:00:37. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:43.Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as
:00:44. > :00:48.Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his
:00:49. > :00:53.European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like
:00:54. > :00:55.he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram
:00:56. > :01:00.Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So
:01:01. > :01:05.what's the verdict - full marks, or must try harder? He joins us for the
:01:06. > :01:08.Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties
:01:09. > :01:15.And I talk with the Welsh Liberal appeal. We'll look at some
:01:16. > :01:18.And I talk with the Welsh Liberal Democrats leader Kirsty Williams
:01:19. > :01:23.about the health of the party, the NHS and new powers for the Assembly.
:01:24. > :01:27.about the health of the party, the and people deal with benefit
:01:28. > :01:31.changes. And tightening household finances.
:01:32. > :01:35.And with me, as always, three journalists who'd make a clean sweep
:01:36. > :01:40.if they were handing out Oscars for political punditry in LA tonight.
:01:41. > :01:45.But just like poor old Leonardo DiCaprio they've never won so much
:01:46. > :01:48.as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan
:01:49. > :01:50.Ganesh. Instead of acceptance speeches they'll be tweeting faster
:01:51. > :01:57.than the tears roll down Gwyneth Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as
:01:58. > :02:01.luvvie as we get on this show. Events have been moving quickly in
:02:02. > :02:04.Ukraine this weekend. The interim government in Kiev has put the
:02:05. > :02:06.Ukrainian military on full combat alert after Russia's parliament
:02:07. > :02:11.rubber-stamped the deployment of Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine.
:02:12. > :02:13.Russian troops seem already to be in control of the mainly
:02:14. > :02:17.Russian-speaking Crimea region, where Russia has a massive naval
:02:18. > :02:20.base. President Obama told President Putin that Russia has flouted
:02:21. > :02:28.international law by sending in Russian troops but the Kremlin is
:02:29. > :02:30.taking no notice. This is now turning into the worst stand-off
:02:31. > :02:32.between Russia and the West since the conflict between Georgia and
:02:33. > :02:38.Russia in 2008, though nobody expects any kind of military
:02:39. > :02:43.response from the West. Foreign Secretary William Hague is on his
:02:44. > :02:45.way to Kiev this morning to show his support for the new government,
:02:46. > :02:48.though how long it will survive is another matter. We can speak to our
:02:49. > :02:57.correspondent David Stern, he's in Kiev.
:02:58. > :03:01.As things look from Kiev, can we take it they've lost Crimea,
:03:02. > :03:08.As things look from Kiev, can we now in all essence under Russian
:03:09. > :03:12.control? Yes, well for the moment, Crimea is under Russian control.
:03:13. > :03:20.Russian troops in unmarked uniforms have moved throughout the peninsula
:03:21. > :03:27.taking up various positions, also at the Ismis which links Ukraine into
:03:28. > :03:31.Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon troops there. Three units have been
:03:32. > :03:37.captured according to a top officials. We can say at the moment
:03:38. > :03:41.Russia controls the peninsula. It should also be said, also they have
:03:42. > :03:45.the support of the ethnic Russian population. The ethnic Russians make
:03:46. > :03:50.up the majority of the population. They are also not entirely in
:03:51. > :03:57.control because there are other groups, namely the Tatar as and the
:03:58. > :04:03.ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at least at the moment tacitly
:04:04. > :04:09.resisting. We'll see what they'll start to do in the coming days.
:04:10. > :04:15.David, I'm putting up some pictures showing Russian troops digging in on
:04:16. > :04:19.the border between Crimea and Ukraine. I get the sense that is
:04:20. > :04:26.just for show. There is, I would assume, no possibility that the
:04:27. > :04:31.Ukrainians could attempt to retake Crimea by military force? It seems
:04:32. > :04:37.that the Ukrainians are weighing their options right now. Their
:04:38. > :04:40.options are very limited. Any head-to-head conflict with Russia
:04:41. > :04:45.would probably work against the Ukrainians. They seem to be taking
:04:46. > :04:50.more of a long-term gain. They are waiting for the figs's first move.
:04:51. > :04:56.They are trying not to create any excuse that the Russians can stage
:04:57. > :05:01.an even larger incursion into Crimea or elsewhere, for that matter. They
:05:02. > :05:05.also seem to be trying to get international support. It should be
:05:06. > :05:07.said, this is a new Government. It has only been installed this week.
:05:08. > :05:13.They are trying to gain their footing. This is a major crisis.
:05:14. > :05:17.They have to count on the loyalty of the army they might have some
:05:18. > :05:21.resistance from solders from the eastern part of the country who are
:05:22. > :05:26.Russian speaking. They probably could count on Ukrainian speakers
:05:27. > :05:30.and people from the centre and west of the country as well as regular
:05:31. > :05:32.Ukrainians. A lot of people are ready to fight to defend Ukrainian
:05:33. > :05:39.Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin ready to fight to defend Ukrainian
:05:40. > :05:45.go next? They have Crimea to all intents and purposes. There's a weak
:05:46. > :05:48.Government in Kiev. Do they move to the eastern side of Ukraine which is
:05:49. > :05:54.largely Russian speaking and there's already been some unrest there?
:05:55. > :05:58.That's the big question, that's what everybody's really asking now. Where
:05:59. > :06:02.does this go from here? We've had some unrest in the eastern part of
:06:03. > :06:07.the country. There have been demonstrations and clashes. More
:06:08. > :06:14.ominously, there have been noises from the Kremlin they might actually
:06:15. > :06:18.move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in his conversation with Barack Obama
:06:19. > :06:22.said they might protect their interests there. It should be said,
:06:23. > :06:25.if they do expand, in fact, they've also said they are dead against the
:06:26. > :06:33.new Government seeing it as also said they are dead against the
:06:34. > :06:37.illegitimate and fascist. It does contain risks. They will have to
:06:38. > :06:42.deal with international reactions. America said there will be a deep
:06:43. > :06:45.reaction to this and it will affect Russia's relations with Ukraine and
:06:46. > :06:51.the international community. They have to deal with the reaction in
:06:52. > :06:56.Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians behind this new interim Government.
:06:57. > :07:04.Once Russia moves in, they will be seen as an invading force. It plays
:07:05. > :07:11.on historical feelings of Russia being an imperial force.
:07:12. > :07:15.Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits on the security Security and
:07:16. > :07:21.Intelligence Committee in the House of Commons. What should the western
:07:22. > :07:26.response be to these events? I can understand why William Hague is
:07:27. > :07:34.going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side by side whizz whoever's in charge.
:07:35. > :07:43.They need to CEOP sit numbers and also President Putin. The truth is
:07:44. > :07:49.we are all co significant fatries to the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20
:07:50. > :07:54.years ago which was designed to maintain the integrity of the
:07:55. > :07:59.Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to be a discussion along those lines.
:08:00. > :08:06.The difficulty is President Putin has watched events in recent months,
:08:07. > :08:08.in relation to Syria, it is palpable President Obama's focus of attention
:08:09. > :08:15.ask the other side of the Pacific President Obama's focus of attention
:08:16. > :08:20.in the House of Commons, I was very much against the idea of military
:08:21. > :08:25.action or providing weapons to the free Syrian army. My worry is,
:08:26. > :08:31.events proved this, the majority of the other options toed as sad are
:08:32. > :08:36.rather worse. It is clear now we are in a constitutional mess in this
:08:37. > :08:39.country. We cannot even contemplate military action without a
:08:40. > :08:44.parliamentary vote that moves against quick reaction that is
:08:45. > :08:48.required from the executive or, I suspect, there will be very little
:08:49. > :08:56.appetite for any military action from the West over in Ukraine. We
:08:57. > :09:01.are corn tours under the agreement of less than 20 years ago. We may be
:09:02. > :09:04.but we've guaranteed an agreement which it is clear we haven't the
:09:05. > :09:10.power to enforce. You wrote this morning, Britain is a diminished
:09:11. > :09:15.voice. Clams Iley navigating the Syrian conflict we relick wished
:09:16. > :09:21.decisions to the whims of parliamentary approval. That may or
:09:22. > :09:28.may not be but the Kremlin's not watching how we voted on the Syrian
:09:29. > :09:34.issue? In relation to Syria, it was where is the western resolve here.
