:00:38. > :00:46.morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water,
:00:47. > :00:50.a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take
:00:51. > :00:56.control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry?
:00:57. > :00:59.Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns
:01:00. > :01:04.after he discovered he was employing a cleaner with no right to work here
:01:05. > :01:09.for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called
:01:10. > :01:15.Later in the programme: The leader in the Labour Party,
:01:16. > :01:19.Later in the programme: The leader of the Welsh Conservatives on the
:01:20. > :01:20.economy and tax. And more Welsh students are applying to English
:01:21. > :01:23.universities. Is that a students are applying to English
:01:24. > :01:26.In London after two days of disruption in the capital the Mayor
:01:27. > :01:36.Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground. All
:01:37. > :01:42.of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David
:01:43. > :01:47.Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two
:01:48. > :01:52.senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick
:01:53. > :01:57.Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their
:01:58. > :02:02.Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts.
:02:03. > :02:08.We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his
:02:09. > :02:13.cleaner and some lost documents. Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his
:02:14. > :02:15.resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who
:02:16. > :02:20.worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the
:02:21. > :02:25.UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the
:02:26. > :02:30.honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister.
:02:31. > :02:37.Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything
:02:38. > :02:41.wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that
:02:42. > :02:46.standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good
:02:47. > :02:50.resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a
:02:51. > :02:57.similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that.
:02:58. > :03:02.Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason
:03:03. > :03:06.why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers
:03:07. > :03:13.will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most
:03:14. > :03:17.interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot
:03:18. > :03:23.anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there
:03:24. > :03:29.is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost, was
:03:30. > :03:34.on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the
:03:35. > :03:38.embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will
:03:39. > :03:43.demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks
:03:44. > :03:47.to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the
:03:48. > :03:53.home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation
:03:54. > :03:59.letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the
:04:00. > :04:03.David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David
:04:04. > :04:12.Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state
:04:13. > :04:20.school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short
:04:21. > :04:24.supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it
:04:25. > :04:30.is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they
:04:31. > :04:36.will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked
:04:37. > :04:39.like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such
:04:40. > :04:47.a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for
:04:48. > :04:53.David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves
:04:54. > :05:01.everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is
:05:02. > :05:06.not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign? Do
:05:07. > :05:13.not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour.
:05:14. > :05:17.It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more
:05:18. > :05:21.storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the
:05:22. > :05:24.Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it
:05:25. > :05:32.has got a grip on the situation at last.
:05:33. > :05:36.For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the
:05:37. > :05:43.village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been
:05:44. > :05:49.dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a
:05:50. > :06:02.tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled.
:06:03. > :06:08.Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who
:06:09. > :06:14.faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what
:06:15. > :06:19.we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that
:06:20. > :06:25.many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it
:06:26. > :06:30.wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of
:06:31. > :06:35.dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that
:06:36. > :06:39.took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging
:06:40. > :06:44.again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we
:06:45. > :06:50.will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a
:06:51. > :06:55.better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been
:06:56. > :06:59.seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the
:07:00. > :07:07.meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to
:07:08. > :07:12.evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a
:07:13. > :07:16.big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can
:07:17. > :07:21.believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution
:07:22. > :07:27.for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by
:07:28. > :07:34.the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by
:07:35. > :07:40.local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now
:07:41. > :07:46.want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it
:07:47. > :07:48.promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here
:07:49. > :07:54.knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems
:07:55. > :07:58.we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to
:07:59. > :08:06.carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not
:08:07. > :08:10.to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging
:08:11. > :08:18.become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers
:08:19. > :08:23.have been asking for four years. When you wander along a footpath by
:08:24. > :08:30.a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity
:08:31. > :08:35.only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action
:08:36. > :08:41.right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing.
:08:42. > :08:48.Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging
:08:49. > :08:53.had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long?
:08:54. > :08:59.Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers
:09:00. > :09:03.and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level.
:09:04. > :09:08.They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the
:09:09. > :09:15.level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend
:09:16. > :09:21.to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the
:09:22. > :09:26.overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve
:09:27. > :09:30.infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on
:09:31. > :09:38.the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can
:09:39. > :09:42.store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous.
:09:43. > :09:48.Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging
:09:49. > :09:56.is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But
:09:57. > :10:01.look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know
:10:02. > :10:06.this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a
:10:07. > :10:11.problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good
:10:12. > :10:15.system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are
:10:16. > :10:20.serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There
:10:21. > :10:27.are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging,
:10:28. > :10:32.the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is
:10:33. > :10:37.considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out
:10:38. > :10:43.of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the
:10:44. > :10:48.future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the
:10:49. > :10:54.drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have
:10:55. > :11:02.floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done
:11:03. > :11:07.more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not
:11:08. > :11:11.the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to
:11:12. > :11:17.see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I
:11:18. > :11:22.would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place
:11:23. > :11:30.needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape.
:11:31. > :11:37.Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document
:11:38. > :11:40.called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of
:11:41. > :11:46.the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that
:11:47. > :11:53.is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you
:11:54. > :12:01.signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have
:12:02. > :12:07.seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for
:12:08. > :12:12.weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are
:12:13. > :12:15.managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means
:12:16. > :12:22.cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in
:12:23. > :12:30.certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to
:12:31. > :12:35.grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the
:12:36. > :12:40.flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at
:12:41. > :12:46.doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly.
