:00:37. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:45. > :00:49.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:50. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:04.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:05. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:20.And coming up here: Lib Dem AM recent years by party veterans
:01:21. > :01:24.And coming up here: Lib Dem AM William Powell is warned about
:01:25. > :01:43.inappropriate behaviour. And with me - as always - the
:01:44. > :01:45.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:46. > :01:48.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:49. > :01:51.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:52. > :02:04.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:05. > :02:11.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:12. > :02:15.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:16. > :02:19.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:20. > :02:22.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:23. > :02:26.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:27. > :02:29.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:30. > :02:31.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:32. > :02:34.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:35. > :02:37.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:38. > :02:39.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:40. > :02:41.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:42. > :02:45.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:46. > :02:55.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:56. > :03:01.deficit down, of course they do. But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:02. > :03:04.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:05. > :03:09.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:10. > :03:16.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:17. > :03:22.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:23. > :03:26.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:27. > :03:30.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:31. > :03:34.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:35. > :03:41.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:42. > :03:47.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:48. > :03:52.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:53. > :03:55.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:56. > :03:59.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:00. > :04:03.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:04. > :04:09.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:10. > :04:12.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:13. > :04:18.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:19. > :04:26.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:27. > :04:32.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:33. > :04:40.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:41. > :04:43.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:44. > :04:52.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:53. > :04:57.?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:58. > :05:02.three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget
:05:03. > :05:06.surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12
:05:07. > :05:12.billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls
:05:13. > :05:16.is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate. The
:05:17. > :05:21.contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what
:05:22. > :05:26.does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is
:05:27. > :05:29.cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question
:05:30. > :05:34.that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the
:05:35. > :05:38.Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its
:05:39. > :05:42.side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking
:05:43. > :05:48.difficult for them this morning. Does it matter if Labour has
:05:49. > :05:52.business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this
:05:53. > :05:56.announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed
:05:57. > :06:01.Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a
:06:02. > :06:07.result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not
:06:08. > :06:12.to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a
:06:13. > :06:16.measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of
:06:17. > :06:21.things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has
:06:22. > :06:27.taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI
:06:28. > :06:33.don't want us to leave business. Business is in a bit of a cleft
:06:34. > :06:36.stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls
:06:37. > :06:40.is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on
:06:41. > :06:44.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:45. > :06:50.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:51. > :06:54.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:55. > :06:59.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:00. > :07:04.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:05. > :07:09.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:10. > :07:13.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:14. > :07:15.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:16. > :07:18.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:19. > :07:21.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:22. > :07:25.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:26. > :07:30.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:31. > :07:35.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:36. > :07:38.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:39. > :07:46.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:47. > :07:50.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:51. > :07:56.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:57. > :08:02.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:03. > :08:09.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:10. > :08:13.over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of
:08:14. > :08:18.women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I
:08:19. > :08:21.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:22. > :08:30.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I
:08:31. > :08:34.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:35. > :08:38.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:39. > :08:44.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:45. > :08:47.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:48. > :08:52.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:53. > :08:57.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:58. > :09:03.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:04. > :09:07.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:08. > :09:13.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:14. > :09:18.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:19. > :09:25.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:26. > :09:28.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:29. > :09:33.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:34. > :09:38.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:39. > :09:44.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:45. > :09:49.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:50. > :09:53.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:54. > :09:56.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:57. > :10:02.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:03. > :10:06.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:07. > :10:11.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:12. > :10:14.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:15. > :10:18.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:19. > :10:23.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:24. > :10:26.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:27. > :10:30.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:31. > :10:34.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:35. > :10:37.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:38. > :10:42.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:43. > :10:46.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:47. > :10:50.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:51. > :10:55.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:56. > :11:00.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:01. > :11:04.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:05. > :11:10.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:11. > :11:16.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:17. > :11:21.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:22. > :11:24.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:25. > :11:32.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:33. > :11:35.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:36. > :11:39.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:40. > :11:42.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:43. > :11:45.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:46. > :11:53.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:54. > :11:57.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:58. > :12:03.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:04. > :12:06.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:07. > :12:09.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:10. > :12:13.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:14. > :12:17."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:18. > :12:22.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:23. > :12:26.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:27. > :12:34.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:35. > :12:42.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:43. > :12:45.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:46. > :12:51.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:52. > :12:54.democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed
:12:55. > :12:58.Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has
:12:59. > :13:06.to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it
:13:07. > :13:17.democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was
:13:18. > :13:22.voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was
:13:23. > :13:29.new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already
:13:30. > :13:34.hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long
:13:35. > :13:37.Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for
:13:38. > :13:41.them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this
:13:42. > :13:46.their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The
