:00:33. > :00:37.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:38. > :00:43.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:44. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:47. > :00:48.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:49. > :00:58.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:59. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:00. > :01:09.Later in the programme, Sian James commentators.
:01:10. > :01:13.Later in the programme, Sian James is standing down as an MP but not
:01:14. > :01:15.ruling out being an AM and David Jones says David Cameron was right
:01:16. > :01:17.to call Offa's Dyke Jones says David Cameron was right
:01:18. > :01:20.newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not
:01:21. > :01:25.impartial about informing people of local services.
:01:26. > :01:29.So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next
:01:30. > :01:31.thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections.
:01:32. > :01:34.Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives
:01:35. > :01:37.in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of
:01:38. > :01:40.MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and
:01:41. > :01:51.Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.
:01:52. > :01:53.In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the
:01:54. > :02:03.elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.
:02:04. > :02:06.And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick
:02:07. > :02:12.reminder of what all the fuss is about.
:02:13. > :02:16.The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on
:02:17. > :02:21.Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in
:02:22. > :02:21.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73
:02:22. > :02:26.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the
:02:27. > :02:33.vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are
:02:34. > :02:37.751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The
:02:38. > :02:42.European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners
:02:43. > :02:48.and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and
:02:49. > :02:51.the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price
:02:52. > :03:01.caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food
:03:02. > :03:05.regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.
:03:06. > :03:09.Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our
:03:10. > :03:15.relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have
:03:16. > :03:18.a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out
:03:19. > :03:22.referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.
:03:23. > :03:27.Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative
:03:28. > :03:32.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,
:03:33. > :03:39.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.
:03:40. > :03:43.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,
:03:44. > :03:46.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,
:03:47. > :03:50.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing
:03:51. > :03:54.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian
:03:55. > :03:59.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting
:04:00. > :04:05.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal
:04:06. > :04:10.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:11. > :04:15.Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are
:04:16. > :04:20.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.
:04:21. > :04:25.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to
:04:26. > :04:29.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that
:04:30. > :04:33.bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,
:04:34. > :04:37.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's
:04:38. > :04:43.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put
:04:44. > :04:51.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick
:04:52. > :04:55.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an
:04:56. > :04:57.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project
:04:58. > :05:02.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old
:05:03. > :05:10.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people
:05:11. > :05:15.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed
:05:16. > :05:21.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.
:05:22. > :05:24.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.
:05:25. > :05:30.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the
:05:31. > :05:33.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock
:05:34. > :05:38.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We
:05:39. > :05:45.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain
:05:46. > :05:47.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power
:05:48. > :05:55.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain
:05:56. > :05:58.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.
:05:59. > :06:01.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an
:06:02. > :06:09.example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.
:06:10. > :06:12.Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip
:06:13. > :06:17.to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think
:06:18. > :06:22.of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European
:06:23. > :06:25.Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David
:06:26. > :06:31.Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,
:06:32. > :06:38.he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside
:06:39. > :06:42.him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I
:06:43. > :06:50.gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our
:06:51. > :06:53.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to
:06:54. > :06:59.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a
:07:00. > :07:02.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:03. > :07:07.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:08. > :07:13.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:14. > :07:17.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:18. > :07:22.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:23. > :07:25.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:26. > :07:28.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:29. > :07:36.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:37. > :07:41.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:42. > :07:45.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not
:07:46. > :07:52.changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to
:07:53. > :07:59.perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a
:08:00. > :08:04.say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was
:08:05. > :08:09.deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.
:08:10. > :08:14.Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why
:08:15. > :08:20.can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First
:08:21. > :08:26.of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no
:08:27. > :08:30.apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of
:08:31. > :08:34.Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and
:08:35. > :08:37.business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they
:08:38. > :08:40.probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees
:08:41. > :08:44.in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is
:08:45. > :08:49.necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron
:08:50. > :08:57.says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity
:08:58. > :09:01.rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out
:09:02. > :09:06.vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there
:09:07. > :09:11.was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of
:09:12. > :09:15.reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent
:09:16. > :09:20.about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them
:09:21. > :09:22.forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic
:09:23. > :09:30.backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable
:09:31. > :09:34.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed
:09:35. > :09:41.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:42. > :09:44.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:45. > :09:53.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:54. > :09:58.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:09:59. > :10:02.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:03. > :10:06.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:07. > :10:13.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:14. > :10:17.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:18. > :10:21.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:22. > :10:25.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:26. > :10:29.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:30. > :10:37.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:38. > :10:40.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:41. > :10:45.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:46. > :10:48.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:49. > :10:54.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:55. > :11:02.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:03. > :11:07.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:08. > :11:12.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it
:11:13. > :11:16.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.
:11:17. > :11:21.We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,
:11:22. > :11:27.our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we
:11:28. > :11:31.not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to
:11:32. > :11:34.immigration. We have been open to people across the world for
:11:35. > :11:39.centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to
:11:40. > :11:43.pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are
:11:44. > :11:47.three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,
:11:48. > :11:51.and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,
:11:52. > :11:55.and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that
:11:56. > :11:58.only this week the office for National said that they did not
:11:59. > :12:03.collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra
:12:04. > :12:07.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size
:12:08. > :12:13.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over
:12:14. > :12:19.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I
:12:20. > :12:25.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In
:12:26. > :12:31.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the
:12:32. > :12:34.EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have
:12:35. > :12:39.to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute
:12:40. > :12:45.positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I
:12:46. > :12:49.will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David
:12:50. > :12:51.Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they
:12:52. > :12:56.really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of
:12:57. > :13:02.thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see
:13:03. > :13:05.now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control
:13:06. > :13:10.and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And
:13:11. > :13:15.that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would
:13:16. > :13:19.leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of
:13:20. > :13:26.Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are
:13:27. > :13:39.you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here
:13:40. > :13:43.today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and
:13:44. > :13:53.work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are
:13:54. > :13:55.wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with
:13:56. > :13:59.countries with similar living standards to us. France, the
:14:00. > :14:03.Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to
:14:04. > :14:16.join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of
:14:17. > :14:20.which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of
:14:21. > :14:23.free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm
:14:24. > :14:31.saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million
:14:32. > :14:34.British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right
:14:35. > :14:38.to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.