:09:35. > :09:38.The truth ask Putin's position is considerably less strong. In
:09:39. > :09:44.diplomatic terms. He had a victory in Syria in relation to chemical
:09:45. > :09:52.weapons and in relation to the West's relationship with Iran. Putin
:09:53. > :09:57.is a vital inter locking figure. In demographic and economic terms,
:09:58. > :10:01.Russia's in very deep trouble. The oil price started to fall to any
:10:02. > :10:06.degree, oil and gas price, given the importance of mineral wealth and
:10:07. > :10:13.exports for the Russian economy, Putin would be in a lot of trouble.
:10:14. > :10:17.It requires an engagement from the EU and the EU are intending to look
:10:18. > :10:22.at their internal economic problems and will be smarting from the
:10:23. > :10:26.failure within a matter of hours of the deal they tried to broker only
:10:27. > :10:30.nine days' ago. You say if Mr Putin decides to
:10:31. > :10:35.increase the stakes and moves into the east, takes over the whole
:10:36. > :10:40.place, our Government, you say, will find itself with another colossal
:10:41. > :10:45.international headache. Some people watching this will be thinking,
:10:46. > :10:50.what's it got to do with us? It's a long way away from Britain. We
:10:51. > :10:56.haven't a dog in this fight? We have in this regard for the longer term
:10:57. > :11:00.here. I think if there were to be some military action in Ukraine, the
:11:01. > :11:04.sense of Russia taking over, it could have a major impact on the
:11:05. > :11:09.global economy in very quick order. You should not deny that. There will
:11:10. > :11:13.be move to have sanctions against Russia. The escalation of that will
:11:14. > :11:21.be difficult. The other fact is looking at our internal affairs and
:11:22. > :11:28.reform, partners, the Baltic states, Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic,
:11:29. > :11:33.they will be looking at a resurgent Russia now and think they'll need to
:11:34. > :11:38.hold as tightly as possible to the EU institutions and the power of
:11:39. > :11:43.Germany at the centre of that. This whole appetite for the reforms
:11:44. > :11:47.Germany at the centre of that. This politically and economically will be
:11:48. > :11:53.closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has
:11:54. > :12:02.longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you.
:12:03. > :12:06.We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is
:12:07. > :12:13.there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the
:12:14. > :12:18.moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been
:12:19. > :12:25.per performed by Russian forces. It is now a matter of coordinating a
:12:26. > :12:31.plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will
:12:32. > :12:35.our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to
:12:36. > :12:41.think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts
:12:42. > :12:44.energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the
:12:45. > :12:49.important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a
:12:50. > :12:54.different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign
:12:55. > :12:59.exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of
:13:00. > :13:04.money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast.
:13:05. > :13:09.There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea
:13:10. > :13:12.semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the
:13:13. > :13:17.reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does
:13:18. > :13:22.Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this
:13:23. > :13:29.carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of
:13:30. > :13:33.Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at
:13:34. > :13:37.a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the
:13:38. > :13:42.Ukrainian Government. Of course, so far, there hasn't been a coherent
:13:43. > :13:46.response. The really worrying thing about recent months, not just recent
:13:47. > :13:53.days, are the indications that the future of Ukraine as a unitary state
:13:54. > :14:00.is now in doubt. Look at it from the other side of the equation. The
:14:01. > :14:04.President when faced with demonstrations, many extremists, he
:14:05. > :14:09.was unable to deal with that. Now we have the other side, if you like,
:14:10. > :14:14.the Russian speakers, the other side of the fight, Russian nationalists
:14:15. > :14:22.showing they can get away with unilateral action more or less with
:14:23. > :14:26.impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have been sacked. I think there are
:14:27. > :14:34.considerable questions now as to whether Ukraine is falling apart
:14:35. > :14:36.and, if that happens, we're into a Yugoslav-type situation which will
:14:37. > :14:44.continue posing very serious questions for the EU and NATO for
:14:45. > :14:52.months or years to come. So, Janan, Ukraine is over? Where the west to
:14:53. > :14:58.concede to the Russian in Crimea, it would perversely be a net loss for
:14:59. > :15:03.Russia. You'd assume the rest of Ukraine would become an un
:15:04. > :15:13.unambiguously a member of the the EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a
:15:14. > :15:16.Russian dream of Eurasion dream, they will look at Putin's behaviour
:15:17. > :15:21.and is a, no, thanks, we'll head towards the EU. It is a short-term
:15:22. > :15:35.victory for Putin which backfires on his broader goals in Well, many
:15:36. > :15:41.people said if he grabs Crimea, he loses Ukraine, which is your point.
:15:42. > :15:46.We have seen violent demonstrations in the big eastern cities in Ukraine
:15:47. > :15:51.yesterday. People taking control of certain buildings. The risk is there
:15:52. > :15:55.of spreading beyond Crimea. I think the lack of any unified or visible
:15:56. > :15:59.response from Ukrainian armed forces... They allowed Russian
:16:00. > :16:03.troops to walk into the bases in Crimea. They have supposedly gone on
:16:04. > :16:07.red alert but they have done absolutely nothing. We don't see
:16:08. > :16:10.them deploying from barracks. There are serious questions about whether
:16:11. > :16:19.they would just fall apart. Putin is not going to let them split away. I
:16:20. > :16:23.would have thought he would like the entire Ukraine to come into the
:16:24. > :16:28.Russian ambit. Barack Obama is saying this will not stand. He has a
:16:29. > :16:33.90 minute conversation with Vladimir Putin and what is his response? I am
:16:34. > :16:40.suspending my cooperation in the run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is
:16:41. > :16:44.the EU doing? Nothing. There is nothing they can do and Putin knows
:16:45. > :16:50.there are a series of lines that he is able to cross and get away with
:16:51. > :16:55.it. Why should Berlin, London, Washington be surprised by the
:16:56. > :17:00.strength of Vladimir Putin's reaction? It was never going to let
:17:01. > :17:06.Ukraine just fall into the arms of the EU. That is the interesting
:17:07. > :17:09.point. And who does he listen to? Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela
:17:10. > :17:13.Merkel because she is the only person who can talk to him and I
:17:14. > :17:17.find that response worrying. We need to speak with a united voice but
:17:18. > :17:22.nobody knows what we should be saying. Military intervention is out
:17:23. > :17:26.for the West so we go to economic sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin
:17:27. > :17:33.just say, oh, you want sanctions? I have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it
:17:34. > :17:37.is move and countermove, and it is difficult to predict where it will
:17:38. > :17:42.end up. In all these meetings that are being held, they do think a step
:17:43. > :18:13.or two ahead and try and set out clear lines. Thank you for coming in
:18:14. > :18:16.this morning. Labour has been struggling since
:18:17. > :18:18.2010 to decide exactly how to take education secretary Michael Gove,
:18:19. > :18:20.one of the boldest reformers of the coalition and most divisive figures.
:18:21. > :18:22.Ed Miliband appointed TV historian Tristram Hunt and many thought
:18:23. > :18:25.Labour had found the man to teach Michael Gove a lesson. But how much
:18:26. > :18:27.do we really know about the party's plans for England's schools? Wales,
:18:28. > :18:30.Scotland and Northern Ireland are a devolved matter. Child has been back
:18:31. > :18:32.to school to find out. A politician once told me, do you know why
:18:33. > :18:34.education secretaries changed schools? Because they can. Michael
:18:35. > :18:37.Gove might dispute the motive but he is changing schools, like this one.
:18:38. > :18:39.The changes he is ringing in our encouraging them to be academies,
:18:40. > :18:41.free from local authorities to control their own budgets, ushering
:18:42. > :18:43.in free schools, focusing on toughening exams and making them the
:18:44. > :18:47.core of the curriculum with less coursework, and offering heads more
:18:48. > :18:53.discretion on tougher discipline. And he is in a hurry to put all this
:18:54. > :18:57.in place. But has that shut out any chance for a Labour Government to
:18:58. > :19:02.change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions?