:13:47. > :13:49.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:50. > :13:54.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:55. > :13:59.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:00. > :14:03.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:04. > :14:07.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:08. > :14:11.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:12. > :14:15.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:16. > :14:18.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:19. > :14:23.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:24. > :14:27.threatening through his friends, these famous friends, to spill all
:14:28. > :14:31.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:32. > :14:34.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:35. > :14:39.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:40. > :14:43.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:44. > :14:48.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:49. > :14:52.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:53. > :14:55.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:56. > :14:59.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:15:00. > :15:04.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:05. > :15:08.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:09. > :15:15.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:16. > :15:20.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:21. > :15:31.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:32. > :15:35.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:36. > :15:38.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:39. > :15:41.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:42. > :15:45.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:46. > :15:47.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:48. > :15:53.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:54. > :16:00.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:01. > :16:05.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:06. > :16:08.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:09. > :16:15.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:16. > :16:23.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:24. > :16:28.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:29. > :16:31.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:32. > :16:36.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:37. > :16:48.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:49. > :16:53.me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:54. > :16:59.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:17:00. > :17:05.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:06. > :17:12.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:13. > :17:18.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:19. > :17:22.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:23. > :17:31.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:32. > :17:37.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:38. > :17:43.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:44. > :17:47.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:48. > :17:53.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending ?500
:17:54. > :17:59.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:00. > :18:05.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:06. > :18:13.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:14. > :18:18.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:19. > :18:23.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:24. > :18:30.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:31. > :18:37.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:38. > :18:51.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:52. > :18:56.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:57. > :19:00.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:01. > :19:07.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:08. > :19:22.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:23. > :19:30.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:31. > :19:35.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:36. > :19:40.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:41. > :19:50.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:51. > :19:58.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:19:59. > :20:04.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:05. > :20:06.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:07. > :20:11.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:12. > :20:17.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:18. > :20:23.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:24. > :20:26.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:27. > :20:31.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:32. > :20:40.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:41. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:46. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:46. > :20:59.government, the Ministry of transport.
:21:00. > :21:05.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:06. > :21:11.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:12. > :21:16.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:17. > :21:21.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:22. > :21:25.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:26. > :21:31.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:32. > :21:36.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:37. > :21:43.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:44. > :21:49.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:50. > :21:55.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:56. > :22:01.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:02. > :22:09.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:10. > :22:15.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:16. > :22:20.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:21. > :22:24.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:25. > :22:29.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:30. > :22:34.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you
:22:35. > :22:44.link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay
:22:45. > :22:48.for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton
:22:49. > :22:53.Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.5
:22:54. > :22:58.billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we
:22:59. > :23:11.have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for
:23:12. > :23:15.it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until
:23:16. > :23:24.the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket
:23:25. > :23:31.has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the
:23:32. > :23:46.passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who
:23:47. > :23:49.has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our
:23:50. > :23:54.railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance
:23:55. > :23:59.right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the
:24:00. > :24:08.user of public transport. I don't accept that. They are paying the
:24:09. > :24:15.same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that
:24:16. > :24:22.there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record
:24:23. > :24:27.amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a
:24:28. > :24:33.time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters
:24:34. > :24:39.particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of
:24:40. > :24:44.living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,
:24:45. > :24:59.and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered
:25:00. > :25:03.new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,
:25:04. > :25:09.they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you
:25:10. > :25:14.are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did
:25:15. > :25:19.before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It
:25:20. > :25:28.is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for. Why
:25:29. > :25:33.not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more
:25:34. > :25:38.pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we
:25:39. > :25:41.are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that
:25:42. > :25:47.is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,
:25:48. > :25:56.yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed
:25:57. > :26:01.two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your
:26:02. > :26:07.department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission
:26:08. > :26:12.to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now
:26:13. > :26:18.widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for
:26:19. > :26:24.purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it
:26:25. > :26:29.is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have
:26:30. > :26:40.extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to
:26:41. > :26:44.make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a
:26:45. > :26:58.different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.
:26:59. > :27:02.What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by
:27:03. > :27:07.Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and
:27:08. > :27:12.I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the
:27:13. > :27:17.end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the
:27:18. > :27:23.House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will
:27:24. > :27:29.get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the
:27:30. > :27:37.exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress
:27:38. > :27:44.through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have
:27:45. > :27:48.concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the
:27:49. > :27:58.line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure
:27:59. > :28:05.is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as
:28:06. > :28:08.chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are
:28:09. > :28:14.ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London
:28:15. > :28:19.we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 billion investment. There was a
:28:20. > :28:27.report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.
:28:28. > :28:36.Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in
:28:37. > :28:41.the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay
:28:42. > :28:47.people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on
:28:48. > :28:54.?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are
:28:55. > :28:59.very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we
:29:00. > :29:04.are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.
