:00:37. > :00:42.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:43. > :00:46.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:47. > :00:52.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:53. > :00:56.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.
:00:57. > :01:00.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:01. > :01:03.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:04. > :01:13.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:14. > :01:15.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:16. > :01:20.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:21. > :01:24.Later in the programme: success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:25. > :01:27.We hear from Peter Hain about his decision to stand down
:01:28. > :01:34.as the MP for Neath and his views on 15 years of devolution.
:01:35. > :01:42.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:43. > :01:45.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:46. > :01:48.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:49. > :01:50.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:51. > :01:55.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:56. > :01:58.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:01:59. > :02:02.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:03. > :02:04.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:05. > :02:11.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:12. > :02:15.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,
:02:16. > :02:18.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:19. > :02:24.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:25. > :02:28.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:29. > :02:32.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:33. > :02:33.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:34. > :02:36."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:37. > :02:43.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:44. > :02:50.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:51. > :02:53.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:54. > :02:58.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,
:02:59. > :03:04.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:05. > :03:06.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:07. > :03:09.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:10. > :03:11.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:12. > :03:17.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:18. > :03:23.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's
:03:24. > :03:42.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:43. > :03:52.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:53. > :03:59.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:00. > :04:06.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:07. > :04:12.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:13. > :04:22.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:23. > :04:25.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:26. > :04:31.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:32. > :04:37.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:38. > :04:42.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:43. > :04:48.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:49. > :04:53.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:54. > :04:58.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:04:59. > :05:03.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:04. > :05:09.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:10. > :05:15.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:16. > :05:21.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:22. > :05:25.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:26. > :05:30.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:31. > :05:35.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:36. > :05:38.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:39. > :05:44.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:45. > :05:49.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:50. > :05:55.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:56. > :06:03.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:04. > :06:12.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:13. > :06:17.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:18. > :06:24.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:25. > :06:28.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:29. > :06:34.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:35. > :06:39.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:40. > :06:43.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:44. > :06:49.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:50. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:56.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:57. > :07:02.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:03. > :07:07.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:08. > :07:12.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed
:07:13. > :07:19.those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:20. > :07:23.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:24. > :07:26.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011
:07:27. > :07:28.when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists
:07:29. > :07:44.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:45. > :07:50.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:51. > :07:53.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:54. > :08:03.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:04. > :08:08.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:09. > :08:11.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:12. > :08:14.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:15. > :08:21.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:22. > :08:25.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:26. > :08:29.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:30. > :08:34.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:35. > :08:38.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:39. > :08:43.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:44. > :08:47.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:48. > :08:52.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:53. > :09:02.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:03. > :09:06.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:07. > :09:11.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:12. > :09:15.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:16. > :09:20.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:21. > :09:24.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:25. > :09:31.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:32. > :09:36.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:37. > :09:41.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:42. > :09:48.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:49. > :09:54.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.
:09:55. > :09:58.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:09:59. > :10:02.equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of
:10:03. > :10:07.gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be
:10:08. > :10:13.tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We
:10:14. > :10:19.do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years
:10:20. > :10:24.ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like
:10:25. > :10:30.tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do
:10:31. > :10:35.think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to
:10:36. > :10:40.inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to
:10:41. > :10:47.be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy
:10:48. > :10:51.sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning
:10:52. > :10:54.as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of
:10:55. > :10:58.Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools
:10:59. > :11:01.were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They
:11:02. > :11:07.were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an
:11:08. > :11:10.academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within
:11:11. > :11:14.Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school
:11:15. > :11:23.standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we
:11:24. > :11:30.get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking
:11:31. > :11:35.to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme
:11:36. > :11:43.which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and
:11:44. > :11:51.fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a
:11:52. > :11:56.desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an
:11:57. > :12:08.increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr
:12:09. > :12:17.Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for
:12:18. > :12:22.gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in
:12:23. > :12:26.since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We
:12:27. > :12:34.note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected
:12:35. > :12:41.head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and
:12:42. > :12:44.what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about
:12:45. > :12:48.fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of
:12:49. > :12:55.schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You
:12:56. > :13:04.mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence
:13:05. > :13:08.for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group
:13:09. > :13:14.dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about
:13:15. > :13:18.schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in
:13:19. > :13:25.Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of
:13:26. > :13:29.multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic
:13:30. > :13:32.education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this
:13:33. > :13:37.morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,
:13:38. > :13:48.the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.