:14:39. > :14:42.You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants
:14:43. > :14:45.have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than
:14:46. > :14:52.they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses
:14:53. > :14:57.were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim
:14:58. > :15:03.benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that
:15:04. > :15:11.they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for
:15:12. > :15:15.more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A
:15:16. > :15:22.spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and
:15:23. > :15:27.Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party
:15:28. > :15:31.that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept
:15:32. > :15:36.it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU
:15:37. > :15:40.states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the
:15:41. > :15:43.Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration
:15:44. > :15:49.was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over
:15:50. > :15:55.again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,
:15:56. > :16:00.Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2
:16:01. > :16:06.million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you
:16:07. > :16:12.didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The
:16:13. > :16:17.Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is
:16:18. > :16:22.trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't
:16:23. > :16:27.count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for
:16:28. > :16:32.people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the
:16:33. > :16:38.habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't
:16:39. > :16:41.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the
:16:42. > :16:46.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say
:16:47. > :16:49.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and
:16:50. > :16:53.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They
:16:54. > :16:57.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality
:16:58. > :17:01.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.
:17:02. > :17:07.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big
:17:08. > :17:16.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool
:17:17. > :17:23.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to
:17:24. > :17:26.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think
:17:27. > :17:31.Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their
:17:32. > :17:38.backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might
:17:39. > :17:42.not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often
:17:43. > :17:46.come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it
:17:47. > :17:52.represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative
:17:53. > :17:55.Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it
:17:56. > :17:59.character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther
:18:00. > :18:03.and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics
:18:04. > :18:09.between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk
:18:10. > :18:12.time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have
:18:13. > :18:15.trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade
:18:16. > :18:20.deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United
:18:21. > :18:24.States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in
:18:25. > :18:28.favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a
:18:29. > :18:33.moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We
:18:34. > :18:37.have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants
:18:38. > :18:42.coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.
:18:43. > :18:50.How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.
:18:51. > :18:54.Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout
:18:55. > :18:58.in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs
:18:59. > :19:03.spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we
:19:04. > :19:07.undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we
:19:08. > :19:12.speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the
:19:13. > :19:17.Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening
:19:18. > :19:20.peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come
:19:21. > :19:28.together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With
:19:29. > :19:31.Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the
:19:32. > :19:36.sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling
:19:37. > :19:40.Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour
:19:41. > :19:44.doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows
:19:45. > :19:47.someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening
:19:48. > :19:51.peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they
:19:52. > :19:57.admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how
:19:58. > :20:01.Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We
:20:02. > :20:09.don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage
:20:10. > :20:12.said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies
:20:13. > :20:18.Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly
:20:19. > :20:23.but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while
:20:24. > :20:27.carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin
:20:28. > :20:31.over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire
:20:32. > :20:36.what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy
:20:37. > :20:41.is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,
:20:42. > :20:47.and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to
:20:48. > :20:53.keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign
:20:54. > :20:58.Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this
:20:59. > :21:02.issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that
:21:03. > :21:07.Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless
:21:08. > :21:12.foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very
:21:13. > :21:20.important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention
:21:21. > :21:25.in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.
:21:26. > :21:32.Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign
:21:33. > :21:38.up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP
:21:39. > :21:43.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was
:21:44. > :21:50.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal
:21:51. > :21:55.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:56. > :22:00.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:22:01. > :22:05.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:06. > :22:10.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:11. > :22:14.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:15. > :22:21.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:22. > :22:24.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:25. > :22:30.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:31. > :22:35.that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:36. > :22:40.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:41. > :22:42.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European
:22:43. > :22:49.Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have
:22:50. > :22:52."deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal
:22:53. > :22:57.Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is
:22:58. > :23:01.mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we
:23:02. > :23:05.must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an
:23:06. > :23:09.awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We
:23:10. > :23:14.don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role
:23:15. > :23:18.for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.
:23:19. > :23:24.You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of
:23:25. > :23:30.dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common
:23:31. > :23:34.quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so
:23:35. > :23:38.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a
:23:39. > :23:42.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those
:23:43. > :23:45.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the
:23:46. > :23:51.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since
:23:52. > :23:55.the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to
:23:56. > :23:59.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on
:24:00. > :24:02.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries
:24:03. > :24:07.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to
:24:08. > :24:12.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the
:24:13. > :24:16.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,
:24:17. > :24:22.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse
:24:23. > :24:26.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers
:24:27. > :24:29.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign
:24:30. > :24:36.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:37. > :24:40.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:41. > :24:44.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:45. > :24:48.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:49. > :24:51.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:52. > :24:55.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:56. > :25:00.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:25:01. > :25:05.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:06. > :25:10.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:11. > :25:16.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:17. > :25:19.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:20. > :25:24.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:25. > :25:29.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?