:29:05. > :29:08.It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather
:29:09. > :29:13.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:14. > :29:17.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:18. > :29:24.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:25. > :29:28.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:29. > :29:32.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:33. > :29:36.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:37. > :29:42.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:43. > :29:52.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:53. > :30:00.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:01. > :30:06.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:07. > :30:11.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:12. > :30:16.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:17. > :30:21.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:22. > :30:26.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:27. > :30:29.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:30. > :30:35.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:36. > :30:40.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:41. > :30:51.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:52. > :30:55.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:56. > :31:03.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:04. > :31:07.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:08. > :31:12.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:13. > :31:16.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st,
:31:17. > :31:21.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350,000
:31:22. > :31:27.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:28. > :31:31.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:32. > :31:36.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:37. > :31:42.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:43. > :31:46.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:47. > :31:51.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:52. > :31:56.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:57. > :32:00.principle of the European Union? We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:01. > :32:04.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:05. > :32:09.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:10. > :32:12.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:13. > :32:18.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:19. > :32:22.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:23. > :32:26.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:27. > :32:35.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:36. > :32:38.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:39. > :32:43.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:44. > :32:50.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:51. > :32:55.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:56. > :32:59.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:00. > :33:04.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:05. > :33:08.have been particularly mindless, because what they want to do
:33:09. > :33:14.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:15. > :33:21.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:22. > :33:25.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:26. > :33:29.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:30. > :33:34.to be debating before Christmas. As we speak they've not cut a deal, so
:33:35. > :33:40.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:41. > :33:45.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:46. > :33:49.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:50. > :33:53.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:54. > :33:57.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:58. > :34:01.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:02. > :34:06.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:07. > :34:11.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:12. > :34:16.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:17. > :34:21.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:22. > :34:25.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:26. > :34:29.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:30. > :34:34.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:35. > :34:39.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:40. > :34:43.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:44. > :34:48.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:49. > :34:53.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:54. > :34:58.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:34:59. > :35:04.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:05. > :35:08.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:09. > :35:12.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:13. > :35:16.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:17. > :35:24.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:25. > :35:29.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:30. > :35:34.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:35. > :35:41.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:42. > :35:45.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:46. > :35:49.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:50. > :35:54.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:55. > :36:01.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:02. > :36:06.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:07. > :36:11.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:12. > :36:16.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:17. > :36:20.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:21. > :36:25.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:26. > :36:29.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:30. > :36:34.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:35. > :36:39.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:40. > :36:47.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be --
:36:48. > :36:53.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:54. > :36:56.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:57. > :36:59.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:37:00. > :37:01.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:02. > :37:04.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:05. > :37:08.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:09. > :37:10.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:11. > :37:19.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.
:37:20. > :37:21.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:22. > :37:38.ahead with our political panel. Hello and on the Sunday Politics
:37:39. > :37:43.Wales: We'll hear from the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood on her
:37:44. > :37:48.party's ambitions. If the UK is seeing a real economic recovery, is
:37:49. > :37:53.Wales leading the way? And Labour MP Mick Antoniw tells us about his
:37:54. > :37:56.recent visit to Ukraine. But first, the Welsh Liberal
:37:57. > :38:00.Democrats have confirmed that their Assembly Member William Powell was
:38:01. > :38:03.given a formal written warning, following a complaint of
:38:04. > :38:10.inappropriate behaviour by a young female activist. The woman, now aged
:38:11. > :38:14.21, alleged that in 2011 he gave her and two other women drink, touched
:38:15. > :38:20.her leg and put his hands around her waist. Mr Powell has offered an
:38:21. > :38:26.unreserved apology. Our political editor joins me now. What more can
:38:27. > :38:30.you tell us? The party says it dealt with this matter last year and it
:38:31. > :38:35.relates to an incident concerning the Assembly Member William Powell
:38:36. > :38:43.and someone who is a member of the party, who is 21 now. It related to
:38:44. > :38:47.an incident in June 2011 in which she says she and two other women
:38:48. > :38:54.were given the strong alcoholic drink absinthe by William Powell,
:38:55. > :39:01.who then touched her leg, and, she says, inappropriately grabbed her
:39:02. > :39:06.waist. In response to that, the party is saying that she did not
:39:07. > :39:10.want to issue a formal grievance procedure and wanted to remain
:39:11. > :39:14.anonymous, but she wanted to let the party know about what has happened
:39:15. > :39:18.and as a result of that, she told the local chair of her party. Did
:39:19. > :39:24.the party have anything further to add? It says that even though it
:39:25. > :39:29.wasn't a formal grievance procedure, it treated it in that way and the
:39:30. > :39:33.Chief Whip in Cardiff Bay for the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Aled
:39:34. > :39:37.Roberts, met with William Powell and he had a formal warning and was told
:39:38. > :39:41.his behaviour was unacceptable, and that if any such behaviour on a more
:39:42. > :39:45.serious level happened, there would be more serious consequences. We've
:39:46. > :39:49.also had a statement from William Powell, in which he offered an
:39:50. > :39:52.unreserved apology and has offered to meet anyone who was offended by
:39:53. > :39:58.this incident in person or in writing as a result of that. It is
:39:59. > :40:02.further embarrassment for the Liberal Democrats, isn't it? It
:40:03. > :40:07.comes at a pretty awful time for them in terms of these stories,
:40:08. > :40:09.which have dominated the headlines in relation to the Liberal
:40:10. > :40:14.Democrats, primarily about allegations of sexual harassment
:40:15. > :40:18.either Lib Dem peer and former chief executive of the party Lord Rennard.
