:00:38. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:46. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:58.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:59. > :01:14.Later in the programme: First group. A donkey.
:01:15. > :01:18.Later in the programme: First Minister Carwyn Jones says the
:01:19. > :01:20.income tax powers on offer to the Assembly are "pretty much useless".
:01:21. > :15:21.He said they would not he did not make the announcement? I
:15:22. > :15:26.don't think that's right. I don't clear every word I say with him, I
:15:27. > :15:35.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:36. > :15:41.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:42. > :15:46.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:47. > :15:51.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:52. > :16:00.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:16:01. > :16:05.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:06. > :16:10.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:11. > :16:14.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:15. > :16:20.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:21. > :16:23.you for ratting on tuition fees, and that was a broken promise that
:16:24. > :16:30.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:31. > :16:38.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:39. > :16:41.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London
:16:42. > :16:43.up. If you look at our manifesto, delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:44. > :16:46.in the delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:47. > :16:48.forgiven you for the big one. delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:49. > :16:53.big promise we made was delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:54. > :17:00.income tax the millions of delivered about 70% of our policies
:17:01. > :17:06.That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of
:17:07. > :17:09.working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our
:17:10. > :17:16.economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make
:17:17. > :17:21.sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum
:17:22. > :17:26.wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit
:17:27. > :17:30.is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the
:17:31. > :17:36.confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 12
:17:37. > :17:43.months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look
:17:44. > :17:49.largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus
:17:50. > :17:54.group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I
:17:55. > :18:03.have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we
:18:04. > :18:08.are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,
:18:09. > :18:14.it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.
:18:15. > :18:20.Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than
:18:21. > :18:24.benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to
:18:25. > :18:29.have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right
:18:30. > :18:32.thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib
:18:33. > :18:38.Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the
:18:39. > :18:43.way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests
:18:44. > :18:50.of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,
:18:51. > :18:56.stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in
:18:57. > :19:04.meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 2015
:19:05. > :19:07.election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a
:19:08. > :19:12.very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the
:19:13. > :19:15.economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the
:19:16. > :19:21.problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the
:19:22. > :19:26.biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is
:19:27. > :19:30.either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative
:19:31. > :19:35.government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want
:19:36. > :19:39.us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a
:19:40. > :19:43.disaster to investment in this country. You
:19:44. > :19:46.disaster to investment in this that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:47. > :19:52.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:53. > :19:53.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:54. > :19:57.be that even if they negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:58. > :20:02.anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the
:20:03. > :20:07.markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few
:20:08. > :20:13.questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still
:20:14. > :20:17.borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people
:20:18. > :20:31.were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious
:20:32. > :20:35.concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond
:20:36. > :20:41.market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.
:20:42. > :20:46.That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather
:20:47. > :20:52.than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a
:20:53. > :20:56.bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to
:20:57. > :21:00.allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in
:21:01. > :21:02.the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because
:21:03. > :21:08.Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it
:21:09. > :21:12.was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus
:21:13. > :21:17.group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this
:21:18. > :21:23.aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the
:21:24. > :21:29.bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at
:21:30. > :21:36.RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached
:21:37. > :21:43.by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach
:21:44. > :21:52.from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in
:21:53. > :21:56.government, massive reductions... I'm not asking you about that, I'm
:21:57. > :22:05.asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to
:22:06. > :22:09.sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has
:22:10. > :22:14.38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what
:22:15. > :22:21.possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right
:22:22. > :22:30.to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is
:22:31. > :22:34.mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they
:22:35. > :22:38.might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be
:22:39. > :22:42.sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you
:22:43. > :22:48.said, but also the fact that it is a bank
:22:49. > :22:53.said, but also the fact that it is a taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:54. > :22:54.said, but also the fact that it is a retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:55. > :23:02.Rennard, ten women have accused him retail. Let me turn to Chris
:23:03. > :23:09.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:10. > :23:18.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:19. > :23:22.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:23. > :23:26.happened to a criminal standard, that there is clear there has been
:23:27. > :23:32.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:33. > :23:40.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:41. > :23:46.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:47. > :23:50.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:51. > :23:55.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:56. > :24:00.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly. We
:24:01. > :24:04.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:05. > :24:10.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:11. > :24:14.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:15. > :24:18.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:19. > :24:24.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:25. > :24:30.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:31. > :24:37.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:38. > :24:41.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:42. > :24:46.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:47. > :24:54.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:55. > :25:01.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:02. > :25:08.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:09. > :25:12.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:13. > :25:18.apology is totally unacceptable, and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:19. > :25:23.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:24. > :25:30.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:31. > :25:38.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:39. > :25:45.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:46. > :25:48.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:49. > :25:59.Nick Clegg? They Do they have the power to override
:26:00. > :26:03.decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple
:26:04. > :26:10.human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is
:26:11. > :26:27.totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --
:26:28. > :26:33.divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total
:26:34. > :26:38.nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we
:26:39. > :26:42.have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment
:26:43. > :26:47.on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid
:26:48. > :26:51.down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which
:26:52. > :26:55.asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty
:26:56. > :27:03.of confidentiality and responsibility under the data
:27:04. > :27:15.protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in
:27:16. > :27:20.a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why
:27:21. > :27:26.should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven
:27:27. > :27:30.allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not
:27:31. > :27:34.been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to
:27:35. > :27:39.continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the
:27:40. > :27:44.recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.
