:00:38. > :00:48.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:49. > :00:51.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:52. > :00:55.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:56. > :00:57.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:58. > :01:14.Wales' most high-profile Islamic politician on the role of parents,
:01:15. > :01:28.the police and preachers in countering radicalisation.
:01:29. > :01:31.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:32. > :01:42.panel in the business Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:43. > :01:45.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:46. > :01:48.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence.
:01:49. > :01:50.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:51. > :01:52.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:53. > :01:55.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:56. > :01:59.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:00. > :02:06.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:07. > :02:09.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:10. > :02:24.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:25. > :02:27.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:28. > :02:30.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:31. > :02:33.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:34. > :02:37.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington.
:02:38. > :02:44.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:45. > :02:47.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:48. > :02:52.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:53. > :02:58.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:59. > :03:02.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:03. > :03:10.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:11. > :03:19.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:20. > :03:22.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:23. > :03:24.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:25. > :03:27.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:28. > :03:33.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:34. > :03:37.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:38. > :03:44.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:45. > :03:50.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:51. > :03:54.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:55. > :04:02.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new.
:04:03. > :04:12.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:13. > :04:18.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:19. > :04:20.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:21. > :04:26.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:27. > :04:29.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:30. > :04:34.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:35. > :04:38.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:39. > :04:42.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:43. > :04:48.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:49. > :04:53.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:54. > :04:57.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:58. > :05:01.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:02. > :05:05.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:06. > :05:10.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:11. > :05:23.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:24. > :05:27.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:28. > :05:30.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:31. > :05:34.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:35. > :05:38.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:39. > :05:40.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:41. > :05:44.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:45. > :05:48.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:49. > :05:53.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:54. > :05:59.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:00. > :06:03.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:04. > :06:12.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:13. > :06:24.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:25. > :06:29.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:30. > :06:32.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:33. > :06:36.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:37. > :06:40.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:41. > :06:44.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:45. > :06:46.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:47. > :06:51.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:52. > :06:53.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:54. > :07:02.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:03. > :07:05.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:06. > :07:11.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:12. > :07:17.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:18. > :07:21.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:22. > :07:29.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:30. > :07:33.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:34. > :07:37.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:38. > :07:40.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:41. > :07:46.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:47. > :07:51.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:52. > :07:55.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:56. > :08:02.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:03. > :08:09.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:10. > :08:15.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:16. > :08:20.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:21. > :08:25.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:26. > :08:28.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:29. > :08:38.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:39. > :08:42.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest, but
:08:43. > :08:46.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:47. > :08:51.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:52. > :08:56.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:57. > :08:58.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:59. > :09:02.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:03. > :09:06.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:07. > :09:10.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:11. > :09:17.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:18. > :09:22.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:23. > :09:25.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:26. > :09:29.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:30. > :09:34.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:35. > :09:37.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:38. > :09:44.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:45. > :09:50.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:51. > :09:54.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today. For
:09:55. > :09:56.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:57. > :10:01.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:02. > :10:06.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:07. > :10:10.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:11. > :10:14.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:15. > :10:18.week and we should welcome that. Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:19. > :10:21.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:22. > :10:25.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:26. > :10:31.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:32. > :10:37.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:38. > :10:40.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:41. > :10:44.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:45. > :10:48.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:49. > :10:55.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries,
:10:56. > :10:59.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:11:00. > :11:03.and I'm sure the Prime Minister, as we get towards the general election,
:11:04. > :11:05.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:06. > :11:13.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:14. > :11:17.you for joining us this morning. The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:18. > :11:21.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:22. > :11:25.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:26. > :11:30.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:31. > :11:33.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:34. > :11:37.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:38. > :11:41.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:42. > :11:45.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:46. > :11:50.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:51. > :11:54.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:55. > :12:00.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:01. > :12:03.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:04. > :12:08.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:09. > :12:13.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:14. > :12:18.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:19. > :12:21.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:22. > :12:25.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:26. > :12:31.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:32. > :12:34.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:35. > :12:39.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:40. > :12:45.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:46. > :12:52.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:53. > :12:54.benefits, and he might get that. He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:55. > :12:58.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:59. > :13:03.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:04. > :13:05.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:06. > :13:10.encouraged because it said, let's look at closer union, but it did not
:13:11. > :13:15.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:16. > :13:18.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:19. > :13:29.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:30. > :13:31.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:32. > :13:34.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:35. > :13:37.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:38. > :13:40.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:41. > :13:44.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:45. > :13:47.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:48. > :13:51.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:52. > :13:56.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:57. > :13:59.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:00. > :14:06.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:07. > :14:11.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:12. > :14:15.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:16. > :14:18.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:19. > :14:21.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:22. > :14:25.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:26. > :14:28.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:29. > :14:34.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:35. > :14:40.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:41. > :14:43.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:44. > :14:45.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:46. > :14:48.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:49. > :14:51.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:52. > :15:13.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:14. > :15:16.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:17. > :15:24.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:25. > :15:27.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:28. > :15:35.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:36. > :15:40.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:41. > :15:45.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:46. > :15:49.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:50. > :15:57.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:58. > :16:03.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:04. > :16:07.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:08. > :16:13.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:14. > :16:18.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:19. > :16:23.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:24. > :16:28.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:29. > :16:33.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:34. > :16:39.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:40. > :16:43.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:44. > :16:50.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes,
:16:51. > :16:54.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:55. > :16:59.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:00. > :17:04.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:05. > :17:09.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:10. > :17:14.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:15. > :17:19.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:20. > :17:25.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:26. > :17:28.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:29. > :17:34.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:35. > :17:38.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:39. > :17:43.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:44. > :17:54.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:55. > :18:00.not get away with this, will he? It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:01. > :18:05.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:06. > :18:10.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:11. > :18:14.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:15. > :18:20.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:21. > :18:24.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:25. > :18:31.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:32. > :18:35.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:36. > :18:40.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:41. > :18:46.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:47. > :18:51.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:52. > :18:57.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:58. > :19:02.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:03. > :19:06.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:07. > :19:11.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:12. > :19:15.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:16. > :19:21.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:22. > :19:25.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:26. > :19:30.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:31. > :19:34.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:35. > :19:40.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence.
