:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:42. > :00:45.him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:46. > :00:49.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:50. > :00:51.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:52. > :00:56.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:57. > :01:00.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:01. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:06.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:07. > :01:09.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:10. > :01:13.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:14. > :01:17.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:18. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:35.Later in the programme, I speak to traffic and travel report. Dutch
:01:36. > :01:37.Later in the programme, I speak to Health MInister Mark Drakeford about
:01:38. > :01:47.Will it provide the kind of reassurance people want?
:01:48. > :01:50.Yes, all that and more in today's action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:51. > :01:56.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:57. > :01:59.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:00. > :02:02.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:03. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:11.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:12. > :02:16.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:17. > :02:18.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:19. > :02:23.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:24. > :02:32.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:33. > :02:36.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:37. > :02:39.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:40. > :02:45.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:46. > :02:49.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:50. > :02:52.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:53. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:08.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:09. > :03:13.moment? I don't know about that. It is certainly a bold move,
:03:14. > :03:17.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:18. > :03:23.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:24. > :03:28.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:29. > :03:36.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:37. > :03:40.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:41. > :03:49.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members. So
:03:50. > :03:59.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:00. > :04:03.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:04. > :04:08.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:09. > :04:14.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:15. > :04:19.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:20. > :04:26.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:27. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:41.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:42. > :04:47.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:48. > :04:52.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:53. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:03.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:04. > :05:09.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:10. > :05:14.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:15. > :05:20.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:21. > :05:24.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:25. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:37.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:38. > :05:41.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far,
:05:42. > :05:49.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:50. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:55.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:56. > :06:02.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:03. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:10.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:11. > :06:15.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:16. > :06:18.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:19. > :06:22.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:23. > :06:28.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:29. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:38.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:39. > :06:41.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:42. > :06:48.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:49. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:00.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:01. > :07:03.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:04. > :07:08.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:09. > :07:12.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:13. > :07:17.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:24. > :07:31.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:32. > :07:37.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:38. > :07:43.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:44. > :07:48.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:49. > :08:03.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:04. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:09.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:10. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:28.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:29. > :08:32.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:33. > :08:36.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:37. > :08:40.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:41. > :08:44.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:45. > :08:51.fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major
:08:52. > :08:55.part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 50% of
:08:56. > :09:00.the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.
:09:05. > :09:14.It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are
:09:15. > :09:16.they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade
:09:17. > :09:22.unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what
:09:23. > :09:26.anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our
:09:27. > :09:30.members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights,
:09:31. > :09:33.social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it
:09:34. > :09:37.quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties.
:09:38. > :09:43.That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of
:09:44. > :09:48.our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them
:09:49. > :09:52.to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force
:09:53. > :10:03.now. Union membership is only 6.5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of
:10:04. > :10:10.that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in
:10:11. > :10:17.Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should
:10:18. > :10:20.Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation
:10:21. > :10:26.in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make
:10:27. > :10:30.conscious choices. My own union, the GMB, has been growing for eight
:10:31. > :10:35.years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of
:10:36. > :10:39.accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why
:10:40. > :10:47.unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have
:10:48. > :10:51.adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like
:10:52. > :10:59.being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that
:11:00. > :11:02.either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be
:11:03. > :11:07.inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we
:11:08. > :11:14.will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.
:11:15. > :11:19.So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his
:11:20. > :11:22.credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked
:11:23. > :11:27.as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit, he
:11:28. > :11:32.is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it
:11:33. > :11:35.comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,
:11:36. > :11:41.these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from
:11:42. > :11:46.trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold
:11:47. > :11:51.back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over
:11:52. > :11:58.automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be
:11:59. > :12:02.dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms. The
:12:03. > :12:05.fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a
:12:06. > :12:10.Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been
:12:11. > :12:14.muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may
:12:15. > :12:17.be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.
:12:18. > :12:22.Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to
:12:23. > :12:28.take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,
:12:29. > :12:32.and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh
:12:33. > :12:37.individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,
:12:38. > :12:40.how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the
:12:41. > :12:44.Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these
:12:45. > :12:49.reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the
:12:50. > :12:52.vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:55.candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple
:12:56. > :12:59.point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the
:13:00. > :13:04.unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all
:13:05. > :13:08.the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not
:13:09. > :13:12.going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the
:13:13. > :13:19.unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony
:13:20. > :13:23.Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone
:13:24. > :13:28.incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,
:13:29. > :13:31.you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,
:13:32. > :13:35.do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to
:13:36. > :13:42.go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from
:13:43. > :13:45.the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you
:13:46. > :13:51.will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB
:13:52. > :13:56.with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,
:13:57. > :14:01.vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union
:14:02. > :14:06.members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his
:14:07. > :14:09.Lordship is not still here to answer that question.