:19:03. > :19:07.Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that
:19:08. > :19:11.would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010,
:19:12. > :19:14.Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning
:19:15. > :19:18.previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested
:19:19. > :19:22.teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government,
:19:23. > :19:26.allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to
:19:27. > :19:30.others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified
:19:31. > :19:41.teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked
:19:42. > :19:46.work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's
:19:47. > :19:50.education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some
:19:51. > :19:55.clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the
:19:56. > :19:58.feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the
:19:59. > :20:04.current Government on types of schools and the way education should
:20:05. > :20:09.proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different
:20:10. > :20:14.about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open
:20:15. > :20:19.and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are
:20:20. > :20:23.a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt
:20:24. > :20:27.as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge
:20:28. > :20:31.as to turn his back, shared agenda, agenda, which I think people will be
:20:32. > :20:36.really interested in. The art of Government, of course, is to balance
:20:37. > :20:40.competing pictures of policy, even inside your own party. It is fair to
:20:41. > :20:44.say that if Labour reflects and draws its own visions of a shared
:20:45. > :20:47.agenda, it might have to square that idea with teaching unions, who are
:20:48. > :20:53.already unhappy with the pace and tone of change that the Government
:20:54. > :20:57.had sketched out. What we sincerely hope is that if Labour were to form
:20:58. > :21:20.the next Government, that they would look at a serious review of
:21:21. > :21:23.accountability measures. That is really what ways on teachers every
:21:24. > :21:25.single day. Actually they would look at restoring the possibility, for
:21:26. > :21:27.example, of local councillors to be able to open schools. That seems
:21:28. > :21:30.eminently sensible. If they are not going to move back from the free
:21:31. > :21:32.schools and academies programme, at the very least they need to say that
:21:33. > :21:35.academy chains will be inspected because at the moment they are not.
:21:36. > :21:37.Labour have balls in the air on education and are still throwing
:21:38. > :21:40.around precise policy detail. There are areas that they could grab hold
:21:41. > :21:42.of and seize possession. A focus on the rounding of the people,
:21:43. > :21:44.developing character, the impact of digitalisation on the classroom.
:21:45. > :21:47.Also the role and handling of teachers in the system and the
:21:48. > :21:53.interdependence of schools. That is all still to play for. Currently I
:21:54. > :21:56.think the difference between the parties is that the coalition
:21:57. > :22:02.policies, while we do not agree with all of them, are clear and explicit,
:22:03. > :22:09.and Labour's policies are yet to be formulated in a way that everybody
:22:10. > :22:12.can understand clearly. I don't think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband
:22:13. > :22:19.will want to pick unnecessary fights before the election. I think we will
:22:20. > :22:24.have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness around the whole area of policy but
:22:25. > :22:31.after the election there will be grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But
:22:32. > :22:35.if fuzzy policy before the election is the lesson plan, it does rather
:22:36. > :22:39.risk interested voters being left in the dark.
:22:40. > :22:51.Tristram Hunt joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:22:52. > :22:57.Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael Gove's school reforms would you
:22:58. > :23:00.repeal? We are not interested in throwing a change for the sake of
:23:01. > :23:03.it. When I go round schools, teachers have been through very
:23:04. > :23:06.aggressive changes in the last three years, so when it comes to some of
:23:07. > :23:11.the curriculum reforms we have seen, we are not interested in changing
:23:12. > :23:15.those for the sake of it. Where we are interested in making change is
:23:16. > :23:19.having a focus on technical and vocational education, making sure
:23:20. > :23:24.that the forgotten 15% is properly addressed in our education system.
:23:25. > :23:27.What we saw in your package was an interesting description of how we
:23:28. > :23:32.have seen structural reforms in the names of schools. Academies, free
:23:33. > :23:35.schools, all the rest of it. International evidence is clear that
:23:36. > :23:38.it is the quality of leadership of the headteachers and the quality of
:23:39. > :23:42.teaching in the classroom that transforms the prospects of young
:23:43. > :23:46.people. Instead of tinkering around the names of schools, we focus on
:23:47. > :23:50.teacher quality. Viewers will be shocked to note that this Government
:23:51. > :24:05.approves of unqualified teachers in the classroom. We want to have fully
:24:06. > :24:08.qualified, passionate, motivated teachers in the classroom. It sounds
:24:09. > :24:10.like you might not repeal anything. You might build on it and you might
:24:11. > :24:13.go in a different direction, with more emphasis on technological
:24:14. > :24:15.education but no major repeal of the reforms of Michael Gove? I don't
:24:16. > :24:20.think you want to waste energy on undoing reforms. In certain
:24:21. > :24:25.situations they build on Labour Party policy. We introduced the
:24:26. > :24:28.sponsored academy programmes and we began the Teach First programmes,
:24:29. > :24:35.and we began the London challenge which transformed the educational
:24:36. > :24:39.prospects of children in London. We want to roll that out across the
:24:40. > :24:44.country. You have said there will be no more free schools, which Michael
:24:45. > :24:46.Gove introduced, but you will allow parents let academies, which just
:24:47. > :24:56.means free schools by a different name. No, because they will be in
:24:57. > :25:01.certain areas. We want to create new schools with parents. What we have
:25:02. > :25:04.at the moment is a destructive and market-driven approach to
:25:05. > :25:08.education. I was in Stroud on Thursday and plans for a big new
:25:09. > :25:13.school, in an area with surplus places, threatened to destroy the
:25:14. > :25:17.viability of local, rural schools. We want schools to work together in
:25:18. > :25:20.a network of partnership and challenge, rather than this
:25:21. > :25:46.destructive market-driven approach. You say that, but your version of
:25:47. > :25:49.free schools, I think, would only be allowed where there is a shortage of
:25:50. > :25:52.places. That means that where there is an excess of bad schools, parents
:25:53. > :25:55.will have no choice. They still have to send their kids to bad schools.
:25:56. > :25:57.And we have to transform bad schools and that was always the Labour way
:25:58. > :25:59.in Government. At the moment we just have an insertion of new schools.
:26:00. > :26:01.Schools currently underperforming are now underperforming even more.
:26:02. > :26:04.Children only have one chance at education. What about their time in
:26:05. > :26:06.school? Our focus is on the leadership of the headteacher and
:26:07. > :26:09.having quality teachers in the classroom. So they cannot set up new
:26:10. > :26:11.better schools and they have to go to the bad schools. Tony Blair said
:26:12. > :26:14.it should be easier for parents to set up new schools where they are
:26:15. > :26:18.dissatisfied with existing schools. You are not saying that. Even where
:26:19. > :26:21.they are dissatisfied with existing schools, they cannot set up free
:26:22. > :26:27.schools and you are reneging on that. We live in difficult economic
:26:28. > :26:32.circumstances where we have got to focus public finances on the areas
:26:33. > :26:38.of absolute need. We need 250,000 new school places. 150,000 in London
:26:39. > :26:46.alone. We have to focus on building new schools and where we have to put
:26:47. > :26:50.them. And secondly... Absolutely not. Focusing on those schools.