:13:49. > :13:51.In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools
:13:52. > :13:57.and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed
:13:58. > :14:01.this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and
:14:02. > :14:06.this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you
:14:07. > :14:10.fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get
:14:11. > :14:18.together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There
:14:19. > :14:22.are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city
:14:23. > :14:27.council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning
:14:28. > :14:31.have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in
:14:32. > :14:36.schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have
:14:37. > :14:40.a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for
:14:41. > :14:43.four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to
:14:44. > :14:48.account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils
:14:49. > :14:52.in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young
:14:53. > :14:57.people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do
:14:58. > :15:04.you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that
:15:05. > :15:11.Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was
:15:12. > :15:16.building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We
:15:17. > :15:19.have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard
:15:20. > :15:24.Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate
:15:25. > :15:28.about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,
:15:29. > :15:36.the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do
:15:37. > :15:38.to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must
:15:39. > :15:47.with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on
:15:48. > :15:50.stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the
:15:51. > :15:53.most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -
:15:54. > :15:56.from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described
:15:57. > :16:03.Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the
:16:04. > :16:06.problems of the next five years'. But with the German Chancellor
:16:07. > :16:09.Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that
:16:10. > :16:12.Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7
:16:13. > :16:22.summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people
:16:23. > :16:26.running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change
:16:27. > :16:31.and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads
:16:32. > :16:35.of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what
:16:36. > :16:40.I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed
:16:41. > :16:44.in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering
:16:45. > :16:47.that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away
:16:48. > :16:49.from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.
:16:50. > :16:52.We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is
:16:53. > :16:55.a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.
:16:56. > :17:01.He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.
:17:02. > :17:04.And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin
:17:05. > :17:07.Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives
:17:08. > :17:15.and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.
:17:16. > :17:23.The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new
:17:24. > :17:31.Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out
:17:32. > :17:36.gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to
:17:37. > :17:43.have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a
:17:44. > :17:48.high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next
:17:49. > :17:53.three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the
:17:54. > :17:57.president of the European Council after the proposal of the European
:17:58. > :18:02.Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in
:18:03. > :18:10.the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr
:18:11. > :18:14.Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going
:18:15. > :18:22.to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us
:18:23. > :18:27.one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine
:18:28. > :18:33.Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have
:18:34. > :18:40.a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need
:18:41. > :18:45.radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave
:18:46. > :18:50.us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in
:18:51. > :18:54.public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks
:18:55. > :18:59.campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the
:19:00. > :19:02.European Commission. Elmar Brok, since the European voters have sent
:19:03. > :19:06.a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status
:19:07. > :19:12.quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?
:19:13. > :19:23.First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks
:19:24. > :19:29.against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man
:19:30. > :19:35.who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro
:19:36. > :19:38.group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the
:19:39. > :19:42.financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible
:19:43. > :19:47.financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who
:19:48. > :19:52.works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in
:19:53. > :19:57.Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But
:19:58. > :20:01.we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of
:20:02. > :20:05.this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the
:20:06. > :20:09.winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs
:20:10. > :20:14.LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority
:20:15. > :20:21.in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It
:20:22. > :20:28.is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament
:20:29. > :20:32.has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by
:20:33. > :20:33.majority in the light of the European elections after
:20:34. > :20:38.consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a
:20:39. > :20:45.candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a
:20:46. > :20:49.majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the
:20:50. > :20:52.Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.
:20:53. > :20:57.I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European
:20:58. > :21:01.elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the
:21:02. > :21:05.elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats
:21:06. > :21:09.in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking
:21:10. > :21:12.part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the
:21:13. > :21:17.United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German
:21:18. > :21:24.socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a
:21:25. > :21:27.nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with
:21:28. > :21:30.hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a
:21:31. > :21:33.democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to
:21:34. > :21:51.take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if
:21:52. > :21:54.I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of
:21:55. > :22:03.the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to
:22:04. > :22:06.Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives
:22:07. > :22:11.have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they
:22:12. > :22:15.have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form
:22:16. > :22:22.of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr
:22:23. > :22:26.Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU
:22:27. > :22:31.exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we
:22:32. > :22:34.want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious
:22:35. > :22:40.reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to
:22:41. > :22:46.vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,
:22:47. > :22:52.somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We
:22:53. > :22:54.need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the
:22:55. > :22:57.European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of
:22:58. > :23:01.federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in
:23:02. > :23:07.Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to
:23:08. > :23:13.take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the
:23:14. > :23:19.publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.
:23:20. > :23:25.We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If
:23:26. > :23:29.enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in
:23:30. > :23:36.the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,
:23:37. > :23:41.would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected
:23:42. > :23:45.by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the
:23:46. > :23:48.European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted
:23:49. > :23:52.pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist
:23:53. > :24:04.thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe
:24:05. > :24:10.which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not
:24:11. > :24:14.want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state.
:24:15. > :24:18.This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better
:24:19. > :24:22.governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to
:24:23. > :24:27.become better, to change our programme in that question. That
:24:28. > :24:34.should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for
:24:35. > :24:37.that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to
:24:38. > :24:42.be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are
:24:43. > :24:48.matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent
:24:49. > :24:56.candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British
:24:57. > :25:00.commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election
:25:01. > :25:06.-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.