:27:45. > :27:51.Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris
:27:52. > :27:57.Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits. He
:27:58. > :28:02.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:03. > :28:08.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:09. > :28:15.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:16. > :28:18.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:19. > :28:24.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:25. > :28:29.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:30. > :28:41.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:42. > :28:47.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:48. > :28:52.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened
:28:53. > :28:53.proper inquiry. There was a proper this is a party, and the most
:28:54. > :28:57.important thing this is a party, and the most
:28:58. > :29:02.Rennard apologises. You this is a party, and the most
:29:03. > :29:12.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:13. > :29:19.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:20. > :29:25.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:26. > :29:41.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:42. > :29:45.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:46. > :29:49.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:50. > :29:51.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:52. > :29:54.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:55. > :29:57.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:58. > :29:59.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:30:00. > :30:01.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:02. > :30:06.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:07. > :30:10.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:11. > :30:17.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:18. > :30:21.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:22. > :30:28.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:29. > :30:38.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:39. > :30:40.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:41. > :30:45.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:46. > :30:52.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:53. > :30:55.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:56. > :30:58.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:59. > :31:09.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:10. > :31:14.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:15. > :31:17.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:18. > :31:23.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:24. > :31:27.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:28. > :31:32.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:33. > :31:37.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:38. > :31:41.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:42. > :31:49.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:50. > :31:54.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:55. > :31:56.can see what the evidence is. Obviously
:31:57. > :32:00.can see what the evidence is. will have to be classified, but on
:32:01. > :32:04.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:05. > :32:08.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:09. > :32:11.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:12. > :32:16.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:17. > :32:23.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:24. > :32:30.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:31. > :32:35.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:36. > :32:43.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:44. > :32:51.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:52. > :32:56.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:57. > :33:00.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:33:01. > :33:03.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:04. > :33:07.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:08. > :33:14.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:15. > :33:17.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:18. > :33:24.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:25. > :33:28.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:29. > :33:32.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:33. > :33:36.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:37. > :33:41.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:42. > :33:46.about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are
:33:47. > :33:51.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:52. > :33:56.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:57. > :34:00.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:01. > :34:07.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:08. > :34:13.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:14. > :34:18.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:19. > :34:23.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:24. > :34:30.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:31. > :34:33.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:34. > :34:39.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:40. > :34:44.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:45. > :34:50.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:51. > :34:54.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:55. > :34:57.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:34:58. > :35:02.you not have them on the radar? country, people will say, why did
:35:03. > :35:07.agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be
:35:08. > :35:15.subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know
:35:16. > :35:17.subject to oversight, but beanie Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on
:35:18. > :35:23.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:24. > :35:29.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:30. > :35:34.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:35. > :35:40.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:41. > :35:44.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:45. > :35:50.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:51. > :35:53.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:54. > :36:01.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:02. > :36:05.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:06. > :36:11.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:12. > :36:16.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:17. > :36:20.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:21. > :36:25.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:26. > :36:29.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We
:36:30. > :36:37.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The
:36:38. > :36:41.final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and
:36:42. > :36:45.Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not
:36:46. > :36:49.the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for
:36:50. > :36:54.the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to
:36:55. > :36:59.have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to
:37:00. > :37:02.both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday
:37:03. > :37:05.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of
:37:06. > :37:29.the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:30. > :37:34.Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: I've been talking to the
:37:35. > :37:39.First Minister Carwyn Jones about health, taxation and local
:37:40. > :37:43.government re-organisation. And is there sexism in the Cardiff
:37:44. > :37:47.Bay political culture? And we begin in Cardiff Bay where
:37:48. > :37:50.I've speaking to the First Minister, recently back from Uganda, where he
:37:51. > :37:57.saw the difference being made by aid from Wales.