:14:10. > :14:13.HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose
:14:14. > :14:16.garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an
:14:17. > :14:19.open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary
:14:20. > :14:23.Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools
:14:24. > :14:26.inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said
:14:27. > :14:31.to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through
:14:32. > :14:35.surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the
:14:36. > :14:47.Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another
:14:48. > :14:51.opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,
:14:52. > :14:55.then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it
:14:56. > :14:58.is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there
:14:59. > :15:04.is a principle across government that there should be no automatic
:15:05. > :15:09.reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to
:15:10. > :15:13.bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order
:15:14. > :15:21.to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have
:15:22. > :15:24.tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy
:15:25. > :15:29.leader of the Liberal Democrats, Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen.
:15:30. > :15:36.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious
:15:37. > :15:39.with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been
:15:40. > :15:45.doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole
:15:46. > :15:48.spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all
:15:49. > :15:53.schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.
:15:54. > :15:58.That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a
:15:59. > :16:01.good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is
:16:02. > :16:15.strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why
:16:16. > :16:21.hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and
:16:22. > :16:25.I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to
:16:26. > :16:30.Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you
:16:31. > :16:35.have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,
:16:36. > :16:39.effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is
:16:40. > :16:44.seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a
:16:45. > :16:49.question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he
:16:50. > :16:54.replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what
:16:55. > :16:58.basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we
:16:59. > :17:07.can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are
:17:08. > :17:12.good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than
:17:13. > :17:17.saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this
:17:18. > :17:24.morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is
:17:25. > :17:30.perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked
:17:31. > :17:35.me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he
:17:36. > :17:40.wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also
:17:41. > :17:43.give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department
:17:44. > :17:51.for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask
:17:52. > :17:57.is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a
:17:58. > :18:02.political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.
:18:03. > :18:14.Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,
:18:15. > :18:19.middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I
:18:20. > :18:23.don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of
:18:24. > :18:28.experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now
:18:29. > :18:31.until the election, not least because the central issues that will
:18:32. > :18:38.concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting
:18:39. > :18:44.the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even
:18:45. > :18:48.standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next
:18:49. > :19:00.election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful
:19:01. > :19:02.job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered
:19:03. > :19:04.policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to
:19:05. > :19:08.understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference
:19:09. > :19:12.to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with
:19:13. > :19:17.the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a
:19:18. > :19:23.chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs
:19:24. > :19:32.out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why
:19:33. > :19:37.you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major
:19:38. > :19:43.positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best
:19:44. > :19:49.qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven
:19:50. > :20:01.women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are
:20:02. > :20:07.ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to
:20:08. > :20:11.Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his
:20:12. > :20:17.position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for
:20:18. > :20:23.a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost
:20:24. > :20:27.Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that
:20:28. > :20:34.we were not able to continue that interview.
:20:35. > :20:37.Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery
:20:38. > :20:40.to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the
:20:41. > :20:43.wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The
:20:44. > :20:48.Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little
:20:49. > :20:52.respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the
:20:53. > :20:58.Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam
:20:59. > :21:17.out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form. The
:21:18. > :21:21.very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has
:21:22. > :21:29.been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels
:21:30. > :21:34.a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.
:21:35. > :21:39.Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her
:21:40. > :21:46.doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.
:21:47. > :21:52.Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not
:21:53. > :21:57.as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,
:21:58. > :22:01.and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not
:22:02. > :22:11.doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's
:22:12. > :22:18.what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a
:22:19. > :22:24.Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything
:22:25. > :22:28.has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never
:22:29. > :22:34.have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in
:22:35. > :22:39.the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,
:22:40. > :22:46.quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat
:22:47. > :22:55.service to get people to work and school. The church has become an
:22:56. > :23:01.unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this
:23:02. > :23:06.is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all
:23:07. > :23:11.seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and
:23:12. > :23:17.businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is
:23:18. > :23:21.underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which
:23:22. > :23:26.are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the
:23:27. > :23:32.parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has
:23:33. > :23:37.responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with
:23:38. > :23:42.the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to
:23:43. > :23:46.react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was
:23:47. > :23:52.another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major
:23:53. > :23:57.incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency
:23:58. > :24:01.crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring
:24:02. > :24:06.in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more
:24:07. > :24:12.grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite
:24:13. > :24:16.where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to
:24:17. > :24:24.come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we
:24:25. > :24:29.have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the
:24:30. > :24:34.meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib
:24:35. > :24:40.Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are
:24:41. > :24:48.making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has
:24:49. > :24:55.women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs
:24:56. > :24:59.who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their
:25:00. > :25:05.constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected
:25:06. > :25:08.are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them
:25:09. > :25:12.elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the
:25:13. > :25:16.future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick
:25:17. > :25:34.people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I
:25:35. > :25:41.have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women
:25:42. > :25:48.candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 12,
:25:49. > :25:51.five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where
:25:52. > :25:57.there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,
:25:58. > :26:01.but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,
:26:02. > :26:07.and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to
:26:08. > :26:15.people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to
:26:16. > :26:22.those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57
:26:23. > :26:27.seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were
:26:28. > :26:34.able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have
:26:35. > :26:41.20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female
:26:42. > :26:46.candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class
:26:47. > :26:50.MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats
:26:51. > :26:55.taking them on. We don't have 300 seats that we currently hold like
:26:56. > :27:02.other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --
:27:03. > :27:08.increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said
:27:09. > :27:12.that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and
:27:13. > :27:18.privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you
:27:19. > :27:22.because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope
:27:23. > :27:26.it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to
:27:27. > :27:30.court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any
:27:31. > :27:35.aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you
:27:36. > :27:44.are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal
:27:45. > :27:48.with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't
:27:49. > :27:56.have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process
:27:57. > :28:01.that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.