:25:07. > :25:09.Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European
:25:10. > :25:15.They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs
:25:16. > :25:18.and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.
:25:19. > :25:21.What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body
:25:22. > :25:24.which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission
:25:25. > :25:37.This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They
:25:38. > :25:43.didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes.
:25:44. > :25:47.They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once
:25:48. > :26:06.in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,
:26:07. > :26:14.drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they
:26:15. > :26:17.are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the
:26:18. > :26:23.party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and
:26:24. > :26:28.the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting
:26:29. > :26:32.such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election
:26:33. > :26:38.under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was
:26:39. > :26:45.invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.
:26:46. > :26:49.When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most
:26:50. > :26:52.seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated
:26:53. > :27:02.using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --
:27:03. > :27:07.first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and
:27:08. > :27:11.London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,
:27:12. > :27:15.if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant
:27:16. > :27:19.to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to
:27:20. > :27:27.UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would
:27:28. > :27:29.have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by
:27:30. > :27:37.mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to
:27:38. > :27:42.experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of
:27:43. > :27:48.1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This
:27:49. > :27:50.man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and
:27:51. > :27:57.polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat
:27:58. > :28:04.candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards
:28:05. > :28:08.realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little
:28:09. > :28:15.Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do --
:28:16. > :28:23.bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.
:28:24. > :28:30.Mr Sanders got some consolation. In 1998, laws came into rule on
:28:31. > :28:33.so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was
:28:34. > :28:36.established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh
:28:37. > :28:40.floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to
:28:41. > :28:43.voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the
:28:44. > :28:47.conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name
:28:48. > :28:53.of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those
:28:54. > :28:57.registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our
:28:58. > :29:00.opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on
:29:01. > :29:08.the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,
:29:09. > :29:12.were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need
:29:13. > :29:17.to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An
:29:18. > :29:21.independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved
:29:22. > :29:26.in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the
:29:27. > :29:31.description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word
:29:32. > :29:38.independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in
:29:39. > :29:41.1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again
:29:42. > :29:48.at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the
:29:49. > :29:49.major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking
:29:50. > :29:58.votes of them. Joining me now to discuss
:29:59. > :30:02.this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the
:30:03. > :30:05.South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is
:30:06. > :30:20.the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that
:30:21. > :30:25.were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to
:30:26. > :30:31.tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the
:30:32. > :30:38.breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats
:30:39. > :30:46.that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:47. > :30:49.You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:50. > :30:52.You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those
:30:53. > :30:59.with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there
:31:00. > :31:05.is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people
:31:06. > :31:11.who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,
:31:12. > :31:26.they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.
:31:27. > :31:34.I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And
:31:35. > :31:38.Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent
:31:39. > :31:45.people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of
:31:46. > :31:52.delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people
:31:53. > :31:55.have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the
:31:56. > :32:01.first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them
:32:02. > :32:07.in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it
:32:08. > :32:14.strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the
:32:15. > :32:20.electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to
:32:21. > :32:24.Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European
:32:25. > :32:31.Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did
:32:32. > :32:35.come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the
:32:36. > :32:40.election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy
:32:41. > :32:44.with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got
:32:45. > :32:51.significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.
:32:52. > :32:59.Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well
:33:00. > :33:07.represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?
:33:08. > :33:21.Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.
:33:22. > :33:24.I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had
:33:25. > :33:29.getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they
:33:30. > :33:34.voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.
:33:35. > :33:42.What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would
:33:43. > :33:46.agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral
:33:47. > :33:51.Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not
:33:52. > :33:58.confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to
:33:59. > :34:02.agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes
:34:03. > :34:06.and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the
:34:07. > :34:11.south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats
:34:12. > :34:17.into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the
:34:18. > :34:23.system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did
:34:24. > :34:28.not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because
:34:29. > :34:32.you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you
:34:33. > :34:36.have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain
:34:37. > :34:39.about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have
:34:40. > :34:46.complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a
:34:47. > :34:53.proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%,
:34:54. > :34:57.we should be looking at having 30, 40 seats in the national
:34:58. > :35:00.legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for
:35:01. > :35:05.national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused
:35:06. > :35:11.some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were
:35:12. > :35:15.very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the
:35:16. > :35:21.authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.
:35:22. > :35:29.That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by
:35:30. > :35:37.demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any
:35:38. > :35:44.legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal
:35:45. > :35:50.advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly
:35:51. > :35:55.does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the
:35:56. > :36:02.morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,
:36:03. > :36:10.there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There
:36:11. > :36:15.needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,
:36:16. > :36:19.one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous
:36:20. > :36:26.and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing
:36:27. > :36:30.going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in
:36:31. > :36:33.Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.
