:00:39. > :00:47.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:48. > :00:51.coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance
:00:52. > :00:55.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he
:00:56. > :01:00.will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a
:01:01. > :01:04.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the
:01:05. > :01:09.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.
:01:10. > :01:10.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how
:01:11. > :01:17.Later in the programme: Secretary of will they
:01:18. > :01:20.Later in the programme: Secretary of State David Jones tells us that
:01:21. > :01:22.Wales is unlikely to get any extra funding to repair the damage caused
:01:23. > :01:25.by the recent bad funding to repair the damage caused
:01:26. > :01:33.be serious. Have cuts left to the service being overstretched?
:01:34. > :01:41.With me for the duration, a top trio of political pundits, Helen Lewis,
:01:42. > :01:49.Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They will be tweeting faster than France
:01:50. > :01:53.or long scoots through Paris. Nick Clegg sticks to his New Year
:01:54. > :01:57.resolution to sock it to the Tories, the is how he described Tory plans
:01:58. > :02:01.for another 12 billion of cuts on welfare after the next election.
:02:02. > :02:06.You cannot say, as the Conservatives are, that we are all in it together
:02:07. > :02:09.and then say that the welfare will not make any additional
:02:10. > :02:13.contributions from their taxes if there is a Conservative government
:02:14. > :02:19.after 2015 in the ongoing effort to balance the books. We are not even
:02:20. > :02:26.going to ask that very wealthy people who have retired who have
:02:27. > :02:30.benefits, paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a
:02:31. > :02:35.sacrifice. The Conservatives appear to be saying only the working age
:02:36. > :02:38.pork will be asked to make additional sacrifices to fill the
:02:39. > :02:43.remaining buckle in the public finances.
:02:44. > :02:49.Nick Legg eating up on the Tories a, happens almost every day. I
:02:50. > :02:55.understand it is called aggressive differentiation. Will it work for
:02:56. > :03:00.them? It has not for the past two years. This began around the time of
:03:01. > :03:05.the AV referendum campaign, that is what poisoned the relations between
:03:06. > :03:11.the parties. They have been trying to differentiation since then, they
:03:12. > :03:17.are still at barely 10% in the polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings
:03:18. > :03:22.are horrendous, so I doubt they will do much before the next election. It
:03:23. > :03:26.is interesting it has been combined with aggressive flirtation with Ed
:03:27. > :03:30.Balls and the Labour Party. There was always going to be some sort of
:03:31. > :03:36.rapprochement between them and the Labour Party, it is in the Labour
:03:37. > :03:40.Party's interests, and it is intent macro's interests, not to be defined
:03:41. > :03:45.as somebody who can only do deals with the centre-right. A colleague
:03:46. > :03:49.of yours, Helen, told me there was more talk behind closed doors in the
:03:50. > :03:55.Labour Party high command, they have to think about winning the election
:03:56. > :03:59.in terms of being the largest party, but not necessarily an overall
:04:00. > :04:02.majority. There is a feeling it was foolish before the last election not
:04:03. > :04:07.to have any thought about what a coalition might be, but the language
:04:08. > :04:12.has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I cannot deal with this man, but now,
:04:13. > :04:19.I have to be prismatic, it is about principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick
:04:20. > :04:23.Clegg had specifically said that Ed Balls was the man in politics that
:04:24. > :04:29.he hated. He said that was just a joke. Of course, it is about
:04:30. > :04:33.principles, not people! When Ed Balls said those nice things about
:04:34. > :04:38.Nick Clegg, he said, I understood the need to get a credible deficit
:04:39. > :04:43.reduction programme, although he said Nick Clegg went too far. The
:04:44. > :04:47.thing about Nick Clegg, he feels liberated, he bears the wounds from
:04:48. > :04:52.the early days of the coalition, and maybe those winds will haunt him all
:04:53. > :04:58.the way to the general election. But he feels liberated, he says, we will
:04:59. > :05:01.be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure
:05:02. > :05:05.that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have
:05:06. > :05:09.economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is
:05:10. > :05:18.attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be
:05:19. > :05:21.falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on
:05:22. > :05:26.welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will
:05:27. > :05:31.say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps
:05:32. > :05:35.taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense
:05:36. > :05:40.when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny
:05:41. > :05:47.slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib
:05:48. > :05:53.Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the
:05:54. > :05:59.public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that
:06:00. > :06:03.section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like
:06:04. > :06:08.what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who
:06:09. > :06:16.was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too
:06:17. > :06:19.nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has
:06:20. > :06:25.gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to
:06:26. > :06:29.Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for
:06:30. > :06:34.the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general
:06:35. > :06:38.elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,
:06:39. > :06:43.you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a
:06:44. > :06:50.problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has
:06:51. > :06:55.had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike
:06:56. > :07:05.and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.
:07:06. > :07:16.Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers
:07:17. > :07:24.and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.
:07:25. > :07:29.Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough
:07:30. > :07:33.talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they
:07:34. > :07:38.are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they
:07:39. > :07:44.thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his
:07:45. > :07:47.party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like
:07:48. > :07:52.everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice
:07:53. > :07:58.Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.
:07:59. > :08:04.Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up
:08:05. > :08:08.more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change
:08:09. > :08:18.them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.
:08:19. > :08:25.The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them
:08:26. > :08:28.in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job
:08:29. > :08:36.15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison
:08:37. > :08:39.Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to
:08:40. > :08:43.offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not
:08:44. > :08:48.teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is
:08:49. > :08:53.deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It
:08:54. > :08:58.helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to
:08:59. > :09:06.a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.
:09:07. > :09:09.That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,
:09:10. > :09:13.training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to
:09:14. > :09:17.ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work
:09:18. > :09:24.persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a
:09:25. > :09:28.dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the
:09:29. > :09:35.last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.