:40:19. > :40:23.He's been suspended by the party because he has refused to apologise
:40:24. > :40:28.for any of the claims, which he denies, made against him. There is
:40:29. > :40:34.also an incident involving Mike Hancock, a former MP for the party,
:40:35. > :40:39.with allegations of misconduct with a constituent, which he denies. And
:40:40. > :40:42.Kirsty Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, did say in
:40:43. > :40:47.a briefing last week about the party had introduced a new code of conduct
:40:48. > :40:50.for party members in Wales but that was in response to the Lord Rennard
:40:51. > :40:55.inquiry, rather than anything to do with William Powell. Thanks very
:40:56. > :40:59.much. This week saw a welcome fall in
:41:00. > :41:03.unemployment in Wales, with the rate here much lower than other parts of
:41:04. > :41:09.the UK. Downing Street also claims we are starting to feel better off,
:41:10. > :41:11.so are we seeing a real economic recovery? And if Wales is
:41:12. > :41:18.outperforming other parts of Britain, who should get the credit?
:41:19. > :41:23.After several years in neutral, it looks like the Welsh economy is on
:41:24. > :41:27.the move. Steel is being unloaded from as far-away as India, Turkey
:41:28. > :41:33.and Russia, here at Cardiff docks. The figures bear it out -
:41:34. > :41:39.unemployment in Wales is down sharply and stands at 7.2%. What's
:41:40. > :41:45.going on? Ultimately, I think it's the tax regime that he coalition
:41:46. > :41:54.government have put in place that rewards businesses that invest and
:41:55. > :41:56.expand. Things have been challenging but the government has kept interest
:41:57. > :42:00.rates low, incentivised investment in businesses and repaired the
:42:01. > :42:04.economy for the uplift we are seeing now. Nothing can be taken for
:42:05. > :42:10.granted. This is the beginning but it is a welcome beginning, with a
:42:11. > :42:14.dramatic decline in unemployment, steady interest rates for those who
:42:15. > :42:19.invest, and a spring in the step of businesses going into 2014. It seems
:42:20. > :42:24.there really is an uplift and Wales is performing particularly well.
:42:25. > :42:27.Unemployment is lower in Wales than many regions of England. That's a
:42:28. > :42:33.very different pattern from previous recoveries. Nobody is arguing with
:42:34. > :42:37.the figures but there is a political row about who should take the
:42:38. > :42:40.credit. The UK government, run by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:42:41. > :42:45.or the Welsh Government, where labour is in charge? Only some
:42:46. > :42:49.elements of economic policy are devolved but the Welsh Government
:42:50. > :42:52.says its approach, helping to keep employees on shorter hours rather
:42:53. > :42:58.than putting them out of work, for instance, are part of the mix, too.
:42:59. > :43:04.The economy minister, visiting a successful bakery this week, says
:43:05. > :43:06.devolution helped sweeten the pill when the downturn began. We've
:43:07. > :43:12.although it from previous recessions and recoveries and when everything
:43:13. > :43:16.started to hit, we look to where our policies were at that stage at what
:43:17. > :43:22.we could do to help companies keep people, even if they didn't have the
:43:23. > :43:25.work. We started initiatives and followed on and that has made a
:43:26. > :43:30.difference, since the Assembly has been in place. It's a row that is
:43:31. > :43:34.likely to dominate politics as the general election approaches. Welsh
:43:35. > :43:40.MPs had their say this week, even if things did get a bit heated. Can we
:43:41. > :43:46.be careful about language. I've heard words like misleading and so
:43:47. > :43:48.on, so can we be careful about the language we use in terms of
:43:49. > :43:53.disagreeing with other people's arguments. Experts say the devolved
:43:54. > :43:59.approach has helped keep people in work, even if it means the labour
:44:00. > :44:02.market looks a little different. I think the Welsh Government has been
:44:03. > :44:08.crippled by things in the past, perhaps unfairly. Some of the
:44:09. > :44:15.policies and procedures and their impact has helped the Welsh economy
:44:16. > :44:20.and has helped the citizens of Wales to reap some of the benefits of this
:44:21. > :44:24.recovery. But again, within Wales, when you look at the statistics
:44:25. > :44:32.there are an awful lot of part-time jobs - far more than they were at
:44:33. > :44:36.the beginning, in 2006-7. The other parties think things may be looking
:44:37. > :44:40.better on the surface but serious problems are still not being
:44:41. > :44:45.addressed. What we say in Plaid Cymru is that there is much more
:44:46. > :44:47.that needs to be done, especially in getting the young unemployed into
:44:48. > :44:52.work because that figure of youth unemployment in Wales is still
:44:53. > :44:57.stubbornly high, higher than the rest of the UK. Four times more
:44:58. > :45:01.long-term unemployed now than when the Welsh Government came into power
:45:02. > :45:06.and clearly, that's an area we need to focus on. It is still a fragile
:45:07. > :45:09.recovery but it does seem that Wales is climbing out of an economic
:45:10. > :45:13.trough. The question now is whether there will be a wider improvement in
:45:14. > :45:17.living standards and overall Welsh GDP, and whether that'll have any
:45:18. > :45:21.bearing on who we decide to vote for.
:45:22. > :45:26.My next guest says she's focused on the economy. Light can really do
:45:27. > :45:33.Leanne Wood also says 2014 should be the year Wales says yes to ambition.