:37:58. > :38:02.He says the income tax powers are useless. What a contrast with David
:38:03. > :38:08.Jones, who told this programme last week that Wales should grab those
:38:09. > :38:13.Jones, who told this programme last with the promise to deliver. The
:38:14. > :38:15.education system has slipped down and some NHS targets have been
:38:16. > :38:17.education system has slipped down missed. Has the first Minister's
:38:18. > :38:25.focus on delivery come too late? missed. Has the first Minister's
:38:26. > :38:29.the early hours of devolution, we needed to
:38:30. > :38:32.the early hours of devolution, we the emphasis on delivery is my
:38:33. > :38:38.personal emphasis. I said so in the 2011 election and that is what we
:38:39. > :38:43.are doing. Is it too late? Labour has led the Assembly since the
:38:44. > :38:47.gaining and shouldn't it have been a priority earlier?
:38:48. > :38:53.It is not as if nothing has been delivered. We had bus passes, free
:38:54. > :38:58.prescriptions. Our powers were more limited than than they are now. We
:38:59. > :39:02.now have a reasonable sweep of powers. We need more and the Silk
:39:03. > :39:07.Commission is looking at that. Now we are able to look at the shape of
:39:08. > :39:12.public service delivery in Wales. The problem in 2011 was that we
:39:13. > :39:16.finance public services in Wales but we had no control over the
:39:17. > :39:23.structure. That has changed. On the Willliams Commission we are
:39:24. > :39:28.expecting to be published tomorrow, is local government reorganisation
:39:29. > :39:31.happening because councils have failed to share services and work
:39:32. > :39:36.together in the way you wanted them to?
:39:37. > :39:39.My view is that 22 local authorities are too many and I think the
:39:40. > :39:44.structure that was put together in 1995 was unsustainable. The question
:39:45. > :39:49.now is what the Williams Commission will recommend and I look forward to
:39:50. > :39:53.the recommendations this week. Could they have avoided this if they had
:39:54. > :39:57.worked together and shared services?
:39:58. > :40:01.Know. I think it would have helped but it wouldn't be possible. I think
:40:02. > :40:04.we have capacity issues that are difficult to address.
:40:05. > :40:10.We have six local authorities who are in special measures with regard
:40:11. > :40:16.to education out of 22 and that isn't sustainable so we need to have
:40:17. > :40:19.a long, hard and honest look at all public services in Wales to make
:40:20. > :40:24.sure that the structure is far more sustainable and stronger in future.
:40:25. > :40:27.Are they paying the price for failures in public services? We know
:40:28. > :40:31.there have been issues. You only need to look at the number of
:40:32. > :40:35.authorities in special measures with education.
:40:36. > :40:39.If you look at capacity issues, I have seen them in local government.
:40:40. > :40:42.Some people will ask why we haven't done it before and we didn't have
:40:43. > :40:46.the power until the referendum in 2011. It is important we put a
:40:47. > :40:52.commission in place to look at what the future should be before taking a
:40:53. > :40:55.decision. That is what we have done. On the NHS you have had some
:40:56. > :40:59.criticism, it is fair to say, from your opponents on failures and
:41:00. > :41:04.waiting times and failing to meet your own performance targets. You
:41:05. > :41:05.said they will be reviewed. Are you shifting the goalposts because you
:41:06. > :41:09.have not... We can't review the target until we
:41:10. > :41:17.have met them We can't review the target until we
:41:18. > :41:22.Ambulance response times, in terms of the percentage
:41:23. > :41:25.Ambulance response times, in terms no logic to them but we have to meet
:41:26. > :41:29.Ambulance response times, in terms them first. People will say if we
:41:30. > :41:31.Ambulance response times, in terms try to change the about meeting
:41:32. > :41:37.them, we are changing the goalposts. I understand that. And billions
:41:38. > :41:41.times are improving and cancer waiting times, they are the same as
:41:42. > :41:46.in England. The same with other treatments. We are honest with the
:41:47. > :41:50.way we calculate these things. When it comes to referral to treatment
:41:51. > :41:55.time, in England they don't count the time between when you see the GP
:41:56. > :42:03.and a consultant. With as it is from when you leave the GP. That is when
:42:04. > :42:09.the clock starts. It is to our own depth and intent of the target but
:42:10. > :42:16.we are more honest. Detriment. -- do is to our detriment.
:42:17. > :42:19.The reason why this was raised is Mark Drakeford and I went around
:42:20. > :42:24.hospitals in Wales in the summer and doctors and nurses said they are
:42:25. > :42:30.issues where the targets. The accident and emergency target. They
:42:31. > :42:38.said there are people who stay in A for too long. I think people see
:42:39. > :42:42.waiting times and think that is the time it takes to see a doctor but
:42:43. > :42:46.that is the total time. They say they are in and they need blood
:42:47. > :42:51.tests but if we keep them in for 30 hours we can get them back out but
:42:52. > :42:56.if we, at 12 hours, so they have to be admitted, they are in hospital
:42:57. > :43:00.for three days. Sometimes it works against what most sensible people
:43:01. > :43:04.would want. We need to make sure the targets aren't detrimental.