:09:36. > :09:40.Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner
:09:41. > :09:44.released in February and now managing his own store says, the
:09:45. > :09:50.point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have
:09:51. > :09:55.experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,
:09:56. > :09:58.on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of
:09:59. > :10:02.favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal
:10:03. > :10:08.conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad
:10:09. > :10:14.other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk
:10:15. > :10:17.of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of
:10:18. > :10:21.State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of
:10:22. > :10:25.policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,
:10:26. > :10:29.from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending
:10:30. > :10:33.rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from
:10:34. > :10:37.groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him
:10:38. > :10:40.is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party
:10:41. > :10:44.that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of
:10:45. > :10:50.the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is
:10:51. > :10:56.no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him
:10:57. > :10:59.too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped
:11:00. > :11:04.out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair
:11:05. > :11:09.enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where
:11:10. > :11:16.we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and
:11:17. > :11:22.privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any
:11:23. > :11:30.sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's
:11:31. > :11:40.reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.
:11:41. > :11:48.Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If you get your way, your own personal
:11:49. > :11:50.way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the
:11:51. > :11:58.European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise
:11:59. > :12:02.for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European
:12:03. > :12:08.court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our
:12:09. > :12:12.Supreme Court our Supreme Court, they can be no question of decisions
:12:13. > :12:16.over riding it elsewhere, and we have to have a situation where our
:12:17. > :12:22.laws contain a balance of rights and responsibilities. People talk about
:12:23. > :12:27.knowing their rights, but they do not accept they have responsible it
:12:28. > :12:36.is. This is what you said last September, I want to see our Supreme
:12:37. > :12:40.Court being supreme again... That is clear, but let's be honest, the
:12:41. > :12:43.Supreme Court cannot be supreme as long as its decisions can be
:12:44. > :12:49.referred to the European Court in Strasbourg. There is clearly an
:12:50. > :12:54.issue, that was raised recency -- recently. We have been working on a
:12:55. > :12:59.detailed reform plan, we will publish that in the not too distant
:13:00. > :13:02.future. What we will set out is a direction of travel for a new
:13:03. > :13:07.Conservative government that will mean wholesale change in this area.
:13:08. > :13:13.You already tried to reform the European Court, who had this
:13:14. > :13:18.declaration in 2012, do you accept that the reform is off the table?
:13:19. > :13:22.There is still a process of reform, but it is not going fast enough and
:13:23. > :13:25.not delivering the kind of change we need. That is why we will bring
:13:26. > :13:29.forward a package that for the different from that and will set a
:13:30. > :13:33.different direction of travel. We are clear across the coalition, we
:13:34. > :13:39.have a different view from our colleagues. You cannot be half
:13:40. > :13:45.pregnant on this, either our decisions from our Supreme Court are
:13:46. > :13:50.subject to the European Cup or not, in which case, we are not part of
:13:51. > :13:53.the European court. I hope you will see from our proposals we have come
:13:54. > :13:57.up with a sensible strategy that deals with this issue once and for
:13:58. > :14:04.all. Can we be part of the Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme
:14:05. > :14:08.Court be supreme? That is by point, we have to curtail the role of the
:14:09. > :14:12.court in the UK. I am clear that is what we will seek to do. It is what
:14:13. > :14:18.we will do for this country. But how? I am not going to announce the
:14:19. > :14:22.package of policies today, but we will go into the next election with
:14:23. > :14:29.a clear strategy that will curtail the role of the European Court of
:14:30. > :14:33.Human Rights in the UK. The decisions have to be taken in
:14:34. > :14:37.Parliament in this country. Are you sure that you have got your own side
:14:38. > :14:55.on this? Look at what the Attorney General says.
:14:56. > :15:07.I would be asking Strasberg a different question to that. If the
:15:08. > :15:10.best in class, he is saying is enough is enough, actually somebody
:15:11. > :15:15.in Strasberg should be asking if this has gone the way it should have
:15:16. > :15:19.done. I would love to see wholesale reform in the court tomorrow, I'm
:15:20. > :15:24.not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election
:15:25. > :15:30.with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line
:15:31. > :15:35.in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election
:15:36. > :15:41.with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We
:15:42. > :15:46.have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties, but
:15:47. > :15:50.in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind
:15:51. > :15:54.the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the
:15:55. > :15:59.Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority
:16:00. > :16:03.to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who
:16:04. > :16:08.wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I
:16:09. > :16:22.haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system
:16:23. > :16:27.for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is
:16:28. > :16:32.realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across
:16:33. > :16:36.the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when
:16:37. > :16:42.we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver
:16:43. > :16:45.renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not
:16:46. > :16:49.convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent
:16:50. > :16:56.laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed
:16:57. > :17:04.this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system
:17:05. > :17:08.I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants
:17:09. > :17:12.coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years
:17:13. > :17:19.before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think
:17:20. > :17:23.there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country
:17:24. > :17:27.to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social
:17:28. > :17:33.welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two
:17:34. > :17:37.and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European
:17:38. > :17:42.Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of
:17:43. > :17:46.opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is
:17:47. > :17:50.saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should
:17:51. > :17:56.be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another
:17:57. > :18:03.country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new
:18:04. > :18:07.2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run
:18:08. > :18:14.by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do
:18:15. > :18:20.that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or
:18:21. > :18:28.private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no
:18:29. > :18:33.clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there
:18:34. > :18:37.are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had
:18:38. > :18:43.teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is
:18:44. > :18:49.only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an
:18:50. > :18:55.example of Parc prison in Wales, a big private run prison, run by G4S,
:18:56. > :19:00.when it was first launched under the last government it had teething
:19:01. > :19:05.problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the
:19:06. > :19:10.best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company
:19:11. > :19:15.then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be
:19:16. > :19:22.thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run
:19:23. > :19:29.prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case
:19:30. > :19:33.of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been
:19:34. > :19:36.able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise
:19:37. > :19:43.got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win
:19:44. > :19:48.contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation
:19:49. > :19:53.to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.