:19:41. > :19:50.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:51. > :19:55.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:56. > :19:58.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:59. > :20:03.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:04. > :20:07.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:08. > :20:12.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:13. > :20:17.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:18. > :20:22.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:23. > :20:30.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:31. > :20:34.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:35. > :20:44.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:45. > :20:57.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:58. > :21:02.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:03. > :21:11.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:12. > :21:20.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:21. > :21:24.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:25. > :21:30.has taken shape on our doorstep. Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:31. > :21:34.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:35. > :21:46.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:47. > :21:51.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:52. > :21:54.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:55. > :21:59.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:22:00. > :22:06.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:07. > :22:10.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:11. > :22:18.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:19. > :22:28.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:29. > :22:32.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:33. > :22:37.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:38. > :22:43.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:44. > :22:47.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:48. > :22:56.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:57. > :22:59.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:23:00. > :23:04.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:05. > :23:11.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:12. > :23:14.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:15. > :23:24.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:25. > :23:27.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:28. > :23:39.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:40. > :23:42.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:43. > :23:49.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:50. > :23:53.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:54. > :23:58.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:23:59. > :24:03.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:04. > :24:10.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:11. > :24:16.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:17. > :24:24.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:25. > :24:33.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:34. > :24:37.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:38. > :24:41.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:42. > :24:47.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:48. > :24:53.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:54. > :24:59.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:25:00. > :25:03.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:04. > :25:07.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:08. > :25:23.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:24. > :25:28.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:29. > :25:31.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:32. > :25:37.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:38. > :25:42.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:43. > :25:48.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:49. > :25:53.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:54. > :25:58.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:59. > :26:02.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:03. > :26:13.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:14. > :26:18.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:19. > :26:29.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:30. > :26:32.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:33. > :26:38.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:39. > :26:44.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:45. > :26:49.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:50. > :26:54.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:55. > :26:59.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:27:00. > :27:06.introduction of plain packaging. There is still those who take pride
:27:07. > :27:19.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:20. > :27:22.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:23. > :27:25.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:26. > :27:29.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:30. > :27:38.They're here to go head-to-head. There are plenty of things which are
:27:39. > :27:48.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:49. > :27:52.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:53. > :27:57.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:58. > :28:02.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:03. > :28:07.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:08. > :28:12.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:13. > :28:16.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol,
:28:17. > :28:20.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:21. > :28:25.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:26. > :28:28.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:29. > :28:35.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:36. > :28:40.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:41. > :28:45.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:46. > :28:50.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:51. > :28:55.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:56. > :28:59.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:29:00. > :29:04.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:05. > :29:09.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:10. > :29:14.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:15. > :29:17.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:18. > :29:23.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 20
:29:24. > :29:28.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:29. > :29:32.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:33. > :29:36.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:37. > :29:40.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:41. > :29:46.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:47. > :29:56.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:57. > :30:01.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:02. > :30:05.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:06. > :30:10.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:11. > :30:14.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:15. > :30:18.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:19. > :30:28.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:29. > :30:34.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:35. > :30:38.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:39. > :30:43.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:44. > :30:46.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:47. > :30:52.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:53. > :30:55.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:56. > :30:59.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:31:00. > :31:03.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:04. > :31:06.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:07. > :31:10.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:11. > :31:15.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:16. > :31:20.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:21. > :31:22.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:23. > :31:29.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It's
:31:30. > :31:33.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:34. > :31:37.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:38. > :31:44.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:45. > :31:48.even if I am born in the year 2000, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:49. > :31:54.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:55. > :31:58.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:31:59. > :32:03.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:04. > :32:06.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes. One
:32:07. > :32:09.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:10. > :32:14.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:15. > :32:17.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:18. > :32:20.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:21. > :32:26.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:27. > :32:30.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:31. > :32:33.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:34. > :32:37.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:38. > :32:41.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be."