:45:34. > :45:38.-- Plaid Cymru leader. She started the year with a slimmed down cabinet
:45:39. > :45:47.she says, to reflect Ostia times. Let's start with the economy. If we
:45:48. > :45:51.are going to see a real economy recovery now, given that you have
:45:52. > :45:55.been so scathing of austerity, doesn't this mean you were wrong to
:45:56. > :46:01.say that George Osborne had cut too far, too fast? The first point to
:46:02. > :46:05.make is that there appears to be a global upturn and the second point
:46:06. > :46:10.is that any recovery that is happening at a UK level doesn't
:46:11. > :46:15.necessarily trickle down to Wales. We know there are still great
:46:16. > :46:19.problems within the Welsh economy. Youth unemployment is a particular
:46:20. > :46:25.problem. Long-term youth unemployment has risen by about
:46:26. > :46:30.400%. So our economy has deep and grave problems. We know, as well,
:46:31. > :46:35.that there are greater numbers of people on zero hours contracts,
:46:36. > :46:37.large numbers of people underemployed - so you've got
:46:38. > :46:43.graduate is working in bars and restaurants. So although there may
:46:44. > :46:47.be, superficially, some signs of recovery, I would question the
:46:48. > :46:53.amount that that recovery is actually affecting Wales. So the
:46:54. > :47:01.debate about who gets the credit about the recovery, you say nobody
:47:02. > :47:06.does? Yes, in effect. And for us to shape our economy in Wales, it's in
:47:07. > :47:11.our hands to do so. Only people in Wales can do that and for us to
:47:12. > :47:18.expect others from elsewhere to be able to rejuvenate our economy for
:47:19. > :47:21.us is a forlorn hope. Where do you stand on this increase in the top
:47:22. > :47:26.rate of income tax to 50p that Ed balls outlined yesterday? Plaid
:47:27. > :47:31.Cymru has said all along that all those who can afford to pay should
:47:32. > :47:35.pay for the mess that was caused by the bankers so I would support
:47:36. > :47:42.higher taxes for those who can afford to pay them on a UK level.
:47:43. > :47:47.Higher than 50p? We can debate the ins and outs of that. Ultimately,
:47:48. > :47:51.what you need to do is introduce policies that maximise the tax take
:47:52. > :47:57.and it does get to a point where the higher you tax, below are rate you
:47:58. > :48:01.have coming in so you need to be able to tax at a rate where you can
:48:02. > :48:04.maximise the income coming in. But I think it's also fair to point out
:48:05. > :48:09.that there are major problems with tax evasion and avoidance, as well,
:48:10. > :48:15.and with cuts to HMRC the numbers of tax collectors have gone down so the
:48:16. > :48:23.amount of tax able to be collected has reduced, so that's another area
:48:24. > :48:27.that needs discussing. Income tax devolution could be on the cards -
:48:28. > :48:31.are you in favour of that? Will you insist on it if there are coalition
:48:32. > :48:37.talks after the next Assembly elections? We've been clear that we
:48:38. > :48:41.need the tools here in Wales to do the job of turning around our
:48:42. > :48:46.economy and sharing income tax powers, as proposed by the
:48:47. > :48:51.commission, is one way where we could take control of our economy in
:48:52. > :48:56.a far more robust way than we are now. But will you insist on a
:48:57. > :49:01.referendum if there are coalition talks after the next Assembly
:49:02. > :49:05.election? I'm not prepared to talk about red line issues at this point
:49:06. > :49:09.in time. What I said about a referendum is that it has to be
:49:10. > :49:14.something we can actually put to the people and have a chance of winning.
:49:15. > :49:18.The problem with the offer that's there at the moment is that it's got
:49:19. > :49:23.a lock in it, which means those tax powers, if they are devolved, would
:49:24. > :49:27.be pretty useless. There would be few parties that would actually use
:49:28. > :49:33.them. We want tax powers that can be used in our MPs will be working very
:49:34. > :49:40.hard to try to remove that lock so that we can have powers that we can
:49:41. > :49:45.actually use. The Wales Bill will also get rid of a ban on dual
:49:46. > :49:48.candidacy in elections, allowing candidates to stand in a
:49:49. > :49:51.constituency and the region. You want to stand in the Rhondda but
:49:52. > :50:00.will you hedge your bets and stand in a region, as well, if you get in
:50:01. > :50:05.the -- get the opportunity? Yes, I would like that but I think
:50:06. > :50:07.politicians talking about electoral arrangements and focusing on that is
:50:08. > :50:12.deeply unattractive to the electorate. Euros this some time ago
:50:13. > :50:19.when you said you wanted to stand in a constituency. Does it undermine
:50:20. > :50:26.your position a bit if you say, "I'm going to have the security of a list
:50:27. > :50:30.seat, as well" ? When I made that announcement, the situation was
:50:31. > :50:34.different to what it is now. There was a ban on standing on the
:50:35. > :50:38.regional list and in a constituency. There are moves now to remove that