:26:51. > :26:54.Making sure we turned them around, just as we did in Government. We
:26:55. > :26:59.have had a remarkable degree of waste under the free school
:27:00. > :27:03.programme. If you think of the free school in Derby, the Academy in
:27:04. > :27:07.Bradford, and as we saw in the Telegraph on Friday, the free
:27:08. > :27:10.schools in Suffolk, a great deal of waste of public money on
:27:11. > :27:14.underperforming free schools. That is not the Labour way. We focus on
:27:15. > :27:19.making sure that kids in schools at the moment get the best possible
:27:20. > :27:25.education. Except that in your own backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of
:27:26. > :27:33.secondary school pupils attend a good or outstanding school. 148 out
:27:34. > :27:35.of 150 of the worst performing local authorities and it is
:27:36. > :27:40.Labour-controlled. Still terrible schools and yet you say parents
:27:41. > :27:44.should not have the freedom to start a better school. We have great
:27:45. > :27:48.schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well. We face challenges, just as
:27:49. > :27:53.Wolverhampton does and the Isle of Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like
:27:54. > :27:58.large parts of the country. What is the solution to that? Making sure we
:27:59. > :28:02.share excellence among the existing schools and making sure we have
:28:03. > :28:05.quality leadership in schools. Those schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all
:28:06. > :28:10.academies. It is not a question only of structure but of leadership. It
:28:11. > :28:13.is also a question of going back to the responsibility of parents to
:28:14. > :28:17.make sure their kids are school ready when they get to school. To
:28:18. > :28:52.make sure they are reading to their children in the evening. We can't
:28:53. > :28:54.put it all on teachers. Parents have responsibilities. I understand that
:28:55. > :28:57.but you have told me Labour's policy would not be to set up new schools
:28:58. > :28:59.which parents hope will be better. Parents continue to send their kids
:29:00. > :29:02.to bad schools in areas like Stoke. Labour has had plenty of time to
:29:03. > :29:04.sort out these schools in Stoke and they are still among the worst
:29:05. > :29:07.performing in the country. You are condemning these parents to having
:29:08. > :29:09.to send their kids to bad schools. Where we
:29:10. > :29:11.to send their kids to bad schools. of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that
:29:12. > :29:14.is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a
:29:15. > :29:16.successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on
:29:17. > :29:19.Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works
:29:20. > :29:21.is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing
:29:22. > :29:24.comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get
:29:25. > :29:25.into it. You can turn around schools with the right leadership,
:29:26. > :29:30.passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the
:29:31. > :29:36.learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour
:29:37. > :29:39.Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new
:29:40. > :29:41.school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the
:29:42. > :29:43.school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into
:29:44. > :29:45.it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and
:29:46. > :29:48.motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of
:29:49. > :29:51.their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids
:29:52. > :29:54.from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but
:29:55. > :29:57.only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right
:29:58. > :30:02.but only four got to the two leading universities.
:30:03. > :30:05.but only four got to the two leading people could leave school at 16 and
:30:06. > :30:08.walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel industry, the
:30:09. > :30:11.traditionally young people could leave school at 16 and walking two
:30:12. > :30:17.jobs in the potteries, the steel industry, the but also to get an
:30:18. > :30:24.apprenticeship at Jaguar Land Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why
:30:25. > :30:29.Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten 15%, which we have just not seen
:30:30. > :30:40.from this Government, focusing on technical and vocational pathways,
:30:41. > :30:56.is fundamental to Your headmaster was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good
:30:57. > :31:04.teacher? He He never taught me. Over 90% of teeners in the private
:31:05. > :31:07.sector are qualified. They look for not simply teachers with qualified
:31:08. > :31:11.teacher status. Teachers with MAs. Teachers who are improving them
:31:12. > :31:21.cephalitis. Becoming better educators.
:31:22. > :31:21.cephalitis. Becoming better teaching. You were taught by
:31:22. > :31:27.unqualified teachers. Your parents paid over ?15,000 a year for you
:31:28. > :31:31.being taught by unqualified teachers. Why did you make such a
:31:32. > :31:35.big deal of it? Because we've seen right around the world those
:31:36. > :31:42.education systems which focus on having the most qualified teachers
:31:43. > :31:45.perform the best. It cannot be right that anyone can simply turn
:31:46. > :31:50.perform the best. It cannot be right at the moment, have schools at
:31:51. > :31:55.veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want
:31:56. > :32:01.the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the
:32:02. > :32:07.passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments
:32:08. > :32:11.about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a
:32:12. > :32:17.great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from
:32:18. > :32:20.the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the
:32:21. > :32:42.headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school
:32:43. > :32:48.of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed
:32:49. > :32:53.unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely
:32:54. > :32:57.speak English. That is because if you have unqualified teachers you
:32:58. > :33:01.end up with a dangerous situation. The problem with that school was not
:33:02. > :33:08.unqualified teachers. People were running that school who were unfit
:33:09. > :33:11.to run a school. We have an issue about discipline and behaviour
:33:12. > :33:15.management in some of our schools. Some of the skills teachers gain
:33:16. > :33:20.through qualifications and learning is how to manage classes and get the
:33:21. > :33:24.best out of kids at every stage. It doesn't end with a qualified teacher
:33:25. > :33:29.status. That's just the beginning. We want our teachers to have
:33:30. > :33:35.continue it will development. It is not good enough to have your initial
:33:36. > :33:40.teacher trainingaged work through your career for 30 years. You need
:33:41. > :33:45.continual learning. Learning how to deal with digital technology.
:33:46. > :33:51.Refresh your subject knowledge. As an historian I help teachers. You've
:33:52. > :33:56.taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I
:33:57. > :34:02.give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't
:34:03. > :34:07.blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers?
:34:08. > :34:14.We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they
:34:15. > :34:17.are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge
:34:18. > :34:25.they should not be in the classroom. skills and deepening their knowledge
:34:26. > :34:29.If a free school or academy hired a teach thinking they are a great
:34:30. > :34:35.teacher but unqualified, if they are then forced by you to fire them,
:34:36. > :34:38.they will be in breach of the law. They are being urged by us to make
:34:39. > :34:43.sure they have qualified teacher status. We've lots of unqualified
:34:44. > :34:48.teachers as long as they are on the pathway to making sure they are
:34:49. > :34:52.qualified. But if they say they don't want to do this, will you fire
:34:53. > :34:56.them? It is not an unreasonable suggestion is that the teachers in
:34:57. > :35:00.charge of our young people have qualifications to teach and inspire
:35:01. > :35:06.our young people particularly when we face global competition from
:35:07. > :35:12.Shanghai, Korea and so on. The head teacher of Brighton college finds
:35:13. > :35:17.incredibly inspeechational teachers who don't' necessarily have a
:35:18. > :35:24.teaching qualifications. It is a different skill to teach ten young
:35:25. > :35:28.nice boys and girls in Brighton to teaches 20 or 30 quids with
:35:29. > :35:33.challenging circumstances, special educational needs, different
:35:34. > :35:37.ability. Being a teacher at Brighton college is an easy gig in comparison
:35:38. > :35:44.to other schools. Where we want teachers to have a capacity to teach
:35:45. > :35:52.properly. Do you think Tristram could ever lead the Labour Party? I
:35:53. > :35:56.think Ed is a great leader, the reforms yesterday were a real sign
:35:57. > :35:59.for his leadership. And the fact David Owen, the man with a
:36:00. > :36:05.pre-history with our party is back with us. It is great. Even Gideon
:36:06. > :36:13.had to change his name to George. Have you thought of switching to
:36:14. > :36:18.Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony! Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot.
:36:19. > :36:23.I love the Labour because it accepts everybody from me to Len McCluskey.
:36:24. > :36:27.We are a big, broad happy family on our way to Government. Thank you
:36:28. > :36:32.very much. You're watching The Sunday Politics.
:36:33. > :36:38.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for Sunday
:36:39. > :36:47.politics Scotland. In over 20 minutes I'll look
:36:48. > :36:54.Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales: A UK Government minister makes the
:36:55. > :36:59.case for welfare cuts. We've also asked Welsh voters what they think.