:43:05. > :43:10.Do you think the failure to hit targets or people having a poor
:43:11. > :43:15.experience of the NHS is stopping you from winning the argument on the
:43:16. > :43:18.need to reorganise hospitals? I don't buy this argument that most
:43:19. > :43:21.people in Wales have a bad experience of the NHS. We know that
:43:22. > :43:27.more than 90% of people are happy with the service. Over Christmas,
:43:28. > :43:35.people said to me, I was in the hospital the other day and it was
:43:36. > :43:39.marvellous. In many ways, it is true to say the vast majority of people
:43:40. > :43:42.get excellent service in the NHS but sometimes that doesn't happen. What
:43:43. > :43:50.is key is to investigate what happens. So the NHS isn't failing,
:43:51. > :43:52.despite waiting times? The NHS is not failing.
:43:53. > :43:57.It is not failing. The vast majority of people by far and excellent
:43:58. > :44:02.service from the NHS but that doesn't mean things can't improve.
:44:03. > :44:06.That is why we have put in place a programme to improve things but I
:44:07. > :44:08.don't buy the idea that the NHS in Wales is failing. Don't think that
:44:09. > :44:13.is correct and the vast majority of Wales is failing. Don't think that
:44:14. > :44:17.experience of the NHS. There is room for improvement.
:44:18. > :44:19.experience of the NHS. There is room Tomorrow you will be giving evidence
:44:20. > :44:22.to the Welsh affairs committee on the Wales
:44:23. > :44:24.to the Welsh affairs committee on borrowing powers that you have
:44:25. > :44:31.wanted for so long. Also income tax powers that you are less and
:44:32. > :44:37.wanted for so long. Also income tax you a way to raise money to pay back
:44:38. > :44:40.the money you could borrow. It is true that we could borrow more money
:44:41. > :44:45.if we had those powers but there are problems. We are underfunded.
:44:46. > :44:51.If we took on board income tax powers, the funding would be there
:44:52. > :44:54.for ever and a day. If we said to Whitehall they needed to address the
:44:55. > :45:00.underfunding, they would tell us to raise the money themselves.
:45:01. > :45:04.Secondly, the way they've proposed income tax would be developed which
:45:05. > :45:08.means we can't do anything altering rates. If you reduce income tax in
:45:09. > :45:14.one tax band, you have to change it in all tax bands. It is like buying
:45:15. > :45:19.a car with only one gear. It is pretty much useless. So you won't
:45:20. > :45:22.touch income tax powers until the Treasury has replaced the Barnett
:45:23. > :45:28.formula? That have to be reformed first of
:45:29. > :45:30.all and then the model needs to be far more flexible than the model
:45:31. > :45:34.we've been given. It is not what we wanted or what the
:45:35. > :45:41.Silk Commission has recommended. Because Scotland has the bottle,
:45:42. > :45:45.Wales have to have it. If you want to be imaginative in terms of using
:45:46. > :45:50.the tax system, being put in a straitjacket and being told what you
:45:51. > :45:54.can do doesn't help. There is no prospect of the Barnett
:45:55. > :45:57.formula being reformed in the short-term and this UK government or
:45:58. > :46:03.your own party. The Labour Party hasn't committed to reforming
:46:04. > :46:06.Barnett. It is being looked at but there are issues in terms of what
:46:07. > :46:12.else is going on in the UK. There needs to be a fair funding
:46:13. > :46:15.formula in place. Barnett can't last forever but no rational worse
:46:16. > :46:19.government can say we will take on board revenue raising powers when
:46:20. > :46:23.three quarters of the revenue you get as government is paid for by the
:46:24. > :46:30.Barnett for Miller. It on defenceless by ?300 million a year.
:46:31. > :46:34.The basis has to be sound. Owen Smith this week said that we
:46:35. > :46:40.shouldn't buy the notion that Barnett had ill served Wales.
:46:41. > :46:46.I think it has in the past. In the future it is not going to work. We
:46:47. > :46:50.know it is underfunded and if public spending increases in future, that
:46:51. > :46:55.underfunding will increase. It has served us well in the past but it is
:46:56. > :46:57.34 years old and it is time for it to be reviewed.
:46:58. > :47:01.As I discussed with the First Minister, there has been plenty of
:47:02. > :47:04.criticism here in Wales about the way public services are run. But is
:47:05. > :47:08.the number of councils delivering those services part of the problem?