:12:47. > :12:52.Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the
:12:53. > :12:56.case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and
:12:57. > :13:01.we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last
:13:02. > :13:06.year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and
:13:07. > :13:10.everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister
:13:11. > :13:14.and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local
:13:15. > :13:18.people run their land rather than being told what to do by the
:13:19. > :13:25.Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union?
:13:26. > :13:31.The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this.
:13:32. > :13:35.They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to
:13:36. > :13:42.dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a
:13:43. > :13:46.comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental
:13:47. > :13:51.improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for
:13:52. > :13:56.wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The
:13:57. > :14:01.farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all
:14:02. > :14:07.signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that
:14:08. > :14:15.vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they
:14:16. > :14:20.pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and
:14:21. > :14:23.this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards
:14:24. > :14:28.and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and
:14:29. > :14:33.that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of
:14:34. > :14:37.time. Last week saw the Labour Party
:14:38. > :14:41.adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions.
:14:42. > :14:47.Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband
:14:48. > :14:52.was elected Labour leader in 2010 by the electoral college system which
:14:53. > :14:56.gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would
:14:57. > :15:01.be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union
:15:02. > :15:07.member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They
:15:08. > :15:15.would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50%
:15:16. > :15:20.of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the
:15:21. > :15:24.National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as
:15:25. > :15:28.well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up
:15:29. > :15:34.to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in
:15:35. > :15:38.five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report
:15:39. > :15:46.saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a
:15:47. > :15:49.special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary
:15:50. > :15:58.Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In
:15:59. > :16:02.what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour
:16:03. > :16:06.Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have
:16:07. > :16:12.a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the
:16:13. > :16:17.monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general
:16:18. > :16:22.secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be
:16:23. > :16:27.in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that
:16:28. > :16:31.affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly, we
:16:32. > :16:39.want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who
:16:40. > :16:48.teach our children, power via -- fantastic British businesses, we
:16:49. > :16:52.want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in
:16:53. > :17:01.this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political
:17:02. > :17:06.party. We haven't got much time. The unions still have 50% of the vote at
:17:07. > :17:22.Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more
:17:23. > :17:33.member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power
:17:34. > :17:41.has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of
:17:42. > :17:45.the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership
:17:46. > :17:50.contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one
:17:51. > :17:57.vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a
:17:58. > :18:05.member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing...
:18:06. > :18:12.They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the
:18:13. > :18:17.Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes
:18:18. > :18:20.on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a
:18:21. > :18:26.system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of
:18:27. > :18:30.this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The
:18:31. > :18:36.old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:37. > :18:46.envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:47. > :18:51.turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if
:18:52. > :19:04.your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings,
:19:05. > :19:05.your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful
:19:06. > :19:16.than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to
:19:17. > :19:18.than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get
:19:19. > :19:28.to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give
:19:29. > :19:36.them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us,
:19:37. > :19:39.as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't
:19:40. > :19:44.have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their
:19:45. > :19:48.general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision,
:19:49. > :19:54.and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide
:19:55. > :19:59.that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto
:20:00. > :20:06.will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow
:20:07. > :20:10.people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do
:20:11. > :20:14.this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate
:20:15. > :20:20.for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have
:20:21. > :20:25.financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC
:20:26. > :20:30.and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the
:20:31. > :20:35.determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of
:20:36. > :20:44.income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is
:20:45. > :20:57.advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not
:20:58. > :21:07.-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the
:21:08. > :21:15.FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing
:21:16. > :21:18.Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed
:21:19. > :21:30.an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief
:21:31. > :21:39.executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one?
:21:40. > :21:45.Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently
:21:46. > :21:49.chairman of the chief executive? With the greatest respect, you are
:21:50. > :21:55.talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our
:21:56. > :22:01.country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100
:22:02. > :22:07.businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across
:22:08. > :22:22.the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the
:22:23. > :22:28.FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones,
:22:29. > :22:33.they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private
:22:34. > :22:37.sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized
:22:38. > :22:40.businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an
:22:41. > :22:51.important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a
:22:52. > :22:58.single chairman from the FTSE 250, correct? I don't know all the
:22:59. > :23:09.chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss
:23:10. > :23:12.of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but
:23:13. > :23:22.the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto
:23:23. > :23:32.for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you,
:23:33. > :23:46.Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick
:23:47. > :23:53.it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think
:23:54. > :23:59.you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting
:24:00. > :24:03.things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I
:24:04. > :24:07.think he was referring to the 50p rate of tax is that he made some
:24:08. > :24:14.comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax
:24:15. > :24:17.from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has
:24:18. > :24:23.his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me
:24:24. > :24:27.come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't
:24:28. > :24:32.you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become
:24:33. > :24:38.counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates
:24:39. > :24:43.possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less
:24:44. > :24:50.money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which
:24:51. > :24:54.would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I
:24:55. > :25:07.mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French
:25:08. > :25:15.higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your
:25:16. > :25:22.pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more
:25:23. > :25:27.tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the
:25:28. > :25:34.level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach
:25:35. > :25:38.a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I
:25:39. > :25:42.give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain -
:25:43. > :25:49.the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can
:25:50. > :25:53.get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you
:25:54. > :25:57.wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in
:25:58. > :26:07.office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure,
:26:08. > :26:13.though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three
:26:14. > :26:22.years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That
:26:23. > :26:26.was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least
:26:27. > :26:32.possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you
:26:33. > :26:39.promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if
:26:40. > :26:49.you get your way, the richest 1% currently account for 70 5% of all
:26:50. > :26:56.tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of
:26:57. > :27:05.them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the
:27:06. > :27:08.top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover
:27:09. > :27:23.companies, the average managing director of that gets around
:27:24. > :27:32.?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the 0.1%
:27:33. > :27:38.of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over
:27:39. > :27:43.14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If
:27:44. > :27:50.they go because you are going to take over half their income, you
:27:51. > :27:57.have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at
:27:58. > :28:01.tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not
:28:02. > :28:06.controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not
:28:07. > :28:16.unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one
:28:17. > :28:24.other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example
:28:25. > :28:31.in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major
:28:32. > :28:37.economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are
:28:38. > :28:42.coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the
:28:43. > :28:49.fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden. We
:28:50. > :28:53.have run out of time but thank you for being here.