:25:30. > :25:32.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:33. > :25:35.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:36. > :25:39.work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our
:25:40. > :25:45.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:46. > :25:50.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:51. > :25:57.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:25:58. > :26:04.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The
:26:05. > :26:09.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:10. > :26:13.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have
:26:14. > :26:18.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but
:26:19. > :26:23.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to
:26:24. > :26:29.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies
:26:30. > :26:35.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any
:26:36. > :26:41.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We
:26:42. > :26:46.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups
:26:47. > :26:50.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.
:26:51. > :26:55.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.
:26:56. > :26:59.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we
:27:00. > :27:05.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:06. > :27:08.attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn
:27:09. > :27:12.up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,
:27:13. > :27:17.UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they
:27:18. > :27:22.didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party
:27:23. > :27:26.decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP
:27:27. > :27:32.representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me
:27:33. > :27:39.saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are
:27:40. > :27:43.quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord
:27:44. > :27:49.and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't
:27:50. > :27:54.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:27:55. > :27:59.jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back
:28:00. > :28:03.?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about
:28:04. > :28:07.getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a
:28:08. > :28:12.secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do
:28:13. > :28:17.wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People
:28:18. > :28:21.who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and
:28:22. > :28:26.that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the
:28:27. > :28:29.allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up
:28:30. > :28:33.when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of
:28:34. > :28:39.using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We
:28:40. > :28:44.were the first British political party to have independent audits of
:28:45. > :28:50.our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.
:28:51. > :28:53.The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the
:28:54. > :28:58.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my
:28:59. > :29:01.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been
:29:02. > :29:05.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot
:29:06. > :29:11.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We
:29:12. > :29:15.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking
:29:16. > :29:21.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people
:29:22. > :29:25.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We
:29:26. > :29:29.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a
:29:30. > :29:34.Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say
:29:35. > :29:40.they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have
:29:41. > :29:46.burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.
:29:47. > :29:52.Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's
:29:53. > :29:58.financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the
:29:59. > :30:04.financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that
:30:05. > :30:08.all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at
:30:09. > :30:11.the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge
:30:12. > :30:16.of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get
:30:17. > :30:19.enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal
:30:20. > :30:24.Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George
:30:25. > :30:28.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is
:30:29. > :30:33.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do
:30:34. > :30:37.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will
:30:38. > :30:42.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about
:30:43. > :30:47.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5
:30:48. > :30:52.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.
:30:53. > :30:56.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to
:30:57. > :31:00.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our
:31:01. > :31:03.money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led
:31:04. > :31:07.Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to
:31:08. > :31:16.have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...
:31:17. > :31:24.Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He
:31:25. > :31:28.is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to
:31:29. > :31:31.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want
:31:32. > :31:35.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party
:31:36. > :31:41.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour
:31:42. > :31:48.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the
:31:49. > :31:53.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice
:31:54. > :31:57.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the
:31:58. > :32:05.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,
:32:06. > :32:09.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the
:32:10. > :32:14.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has
:32:15. > :32:17.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It
:32:18. > :32:20.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about
:32:21. > :32:25.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner
:32:26. > :32:29.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common
:32:30. > :32:34.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make
:32:35. > :32:41.Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and
:32:42. > :32:46.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more
:32:47. > :32:51.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?
:32:52. > :32:56.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional
:32:57. > :33:01.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe
:33:02. > :33:07.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We
:33:08. > :33:13.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the
:33:14. > :33:16.EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on
:33:17. > :33:21.that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because
:33:22. > :33:29.the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In
:33:30. > :33:37.some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not
:33:38. > :33:40.sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is
:33:41. > :33:47.a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on
:33:48. > :33:52.the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want
:33:53. > :33:57.to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in
:33:58. > :34:00.national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big
:34:01. > :34:08.challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a
:34:09. > :34:14.good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did
:34:15. > :34:17.not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a
:34:18. > :34:23.success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,
:34:24. > :34:30.the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are
:34:31. > :34:34.not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not
:34:35. > :34:38.on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the
:34:39. > :34:42.future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners
:34:43. > :34:47.with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd
:34:48. > :34:52.tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be
:34:53. > :34:58.stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the
:34:59. > :35:02.Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our
:35:03. > :35:06.enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the
:35:07. > :35:10.economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest
:35:11. > :35:15.exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and
:35:16. > :35:21.services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you
:35:22. > :35:25.something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day
:35:26. > :35:31.after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody
:35:32. > :35:35.from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about
:35:36. > :35:39.goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have
:35:40. > :35:46.to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let
:35:47. > :35:54.me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not
:35:55. > :35:57.looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get
:35:58. > :36:07.anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your
:36:08. > :36:10.irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the
:36:11. > :36:13.reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve
:36:14. > :36:17.anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the
:36:18. > :36:20.doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a
:36:21. > :36:24.sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not
:36:25. > :36:29.pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we
:36:30. > :36:33.could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we
:36:34. > :36:38.would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But
:36:39. > :36:44.overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not
:36:45. > :36:48.sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform
:36:49. > :36:53.but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.
:36:54. > :37:00.Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking
:37:01. > :37:08.outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an
:37:09. > :37:13.inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are
:37:14. > :37:19.putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to
:37:20. > :37:22.have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I
:37:23. > :37:27.think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg
:37:28. > :37:30.will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.
:37:31. > :37:33.It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:37:34. > :37:36.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:37:37. > :37:44.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:45. > :37:49.Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales - the Welsh Secretary David
:37:50. > :37:52.Jones on the Prime Minister's attack of the Welsh Government over the
:37:53. > :37:56.health service. What's the latest on local government re-organisation?