:50:39. > :50:43.ban but we still don't know what the situation would be by 2016 and,
:50:44. > :50:48.either way, I will be standing in the Rhondda and I'll be standing to
:50:49. > :50:52.win that constituency seat. Turning back to the economy, you've tried to
:50:53. > :50:55.offer your own solutions to what the Labour Party is called a cost of
:50:56. > :50:59.living crisis - I'm thinking of energy bills, where you think you
:51:00. > :51:05.can find a way to bring them down with a new player in the energy
:51:06. > :51:11.market in Wales. Would a new source of energy, from shale gas, do more
:51:12. > :51:15.to bring down energy bills? Well, the evidence so far suggests that
:51:16. > :51:22.the introduction of shale gas would not significantly reduce hills. We
:51:23. > :51:25.should do all we can to reduce people's bills because the increase
:51:26. > :51:30.in bills has been phenomenal over the last few years and the prophets
:51:31. > :51:34.by the energy companies as gone up by 73% in just three years, so
:51:35. > :51:39.that's something that needs to be addressed. Plaid Cymru's position is
:51:40. > :51:44.that public services should be run in the interests of people, not
:51:45. > :51:47.profit, so we would like to, and a Plaid Cymru government, set up a
:51:48. > :51:52.Welsh energy company which can bulk buy energy and then sell on back to
:51:53. > :51:58.consumers in the form of householders and businesses, at a
:51:59. > :52:04.much cheaper cost. But I'm asking you about fracking - do you support
:52:05. > :52:09.fracking? We would say that any developments for energy have to be
:52:10. > :52:14.considered in the light of what safe and there are many questions about
:52:15. > :52:18.fracking which are yet to be answered. The other question, as far
:52:19. > :52:23.as Wales is concerned, is who gets to decide and who gets to receive
:52:24. > :52:28.the benefits from any energy generation. Sounds like you are yet
:52:29. > :52:34.to make up your mind. Plaid Cymru wants to see far more effort in the
:52:35. > :52:37.development of renewable energy. If you're investing in fossil fuel
:52:38. > :52:42.based energy, you're not investing in renewable energy. Wouldn't farms
:52:43. > :52:45.are one aspect of renewable energy but there are a range of other
:52:46. > :52:51.technologies which are not utilised yet in Wales - marine technology,
:52:52. > :52:56.hydropower, solar power - which we could expand upon. And community
:52:57. > :53:01.generation, too. Then east to be more incentives for able to generate
:53:02. > :53:07.their own energy. -- there needs to be. Wales is a net exporter of
:53:08. > :53:11.energy and we pay more for our electricity than people do in other
:53:12. > :53:16.parts of the UK. So this is an iniquitous situation. You mentioned
:53:17. > :53:21.public services. A big change, possibly, is the merger of councils.
:53:22. > :53:24.The First Minister wants consensus but I gather your party wants
:53:25. > :53:32.proportional representation or change in the voting system. Are you
:53:33. > :53:36.going to insist on that? We have yet to discuss the proposals. We are
:53:37. > :53:39.going to extensively consult with our councillors and members before
:53:40. > :53:44.issuing a position. But the commission offers us a great
:53:45. > :53:49.opportunity to change the way we run public services in Wales. The report
:53:50. > :53:53.shone a light on public services and showed there was patchy provision,
:53:54. > :53:59.postcode lotteries, inaccessible services in some places. This is a
:54:00. > :54:02.great opportunity to address that but public services are much wider
:54:03. > :54:07.than local authorities and this is a great opportunity to look at public
:54:08. > :54:11.service position -- provision right across the board. We need to start
:54:12. > :54:16.from the place of considering what the best way is to provide public
:54:17. > :54:18.services in Wales. You've talked about recruiting more doctors.
:54:19. > :54:24.Initially you said you'd find that with your levy on sugary drinks but
:54:25. > :54:30.now you say that's just one option. Are you rowing back on the pop tax?
:54:31. > :54:34.No, it has been proposed that we could take innovative tax decisions
:54:35. > :54:40.and Plaid Cymru has put forward one use of such innovative taxes. If we
:54:41. > :54:43.did introduce a tax on sugary drinks, what we would want to
:54:44. > :54:46.achieve is a reduction in consumption. So if it was a
:54:47. > :54:50.successful policy, the amount of money it would bring in would be
:54:51. > :54:54.reduced but there are other aspects of the budget that could be looked
:54:55. > :55:00.at to pay for these doctors. Where we are at the moment in Wales is way
:55:01. > :55:02.behind the UK average and the Scottish average for doctors per
:55:03. > :55:07.head of the population. That's an unacceptable situation. Our health
:55:08. > :55:11.reconfiguration is going ahead on the basis that we don't have enough
:55:12. > :55:15.doctors so we have to address that and the innovative tax is one way to
:55:16. > :55:20.do it. We're out of time. Thank you for joining me.