:19:54. > :20:04.So why would you give them a 2000 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like
:20:05. > :20:10.them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition
:20:11. > :20:13.to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position
:20:14. > :20:19.that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first
:20:20. > :20:25.time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do
:20:26. > :20:31.work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I
:20:32. > :20:35.don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,
:20:36. > :20:39.three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of
:20:40. > :20:44.magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take
:20:45. > :20:49.difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut
:20:50. > :20:55.back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the
:20:56. > :21:00.moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued
:21:01. > :21:07.misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of
:21:08. > :21:13.them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including
:21:14. > :21:18.VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their
:21:19. > :21:24.own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing
:21:25. > :21:30.this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats
:21:31. > :21:33.in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,
:21:34. > :21:38.where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried
:21:39. > :21:47.hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the
:21:48. > :21:54.income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000?
:21:55. > :21:58.I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like
:21:59. > :22:10.travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for
:22:11. > :22:15.travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of
:22:16. > :22:21.figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross
:22:22. > :22:26.figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even
:22:27. > :22:37.a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need
:22:38. > :22:40.well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result
:22:41. > :22:52.well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court
:22:53. > :22:55.unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,
:22:56. > :22:59.if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no
:23:00. > :23:04.question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge,
:23:05. > :23:10.where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so
:23:11. > :23:16.many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the
:23:17. > :23:25.figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not
:23:26. > :23:32.jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures
:23:33. > :23:37.predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail
:23:38. > :23:42.has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,
:23:43. > :23:47.you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where
:23:48. > :23:52.everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will
:23:53. > :23:56.often decided to his more appropriate to give a community
:23:57. > :24:01.sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people
:24:02. > :24:08.going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail
:24:09. > :24:12.if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal
:24:13. > :24:23.avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his
:24:24. > :24:27.name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That
:24:28. > :24:33.is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn
:24:34. > :24:38.we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As
:24:39. > :24:42.of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the
:24:43. > :24:48.same offence twice within a two-year period you will go to court. You
:24:49. > :24:56.still might end up not going to jail. More and more people are going
:24:57. > :25:02.to jail. I cannot just magic another 34,000 prison places. You haven't
:25:03. > :25:06.got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,
:25:07. > :25:12.and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men
:25:13. > :25:18.in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a
:25:19. > :25:24.huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most
:25:25. > :25:28.despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and
:25:29. > :25:33.still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so
:25:34. > :25:40.this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are
:25:41. > :25:49.going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is
:25:50. > :25:56.right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying
:25:57. > :26:02.tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on
:26:03. > :26:09.average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing
:26:10. > :26:15.benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or
:26:16. > :26:20.college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not
:26:21. > :26:23.possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said
:26:24. > :26:28.there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit
:26:29. > :26:32.until you are some years down the road and have properly established
:26:33. > :26:40.yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower
:26:41. > :26:45.than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher
:26:46. > :26:50.tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place
:26:51. > :26:54.tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was
:26:55. > :27:04.in every year of the last government. The amount of tax...
:27:05. > :27:08.There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future
:27:09. > :27:12.policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this
:27:13. > :27:18.country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future
:27:19. > :27:23.plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the
:27:24. > :27:29.under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to
:27:30. > :27:34.provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.
:27:35. > :27:36.All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent
:27:37. > :27:39.need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But
:27:40. > :27:43.how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground
:27:44. > :27:44.in the run-up to the next general election.
:27:45. > :27:47.Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous
:27:48. > :27:55.year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in
:27:56. > :27:58.peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that
:27:59. > :28:05.between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be
:28:06. > :28:07.created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband
:28:08. > :28:16.promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I
:28:17. > :28:21.will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be
:28:22. > :28:25.building 200,000 homes per year, more than at any time for a
:28:26. > :28:29.generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour
:28:30. > :28:32.leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural
:28:33. > :28:37.neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to
:28:38. > :28:39.use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas,
:28:40. > :28:44.including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to
:28:45. > :28:47.boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping
:28:48. > :28:49.his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi
:28:50. > :28:56.criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the
:28:57. > :28:59.countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand
:29:00. > :29:13.new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,
:29:14. > :29:16.Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details
:29:17. > :29:19.of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me
:29:20. > :29:23.now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of
:29:24. > :29:29.house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment
:29:30. > :29:33.that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more
:29:34. > :29:39.diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater
:29:40. > :29:46.role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,
:29:47. > :29:50.but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were
:29:51. > :29:55.building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a
:29:56. > :29:59.third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so
:30:00. > :30:04.restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the
:30:05. > :30:08.land, so little land is being released for house building. I
:30:09. > :30:11.agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land
:30:12. > :30:15.market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be
:30:16. > :30:20.tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make
:30:21. > :30:24.sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access
:30:25. > :30:29.to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and
:30:30. > :30:36.finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who
:30:37. > :30:40.reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty
:30:41. > :30:48.shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are
:30:49. > :30:54.smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France
:30:55. > :31:02.is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for
:31:03. > :31:07.them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,
:31:08. > :31:16.but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us
:31:17. > :31:20.to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on
:31:21. > :31:24.that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants
:31:25. > :31:27.to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single
:31:28. > :31:33.biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great
:31:34. > :31:39.opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking
:31:40. > :31:43.the government, they say they are going to release and of public land
:31:44. > :31:48.for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are
:31:49. > :31:54.not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your
:31:55. > :31:59.leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the
:32:00. > :32:06.land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?
:32:07. > :32:11.This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say
:32:12. > :32:14.to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.
:32:15. > :32:21.In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to
:32:22. > :32:26.escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter
:32:27. > :32:34.of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of
:32:35. > :32:37.local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the
:32:38. > :32:43.homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would
:32:44. > :32:49.give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,
:32:50. > :32:52.the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase
:32:53. > :32:56.orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build
:32:57. > :33:00.houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in
:33:01. > :33:03.recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders
:33:04. > :33:07.is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the
:33:08. > :33:11.Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem
:33:12. > :33:15.with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with
:33:16. > :33:21.planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson
:33:22. > :33:25.says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make
:33:26. > :33:33.sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.
