:00:35. > :00:38.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking
:00:39. > :00:47.about the Europe-wide contest that really matters. No, not Eurovision.
:00:48. > :00:50.The European elections. There are local elections across England too
:00:51. > :00:54.on May 22nd. The party leaders are campaigning ahead of polling day.
:00:55. > :01:00.The results could be a pointer to the Big One, May 2015. We'll be
:01:01. > :01:03.speaking to the man in charge of Labour's election battle plan. Has
:01:04. > :01:07.the opposition really got its sights set on all-out victory in 2015? Or
:01:08. > :01:14.will it just be content with squeaking home? And you can't
:01:15. > :01:18.mention elections these days without talking about the impact of this
:01:19. > :01:29.Four Welsh MEPs will be elected on him if UKIP really
:01:30. > :01:30.Four Welsh MEPs will be elected on the 22nd of
:01:31. > :01:30.Four Welsh MEPs will be elected on boroughs. What will make a
:01:31. > :01:41.difference to the way you vote? And I'm joined by three journalists
:01:42. > :01:45.guaranteed to bring a touch of Eurovision glamour to your Sunday
:01:46. > :01:47.morning. With views more controversial than a bearded
:01:48. > :01:57.Austrian drag act and twice the dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen
:01:58. > :02:00.Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might have thought you've already heard
:02:01. > :02:04.David Cameron promise an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2017
:02:05. > :02:09.if he's still Prime Minister. Many times. Many, many times. Well he
:02:10. > :02:12.obviously doesn't think you've been listening, because he's been saying
:02:13. > :02:17.it again today. Here he is speaking to the BBC earlier. We will hold a
:02:18. > :02:21.referendum by the end of 2017. It will be a referendum on an in-out
:02:22. > :02:24.basis. Do we stay in a reformed European Union or do we leave? And
:02:25. > :02:28.I've said very clearly that whatever the outcome of the next election,
:02:29. > :02:30.and of course I want an overall majority and I'm hoping and
:02:31. > :02:34.believing I can win an overall majority, that people should be in
:02:35. > :02:43.no doubt I will not become Prime Minister unless I can guarantee that
:02:44. > :02:47.we will hold a referendum. Here's saying there that an overall
:02:48. > :02:51.majority there will definitely be a referendum. If these are the
:02:52. > :02:56.minority position, he won't form a new coalition unless they agree to a
:02:57. > :03:00.referendum, too. The Lib Dems a pulmonary agree to that. They
:03:01. > :03:03.probably will because the Prime ministers have a strong argument
:03:04. > :03:07.which is I gave you a referendum back in 2010 so the least I need is
:03:08. > :03:11.theirs and the Lib Dems are the only party who have stood in recent
:03:12. > :03:15.elections on a clear mandate to hold a referendum, so it is difficult for
:03:16. > :03:19.them to say no, there was interesting the interview he did
:03:20. > :03:23.earlier today. He named everything was going to ask for. The most
:03:24. > :03:27.controversial with him, as he said in his speech last year, he wants to
:03:28. > :03:33.take Britain out of the commitment to make the European Union and ever
:03:34. > :03:37.closer union. That is a very big ask, but the point is, he may well
:03:38. > :03:41.get it because the choice for the European Union now, France and
:03:42. > :03:46.Germany, is a clear wonderful do Britain in or out? Previously, it
:03:47. > :03:50.was can you put up with a British prime ministers being annoying? I
:03:51. > :03:55.think you'll find the answer is they are willing to pay a price but not
:03:56. > :03:58.any price to keep Britain in. In this scenario, Labour would have
:03:59. > :04:04.lost the election again because we are talking the slowly happen if Mr
:04:05. > :04:08.Cameron is the largest party or has an overall majority. Could you then
:04:09. > :04:12.see Labour deciding we had better go along with a referendum, too? I
:04:13. > :04:15.think that's unlikely because as I think that's unlikely because
:04:16. > :04:17.there's a huge upside for that for I think what's interesting is the idea
:04:18. > :04:22.he would for minority government. Would you get confidence and look at
:04:23. > :04:26.other options that might well happen with the way the arithmetic is going
:04:27. > :04:28.or is he going to hold out and say the only way I will be Prime
:04:29. > :04:34.Minister is in a majority Conservative government? No, the
:04:35. > :04:37.implication of his remarks was I wouldn't form a coalition government
:04:38. > :04:42.unless my coalition partners would also agree to vote for a referendum.
:04:43. > :04:46.He's basically talking about is negotiating strategy in those
:04:47. > :04:51.coalition talks. It's a red line and a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems,
:04:52. > :04:55.because they know David Cameron absolutely has to do, for accidental
:04:56. > :04:59.reasons, as a person who survives as Tory leader, to ask for that
:05:00. > :05:04.referendum, so they can ask anything they want in return and if I was
:05:05. > :05:07.Nick Clegg, I would work out in the next year one absolute colossal
:05:08. > :05:14.negotiating demand for those coalition talks. For a party around
:05:15. > :05:17.10% in the polls, they will do have the Prime Minister over a barrel on
:05:18. > :05:28.this one, assuming that coalition talks goes well. They could make
:05:29. > :05:32.Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we need to move on. So, the politicians
:05:33. > :05:35.are out and about on what used to be called the stump ahead of local and
:05:36. > :05:38.European elections in less than two weeks' time. But, without wanting to
:05:39. > :05:41.depress you on a damp Sunday morning, the party strategists are
:05:42. > :05:44.already hard at work on their campaign plans for the General
:05:45. > :05:47.Election next May. Yes, it's less than a year to go. They may have
:05:48. > :05:50.taken their time, but Labour's battleplan for 2015 is starting to
:05:51. > :05:53.take shape. As well as take promising to freeze your energy
:05:54. > :05:56.bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate of tax, Ed Miliband now says he
:05:57. > :06:01.wants to intervene in the housing market to keep rents down. There's
:06:02. > :06:07.even talk that the party leadership wants to bring more railway lines
:06:08. > :06:10.into public ownership. And Labour is gambling that its big push on the
:06:11. > :06:14.cost of living will see it through to the general election despite
:06:15. > :06:17.evidence that growth is firmly back. Labour's campaign chief Douglas
:06:18. > :06:25.Alexander hopes it all adds up to victory next May. But so far, the
:06:26. > :06:28.evidence is hitting home very thin. One survey today shows that 56% of
:06:29. > :06:33.people don't think Mr Miliband is up to the job of Prime Minister. As we
:06:34. > :06:36.head towards one of the least predictable general elections in 70
:06:37. > :06:41.years, has Labour got a message to win seats up and down the country?
:06:42. > :06:48.And Labour's election co-ordinator and Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:06:49. > :06:52.Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of
:06:53. > :06:55.these policies announced polar pretty well. By popular with the
:06:56. > :07:02.country. When you add them together, it's a move to the left and what
:07:03. > :07:04.would be wrong with that? I think is your packet suggests, the contours
:07:05. > :07:10.in the coming campaign are becoming clear. Our judgement is the defining
:07:11. > :07:13.issue of the year in British politics will be the widening gap
:07:14. > :07:17.between the wealth of the country and the finances of ordinary
:07:18. > :07:20.families. We believe it will be a cost of living election and we have
:07:21. > :07:23.been setting out our thinking in relation to energy prices and rent,
:07:24. > :07:27.but you will hear more from Labour Party in the coming months because
:07:28. > :07:31.we're now less than one year away from a decisive moment. If the
:07:32. > :07:36.leftish think tank suggested any of his policies in that Tony Blair
:07:37. > :07:43.years, you would have opposed them. Let's be clear, when not going for
:07:44. > :07:46.an interest but seeking to secure a majority for the only way to do that
:07:47. > :07:48.is not simply to appeal to your base, but to the centre ground. I
:07:49. > :07:54.believe we got genuine opportunities in the next year. You have the
:07:55. > :07:59.Conservatives in a struggle with UKIP on the right of politics. The
:08:00. > :08:02.Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their base, and there's a genuine
:08:03. > :08:07.opportunity in the next year for Labour to dominate the centre ground
:08:08. > :08:11.of politics and secure the majority Labour government we are planning
:08:12. > :08:21.for in the coming year. I notice you didn't deny you wouldn't have
:08:22. > :08:25.opposed. You say you have got an message for aspirational voters in
:08:26. > :08:28.the South. This is what John Denham said. He thinks you're talking too
:08:29. > :08:45.much to your core vote. He is right to recognise we took a
:08:46. > :08:47.terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If you look at what we've done in the
:08:48. > :08:53.last week, for example, the signature policy on rent Ed Miliband
:08:54. > :08:56.announced to launch the campaign, there's now more than 9 million
:08:57. > :09:01.people in the country in the private rented sector, more than 1 million
:09:02. > :09:03.families. Many of them are in the south-east. They are seeing
:09:04. > :09:09.circumstances where, suddenly, landlord will increase the rent and
:09:10. > :09:13.they put the pressure involved in schooling, health care facing the
:09:14. > :09:16.families, so it is important both in terms of policy and in terms of
:09:17. > :09:20.politics that we speak to the whole country, not simply to one part of
:09:21. > :09:28.it falls up what is the average rise in event last year? I don't know.
:09:29. > :09:35.Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real terms. I'm not sure what the problem
:09:36. > :09:39.is. It will happen to wages in last year, we are facing circumstances
:09:40. > :09:46.where people will be worse off, up to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if
:09:47. > :09:50.our opponents want to argue that the economy has healed and they deserve
:09:51. > :09:54.a victory lap, good luck to them because actually, what we are
:09:55. > :09:59.hearing from the Buddhist public, not just in the north and south, is
:10:00. > :10:02.not the cost living crisis is continuing and it affects families.
:10:03. > :10:07.There was nothing aspirational about your party election broadcast for
:10:08. > :10:11.the European elections. It looked like crude class war to money
:10:12. > :10:15.people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom tax. Isn't it going to look bad that
:10:16. > :10:21.two thirds of those affected are disabled? Who cares? They can't
:10:22. > :10:29.fight back. Shall be lay-offs and NHS nurses? The National Health
:10:30. > :10:39.Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has
:10:40. > :10:44.shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt
:10:45. > :10:50.him? Nothing about Europe, Labour policy. News that the Tories would
:10:51. > :10:56.result in negative campaigning and smear. You didn't tell you would be
:10:57. > :11:00.just as bad. Let's start the party broadcast. The one thing guaranteed
:11:01. > :11:06.to have most people reaching for the remote control these days are the
:11:07. > :11:10.words, there now follows a party but the broadcast. I make no apology in
:11:11. > :11:14.the factory to be innovative in how we presented. It's factual. It was a
:11:15. > :11:19.policy -based critic of this government. And the Lib Dems role
:11:20. > :11:24.within it. So you're claiming it's factual to betray the camera and
:11:25. > :11:31.cabinet is not even knowing what the NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They
:11:32. > :11:36.attack the disabled because they can't fight back. The Pinellas
:11:37. > :11:43.Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun and he was treated during a short
:11:44. > :11:47.life by the NHS. It's a fact many disabled people across the country
:11:48. > :11:51.including in my constituency have been directly affected by the
:11:52. > :11:54.bedroom tax. And ultimately, this Conservative led government,
:11:55. > :11:59.including the Lib Dems, will be held accountable by the politicians. You
:12:00. > :12:04.say that, the Prime Minister, who had a severely disabled son of. I
:12:05. > :12:10.you not ashamed about? I shadowed Iain Duncan Smith of five months
:12:11. > :12:14.also they don't have the excuses of seeing that saying nobody told them
:12:15. > :12:17.the consequences of the bedroom tax. They went into this with their eyes
:12:18. > :12:21.open. They knew about the hardship and difficulty. If they were
:12:22. > :12:23.one-bedroom properties available across the country for people to
:12:24. > :12:31.move into, their argument would be OK but they knew they were dealing
:12:32. > :12:34.with the most vulnerable people. Did you sign off that part of the
:12:35. > :12:39.broadcast? Of course I stand by the fact of it. I wish David Cameron and
:12:40. > :12:43.Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to the disabled people of the country
:12:44. > :12:47.and the poorest people for the effects of the bedroom tax. I hope
:12:48. > :12:53.we get that apology between now and election. As someone who thinks
:12:54. > :12:59.integrity is important in politics, not ashamed of this kind of thing?
:13:00. > :13:01.It's important we scrutinise the policies of this government as well
:13:02. > :13:08.as adding a positive agenda for change. You want that you won't
:13:09. > :13:13.promise this is the last time we'll see such a negative press campaign?
:13:14. > :13:16.I don't think it is negative or personal to scrutinise the
:13:17. > :13:20.government. So we'll get more of this? I'm less interested in the
:13:21. > :13:26.background of the cabinet than their views. You call the upper-class
:13:27. > :13:30.twits. It's for the British public to make a judgement in terms of the
:13:31. > :13:37.British... That's how you depicted them. We are held in accountable for
:13:38. > :13:41.the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation, and our record they have to defend.
:13:42. > :13:46.One reason are so fearful in this election is actually because they
:13:47. > :13:51.know they have a poor record. Let's look at other part of the election
:13:52. > :13:56.campaign. This poster. Particularly digitally doing the rounds. On that
:13:57. > :14:03.shopping basket, can you tell us which items take the full 20% VAT?
:14:04. > :14:06.It's representative of household shopping, which includes items like
:14:07. > :14:18.cleaning products, and we know that food is not that trouble. People
:14:19. > :14:26.don't go to the supermarket and say this is -- vatable. So you are
:14:27. > :14:34.denying that ?450 extra is being paid? Yes, where'd you get that
:14:35. > :14:42.figure? For an average family to pay ?450 a year extra VAT, they would
:14:43. > :14:47.have to spend ?21,600 a year on vatable products at 20%. The average
:14:48. > :14:52.take-home pay is only 21,009. They have got to spend on all sorts of
:14:53. > :14:56.things which are zero VAT. So in addition to the items, has a range
:14:57. > :15:02.of products people face in terms of VAT. How could an average family of
:15:03. > :15:11.?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the pound a year on 20% vatable items?
:15:12. > :15:20.It's not an annual figure, is it? So what is it then? If it's an annual,
:15:21. > :15:23.what is it? The increased VAT in this parliament is calculated over
:15:24. > :15:31.the course of a Parliament. For the whole of the Parliament? And you're
:15:32. > :15:36.illustrated this with a shopping basket which almost has no VAT on it
:15:37. > :15:40.at all? People will be buying a weekly shop in the course of this
:15:41. > :15:44.Parliament every week. Did you sign off on this as well? Of course. It
:15:45. > :15:49.didn't dawn on you you're putting things on it which have no VAT? If
:15:50. > :15:55.you want to argue some people go to the shops and say these are vatable
:15:56. > :16:02.or not, I disagree. Even your rent cap announcement went wrong. You're
:16:03. > :16:12.working on the rent rises and it turns out it wasn't. It was a post
:16:13. > :16:16.your policy. It is the exception rather than the rule to have the
:16:17. > :16:20.position we have at the moment. In Northern Ireland we have seen the
:16:21. > :16:23.continued rise in terms of the rented sector but there is a
:16:24. > :16:31.widespread recognition that for those people in the rented sector,
:16:32. > :16:38.change is necessary. Are you coordinating this campaign? It seems
:16:39. > :16:47.accident prone. This is a party that has set the agenda more effectively
:16:48. > :16:50.than a Conservative party that said when David Cameron was elected he
:16:51. > :16:58.wasn't going to bang on about Europe. The day after the election
:16:59. > :17:05.we expect the Conservative party to be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of
:17:06. > :17:09.what we talk about and I think there is a clear contrast about a party
:17:10. > :17:14.talking about issues people care about, and a Conservative party
:17:15. > :17:21.talking about exclusively a referendum. Are you in charge of the
:17:22. > :17:27.campaign? I am coordinating the campaign is, yes. The expensive
:17:28. > :17:32.election guru you have hired, has he been involved in any of this? We
:17:33. > :17:36.have started our discussions with him. You are going to have to brief
:17:37. > :17:44.him about British politics because he doesn't know anything about it. I
:17:45. > :17:49.make no apology for hiring him. He has a lot of experience in winning
:17:50. > :17:55.tight elections and that is what we are expecting. If you are expecting
:17:56. > :18:02.us to say, they have passed and we have to hold them accountable, then
:18:03. > :18:06.I am sorry but we have a campaign that holds the Government and the
:18:07. > :18:17.Conservatives to account for what I think is a very hopeless record in
:18:18. > :18:20.government. Thank you. He leads a party with zero MPs but
:18:21. > :18:23.his media presence is huge. He's had an expenses scandal, but the public
:18:24. > :18:26.didn't seem to mind. He's got a privileged background but he's seen
:18:27. > :18:29.as an anti-establishment champion. Nothing seems to stick to him, not
:18:30. > :18:32.even eggs. I speak of course of Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a
:18:33. > :18:36.moment, but first Giles has been out on the campaign trail ahead of
:18:37. > :18:38.elections that could make or break the UKIP leader.
:18:39. > :18:41.Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at this stage of the Euro and local
:18:42. > :18:46.election campaign he is, like his party, in buoyant mood. They feel
:18:47. > :18:52.they are on the verge of what they see as causing an earthquake in
:18:53. > :18:56.British politics. Today Nigel is filling thousands seat venues and
:18:57. > :19:04.bigger. Not that there's much sign of that at this press launch. But
:19:05. > :19:07.it's a threat with serious money behind it, that they believe the
:19:08. > :19:10.media and the political elite just haven't realised yet, much less
:19:11. > :19:12.learned how to counter it. Not that it's all been plain sailing.
:19:13. > :19:15.Offensive comments from some candidates has not only seen UKIP
:19:16. > :19:21.labelled as racist, but necessitated a rally by the party to visibly and
:19:22. > :19:25.verbally challenge that. The offensive idiotic statements made by
:19:26. > :19:28.this handful of people have been lifted up and presented to the great
:19:29. > :19:35.British public as if they represent the view of this party, which they
:19:36. > :19:46.do not. They never have and they never will. APPLAUSE
:19:47. > :19:54.I don't care what you call us, but from this moment on, please do not
:19:55. > :20:04.call must trust a racist party. We are not a racist party.
:20:05. > :20:06.The need to say that is not just about the European and local
:20:07. > :20:09.elections even at that campaign launch it's clear UKIP's leader has
:20:10. > :20:12.set his sights firmly on the ultimate prize. I come from the
:20:13. > :20:15.south of England and I would not want to be seen as an opportunist
:20:16. > :20:20.heading to the north, north Norfolk or whatever it will be. I will make
:20:21. > :20:26.my mind up and stand in the general election for somewhere in Kent, East
:20:27. > :20:30.Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are
:20:31. > :20:40.still drilling down how the last fortnight of campaigning should go.
:20:41. > :20:43.They aren't taking any chances, and one imagines having offices above
:20:44. > :20:46.those of Max Clifford is a reminder how fragile built reputations can be
:20:47. > :20:49.of the bubble bursting. They want their reputation to be built on
:20:50. > :20:52.votes and they know anything but significant success on May 22nd and
:20:53. > :21:00.some seats in Westminster in 2015 isn't going to be good enough. And
:21:01. > :21:03.after that, having sold yourselves as the honest outsiders, that stance
:21:04. > :21:06.is harder to maintain once your people are on the inside. And subtle
:21:07. > :21:12.changes from the past are already noticeable. The ordinary man of the
:21:13. > :21:15.people stance is still working. Characteristically outside a pub,
:21:16. > :21:21.Nigel Farage is glad handed by a customer. Two weeks to go, let's
:21:22. > :21:26.cause an upset. Wouldn't that be great? The only sign that such an
:21:27. > :21:38.interaction is different now is the ever presence of bodyguards who
:21:39. > :21:41.shadow his every move. Over lunch ahead of Question Time, a radio
:21:42. > :21:45.appearance, and then off to Scotland, I ask him if some of those
:21:46. > :21:49.minded to vote UKIP who see him as a man they'd be comfortable having a
:21:50. > :21:51.drink with are the sort of people he'd be entirely comfortable sitting
:21:52. > :21:53.down with. Every political party attracts support from across the
:21:54. > :22:02.spectrum and there will be some magnificent people who vote for us
:22:03. > :22:07.and some ne'er-do-wells. The one common thing about UKIP voters is
:22:08. > :22:11.that they are often not very political. And it's that people's
:22:12. > :22:13.army that if UKIP can get to a polling booth might just create that
:22:14. > :22:21.earthquake they want. Nigel Farage joins me now. When you
:22:22. > :22:24.decided not to stand at the new work by election coming said if you lost
:22:25. > :22:44.it that the bubble would have burst. What did you mean by that? I
:22:45. > :22:50.was asked at seven 20p -- at 7:21pm if I would stand, I have decided by
:22:51. > :22:57.the next morning that I would not. I didn't know he was going to resign.
:22:58. > :23:00.You claim only a handful of UKIP candidates have ever said things
:23:01. > :23:09.that are either stupid or offensive, I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I'd
:23:10. > :23:12.rather it was non-. But why have you chosen a candidate to fight this
:23:13. > :23:19.by-election that has said many things most people would regard as
:23:20. > :23:24.stupid or offensive? Roger is fighting this for us, someone of 70
:23:25. > :23:29.years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background,
:23:30. > :23:33.in an age when homosexuality was imprisonable. He had a certain set
:23:34. > :23:37.of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he
:23:38. > :23:43.accepts the world has moved on and he is relaxed about it. The comments
:23:44. > :23:50.about homosexuality are not from the dark ages, they are from two or
:23:51. > :23:56.three years ago. From when he was a Conservative, yes, so will you be
:23:57. > :24:00.asking David Cameron that question? I have never seen a single comment
:24:01. > :24:06.from Roger that would be deemed to be offensive. Do you regard his
:24:07. > :24:11.comments on homosexuality as offensive? When he grew up,
:24:12. > :24:20.homosexuality was illegal in this country. But this was in 2012 but he
:24:21. > :24:30.said that. Most people have his age still feel uncomfortable about it --
:24:31. > :24:38.of his age. In 2012 he said, if two men can be married, why not three,
:24:39. > :24:42.why not a commune. Many people in this country are disconcerted by the
:24:43. > :24:45.change in the meaning of marriage and in a tolerant society we
:24:46. > :24:51.understand that some people have different views. But he has changed
:24:52. > :25:02.his views now in only two years? He says he is more relaxed about it.
:25:03. > :25:06.Was he your candidate? He is a first-class campaigner who has had
:25:07. > :25:11.30 years in industry, he served in the European Parliament, he is a
:25:12. > :25:15.good candidate. This morning's papers suggest you are about to
:25:16. > :25:21.select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby, but she is on camera saying that, of
:25:22. > :25:25.immigrants, I just want to send a lot back. This is all very
:25:26. > :25:29.interesting, and we can talk about it, all we could talk about the fact
:25:30. > :25:34.that in 12 days we have a European election and every voter across the
:25:35. > :25:40.UK can vote on it and it is really interesting. Are you happy to pick a
:25:41. > :25:48.candidate that says of immigrants, I just want to send a lot back? I have
:25:49. > :25:55.seen the tape, it is a complete misquote and she says it in the
:25:56. > :26:01.context of illegal immigrants. I have seen the full quote and in the
:26:02. > :26:05.context it is not about illegal immigrants. Let's come onto the
:26:06. > :26:10.European campaign, you have used a company that employs Eastern
:26:11. > :26:14.European is to deliver leaflets in London and the Home Counties. Have
:26:15. > :26:20.we? I'm told that in Croydon one branch might have done that. Have
:26:21. > :26:25.you found some indigenous Brits to deliver leaflets in Europe? We have
:26:26. > :26:29.thousands joining the party every month and they are not all
:26:30. > :26:35.indigenous because what is interesting is that in today's
:26:36. > :26:47.opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib Dems and the Conservatives amongst
:26:48. > :27:01.the indigenous voting. We have not agreed a manifesto for
:27:02. > :27:09.the general election, we will do over the course of the summer. This
:27:10. > :27:13.is in your local election. We are having local elections in some part
:27:14. > :27:16.of the country but we are fighting a European election. It is impossible
:27:17. > :27:23.with the British media to have an intelligent debate on the European
:27:24. > :27:27.question. But as I say, we are also fighting the local elections too.
:27:28. > :27:33.You have promised these tax cuts, how much will they cost? I have met
:27:34. > :27:38.-- read the local election manifesto and it doesn't make those promises.
:27:39. > :27:43.We do talk about local services, we do talk about the need to keep
:27:44. > :27:51.council tax down but we don't talk about income tax. Absolutely not. In
:27:52. > :27:57.local election campaigning you say you would restore cuts to policing,
:27:58. > :28:04.double prison places, restore cuts to front line NHS, spend more on
:28:05. > :28:09.roads, how much would that cost? You are obviously reading different
:28:10. > :28:12.documents to me. We are voting for local councillors in district
:28:13. > :28:20.councils who have got little local budgets. Every party in a manifesto
:28:21. > :28:26.puts his aspirations in it. Have you read it? Of course I have, cover to
:28:27. > :28:32.cover, which is why I'm saying you are misquoting it. By the way, on
:28:33. > :28:39.the bubble bursting, you told that to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of
:28:40. > :28:44.British laws are now made in the European Union. Now AstraZeneca is
:28:45. > :28:50.potentially going to be taken over by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to
:28:51. > :28:54.show the public that that decision cannot be taken here but by an
:28:55. > :29:01.elected European commissioner, and we sit and argue about what is in or
:29:02. > :29:12.not in the local election manifesto. It is my job, but let me come on to
:29:13. > :29:19.AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a British government should stop the
:29:20. > :29:28.takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot. Can we please get this clear. I sat
:29:29. > :29:33.next to Chuka Umunna the other day at question time and he said what
:29:34. > :29:37.could and couldn't be done. He said I am being studiously neutral, and
:29:38. > :29:44.the reason is we don't have this power. That is what the European
:29:45. > :29:56.elections is about. Should France have the takeover of the food
:29:57. > :30:05.company Danan? We seem to do things to the Nth degree and nobody else
:30:06. > :30:09.does, perhaps because we have this culture and we obey it. In your
:30:10. > :30:17.view, you don't think Pfizer should be able to take over AstraZeneca?
:30:18. > :30:22.There is some good science within AstraZeneca which is in danger of
:30:23. > :30:29.being asset stripped and lost. Because it is run by a Swede and a
:30:30. > :30:34.Frenchman and most of its employees are overseas. I understand that but
:30:35. > :30:38.there are still some good science being produced here. What did you
:30:39. > :30:43.think of the Prime Minister saying he would not form a government after
:30:44. > :30:51.the election unless he was able to have a referendum in 2017? I sat
:30:52. > :30:56.here talking to you and you said to me that David Cameron had given a
:30:57. > :30:59.cast-iron guarantee that if David Cameron becomes Prime Minister he
:31:00. > :31:05.will have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but he didn't deliver on
:31:06. > :31:09.that. He knows that people struggle to believe the renegotiation is
:31:10. > :31:13.worth a row of beans. He is saying he will not form a government unless
:31:14. > :31:17.he can go forward with the referendum. I know he is desperately
:31:18. > :31:21.trying to pretend to be Eurosceptic whilst at the same time saying he
:31:22. > :31:26.will campaign for Britain to remain in. In a sense, that is what this
:31:27. > :31:29.election is about. We have three traditional parties, all of whom
:31:30. > :31:34.passionately believe in the continued membership of the European
:31:35. > :31:38.Union and we have UKIP saying we want trade and cooperation but there
:31:39. > :31:45.is a bigger and better world out there. You are now travelling with I
:31:46. > :31:53.think four bodyguards, has this affected you and your family life? I
:31:54. > :31:57.can't stand it. I've always wondered about the place and on my own thing.
:31:58. > :32:01.Sadly we have a couple of organisations out there headed up by
:32:02. > :32:05.senior Labour Party figures who purport to be against fascism and
:32:06. > :32:09.extremism, who received funding from the Department of communities, from
:32:10. > :32:13.the trade unions, who have acted in a violent wait more than once. You
:32:14. > :32:19.are saying the Labour Party is behind the threats? No, I said a
:32:20. > :32:22.taxpayer funded, trade union funded and headed by senior Labour Party
:32:23. > :32:26.figures, and I'm happy for them to come to my meetings and have an
:32:27. > :32:30.itinerant with me, but it's not so much fun when there are banging you
:32:31. > :32:36.over the head. I is still keen to be an MP? Yes, what UKIP will then do
:32:37. > :32:41.is target before the general election next year for the one life
:32:42. > :32:46.be easier if you just went to the Lords? That's the last thing I want
:32:47. > :32:51.to do. There's an awful lot to do. Most of all, I will not rest until
:32:52. > :32:54.we are free from political union and government from Brussels. Nigel
:32:55. > :32:55.Farage, thank you for being with us. It's just gone 11.30am. You're
:32:56. > :33:18.watching the Sunday Politics. We say Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales:
:33:19. > :33:21.Can Plaid Cymru keep its seat in the European Parliament and how well
:33:22. > :33:25.will the UK Independence Party do in Wales? I will be speaking to the
:33:26. > :33:35.both parties lead candidates for the European elections on the 22nd of
:33:36. > :33:38.May. If you saw Conchita Wurst win
:33:39. > :33:42.Eurovision for Austria last night you may already have Euro fever. But
:33:43. > :33:45.if not, here is the lowdown on the European election, with a little
:33:46. > :33:52.help from British Eurovision winners Buck's Fizz.
:33:53. > :33:55.Between 22nd and 25th of May, voters in 28 countries across the European
:33:56. > :34:10.Union will be voting to elect 751 members of the European Parliament.
:34:11. > :34:13.Four of those will be from Wales. The parliament's official base is in
:34:14. > :34:21.the French town of Strasbourg, close to the German border, but it also
:34:22. > :34:27.meets in Brussels. Elections have been held every five years since
:34:28. > :34:32.1979. Before that members were drawn from national parliaments. Will the
:34:33. > :34:39.new men and women have more power than the old? Is an elected European
:34:40. > :34:42.Parliament a good thing anyway? The parliament is seen as the voice of
:34:43. > :34:49.the people within the EU, representing its 500 million
:34:50. > :34:53.citizens. Jill Evans has been an MEP for Plaid
:34:54. > :34:57.Cymru for fifteen years and hopes to get re-elected this month. She is
:34:58. > :35:06.the party's lead candidate and joins me now. What are your prospects of
:35:07. > :35:12.forgetting we elected? Some of the poll suggest you have a fight on
:35:13. > :35:15.your hands. We are campaigning very hard and we are getting a lot of
:35:16. > :35:22.support. Our message is that only Plaid Cymru up it wields vast. We
:35:23. > :35:31.have a record of working in the Welsh National interest. The seat
:35:32. > :35:39.that you occupy is under threat. Where has the support gone? I think
:35:40. > :35:45.we are working in a different context in this election. There is a
:35:46. > :35:50.lot of awareness about Europe and a lot of concern. People have lost
:35:51. > :35:57.faith in politics and politicians. It is important that people take an
:35:58. > :36:02.active role in the process. We want change, but positive change in the
:36:03. > :36:09.interest of Wales. The more that people know about Europe, the less
:36:10. > :36:14.they like pro-European people like you? I want to have an honest
:36:15. > :36:24.discussion about Europe. One in ten jobs in Wales depends on the EU. But
:36:25. > :36:30.what we see on the British media is that the UK pays in more money than
:36:31. > :36:35.it gets back. The situation in Wales is different. It is in our interest
:36:36. > :36:43.to work positively in the EU. There have been some strident attacks on
:36:44. > :36:49.UKIP from your party. It has even been suggested that they are not
:36:50. > :36:52.Welsh. Is that back firing a bet if people are sceptical about the
:36:53. > :37:04.European Union? The more you talk about UKIP the more damage it does
:37:05. > :37:08.you? UKIP have not explained how what they want to do will help
:37:09. > :37:12.Wales. They want to leave the EU which will damage Wales and the
:37:13. > :37:17.Welsh economy. I do not think they are offering a positive message. If
:37:18. > :37:25.we want to build the economy and create jobs and help agriculture and
:37:26. > :37:29.industry we need to be in Europe. We need to change it but we need to
:37:30. > :37:39.work as part of a positive partnership. On Friday, a member of
:37:40. > :37:44.your party was criticising the other major parties are learning UKIP to
:37:45. > :37:52.steer the agenda. Why are you not setting the agenda in Wales? Why is
:37:53. > :37:56.Plaid Cymru not steering the agenda? We are proposing a radical reform.
:37:57. > :38:01.We want Wales to be a member state in Europe in its own right. We want
:38:02. > :38:18.Welsh ministers to board on Wales's Bihar. -- Wales's the half. If you
:38:19. > :38:27.look at the benefits that Wales has -- that Wales would have as he
:38:28. > :38:32.member state in Europe... So why do the people favour the idea of an
:38:33. > :38:40.independent Wales? We need to have a proper discussion in Wales about our
:38:41. > :38:48.future in Europe. There are going to be huge changes across Europe and I
:38:49. > :38:54.want Wales's voice to be heard. We need to have a strong voice their to
:38:55. > :39:06.make sure that Wales get all the benefits of being in Europe. You
:39:07. > :39:11.talk about the benefits to Wales being in the EU. The problem is that
:39:12. > :39:18.that is not a very distinctive message. I have been to Labour's
:39:19. > :39:25.campaign events and they say the same thing. They said that many jobs
:39:26. > :39:32.in Wales depend on the EU. It means you cannot carve out a niche? If you
:39:33. > :39:39.look at the record of the other parties in the European Parliament
:39:40. > :39:47.they do not vote in Wales's in chess. I am the only one who has
:39:48. > :39:51.consistently voted for Wales. For example, voting to keep the payments
:39:52. > :39:59.to our farmers and the youth guarantee scheme. There are several
:40:00. > :40:06.issues on which Plaid Cymru's record is distinct from the other parties.
:40:07. > :40:16.Let us top about the EU budget. It is being cut and you voted against
:40:17. > :40:21.that. All over Europe, governments and businesses and people have had
:40:22. > :40:28.to cut back. Why should the European Union the different? I was against
:40:29. > :40:30.making cuts during times when people were suffering the most. I was
:40:31. > :40:41.supporting a programme of investment. The cuts, cutting
:40:42. > :40:48.pensions and so on, it has not worked. Everyone in Europe in
:40:49. > :40:57.knowledge is now that what is needed is investment and creating jobs. I
:40:58. > :41:01.want to see the EU investing. The upshot of that is that member states
:41:02. > :41:06.like the UK have already decided to cut public spending and in that time
:41:07. > :41:10.it you are saying they should still be getting a bigger share
:41:11. > :41:19.proportionally to Brussels. You can understand why people may not find
:41:20. > :41:24.that a very popular idea? If you look at Wales, it benefits
:41:25. > :41:29.tremendously from the funding... But arguably the economy has not
:41:30. > :41:42.benefited? Wobbly because we have suffered from UK policy. What we
:41:43. > :41:47.need is investment. Wales has an effective regional policy. The UK is
:41:48. > :41:52.very unequal. There is a big difference between rich and pure
:41:53. > :42:04.areas. But is it an effective regional policy? Parts of Wales are
:42:05. > :42:11.less prosperous than the UK. Have we gone backwards? We need a plan. A
:42:12. > :42:16.plan for how the economy can recover. Where the funding fits into
:42:17. > :42:24.that. It is not just about European funding. That is just a part of
:42:25. > :42:31.European funding. We need a government in Wales with ambition
:42:32. > :42:40.and courage. We do not have that. We will find out the result in a couple
:42:41. > :42:56.of weeks. But the polls are bad. What does that say about Plaid
:42:57. > :43:03.Cymru? Polls are pollsw. We are concentrating on our campaign. The
:43:04. > :43:11.campaign is being led effectively. We are in good spirits as a party.
:43:12. > :43:14.There was a good lecture given last week and people are contacting us
:43:15. > :43:20.all the time to say that they are voting for us. We will keep
:43:21. > :43:27.campaigning. Thank you for joining us.
:43:28. > :43:32.So, the countdown to the election is under way. Here are all the numbers
:43:33. > :43:36.you need to know. There are four Welsh seats up for
:43:37. > :43:40.grabs in the European Parliament. Here, and across the rest of the UK,
:43:41. > :43:43.voting will take place on the 22nd of May. That is a week next
:43:44. > :43:47.Thursday. But we will not know who has won until the Sunday evening.
:43:48. > :43:51.That is because voting has to be finished across the whole of the EU
:43:52. > :43:55.before any results can be declared. In a polling booth, there is one
:43:56. > :43:59.vote for your party of choice. The four Welsh seats will be distributed
:44:00. > :44:03.based on the number of votes cast. The parties have already decided who
:44:04. > :44:06.will be elected if they win one, two, or more seats. The MEPs will
:44:07. > :44:10.represent Wales in the parliament for the next five years and help to
:44:11. > :44:12.decide and oversee the EU's 135.5 billion Euro budget. About
:44:13. > :44:31.two-thirds of that budget goes on farming subsidies and aid for poorer
:44:32. > :44:34.regions, including Wales. Our MEPs draw up laws in areas like consumer
:44:35. > :44:41.policy, environment, culture, and public health.
:44:42. > :44:44.UKIP holds one of the four Welsh seats in the European parliament and
:44:45. > :45:02.the candidate who hopes to keep it is Nathan Gill. I cannot help but
:45:03. > :45:09.notice that on your Twitter, your name is nathangillMEP. I take it
:45:10. > :45:14.from that that you think you are home and dry. It is to stop people
:45:15. > :45:22.sending illegal tweets from my account. Why do you want to be a
:45:23. > :45:28.MEPs if you think that the parliament is such a problem. I did
:45:29. > :45:36.not think I would ever be involved in politics. It was the last thing
:45:37. > :45:45.on my mind. Being a MEPs was not on my plan of things to do. -- MEP.
:45:46. > :45:50.People need to vote on the European union. If you are against the
:45:51. > :45:55.European Union and all the money that we send their and the crazy
:45:56. > :46:02.laws and the loss of sovereignty there are only two Mac options. You
:46:03. > :46:08.can vote for UKIP or one of the other parties that are for Europe.
:46:09. > :46:15.We are the only opposition to the European project. We are the only
:46:16. > :46:21.people to find out what is happening and bring the information back. It
:46:22. > :46:27.is weird being in opposition to the institution. I cannot think of many
:46:28. > :46:31.people who want to be in Westminster and want to abolish Parliament. That
:46:32. > :46:37.is because Westminster has worked well for us. Now one was given an
:46:38. > :46:44.opportunity to vote on whether they wanted to be part of a political
:46:45. > :46:50.union with Europe. But the other parties are offering that now. Plaid
:46:51. > :46:55.Cymru said they are relaxed about as referendum. You have served your
:46:56. > :47:03.practice? No one believes David Cameron. He offered it in the past
:47:04. > :47:09.and promised that he would give this a referendum on the U. Where is it?
:47:10. > :47:16.She has been in government for years. It is not happening. Are you
:47:17. > :47:23.in this to make sure that the Conservatives are honest? No. We are
:47:24. > :47:28.a party in our own right. We want what is best for the British people.
:47:29. > :47:32.We know that taking all those laws that are made in Brussels by
:47:33. > :47:50.unelected bureaucrats and bringing those back to Britain where our MPs
:47:51. > :48:04.are accountable. MEPs in Brussels do nothing. Jill Evans has been an MEP
:48:05. > :48:10.for 15 years. What laws has she moved through the parliament? She
:48:11. > :48:14.cannot. She said that Wales has benefited from EU funding. Under
:48:15. > :48:19.UKIP we would never have had that investment. It is not rocket
:48:20. > :48:31.science. There is no such thing as EU money. It is our money that has
:48:32. > :48:41.gone to Brussels. They have taken a percentage. But the EU has decided
:48:42. > :48:50.to spend that money... But how affective has that been? But is that
:48:51. > :48:59.not a problem with the the way the money is being spent in Wales? The
:49:00. > :49:08.opinion polls show that we are likely to get people elected. You
:49:09. > :49:13.are happy to see the money that has come from the European Union to
:49:14. > :49:21.Wales. -- you would be happy to not see that money come to Wales. Why
:49:22. > :49:29.does the money have to go to Brussels before it gets to Wales? We
:49:30. > :49:35.have two match funding. Happy people really benefited from that money? If
:49:36. > :49:50.they have, why are they more against Europe? But are more Eurosceptic?
:49:51. > :50:00.Traditionally we have managed to get many conservative voters. I have
:50:01. > :50:05.been over Wales and the people who are cocking to us in the streets and
:50:06. > :50:13.shaking our hands are saying they are voting for us. Labour voters,
:50:14. > :50:19.Plaid Cymru voters, people who have never voted before. We have spoken
:50:20. > :50:27.to people who do not know how to get their name on the electoral roll. It
:50:28. > :50:32.is amazing. We are getting people from across the political spectrum.
:50:33. > :50:40.In the last election, you got 13% of the boat. That is a slight increase
:50:41. > :50:45.on the previous election. But your seat against you because there was a
:50:46. > :50:51.collapsed in the Labour vote. Are you still in a situation where your
:50:52. > :50:58.fortunes are dependent on other parties? Not Apple. I think the
:50:59. > :51:05.debate that Nigel Farage had with Nick Clegg gave us a boost. People
:51:06. > :51:12.became aware of the election. There is not much information in the
:51:13. > :51:17.public domain. Many people we have spoken to have not received anything
:51:18. > :51:20.from other political parties. We have gone into this with the purpose
:51:21. > :51:30.of winning the election here in Wales. Do you think that you can?
:51:31. > :51:37.Yes. We just need people to go and vote. They need to vote on the EU
:51:38. > :51:43.not Westminster. The need to vote on whether they want to be part of this
:51:44. > :51:50.political union. Do you want unelected bureaucrats making your
:51:51. > :52:05.laws for you? But you are a single issue party, aren't you? Yes. Is
:52:06. > :52:11.that because you do not want people to look at your other policies? No.