:47:09. > :47:11.Carwyn Jones thinks that 22 councils is too many for a country the size
:47:12. > :47:13.of Wales, and tomorrow's Williams Commission report is expected to say
:47:14. > :47:23.that Commission report is expected to say
:47:24. > :47:24.been to the Rhymney Valley to Commission report is expected to say
:47:25. > :47:29.history is any guide. Commission report is expected to say
:47:30. > :47:32.Wherever you are in Wales, the past is never
:47:33. > :47:34.Wherever you are in Wales, the past that make up the present county of
:47:35. > :47:40.Caerphilly have seen their ups and downs start here at the Museum in
:47:41. > :47:48.new Tredegar, they record live through the ages. The new exhibition
:47:49. > :47:55.concentrates on life in the 70s. Emma Watson showed me around. The
:47:56. > :47:57.pits have closed. The sense of community is still very strong
:47:58. > :48:01.there. Barclays has changed a lot from the
:48:02. > :48:11.photograph we can see here that it has recently undergone regeneration.
:48:12. > :48:16.A lot of people coming in felt very nostalgic, seeing these, especially
:48:17. > :48:21.in the pubs and clubs, of people that they recognise and family
:48:22. > :48:24.members. A lot of people say the community feeling is still strong.
:48:25. > :48:30.That have sustained the towns and villages that make up Caerphilly
:48:31. > :48:34.through good times and bad. The political map of Caerphilly has
:48:35. > :48:39.changed over the years, two. When this cuddly rear-wheel was turning
:48:40. > :48:47.in the 1970s, these communities were part of the Glamorgan. -- when this
:48:48. > :48:50.colliery real. Tomorrow a government report will say we have too many
:48:51. > :48:59.councils and most of them should merge. Caerphilly County which the
:49:00. > :49:04.about to disappear -- could be about to disappear. In fact, it looks like
:49:05. > :49:09.the 70s model, when there were eight county councils, is back in fashion.
:49:10. > :49:14.The Welsh government has resisted turning back the clock but if there
:49:15. > :49:17.were changes, would-be Labour administration get support the other
:49:18. > :49:21.parties? The important thing is we have the
:49:22. > :49:25.National Assembly and we have a Welsh government. That has happened
:49:26. > :49:28.since the restructuring of local government and we have to look at
:49:29. > :49:35.what can be delivered nationally, what can be delivered in the region
:49:36. > :49:38.and what can be delivered locally. Then when we look at the delivery of
:49:39. > :49:44.those services, the structures fall into place.
:49:45. > :49:46.I am prepared to support reconfiguration of local gunmen in
:49:47. > :49:50.Wales if we get it right and that means having councils that are
:49:51. > :49:56.representative of a fair voting system. We need to make sure that we
:49:57. > :50:00.have the costs under control solely understand what the costs are and
:50:01. > :50:06.they sure that service delivery is going to be maintained.
:50:07. > :50:11.I'm saying let's look at all the options and make sure we don't rush
:50:12. > :50:14.into a reorganisation which not only may not deliver the sort of benefit
:50:15. > :50:18.people are expecting, it would also cost money and it would also wipe
:50:19. > :50:23.off the map some areas of Wales which people identify with. You have
:50:24. > :50:26.to be careful with people 's sense of identity.
:50:27. > :50:29.The mechanics of cutting the number of councils isn't simple. There are
:50:30. > :50:34.cost involved and there will be job losses. Some don't think the Cox
:50:35. > :50:38.will turn smoothly. It is fraught with risk and it
:50:39. > :50:43.will turn smoothly. massive object management exercise.
:50:44. > :50:47.It is open to potential drift and in that, services could interior rate
:50:48. > :50:54.and staff morale could go down. The potential for it is during this
:50:55. > :50:59.time. Witty, we need to have very imaginative and effective responses
:51:00. > :51:04.in order to keep and maintain local government into the future.
:51:05. > :51:08.Some people will say it doesn't matter whether they live in mid
:51:09. > :51:13.Glamorgan, Caerphilly, Rhymney Valley or some new creation. They
:51:14. > :51:19.want to see better services and the challenge to Carwyn Jones, if he
:51:20. > :51:23.hisses ahead, will be how to explain to the public house slashing
:51:24. > :51:26.councils will make a difference to them, wherever they call home.
:51:27. > :51:29.Tomos Livingstone with that report. Joining me in studio is Lynn Pamment
:51:30. > :51:31.who's the local government and public sector partner at the
:51:32. > :51:40.accountants, Price Waterhouse Coopers. Welcome. Plenty of people
:51:41. > :51:48.saying that 22 is too many and we need a cat. Is it necessary?