:37:57. > :38:00.What does the future hold for the Swansea East MP Sian James? And who
:38:01. > :38:03.should pay the legal bill of former Shadow Welsh Secretary Nigel Evans
:38:04. > :38:09.after he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week?
:38:10. > :38:17.But first, the Welsh Spring conference season drew to a close
:38:18. > :38:19.yesterday. After Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Welsh
:38:20. > :38:24.Labour, it's been the Welsh Conservatives' turn. In what one
:38:25. > :38:27.senior member of the party said was an "aggressive strategy", there was
:38:28. > :38:30.a concerted attack on the record of the Welsh Government, particularly
:38:31. > :38:33.in health, which went further than ever before. The Prime Minister
:38:34. > :38:36.weighed in, as did the Health Secretary for England, Jeremy Hunt,
:38:37. > :38:40.and the leader of the party in Wales, Andrew RT Davies. I've been
:38:41. > :38:44.speaking to the Welsh Secretary, David Jones, and I began by asking
:38:45. > :38:48.him if the Prime Minister was right to call Offa's Dyke the line between
:38:49. > :38:52.life and death. This seemed to be a clear indication that you're more
:38:53. > :39:00.likely to die in an Welsh hospital than an English one. The clear
:39:01. > :39:03.indication is there are concerns about the NHS is delivered in Wales
:39:04. > :39:07.but that is not just the prime minister saying that. Of course, we
:39:08. > :39:13.had the report from the Royal Oak job surgeons last year -- College of
:39:14. > :39:19.surgeons last year. They were concerned about the waiting list.
:39:20. > :39:27.The prime minister put it in rhetorical terms. Very stark terms.
:39:28. > :39:32.But it has attracted your attention. Nevertheless, professionals are
:39:33. > :39:35.expressing the sort of concerned that the Prime Minister expressed in
:39:36. > :39:42.his speech and he was right to do it. If you take a sentence like
:39:43. > :39:49.that, the critics will say that this is too broad based. Everyone gets
:39:50. > :39:56.caught up in it. If you were to take a sentence like that, the impression
:39:57. > :40:01.would be, do not come to Wales. Do not invest your money in Wales.
:40:02. > :40:07.Analyse what he said. He said there is a diverging is between health
:40:08. > :40:10.care in England and in Wales. And that of course is actually
:40:11. > :40:14.substantiated by people such as the Royal College of surgeons whose
:40:15. > :40:17.opinion we have to have respect for. It is entirely right for the Prime
:40:18. > :40:21.Minister to draw attention to this which he did not only in this speech
:40:22. > :40:26.but has done repeatedly in primaries discussed is over the last few
:40:27. > :40:28.weeks. We should talk about the Nuffield Trust report, an
:40:29. > :40:34.independent report looking at the state of the different health
:40:35. > :40:39.services across the United Kingdom. One of the main conclusions it came
:40:40. > :40:43.to was that actually there is not a huge amount of difference between
:40:44. > :40:49.the NHS in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It did not say
:40:50. > :40:52.that at all. It said they had not in much change. But that also implies
:40:53. > :40:58.that the Welsh NHS is not catching up with the rest of the country.
:40:59. > :41:02.There is little sign that one country is moving ahead of the
:41:03. > :41:05.others, consistently, across the available indicators of performance.
:41:06. > :41:10.That does not fit into the narrative. What it also said and it
:41:11. > :41:13.said quite starkly was that if you need a hip replacement or a knee
:41:14. > :41:17.replacement and you are in Wales, you will wait on average for 170
:41:18. > :41:22.days. If you need the same operation in England, you will wait for only
:41:23. > :41:27.70 days. This actually reflects what we as members of Parliament get
:41:28. > :41:34.consistently from Aachen city once. We are paying, say our constituents,
:41:35. > :41:37.the same rates of tax and National Insurance as everybody else so why
:41:38. > :41:42.are we having to wait longer for operations that we need? It is an
:41:43. > :41:46.elective surgery certainly where this is most stark. You have to
:41:47. > :41:50.remember that in parts of Wales such as this in Llangollen where we are
:41:51. > :41:55.now that there is an increasing and greater reliance upon services that
:41:56. > :41:59.are delivered across the border. If you need heart care, you would go to
:42:00. > :42:04.Liverpool. If you need a hip replacement, you would probably go
:42:05. > :42:11.just down the road. It is quite wrong that the same people... The
:42:12. > :42:14.same hospitals are delivering differential waiting lists to
:42:15. > :42:19.patients from England and Wales. And that is in daily substantiated by
:42:20. > :42:24.the Nuffield trust report. -- entirely substantiated. If you talk
:42:25. > :42:29.to constituents, you will see that this is an increasing concern. In
:42:30. > :42:35.terms of the relationship, the cross-border relationship, in the
:42:36. > :42:41.NHS, we are told on the vast majority of cases it is a
:42:42. > :42:49.relationship which works well. Not so. Would there be a danger... We
:42:50. > :42:51.know that Carwyn Jones has written to Downing Street saying the
:42:52. > :42:55.political knock-about is all well and good but this is going beyond
:42:56. > :43:00.the pale because it is the stabilising the NHS? This rhetoric
:43:01. > :43:07.could damage the working relationship of the NHS. Absolutely
:43:08. > :43:10.not. For the first time in the UK media are focusing attention on
:43:11. > :43:15.Carwyn Jones is poor delivery of health in Wales. And I repeat, if
:43:16. > :43:19.you think that there is a good working relationship between the NHS
:43:20. > :43:25.in Wales and the NHS in England when if you are a Welsh patient you wait
:43:26. > :43:29.over twice as long for the same operation, you have a pretty odd