:37:00. > :37:04.And how well will UKIP perform in the European elections in May? We
:37:05. > :37:07.hear from their lead candidate. But first, I'm joined by Kirsty
:37:08. > :37:11.Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats. Tomorrow, the UK
:37:12. > :37:16.Government's Silk Commission is expected to recommend more powers
:37:17. > :37:19.for the Assembly. For Lib Dems, the commission is a key part of their
:37:20. > :37:24.coalition deal with the Conservatives. But has that
:37:25. > :37:34.coalition cost them votes? Opinion polls suggest so. Christie, welcome
:37:35. > :37:39.to the programme. A BBC Wales opinion poll this week with support
:37:40. > :37:44.for your party at 9%. That is down 11 points on the 2010 general
:37:45. > :37:49.election. Was this coalition really worth it? Yes, I think it is. It is
:37:50. > :37:53.worth it not just because of the commission, which I am sure will
:37:54. > :37:58.talk about later, but because of the month we have been able to achieve,
:37:59. > :38:04.as Liberal Democrats, our number one commitment to ensure that nobody
:38:05. > :38:09.paid any income tax on the. That has seen tens of thousands of Wills
:38:10. > :38:14.workers but lifted out of tax altogether. What accounts for your
:38:15. > :38:21.support was off the cliff? -- of Wills workers. I think her policies
:38:22. > :38:25.are the right ones. Whether it is creating 1 million jobs across the
:38:26. > :38:30.UK... We have seen employment rising in Wills. Whether it is a fairer
:38:31. > :38:32.deal for our poorest paid or pensioners. These are things that
:38:33. > :38:37.would not have happened without the Liberal Democrats. And I am talking
:38:38. > :38:40.to people on the doorsteps, there is an understanding that the Lib Dems
:38:41. > :38:44.have played their part in ensuring that those things that have happened
:38:45. > :38:49.and in censoring a Conservative party that would have gone off to
:38:50. > :38:54.the right is not for our presence. Widely not want to vote for you? I
:38:55. > :38:56.think there is a growing understanding of what these global
:38:57. > :39:01.Democrats have achieved. -- widely not want. They recognise the role we
:39:02. > :39:05.have played in bringing the economy back to a state where the economy is
:39:06. > :39:11.beginning to grow, where we have more jobs in Wales and more people
:39:12. > :39:14.in work, as where as a fairer taxation system which benefit Wales
:39:15. > :39:18.hugely. Also a fair deal for orchestras. What do people say about
:39:19. > :39:24.welfare cuts? We will be looking at that and Paul later on. -- we will
:39:25. > :39:27.be looking at that in our survey. You want a farewell tour system that
:39:28. > :39:32.takes care of people who have lost their job. -- a fairer welfare
:39:33. > :39:37.system that takes care of people. They also want one that is fairer
:39:38. > :39:42.and one that does not trap people in the welfare system. We have seen in
:39:43. > :39:46.Wales generations of families that have been trapped in the welfare
:39:47. > :39:50.system that because of the way it is structured, it is nigh on impossible
:39:51. > :39:54.for them to take the risk of taking on work and getting out of the
:39:55. > :39:57.system because work will not pay for them. What people want is a fairer
:39:58. > :40:03.system that looks after people that needs help and enables people, where
:40:04. > :40:07.variable, to get back into the workplace when they are able. Of
:40:08. > :40:11.people like what you're doing, I am confused why the opinion polls are
:40:12. > :40:15.so bad. With a European election around the corner, realistically,
:40:16. > :40:21.what is the outlook for the Lib Dems at the European elections? Will be
:40:22. > :40:26.campaigning across Wales, like I did yesterday, giving people a positive
:40:27. > :40:31.message about why Wales benefits from being in Europe. We are the
:40:32. > :40:36.only UK National party that has that clear message. We are not divided
:40:37. > :40:40.like the other parties about Europe. We want to be in Europe, he with
:40:41. > :40:45.reforms, but in. It is vital for the Welsh economy, Welsh jobs, the Welsh
:40:46. > :40:51.rural economy that supports the agricultural industry and
:40:52. > :40:55.developments in rural Wales. It is a positive message about protecting
:40:56. > :41:00.those jobs by being in Europe. Let's talk about one of the confidence of
:41:01. > :41:02.the Coalition, as you would see. The Silk Commission we understand will
:41:03. > :41:08.call for further devolution tomorrow. Including over the police.
:41:09. > :41:11.Are you pleased by that? We will wait to see what the Silk Commission
:41:12. > :41:14.comes up with tomorrow. Welsh Liberal Democrats have always argued
:41:15. > :41:22.for greater powers to come to the Welsh government. A big move for
:41:23. > :41:26.them to be in charge of the police, is it not? I would welcome that very
:41:27. > :41:32.much indeed and that alongside policy that is already devolved.
:41:33. > :41:34.Such as domestic violence. The Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly
:41:35. > :41:39.already have a role in keeping communities safe. The Welsh
:41:40. > :41:45.Government, for instance, does contribute to the employment of PC
:41:46. > :41:50.SOus, which help keep streets safe. It seems a very logical that we
:41:51. > :41:53.should have the least of all and therefore policing varieties can
:41:54. > :41:59.reflect the people of Wales. We will have to wait to see what silk says
:42:00. > :42:03.tomorrow. It may be logical but is the Assembly up to the job with 60
:42:04. > :42:09.AMus? Is that enough to take on more powers over the police? There is an
:42:10. > :42:12.argument to be had about the right number of Assembly Members but do
:42:13. > :42:17.not think they'd do talk about Assembly Members in isolation. We
:42:18. > :42:19.need to look at how all of the Government of Wills works and
:42:20. > :42:26.whether we have the right for politicians at the right level? Have
:42:27. > :42:34.we? Have got too many MPs? What is your opinion? I think that it is
:42:35. > :42:39.inevitable that if we move additional things to the Assembly
:42:40. > :42:43.then we need to decrease the amount we send to Westminster -- the amount
:42:44. > :42:48.of MPs and have more in the Assembly. The Welsh public will have
:42:49. > :42:52.to be convinced of that and that it should not cost the public any more.
:42:53. > :42:56.Public might be confused by this constant talk of referendums and
:42:57. > :43:02.more powers coming down to Cardiff Bay. Yet we have the same number of
:43:03. > :43:07.MPs in Westminster. They are giving up power. How many MPs and how many
:43:08. > :43:12.AMus do we need? Let's put a figure on it. The number will flow from the
:43:13. > :43:17.possibilities of Parliament and of the Assembly. What I think we are
:43:18. > :43:20.absolutely clear on is that the Welsh public would like to see as
:43:21. > :43:22.move towards a more permanent settlement, where we are not
:43:23. > :43:28.constantly having these commissions to try to adjust it. I hope that
:43:29. > :43:32.what Silk will come up with tomorrow is a very definite plan of how we
:43:33. > :43:35.can move to a more sustainable and stable devolution settlement so that
:43:36. > :43:40.we do not keep having to have these conversations. Once that is clear,
:43:41. > :43:44.about what the responsibilities will be of the Assembly as what the
:43:45. > :43:47.responsibility will be of Welsh MPs in Parliament, then we can have a
:43:48. > :43:52.discussion about what is the right number of politicians you need for
:43:53. > :43:56.those jobs. It cannot be a system that costs the Welsh taxpayer more
:43:57. > :44:02.than it currently does however. Are you sure you are taking the public
:44:03. > :44:05.with you? Our poll found that 23% of people now want to abolish the
:44:06. > :44:12.Assembly. That is a minority but it it is a minority that is completely
:44:13. > :44:15.this franchise. What your poll also showed was that there was a majority
:44:16. > :44:20.of people in Wales in favour of extra powers coming to the National
:44:21. > :44:25.Assembly. I think I agree with the analysis of Roger Scully. There has
:44:26. > :44:29.been a hardening of the position of those people that want to see the
:44:30. > :44:32.Assembly abolished. I suspect a lot of that is to do with frustration at
:44:33. > :44:37.the performance of the Welsh Government. It is always a challenge
:44:38. > :44:39.to be able to get through to the Welsh people the differentiation
:44:40. > :44:43.between the Assembly itself on the performance of the Welsh Government.