:36:34. > :36:40.It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go
:36:41. > :36:45.back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to
:36:46. > :36:48.the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an
:36:49. > :36:53.authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have
:36:54. > :36:58.the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part
:36:59. > :37:04.of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should
:37:05. > :37:07.there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and
:37:08. > :37:09.the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right
:37:10. > :37:11.to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:12. > :37:16.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:37:17. > :37:30.we'll be discussing extremism Hello,
:37:31. > :37:32.and on the Sunday Politics Wales: Peter Hain tells us why he's
:37:33. > :37:36.standing down as the MP for Neath and he joins former Plaid leader
:37:37. > :37:39.Lord Wigley to look back And was the Queen's Speech the last
:37:40. > :37:45.stand of the Westminster coalition This week, BBC Cymru Wales
:37:46. > :37:54.will be measuring devolution. It's 15 years
:37:55. > :37:56.since the establishment Former Labour Cabinet minister
:37:57. > :38:00.Peter Hain has been I'll be talking to him later
:38:01. > :38:08.about his decision to stand down But first,
:38:09. > :38:12.Bethan Lewis invited Mr Hain and another key figure who campaigned
:38:13. > :38:58.for devolution to relive the drama. It has suddenly change -- certainly
:38:59. > :39:03.changed! The Royal Welsh College of music and drama has had a major
:39:04. > :39:11.face-lift since the night hosted one of the biggest moments in Welsh
:39:12. > :39:18.history. 0.3% of a victory to the yes campaign. Quite incredible, a
:39:19. > :39:28.night of absolute high drama. In 1997, Peter Hain was a office
:39:29. > :39:35.minister. David was also an MP. Were you always confident? No. It was
:39:36. > :39:42.very frustrating because we had learnt the lessons of 1979 and
:39:43. > :39:50.therefore, we had to have self denying. There were times we wanted
:39:51. > :40:01.to campaign. But this was a Labour Party. I was doing a lot of street
:40:02. > :40:08.work, a lot of campaigning. I remember being really worried about
:40:09. > :40:15.the Labour heartland votes, whether they would vote yes or at all. The
:40:16. > :40:18.emotion of that night, I don't think, in political terms, I have
:40:19. > :40:25.experienced anything quite like that. A different stage to the one
:40:26. > :40:29.that hosted the referendum drama but this venue will always be linked as
:40:30. > :40:40.what has or has been seen as a new dawn for Wales. Good morning! And it
:40:41. > :40:43.is a very good morning in Wales. When the Assembly was established
:40:44. > :40:49.less than two years later, to live up to the optimism and excitement so
:40:50. > :40:56.apparent in the early hours of September the 19th, 1997? People had
:40:57. > :41:02.impossible expectations, in some ways, but my answer to the question,
:41:03. > :41:06.how has the Assembly done? Imagine what Wales would have been like
:41:07. > :41:16.without devolution. It would have been the only part of the UK without
:41:17. > :41:22.devolution as a proud nation. The challenges -- challenge is, how do
:41:23. > :41:26.you get away from the 1-party rule? If democracy will work, you have got
:41:27. > :41:32.to have the ability of the electorate making a difference. From
:41:33. > :41:37.a liberal point of view, it's very difficult to keep renewing yourself
:41:38. > :41:41.in government. -- a Labour point of view. The thing that has most
:41:42. > :41:45.disappointed me was the thing I discovered first as a Welsh
:41:46. > :41:52.Minister: I think the Welsh civil service is one of the most can't
:41:53. > :41:58.do, rather than can do, of the entire British civil service. I
:41:59. > :42:02.remember a comment about it very senior civil servant, saying if he
:42:03. > :42:05.had a problem, he would rather make no decision than the wrong
:42:06. > :42:14.decision. That sums it up, doesn't it? A disappointment for me has been
:42:15. > :42:21.the lack of relative progress on Welsh wealth GDP. Whether that's
:42:22. > :42:28.entirely the Assembly's fort is a big question. On the other hand, the
:42:29. > :42:36.highs of having distinctive policies, which are more friendly to
:42:37. > :42:43.people rather than market-driven. I would agree on the comments the
:42:44. > :42:49.economy. The low for me was when Rhodri Morgan decided to do away
:42:50. > :42:56.with the Welsh development agency. Awful party signed up to that! It
:42:57. > :43:04.was great shame that that happened. The plus points: The confidence, a
:43:05. > :43:08.number of policies, most recently, plastic bags, where England has
:43:09. > :43:13.followed Wales, but also the fact we are thinking in terms of Wales and
:43:14. > :43:18.the fact that the people out there would not want to go back to the old
:43:19. > :43:26.model. That is part of the new confidence that has emerged in
:43:27. > :43:31.Wales. Let's make a difference. And having a cutting edge and
:43:32. > :43:48.determination that cutting edge -- second-best is not good enough. It
:43:49. > :43:59.was a very different kind of drama on that evening, wasn't it? We all
:44:00. > :44:04.look a lot younger! There we all are, you and I stand next to each
:44:05. > :44:17.other. It was a pretty ecstatic moment. And then we had a little
:44:18. > :44:28.chat. I think we are something like, this is fantastic but amazing! It is
:44:29. > :44:31.debatable whether the reality matched the dream but for those who
:44:32. > :44:33.were centre stage, there is still great pride in being able to say, I
:44:34. > :44:37.was there. Peter Hain joins from his Neath
:44:38. > :44:49.constituency. You announced you would be standing
:44:50. > :44:53.down at the next election. Why? I was intending to stand and then I
:44:54. > :44:57.had a series of meetings with Ed Miliband and we discussed other
:44:58. > :45:01.things I could do while retaining a strong involvement in politics. I
:45:02. > :45:08.have been in politics all my political life, since I was
:45:09. > :45:17.supporting my parents in the anti-apartheid struggle in
:45:18. > :45:20.Pretoria. I think it is absolutely vital for our country that we get
:45:21. > :45:26.rid of this government and start getting a government that invests in
:45:27. > :45:33.growth and jobs, not austerity. You make it sound as if Mr Miller band
:45:34. > :45:39.has another job in mind for you. I am not talking about the future.
:45:40. > :45:45.That can take care of itself. I am absolutely determined to stay active
:45:46. > :45:49.in politics and to ensure we win as many MPs as we can at the next
:45:50. > :45:52.election, not for me, not for Labour, but for the country and
:45:53. > :46:02.people who I think I been devastated by this covenant -- current
:46:03. > :46:08.government's politics. If you're not talking about the future, I take it
:46:09. > :46:12.you do not have a success in mind. Certainly not. That's a matter for
:46:13. > :46:18.the party. One of the things I thought about when I had this
:46:19. > :46:24.difficult change, after discussing with Ed, one of the things I thought
:46:25. > :46:31.about was, I will not stand down late and find the national party in
:46:32. > :46:36.London determining the Meath party. I live here and will stay living
:46:37. > :46:43.here and therefore, I have given the party a long time to choose the
:46:44. > :46:47.person that they think can best carry the Labour banner forward. Did
:46:48. > :46:53.you give any thought about whether it should be an all women short
:46:54. > :47:00.list? That again is a matter for the party, not for me. MPs shouldn't
:47:01. > :47:05.interfere in the succession arrangements. I strongly believe
:47:06. > :47:09.Wales needs more women representing us in Parliament. I have supported
:47:10. > :47:16.all women short lists in the past. We have got a situation where
:47:17. > :47:25.neighbouring constituencies have had all women short lists. This is for
:47:26. > :47:40.the national party to decide. What matters is the party members in
:47:41. > :47:44.Meath will make the choice. I wonder how you would respond to you would
:47:45. > :47:47.respond to your colleagues saying that the party should be having as
:47:48. > :47:53.many all women short lists as possible. I understand that and she
:47:54. > :48:01.deserves credit for having pioneered this work in Wales. But this is not
:48:02. > :48:05.a matter for me. I want to see more women in Parliament but whether my
:48:06. > :48:11.constituency has an open short list or whether it has got an all women
:48:12. > :48:30.short list is not a matter for me. That's a matter for the National
:48:31. > :48:34.party to decide. Whoever the candidate is, I have no doubt you
:48:35. > :48:39.will be out supporting them in the general election. How confident are
:48:40. > :48:45.you Labour can win the election with Ed Miliband and the helm? I am very
:48:46. > :48:54.confident label will be the biggest party in the next Parliament.
:48:55. > :49:04.Whether we can win an outright majority, it's extremely difficult
:49:05. > :49:08.to tell. 50 years ago, Labour and the Conservatives dominated. That's
:49:09. > :49:14.no longer the case. Is that the reason why you are not further ahead
:49:15. > :49:19.in the polls? A lot of the reason, yes. There is a big anti-politics
:49:20. > :49:28.movement at the moment. I am very close to the grassroots. There is a
:49:29. > :49:31.very anti-politics situation presently and I think Ed Miliband is
:49:32. > :49:35.the person who understands that best because he is trying to change the
:49:36. > :49:45.party from the traditional party machine, like a has-been, into a
:49:46. > :49:50.movement rooted in the community. Isn't that a bit of a convenient way
:49:51. > :49:54.of saying that the reason why we're not doing better is not our fault.
:49:55. > :50:00.It's not our policy is not our fault. It's not our policies that?
:50:01. > :50:07.It's very hard, when you have lost so badly, as we did in 2010, two
:50:08. > :50:15.then bounce back into the massive lead that, for example, Tony Blair
:50:16. > :50:20.enjoyed. No party will win a landslide. I do not think the Tories
:50:21. > :50:23.can win the next election. We are very well placed to be the biggest
:50:24. > :50:29.party and we will fight to get a majority but we are in new political
:50:30. > :50:36.to rain. Voters are very disillusioned with politicians of
:50:37. > :50:43.all stripes. -- new political terrain. Different parties also make
:50:44. > :50:47.different choices. Labour stands for Justice, equality, democracy, human
:50:48. > :50:53.rights and freedom. I will continue to fight for those values. I see
:50:54. > :50:58.around me people been badly hit by this government's policies and that
:50:59. > :50:59.is why I want to fight so hard for Labour to win across Wales and
:51:00. > :51:04.Britain next time. The Westminster coalition's last
:51:05. > :51:07.stand or a bold programme to make a Pensioners will have more freedom to
:51:08. > :51:11.spend their savings, more powers for the Welsh Government
:51:12. > :51:14.are on track and misbehaving MPs Some of the notable changes
:51:15. > :51:21.on the way. But politicians are divided over
:51:22. > :51:36.Wendesday's Queen's Speech, the last There is nothing very controversial
:51:37. > :51:44.and there. The only thing pretty controversial is the rush for gas,
:51:45. > :51:51.which will be pretty controversial, and we would be seeking to amend
:51:52. > :51:57.that to ensure our country has control over its own resources and
:51:58. > :52:01.any resulting revenue goes to the Welsh government rather than the
:52:02. > :52:10.Treasury. This speech was concluding the pattern we wanted to reset the
:52:11. > :52:16.economy and make sure the recovery was being felt right across the
:52:17. > :52:24.country. That's why the ?10,500 income tax free zone comes into
:52:25. > :52:28.place next year, that's why we are doing things like resetting the
:52:29. > :52:32.pensions agenda, making sure we can help small businesses to grow and
:52:33. > :52:36.develop. We want to make sure people feel that the beginnings of this
:52:37. > :52:37.recovery are spread out, right across the country.
:52:38. > :52:41.I'm joined now by Alun Cairns, the Conservative MP for the Vale
:52:42. > :52:49.of Glamorgan, and Wayne David, the Labour MP for Caerphilly.
:52:50. > :53:01.This speech included legislation on plastic bags and he rose. Is there a
:53:02. > :53:06.unifying theme here? This speech is extremely important. It is about
:53:07. > :53:14.securing the recovery and continuing the long-term economic plan. There
:53:15. > :53:16.is an infrastructure bill, is small-business bill, a childcare
:53:17. > :53:23.bill in order to free up people to get back into work, to support
:53:24. > :53:27.people. We continue to reduce taxes for the lowest earners so that it
:53:28. > :53:34.will make benefits less friendly for those people because going into work
:53:35. > :53:44.is more friendly. People have said it is already in place. Absolutely
:53:45. > :53:47.not. The infrastructure bill, the childcare bill, the pensions Bill is
:53:48. > :53:53.about continuing the long-term economic plan so that the recovery
:53:54. > :53:57.we have managed to secure is about ensuring that continues over the
:53:58. > :54:01.longer term. The pensions Bill is a pretty meaty piece of legislation,
:54:02. > :54:11.so you can't really accuse the government of having run out of
:54:12. > :54:18.words. That is the exception. This country, people have a standard of
:54:19. > :54:21.living and crisis. They are concerned about immigration and the
:54:22. > :54:27.housing situation. All these major issues are not being addressed by
:54:28. > :54:34.the Queen's bill. It seems to me that what we have is, as Dennis
:54:35. > :54:41.Skinner said, the coalition's last stand. This government is running
:54:42. > :54:48.out of ideas. Surely, one of the mistakes of the last leg -- Labour
:54:49. > :54:55.government was that you legislated to much. I'd disagree. This
:54:56. > :55:02.government is not even attempting to tackle problems. They are standing
:55:03. > :55:09.to one side and saying, very sorry, the coalition is there but we cannot
:55:10. > :55:15.agree. That is nonsense! If we look at the last two speeches under the
:55:16. > :55:20.Labour administration, there were fewer bills than this government. It
:55:21. > :55:25.is not about passing legislation for the sake of it. It's about securing
:55:26. > :55:33.that long-term economic plan, reducing unemployment. The platelet
:55:34. > :55:41.count is now down to 4% in my constituency. -- claimant count. Is
:55:42. > :55:46.there something in common here, in that ministers and Conservative MPs
:55:47. > :55:50.have got their eyes on the next election and beyond, rather than on
:55:51. > :55:58.concentrating on the job at hand? This is about party discipline. That
:55:59. > :56:02.broke down. The Prime Minister has intervened, the Secretary of State
:56:03. > :56:07.for education has apologised and the Home Secretary's special adviser has
:56:08. > :56:14.gone. That demonstrate strong leadership from a strong Prime
:56:15. > :56:17.Minister. It's a Conservative MP. Do you get Cabinet ministers coming to
:56:18. > :56:26.have a quiet word with you? Absolutely not. The example, Theresa
:56:27. > :56:37.May extended the licensing laws after they said no. The big picture
:56:38. > :56:44.is the economy. This is from the IMF: We acknowledge we underestimate
:56:45. > :56:50.growth. This is the big problem for you. The economy is on the right
:56:51. > :56:54.track. It is doing better than it is doing better than a a painfully slow
:56:55. > :57:04.recovery and what concerns me is that we are having a recovery, but
:57:05. > :57:08.the recovery is not helping the ordinary people of this country. We
:57:09. > :57:14.are seeing the rich getting richer and ordinary people are not seeing
:57:15. > :57:33.significant improvements in their standard of living. The tax cuts are
:57:34. > :57:36.helping the lowest of earners. We have the fastest-growing economy in
:57:37. > :57:45.the developed world and we should be celebrating that. If there is a cost
:57:46. > :57:54.of living crisis, this is how to celebrate it. We are only halfway
:57:55. > :58:01.through that programme. We are seeing the world of the nation going
:58:02. > :58:10.to the rich. David Cameron said he would leave the -- leave the
:58:11. > :58:16.greenest government ever. We have got to be clear what the
:58:17. > :58:23.infrastructure bill does. Making it easier for companies to explore for
:58:24. > :58:28.gas. This extends the same rights for shale gas extraction as it does
:58:29. > :58:32.to pipes that have already been laid underground. What is fundamental is
:58:33. > :58:44.that it has two conform to planning requirements. Planning is a devolved
:58:45. > :58:48.matter. In the Vale of Glamorgan, because of genuine reasons, the
:58:49. > :58:54.Labour run Welsh government overawed planning issues. It is about
:58:55. > :58:57.controlling it through the planning system. In England, the planning
:58:58. > :59:04.system is far more robust and here in Wales, the Welsh government have
:59:05. > :59:13.used its mighty arms to overrule this. The UK government is making it
:59:14. > :59:18.easier for companies to fracture. It is controlled through the planning
:59:19. > :59:22.mechanism which is devolved. When the Labour administration overawed
:59:23. > :59:26.those objections, it is concerning and I am alarmed about that because
:59:27. > :59:32.if we had the same planning regime in England, which will control gas
:59:33. > :59:37.extraction, the local community would be in a stronger position to
:59:38. > :59:49.stop it and rejected. Tricky one for Labour as well. Was -- what is its
:59:50. > :00:01.position? I don't think you should make party political points. Do you
:00:02. > :00:05.want more of it to happen? It's important to recognise our
:00:06. > :00:09.legitimate concerns to ensure there is a vigorous planning process
:00:10. > :00:11.whether devolved or not, and also to make sure we take into account the
:00:12. > :00:14.energy needs of the country. Don't forget to follow our look
:00:15. > :00:19.at the impact of devolved politics in our Measuring Devolution week
:00:20. > :00:22.across all BBC Cymru Wales outlets. For the meantime, though,
:00:23. > :00:24.it's back now to Andrew. Is enough being done to
:00:25. > :00:39.tackle extremism in schools? Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker,
:00:40. > :01:08.will make we are joined by the founder of the
:01:09. > :01:12.Quilliam Association. If you read the Sunday Telegraph this morning,
:01:13. > :01:15.there is a real problem. If you read the Observer, there is not much of a
:01:16. > :01:34.problem. What is the situation in your view in Birmingham? Allegations
:01:35. > :01:39.are seen to be -- if music was not being taught as it should be.
:01:40. > :01:43.Instead of the rating the national holidays here during the Christmas
:01:44. > :01:46.period, children were sent off instead on religious pilgrimage to
:01:47. > :01:54.Mecca, then I think something is going on. From my knowledge, I know
:01:55. > :02:02.about some of the strategies to influence. These strategies are
:02:03. > :02:05.known as gradualism. The idea, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is
:02:06. > :02:15.to join the institutions of society and influence from within -- from
:02:16. > :02:19.within. It is a gradual approach to Islamicisation society. We have seen
:02:20. > :02:26.that happening in other areas, such as the decision by the Law Society
:02:27. > :02:31.to call it shy and issue it out as guidance for solicitors. They are
:02:32. > :02:40.saying this means that women inherit half of what men
:02:41. > :02:40.saying this means that women inherit and adopted children do not get any
:02:41. > :02:41.inheritance. Apostates do not get any inheritance. These are
:02:42. > :02:47.guidelines being issued by the Law Society by Islamic. It is a medieval
:02:48. > :02:54.take on Islam. That is what is meant. We see the same names popping
:02:55. > :03:02.up again and again in different situations in Birmingham. Is it a
:03:03. > :03:04.planned infiltration? In my profession of you and
:03:05. > :03:07.planned infiltration? In my profession of you having spent 13
:03:08. > :03:08.years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been
:03:09. > :03:20.involved Islamist organisation, having been
:03:21. > :03:21.and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been
:03:22. > :03:24.certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this
:03:25. > :03:27.country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to
:03:28. > :03:32.bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like
:03:33. > :03:36.segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these
:03:37. > :03:43.things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they
:03:44. > :03:49.were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state
:03:50. > :03:55.Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were
:03:56. > :04:00.state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally
:04:01. > :04:07.in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of
:04:08. > :04:12.faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think
:04:13. > :04:16.these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider
:04:17. > :04:21.communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very
:04:22. > :04:25.important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already
:04:26. > :04:32.had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a
:04:33. > :04:38.serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the
:04:39. > :04:41.segregation of children into intensely populated areas where
:04:42. > :04:46.everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading
:04:47. > :04:50.children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular
:04:51. > :04:54.school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become
:04:55. > :04:58.like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools
:04:59. > :05:03.to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite
:05:04. > :05:08.hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith
:05:09. > :05:12.schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma
:05:13. > :05:17.being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma
:05:18. > :05:21.being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it
:05:22. > :05:25.is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the
:05:26. > :05:29.whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the
:05:30. > :05:44.business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The
:05:45. > :05:49.overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is
:05:50. > :05:52.that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some
:05:53. > :05:56.schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned
:05:57. > :06:02.in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been
:06:03. > :06:06.entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum
:06:07. > :06:09.of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing
:06:10. > :06:14.it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided
:06:15. > :06:18.ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took
:06:19. > :06:23.on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of
:06:24. > :06:27.Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers
:06:28. > :06:34.in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than
:06:35. > :06:38.they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that
:06:39. > :06:42.our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not
:06:43. > :06:47.instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also
:06:48. > :06:51.that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board
:06:52. > :06:55.in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the
:06:56. > :06:58.former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full
:06:59. > :07:04.Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being
:07:05. > :07:09.treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on
:07:10. > :07:13.empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what
:07:14. > :07:17.Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is
:07:18. > :07:19.undermined the work of local education authorities. They think
:07:20. > :07:27.they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school
:07:28. > :07:35.in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local
:07:36. > :07:39.education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,
:07:40. > :07:44.they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.
:07:45. > :07:49.Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.
:07:50. > :07:53.There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt
:07:54. > :07:56.was trying to answer that point. By tapping it cannot all have gone pear
:07:57. > :08:07.shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it
:08:08. > :08:10.cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It
:08:11. > :08:15.will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow
:08:16. > :08:19.or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider
:08:20. > :08:28.questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two
:08:29. > :08:33.points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other
:08:34. > :08:36.institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea
:08:37. > :08:46.of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.
:08:47. > :08:53.-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect
:08:54. > :08:59.racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and
:09:00. > :09:02.Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and
:09:03. > :09:07.robust leap by civilian society. It was settled by the Prime Minister
:09:08. > :09:16.and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I
:09:17. > :09:24.think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates
:09:25. > :09:44.official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will
:09:45. > :09:48.Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide
:09:49. > :09:53.whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission
:09:54. > :09:56.president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for
:09:57. > :09:59.Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on
:10:00. > :10:08.last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too
:10:09. > :10:14.late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left
:10:15. > :10:20.with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice
:10:21. > :10:27.with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and
:10:28. > :10:31.Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest
:10:32. > :10:42.of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within
:10:43. > :10:47.Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron
:10:48. > :10:50.getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go
:10:51. > :10:54.to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is
:10:55. > :10:58.the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of
:10:59. > :11:02.symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the
:11:03. > :11:06.Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the
:11:07. > :11:10.Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response
:11:11. > :11:19.to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty
:11:20. > :11:22.that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say
:11:23. > :11:27.the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.
:11:28. > :11:31.He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the
:11:32. > :11:44.elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.
:11:45. > :11:58.This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing
:11:59. > :12:09.really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so
:12:10. > :12:16.cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own
:12:17. > :12:23.pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is
:12:24. > :12:28.to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least
:12:29. > :12:31.I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats
:12:32. > :12:36.challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the
:12:37. > :12:40.Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.
:12:41. > :12:45.That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been
:12:46. > :12:51.there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.
:12:52. > :12:56.Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.
:12:57. > :12:59.Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The
:13:00. > :13:06.overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20
:13:07. > :13:13.seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle
:13:14. > :13:20.on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if
:13:21. > :13:26.Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of
:13:27. > :13:29.the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left
:13:30. > :13:43.of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,
:13:44. > :13:50.you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is
:13:51. > :14:18.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing
:14:19. > :14:20.about being a foster parent?