:51:49. > :51:52.I think if you have seen the various reports this week and before that,
:51:53. > :51:54.22 created a number of very small authorities and that has caused
:51:55. > :52:01.problems in the delivery of services. There is an acceptance
:52:02. > :52:07.that 22 is probably too many. It feels like it is inevitable.
:52:08. > :52:10.We're talking about it and we have talked about it for ages. At what
:52:11. > :52:16.point did people think they were too small? I think it has come to the
:52:17. > :52:21.fore of late. Carwyn Jones himself has pointed to education services
:52:22. > :52:25.and how many are in special measures.
:52:26. > :52:30.There is a challenge to attract the right staff to run those services in
:52:31. > :52:35.a small geographic area. The vast government, successive
:52:36. > :52:40.governments have tried to work around that by getting councils to
:52:41. > :52:44.collaborate with I take it that hasn't worked?
:52:45. > :52:46.There have been examples where collaboration has not been bad and
:52:47. > :52:53.procurement for waste has been one example. We have just not seen it on
:52:54. > :52:56.the scale that the Labour government had envisaged when it talked about
:52:57. > :53:03.collaboration. We certainly haven't seen that happen in practice.
:53:04. > :53:06.Why is that? I think there is quite a few
:53:07. > :53:13.challenges in terms of collaboration. The challenge in
:53:14. > :53:17.terms of service delivery and it is not true to say that all 22 are
:53:18. > :53:18.delivering the same service to the same criteria and if they were, that
:53:19. > :53:22.would make same criteria and if they were, that
:53:23. > :53:24.That is not what we same criteria and if they were, that
:53:25. > :53:32.practice so some of the larger scale same criteria and if they were, that
:53:33. > :53:33.off the ground, like Caerphilly collaborating on
:53:34. > :53:45.off the ground, like Caerphilly is difficult when you have one
:53:46. > :53:50.overspending and one understanding. But those issues aren't going to go
:53:51. > :53:55.away by merging councils. You have to confront these things there going
:53:56. > :53:57.to the upheaval. There will be upheaval with the
:53:58. > :54:03.local government organisation and with that some of the issues around
:54:04. > :54:07.so this standards and criteria will have to be tackled but there is a
:54:08. > :54:12.brisk local government with the reorganisation as a way to achieve
:54:13. > :54:17.the savings but that isn't what we are going to see in practice.
:54:18. > :54:23.They are not going to dodge a bullet here?
:54:24. > :54:28.Austerity will still be here for the long-term and public sector cuts
:54:29. > :54:30.will be here and need to be innovative and think about what
:54:31. > :54:35.local authorities are there to deliver and how they deliver them.
:54:36. > :54:41.That agenda will still be there and there is a risk that they could take
:54:42. > :54:44.the eye off the ball for a while and there is a need to be innovative on
:54:45. > :54:49.service delivery if they are going to succeed. We are going to have to
:54:50. > :54:52.leave it there. Thank you very much for coming in.
:54:53. > :54:54.Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:54:55. > :55:05.week in 60 seconds. Plaid Cymru said junior doctors who
:55:06. > :55:12.decided to work in Wales could have their student debt paid off if the
:55:13. > :55:21.party get into power. Lyn Jones said they would also guarantee places at
:55:22. > :55:24.ethical school for Welsh students. Mark Drakeford said he wanted to
:55:25. > :55:27.prioritise resources on proven treatment and patients with the
:55:28. > :55:31.greatest need. He said a fifth of the work done by the NHS doesn't
:55:32. > :55:37.unfit patients and could actually cause harm. Andrew RT Davies called
:55:38. > :55:42.on councils not to increase fees for sport pitches and facilities. He
:55:43. > :55:45.said some sports clubs could close or reduce activities of local
:55:46. > :55:50.authorities went ahead with price hikes. Assembly Members appealed to
:55:51. > :55:52.the Welsh Rugby union and the four Rugby regions to sort out their
:55:53. > :55:57.differences. Shadow sports Minister Mohammad
:55:58. > :56:05.Asghar said AM 's could act as independent brokers to end the
:56:06. > :56:09.dispute. Another story making the headlines
:56:10. > :56:12.across the UK this week has been the allegations against Lord Rennard.