:28:02. > :28:09.Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is
:28:10. > :28:14.constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it
:28:15. > :28:18.comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are
:28:19. > :28:22.all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't
:28:23. > :28:26.talk about them because talking about them aggravates the
:28:27. > :28:31.situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't
:28:32. > :28:35.think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that
:28:36. > :28:40.those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to
:28:41. > :28:44.solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal
:28:45. > :28:49.Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to
:28:50. > :28:53.change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own
:28:54. > :29:04.way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right
:29:05. > :29:09.way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of
:29:10. > :29:17.the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green
:29:18. > :29:22.party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green
:29:23. > :29:29.party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with
:29:30. > :29:34.the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and
:29:35. > :29:39.that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I
:29:40. > :29:46.want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The
:29:47. > :29:54.homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.
:29:55. > :29:57.We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so
:29:58. > :30:03.little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my
:30:04. > :30:08.question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the
:30:09. > :30:15.answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points
:30:16. > :30:20.are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river
:30:21. > :30:24.in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those
:30:25. > :30:28.points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may
:30:29. > :30:33.be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its
:30:34. > :30:37.own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working
:30:38. > :30:40.out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't
:30:41. > :30:49.suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England
:30:50. > :30:52.agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the
:30:53. > :30:56.Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this
:30:57. > :31:00.was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been
:31:01. > :31:05.calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union
:31:06. > :31:09.has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences
:31:10. > :31:12.has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by
:31:13. > :31:17.profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on
:31:18. > :31:24.the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not
:31:25. > :31:29.been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to
:31:30. > :31:31.continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and
:31:32. > :31:36.climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning
:31:37. > :31:39.Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical
:31:40. > :31:45.greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with
:31:46. > :31:48.flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people
:31:49. > :31:52.currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office
:31:53. > :31:56.in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they
:31:57. > :32:01.are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on
:32:02. > :32:06.a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there
:32:07. > :32:10.were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on
:32:11. > :32:13.their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we
:32:14. > :32:20.have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for
:32:21. > :32:28.safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --
:32:29. > :32:33.where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,
:32:34. > :32:37.property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,
:32:38. > :32:42.particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a
:32:43. > :32:45.situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment
:32:46. > :32:48.Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is
:32:49. > :32:54.expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting
:32:55. > :32:59.everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one
:33:00. > :33:06.by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I
:33:07. > :33:14.don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we
:33:15. > :33:17.have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding
:33:18. > :33:21.to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff
:33:22. > :33:24.available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local
:33:25. > :33:30.councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of
:33:31. > :33:34.our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn't
:33:35. > :33:39.the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out
:33:40. > :33:42.of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government
:33:43. > :33:48.is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is
:33:49. > :33:54.loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is
:33:55. > :33:58.about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue
:33:59. > :34:02.for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in
:34:03. > :34:08.Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large
:34:09. > :34:16.amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,
:34:17. > :34:19.but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate
:34:20. > :34:23.change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I
:34:24. > :34:27.can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a
:34:28. > :34:32.radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat
:34:33. > :34:34.is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the
:34:35. > :34:38.International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked
:34:39. > :34:42.what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough
:34:43. > :34:46.about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking
:34:47. > :34:49.at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people
:34:50. > :34:54.in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the
:34:55. > :35:00.case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry
:35:01. > :35:04.to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little
:35:05. > :35:08.career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel
:35:09. > :35:13.Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and
:35:14. > :35:18.behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.
:35:19. > :35:24.Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew. It
:35:25. > :35:28.is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to
:35:29. > :35:34.say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul
:35:35. > :35:39.flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest
:35:40. > :35:46.making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail
:35:47. > :35:51.network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit
:35:52. > :35:54.that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot
:35:55. > :35:59.dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well
:36:00. > :36:05.be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One
:36:06. > :36:11.viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks
:36:12. > :36:15.for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters.
:36:16. > :36:20.Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across
:36:21. > :36:26.the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make
:36:27. > :36:36.driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their
:36:37. > :36:41.gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports
:36:42. > :36:46.of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to
:36:47. > :36:49.block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the
:36:50. > :36:55.environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as
:36:56. > :37:01.furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.
:37:02. > :37:07.Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.