:32:42. > :32:44.So said David Cameron back in 2009. So how's it going?
:32:45. > :32:46.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:47. > :32:49.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:50. > :32:50.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:51. > :32:57.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:58. > :32:59.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:33:00. > :33:06.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 2010
:33:07. > :33:09.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:10. > :33:17.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:18. > :33:23.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:24. > :33:30.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:31. > :33:34.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:35. > :33:37.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:38. > :33:41.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:42. > :33:45.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:46. > :33:51.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:52. > :33:56.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:57. > :33:59.whole country. Despite the jibe, the Labour Party know they have a long
:34:00. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:11. > :34:11.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:12. > :34:11.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:12. > :34:43.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:44. > :34:50.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 41%
:34:51. > :34:51.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:52. > :34:54.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:55. > :34:57.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:58. > :35:00.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:01. > :35:05.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones,
:35:06. > :35:09.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:10. > :35:12.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:13. > :35:15.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:16. > :35:20.However all the indications are it could be
:35:21. > :35:24.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:25. > :35:30.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:31. > :35:33.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:34. > :35:36.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:37. > :35:51.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:52. > :35:58.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:59. > :36:02.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:03. > :36:03.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:04. > :36:08.represented here at Westminster. So that's the Parliamentary
:36:09. > :36:09.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:10. > :36:15.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:16. > :36:21.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:22. > :36:24.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:25. > :36:28.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:29. > :36:35.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:36. > :36:38.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:39. > :36:47.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:48. > :36:52.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:53. > :36:55.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:56. > :36:57.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:58. > :37:07.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:08. > :37:10.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:11. > :37:14.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:15. > :37:22.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:23. > :37:29.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:30. > :37:33.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:34. > :37:36.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:37. > :37:41.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:42. > :37:44.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:45. > :37:47.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:48. > :37:50.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:51. > :37:52.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:53. > :37:56.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:57. > :38:05.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:06. > :38:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:08. > :38:19.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:20. > :38:21.Hello, and on the Sunday Politics Wales.
:38:22. > :38:25.I've been talking to Wales' only Muslim AM or MP.
:38:26. > :38:28.He says Imams must be able to speak English.
:38:29. > :38:31.And a historic step, or a lack of ambition?
:38:32. > :38:34.More powers for the Assembly clear the Commons and
:38:35. > :38:46.Among the 100 AMs and MPs representing Wales,
:38:47. > :38:50.The Conservative AM says Imams must be able to speak English
:38:51. > :38:53.before they are allowed to teach in mosques in the UK.
:38:54. > :38:55.He says foreign preachers who can't speak English are not
:38:56. > :39:02.Nasser Muthana and Reyaad Khan from Cardiff, apparently in Syria,
:39:03. > :39:08.Nasser's younger brother Aseel has also joined them.
:39:09. > :39:12.Nasser and Aseel's father says police failed to win the trust
:39:13. > :39:18.The police disagree and say countering radicalisation is
:39:19. > :39:23.People are talking to us, people are reassured by us being here.
:39:24. > :39:26.And what we are being told is that they have the trust in the police.
:39:27. > :39:30.People recognise that this is several young men, for what could be
:39:31. > :39:38.many, many men across the UK, we're talking about a couple of men.
:39:39. > :39:40.I think people realise the police cannot keep hold of
:39:41. > :39:43.absolutely everybody but they are doing the best job that they can.
:39:44. > :39:46.At the mosque in his home city of Newport, I spoke to Mohammad Asghar,
:39:47. > :39:52.He says Muslim parents must pay attention to what their children
:39:53. > :39:57.are doing but other authority figures have a part to play too.
:39:58. > :40:01.Imams come from all over the world in this country.
:40:02. > :40:07.And one of the measures we may consider,
:40:08. > :40:09.probably will be considered, their command in the English language.
:40:10. > :40:14.Because when you teach, you must know the child's language first.
:40:15. > :40:16.So they're coming from overseas countries,
:40:17. > :40:20.and if their English is not up to standard, I personally believe they
:40:21. > :40:28.So the standard up to a certain level, for each teacher,
:40:29. > :40:34.must be crucial for anybody to come and teach in mosques for now on.
:40:35. > :40:39.That is one thing which will be considered, because at
:40:40. > :40:43.no point should the police come in and he or she is not able to speak
:40:44. > :40:49.English, is not helpful, neither to the children, nor to Islam.
:40:50. > :40:52.As it happens, this mosque is just around the corner
:40:53. > :40:58.So how are relations between local Muslim people and the police?
:40:59. > :41:02.I find police in Newport especially...
:41:03. > :41:07.I meet Ian Johnson, the police commissioner, very regularly too.
:41:08. > :41:11.So in my understanding, the police relationship with the mostly Muslim
:41:12. > :41:16.It's estimated that up to 500 Britons have gone to fight in Syria
:41:17. > :41:21.So how widespread is the phenomenon in Wales?
:41:22. > :41:24.After all, we only know about a handful of young men
:41:25. > :41:31.Friday prayers at the South Wales Islamic Centre in Cardiff.