:33:34. > :33:37.They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There
:33:38. > :33:42.is a whole degree of complicity, but there is another problem before
:33:43. > :33:46.that. That is around transparency about land options. There is
:33:47. > :33:51.agricultural land that house-builders have land options on,
:33:52. > :33:55.and we do not know where that is. Where there is a need for housing,
:33:56. > :34:01.and the biggest demand is in the south-east of England, that is where
:34:02. > :34:06.many local authorities are most reluctant to do it, will you in
:34:07. > :34:10.central government take powers to force these authorities to give it?
:34:11. > :34:20.We have talked about the right to grow, we were in Stevenage
:34:21. > :34:25.recently. What we have said is we want to strengthen the hand of local
:34:26. > :34:30.authorities like Stevenage so they are not blocked every step of the
:34:31. > :34:34.way. They need 16,000 new homes, but they do not have the land supply.
:34:35. > :34:38.What about the authorities that do not want to do it? They should be
:34:39. > :34:43.forced to sit down and agree with the neighbouring authority. In
:34:44. > :34:46.Stevenage, it is estimated at ?500,000 has been spent on legal
:34:47. > :34:52.fees because North Hertfordshire is blocking Stevenage every step of the
:34:53. > :34:57.way. Michael Lyons says the national interest will have to take President
:34:58. > :35:02.over local interest. Voice cannot mean a veto. The local community in
:35:03. > :35:08.Stevenage is crying out for new homes. Do you agree? There has to be
:35:09. > :35:14.land available for new homes to be built, and in areas like Oxford,
:35:15. > :35:15.Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:16. > :35:37.interest does have to be served, with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:38. > :35:43.will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can
:35:44. > :35:48.incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new
:35:49. > :35:53.towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will
:35:54. > :35:59.have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not
:36:00. > :36:02.at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to
:36:03. > :36:06.recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big
:36:07. > :36:10.difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs
:36:11. > :36:14.Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,
:36:15. > :36:18.we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour
:36:19. > :36:25.government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing
:36:26. > :36:31.stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour
:36:32. > :36:35.government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on
:36:36. > :36:39.this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We
:36:40. > :36:44.want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you
:36:45. > :36:49.the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the
:36:50. > :36:54.next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern
:36:55. > :36:57.programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because
:36:58. > :37:06.there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got
:37:07. > :37:13.there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes
:37:14. > :37:16.in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday
:37:17. > :37:18.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week
:37:19. > :37:36.ahead with our political Hello and on the Sunday Politics
:37:37. > :37:38.Wales, is the Welsh Government making the most of the powers it
:37:39. > :37:41.already has? And could Pembrokeshire markets get
:37:42. > :37:45.cut as the local council tries to make savings?
:37:46. > :37:49.But first, the Chancellor George Osborne says 2014 will be a year of
:37:50. > :37:52.hard truths. Some say his warning last week about more spending cuts
:37:53. > :37:57.put Conservatives on an election footing. I asked Mr Osborne's
:37:58. > :38:00.Cabinet colleague David Jones, the Welsh Secretary, what are the
:38:01. > :38:08.choices facing the UK Government as the coalition begins its final full
:38:09. > :38:13.year before the general election? I think there is no doubt we do have
:38:14. > :38:17.to make hard choices. We came to power at a time when the economy was
:38:18. > :38:23.probably at its weakest position for over 70 years. Clearly, it was a
:38:24. > :38:27.major effort to get us to the position we are in now, to the
:38:28. > :38:30.position where the economy is turning the corner. Having said
:38:31. > :38:36.that, the deficit is still too high and we do now need to take further
:38:37. > :38:39.steps to reduce that deficit. What the Chancellor was talking about was
:38:40. > :38:43.be hard choices that are going to have to be made to reduce the
:38:44. > :38:52.deficit further in the years 2016 and 2017. The reason you need to
:38:53. > :38:56.keep cutting is because you have failed to make the economy grow at
:38:57. > :39:01.the rate that you envisaged? I do not think that is right at all.
:39:02. > :39:04.Quite the contrary. If you see what has happened over the last three and
:39:05. > :39:12.a half years, the economy is moving from rescue to recovery. The figures
:39:13. > :39:15.we are seeing in terms of job numbers are particularly good. We
:39:16. > :39:21.are seeing growth which is outstripping the OBR's predictions.
:39:22. > :39:28.In the three and a half years since we took power, we have made
:39:29. > :39:32.remarkable strides. But the fact is the deficit is still Burma. The
:39:33. > :39:36.choices we are going to have to make are going to be choices that will
:39:37. > :39:44.reduce that deficit -- the choices are still there. People will have to
:39:45. > :39:50.decide whether they will want to elect a prudent Conservative
:39:51. > :39:54.administration or a Labour Party administration which is moving back
:39:55. > :39:57.from stringency to a position where they are saying, we cannot move
:39:58. > :40:03.ahead so quickly with the necessary spending reductions. The Chancellor
:40:04. > :40:08.talks about ?25 billion worth of cuts in the first two years after an
:40:09. > :40:11.election. ?12 billion of cuts from welfare. When will people hear from
:40:12. > :40:18.you where exactly you will make those cuts? Those are cuts that we
:40:19. > :40:22.are preannouncing before the general election. We are making a strong
:40:23. > :40:29.signal that as we move closer to the general election, those
:40:30. > :40:35.announcements will be made. We will have to see legislation in the
:40:36. > :40:38.course of this Parliament to effect both spending reductions. Over the
:40:39. > :40:43.next 12 months, we will be seeing a lot more flesh on the bone. Do you
:40:44. > :40:49.agree with the Prime Minister that pensions and pension benefits should
:40:50. > :40:52.be protected? If you do, the consequences are that you are
:40:53. > :40:56.hitting some of the most vulnerable people and taking cash out of the
:40:57. > :41:00.economy, effectively. We are not taking cash out of the economy. What
:41:01. > :41:04.we intend to do is protect pensioners who are among the most
:41:05. > :41:07.vulnerable parts of our society. They are people who spent their
:41:08. > :41:11.working lives saving for their retirement and we have to make sure
:41:12. > :41:15.they have a retirement in which they can be comfortable. It means more
:41:16. > :41:20.and more of the burden falls on the working age population, on younger
:41:21. > :41:23.people. Is that fair? I would not say that. What I would point out is
:41:24. > :41:29.that more and more people are now in work as a result of, for example,
:41:30. > :41:34.increasing the tax threshold from 2015. People will on average be ?700
:41:35. > :41:38.better off than they would have been otherwise. We have taken steps to
:41:39. > :41:44.freeze fuel duty so that people are paying about 20% less per litre than
:41:45. > :41:49.they would have done if the Labour Party had still been in power. I do
:41:50. > :41:57.not think it is fair to say that all of the benefit is going to
:41:58. > :42:00.pensioners. There are plenty of people now who are significantly
:42:01. > :42:04.better off as a result of the decisions that we have made than
:42:05. > :42:08.they would have been if the Labour Party had still been in power. But
:42:09. > :42:14.there are people watching who would be worse still if you on cutting
:42:15. > :42:18.benefits. These are the tough decisions that the Chancellor is
:42:19. > :42:23.talking about. Frankly, they are decisions that are going to have to
:42:24. > :42:30.be made. The hard fact is that in 13 years, the Labour Party reduced the
:42:31. > :42:36.economy of this country to frankly the most worrying state since the
:42:37. > :42:40.1930s. We were elected to power in 2010 by the straightforward consent
:42:41. > :42:44.of the British people to restore prudence to the economy. This is
:42:45. > :42:47.what we have done. We have taken decisions that the Labour Party
:42:48. > :42:51.would not have had the courage to do and it would appear that now despite
:42:52. > :42:55.all of their talk they still like the courage to take those difficult
:42:56. > :43:01.decisions in the years ahead. Is the government united on this? We hear
:43:02. > :43:04.reports on rifts in the cabinet. The Work and Pensions Secretary for
:43:05. > :43:09.example does not agree with the Chancellor. Is that right? That is
:43:10. > :43:16.not right. The Cabinet is united in agreeing that we have to make the
:43:17. > :43:20.necessary tough decisions. In terms of the ?25 billion figure, yes, that
:43:21. > :43:26.is agreed across the Cabinet. The economy in Wales, your party would
:43:27. > :43:29.like to see income tax cut. Are you in favour of devolving income tax
:43:30. > :43:38.powers to the Welsh public? Would you like to see tax cut by the Welsh
:43:39. > :43:42.public? We have already made an announcement that we are prepared to
:43:43. > :43:47.devolve competence for income tax to the Welsh Government. You want to
:43:48. > :43:53.see that happen yourself? I have been very bullish and vociferous
:43:54. > :43:56.about this. I believe the Welsh governance should have an early
:43:57. > :44:00.referendum after the competence has been devolved to them on the issue
:44:01. > :44:03.of whether or not they should have tax varying powers. I will be
:44:04. > :44:14.campaigning strongly for a yes vote. The hard fact is that Wales is
:44:15. > :44:18.the poorest part of the UK. Therefore, Wales needs a competitive
:44:19. > :44:23.advantage. One of the ways that we can give a competitive advantage to
:44:24. > :44:27.Wales is to have a more favourable rate of income tax and that is why I
:44:28. > :44:32.will urge the Welsh Government to have an early referendum and go for
:44:33. > :44:37.a yes vote. The flooding that has hit many communities here, it has
:44:38. > :44:43.been a grim start to the New Year. Who should pay for the clean-up
:44:44. > :44:48.costs? Of course, it is a question of first of all assessing the level
:44:49. > :44:55.of damage. We have seen terrible scenes from example, Aberystwyth,
:44:56. > :45:00.but the Welsh governorate has the power in certain cases to give
:45:01. > :45:06.assistance to local authorities in the clean-up costs. It is a scheme
:45:07. > :45:13.called the Bell win scheme in England. It will be a matter for the
:45:14. > :45:16.Welsh Government to make an assessment which I hope they will do
:45:17. > :45:19.as soon as possible. I believe they are doing it. They will have to
:45:20. > :45:23.decide whether or not they will give the assistance to the Welsh local
:45:24. > :45:26.authorities. If there is extra spending in England by the UK
:45:27. > :45:32.Government to deal with the consequences of flooding there, will
:45:33. > :45:37.Wales get extra funding as a consequence? When will we find out
:45:38. > :45:41.how much? First of all, there has to be a decision made whether or not
:45:42. > :45:46.the damage sustained over the past few weeks is sufficient for any
:45:47. > :45:51.further expenditure to be made. What I would say is that if the Treasury
:45:52. > :45:54.gives extra money to the Department for Communities and Local Government
:45:55. > :46:02.in England, then there would be right consequence extra money for
:46:03. > :46:06.Wales. Just to reiterate, I do not believe there is probably going to
:46:07. > :46:10.be extra money coming to England or to Wales because both England and
:46:11. > :46:17.Wales already have the necessary reserves to make payments. Their
:46:18. > :46:20.cause by members of the European Parliament for the European
:46:21. > :46:29.government to apply to the EU for extra funds -- there are calls. The
:46:30. > :46:32.EU Solidarity fund is something triggered in exceptional cases and I
:46:33. > :46:40.believe I am right in saying that the damage we are talking about is 3
:46:41. > :46:46.billion euros worth of damage. In previous years, I think an
:46:47. > :46:51.application was made in 2007, and there was worse flooding then than
:46:52. > :46:57.recently. I doubt whether the European Solidarity fund would be
:46:58. > :47:03.resorted to on this occasion. But of course, if it were necessary, of
:47:04. > :47:05.course it would be possible for the Welsh Government to make its own
:47:06. > :47:10.representations. Thank you very much. We are going to have to leave
:47:11. > :47:13.it there. Now, it's a political fact of life
:47:14. > :47:20.that local councils are having to cut back on how much money they
:47:21. > :47:24.spend. But the financial climate means some are having to look at
:47:25. > :47:27.more radical ways of saving money, including selling off or shutting
:47:28. > :47:34.some historic town centre markets. Tomos Livingstone has been to
:47:35. > :47:38.Pemborkeshire to find out more. It is market day in Fishguard, the
:47:39. > :47:42.chance to stop up on groceries, have a cup of tea and catch up on the
:47:43. > :47:47.latest news. Today it is the future of the market itself which is under
:47:48. > :47:51.the spotlight. Like many others, it is run by the local council and in
:47:52. > :47:57.the current climate it is looking to cut back wherever it can. It is more
:47:58. > :48:01.about other things than finance, as far as I'm concerned. It is a busy
:48:02. > :48:08.market, people like to come and meet and have a cup of coffee. The people
:48:09. > :48:12.of Fishguard spend money of -- on all sorts of goods at the market. It
:48:13. > :48:19.is not all about money all of the time. That is the way I see it.
:48:20. > :48:23.Campaigners say the weekly market is a vital part of Fishguard's social
:48:24. > :48:27.fabric and it brings in much-needed cash to the local economy. But
:48:28. > :48:33.premature council like every authority in Wales is under severe
:48:34. > :48:40.pressure to save money -- Pembrokeshire council. They say it
:48:41. > :48:44.makes sense to look at every option for the future. Those options
:48:45. > :48:47.include passing control of the markets to a private operator or
:48:48. > :48:53.even shutting down altogether. The council told us he future of four
:48:54. > :49:01.markets was under review and the Cabinet will discuss what to do at a
:49:02. > :49:07.meeting next month. Traders say a closure would be a huge blow to the
:49:08. > :49:12.community. There are a lot of people like the butchers and fishmongers
:49:13. > :49:16.who have been here well over 20 years and have grown to know
:49:17. > :49:20.everyone that comes week in week out. Personally, it would be a
:49:21. > :49:24.travesty for myself and for the town in general. Every customer that
:49:25. > :49:28.comes to us at the moment is saying how quiet the town is and the
:49:29. > :49:32.busiest day of the week is the Thursday when the market is open. If
:49:33. > :49:37.the market was not here, they might not come into town at all. For a lot
:49:38. > :49:42.of people, they would not get out otherwise. You do not get to see
:49:43. > :49:46.people and talk to people a lot of the time. Having somewhere where you
:49:47. > :49:51.can have a cup of coffee, have a chat, talk to the traders, it does
:49:52. > :49:57.not matter whether you buy or not, although we appreciate it. It gives
:49:58. > :50:01.a lot of older people, as well as youngsters, a chance to come out and
:50:02. > :50:07.see other people, have a different life to what they normally do. The
:50:08. > :50:11.body representing traders say that markets are a vital lifeline for
:50:12. > :50:16.towns across the country. It is very important. Town centres in general
:50:17. > :50:24.are struggling to keep going, to attract footfall. The market is a
:50:25. > :50:27.footfall generator. You go to most towns with a market and they will
:50:28. > :50:32.say to you that the biggest day of the week is market day. Some
:50:33. > :50:36.politicians agree that traditional town centre markets are one way to
:50:37. > :50:40.revive the high street. Out and about in Swansea market over the
:50:41. > :50:43.festive period, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives said Welsh
:50:44. > :50:48.councils had 22 learn about encouraging people to buy locally.
:50:49. > :50:52.There is an initiative in Northern Ireland where there will be free car
:50:53. > :50:56.parking across the whole of the province. That is one of the issues
:50:57. > :51:01.highlighted in the regeneration strategy. There needs to be greater
:51:02. > :51:05.access to free car parking. There needs to be a town centre manager.
:51:06. > :51:08.There needs to be a focus on business rates to help small
:51:09. > :51:11.businesses so that money is not being taken out of the businesses.
:51:12. > :51:16.We need a 24-hour culture on the high street. Pembrokeshire is not
:51:17. > :51:21.the only Welsh council adapting to the political climate, one where
:51:22. > :51:25.cash is scarce and not everyone will get a slice of the cake. Another
:51:26. > :51:28.council that at cuts to everything from paddling pools to street
:51:29. > :51:34.lighting this week. Cardiff is looking at closing recycling
:51:35. > :51:38.centres. The fear in Fishguard is that without its market it could
:51:39. > :51:40.become a ghost town. It is one example of the way that tough
:51:41. > :51:44.political decisions are having a real impact on communities up and
:51:45. > :51:47.down Wales. Tomos Livingstone reporting there.
:51:48. > :51:50.Later this week, MPs start scrutinising the Wales Bill which,
:51:51. > :51:53.among other things, sets out those new tax and borrowing powers for the
:51:54. > :51:56.Assembly. But is the Welsh Government making the most of the
:51:57. > :51:59.powers it already has? Some disappointing results in health,
:52:00. > :52:02.education and the economy have led to serious criticism of the Welsh
:52:03. > :52:05.Government's record and of the labour Party's record in power since
:52:06. > :52:13.the start of devolution. Our political editor Nick Servini has
:52:14. > :52:17.been taking a closer look. In recent weeks, the role of the
:52:18. > :52:21.Welsh Government in health, education and the economy, the
:52:22. > :52:24.pillars of our everyday lives, has come under question. These are
:52:25. > :52:29.challenges that have been with us for many years. The role of
:52:30. > :52:35.successive labour led Welsh governments since the start of
:52:36. > :52:42.devolution has also come under scrutiny. What can the past tell us
:52:43. > :52:45.about the present? We have been talking to some of the big beasts of
:52:46. > :52:49.the early years of devolution when the political landscape was very
:52:50. > :52:56.different. And when a big priority was shoring up the institution. When
:52:57. > :52:59.I think back on those first years, it was literally from my point of
:53:00. > :53:03.view as a minister, it was desperately trying to keep the
:53:04. > :53:12.institution afloat. We had a minority administration. That is why
:53:13. > :53:15.when I was a minister my priority was clearly to establish stability.
:53:16. > :53:19.That is why we realised the only way we would do that was by going into
:53:20. > :53:22.coalition with the Liberal Democrats. I think the assembly
:53:23. > :53:28.itself was born of great uncertainty, hostility amongst the
:53:29. > :53:34.electorate. That for me was a big problem. A difficult birth but the
:53:35. > :53:37.question is whether the policies that have been developed over the
:53:38. > :53:42.past 14 years have led to better public services. For many years
:53:43. > :53:48.after the beginning of devolution, we tended to get obsessed about
:53:49. > :53:52.doing things differently from England where we should have been
:53:53. > :53:57.focusing on doing things better. We should have been more focused on the
:53:58. > :54:03.outcomes of our policies than on the processes, more focused on the ends
:54:04. > :54:07.if you like, than the means. The second problem, for many years in
:54:08. > :54:10.Wales, we have not been very good at accepting what I would call
:54:11. > :54:16.constructive challenge or constructive criticism. Labour has
:54:17. > :54:20.got into bed with different parties over the years. There was a
:54:21. > :54:22.coalition with Plaid Cymru and in the beginning with the Liberal
:54:23. > :54:32.Democrats. One former partner gave his verdict. With one party in
:54:33. > :54:37.charge, clearly their domination of political thinking and philosophy is
:54:38. > :54:41.what has driven it. It is different from what happens in England. It is
:54:42. > :54:45.more centralised and controlled from the centre and deriving decisions
:54:46. > :54:50.which are perhaps old-fashioned. Those are the things I think may
:54:51. > :54:57.have held Wales back and I think we now need to be moving forward with
:54:58. > :55:02.getting some fresh ideas, fresh thinking into what we do in Wales.
:55:03. > :55:07.The Welsh Government has come out fighting. On education, it insists
:55:08. > :55:10.the system is not in crisis. On health, it claims improvement is
:55:11. > :55:16.taking place. On the economy, it points to the recent unemployment
:55:17. > :55:20.figures which put Wales's rate as the same as the UK average. All of
:55:21. > :55:25.these things have come under intense scrutiny in the past. Expect no let
:55:26. > :55:29.up as the assembly goes for even more powers in the future.
:55:30. > :55:35.And Nick Servini joins me in the studio. The last political year
:55:36. > :55:39.finished with some figures that do not reflect brilliantly on the Welsh
:55:40. > :55:44.Government's record. Does that set the tone for this year? I think it
:55:45. > :55:48.does, particularly around the education figures at the end of the
:55:49. > :55:51.last year. We had a clutch of indicators and as a result there was
:55:52. > :55:56.a lot of debate about this. Inevitably, it will dominate things
:55:57. > :56:00.this year. As much as anything, one of the features last year was the
:56:01. > :56:04.extent to which David Cameron used the performance of the Welsh NHS as
:56:05. > :56:08.a kind of political football at Westminster. What I am talking about
:56:09. > :56:14.there, criticising it at Prime Minister's Questions on a regular
:56:15. > :56:17.basis. One of the questions is whether that will broaden out into
:56:18. > :56:23.some of the other areas. In the autumn I spoke to an insider in the
:56:24. > :56:27.Conservative Party who told me David Cameron was reluctant to criticise
:56:28. > :56:30.the education system in Wales too much because he did not want to be
:56:31. > :56:34.seen to be too negative about the life chances of young people in
:56:35. > :56:38.Wales. I suspect and common sense would tell us as we march towards a
:56:39. > :56:40.very tight general election, it could get fairly brutal and the
:56:41. > :56:45.performance of the Welsh Government is likely to come under scrutiny. It
:56:46. > :56:50.will be talked about at a wider level across the UK as a result. It
:56:51. > :56:54.has a ready started. We had waiting times figures this week. Yes. These
:56:55. > :56:59.are the referral to treatment after people have seen a GP. It is more
:57:00. > :57:03.than 13,000 people, the highest it has been for a number of years.
:57:04. > :57:08.People waiting more than nine months as a result of that. It has started
:57:09. > :57:15.already and I think one of the big tests for the Welsh, will be whether
:57:16. > :57:18.it can communicate its message -- tests for the Welsh Government will
:57:19. > :57:24.be whether it can communicate its message about reforms in the NHS and
:57:25. > :57:26.whether it can impact on some of the performance indicators. An early
:57:27. > :57:31.indication of this is when the results of the big reconfiguration
:57:32. > :57:38.of services for casualty departments in hospitals in South Wales will be
:57:39. > :57:42.announced. Thank you. Time now for a quick look back at
:57:43. > :57:52.some of the political stories of the week in 60 Seconds.
:57:53. > :57:58.An MP called for tougher sentences for motorists convicted of driving a
:57:59. > :58:08.sentences -- driving offences which caused death or serious injury. At
:58:09. > :58:10.Welsh questions, the Secretary of State David Jones paid tribute to
:58:11. > :58:15.the Conservative peer who died before Christmas. He said the former
:58:16. > :58:18.Welsh office minister had served with distinction for many years and
:58:19. > :58:23.was a champion for Wales and the Welsh language. The chief executive
:58:24. > :58:27.of the NHS and Wales announced he would be standing down at the end of
:58:28. > :58:30.March. He said he had mixed feelings about the decision to move to a new
:58:31. > :58:34.role with the health service in the East Midlands.
:58:35. > :58:38.And as this man the first political casualty of the year? David Jones
:58:39. > :58:43.was ousted as the leader of Powys county council when he lost a
:58:44. > :58:49.no-confidence vote. The former council chairman was chosen as his
:58:50. > :58:53.successor. Nick is still with me. The assembly
:58:54. > :58:57.is backing this coming week. Very soon local councils will be on the
:58:58. > :59:01.agenda. You have touched on it already. The week after next, we are
:59:02. > :59:05.expecting the results of the Williams commission which is looking
:59:06. > :59:10.at public service delivery across the board. The real expectation is
:59:11. > :59:13.that it will fire the starting gun on local government reorganisation.
:59:14. > :59:16.Last time it happened was nearly 20 years ago. I think we will have a
:59:17. > :59:24.big debate about old-fashioned lines in the map and what we will end up
:59:25. > :59:27.with is a big big change to the 22 unitary authorities currently under
:59:28. > :59:32.way. Big debates about how much it will cost. What does it mean for the
:59:33. > :59:36.150,000 people who work for local government in Wales? What does it
:59:37. > :59:41.mean for council taxpayers? What does it mean for the services local
:59:42. > :59:44.authorities deliver? Some of the talk is whether it could be quite a
:59:45. > :59:53.radical change, down to a fairly small number of local authorities to
:59:54. > :59:56.mirror the health boards in Wales. Particularly in the realms of social
:59:57. > 0:53:02care, some people say if you can connect them up with the health
0:53:03 > 0:53:02boards, there is the potential for huge savings will stop generally, if
0:53:03 > 0:53:02you can cut back on the overheads. -- potential for huge savings.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Generally, if you can cut back on the overheads, people say that the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02local authorities are too small and you do not get the economies of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02scale. Thank you very much. I hope you can
0:53:03 > 0:53:02scale. Thank you very much. I hope you can
0:53:03 > 0:53:02scale. Thank you very much. I hope will not be revoked. And I wouldn't
0:53:03 > 0:53:02want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed
0:53:03 > 0:53:02this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically
0:53:03 > 0:53:02elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with
0:53:03 > 0:53:02a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural
0:53:03 > 0:53:02body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force
0:53:03 > 0:53:02-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we
0:53:03 > 0:53:02signed up to it and came in in 1973. It has accreted powers to itself
0:53:03 > 0:53:02without having the support of the public of the member states. This is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe
0:53:03 > 0:53:02altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an
0:53:03 > 0:53:02organisation that does some coordination and that has trade
0:53:03 > 0:53:02agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not
0:53:03 > 0:53:02to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have
0:53:03 > 0:53:02ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our
0:53:03 > 0:53:02own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming
0:53:03 > 0:53:02from anywhere other than the EU. There is a big decrease in the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures
0:53:03 > 0:53:02are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we
0:53:03 > 0:53:02can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we
0:53:03 > 0:53:02need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But
0:53:03 > 0:53:02there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom
0:53:03 > 0:53:02about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming
0:53:03 > 0:53:02here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are
0:53:03 > 0:53:02behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your
0:53:03 > 0:53:02benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that
0:53:03 > 0:53:02might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not? We
0:53:03 > 0:53:02have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied
0:53:03 > 0:53:02us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every
0:53:03 > 0:53:02piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It
0:53:03 > 0:53:02would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can
0:53:03 > 0:53:02not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised
0:53:03 > 0:53:02that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national
0:53:03 > 0:53:02vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French
0:53:03 > 0:53:02will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How
0:53:03 > 0:53:02could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes
0:53:03 > 0:53:02mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes
0:53:03 > 0:53:02mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as
0:53:03 > 0:53:02an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be
0:53:03 > 0:53:02interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and
0:53:03 > 0:53:02import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single
0:53:03 > 0:53:02market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it
0:53:03 > 0:53:02will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be
0:53:03 > 0:53:02worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever
0:53:03 > 0:53:02letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood
0:53:03 > 0:53:02up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European
0:53:03 > 0:53:02law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The
0:53:03 > 0:53:02political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next
0:53:03 > 0:53:02election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off
0:53:03 > 0:53:02a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in
0:53:03 > 0:53:02coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron
0:53:03 > 0:53:02is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked
0:53:03 > 0:53:02over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a
0:53:03 > 0:53:02counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom
0:53:03 > 0:53:02other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and
0:53:03 > 0:53:02spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are
0:53:03 > 0:53:02all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational
0:53:03 > 0:53:02organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a
0:53:03 > 0:53:02political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing
0:53:03 > 0:53:02deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick
0:53:03 > 0:53:02question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way
0:53:03 > 0:53:02in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper
0:53:03 > 0:53:02meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not. PMQ
0:53:03 > 0:53:02's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house
0:53:03 > 0:53:02was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime
0:53:03 > 0:53:02ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until
0:53:03 > 0:53:02now. What is clear is that he is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy
0:53:03 > 0:53:02price freeze. The difference is, John Major is a good man, the Right
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical
0:53:03 > 0:53:02profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you
0:53:03 > 0:53:02are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband
0:53:03 > 0:53:02trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers
0:53:03 > 0:53:02questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall
0:53:03 > 0:53:02over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a
0:53:03 > 0:53:02more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron
0:53:03 > 0:53:02started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I
0:53:03 > 0:53:02would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote
0:53:03 > 0:53:02which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting
0:53:03 > 0:53:02their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I
0:53:03 > 0:53:02sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull
0:53:03 > 0:53:02as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch
0:53:03 > 0:53:02and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy
0:53:03 > 0:53:02this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,
0:53:03 > 0:53:02the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify
0:53:03 > 0:53:02substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not
0:53:03 > 0:53:02necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising
0:53:03 > 0:53:02industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been
0:53:03 > 0:53:02hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no
0:53:03 > 0:53:02money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but
0:53:03 > 0:53:02you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without
0:53:03 > 0:53:02expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will
0:53:03 > 0:53:02survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial
0:53:03 > 0:53:02state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure
0:53:03 > 0:53:02spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info
0:53:03 > 0:53:02structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the
0:53:03 > 0:53:02idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is
0:53:03 > 0:53:02something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once
0:53:03 > 0:53:02thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have
0:53:03 > 0:53:02delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to
0:53:03 > 0:53:02deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily
0:53:03 > 0:53:02Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I
0:53:03 > 0:53:02aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is
0:53:03 > 0:53:03Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.