:37:08. > :37:10.Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing
:37:11. > :37:18.for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up
:37:19. > :37:23.the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are
:37:24. > :37:27.happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are
:37:28. > :37:35.welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.
:37:36. > :37:40.Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career
:37:41. > :37:44.in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and
:37:45. > :37:48.that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to
:37:49. > :37:55.get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.
:37:56. > :37:58.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:59. > :42:24.minutes, we will have We should be able to set those tolls
:42:25. > :42:28.to benefit the Welsh economy. Many companies think the tolls are
:42:29. > :42:33.adding an extra cost but the level of the charge will soon become a
:42:34. > :42:37.political issue. As decision day approaches, the pressure will pile
:42:38. > :42:40.up for a big cut in the travelling into and out of South Wales.
:42:41. > :42:43.Tomos Livingstone reporting there. Joining me now for a wider
:42:44. > :42:56.discussion about the economy, Labour MP Nia Griffith and Conservative
:42:57. > :43:01.Alun Cairns. Alun Cairns, we had in that piece that the bridges are
:43:02. > :43:08.operated by a private contractor but the tolls are due a cut?
:43:09. > :43:11.The current regime goes back to 1992 when the law was passed and the
:43:12. > :43:15.finance scheme was set up so the government haven't had the
:43:16. > :43:18.opportunity to intervene until the concession ends, which is linked to
:43:19. > :43:24.the kind of income that is generated. It is likely to be 2018
:43:25. > :43:30.because of the way the economy is picking up. Effectively, the
:43:31. > :43:33.government haven't been able to do anything up until now but I would
:43:34. > :43:42.say that where George Osborne has been able to intervene, he was able
:43:43. > :43:48.to half the rate on the Humber Bridge because it was a direct loan
:43:49. > :43:56.to the government. Can't he do that in Wales? The law
:43:57. > :43:59.does not permit that at the moment. When it does happen I'm optimistic
:44:00. > :44:05.that there will be some sort of scheme that will be friendly to
:44:06. > :44:10.Wales and to the motorist. Nia Griffith, we heard does it matter
:44:11. > :44:15.who controls it? Do you have a view? The important thing is that when the
:44:16. > :44:19.many is paid back for the construction, they do come down.
:44:20. > :44:23.Whether or not it is collected by the Welsh government or the UK
:44:24. > :44:28.Government, I do know Carwyn Jones will be looking carefully at the
:44:29. > :44:34.small print and saying that if this is devolved Wales, is going to be a
:44:35. > :44:38.cut in the block grant, if that cut was satisfied, then quite clearly
:44:39. > :44:43.you'd be in a difficult situation in Wales because it be having to charge
:44:44. > :44:47.the maximum in order to stand still. If on the other hand are more
:44:48. > :44:51.amenable can be reached with the UK Government than the opportunity is
:44:52. > :44:55.there. It is easy for Plaid Cymru to call
:44:56. > :44:59.for a flat rate but they need to say where the money is coming from. We
:45:00. > :45:04.need to be practical. There's a good model in place on the Humber Bridge
:45:05. > :45:09.and that is financed from the Treasury. I'm optimistic we can
:45:10. > :45:14.deliver that in Wales. Let's move on to the economy. Real wages have been
:45:15. > :45:20.dropping since 2010. The longest period of four since 1964, according
:45:21. > :45:22.to the office for National statistics.
:45:23. > :45:27.Alun Cairns, are people in your constituency feeling any richer?
:45:28. > :45:34.They recognise that the long-term economic plan is working.
:45:35. > :45:38.Not of their wages are falling. Certainly, because the recession was
:45:39. > :45:44.the biggest in the century almost. Therefore, there needed to be a
:45:45. > :45:50.long-term plan to put it right. If there is a significant structural
:45:51. > :45:53.budget, when the economy when South, then obviously it was going
:45:54. > :45:59.to take time to turn it around from the mess that was inherited.
:46:00. > :46:03.Longer than expected. We have to take into account what happens, well
:46:04. > :46:08.it was deeper than we predicted and you have to take into account the
:46:09. > :46:11.financial crisis is that took place in Europe. Let's look positively.
:46:12. > :46:15.The long-term economic plan is working farms to the hard work of
:46:16. > :46:22.families and businesses across the whole of the UK. Wilson is working
:46:23. > :46:25.-- going at a faster rate than the rest of England. We have to reflect
:46:26. > :46:32.on that but there is still a long way to go.
:46:33. > :46:38.Nia Griffith, good news. The office for National statistics says that
:46:39. > :46:44.GDP is growing by 1.9 at a moment. Alun Cairns is right, the economy is
:46:45. > :46:47.on the right track. People have no confidence whatsoever. They were
:46:48. > :46:52.told it is going to be growing at seven or 8%.
:46:53. > :47:00.It's about 3%. They can see that actual debt is going to be 198
:47:01. > :47:05.pounds billion pounds more. People are losing confidence. They can see
:47:06. > :47:09.what's happened, in the three years that the Conservative government has
:47:10. > :47:13.been in, they have not made the progress they promised. I think
:47:14. > :47:16.we're seeing a very, very fragile recovery. People still don't have a
:47:17. > :47:20.huge amount of confidence and they're being kept very, very hard
:47:21. > :47:26.because of this drop in wages which is hitting them badly.
:47:27. > :47:33.It's a fragile recovery. Vince Cable has said the same. The long-term
:47:34. > :47:46.economic plan is working. Ed Balls called for plan B. There
:47:47. > :47:50.was a production of a double dip protest taking longer because the
:47:51. > :47:55.depth of the recession was deeper. We had the biggest deficit of any of
:47:56. > :47:59.the most developed economies in the world. It takes time to time around
:48:00. > :48:04.but even the Institute of chartered accountants came at a fantastic
:48:05. > :48:08.predictions on the top of the productions from the IFA and for so
:48:09. > :48:14.many others. I remember some of the phrases from the Conservatives,
:48:15. > :48:18.talking about a balanced economy across the UK.
:48:19. > :48:24.That isn't happening, is it? If you look at last year, every
:48:25. > :48:28.sector of the economy grew. It's the first year in decades that every
:48:29. > :48:34.sector will have grown. That services, manufacturing. We sadly so
:48:35. > :48:40.even retaining the curfews of the Labour government, manufacturing
:48:41. > :48:46.went into decline. Fools suffered most. Every sector grew last year.
:48:47. > :48:50.-- Wales. Labour still has a lot of influence
:48:51. > :48:56.over the Welsh government. As it failed to ease that influence? We
:48:57. > :48:58.know our wealth ranking such as it failed to ease that influence? We
:48:59. > :49:02.know our wealth ranking search visitors, gross value added, Wales
:49:03. > :49:11.is still bottom of the nations and reasons. -- regions. Some of the
:49:12. > :49:20.jobs growth Wales programme. The target of 4000 per year, then
:49:21. > :49:24.people finding people real jobs. Plus a rise in the number of
:49:25. > :49:29.apprentices and the sharpest fall of any part of the UK in the number of
:49:30. > :49:34.young people who are without any form of employment. So yes, the
:49:35. > :49:37.Welsh government is trying hard, but there are macroeconomic factors
:49:38. > :49:43.controlled by the UK Government which make it difficult. When the
:49:44. > :49:48.real issues is sadly, the government has chosen to settle money out of
:49:49. > :49:56.the Welsh economy by hitting low income and middle income people the
:49:57. > :50:00.hardest. Labour hasn't -- has been in charge since 1997 and we are
:50:01. > :50:04.rooted to the bottom. They have helped industry. They have
:50:05. > :50:09.given grants to industry and helped people who have lost their jobs
:50:10. > :50:11.through being made redundant and so forth.
:50:12. > :50:15.All those programmes are very important. Without those would be a
:50:16. > :50:20.lot worse off. Your party has committed to a 50p
:50:21. > :50:24.top rate of income tax. Isn't that about winning back credibility in
:50:25. > :50:28.politics than what is good for the economy?
:50:29. > :50:33.It is about letting those with the broader shoulders take the biggest
:50:34. > :50:39.burden. When you settle money out of the bottom of the economy, and as
:50:40. > :50:44.tax credits Wales is losing money, when you take money from the least
:50:45. > :50:47.well off, that has a knock-on effect immediately in towns and villages
:50:48. > :50:52.because people haven't got the money to spend. What we should be doing is
:50:53. > :50:57.making that tax burden a lot fairer and we should never have seen that
:50:58. > :51:06.kept for those over ?150,000 PA. Completely unfair. Even this week on
:51:07. > :51:10.Prime Minister's Questions, we had a Prime Minister unable to tell us
:51:11. > :51:19.whether he would catch that further from 45, even to ?40. He will not do
:51:20. > :51:24.that. It might sound popular but... Why don't you endorse it? Until
:51:25. > :51:27.people look at the detail, it doesn't raise money. What is the
:51:28. > :51:33.point of the tax rate that doesn't raise money? We want to raise the
:51:34. > :51:36.personal allowance. It has gone down fantastically to ?10,000 and
:51:37. > :51:42.beyond. Two thirds of the lowest paid, the tax has been removed.