:41:32. > :41:34.Police say extremism is no more of a problem in the city than
:41:35. > :41:39.In a joint statement, politicians and religious leaders
:41:40. > :41:47.I don't think Cardiff is different from any other place in the country.
:41:48. > :41:49.We've had a history of extremely tolerant
:41:50. > :41:52.and excellent dialogue between faith communities and different
:41:53. > :41:59.Clearly, there are some disturbing reports which have emerged over
:42:00. > :42:02.the weekend, and over the past few months, and we've all got to work
:42:03. > :42:06.Nevertheless, the UK government this week banned
:42:07. > :42:10.two extremist groups, both are reported to have links to Cardiff.
:42:11. > :42:19.The revelation that young Welshmen are joining jihadists in the
:42:20. > :42:23.Middle East has given Muslims, the police and wider society plenty
:42:24. > :42:28.Assistant chief Constable Nikki Holland of South
:42:29. > :42:31.Wales Police, Cardiff South and Penarth MP Stephen Doughty were in
:42:32. > :42:37.Joining me in the studio is Professor Martin Innes,
:42:38. > :42:40.the director of the Universities Police Science Institute at
:42:41. > :42:50.Cardiff University and Mona Bayoumi, a Cardiff-based Muslim barrister.
:42:51. > :43:00.Thank you both for joining us. We heard there, that the present --
:43:01. > :43:03.police prevent strategy is working. Perhaps you can explain what the
:43:04. > :43:08.police are doing, what is their strategy. The prevent strategy has
:43:09. > :43:12.been in place for ten years, and it has three key components. The first
:43:13. > :43:18.is a counter radicalisation component, which is trying to stop
:43:19. > :43:21.people coming into contact with extremist ideologists. There is a B
:43:22. > :43:29.radicalisation component which is what you do with people who have
:43:30. > :43:32.come into contact with it, and the third component is about community
:43:33. > :43:44.resilience and capacity building, trying to empower community to play
:43:45. > :43:50.a role. And does it work? One of the issues about terrorism and this sort
:43:51. > :43:57.of thing is an ongoing process. It is a long-term problem that we are
:43:58. > :44:00.drawn to face at the moment. We are hearing that police and politicians
:44:01. > :44:03.agree that Cardiff and south Wales, there is no evidence to show there
:44:04. > :44:10.is a worse problem here than anywhere at him Britain, Duke and
:44:11. > :44:20.care? -- do you concur? I think anecdotage -- anecdotally, there are
:44:21. > :44:25.fewer problems in Cardiff than the UK as a whole. There is no research
:44:26. > :44:29.to suggest in the research that any of this purported radicalisation is
:44:30. > :44:33.happening in our mosques here in Wales, and that is a very important
:44:34. > :44:40.message to make the public aware of. With the type of coverage that there
:44:41. > :44:45.has been of this incident and everything up leading up to it, the
:44:46. > :44:50.first port of call would obviously be eyes on the mosques. And the
:44:51. > :44:56.negative press that comes with that. So where is it coming from? How are
:44:57. > :45:00.these young men being exposed? I do not think there is any particularly
:45:01. > :45:04.clear findings on that. There have been some suggestions that these
:45:05. > :45:09.people initially go out with a humanitarian ambition to, for
:45:10. > :45:12.example, refugee camps on the borders of Syria and then
:45:13. > :45:17.potentially get radicalised there. I think the use of social networking
:45:18. > :45:20.and the Internet has a lot to answer for in that respect because the
:45:21. > :45:27.young individuals are so much more accessible now to radical preachers.
:45:28. > :45:31.This is not the first time we have seen a case like this. There were
:45:32. > :45:37.reports of young men from Cardiff trying to get to Somalia and Kenya.