:43:30. > :43:34.idea of what is a good working relationship. In terms of the staff
:43:35. > :43:38.of the NHS, do you think that the risk is that they will be tomorrow
:43:39. > :43:41.raised with this constant criticism from the Prime Minister and
:43:42. > :43:47.yourself? I do not think they would at all. We have been at pains to say
:43:48. > :43:51.that the NHS staff in Wales are as competent, hard-working and
:43:52. > :43:56.dedicated as those anywhere else. It is not the stuff that we are
:43:57. > :44:00.criticising. It is the incompetent oversight of the NHS by the Labour
:44:01. > :44:05.Party in Cardiff will stop and that of course is what Carwyn Jones is
:44:06. > :44:09.objecting to. He does not like the fact that all of a sudden, the
:44:10. > :44:13.national spotlight is on Labour 's failure on the NHS in Wales. You
:44:14. > :44:19.have addressed the conference as well. One of the things that I
:44:20. > :44:22.wanted to pick upon as well was the row over who will pay for the
:44:23. > :44:27.ratification of the South Wales valleys. There is an element of
:44:28. > :44:33.repetition as well here. We have had senior ministers saying one thing
:44:34. > :44:38.and the Welsh Government saying another. How long have we got to
:44:39. > :44:40.resolve this dispute? We have not got very long. Network rail will
:44:41. > :44:46.need to know the positions or that they can do the work that they
:44:47. > :44:52.thought was going to take place. Weeks? Absolutely. The Blissett --
:44:53. > :44:57.the position is extremely clear. There was an exchange of
:44:58. > :45:02.correspondence from the Transport Secretary at the time and Carl
:45:03. > :45:09.Sargeant, the Welsh Transport Minister at the time. It made it
:45:10. > :45:14.clear. That was subsequently substantiated by the independent
:45:15. > :45:17.Office of Rail Regulation who have confirmed minutes of a meeting in
:45:18. > :45:21.which it was said that the Welsh Government will pay for the work. We
:45:22. > :45:26.in Westminster were astounded when all of a sudden the First Minister
:45:27. > :45:30.started to suggest that we were going to pay for all the work. That
:45:31. > :45:34.was never agreed. He knows it was never agreed. And interestingly,
:45:35. > :45:37.there was a meeting earlier this week that I attended with Italy win
:45:38. > :45:44.a hardware she made no mention of that suggestion. -- Edwina Hart. My
:45:45. > :45:46.concern is I think the Welsh Government have revisited the
:45:47. > :45:50.costings and they are concerned they cannot afford it. What I have been
:45:51. > :45:55.suggesting for some considerable time is that if they cannot afford
:45:56. > :46:00.it, come back and talk to London and try and find some way around it. And
:46:01. > :46:06.that is why I was glad to see Edwina Hart there. That is what she is
:46:07. > :46:11.trying to do. I think they have dropped that contention now. He told
:46:12. > :46:15.me in an interview with him six months ago. That was a
:46:16. > :46:18.straightforward trial. You have seen me correspondence because I have
:46:19. > :46:21.shown it to you. You know that there was an exchange of correspondence
:46:22. > :46:28.which confirmed the basis of that electrification. You had the meeting
:46:29. > :46:31.last week. Where will it go now? We are looking at further options for
:46:32. > :46:37.paying for the cost of ratification but it would have been so much
:46:38. > :46:41.easier instead of this nonsensical suggestion that the Welsh Government
:46:42. > :46:45.had said weeks ago that they think they have a problem with the
:46:46. > :46:54.funding. -- electrification. That is the way in -- a mature government
:46:55. > :46:58.should behave. I want to ask you about Nigel Evans, the former shadow
:46:59. > :47:04.Secretary of State for Wales, from Swansea, of course. He has been
:47:05. > :47:08.cleared in the court case. Does he have a critical future? Let me say
:47:09. > :47:11.that I have a huge amount of sympathy for Nigel and what I can
:47:12. > :47:16.only imagine is the anguish he has gone through. It has been a very
:47:17. > :47:20.difficult time for him. I know Nigel well and I know he's a good man. I
:47:21. > :47:24.certainly would like to see a critical future for Nigel. Nigel
:47:25. > :47:28.will be having discussions with the party after parliament returns after
:47:29. > :47:32.the recess and I personally very much hope that there will be a
:47:33. > :47:34.future for him. He is a good parliamentarian and he understands
:47:35. > :47:40.Parliament and I think Parliament would be richer for him continuing
:47:41. > :47:45.to work there. David Jones, thank you very much indeed. The body
:47:46. > :47:50.representing Welsh councils is calling for clarity on proposals to
:47:51. > :47:55.merge local authorities. In January, a commission set up by the Welsh
:47:56. > :47:58.Government recommended cutting the number of councils in Wales by
:47:59. > :48:01.around a half. But despite calling for action by Easter, there has been
:48:02. > :48:08.no agreement amongst the belittle parties. The Welshman -- Welsh local
:48:09. > :48:11.government Association says the uncertainty is potentially damaging
:48:12. > :48:14.for councils. It was always come to be a tough deadline to meet,
:48:15. > :48:19.agreement within three months on a plan to merge councils. There has
:48:20. > :48:21.been plenty of talking up the assembly but there is little doubt
:48:22. > :48:26.that the East attempt -- Easter deadline recommended will pass
:48:27. > :48:30.without significant steps forward. The commission published its report
:48:31. > :48:33.on the future of Welsh public services in January. The headline
:48:34. > :48:42.recommendation was a reduction in the number of cancels from 22 --
:48:43. > :48:47.councils from 22 to viewer. Without agreement between the parties in
:48:48. > :48:52.Cardiff Bay, it is clear that the process will not straightforward.