:44:44. > :44:48.That with negligible or services, the NHS. This week, you will be
:44:49. > :44:54.calling for legislation to introduce a minimum number grey seal of nurses
:44:55. > :45:03.to patients in hospital wards. -- minimum ratio. Let's be absolutely
:45:04. > :45:06.clear. We know that there is a direct link between the number of
:45:07. > :45:12.registered nurses that work on a hospital ward and the outcome for
:45:13. > :45:18.patients. We also know that in Wales at the moment our nurses in our
:45:19. > :45:20.hospitals are looking after mosque patients -- more patience than their
:45:21. > :45:26.counterparts in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. The answer is
:45:27. > :45:28.surely to spend more. What we need to do is ensure that we have
:45:29. > :45:34.adequate numbers of staff or hospital wards. We need to ensure
:45:35. > :45:37.good outcomes for patients and to ensure that our nurses are able to
:45:38. > :45:39.carry out the care that they have been trained to do. We know that the
:45:40. > :45:42.chief nursing officer for Wales been trained to do. We know that the
:45:43. > :45:45.already publishes guidance to local health boards on the number of
:45:46. > :45:49.nurses that there should be. Very often, local health boards do not
:45:50. > :45:53.actually avoid those nurses on words. I want to ensure that Welsh
:45:54. > :45:59.patients have access to the quality care that I'm now Welsh nurses are
:46:00. > :46:03.capable of delivering and want to deliver but often are not able to
:46:04. > :46:08.deliver because people at the board level, who are looking to save
:46:09. > :46:13.money, look to nurse numbers first rather than ensuring that those
:46:14. > :46:17.posts are projected. We have seen some very, very shocking stories
:46:18. > :46:21.about the Health Service. Not just in Wells, across the UK. It is the
:46:22. > :46:25.ways we can put confidence back into the Health Service in Wales is by
:46:26. > :46:30.ensuring that we have a legal requirement about the number of
:46:31. > :46:31.nurses and patients that they are looking after. Thank you very much,
:46:32. > :46:36.Kirsty. We will watch the progress Kirsty. We will watch the progress
:46:37. > :46:39.Welsh political conference season is about to start. Over the next few
:46:40. > :46:42.weeks, we'll hear from Plaid Cymru, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and
:46:43. > :46:45.the Conservatives ahead of the European elections. And at those
:46:46. > :46:49.elections, all eyes will be on the UK Independence Party to see how
:46:50. > :46:52.well they perform. UKIP aren't having a Welsh conference but their
:46:53. > :46:58.members were in Torquay on Friday to hear from the party's lead European
:46:59. > :47:07.candidate for Wales. He spoke to our reporter James Williams.
:47:08. > :47:11.That lead candidate is Nathan Deal. Thank you very much for joining us.
:47:12. > :47:18.Your ambition is to talk the poll in Wales. It is no mean feat but we
:47:19. > :47:23.have every possibility of doing it. Our membership has grown
:47:24. > :47:26.phenomenally in Wales. The number of branches that we have has
:47:27. > :47:29.quadrupled. The supporter getting on the streets will be to people with
:47:30. > :47:36.action days, we are knocking on doors, it is fantastic. People know
:47:37. > :47:43.that this election is all about the European Union and membership of
:47:44. > :47:46.it, who governs Britain and unlimited open door and aggression.
:47:47. > :47:50.People have had enough and want to see a change. They went to see
:47:51. > :47:55.written taking back our sovereignty. -- they want to see. Is immigration
:47:56. > :47:59.such a big issue in Wales? Surprisingly it is. I was the
:48:00. > :48:02.candidate in the by-election in Anglesey and we made it one of the
:48:03. > :48:07.issues that we spoke about judging that election. I was Axel surprised
:48:08. > :48:12.myself just how impassioned people felt about immigration. -- I was
:48:13. > :48:16.actually surprised. It is nothing to do with immigration the racism race.
:48:17. > :48:20.It is that we have limited school and hospital places.
:48:21. > :48:24.It is that we have limited school our doors, slim them open and allow
:48:25. > :48:29.anybody to come here. What kind of a sovereign government do we have to
:48:30. > :48:32.say that they have set targets for immigration knowing that there is no
:48:33. > :48:38.point leaving the front door wide open and closing the back door? How
:48:39. > :48:41.much of a story is UKIP in Wales? It has been setting the agenda in
:48:42. > :48:45.England but you have not made the mark that perhaps has been made in
:48:46. > :48:49.England. You are right there. We feel that we need to get people
:48:50. > :48:54.elected to Westminster. As soon as this election is over, we will focus
:48:55. > :48:59.and target everything we have to cave in Westminster seats. We also
:49:00. > :49:04.know that it is crucial to get people elected to the Welsh
:49:05. > :49:07.Assembly. -- to get Westminster seats. Opinion poll after opinion
:49:08. > :49:11.poll has shown that we are very likely to get 5amus elected. That is
:49:12. > :49:18.going to go us the ability to show the people of Wales what a potential
:49:19. > :49:22.UK government could do it well. We are not career politicians. We are
:49:23. > :49:28.not people who have gone to university and taught how to get
:49:29. > :49:32.slick responses to journalists. We are just people who believe in what
:49:33. > :49:35.we are saying and we want to see our nation and country a better place.
:49:36. > :49:42.With regards to this election in May, no obvious ambition is to get
:49:43. > :49:45.to the European union and withdraw. More than half of the people in
:49:46. > :49:50.Wales in our poll this week say they want to stay. That figure does what
:49:51. > :49:58.rate up and down. Up and down, the actual debate has not be gone about
:49:59. > :50:02.leaving. We have not been given the platform and ability to inform the
:50:03. > :50:08.electorate about the realities of EU membership. When that debate has
:50:09. > :50:11.given, we are very confident that the people of Wales will choose to
:50:12. > :50:13.leave the EU. -- when that debate is given.
:50:14. > :50:16.Politicians all want to get the long-term unemployed back to work.
:50:17. > :50:20.But that's where the consensus ends on welfare reform. The UK coalition
:50:21. > :50:26.government is pushing ahead with radical changes to the system.
:50:27. > :50:31.There's been vocal criticism from the Welsh government. We want to
:50:32. > :50:35.know what you think on benefit cuts. We'll have the results of our poll
:50:36. > :50:38.in a few minutes. But first, Tomos Livingstone recently went to Bargoed
:50:39. > :50:41.in the South Wales valleys with a UK minister who says the welfare system
:50:42. > :50:52.must change to help balance the books.
:50:53. > :50:55.The facade may have stayed the same but inside, this Baptist Chapel in
:50:56. > :51:00.Bargoed has been totally transformed. It now houses the town
:51:01. > :51:04.library and acts as a one-stop shop for the local community. The
:51:05. > :51:09.faithful still have space to worship on a lower floor. One scheme run
:51:10. > :51:13.from here helps those who are out of work to look for jobs. For many
:51:14. > :51:20.local people, the services provided here are a It could very well be the
:51:21. > :51:28.only community facility that is available in that particular
:51:29. > :51:31.location. It is a safe facility that people can access at any time of
:51:32. > :51:36.their life, really. So everybody is welcome and everybody feels that
:51:37. > :51:41.they, particularly within this community, and the building
:51:42. > :51:43.themselves. The process of transforming welfare policy itself
:51:44. > :51:50.is proving just as an script. -- just as intricate. With 2000 people
:51:51. > :51:55.everybody agrees the problem is complicated. How you see the answer
:51:56. > :51:59.depends on your political colouring. It is no secret that the Welsh
:52:00. > :52:03.Government and UK Government do not often sing from the same sheet. It
:52:04. > :52:06.is difficult to think of an area where the differences are so stark
:52:07. > :52:13.as welfare reform. The UK's message is clear, this is an opportunity to
:52:14. > :52:18.get people off benefits and into work. The Welsh Government is
:52:19. > :52:21.equally adamant that it will hit Wales disproportionately large.
:52:22. > :52:27.Those reforms include replacing a series of existing benefits with one
:52:28. > :52:31.Universal Credit. A challenge for government IT systems, if nothing
:52:32. > :52:35.else. UK ministers have also started a controversial process of
:52:36. > :52:39.reassessing people on sickness benefits to see if they are fit for
:52:40. > :52:42.work. Stephen Crabb, the Wales office minister, says
:52:43. > :52:47.work. Stephen Crabb, the Wales reform, if not more, from the rest
:52:48. > :52:50.of the UK. The tragedy we have is that even though the statistics at
:52:51. > :52:54.the moment are telling us that good things are happening, that a record
:52:55. > :53:03.number of people in Wales are working and a lake record -- a
:53:04. > :53:10.record low number of people who are in it -- enacted, there are many
:53:11. > :53:16.people who have never worked. There are 92,000 children in Wales growing
:53:17. > :53:21.up in a house where nobody works. We need to change that. It is a
:53:22. > :53:24.personal issue for the MP, who has his own experience of the way they
:53:25. > :53:29.welfare system works. I had the privilege of growing up in a home
:53:30. > :53:35.seeing a woman, my mother, who was raising three boys on her own in
:53:36. > :53:38.council housing making that turning from being totally reliant on
:53:39. > :53:44.benefits and generosity, building up her hours by getting small jobs in a
:53:45. > :53:49.local office, building up her skills and her benefits were being reduced
:53:50. > :53:52.as she was increasing her working hours but determined to get new
:53:53. > :53:56.skills, build up her confidence and make that journey through to
:53:57. > :54:03.full-time employment. Not everybody sees it like that. Labour say Mr
:54:04. > :54:07.Grabb and his colleagues are not addressing the long-term problems.