:45:38. > :45:41.There is something here for the wider community in south Wales and
:45:42. > :45:47.the Muslim responsibility -- Muslim community to respond to. Absolutely,
:45:48. > :45:53.and it is a process. It is one where the community, families, parents, it
:45:54. > :46:00.requires a multi-agency approach to ensure that these individuals who
:46:01. > :46:06.appear to be disenfranchised from mainline society are brought back
:46:07. > :46:10.in. It is a cliche, but bridges between the community and agencies
:46:11. > :46:14.need to be strengthened. The role the media has to play is
:46:15. > :46:18.particularly critical in my view. Talking about building bridges and
:46:19. > :46:22.drawing young men back into mainstream society, is it a bit much
:46:23. > :46:27.to expect the police to do that? I think she is quite correct when she
:46:28. > :46:30.says it is a multi-agency effort. Fundamentally, police are reliant on
:46:31. > :46:36.people telling them about individuals where they have concerns
:46:37. > :46:40.also stations -- or suspicions that something is not right. That is one
:46:41. > :46:47.of the things of the prevent programme, it has taken me
:46:48. > :46:54.multi-agency policy quite seriously. It has been contentious? In what
:46:55. > :46:57.way? Some people are saying that the problem has been overplayed and we
:46:58. > :47:01.are making too much out of it. All of the research evidence that we
:47:02. > :47:08.have says it is a problem in our major towns and city -- cities. The
:47:09. > :47:13.dynamics of the problem are changing so we need to be clear about one
:47:14. > :47:18.long to achieve -- what we want to achieve. Is there a danger that the
:47:19. > :47:24.intense scrutiny on the Muslim community in South Wales, people
:47:25. > :47:29.might be reluctant to cooperate with the police? There are clear examples
:47:30. > :47:31.in the last five years in Cardiff and Wales where the community have
:47:32. > :47:36.stepped forward and helped the police. I think what the police and
:47:37. > :47:39.other communities and the government need to be doing is asking the
:47:40. > :47:42.question, do we have the resources in place to allow this work to
:47:43. > :47:47.continue and make sure people have what they need to help? Have they
:47:48. > :47:55.got the resources, have cutbacks been a problem? I think Mona
:47:56. > :47:57.mentioned, it has been a multi agency approach. We are not sure
:47:58. > :48:02.what the agency approach. We are not sure
:48:03. > :48:07.what cumulative impact has been all the cutbacks. I would certainly be
:48:08. > :48:14.asking the question, do you have what you need? Picking up on
:48:15. > :48:18.Corporation -- Corporation, does this feel like a community that has
:48:19. > :48:22.been under pressure? The Muslim community has been under pressure
:48:23. > :48:26.for some time, so that is not new. It is that much more intense now and
:48:27. > :48:31.it will continue to be more intense. The risk that that poses is
:48:32. > :48:38.that individuals within the community feel, when is this going
:48:39. > :48:41.to end? Why is it we are being portrayed in this way? There are
:48:42. > :48:45.individuals in the community that are doing things in the name of the
:48:46. > :48:50.community and the religion in an entirely, entirely incorrect way.
:48:51. > :48:55.Does that mean that the community as a whole has to suffer? In order to
:48:56. > :48:59.encourage individuals in the community to cooperate with
:49:00. > :49:03.authorities, the dialogue in the public domain needs to change in
:49:04. > :49:07.order to feel, to allow Muslims to feel that they are not being singled
:49:08. > :49:12.out. So do you worry that young men who, as we have heard, feel
:49:13. > :49:18.dissatisfied or alienate it from society, that they do not have any
:49:19. > :49:22.other outlet? I think lack of an outlet is an issue... They may have
:49:23. > :49:28.a genuine grievance over British foreign policy or whatever, where'd
:49:29. > :49:31.go with that? I am glad you have picked up on that, the issue in
:49:32. > :49:37.Syria is unique because this has been a massacre that has been going
:49:38. > :49:40.on for three audios, without there being any international
:49:41. > :49:43.intervention. -- for three years. People feel helpless. You see
:49:44. > :49:49.children dying on television and no one is doing anything about it. I am
:49:50. > :49:52.not saying in any way, shape or form that that is the justification for
:49:53. > :49:58.these young men to go and fight, but this has to be addressed. For
:49:59. > :50:02.example, the recent murder of the young Saudi woman in Essex. The
:50:03. > :50:06.media coverage of that, it should be on the part with the media coverage
:50:07. > :50:11.that there was around this time last year with the tragic murder of Lee
:50:12. > :50:16.Rigby. That is an act of extremism, what happened a few weeks ago in
:50:17. > :50:20.Essex, it has not been labelled as that. We are out of time, good to
:50:21. > :50:22.talk to you both. Thank you for joining me.
:50:23. > :50:24.Tax-raising powers for the Welsh government are progressing through
:50:25. > :50:28.An important step towards more accountable, devolved government.
:50:29. > :50:30.That's how the Welsh Secretary David Jones describes the Wales Bill
:50:31. > :50:33.which has completed its passage through the Commons.
:50:34. > :50:38.Shortly we'll hear the Labour and Conservative views,
:50:39. > :50:45.but first here's what Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats say.
:50:46. > :50:55.There are some significant matters in it, such as transferring minor
:50:56. > :50:59.taxes and also the borrowing power that it gives the Assembly.
:51:00. > :51:01.So it's a small step forward, I suppose.
:51:02. > :51:06.I think it's a historic step on the journey of devolution in Wales.
:51:07. > :51:10.Tax varying powers are very important because now the people
:51:11. > :51:14.of Wales can hold the Assembly and the Assembly government to account
:51:15. > :51:18.not only on how they spend money, but how they raise money as well.
:51:19. > :51:22.I think the Lords will be looking at the lock step.
:51:23. > :51:25.The Labour Party made a huge song and dance
:51:26. > :51:31.about dual candidacy, and I won't go into detail about that, it seems to
:51:32. > :51:34.be a personal obsession, nobody else seems to be bothered about it.
:51:35. > :51:38.But taxation is a substantial matter and that's one
:51:39. > :51:43.We'd be happier without the lock step, which is a process by
:51:44. > :51:47.which you can't vary the difference between different tax rates.
:51:48. > :51:50.If you want to put up taxes, then all the tax rates must go up.
:51:51. > :51:53.And if you want to drop them, all the tax rates must come down.