:48:53. > :48:58.Now the First Minister says he wants consensus by the summer. But
:48:59. > :49:05.deciding how many councils there should be and which one should merge
:49:06. > :49:08.will not be easy. What he wants is a Labour Party map. This is what
:49:09. > :49:12.happened with the last reorganisation of local government.
:49:13. > :49:16.And we cannot be put in a position where we have been asked to sign up
:49:17. > :49:20.to something which is agreed within the Labour Party which happens to
:49:21. > :49:24.suit the Labour Party. We can all agree that the status quo is not an
:49:25. > :49:27.option. But if we want to have a settled view on the future of local
:49:28. > :49:34.government then there has to be discussions about that between the
:49:35. > :49:37.political parties and not just the Labour Party deciding what is best
:49:38. > :49:40.for itself. The government is due to set out its position on the
:49:41. > :49:45.commission recommendations before the summer. And while it is
:49:46. > :49:50.important, it says, to move swiftly, it is essential to take the time
:49:51. > :49:53.necessary to get it right. It states that ongoing cross-party discussions
:49:54. > :49:58.are an important part of the process. And it says it is important
:49:59. > :50:04.a new council map is agreed as soon as possible. When there are jobs
:50:05. > :50:08.involved, councillors at stake that might lose seats, it is a different
:50:09. > :50:13.kettle of fish to move from the theory to the practical and
:50:14. > :50:17.practical politics is what it is about. And of course, Carwyn Jones
:50:18. > :50:21.is First Minister has got to deliver this. But he has to deliver it to a
:50:22. > :50:27.party when most of his activists are involved in local government. Change
:50:28. > :50:30.is not going to be easy to attain. Councils say they are waiting for a
:50:31. > :50:34.lead from the Welsh Government. Will the commission report gathered dust?
:50:35. > :50:39.That is up to Cardiff Bay politicians, they say. But
:50:40. > :50:43.uncertainty is damaging. It seems to me we are in a position where the
:50:44. > :50:47.Williams proposals are essentially contested by the little parties
:50:48. > :50:51.across Wales. They are contested within local government and that
:50:52. > :50:56.inevitably has slowed things down. Going back to the Easter deadline,
:50:57. > :51:01.it does look very optimistic, with hindsight. That said, I think we now
:51:02. > :51:07.need a very clear timescale for how the report is grown to be commended.
:51:08. > :51:10.We cannot... We have all these employees and we cannot have the
:51:11. > :51:15.sort of Damocles hanging over them for the next five or six years. The
:51:16. > :51:18.Easter deadline may have been optimistic that one of the members
:51:19. > :51:21.of the commission told me he is disappointed that the momentum built
:51:22. > :51:26.up when the report came out seems to have been lost. But the commission
:51:27. > :51:32.has done its work and now the focus is on the politicians. The First
:51:33. > :51:36.Minister says acting on the Williams commission recommendations is a test
:51:37. > :51:40.of his government. But reaching on changes -- agreement on changes are
:51:41. > :51:45.clear -- appeared to be as elusive as the Easter Bunny. Several weeks
:51:46. > :51:47.ago, the Swansea East MP Sian James announced she'd be leaving
:51:48. > :51:51.Westminster at the next General Election. You might think that the
:51:52. > :51:54.Labour MP was tired of politics but that isn't the case. She's been
:51:55. > :51:58.telling our reporter Bethan James that she isn't ruling out entering
:51:59. > :52:02.the world of politics again - though not at Westminster but at Cardiff
:52:03. > :52:09.Bay. Sian James one -- one the Swansea
:52:10. > :52:14.seat in 2005. She previously worked for Welsh women's aid but her
:52:15. > :52:17.interest in politics began when she began -- became involved in the
:52:18. > :52:20.miners' strike. When I met up with that in Westminster, she told me she
:52:21. > :52:26.was leaving Parliament but not bowing out of policy-making. I am
:52:27. > :52:29.very interested in the justice system and social justice. And I
:52:30. > :52:32.think there is ever so much happening and changing in Wales at
:52:33. > :52:38.the moment. There are great opportunities. We have a mature in
:52:39. > :52:42.democracy. We have the assembly. And I am very excited about what is
:52:43. > :52:50.happening around that. And as more powers were devolved to Cardiff Bay,
:52:51. > :52:54.I think there will be opportunities and gaps, in a way, where maybe if I
:52:55. > :53:01.took of those issues in Westminster, you could affect some change really,
:53:02. > :53:06.the delivery of Edward the then fulfilled by my colleagues down in
:53:07. > :53:12.Cardiff Bay. But I see a role, and opportunity. She says she has taken
:53:13. > :53:17.great pride that agree on new legislation on sunbeds and helping
:53:18. > :53:24.plant workers in that pensions campaign. But her heart has always
:53:25. > :53:27.been in Wales. I knew I was never going to be the sort of MP who could
:53:28. > :53:33.base myself in London and live here in London and then visit the
:53:34. > :53:38.constituency. It had to be the other way round for me. It had to be
:53:39. > :53:42.centred in the constituency and London would be the travel. And I
:53:43. > :53:46.always knew I would have to travel and I have travelled with other
:53:47. > :53:51.jobs. But I think I am ready now to be based nearer home, nearer my
:53:52. > :53:56.family and to be affecting change is really within my direct community.