:55:21. > :55:29.Now a quick look back at some of the political stories of the week in 60
:55:30. > :55:31.seconds. Talks on merging local councils
:55:32. > :55:36.should start before Easter, according to this man. Paul Williams
:55:37. > :55:40.led the commission on Public services for the Welsh Government,
:55:41. > :55:45.which called for a big shake-up, saying the number of councils should
:55:46. > :55:48.be cut from 22 to ten. The Welsh Conservatives want a more clever
:55:49. > :55:54.approach to attracting foreign investors. They unveiled plans for a
:55:55. > :55:57.privately run investment Counsel to reverse the decline in inward
:55:58. > :56:02.investments as the 1980s. The Welsh Government said an upturn last year
:56:03. > :56:04.showed they were on the right track. Nearly 400 more civil servants were
:56:05. > :56:10.hired by the Welsh Government in the last two years but the number of
:56:11. > :56:12.mandarins across the UK fell. The Welsh Government said its headcount
:56:13. > :56:19.had fallen by more than a thousand in the last two years. And from too
:56:20. > :56:21.many councillors to to view AMs - the Assembly needs more members,
:56:22. > :56:27.according to the Presiding Officer. Dame Rosemary Butler said the number
:56:28. > :56:37.should rise up or the strain would begin to tell.
:56:38. > :56:40.Opposition figures in Ukraine say their anti-government demonstrations
:56:41. > :56:43.will continue, despite efforts by the country's president to end the
:56:44. > :56:48.violence by offering them key government posts. Last night,
:56:49. > :56:52.hundreds of protesters firebombed a conference hall being used by
:56:53. > :56:58.security forces in the capital, Kiev. The AM for Pontypridd, Mick
:56:59. > :57:08.Antoniw, has just returned from Kiev, where he was part of the
:57:09. > :57:12.delegation from the EU's committee. Thanks for joining us. What is the
:57:13. > :57:17.situation like in Kiev? Very grim and very tense at the moment. But
:57:18. > :57:22.what's very clear is that the people in Kiev and the surrounding areas
:57:23. > :57:26.have got an enormous confidence that perhaps the tide is changing and
:57:27. > :57:31.they are beginning to win. They have one very clear demand - they want a
:57:32. > :57:36.democratic, accountable government. For them, that means that the
:57:37. > :57:43.president has to go. Whilst I was there, people were being shot on the
:57:44. > :57:46.streets. People had limbs blown off. It's a frightening situation.
:57:47. > :57:50.Absolutely and it was happening while we were there. That's why we
:57:51. > :57:54.refused to meet the government while we were there. But there is a voice
:57:55. > :57:59.of people saying, "we want the world to know" . Whatever happens in
:58:00. > :58:05.Ukraine will have an impact throughout the whole of Europe. It's
:58:06. > :58:10.interesting to see the protest movement has now expanded across the
:58:11. > :58:15.whole of Ukraine. Who is this protest movement? Who is fighting
:58:16. > :58:17.here? What's clear is that the political parties obviously have a
:58:18. > :58:23.role to play but they are not the leaders. I can only describe this as
:58:24. > :58:27.a common uprising of people. People I met were lawyers, teachers,
:58:28. > :58:33.doctors, across the whole range of society, and they're not led by
:58:34. > :58:40.political parties. They say, "we have to win because if we don't, we
:58:41. > :58:45.may be arrested and killed" . It is about creating a modern democratic
:58:46. > :58:49.government and being part of Europe. You were representing an EU
:58:50. > :58:53.institution so you presumably have a view on what Ukraine's policy should
:58:54. > :59:00.be. At what point in all of this did the government of Ukraine lose its
:59:01. > :59:03.legitimacy? In a number of ways. Firstly when it changed the
:59:04. > :59:08.constitution to effectively transfer all powers to the president.
:59:09. > :59:10.Secondly, when the president took control of the constitutional court,
:59:11. > :59:16.so there are no independent courts in Ukraine. And thirdly, when it
:59:17. > :59:20.authorised the police to use lethal force against demonstrators. But the
:59:21. > :59:28.president has offered concessions and they've been refused. What do
:59:29. > :59:32.they want out of this? What is the endgame? Constitutional change and
:59:33. > :59:37.fresh elections, and an independent Electoral Commission. It's fair to
:59:38. > :59:42.say there has been no really fair election in Ukraine since the state
:59:43. > :59:47.was established and it's very clear that if the president remains in
:59:48. > :59:51.position, with his powers, he will win the next election, irrespective
:59:52. > :59:54.of the number of votes cast. One wonders when it will end because you
:59:55. > :59:59.hear reports of government buildings outside Kiev Ian seized. It looks
:00:00. > :00:03.like it's spreading. Will have more confidence, particularly in the east
:00:04. > :00:08.of Ukraine, where you see far more demonstrators and protest staking
:00:09. > :00:12.place. They have been very politically controlled over the last
:00:13. > :00:14.few decades and the fact is that people have more confidence now but
:00:15. > :00:20.there is one common theme running through here - time and time again,
:00:21. > :00:25.people say they want to be democratic, they want fair
:00:26. > :00:29.elections, and an end to what they describe as gangster capitalism. We
:00:30. > :00:29.have to leave it there, Mick. Thank you for coming
:00:30. > :00:41.have to leave it there, Mick. Thank you for coming
:00:42. > :00:44.back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never
:00:45. > :00:47.far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself. He
:00:48. > :00:50.was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked
:00:51. > :00:53.outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city
:00:54. > :01:00.firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also
:01:01. > :01:04.seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him
:01:05. > :01:07.on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the
:01:08. > :01:12.suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.