:28:54. > :28:57.Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib
:28:58. > :29:00.Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should
:29:01. > :29:03.head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have
:29:04. > :29:06.continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other
:29:07. > :29:30.senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's
:29:31. > :29:33.Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school
:29:34. > :29:36.children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague
:29:37. > :29:38.schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the
:29:39. > :29:41.man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws
:29:42. > :29:44.is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the
:29:45. > :29:47.decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know
:29:48. > :29:50.the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When
:29:51. > :29:53.you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for
:29:54. > :29:56.him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he
:29:57. > :30:07.hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this
:30:08. > :30:17.is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense
:30:18. > :30:21.that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also
:30:22. > :30:25.understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove
:30:26. > :30:31.to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems
:30:32. > :30:34.think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the
:30:35. > :30:42.election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition
:30:43. > :30:45.post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more
:30:46. > :30:47.significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander's
:30:48. > :30:50.recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne
:30:51. > :30:53.to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this
:30:54. > :30:56.builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of
:30:57. > :30:59.people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice
:31:00. > :31:01.people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative
:31:02. > :31:15.policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain
:31:16. > :31:19.his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that
:31:20. > :31:27.we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if
:31:28. > :31:33.we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the
:31:34. > :31:37.Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation
:31:38. > :31:43.strategy was always likely as 2015 approached, so is there evidence it
:31:44. > :31:47.works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge
:31:48. > :31:52.problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their
:31:53. > :31:55.coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what
:31:56. > :32:01.they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they
:32:02. > :32:06.are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of
:32:07. > :32:11.the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and
:32:12. > :32:16.irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and
:32:17. > :32:24.the country is back on its feet, the Lib Dems are choosing the time to
:32:25. > :32:28.step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect
:32:29. > :32:35.coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the
:32:36. > :32:41.Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And
:32:42. > :32:44.with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to
:32:45. > :32:51.be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer
:32:52. > :33:01.Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard
:33:02. > :33:05.Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories
:33:06. > :33:10.on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to
:33:11. > :33:18.Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not
:33:19. > :33:22.privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for
:33:23. > :33:28.some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being
:33:29. > :33:35.sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks,
:33:36. > :33:40.almost an enemy within strategy. When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws
:33:41. > :33:47.and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives,
:33:48. > :33:51.when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had
:33:52. > :33:56.a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of
:33:57. > :34:02.policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy
:34:03. > :34:08.within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw
:34:09. > :34:11.from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can
:34:12. > :34:16.put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky
:34:17. > :34:24.strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need
:34:25. > :34:29.the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the
:34:30. > :34:32.coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working
:34:33. > :34:38.together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most
:34:39. > :34:46.of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties.
:34:47. > :34:54.Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to
:34:55. > :34:59.see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority
:35:00. > :35:03.Government because it would be easier for legislation. The
:35:04. > :35:07.legislation you could not get through would not get through
:35:08. > :35:12.whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there
:35:13. > :35:16.probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment,
:35:17. > :35:21.despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much
:35:22. > :35:25.difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the
:35:26. > :35:30.committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government
:35:31. > :35:34.that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is
:35:35. > :35:39.important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and
:35:40. > :35:44.sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row
:35:45. > :35:49.goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it
:35:50. > :35:56.carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out. If
:35:57. > :36:01.it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within
:36:02. > :36:06.strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another
:36:07. > :36:10.16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never
:36:11. > :36:17.thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier
:36:18. > :36:21.Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support.