:53:57. > :54:01.What about being a woman in Westminster? Do you feel it is
:54:02. > :54:07.harder? What has frustrated me about Westminster and I have said this is
:54:08. > :54:12.it is a little bit like quartz and Harry Potter. You come here and it
:54:13. > :54:19.has its own rhythm, its own pattern, nothing is done
:54:20. > :54:24.spontaneously. When you are sitting at home on your sofa, and you are
:54:25. > :54:28.shouting at the TV and you're saying, when I get to
:54:29. > :54:33.Westminster... When you get here, you discover that everything has a
:54:34. > :54:39.pattern. And that pattern has been established over centuries. I think
:54:40. > :54:52.if you are the sort of person who wants to get things done, it can be
:54:53. > :54:57.quite frustrating. You have to find a way around it. You have to find
:54:58. > :55:01.your way around whether you are male or female. It does not really
:55:02. > :55:06.matter. I think if you are a woman, you juggling lots of other things as
:55:07. > :55:10.well. But there's coming back to Wales full-time mean she is
:55:11. > :55:14.interested not just in assembly politics but actually in being an
:55:15. > :55:19.Assembly Member? It is not something I seriously thought about. I have
:55:20. > :55:22.not ruled it in or out. There is one thing I have learned as a
:55:23. > :55:28.politician, never say never because someone walls -- always what you
:55:29. > :55:32.said. But I am looking forward to a way in which I can make a difference
:55:33. > :55:36.in public life and I am quite excited by the fact that there will
:55:37. > :55:40.be opportunities. And what those opportunities are, I cannot tell at
:55:41. > :55:43.the moment. That I will not shut any doors at the moment. I will see what
:55:44. > :55:46.comes along. The former Commons deputy speaker, Nigel Evans, says
:55:47. > :55:49.the Crown Prosecution Service should pay his ?130,000 legal bill, after
:55:50. > :55:53.he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week. The Swansea-born
:55:54. > :55:57.MP, who's a former Shadow Welsh Secretary, told a newspaper that the
:55:58. > :56:00.court battle cost him all his life savings. Joining us now from our
:56:01. > :56:17.Nottingham studio is a friend of Mr Evans - the former Montgomeryshire
:56:18. > :56:22.MP, Lembit Opik. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Clearly,
:56:23. > :56:26.Nigel Evans is extremely angry, judging by some of the reports in
:56:27. > :56:30.the newspapers today. Do you share that anger? Yes, I do. I think he
:56:31. > :56:36.has been dignified from beginning to end. A year of career wrecking hell
:56:37. > :56:43.ending where I was sure it would end up. It is no surprise he is angry.
:56:44. > :56:48.Surprising he is not more bitter. Let's look at it this way he was
:56:49. > :56:51.cleared of all seven charges and has been dragged through the papers day
:56:52. > :56:57.after day. Were accusations and he has chopped -- lost the job he
:56:58. > :57:01.loved. I am surprised he was able to hold it together as well as he has.
:57:02. > :57:05.We understand the chair of the Commons home affairs committee is
:57:06. > :57:09.going to call for a review into this case and other similar cases. Do you
:57:10. > :57:15.think that is a good idea? Yes, there are three things to look
:57:16. > :57:20.at, what is the burden of evidence? I was amazed that someone -- the
:57:21. > :57:24.police thought that someone like Nigel Evans could not possibly have
:57:25. > :57:28.committed these crimes and has been dragged through the courts.
:57:29. > :57:33.Secondly, it has cost him ?130,000 just to clear his name. And
:57:34. > :57:37.thirdly, the nature of anonymity, as you have described. And the
:57:38. > :57:42.suggestion is he has been punished in a terrible way, even though he
:57:43. > :57:45.did not do anything wrong. We have heard from the Director of Public
:57:46. > :57:50.Prosecutions service and she makes the point that they felt they had
:57:51. > :57:55.enough to make a reasonable case for a conviction but of course, the
:57:56. > :58:03.standards that a jury set are much higher than that. Let's look at how
:58:04. > :58:06.strong their case was. It was so weak that they had me as a
:58:07. > :58:10.prosecution witness. I thought it was a mistake when I first heard
:58:11. > :58:16.that. They had someone like me who thought Nigel was innocent sounding
:58:17. > :58:19.in the dock -- standing in the dock because they were desperate to
:58:20. > :58:23.cobble together this set of charges. One of the points that I think Nigel
:58:24. > :58:27.Evans rightly makes is there a seat that there is a series of individual
:58:28. > :58:31.accusations and they were trying to package it up as an overall case
:58:32. > :58:36.against him. The CPS really do have to look at themselves. They are in
:58:37. > :58:41.the dock now. And they need to explain why it is natural justice
:58:42. > :58:49.for them not to offer to pay back the ?130,000 at Nigel Evans spent.