:56:13. > :56:15.Nick Clegg said the Liberal Democrats' former chief executive
:56:16. > :56:17.should be barred from the parliamentary party until he
:56:18. > :56:22.apologises to women who claim they've been sexually harassed. The
:56:23. > :56:29.move was recommended by an internal inquiry but Lord Rennard denies any
:56:30. > :56:31.wrongdoing. One of the women wanting an apology is the deputy
:56:32. > :56:35.the Liberal Democrats' federal executive - Welsh activist Alison
:56:36. > :56:38.Goldsworthy. She's also raised concerns about sexism in politics at
:56:39. > :56:45.both ends of the M4. She says politics has
:56:46. > :56:48.both ends of the M4. She says isn't immune. Joining me is the
:56:49. > :56:58.Labour AM and former MP Julie Morgan. Julie, Alison Goldsworthy
:56:59. > :57:03.says politics stinks. Do you agree with that? I think
:57:04. > :57:08.unconscious sexism operates in all organisations, including politics
:57:09. > :57:15.but my experience in Cardiff Bay is better than Westminster. When I went
:57:16. > :57:22.to was Mr in 1997, some of the experiences that were horrendous. --
:57:23. > :57:26.Westminster in 1997. When you stood up in the chamber and tried to talk
:57:27. > :57:32.about breast-feeding or you try to talk about something as ordinary as
:57:33. > :57:41.childcare, they would be efforts made to undermine you comment about
:57:42. > :57:44.your appearance and all that kind of thing which was very undermining. It
:57:45. > :57:49.has got better there since. You think the Assembly has jettisoned
:57:50. > :57:52.that baggage and is a much more equal environment?
:57:53. > :57:58.It is definitely more equal than Westminster. Westminster has
:57:59. > :58:03.improved but having women who are elected and having a higher
:58:04. > :58:08.percentage of elected we met -- elected women is better.
:58:09. > :58:14.You are able to raise any issue, I feel, in the chamber without there
:58:15. > :58:18.being a sexist response. I didn't feel that in Westminster. I think
:58:19. > :58:23.things are better in the Assembly but I'm not denying there may be
:58:24. > :58:31.unconscious sexism operating, as it does everywhere. Part of the success
:58:32. > :58:43.is there have been more female AM starts. -- more female AM 's.
:58:44. > :58:48.The Labour Party had twinning when the Assembly started and I think
:58:49. > :58:53.that was quite a difficult process to make happen. Quite a lot of
:58:54. > :58:57.opposition. It started off the Assembly in a good way. The numbers
:58:58. > :59:03.have slipped since then and it does seem to me you have to carry on with
:59:04. > :59:07.these measures. You have to keep ensuring that women are there and
:59:08. > :59:12.they are in the prominent public elected places because that means it
:59:13. > :59:15.is less likely to have this sexism which unfortunately seems to operate
:59:16. > :59:19.in every organisation. What is your party doing about it
:59:20. > :59:24.and what are your selection besiegers for 2016? --
:59:25. > :59:28.and what are your selection procedures. We are having all
:59:29. > :59:31.short list and I hope we will be having them for 2016.
:59:32. > :59:34.We used twinning originally but having them for 2016.
:59:35. > :59:37.is difficult when you have got Assembly members already in seats. I
:59:38. > :59:40.am firmly Assembly members already in seats. I
:59:41. > :59:45.women short lists Assembly members already in seats. I
:59:46. > :59:52.keep up. We have an equal level of men and women in Labour. I will be
:59:53. > :59:57.supporting those measures in 2016 and they are already in place for
:59:58. > :00:05.2015. Do you think he will counter assistants? -- you will encounter
:00:06. > :00:10.resistance? People do say that women had to get in on their own merit but
:00:11. > :00:16.if you look at the history, there has only ever been 13 female MPs and
:00:17. > :00:21.don't tell me there is not more than that number capable of being MPs
:00:22. > :00:23.than that! History tells us that we have to take these measures.
:00:24. > :00:34.houses being built by the mayor. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.
:00:35. > :00:39.Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of
:00:40. > :00:43.the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first
:00:44. > :00:45.appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in
:00:46. > :01:16.action. APPLAUSE
:01:17. > :01:19.Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving
:01:20. > :01:25.for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into
:01:26. > :01:36.the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful. Now
:01:37. > :01:39.the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what
:01:40. > :01:42.about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed
:01:43. > :01:48.Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the
:01:49. > :01:53.programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering
:01:54. > :01:57.her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the
:01:58. > :02:03.local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,
:02:04. > :02:07.can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next
:02:08. > :02:13.series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there
:02:14. > :02:17.is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local
:02:18. > :02:23.MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.