:51:43. > :51:53.Thank you both of you. Time for a look back at some of the political
:51:54. > :52:00.stories of the week in 60 seconds. Schools inspectors said the quality
:52:01. > :52:04.of teaching needs to improve. Two thirds of secondary school require
:52:05. > :52:10.follow-up visits. Opponents could hold it an indictment of Labour 's
:52:11. > :52:14.record. A drug testing service to identify harmful chemicals in the
:52:15. > :52:19.legal highs will save lives. Health Minister Mark Drakeford said samples
:52:20. > :52:24.can be sent anonymously to a laboratory. The Conservatives say it
:52:25. > :52:29.is open to abuse by drug dealers. Income tax powers on offer to the
:52:30. > :52:34.assembly, Tory leader in Cardiff Bay told MPs he is not convinced by
:52:35. > :52:38.plans to restrict those powers. Welsh Secretary David James said Mr
:52:39. > :52:44.Davies was giving a personal view. Mr Davies said the Tory agenda
:52:45. > :52:50.members back. The Sun pointed out a front-page story about schools
:52:51. > :53:00.weren't applied to Wales. You don't need to speak Welsh to work out what
:53:01. > :53:03.the paper thought. Smoking and young people has also
:53:04. > :53:07.been in the news. The UK Government said it would ban the sale of
:53:08. > :53:10.e-cigarettes to underage teens and UK ministers also came under
:53:11. > :53:16.pressure to ban smoking in cars when children were on board. The Welsh
:53:17. > :53:19.government says it supports the ban on e-cigarettes and next month sees
:53:20. > :53:25.the end of his campaign on raising awareness about the dangers of
:53:26. > :53:27.smoking in cars. Speaking at First Minister's Questions recently,
:53:28. > :53:31.Carwyn Jones said research had been commissioned on the impact of
:53:32. > :53:34.second-hand smoke and children in cars. He would consider legislation
:53:35. > :53:39.of the voluntary approach hadn't worked.
:53:40. > :53:43.Isn't it time to put children's rights to good health about
:53:44. > :53:49.so-called personal freedoms and ban smoking in cars in which children
:53:50. > :53:55.are passengers? That option is available to us. When that research
:53:56. > :53:59.becomes available in the summer, we will say that if the voluntary
:54:00. > :54:01.approach does not work, we will legislate?
:54:02. > :54:07.Shouldn't you look at this once again? Most people would like this
:54:08. > :54:11.ban in place. Of course, adults have a freedom to
:54:12. > :54:15.do as they wish in their own cars but when there are children in the
:54:16. > :54:20.cars, the children can't get out and make their own decisions. Then the
:54:21. > :54:23.vast personal freedom to impose their smoking on children is not
:54:24. > :54:28.something that I would support in a freedom that does not impinge on the
:54:29. > :54:33.rights of others. That is what smoking in cars with children does.
:54:34. > :54:37.I am joined in the studio by health Minister Mark Drakeford. What
:54:38. > :54:50.punishment you think a parent should face if they spoke with a child in
:54:51. > :54:52.the back seat? That isn't a sensible question,
:54:53. > :54:55.certainly not the approach we are going to be taking in Wales. We've
:54:56. > :54:58.had two years of a campaign of education and information. We will
:54:59. > :55:02.continue to persuade people that are smoking with children in cars is bad
:55:03. > :55:06.and teams that campaign of this regime to change the way people
:55:07. > :55:12.behave. So you don't want to change the? I'm trying to get a sense of
:55:13. > :55:16.how seriously take this issue. Our approach has been clear all the
:55:17. > :55:20.way through. We begin with persuasion. We try and explain to
:55:21. > :55:25.people with high smoking with children in cars is bad and we had
:55:26. > :55:29.considerable success already. We have persuaded more people are
:55:30. > :55:33.not to do that but we are in the middle of that campaign. We've got
:55:34. > :55:38.information emerging from it. We've said all the way through that if we
:55:39. > :55:47.don't succeed in doing it voluntarily, we will see what legit
:55:48. > :55:53.Asian country. Legislation. The fee -- campaign has been running since
:55:54. > :55:59.February 2012. Some findings have emerged, that 71%
:56:00. > :56:03.of cars where they were chosen were smoke-free at the beginning of the
:56:04. > :56:11.campaign. That has already gone up to 78% on the campaign isn't over.
:56:12. > :56:16.But we need to drive it up to 90%. People in the same survey said they
:56:17. > :56:21.believe cars with children in them should be smoke-free. What level
:56:22. > :56:28.will use it before you decide whether to ban smoking in cars with
:56:29. > :56:31.children on Bard bought -- wheel away to the evidence.
:56:32. > :56:37.I will not pre-empt the evidence. We will look at primary children,
:56:38. > :56:41.secondary school children, secondary schoolchildren, and test peoples
:56:42. > :56:48.opinions. If left distillation is needed, we
:56:49. > :56:53.will legislate in. -- legislation. The smoking lobby says it is a
:56:54. > :56:58.serious invasion of privacy. What next, a ban on smoking at home when
:56:59. > :57:05.children are present? What's you make of that? I entirely reject
:57:06. > :57:09.that. Let's not forget... Children are exposed to second-hand
:57:10. > :57:15.smoke at home as well. They are simply not compatible. In a car, you
:57:16. > :57:19.are in a confined space. Concentrations of smoke... And when
:57:20. > :57:25.you smoke, you are putting into the air a combination of substances that
:57:26. > :57:30.cause cancer, that have arsenic, benzene, formaldehyde, cadmium,
:57:31. > :57:35.every time you smoke, those things go into the air and children in a
:57:36. > :57:40.car in a space they cannot get out of and with concentrations of smoke
:57:41. > :57:50.rising over time. In a house, it is possible for people not to be in the
:57:51. > :57:52.room where smoking is happening, the area is much more diffuse.
:57:53. > :57:55.The situation was not comparable. So we have no plans to cut this? We're
:57:56. > :58:01.talking about smoking cars, nothing else. When I'm going to make up your
:58:02. > :58:04.mind on one a change and there is necessary?
:58:05. > :58:08.The UK Government were defeated last week on a Labour amendment. There is
:58:09. > :58:12.to be a vote in the House of Commons this week.
:58:13. > :58:17.We'll see whether they -- there may be opportunities to change the way
:58:18. > :58:21.ways. Wales has been overtaken. You have been campaigning for a long
:58:22. > :58:27.time and now Westminster are pushing ahead with votes in parliament.
:58:28. > :58:30.It was the Welsh evidence that was cited time and again in the house of
:58:31. > :58:37.lawyers debate showing how Wales has been in the forefront. If there are
:58:38. > :58:41.changes in Westminster, the Welsh government will not want children in
:58:42. > :58:46.Wales to have any lower level of protection than is available to
:58:47. > :58:49.children elsewhere in the UK. The charity ten of us would like to
:58:50. > :58:55.see an outright ban on smoking. To agree? There is a different set of
:58:56. > :58:59.arguments were out of arguments where adults are by themselves in a
:59:00. > :59:02.car, doing no harm to anyone other than themselves.
:59:03. > :59:08.At the moment, we're talking about children who are not in a position
:59:09. > :59:12.to make decisions for themselves. Let me ask about e-cigarettes. He
:59:13. > :59:14.see a lot of adverts are those in Cardiff. But you make of those
:59:15. > :59:20.adverts? I am very anxious about
:59:21. > :59:25.e-cigarettes. I hear the arguments that they can be a useful tool for
:59:26. > :59:28.people who are already heavily addicted to smoking and a way of
:59:29. > :59:31.helping them to reduce that addiction.
:59:32. > :59:35.I don't dismiss those arguments. But I am far more worried that the
:59:36. > :59:42.e-cigarettes movement is really normalising smoking and glamorising
:59:43. > :59:46.smoking. It contains nicotine and that is highly addictive. We don't
:59:47. > :59:51.want e-cigarettes to become a gateway to real cigarettes.
:59:52. > :59:55.Should the restrictions on e-cigarettes be exactly the same as
:59:56. > :00:00.the restrictions on tobacco? Next week I will try and persuade the
:00:01. > :00:04.assembly to take powers to prevent the provision of e-cigarettes to
:00:05. > :00:07.children aged under 18 and there are other things that we can do here in
:00:08. > :00:10.Wales. We have a Public health White Paper
:00:11. > :00:15.which we will publish in the next few weeks and that will contain
:00:16. > :00:19.further proposals in this field. But this is a rapidly moving picture and
:00:20. > :00:24.we need a wider debate with a wider public.
:00:25. > :00:28.The evidence in a unclear on whether they are harmful not, so you're not
:00:29. > :00:33.ruling it out, that they should be in the same bracket as tobacco and
:00:34. > :00:38.is subject to the same rules? There is a very powerful case for being
:00:39. > :00:42.exactly that. In New Zealand, you could only buy a e-cigarettes at a
:00:43. > :00:46.pharmacy because they regard them as to be governed as a medicine.
:00:47. > :00:51.There are things we can do in Wales and we want to explore as a public.
:00:52. > :00:56.But as this is such a new area and the evidence is unclear, we don't
:00:57. > :01:00.want to throw the baby out with the bath water and prevent their use
:01:01. > :01:01.when they can be useful. We have to leave
:01:02. > :01:05.when they can be useful. We have to Not a complete denial! Hopefully a
:01:06. > :01:17.Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on
:01:18. > :01:22.the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not
:01:23. > :01:26.interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron
:01:27. > :01:29.hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put
:01:30. > :01:34.that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem
:01:35. > :01:41.peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill, and
:01:42. > :01:46.he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens
:01:47. > :01:50.now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to
:01:51. > :01:54.kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to
:01:55. > :01:58.bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at,
:01:59. > :02:01.and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will
:02:02. > :02:08.support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative
:02:09. > :02:13.manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory
:02:14. > :02:16.policy and not government policy that the government policy elite
:02:17. > :02:22.macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal
:02:23. > :02:25.Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the
:02:26. > :02:30.last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to
:02:31. > :02:33.enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private
:02:34. > :02:36.member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through
:02:37. > :02:40.everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through
:02:41. > :02:44.all the House of Commons stages. Sadly, to their discredit, Labour
:02:45. > :02:50.and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the
:02:51. > :02:54.Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative
:02:55. > :02:57.policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the
:02:58. > :03:01.Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case. The
:03:02. > :03:06.Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House
:03:07. > :03:10.of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a
:03:11. > :03:14.certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being
:03:15. > :03:17.presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is
:03:18. > :03:21.no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I
:03:22. > :03:27.was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains
:03:28. > :03:30.to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats
:03:31. > :03:35.sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as
:03:36. > :03:40.possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge
:03:41. > :03:45.numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might
:03:46. > :03:51.prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in
:03:52. > :03:55.constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote
:03:56. > :04:01.against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried
:04:02. > :04:06.to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the
:04:07. > :04:11.Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't
:04:12. > :04:15.think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would
:04:16. > :04:19.vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through
:04:20. > :04:23.the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons
:04:24. > :04:26.is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we
:04:27. > :04:30.did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from
:04:31. > :04:33.happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs
:04:34. > :04:38.through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is
:04:39. > :04:43.to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the
:04:44. > :04:46.union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy
:04:47. > :04:52.politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has
:04:53. > :04:58.no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a
:04:59. > :05:03.referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is
:05:04. > :05:06.not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without
:05:07. > :05:14.the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy
:05:15. > :05:18.is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what
:05:19. > :05:22.you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a
:05:23. > :05:25.strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that
:05:26. > :05:30.negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people.