:36:22. > :36:24.Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a
:36:25. > :36:28.deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the
:36:29. > :36:34.Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to
:36:35. > :36:39.make our own case separately on. Do you get fed up when you hear
:36:40. > :36:43.constant Lib Dem attacks on you? What makes me fed up is my own party
:36:44. > :36:50.cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to
:36:51. > :36:57.have this much more open debate. I would like to see my own party
:36:58. > :36:59.leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal
:37:00. > :37:04.Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want
:37:05. > :37:08.to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can
:37:09. > :37:12.get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the
:37:13. > :37:16.Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a
:37:17. > :37:26.referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down
:37:27. > :37:30.the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from
:37:31. > :37:35.the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a
:37:36. > :37:40.representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a
:37:41. > :37:46.centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as
:37:47. > :37:52.many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem
:37:53. > :37:56.voters to come back to the fold? The site is we have lost over half our
:37:57. > :38:01.vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls
:38:02. > :38:07.of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election. I
:38:08. > :38:13.welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking
:38:14. > :38:17.about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the
:38:18. > :38:22.last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a
:38:23. > :38:25.much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make
:38:26. > :38:32.sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you
:38:33. > :38:36.want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition
:38:37. > :38:42.will survive all the way to the election or will it break up
:38:43. > :38:48.beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic
:38:49. > :38:51.plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to
:38:52. > :38:58.sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When
:38:59. > :39:02.will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but
:39:03. > :39:10.it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it
:39:11. > :39:14.will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many
:39:15. > :39:19.ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in
:39:20. > :39:23.the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we
:39:24. > :39:32.have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from
:39:33. > :39:37.the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made.
:39:38. > :39:42.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be
:39:43. > :39:59.Has the firing gun sounded for the looking
:40:00. > :40:02.Has the firing gun sounded for the 2016 assembly elections, with a
:40:03. > :40:05.Conservative announcement to help home buyers? And, could these be the
:40:06. > :40:08.most taxing assembly elections yet? Also, with more Welsh students
:40:09. > :40:12.applying to study in England, we look at whether it matters where
:40:13. > :40:15.they go to university? But first, Andrew RT Davies, who
:40:16. > :40:19.leads the Conservatives in Cardiff Bay, joins me in the studio. This
:40:20. > :40:25.week they announced plans to scrap stamp duty for homes under ?250,000.
:40:26. > :40:28.Power over stamp duty, and other taxes, are being devolved to the
:40:29. > :40:30.Welsh government - a Welsh government Mr Davies hopes to lead
:40:31. > :40:44.after the next election in 2016. Wellcome. Let us start with the
:40:45. > :40:50.stamp duty announcement which you say would cost ?20 million more.
:40:51. > :40:55.Where would you get that money from? Ultimately, let's not forget we are
:40:56. > :41:00.leaving the money in people 's pockets so we will create more
:41:01. > :41:04.economic activity which we can fund through realignment of the budgets
:41:05. > :41:10.and also in the overall Welsh budget. We are about using these
:41:11. > :41:15.powers to empower people to get on in life. Create an entrepreneurial
:41:16. > :41:19.society in Wales. If you look at the whole package, everything we have
:41:20. > :41:26.done over 18 months is about empowering individuals. Sticking
:41:27. > :41:32.with stamp duty comic you are not telling us where the cuts would be.
:41:33. > :41:39.The overall housing budget is ?570 million. The current government
:41:40. > :41:45.found ?52 million to buy an airport last year in cash. We would
:41:46. > :41:48.prioritise this because it would be one of our key policies to allow
:41:49. > :41:54.people to get on the housing ladder and a stake in Welsh life. People
:41:55. > :41:58.say they find it increasingly difficult to get over the last
:41:59. > :42:03.hurdle of money together to buy a house of their dreams. But there
:42:04. > :42:09.will be more pressure at the next election to explain how you have
:42:10. > :42:13.costed your policies because the tax powers the Welsh government is
:42:14. > :42:18.acquiring. Shouldn't your priority be to build more homes are not
:42:19. > :42:23.cupped stamp duty? But by creating activity you will be building more
:42:24. > :42:28.homes. Many house-builders say that large parts of Wales are an economic
:42:29. > :42:31.call for them to deliver housing of any number because of the restraints
:42:32. > :42:38.put on them. With this modest policy, it is only at the lower end
:42:39. > :42:45.of the stamp duty threshold we are targeting, by removing stamp duty,
:42:46. > :42:49.we would create that first stepping stone for couples, single people or
:42:50. > :42:54.people wanting to get on the property ladder, to say there is
:42:55. > :43:00.your stake in Welsh life. The Treasury says it would cost Jacques
:43:01. > :43:09.Chirac create a significant cost to the Exchequer. What politicians in
:43:10. > :43:13.Wales is need to focus on what we can do from the Welsh assembly and
:43:14. > :43:19.the Welsh government with the powers we've had. We haven't been slow in
:43:20. > :43:25.coming forward with ideas to drive Wales forward. We have a strategy