:02:24. > :02:32.They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big
:02:33. > :02:34.opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity
:02:35. > :02:38.television she have been on a celebrity
:02:39. > :02:42.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:43. > :02:45.money for a good cause. I do not her spare time and it is raising
:02:46. > :02:50.think we should eat two sniffy about her spare time and it is raising
:02:51. > :02:57.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:58. > :03:05.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:06. > :03:12.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:13. > :03:16.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:17. > :03:19.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:20. > :03:27.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:28. > :03:32.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:33. > :03:37.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:38. > :03:42.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:43. > :03:47.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:48. > :03:50.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:51. > :03:54.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:55. > :04:00.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:04:01. > :04:10.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:11. > :04:13.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:14. > :04:19.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:20. > :04:23.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:24. > :04:28.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:29. > :04:35.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:36. > :04:40.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:41. > :04:43.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:44. > :04:50.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:51. > :04:55.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:56. > :05:01.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:02. > :05:07.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:08. > :05:12.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:13. > :05:17.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:18. > :05:23.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:24. > :05:27.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:28. > :05:31.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said
:05:32. > :05:34.have a minister for the north-east, Does this mean that Portsmouth is
:05:35. > :05:40.have a minister for the north-east, more deprived economic late than the
:05:41. > :05:40.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:41. > :05:43.The Labour marginal seat.
:05:44. > :05:45.morning and he outlined marginal seat.
:05:46. > :05:48.a Labour government for an annual marginal seat.
:05:49. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had
:05:50. > :05:51.competition audit. Here is what he government will have an annual
:05:52. > :05:56.competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them
:05:57. > :06:01.will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,
:06:02. > :06:06.setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit
:06:07. > :06:09.consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next
:06:10. > :06:14.election as the party of competition, the party of the
:06:15. > :06:18.consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.
:06:19. > :06:22.They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the
:06:23. > :06:26.next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the
:06:27. > :06:31.party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the
:06:32. > :06:35.party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual
:06:36. > :06:41.competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling
:06:42. > :06:46.banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller
:06:47. > :06:51.ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that
:06:52. > :06:54.this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who
:06:55. > :06:57.think that through interfering with the market, through his price
:06:58. > :07:03.freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this
:07:04. > :07:09.before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise
:07:10. > :07:14.of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is
:07:15. > :07:21.creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets.
:07:22. > :07:26.Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work.
:07:27. > :07:32.There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.
:07:33. > :07:36.Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in
:07:37. > :07:42.those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were
:07:43. > :07:46.suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In
:07:47. > :07:50.the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.
:07:51. > :07:56.That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector, our
:07:57. > :08:00.bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into
:08:01. > :08:05.account the become unaffordable. He has to make the case that consumers
:08:06. > :08:11.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:12. > :08:17.is not about state intervention, but about making markets work. The piece
:08:18. > :08:21.that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and
:08:22. > :08:25.the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in
:08:26. > :08:32.the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets
:08:33. > :08:38.to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning.
:08:39. > :08:41.Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:42. > :08:46.the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:47. > :08:55.seen as the party of business. competing against the big six. In
:08:56. > :09:00.banking, competing against the big six. In
:09:01. > :09:05.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:06. > :09:10.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:11. > :09:15.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:16. > :09:19.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:20. > :09:24.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:25. > :09:32.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:33. > :09:40.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:41. > :09:46.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:47. > :09:51.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:52. > :09:57.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:58. > :10:02.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:03. > :10:08.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:09. > :10:13.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:14. > :10:18.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it? It
:10:19. > :10:25.is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay
:10:26. > :10:29.marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded
:10:30. > :10:33.retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think
:10:34. > :10:39.he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots
:10:40. > :10:46.of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting
:10:47. > :10:50.with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several
:10:51. > :10:56.layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is
:10:57. > :11:00.saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called
:11:01. > :11:06.the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the
:11:07. > :11:16.party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is
:11:17. > :11:21.left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP
:11:22. > :11:27.because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it
:11:28. > :11:33.turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their
:11:34. > :11:37.mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a
:11:38. > :11:40.protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people
:11:41. > :11:47.saying with the elite. You will get people
:11:48. > :11:49.the entire political with the elite. You will get people
:11:50. > :11:57.I am not sure with the elite. You will get people
:11:58. > :12:01.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:02. > :12:07.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:08. > :12:12.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:13. > :12:15.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:16. > :12:21.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice, the
:12:22. > :12:25.first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a
:12:26. > :12:30.conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David
:12:31. > :12:34.Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I
:12:35. > :12:42.think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the
:12:43. > :12:46.only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice
:12:47. > :12:50.they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,
:12:51. > :12:54.it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this
:12:55. > :13:00.week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing
:13:01. > :13:05.between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats
:13:06. > :13:09.and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,
:13:10. > :13:20.I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the
:13:21. > :13:23.issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord
:13:24. > :13:31.Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.
:13:32. > :13:35.Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday
:13:36. > :13:38.on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,
:13:39. > :13:40.it is the Sunday Politics.