:51:54. > :51:57.Although we are disappointed the lock step is in place,
:51:58. > :52:01.we think that because it's so important that the Assembly can
:52:02. > :52:15.raise their own taxes, we will put up with it in the short-term.
:52:16. > :52:23.We want to see reform of the Barnett formula, which is on the way as
:52:24. > :52:29.well. Labour would postpone bits of the bill until it has been sorted
:52:30. > :52:33.and we look forward to that. As we go forward into the Lords, it may be
:52:34. > :52:37.that commitments will go forward into the reserved matters issue,
:52:38. > :52:40.which sets out what powers are the responsibility of Westminster, and
:52:41. > :52:44.what are the response pretty of the Assembly. I would like to see a good
:52:45. > :52:46.discussion in the Lords about that and come back to the Commons for
:52:47. > :52:48.further consideration. In the studio is the shadow
:52:49. > :52:51.Wales Office minister, Labour's Nia Griffith, and the Conservative MP
:52:52. > :53:01.for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies. Start with you, these income tax
:53:02. > :53:08.powers, they will only happen after a referendum. How likely is that to
:53:09. > :53:11.take place? I think the key thing is that if it were going to take place,
:53:12. > :53:17.we would make certain it is going to work. First of all you need to sort
:53:18. > :53:21.out the fair funding issue, if Wales is not being funded partly in the
:53:22. > :53:24.first place, you could end up with people in Wales being taxed more
:53:25. > :53:28.because they do not have enough from London. This is the Barnett formula,
:53:29. > :53:34.your party has not committed to this. We have clearly said that we
:53:35. > :53:37.have got to look at the issue of Wales, that is what Ed Miliband has
:53:38. > :53:43.said, and made it clear. The Barnett boy there has served us -- formula
:53:44. > :53:48.has served us up until now but there is an issue now. Secondly, we need
:53:49. > :53:52.to make sure that any way that the income tax powers were to work would
:53:53. > :53:57.be successful and work properly. There is no way you can go to the
:53:58. > :54:01.Welsh people and expect them to once those income tax powers and have a
:54:02. > :54:05.successful answer in the referendum if they are not clear those things
:54:06. > :54:08.are being sorted out. Your party would have that referendum as soon
:54:09. > :54:14.as possible and start cutting taxes, is that right? I think that would be
:54:15. > :54:18.a matter for the group in the assembly to decide. I would like to
:54:19. > :54:22.see an early referendum and the bill goes through, become an act. But
:54:23. > :54:28.why, if not to cut taxes and therefore the Welsh government's
:54:29. > :54:32.budget? The only logical position in Wales, if I listen to economists, is
:54:33. > :54:38.attracting people to Wales to pay a higher rate of tax might be
:54:39. > :54:41.sensible. The point will be that the Welsh government, if they do have
:54:42. > :54:46.tax-raising powers, they will have to look at what is beneficial to the
:54:47. > :54:49.Welsh economy and budget. I think I wanted to see that position so it
:54:50. > :54:54.has a clear engagement with the people. What is your sense of what
:54:55. > :55:00.people want? Do they want a Welsh government that can alter income
:55:01. > :55:04.tax? It is a job to say, it will depend on how the question is
:55:05. > :55:09.presented. To me, it is important, and I think, since 1999, a lot of us
:55:10. > :55:15.against devolution and setting up the Assembly, I think it should be a
:55:16. > :55:20.law making an tax-raising body. Until begets to genuinely raising
:55:21. > :55:27.substantial part of contacts, people will not engage in the debate and
:55:28. > :55:33.the decisions the pack, -- the assembly has to take. They said that
:55:34. > :55:38.it lacks ambition, do you agree? There would be an opportunity to go
:55:39. > :55:41.to a reserve powers waddle, saying that what we define is what
:55:42. > :55:48.Westminster does and everything else... So it clear that up, we have
:55:49. > :55:51.seen court cases. Yes, we would like to seek clarity, so we don't have a
:55:52. > :55:56.situation where thousands of pounds are being spent on court cases
:55:57. > :56:02.trying to sort out what the Welsh Assembly can and can't do. Why
:56:03. > :56:06.didn't the UK government do that? The idea that it will clear up
:56:07. > :56:10.disagreement about where power lies, this is not the case. I personally
:56:11. > :56:14.think the reserve powers model is the right way to go. There will
:56:15. > :56:18.still be disputes about what is reserved and not, afterwards, it
:56:19. > :56:21.will not make any difference. It is going to the Lords, they make have a
:56:22. > :56:26.debate and it will have another debate in the Commons. I think it is
:56:27. > :56:30.a big step forward currently. It is incremental but a big step forward
:56:31. > :56:34.in of devolution. This is not part of it, it might be part of the next
:56:35. > :56:40.step forward. The government says this is all about making the
:56:41. > :56:44.Assembly or making evolution more accountable. Why has it taken us so
:56:45. > :56:48.long to get to this point? Devolution has been with us for 15
:56:49. > :56:56.years. Why did Labour never take this step if, is the case, the Welsh
:56:57. > :57:01.government wants these tax-raising powers? I think the key thing is
:57:02. > :57:06.people's opinions in Wales have moved forward, since the referendum
:57:07. > :57:08.in 2011, it is clear that people want certain lawmaking and
:57:09. > :57:12.decision-making power to be in Cardiff. That would not have been
:57:13. > :57:15.the case 15 years ago. What is important in this bill is the
:57:16. > :57:21.borrowing powers it gives to Welsh government, because it was anomalous
:57:22. > :57:25.that they did not have it before. It will be important for infrastructure
:57:26. > :57:29.projects which can help the Welsh economy. Like the M4 relief road, is
:57:30. > :57:33.that what you would spend the money on? Certainly road improvements are
:57:34. > :57:37.needed, not just in the South at the North as well. You have got to have
:57:38. > :57:45.connectivity if you are going to attract business and industry. We
:57:46. > :57:47.have seen yesterday the education Ministry Hugh Lewis and the
:57:48. > :57:57.education secretary for the UK government Michael Gove slugging it
:57:58. > :58:04.out over, over education standards in Wales. Is it right for the, after
:58:05. > :58:08.all, Michael Gove, the education secretary for England, intervening
:58:09. > :58:14.in Welsh politics? He was expressing a view pretty forcibly as he often
:58:15. > :58:20.does. Is it any of his business? I don't think there is a problem, I am
:58:21. > :58:27.a Welsh MP and a Westminster MP, I have use what happens in Wales and
:58:28. > :58:31.England and Scotland. It is a point of view. Expressed by other
:58:32. > :58:35.Westminster -based politicians as well. I think Hugh Lewis, the
:58:36. > :58:42.opposite assembly Minister is perfectly care -- capable of
:58:43. > :58:46.slugging it out. And I like robust behaviour, that is part of what
:58:47. > :58:50.British politics should be about. The Welsh government's record on the
:58:51. > :58:54.health service has been criticised by David Cameron. And now on the
:58:55. > :58:58.education service as well. What is going on? I think there is a
:58:59. > :59:02.political motivation. I think what Michael Gove is trying to do is
:59:03. > :59:06.deflecting from what is going on in England, where he set up free
:59:07. > :59:09.schools where there are no minimum standards on buildings, food, the
:59:10. > :59:13.qualifications of the teachers, and not even on the curriculum they have
:59:14. > :59:17.to deliver. He is not even going to have any form of local inspector as
:59:18. > :59:20.we have suggested to try and find out
:59:21. > :59:24.we have suggested to try and find what is going on in these schools.
:59:25. > :59:29.It could be too late when the Ofsted inspectors arrive. This week, we
:59:30. > :59:32.have started hearing that Welsh private schools are going to offer
:59:33. > :59:37.English GCSE courses instead of Welsh ones, they say the Welsh ones
:59:38. > :59:43.lack portability and accountability. That is not a vote of confidence in
:59:44. > :59:50.the Welsh education system. Conversely, the English boards have
:59:51. > :59:56.expressed satisfaction here. The key thing that we need to make sure that
:59:57. > :00:00.the Welsh standards are having portability and are of good
:00:01. > :00:04.standards. The way that Hugh Lewis is going forward with the consortium
:00:05. > :00:08.approach, making groups that are big enough to deliver school improvement
:00:09. > :00:12.but small enough to be local, in other words, bringing together
:00:13. > :00:15.schools across local authorities and implement in the School challenge
:00:16. > :00:21.programme which was so successful in London which Michael Gove trying to
:00:22. > :00:26.undo, these will deliver results. Is it all going too far? The first
:00:27. > :00:33.Minister describes this as the Tory war on Wales, do think this will go
:00:34. > :00:37.too far? No, I do not get involved in a war on Wales, it is the people,
:00:38. > :00:42.what they tell me, they tell me what is happening. They look at the
:00:43. > :00:46.results and what is happening in the health service. The people are
:00:47. > :00:53.worried about what is happening, and Michael both's views, reflected by
:00:54. > :00:56.an Westminster MP, but they -- expressed by Westminster MP, but
:00:57. > :01:01.they reflect the views of the Welsh people. Hopefully the debate will
:01:02. > :01:09.continue here on the show in the future. Thank you for joining us,
:01:10. > :01:12.thanks again. That is all from me. We have the news at 7:10pm, new
:01:13. > :01:18.again at 20 past. but I take your point. Thanks to
:01:19. > :01:23.both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:24. > :01:25.Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks
:01:26. > :01:28.about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come
:01:29. > :01:33.from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.
:01:34. > :01:36.In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,
:01:37. > :01:39."instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus
:01:40. > :01:42.groups and our press strategies, and our desire for a topline in terms of
:01:43. > :01:45.the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any
:01:46. > :01:55.He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a
:01:56. > :02:08.The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls, was asked about what Mr Cruddas had
:02:09. > :02:17.I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is
:02:18. > :02:24.excited about his policy agenda. He is frustrated that one report of 250
:02:25. > :02:30.pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in
:02:31. > :02:35.the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution,
:02:36. > :02:38.long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new
:02:39. > :02:45.investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really
:02:46. > :02:51.on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so
:02:52. > :02:55.let's call it an unforced error. You go to the party speeches, and you
:02:56. > :02:58.don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as
:02:59. > :03:01.serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks
:03:02. > :03:05.about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled
:03:06. > :03:09.out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite
:03:10. > :03:14.saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.