:54:08. > :54:12.It is very important that people are getting into quality implement, not
:54:13. > :54:16.low wage, part ten, zero our work on which is increasingly happening.
:54:17. > :54:20.There is nothing fair about welfare reform which introduces a bedroom
:54:21. > :54:29.tax and which introduces Universal Credit in a venue have Dwayne. A
:54:30. > :54:31.system where people must access various entitlement through the
:54:32. > :54:36.Internet where many people do not have access to it. Welfare policy is
:54:37. > :54:38.not the fault but that has not stopped Welsh Government ministers
:54:39. > :54:44.describing the reforms as a social atrocity. They insist people in
:54:45. > :54:47.Wales are worse off as a result. Whichever way the arguments stack
:54:48. > :54:53.up, it is likely that welfare reform will remain a hot political topic as
:54:54. > :54:59.the general election draws nearer. That is our correspondent reporting
:55:00. > :55:04.on his recent trip to Bargoed. We will stay with welfare and this
:55:05. > :55:09.year's recent survey conducted for BBC Wales.
:55:10. > :55:11.We asked or welfare benefits, which of the following best reflect your
:55:12. > :55:41.view... Joining me now is our political
:55:42. > :55:47.editor Nick Servini. Neck, the Tories say these welfare reforms are
:55:48. > :55:52.popular. Our poll seems to suggest that they are right. It is something
:55:53. > :55:56.that we have heard a lot of and to some extent, Dan, maybe an
:55:57. > :56:00.assumption that they are popular in some of more affluent constituencies
:56:01. > :56:08.in England. The big question is how popular they are in Wales. I think
:56:09. > :56:10.it will be a central part of the general election campaign. As you
:56:11. > :56:15.say, the results of the survey suggest that roughly two thirds of
:56:16. > :56:18.people are either happy with what the Government is doing, the UK
:56:19. > :56:23.government, or believe it should go further. We have had a raft of
:56:24. > :56:30.stories from charities, to the Catholic Church, warning that those
:56:31. > :56:35.two are most vulnerable in society are being hit too hard. Underpinned,
:56:36. > :56:39.as Thomas said, by a very strong message from the Labour Welsh
:56:40. > :56:45.Government. Comments from, for example, the education minister,
:56:46. > :56:49.saying that it is destabilising, damaging and having a devastating
:56:50. > :56:53.impact. Not so long ago, I was at a community centre and Iain Duncan
:56:54. > :56:57.Smith, the architect of many of these welfare changes... From him,
:56:58. > :57:03.you get an almost evangelical delay that morally, they have the duty to
:57:04. > :57:12.lift people out of welfare reform. Together with the which personal
:57:13. > :57:15.message from Steve Crabb, I get a sense that they are willing to have
:57:16. > :57:19.this battle on wheels. It be interesting to see how that pans
:57:20. > :57:24.out. I have been getting another perspective. -- battle in Wales. I
:57:25. > :57:30.caught up with somebody at Cardiff University earlier in the week. We
:57:31. > :57:33.are seeing, in fact, not just among conservative reporters but even
:57:34. > :57:38.among supporters of the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru, quite a lot of
:57:39. > :57:46.endorsement for policies on welfare benefits and even some people
:57:47. > :57:50.suggesting that cutbacks or measures against those claiming benefits
:57:51. > :57:53.should be taken further. That is possibly rather surprising for many
:57:54. > :58:00.people but that is a message that comes through very clearly. This is
:58:01. > :58:02.not just about Conservative supporting government policy Liberal
:58:03. > :58:09.Democrats, it is actually pretty high levels of support across both.
:58:10. > :58:15.Let's talk about the Silk Commission's second report. We
:58:16. > :58:20.gathered will recommend that policing should be devolved. What
:58:21. > :58:22.are the arguments? For those who favour devolution of policing, Dan,
:58:23. > :58:29.and we have already heard some of them being laid out, on a day level,
:58:30. > :58:32.what they say is that policemen and women right across Wales,
:58:33. > :58:37.particularly in the realms of community safety, dealing with
:58:38. > :58:42.alcohol and drug problems and domestic violence, they work
:58:43. > :58:45.primarily with devolved agencies and local authorities already so the
:58:46. > :58:50.argument will be that it makes sense to devolve policing as well and as a
:58:51. > :58:54.result you can have a more coordinated approach. On the flip
:58:55. > :58:57.side, one of the strongest argument is that this is the thin end of the
:58:58. > :59:03.wedge. Certainly the argument that we will hear the most. The police is
:59:04. > :59:07.the front end of a huge structure, which is the criminal Justice
:59:08. > :59:11.network. Going from the Crown Prosecution Service to the courts,
:59:12. > :59:16.prisons and ultimately criminal law in Wales. We will have voices like
:59:17. > :59:23.Christopher Sammon, who we heard this morning, the Crown Police
:59:24. > :59:28.Commissioner. Saying that the assertion of Cardiff has another
:59:29. > :59:34.administrative level and this will add complexity and cost. -- the
:59:35. > :59:37.insertion of Cardiff as another administrative level.
:59:38. > :59:41.IQ for joining me. I hope you can join the next week. We'll be back
:59:42. > :59:43.Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to
:59:44. > :59:56.you. This week grant Shap said he wanted
:59:57. > :00:02.to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach
:00:03. > :00:06.out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they
:00:07. > :00:14.should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and
:00:15. > :00:23.two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos.
:00:24. > :00:29.Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on
:00:30. > :00:34.with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol
:00:35. > :00:39.must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for
:00:40. > :00:46.our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social
:00:47. > :00:50.mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents.
:00:51. > :00:56.I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only
:00:57. > :01:02.party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and
:01:03. > :01:05.minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too
:01:06. > :01:10.little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the
:01:11. > :01:17.elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The
:01:18. > :01:21.republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious
:01:22. > :01:25.blue. Our would be deepest red. same idea. Theirs is a suspicious
:01:26. > :01:31.love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs Thatcher called it the dead parrot
:01:32. > :01:35.when we launched it. We won the Eastbourne by-election off the
:01:36. > :01:40.Tories very soon aftered with. Perhaps it feels like we're in a
:01:41. > :01:45.coalition cage but we're escaping that soon. Why does it fly to the
:01:46. > :01:52.right? Most Liberal Democrats would want it to fly to the left. I hope
:01:53. > :01:57.it will soon. Interesting there. Let's stick with
:01:58. > :02:03.the Robert Hall pin one. He was being serious. The others were fun.
:02:04. > :02:09.It is interesting that talking about appealing to the blue collared vote,
:02:10. > :02:14.the upper working class, lower middle class, curiously now neither
:02:15. > :02:17.Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great cut through with these people.
:02:18. > :02:24.Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great in wanting to be the Workers Party,
:02:25. > :02:30.how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four
:02:31. > :02:35.next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance
:02:36. > :02:39.tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned
:02:40. > :02:44.income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers
:02:45. > :02:51.never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the
:02:52. > :02:54.thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm
:02:55. > :03:00.beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research,
:03:01. > :03:05.there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views.
:03:06. > :03:11.They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can
:03:12. > :03:17.we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different
:03:18. > :03:22.pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will
:03:23. > :03:27.mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher
:03:28. > :03:31.called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have
:03:32. > :03:36.strivers in the people who run your party so you know what we've been
:03:37. > :03:41.through, the struggles we've had. How many of the six drawing up the
:03:42. > :03:46.manifesto have had ever a mortgage. The one who's not an old Etonian
:03:47. > :03:51.went to St Paul's. He's a day schoolboy! It is interesting and it
:03:52. > :03:57.was funny you mentioned an elephant. Don't think of an elephant as the
:03:58. > :04:01.title of that book. Calling it the Workers Party draws attention to the
:04:02. > :04:06.Tories biggest electoral weakness. The idea they are a class apart. Out
:04:07. > :04:11.of touch. I think it is interesting, they have identified their elections
:04:12. > :04:19.are won or lost by this particular demo graphic of the C 1, and C 2.
:04:20. > :04:24.Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed load, Tony Blair got them. His
:04:25. > :04:30.failure in 2010 is the reason David Cameron didn't win an overall
:04:31. > :04:35.majority. I'm disappointed with the ladder. You should have a hammer or
:04:36. > :04:40.sickle! The Conservatives have a terrible brand problem. You heard
:04:41. > :04:43.them explaining why they did badly in the Wythenshawe by-election,
:04:44. > :04:48.saying there's quite a large council estate there In 1961, I think the
:04:49. > :04:54.Conservatives won a by-election back then, they were getting through to
:04:55. > :04:56.those sort of voters. There is not a single Conservative councillor in
:04:57. > :05:03.Manchester. They have this terrible problem. You're right for them to
:05:04. > :05:09.pick up on the five Etonians writing their manifesto. David Cameron sir
:05:10. > :05:17.rounding himself with his own. He doesn't have to do that. I seas
:05:18. > :05:25.things like isn't Robert Halpen great. He decides and has his own.
:05:26. > :05:29.He has some more slightly common people from St Paul's! One of the
:05:30. > :05:34.ways the Conservatives hoped to broaden their appeal is the tougher
:05:35. > :05:40.line on immigration. We learned net immigration is rising substantially.
:05:41. > :05:46.Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric. In
:05:47. > :05:56.scores of our cities and market towns, this country, in a short
:05:57. > :06:02.space of time, has become N'Zonzi rkable whether it is --
:06:03. > :06:08.unrecognisable. Whether it is the impact on local schools and
:06:09. > :06:12.hospitals. In many parts of England you don't hear English spoken, this
:06:13. > :06:17.is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and
:06:18. > :06:24.grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments.
:06:25. > :06:31.Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road.
:06:32. > :06:36.Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,
:06:37. > :06:41.nobody knows what he's saying shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,
:06:42. > :06:51.of the time. You can handle the letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond
:06:52. > :06:58.does not make his case on Scotland for the Scottish. Let's put aside
:06:59. > :07:05.whether the policy's right or wrong. How bad, by the Tories own lights,
:07:06. > :07:12.is the fact the net figure for immigration went up 60,000? It looks
:07:13. > :07:17.really bad. If I was a Tory strategist, I'd be philosophical
:07:18. > :07:21.about it. Immigration, even if they were meeting the target, I don't
:07:22. > :07:26.think the public would believe it. It is like crime a few years ago,
:07:27. > :07:31.the crime rates had been declining for the best part of 20 years but
:07:32. > :07:37.the fear of crime remains high. There's such a degree of cynicism
:07:38. > :07:41.that regardless of your administrative record in Government,
:07:42. > :07:46.the public will remain hostile to you. This is where Nigel Farage can
:07:47. > :07:51.be potent. He said it is not about numbers. It is about community. It
:07:52. > :07:57.is about people seeing their communities change. And in the
:07:58. > :08:02.Sunday Telegraph, it was said this isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty
:08:03. > :08:06.bone for a bull terrier. The problem for the Government on these figures
:08:07. > :08:11.is we know why the net migration figures are not looking good. They
:08:12. > :08:16.got down the non-EU figures but the EU figures are going up. From Italy
:08:17. > :08:22.and Spain as their economies tanked, people came here. If he hadn't made
:08:23. > :08:26.such a big deal of the numbers, the Tories, I mean, you could present
:08:27. > :08:30.this as a huge success story. If you believe immigration was good for the
:08:31. > :08:34.country. You would say it doesn't matter what Labour says, the best
:08:35. > :08:38.and the brightest young people from all over Europe are voting with
:08:39. > :08:43.their feet to come to Britain. But you never hear that case being made
:08:44. > :08:46.and certainly not by Labour. They acknowledge although immigration is
:08:47. > :08:51.best in the abstract for the economy, people don't feel it in
:08:52. > :08:54.their daily lives. There's a huge vacuum for the case where
:08:55. > :09:00.immigration should be in our public life. I remember a time when the
:09:01. > :09:05.economy was in such decline there was a rush to the door in the
:09:06. > :09:08.sixties and seventies. Now we are claiming our economy's doing better
:09:09. > :09:11.than any of the other major economies bar Germany, people want
:09:12. > :09:16.to join in our success. London was a economies bar Germany, people want
:09:17. > :09:23.declining city until the mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be
:09:24. > :09:28.honest. She was proposing a cap on immigration. Not going to happen.
:09:29. > :09:33.Today she is saying maybe people from poorer member states cannot
:09:34. > :09:38.come in until their economies grow. That's future accession states.
:09:39. > :09:42.That's Turkey in ten years' time It is causing divisions with the
:09:43. > :09:47.coalition. She's bashing Vince Cable. You often see Liberal
:09:48. > :09:51.Democrats bashing the Tories. You don't often see a Tory minister bash
:09:52. > :09:55.Vince Cable. She does on the immigration figures. He thought they
:09:56. > :10:00.were good news. Last week, Vince responded to the news by saying it
:10:01. > :10:04.was a policy he was happy for the gift to flunk. The problem was going
:10:05. > :10:08.for a cap. There are six moving parts. UK citizens leaving, coming
:10:09. > :10:14.for a cap. There are six moving back. EU citizens leaving and coming
:10:15. > :10:21.back and then third party nationals. And students coming to study. Of
:10:22. > :10:30.course. You only have control over the EU citizens. Have you to clamp
:10:31. > :10:35.down on ace strayian, Chinese or American graduates. They should have
:10:36. > :10:43.gone for the Australian points system. I don't have a pure cap on
:10:44. > :10:50.numbers just background etc. Tim Farran said in the European election
:10:51. > :10:53.either vogue Liberal Democrat or UKIP. He turned that to his
:10:54. > :10:59.advantage. It is hopeful but he's come up with a way to spin this.
:11:00. > :11:09.Labour has his special conference. Was it or was it not an event? Not
:11:10. > :11:14.sure it was the biggest moment in the party since 1918. But things
:11:15. > :11:20.fell apart in the special conference in 1981. 2004 got another special
:11:21. > :11:24.conference. Who's on board? David Owen who founded the gang of four.
:11:25. > :11:28.He's not joined but he's given them money. He's not going to sit with
:11:29. > :11:35.them in the Lord's. He's given money. They lost the gang of four.
:11:36. > :11:41.Back comes David Owen. Not historic? Why would he want it to be more
:11:42. > :11:45.significant than it was. There's a tendency to see him taking the fight
:11:46. > :11:51.to his party. Why would he want that? The fact it has not pleased
:11:52. > :12:03.Grant Shapps is not a test to see whether this has worked. It has been
:12:04. > :12:09.described as an historic moment and incremental of what John did. The
:12:10. > :12:17.trade union block voters disappeared a long time ago. They still have 50%
:12:18. > :12:22.of the vote. But 2,000 of union members voting for this guy has
:12:23. > :12:27.gone. It is a reform from 20 years ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed
:12:28. > :12:33.Miliband's stored up trouble. Len McCluskey wants a million new homes
:12:34. > :12:37.and answered to the benefit caps is not reconcilable with the deficit
:12:38. > :12:41.reduction strategy. In five years' time if there is a Labour Government
:12:42. > :12:47.it becomes very difficult. We should keep an eye on it? Always. Labour
:12:48. > :12:53.Party process is never ending. Unlike this programme. That's all
:12:54. > :12:57.from us today. Continuing reports of events in the Ukraine on the BBC
:12:58. > :13:03.News Channel. There's no Daily Politics tomorrow because of cover
:13:04. > :13:08.Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial service at Westminster Abbey on BBC
:13:09. > :13:14.Two live. We'll be back on the Daily Politics on Tuesday at midday. We'll
:13:15. > :13:19.be back here next week with the Work and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith.
:13:20. > :13:37.If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.