:43:26. > :43:29.about getting smaller and medium-sized businesses together and
:43:30. > :43:35.we have policies to improve the education system. I want to stay
:43:36. > :43:42.with the tax proposals. Coming to Wales as a consequence of the Wales
:43:43. > :43:48.Bill. You and the Welsh Secretary have had a disagreement over the
:43:49. > :43:54.income tax powers, haven't you? There is a difference in what is the
:43:55. > :43:59.furniture, shall we say, that will come to the Welsh parliament but we
:44:00. > :44:03.do not disagree on the principle that any future Welsh government is
:44:04. > :44:06.held accountable for the money or some of it that it raises and
:44:07. > :44:13.spends. There isn't a cigarette paper between David Jones myself on
:44:14. > :44:18.that principle. But there is on the visible as to whether you should
:44:19. > :44:23.vary the tax bands. You want that power. Who speaks up for Welsh
:44:24. > :44:32.Conservative policy on this issue? When we voted on the recommendations
:44:33. > :44:36.in November 2012 that we endorse the policy in its entirety. From a UK
:44:37. > :44:42.position, they had to look at a whole range of scenarios and they
:44:43. > :44:46.want to put a lock step on. That will be debated, but we don't
:44:47. > :44:53.disagree on the principle that any future wealth government needs to
:44:54. > :45:00.have accountability. What I think is extraordinary is the Shadow Welsh
:45:01. > :45:04.Secretary last -- Welsh Grand Committee saying that Wales would
:45:05. > :45:09.never ask a powers over income tax. That contradicts the First Minister
:45:10. > :45:16.and the finance minister. He is allowed to get away with that. That
:45:17. > :45:22.cannot stand. Let us stick with your policies. February 's tax-cutting
:45:23. > :45:27.month, isn't it? You said you would like to lower the income tax to a
:45:28. > :45:31.40p income tax rate. But the powers on offer from the UK Government blow
:45:32. > :45:34.that out of the water. You don't seem to have a lot of influence
:45:35. > :45:40.within the British Conservative Party to get the end powers and
:45:41. > :45:47.enact the policies you want, do you? We have delivered the most exciting
:45:48. > :45:54.inward investment by the upgrading of the mainline to Swansea
:45:55. > :45:59.electrification. We have delivered silk one and we are going forward
:46:00. > :46:04.with the Welsh draft bill. We are delivering on proposals for
:46:05. > :46:08.electrification elsewhere in Wales and it could revolutionise transport
:46:09. > :46:14.in North Wales. We are delivering on... But you are not delivering the
:46:15. > :46:18.policies you want to on the lockstep. But there will be
:46:19. > :46:23.differences here and there. Ultimately, over the basic principle
:46:24. > :46:30.of accountability and responsibility that was held in the Silk One
:46:31. > :46:35.recommendation, we believe unanimously that any future Welsh
:46:36. > :46:39.government believes to have -- needs to have an element of accountability
:46:40. > :46:46.on what it spends and raises. Do you agree the tax powers are useless if
:46:47. > :46:57.they came after a referendum? I don't know what the position is at
:46:58. > :47:02.the moment for the Minister. Basic rate -- rate income tax would cost
:47:03. > :47:06.200 billion pounds on its own for a reduction. I don't know what the
:47:07. > :47:09.First Minister 's position is because Owen Smith said they would
:47:10. > :47:15.not ask for these powers and he said they would never ask to draw these
:47:16. > :47:20.powers down. That puts the Shadow Secretary of State and the fast
:47:21. > :47:27.Minister -- First Minister at loggerheads. You have listed some of
:47:28. > :47:32.your other policies in terms of regeneration and and more, or will
:47:33. > :47:38.this be fought predominantly on the economy? Everything in -- revolves
:47:39. > :47:42.around the economy. If you want a good education system you have to
:47:43. > :47:49.have opportunities for people to find jobs. If you want a good health
:47:50. > :47:53.service, the economy has two provide revenues to provide that. The
:47:54. > :47:57.economy in any election is a clear -- key battle ground. After Labour
:47:58. > :48:02.though, if you want real change you have to look at parties who put
:48:03. > :48:08.solutions forward. The Conservatives have put them forward on inward
:48:09. > :48:12.investment, investment, health... You would prefer the battle ground
:48:13. > :48:16.because the UK Government has cut so heavily public spending. You are
:48:17. > :48:21.worried about being the party of cuts and no one would trust them
:48:22. > :48:25.with investing in public services, would they? We have stabilised the
:48:26. > :48:30.economic picture so that we have record rates of low interest, the
:48:31. > :48:35.most vulnerable getting out of the tax take altogether with a massive
:48:36. > :48:39.tax cut to those at the lower end of the tax bracket and we have complete
:48:40. > :48:44.confidence that we will have the fastest growing economy in Europe.
:48:45. > :48:49.That is a government that has delivered. As Welsh Conservatives,
:48:50. > :48:52.we want to make sure Wales can share in that prosperity and it is about
:48:53. > :49:04.putting money in people 's pockets, not cutting. It is the longest
:49:05. > :49:10.period of decline in real money -- real prosperity since 1964 says the
:49:11. > :49:16.ONS. We have achieved a stability of the economic picture, pared down the
:49:17. > :49:20.deficit and made sure that people on the lowest levels of pay enjoyed
:49:21. > :49:27.large tax break because we lifted the threshold. The top 1% of earners
:49:28. > :49:30.in the UK paid 27% of the tax take so we make sure that those with the
:49:31. > :49:35.biggest shoulders carried the biggest weight and rightly so, but
:49:36. > :49:39.we also make sure the economy goes forward as the strongest going
:49:40. > :49:45.economy -- growing economy in Western Europe.
:49:46. > :49:48.Does it matter where Welsh students go to university? The Welsh
:49:49. > :49:53.government pays their fees wherever they go. Latest figures show
:49:54. > :49:56.increasing numbers are turning their backs on Welsh institutions and
:49:57. > :50:02.applying to go across the border instead.
:50:03. > :50:09.It might not look its best in the miserable weather but Bristol has
:50:10. > :50:14.always been an attractive destination for Welsh students.