:01:13. > :01:20.We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel
:01:21. > :01:24.with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but
:01:25. > :01:29.definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in
:01:30. > :01:36.a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the
:01:37. > :01:40.floods on the gay marriage Bill. The old party is focusing on the view of
:01:41. > :01:48.UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things
:01:49. > :01:55.before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on
:01:56. > :02:02.when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of
:02:03. > :02:06.all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a
:02:07. > :02:17.child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a 9
:02:18. > :02:24.foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor
:02:25. > :02:31.thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of
:02:32. > :02:37.embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing
:02:38. > :02:43.party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps
:02:44. > :02:47.on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.
:02:48. > :02:55.In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in
:02:56. > :03:00.May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for
:03:01. > :03:05.outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back
:03:06. > :03:10.to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.
:03:11. > :03:14.Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it
:03:15. > :03:19.would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.
:03:20. > :03:25.What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince
:03:26. > :03:30.Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as
:03:31. > :03:36.does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr
:03:37. > :03:39.candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people
:03:40. > :03:43.to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years
:03:44. > :03:48.that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going
:03:49. > :03:54.to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about
:03:55. > :03:58.your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it
:03:59. > :04:02.came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that
:04:03. > :04:07.party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know
:04:08. > :04:14.what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a
:04:15. > :04:20.grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for
:04:21. > :04:23.an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling
:04:24. > :04:27.gun deaths in the United States, now almost one every week in some
:04:28. > :04:38.terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off
:04:39. > :04:42.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:43. > :04:48.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:49. > :04:53.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:54. > :04:59.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:05:00. > :05:04.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:05. > :05:08.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:09. > :05:13.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:14. > :05:19.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:20. > :05:25.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:26. > :05:29.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:30. > :05:34.if you are an anti-system party, the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:35. > :05:40.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:41. > :05:46.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:47. > :05:52.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:53. > :05:55.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:56. > :05:59.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives. The
:06:00. > :06:05.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:06. > :06:10.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:11. > :06:18.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:19. > :06:23.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:24. > :06:26.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:27. > :06:33.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:34. > :06:38.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:39. > :06:43.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:44. > :06:50.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:51. > :06:57.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:58. > :07:07.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:08. > :07:15.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:16. > :07:21.Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:22. > :07:26.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:27. > :07:30.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:31. > :07:34.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:35. > :07:36.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:37. > :07:39.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:40. > :07:43.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:44. > :07:46.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:47. > :07:52.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:53. > :07:56.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:57. > :08:04.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a ?23
:08:05. > :08:08.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:09. > :08:12.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:13. > :08:17.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:18. > :08:24.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we've
:08:25. > :08:29.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:30. > :08:33.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:34. > :08:37.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:38. > :08:43.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:44. > :08:46.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:47. > :08:52.system through the planning regulations. In London there is a
:08:53. > :08:56.gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be
:08:57. > :09:00.able to see St Paul's Cathedral. That's why you cannot build homes
:09:01. > :09:07.where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond
:09:08. > :09:13.Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.
:09:14. > :09:17.You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about
:09:18. > :09:24.200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is
:09:25. > :09:27.helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty
:09:28. > :09:34.dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are
:09:35. > :09:38.to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked
:09:39. > :09:42.about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land
:09:43. > :09:47.as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going
:09:48. > :09:51.to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you
:09:52. > :09:55.have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the
:09:56. > :09:58.Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a
:09:59. > :10:04.political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.
:10:05. > :10:08.The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider
:10:09. > :10:13.in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational
:10:14. > :10:18.incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the
:10:19. > :10:22.Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an
:10:23. > :10:26.interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are
:10:27. > :10:31.stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at
:10:32. > :10:36.the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in
:10:37. > :10:40.quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest
:10:41. > :10:45.populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build
:10:46. > :10:49.homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is
:10:50. > :10:54.r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's
:10:55. > :11:01.been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.
:11:02. > :11:07.But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's
:11:08. > :11:10.an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is
:11:11. > :11:15.interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for
:11:16. > :11:21.development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on
:11:22. > :11:26.it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how
:11:27. > :11:31.quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the
:11:32. > :11:36.Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and
:11:37. > :11:40.Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a
:11:41. > :11:45.thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the
:11:46. > :11:50.energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use
:11:51. > :11:55.it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the
:11:56. > :12:00.50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent
:12:01. > :12:05.controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.
:12:06. > :12:09.They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in
:12:10. > :12:13.the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour
:12:14. > :12:17.supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The
:12:18. > :12:21.policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the
:12:22. > :12:26.party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying
:12:27. > :12:30.suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are
:12:31. > :12:34.tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when
:12:35. > :12:38.Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a
:12:39. > :12:42.superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think
:12:43. > :12:48.they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech
:12:49. > :12:53.on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a
:12:54. > :12:57.year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking
:12:58. > :13:02.about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael
:13:03. > :13:06.Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr
:13:07. > :13:09.Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to
:13:10. > :13:13.the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his
:13:14. > :13:17.office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes
:13:18. > :13:22.and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of
:13:23. > :13:26.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:27. > :13:29.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:30. > :13:33.That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is
:13:34. > :13:36.back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.
:13:37. > :13:40.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.