:05:31. > :05:34.It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a
:05:35. > :05:37.generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to
:05:38. > :05:41.delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in
:05:42. > :05:45.our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any
:05:46. > :05:49.other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a
:05:50. > :05:56.referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is
:05:57. > :06:00.the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going?
:06:01. > :06:03.It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there
:06:04. > :06:06.is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run,
:06:07. > :06:12.particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he
:06:13. > :06:16.is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when
:06:17. > :06:19.they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is
:06:20. > :06:24.looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There
:06:25. > :06:27.will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas
:06:28. > :06:34.Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting
:06:35. > :06:39.point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more
:06:40. > :06:43.receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She
:06:44. > :06:48.has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not
:06:49. > :06:52.acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price
:06:53. > :06:57.to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the
:06:58. > :07:01.UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will
:07:02. > :07:06.eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David
:07:07. > :07:10.Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong
:07:11. > :07:19.position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office
:07:20. > :07:29.seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd
:07:30. > :07:31.once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of
:07:32. > :07:36.course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning,
:07:37. > :07:39.but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to
:07:40. > :07:45.renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a
:07:46. > :07:48.possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it
:07:49. > :07:55.is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party
:07:56. > :08:00.managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is
:08:01. > :08:04.going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's
:08:05. > :08:08.just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that
:08:09. > :08:15.some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point
:08:16. > :08:20.lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would
:08:21. > :08:24.require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to
:08:25. > :08:32.happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with
:08:33. > :08:38.wonderful rainbows and sunshine. But we can detect the beginnings of a
:08:39. > :08:43.shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers,
:08:44. > :08:48.Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the
:08:49. > :08:56.fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they
:08:57. > :09:01.can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an
:09:02. > :09:05.imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest
:09:06. > :09:08.party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the
:09:09. > :09:13.Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron
:09:14. > :09:16.will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this
:09:17. > :09:22.referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back
:09:23. > :09:26.to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other
:09:27. > :09:31.than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that
:09:32. > :09:36.and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems
:09:37. > :09:40.and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am
:09:41. > :09:45.absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I
:09:46. > :09:51.am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech
:09:52. > :09:57.he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law
:09:58. > :10:03.will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean
:10:04. > :10:05.everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the
:10:06. > :10:09.Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to
:10:10. > :10:13.address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the
:10:14. > :10:19.case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and
:10:20. > :10:26.reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important
:10:27. > :10:31.part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be
:10:32. > :10:36.turning in your direction, you are talking about the European
:10:37. > :10:39.referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the
:10:40. > :10:44.Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an
:10:45. > :10:49.amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in
:10:50. > :10:54.amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is
:10:55. > :10:56.that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where
:10:57. > :11:03.Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do
:11:04. > :11:06.that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is
:11:07. > :11:13.not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a
:11:14. > :11:17.contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines
:11:18. > :11:22.from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a
:11:23. > :11:27.Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I
:11:28. > :11:31.don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband
:11:32. > :11:36.government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some
:11:37. > :11:42.disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was
:11:43. > :11:45.talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind
:11:46. > :11:50.David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one
:11:51. > :11:56.part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting
:11:57. > :12:02.back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us.
:12:03. > :12:06.Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking
:12:07. > :12:12.through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib
:12:13. > :12:18.Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic
:12:19. > :12:23.coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has
:12:24. > :12:27.almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who
:12:28. > :12:30.Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at
:12:31. > :12:35.another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other
:12:36. > :12:40.jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his
:12:41. > :12:44.government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler
:12:45. > :12:47.is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the
:12:48. > :12:52.media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months.
:12:53. > :12:56.We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet.
:12:57. > :13:01.That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week
:13:02. > :13:05.at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at
:13:06. > :13:08.11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is
:13:09. > :13:36.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. This Bonnaire... The Spanish say
:13:37. > :13:38.he has broken your treaty. That man will go on
:13:39. > :13:43.to destroy thousands of lives and there's not a damn thing
:13:44. > :13:47.we can do to stop him.