:50:15. > :50:17.Latest students showed more Welsh students are going to England when
:50:18. > :50:21.it comes to choosing a university. The Welsh government pays a bulk of
:50:22. > :50:26.their tuition fees even if they decide to cross the border. I have
:50:27. > :50:30.come to meet to students from Cardiff to see why they have decided
:50:31. > :50:37.to study in Bristol. Did the fees policy have anything to do with it?
:50:38. > :50:41.It had less of an impact on my decision because it didn't matter if
:50:42. > :50:44.it was an English or Welsh university as the fees would have
:50:45. > :50:54.been the same. It took away that asp act. I did look at the universities
:50:55. > :51:03.for their own merits -- it took away that aspect. I think I would have
:51:04. > :51:11.considered it a lot more. If it meant I had to pay more in the
:51:12. > :51:16.future, if I had come to England, I would've considered Welsh
:51:17. > :51:20.university. I don't really think of the tuition fees because they come
:51:21. > :51:26.out of my salary so it is another form of tax, to be honest. It
:51:27. > :51:30.wouldn't have had a major impact on my decision. The university 's
:51:31. > :51:33.director of student admissions say paying the tuition fees from the
:51:34. > :51:39.Welsh government has given Welsh students more freedom to study where
:51:40. > :51:42.they like. Bristol has always been popular with Welsh students and the
:51:43. > :51:48.Welsh government 's approach has meant that they have continued to
:51:49. > :51:53.make education choices on education grounds and not factor in financial
:51:54. > :51:58.incentive or disincentive. Would you be concerned if the policy changed
:51:59. > :52:04.in the future? If the Welsh government decides it is not
:52:05. > :52:08.affordable? It is early to comment because we don't have any detail on
:52:09. > :52:13.what new policy might be, but we will watch it carefully. It would be
:52:14. > :52:17.a great loss to the University of Bristol to see a decline in our
:52:18. > :52:21.Welsh numbers. That is a reference to a review set out by the Welsh
:52:22. > :52:28.government to see if the current policy is sustainable. It will not
:52:29. > :52:34.report until after the next election is at the Welsh assembly. The rain
:52:35. > :52:38.means most of the students here are indoors. Latest figures show a 10%
:52:39. > :52:44.drop in the number of Welsh teenagers choosing to study in Wales
:52:45. > :52:48.since 2010. Over the same period, numbers applying to universities in
:52:49. > :52:53.England has gone up nearly 20%. Some think it's time for the Welsh
:52:54. > :52:57.government to take a rain check. The latest figures from the new
:52:58. > :53:10.university admissions service, UCAS, is show a trend.
:53:11. > :53:17.What is going on? We are starting to see problems with regard to the
:53:18. > :53:24.level of investment in higher investment -- higher education in
:53:25. > :53:28.Wales with respect to England. The quality of living accommodation and
:53:29. > :53:33.the quality of teaching blocks. This is a pattern since devolution is
:53:34. > :53:37.where levels of investment have been lessened in Wales. I wonder if part
:53:38. > :53:42.of it is the reputational damage we have suffered in Wales over the past
:53:43. > :53:48.few years in respect of education. We had an undignified fight in the
:53:49. > :53:56.higher education sector conducted by the previous education minister and
:53:57. > :54:01.the education sector. We have an extraordinary fees paying policy
:54:02. > :54:06.here in Wales which enables a lot of English universities to benefit at
:54:07. > :54:07.the expense of Welsh universities. They get the money and Welsh
:54:08. > :54:32.universities don't. Some might say that as a challenge
:54:33. > :54:38.to Welsh institutions to raise their game. It is something for the review
:54:39. > :54:41.into higher education funding to consider. Opposition parties have
:54:42. > :54:46.been in for talks on that issue this week with the education minister.
:54:47. > :54:52.They want the timetable altered so there is some confusion before, not
:54:53. > :54:55.after, the 2016 elections. Whatever the politicians decide, it is likely
:54:56. > :54:59.thousands of Welsh students will still feel the grass is greener on
:55:00. > :55:03.the other side of the border. Tomos Livingstone reporting there.
:55:04. > :55:06.I'm joined in the studio by the Plaid Cymru AM, Lord Elis-Thomas,
:55:07. > :55:15.and Labour AM for Swansea East, Mike Hedges.
:55:16. > :55:18.Lord Elis-Thomas, does it matter if Welsh students go looking in England
:55:19. > :55:25.for a better or more appropriate education? What matters is that we
:55:26. > :55:30.have a continuing open system of student exchange within the UK and I
:55:31. > :55:35.would say within Europe because it is very important to the economy of
:55:36. > :55:41.north-west Wales, in particular, we attract students and international
:55:42. > :55:46.students. With the UK Government and the Visa system and the fact that
:55:47. > :55:51.there is an attitude, I'm afraid, that is not very internationalist on
:55:52. > :55:57.the part of the UK Government. For the last ten years, the assembly has
:55:58. > :56:01.agonised over this going round and round on the question. Should it
:56:02. > :56:10.stay with the students, the money, or go to the institutions? What is
:56:11. > :56:13.the solution? It is Welsh students giving an opportunity where they
:56:14. > :56:18.wouldn't go to university otherwise. To benefit from a large number of
:56:19. > :56:22.English and international students coming to Wales, that's valuable.
:56:23. > :56:26.The only thing we are trying to do is increase the number of Welsh
:56:27. > :56:31.students going to Oxford or Cambridge. My daughter and other
:56:32. > :56:36.students are going to visit Oxford in March. It is important we make
:56:37. > :56:41.sure our children get the best possible opportunities. We are
:56:42. > :56:48.discriminating against English students and that is worrying. They
:56:49. > :56:52.pay full fees and the others don't. Sticking with agonising questions,
:56:53. > :56:58.these income tax powers on offer to Wales and the lock step I was
:56:59. > :57:03.discussing, the first minister says they are useless. Do you agree? They
:57:04. > :57:15.are essential for a proper constitution for Wales. Like the
:57:16. > :57:19.American used to say, if you look across Europe... Wherever you look
:57:20. > :57:24.in any kind of federal system, and that is what we have now, there is
:57:25. > :57:32.fiscal federalism and any responsibility for part of the spend
:57:33. > :57:38.for the services which the governments by -- provides that the
:57:39. > :57:41.responsibility is there of tax-raising or tax variants. Not to
:57:42. > :57:47.do that is not to have a proper democracy.
:57:48. > :57:50.Alan Smith and other Labour MPs opened the issue of tax
:57:51. > :57:55.competition, that if you allow different parts of the UK to set
:57:56. > :57:59.their own taxes it undermines the UK. Do you worry about that? We
:58:00. > :58:04.still have not got fair funding for Wales and that is important. With
:58:05. > :58:12.the lockstep, no one can do anything. I would increase the
:58:13. > :58:18.higher rate by 5p or up to 50p. I am convinced the ball. We have seen it
:58:19. > :58:22.happened in Scotland where they had the ability to vary the rate of
:58:23. > :58:27.income tax by 3p in the pound up or down and it has had those powers
:58:28. > :58:32.since 1999. They never even considered using it. What we need is
:58:33. > :58:36.to get fair funding first and then the lock step removed. Then we can
:58:37. > :58:43.have a debate about all the little problems that exist. Like how income
:58:44. > :58:47.tax ferries year-on-year by up to ?300 million in Wales and that you
:58:48. > :58:52.have difficulty identifying people who live either side of the border.
:58:53. > :58:59.Your opponents say there is complete -- confusion about what Labour 's
:59:00. > :59:03.position is here. Who is in charge? Carl Wynne Jones is leader of the
:59:04. > :59:11.Welsh Labour Party and elected as such. There should be no confusion.
:59:12. > :59:20.What are the chances of winning the next election? It is a matter for
:59:21. > :59:25.the Welsh people to decide. Do the Welsh people want these powers? I
:59:26. > :59:29.think they want to be convinced. We are operating in the context where
:59:30. > :59:35.there will be substantial changes in Scotland whatever happens. I think
:59:36. > :59:38.it will be close either way and I think there will be changes in the
:59:39. > :59:48.taxation regime in relation to Scotland. There will be an issue
:59:49. > :59:54.further fiscal federalism. The Treasury has given no hints it is
:59:55. > :00:00.in... The Treasury has got to be split up. The UK Treasury should be
:00:01. > :00:04.the UK Treasury and there should be a Welsh Treasury and a Scottish
:00:05. > :00:09.Treasury and an Irish Treasury. There has to be a common fiscal
:00:10. > :00:13.board of some kind that deals with any transfers that take place. That
:00:14. > :00:18.is what happens in the rest of the world. Do you think these questions
:00:19. > :00:23.change the dynamics of politics in Wales? Are they becoming more
:00:24. > :00:27.mature? Maybe. If you look at Scotland, they have a no detriment
:00:28. > :00:34.rule where if changes are made on allowances or bands, if Scotland is
:00:35. > :00:39.any worse off... We haven't even got that position in Wales at the moment
:00:40. > :00:42.which may be an oversight by the Westminster government, but it would
:00:43. > :00:47.leave Wales in a position where we would not know how much money we
:00:48. > :00:52.ended up getting an partway down the line, are there any changes in bands
:00:53. > :00:56.or whatever, the Welsh government would have a hit it wasn't even
:00:57. > :01:03.expecting and then it would have to borrow. From the view of political
:01:04. > :01:07.parties, we are gearing up for a different election, don't you think?
:01:08. > :01:14.Are they up for the challenge of coming up with different ideas on
:01:15. > :01:20.using these powers? We are certainly up for deciding what to spend the
:01:21. > :01:24.money on capital schemes. The amount we are being offered is fairly low,
:01:25. > :01:31.much less than Scotland on a per capita basis. Northern Ireland have
:01:32. > :01:35.a limit but they can exceed it without anyone taking any action. We
:01:36. > :01:43.don't know how we will be treated but borrowing power is incredibly
:01:44. > :01:48.important for Wales. When the assembly got its lawmaking powers in
:01:49. > :01:53.2011, the phrase was, no more excuses, and it is the same with
:01:54. > :01:58.tax-raising powers. Is Welsh politics up to the challenge to take
:01:59. > :02:02.the strain and come up with ideas? It has to be. The problem we have is
:02:03. > :02:12.there is no clear way forward. I agree entirely with the First
:02:13. > :02:15.Minister's demands as these are constitutional issues that need to
:02:16. > :02:23.be dealt with at that level. I wish we could move on from the work done
:02:24. > :02:26.in the committee and the commission to a proper constantly --
:02:27. > :02:31.constitutional convention which would create the kind of federal
:02:32. > :02:35.structures the UK needs. It will have to happen whatever happens in
:02:36. > :02:43.Scotland because it will be a close run thing. Whatever Owen Smith says,
:02:44. > :02:47.we have to face up to it. Thank you both very much. It
:02:48. > :02:56.we have to face up to it. Thank you a voice. Both of you, thank you so
:02:57. > :03:00.much. Andrew, it is back to you. Can David Cameron get a grip on the
:03:01. > :03:04.floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in
:03:05. > :03:07.the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the
:03:08. > :03:15.House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the
:03:16. > :03:22.weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a
:03:23. > :03:29.clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on
:03:30. > :03:35.the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment
:03:36. > :03:39.Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am
:03:40. > :03:45.really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was
:03:46. > :03:48.the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the
:03:49. > :03:54.Government and the Government has taken over the running of the
:03:55. > :03:59.environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious
:04:00. > :04:02.crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are
:04:03. > :04:09.dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed
:04:10. > :04:14.is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six
:04:15. > :04:19.months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the
:04:20. > :04:23.Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging
:04:24. > :04:28.and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were
:04:29. > :04:32.put ahead of people if you like. All of that is collapsing in very
:04:33. > :04:38.difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for
:04:39. > :04:41.them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is
:04:42. > :04:45.acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments
:04:46. > :04:49.and the first priority is the protection of life, second property
:04:50. > :04:55.and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that
:04:56. > :04:59.framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord
:05:00. > :05:03.Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the
:05:04. > :05:08.summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is
:05:09. > :05:12.making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge,
:05:13. > :05:17.but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a
:05:18. > :05:24.whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the
:05:25. > :05:28.whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested
:05:29. > :05:34.in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the
:05:35. > :05:38.pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those
:05:39. > :05:42.towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can
:05:43. > :05:47.absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way
:05:48. > :05:51.we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew
:05:52. > :05:55.Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must
:05:56. > :05:59.be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the
:06:00. > :06:06.chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris
:06:07. > :06:10.Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the
:06:11. > :06:17.Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no
:06:18. > :06:24.angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good
:06:25. > :06:30.crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not
:06:31. > :06:33.understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of
:06:34. > :06:40.wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged
:06:41. > :06:43.on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the
:06:44. > :06:49.Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The
:06:50. > :06:53.great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be
:06:54. > :06:57.sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency
:06:58. > :07:03.spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird
:07:04. > :07:08.sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village
:07:09. > :07:12.which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some
:07:13. > :07:17.farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put
:07:18. > :07:26.a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then
:07:27. > :07:29.they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird
:07:30. > :07:34.sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the
:07:35. > :07:40.Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency.
:07:41. > :07:45.There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does
:07:46. > :07:51.what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a
:07:52. > :07:56.plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do
:07:57. > :08:04.will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe
:08:05. > :08:09.by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably
:08:10. > :08:14.incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It
:08:15. > :08:19.would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is,
:08:20. > :08:25.does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was
:08:26. > :08:32.showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is
:08:33. > :08:35.UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The
:08:36. > :08:40.Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in
:08:41. > :08:44.and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories
:08:45. > :08:53.lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP
:08:54. > :08:58.come second? It looks like that. A poll this week showed that Labour is
:08:59. > :09:03.way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election
:09:04. > :09:08.for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should
:09:09. > :09:11.still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If
:09:12. > :09:17.they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in
:09:18. > :09:23.Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP
:09:24. > :09:27.come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might
:09:28. > :09:34.suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for
:09:35. > :09:39.is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies
:09:40. > :09:45.a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes. But it could also take Labour votes.
:09:46. > :09:50.Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out
:09:51. > :09:57.on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird: ,
:09:58. > :10:03.his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange.
:10:04. > :10:10.Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the
:10:11. > :10:15.Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from
:10:16. > :10:20.a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in
:10:21. > :10:28.the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable
:10:29. > :10:32.member for Bridgwater, be quiet, if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is
:10:33. > :10:51.rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order.
:10:52. > :10:57.You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need
:10:58. > :11:01.to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's
:11:02. > :11:07.questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not
:11:08. > :11:16.1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he
:11:17. > :11:19.beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable
:11:20. > :11:22.person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the
:11:23. > :11:27.confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first
:11:28. > :11:32.place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this
:11:33. > :11:39.strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It
:11:40. > :11:44.will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent
:11:45. > :11:47.questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the
:11:48. > :11:52.deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call
:11:53. > :11:57.that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is
:11:58. > :12:05.true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room
:12:06. > :12:09.to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more
:12:10. > :12:15.power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered
:12:16. > :12:22.and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last
:12:23. > :12:30.week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the
:12:31. > :12:36.tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think
:12:37. > :12:40.many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great
:12:41. > :12:45.speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who
:12:46. > :12:50.have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to
:12:51. > :12:55.breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when
:12:56. > :13:00.they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government
:13:01. > :13:06.and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People
:13:07. > :13:13.like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him. We
:13:14. > :13:17.carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and
:13:18. > :13:21.we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I
:13:22. > :13:28.was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly
:13:29. > :13:33.mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his
:13:34. > :13:40.deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who
:13:41. > :13:49.does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on
:13:50. > :13:52.BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the
:13:53. > :13:59.Sunday Politics.