:58:50. > :58:54.This is the so-called bundling up, putting in weaker allegations. What
:58:55. > :59:00.do you think should have happened in this case? It was a fishing
:59:01. > :59:03.expedition really and the press have come under attack for that sort of
:59:04. > :59:07.thing and it looks like the CPS were up to the same sort of tricks. We
:59:08. > :59:10.should have a much clearer understanding of the burden of
:59:11. > :59:14.proof, not simply a knee jerk reaction to the failures of the
:59:15. > :59:17.Jimmy Savile case. And we should be very clear that someone who is found
:59:18. > :59:26.innocent should not be effectively be paid a 130,000 fountain fine --
:59:27. > :59:33.?130,000 fine. I think people like Nigel Evans are not on a Level
:59:34. > :59:37.Playing Field. The right thing to do is not reveal the identity of a
:59:38. > :59:41.defendant in just the same way as the plaintiff 's were secured
:59:42. > :59:46.anonymity. Of course, if the person is found guilty afterwards, it is
:59:47. > :59:50.right to report that. But Nigel was effectively found guilty in the
:59:51. > :59:54.press. And now he has four days of coverage to clear his name. Have you
:59:55. > :00:00.spoken to him and what do you think is critical future is? I have. He is
:00:01. > :00:03.very emotional, understandably. He is trying to get his life together.
:00:04. > :00:08.If there was any justice, he would get his job as Deputy Speaker back.
:00:09. > :00:12.Thank you very much indeed. And that's all from us this week and for
:00:13. > :00:16.the next two Sundays. We're having a two week Easter break but when come
:00:17. > :00:19.back, we'll be in full European election mode. If you want more news
:00:20. > :00:23.today, there are regular updates on our online services in English and
:00:24. > :00:27.Welsh and on Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. Wales Today is on BBC One
:00:28. > :00:29.Wales at 6:50pm and Newyddion is on S4C at 5:50pm. For now though, it's
:00:30. > :00:40.back to Andrew. risk. We have run out of time. --
:00:41. > :00:50.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:51. > :00:52.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:53. > :01:03.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:04. > :01:07.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:08. > :01:12.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:13. > :01:15.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:16. > :01:20.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:21. > :01:23.things that most people do not know much about. They know very little
:01:24. > :01:31.about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to
:01:32. > :01:37.do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of
:01:38. > :01:41.them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out
:01:42. > :01:49.and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,
:01:50. > :01:53.the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty
:01:54. > :01:57.much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they
:01:58. > :02:02.feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd
:02:03. > :02:08.agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try
:02:09. > :02:12.to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out
:02:13. > :02:17.there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very
:02:18. > :02:20.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:21. > :02:27.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:28. > :02:31.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:32. > :02:36.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:37. > :02:38.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:39. > :02:45.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:46. > :02:48.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:49. > :02:53.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:54. > :02:56.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:57. > :03:03.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:04. > :03:10.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:11. > :03:14.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:15. > :03:19.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:20. > :03:23.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:24. > :03:26.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:27. > :03:30.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:31. > :03:35.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:36. > :03:38.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:39. > :03:42.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:43. > :03:46.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:47. > :03:51.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:52. > :03:57.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:58. > :04:03.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:04. > :04:06.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:07. > :04:12.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:13. > :04:17.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:18. > :04:22.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:23. > :04:28.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:29. > :04:34.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:35. > :04:39.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:40. > :04:44.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:45. > :04:49.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I
:04:50. > :04:52.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:53. > :04:57.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:58. > :05:01.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:02. > :05:04.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:05. > :05:10.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:11. > :05:17.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:18. > :05:22.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:23. > :05:25.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:26. > :05:31.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:32. > :05:36.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:37. > :05:41.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:42. > :05:47.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:48. > :05:53.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:54. > :05:57.sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on
:05:58. > :06:00.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:01. > :06:07.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:08. > :06:12.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:13. > :06:19.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:20. > :06:25.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:26. > :06:31.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:32. > :06:37.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:38. > :06:42.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:43. > :06:47.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:48. > :06:51.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:52. > :06:55.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:56. > :06:58.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:06:59. > :07:04.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:05. > :07:09.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:10. > :07:14.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:15. > :07:20.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:21. > :07:24.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:25. > :07:27.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:28. > :07:30.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:31. > :07:35.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:36. > :07:38.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:39. > :07:42.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:43. > :07:45.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:46. > :07:50.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:51. > :07:56.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:57. > :08:02.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:03. > :08:05.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:06. > :08:11.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:12. > :08:15.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:16. > :08:21.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:22. > :08:27.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:28. > :08:32.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:33. > :08:37.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:38. > :08:39.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who
:08:40. > :08:44.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:45. > :08:48.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:49. > :08:54.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:55. > :09:00.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:01. > :09:04.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:05. > :09:07.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:08. > :09:12.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:13. > :09:19.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:20. > :09:22.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:23. > :09:26.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:27. > :09:32.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:33. > :09:34.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:35. > :09:38.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:39. > :09:44.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:45. > :09:49.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:50. > :09:53.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:54. > :10:01.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:02. > :10:06.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:07. > :10:10.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:11. > :10:14.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:15. > :10:17.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:18. > :10:20.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:21. > :10:23.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:24. > :10:26.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:27. > :10:34.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:35. > :10:37.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:38. > :10:42.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:43. > :10:46.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:47. > :10:54.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:55. > :10:57.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:10:58. > :11:01.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:02. > :11:06.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:07. > :11:10.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:11. > :11:14.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:15. > :11:19.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:20. > :11:22.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:23. > :11:25.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:26. > :11:29.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:30. > :11:32.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:33. > :11:36.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:37. > :11:39.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:40. > :11:43.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:44. > :11:47.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:48. > :11:53.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:54. > :11:58.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:11:59. > :12:04.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:05. > :12:07.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:08. > :12:13.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:14. > :12:19.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:20. > :12:23.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:24. > :12:28.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:29. > :12:33.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:34. > :12:36.and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave
:12:37. > :12:40.after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I
:12:41. > :12:45.think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you
:12:46. > :12:51.get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:52. > :12:58.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:59. > :13:40.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC