiting times for
:00:00. > :00:04.treating the most urgent cancer patients.
:00:05. > :00:07.David Jones joined the Scottish independence debate, warning that a
:00:08. > :00:12.yes vote in the referendum would be a huge gamble and truly into the
:00:13. > :00:15.unknown to the people of Scotland. He said the government's plans fail
:00:16. > :00:22.to answer important questions about the consequence of a yes vote.
:00:23. > :00:26.And Roger Williams spent a month growing his moustache for November
:00:27. > :00:34.to support research into prostate cancer. He lost it in seconds on
:00:35. > :00:41.live television. Suzy, we had the Ambulance Service
:00:42. > :00:44.has lost -- has met its target of meeting emergency calls within eight
:00:45. > :00:50.minutes. That is something your party in the assembly had made some
:00:51. > :00:55.capital off. It is not about making capital from it. The government has
:00:56. > :00:59.done it, let's see how long it can go on for. I don't think getting it
:01:00. > :01:05.right this wrong time -- this one time is an indication that the
:01:06. > :01:17.government has got it right. The government is reviewing ambulance
:01:18. > :01:21.times. There may be value in that. There's been a pretty poor approach
:01:22. > :01:25.to this in past years for far too long. Thank you for coming in. We
:01:26. > :01:28.to this in past years for far too touching on eugenics and things like
:01:29. > :01:45.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George
:01:46. > :01:51.Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?
:01:52. > :01:57.All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by
:01:58. > :02:03.Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the
:02:04. > :02:07.government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic
:02:08. > :02:13.recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy
:02:14. > :02:18.prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last
:02:19. > :02:21.few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to
:02:22. > :02:26.readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that
:02:27. > :02:31.we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,
:02:32. > :02:36.people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were
:02:37. > :02:44.saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?
:02:45. > :02:49.Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be
:02:50. > :02:55.up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5
:02:56. > :03:00.million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre
:03:01. > :03:05.of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That
:03:06. > :03:09.was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were
:03:10. > :03:14.winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of
:03:15. > :03:19.living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about
:03:20. > :03:28.the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has
:03:29. > :03:35.been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes
:03:36. > :03:39.packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are
:03:40. > :03:45.with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.
:03:46. > :03:51.Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the
:03:52. > :03:54.triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That
:03:55. > :03:59.is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have
:04:00. > :04:03.stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,
:04:04. > :04:09.people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were
:04:10. > :04:16.talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have
:04:17. > :04:20.forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than
:04:21. > :04:25.it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national
:04:26. > :04:30.debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You
:04:31. > :04:37.are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on
:04:38. > :04:42.this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the
:04:43. > :04:46.foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne
:04:47. > :04:51.is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,
:04:52. > :04:56.it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel
:04:57. > :05:01.duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not
:05:02. > :05:06.changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for
:05:07. > :05:13.growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for
:05:14. > :05:19.giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of
:05:20. > :05:25.giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the
:05:26. > :05:30.headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were
:05:31. > :05:36.always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly
:05:37. > :05:41.better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably
:05:42. > :05:47.better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is
:05:48. > :05:51.basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business
:05:52. > :06:00.investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20%
:06:01. > :06:04.devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.
:06:05. > :06:12.Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate
:06:13. > :06:16.about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not
:06:17. > :06:21.technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in
:06:22. > :06:28.terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about
:06:29. > :06:34.the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.
:06:35. > :06:39.So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?
:06:40. > :06:44.Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they
:06:45. > :06:50.are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no
:06:51. > :06:54.economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.
:06:55. > :07:02.That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves
:07:03. > :07:05.to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this
:07:06. > :07:07.evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the
:07:08. > :08:01.first time. Take a look at this. Well, you might not think exports
:08:02. > :08:06.unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They
:08:07. > :08:11.are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.
:08:12. > :08:14.We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why
:08:15. > :08:21.the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing
:08:22. > :08:25.the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips
:08:26. > :08:30.produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the
:08:31. > :08:36.Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London
:08:37. > :08:42.will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at
:08:43. > :08:45.all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been
:08:46. > :08:49.doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.
:08:50. > :08:57.I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British
:08:58. > :09:03.exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In
:09:04. > :09:08.20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational
:09:09. > :09:12.services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our
:09:13. > :09:17.strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can
:09:18. > :09:21.do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from
:09:22. > :09:28.something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one
:09:29. > :09:32.stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we
:09:33. > :09:38.exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to
:09:39. > :09:47.Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of
:09:48. > :09:53.Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange
:09:54. > :09:56.for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he
:09:57. > :10:03.has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip, we
:10:04. > :10:09.have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This
:10:10. > :10:13.trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of
:10:14. > :10:16.London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the
:10:17. > :10:22.date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.
:10:23. > :10:26.It is awkward to deal with that, all in the name of getting up to where
:10:27. > :10:33.we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month
:10:34. > :10:40.after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is
:10:41. > :10:44.difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes
:10:45. > :10:47.to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific, but
:10:48. > :10:52.when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,
:10:53. > :10:59.they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is
:11:00. > :11:03.very important. High-level delegations from other countries go
:11:04. > :11:15.to these places because the addict -- because they are important export
:11:16. > :11:19.markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,
:11:20. > :11:24.and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy
:11:25. > :11:30.cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in
:11:31. > :11:34.Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all
:11:35. > :11:40.sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above
:11:41. > :11:47.the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that
:11:48. > :11:51.on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now
:11:52. > :11:59.and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he
:12:00. > :12:02.may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,
:12:03. > :12:10.from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts
:12:11. > :12:15.that should be looked at. The 40p rate comes in at quite a low level
:12:16. > :12:19.for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.
:12:20. > :12:26.They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The
:12:27. > :12:30.Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the
:12:31. > :12:35.40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer
:12:36. > :12:42.and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good
:12:43. > :12:44.hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or
:12:45. > :12:50.increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn
:12:51. > :12:57.Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the
:12:58. > :13:02.year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot
:13:03. > :13:07.complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's
:13:08. > :13:11.lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do
:13:12. > :13:14.they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,
:13:15. > :13:20.maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of
:13:21. > :13:25.that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins
:13:26. > :13:30.to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be
:13:31. > :13:34.assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for
:13:35. > :13:37.today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except
:13:38. > :13:40.on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and
:13:41. > :13:43.analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics
:13:44. > :13:45.special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:46. > :13:48.it's the Sunday Politics.