:52:12. > :52:20.We will have a national conference. You are welcome to come. What is the
:52:21. > :52:29.policy on the assembly? I will clear it up as I have on other shows. We
:52:30. > :52:41.believe in referendum. If the people have decided and they have said in
:52:42. > :52:49.two Mac elections, it would be hypocritical of us as a party. We
:52:50. > :52:57.support what the people want. Thank you.
:52:58. > :53:01.You can get the full list of candidates standing for election in
:53:02. > :53:04.Wales by going online - the address is on the screen now. Next week we
:53:05. > :53:06.will hear from the lead candidates from Labour and the
:53:07. > :53:18.the website now. Now it is back to you, Andrew.
:53:19. > :53:27.Welcome back, let's go straight to our panel. What did you make of Mr
:53:28. > :53:30.Alexander's defence of the Labour party election broadcast? It is
:53:31. > :53:33.difficult for them because they started by saying they were not
:53:34. > :53:39.going to do negative campaigning and they have thrown that away for an
:53:40. > :53:47.advert which is funny but crude in the class war sense. He didn't look
:53:48. > :53:53.thrilled to be defending it. There is a page in Tony Blair's memoirs
:53:54. > :53:56.talking about negative campaigning, and he says that anything too
:53:57. > :54:08.extreme turns off the average voter so his line of attack on Hague was
:54:09. > :54:13.funny jokes but... I think this failed the Blair test, it was too
:54:14. > :54:20.vicious. If your strategy is to shore up your car vote, that advert
:54:21. > :54:26.was genius. If your strategy is to reach out to a broader number of
:54:27. > :54:30.voters, Middle Britain, then that advert was a complete disaster. It
:54:31. > :54:34.looks like there is a lot of negativity and smears all round in
:54:35. > :54:52.the next year. That definitely looks the way we are going. They will be
:54:53. > :55:04.essentially trying to re-run by -- the American election. I am slightly
:55:05. > :55:09.puzzled why we cannot have our own election gurus who live here and
:55:10. > :55:16.understand the country. I should point out that the ?450 extra VAT
:55:17. > :55:22.that was claimed in that Labour poster, both Ed Balls and the Labour
:55:23. > :55:28.Treasury team have said that is ?450 per year. Nonsense the VAT rise, one
:55:29. > :55:32.year. I should also point out that Nigel Farage said to Norman Smith,
:55:33. > :55:39.the BBC is always reliable Norman Smith that if you run in Newark and
:55:40. > :55:44.lost the bubble would burst. I should also point out that although
:55:45. > :55:49.a number of the tax rises I mentioned on council tax, minimum
:55:50. > :55:54.wage tax and some other things that UKIP wants to cuts, a couple of
:55:55. > :56:00.these are in the local manifesto but several are not. They are on the
:56:01. > :56:07.UKIP website, which is still current and dated 2014. We like to make sure
:56:08. > :56:12.we are absolutely right. Let's talk about Nick Clegg and Michael Gove
:56:13. > :56:20.and the latest spat. Let me show you this headline in the Observer this
:56:21. > :56:32.morning. From both the Independent, he called him a zealot, lunatic is
:56:33. > :56:37.of -- another word. Do we take this seriously? It hinges on this
:56:38. > :56:41.question of what counts as an area of need in education. The Lib Dems
:56:42. > :56:46.say an area of need is one where there are not enough school places
:56:47. > :56:50.to meet local demand. He says it can also be a place where there are
:56:51. > :57:02.surplus places but that is for a reason. Local places don't trust
:57:03. > :57:08.those schools to do a good job for their kids. It surprises me because
:57:09. > :57:11.there isn't a yawning distance between David Laws and Michael Gove.
:57:12. > :57:17.David Laws has found himself between a rock and a hard place because I
:57:18. > :57:21.asked -- as I understand it most Lib Dems don't like the free schools but
:57:22. > :57:28.Mr laws was quite sympathetic to it and he is now having to this respect
:57:29. > :57:32.it. When they asked people who are the most hated politicians in a poll
:57:33. > :57:48.were this week, Michael Gove is off the charts, far above David Cameron
:57:49. > :57:51.or George Osborne. This is tit-for-tat war. The Liberal
:57:52. > :57:55.Democrats believe Michael Gove had a hand in leaking the document that
:57:56. > :57:59.showed Nick Clegg was opposing the tougher Chris Grayling position on
:58:00. > :58:04.knife crime. They are saying there were Cabinet ministers who never
:58:05. > :58:09.usually attend the sub Cabinet meeting, they turned up and the
:58:10. > :58:13.document is leaked so what we are getting is tit for tat on that. It
:58:14. > :58:18.is inevitable but it is not good for either side of the Coalition. Voters
:58:19. > :58:23.will look at it and say it is politics of the playground. I read
:58:24. > :58:34.in the Mail on Sunday this morning that some Tory insiders are accusing
:58:35. > :58:38.Lib Dems of spreading rumours about the camera in marriage. The
:58:39. > :58:52.rebuttals of education story is that the free school meals is sucking
:58:53. > :58:58.money away. I always thought they would work together without fuss and
:58:59. > :59:03.yet it has been more the source of disagreement then I would have
:59:04. > :59:08.expected a couple of years ago. Is it serious? It is serious obviously,
:59:09. > :59:13.using that language, but is it fatal for the Coalition? I think it is a
:59:14. > :59:18.road bump because I don't think anybody wants to dissolve the
:59:19. > :59:22.Coalition. It is a challenge for Labour because where do they stand
:59:23. > :59:26.on the free schools? They invented the Academy programme so it is
:59:27. > :59:29.difficult for them to take a hands-off approach at this stage.
:59:30. > :59:32.There was a danger for Michael Gove that he looks ideological but the
:59:33. > :59:36.danger for the Liberal Democrats is that they are breaking the rules for
:59:37. > :59:39.the Coalition they said that they wouldn't break which is that they
:59:40. > :59:48.looked like opposition in government. Is Michael Gove's
:59:49. > :59:55.position safe? Very safe. If he moves in a reshuffle that will be to
:59:56. > :59:58.a a job. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC
:59:59. > :00:02.Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. I'll be back here on BBC
:00:03. > :00:03.One at 11am next week. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:00:04. > :00:10.Politics.