:03:15. > :03:18.When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult
:03:19. > :03:22.for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He
:03:23. > :03:26.was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being
:03:27. > :03:29.criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is
:03:30. > :03:32.particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician
:03:33. > :03:39.of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David
:03:40. > :03:43.Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is
:03:44. > :03:49.wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I
:03:50. > :03:52.would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised
:03:53. > :03:58.immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical
:03:59. > :04:01.and innovative on its own terms. I don't think any member of the public
:04:02. > :04:05.does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If
:04:06. > :04:08.anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a
:04:09. > :04:11.Labour government could do and nervous about the economic
:04:12. > :04:17.reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the
:04:18. > :04:22.notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in
:04:23. > :04:25.night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,
:04:26. > :04:29.because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus
:04:30. > :04:33.of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's
:04:34. > :04:37.interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour
:04:38. > :04:41.Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British
:04:42. > :04:46.people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander
:04:47. > :04:51.offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices
:04:52. > :04:54.and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has
:04:55. > :05:00.real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is
:05:01. > :05:04.John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy
:05:05. > :05:08.review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the
:05:09. > :05:13.policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the
:05:14. > :05:17.problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong
:05:18. > :05:21.opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they
:05:22. > :05:24.maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have
:05:25. > :05:29.in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise
:05:30. > :05:32.after his former director of communications was convicted
:05:33. > :05:34.of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,
:05:35. > :05:37.Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared
:05:38. > :05:47.of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for
:05:48. > :05:51.employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was
:05:52. > :05:54.given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.
:05:55. > :05:58.I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full
:05:59. > :06:03.and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I
:06:04. > :06:08.employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When
:06:09. > :06:12.I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,
:06:13. > :06:18.politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was
:06:19. > :06:26.not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a
:06:27. > :06:30.great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another
:06:31. > :06:36.person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an
:06:37. > :06:39.unrelated issue. And he was 26-2 on the wrong end in Brussels, and there
:06:40. > :06:43.is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts
:06:44. > :06:46.Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings
:06:47. > :06:51.criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr
:06:52. > :06:55.Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when
:06:56. > :06:58.one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been
:06:59. > :07:03.the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the
:07:04. > :07:06.other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be
:07:07. > :07:09.the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised
:07:10. > :07:13.questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political
:07:14. > :07:17.damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was
:07:18. > :07:19.sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the
:07:20. > :07:25.date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago -- it
:07:26. > :07:31.was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the
:07:32. > :07:34.general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am
:07:35. > :07:38.sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in
:07:39. > :07:42.recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that
:07:43. > :07:46.Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a
:07:47. > :07:50.slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears
:07:51. > :07:55.the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with
:07:56. > :07:59.Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be
:08:00. > :08:02.lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when
:08:03. > :08:05.there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the
:08:06. > :08:10.News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made
:08:11. > :08:14.a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out
:08:15. > :08:18.she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding
:08:19. > :08:24.what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her
:08:25. > :08:27.party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said
:08:28. > :08:32.that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one
:08:33. > :08:38.person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the
:08:39. > :08:42.SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime
:08:43. > :08:44.Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He's
:08:45. > :08:52.very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed
:08:53. > :08:55.Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that
:08:56. > :09:00.is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week
:09:01. > :09:03.the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the
:09:04. > :09:07.polls than he has had some time, so he must be wondering why they are
:09:08. > :09:10.having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's
:09:11. > :09:14.Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The
:09:15. > :09:18.one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in
:09:19. > :09:22.the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.
:09:23. > :09:26.The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the
:09:27. > :09:30.Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are
:09:31. > :09:33.complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I
:09:34. > :09:35.don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose
:09:36. > :09:37.Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had
:09:38. > :09:40.trouble keeping his views about the environment
:09:41. > :09:42.and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's
:09:43. > :09:45.passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be
:09:46. > :09:47.broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,
:09:48. > :09:52.David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence
:09:53. > :09:59.his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was
:10:00. > :10:05.not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very
:10:06. > :10:08.keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had
:10:09. > :10:12.what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their
:10:13. > :10:14.background, where as I wanted to change their background.
:10:15. > :10:17.And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist -
:10:18. > :10:26.Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of
:10:27. > :10:28.policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of
:10:29. > :10:34.grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a
:10:35. > :10:38.principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and
:10:39. > :10:42.judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much
:10:43. > :10:46.contacting makes with ministers. And how many representations he makes on
:10:47. > :10:51.the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it
:10:52. > :10:55.hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future
:10:56. > :10:59.monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to
:11:00. > :11:03.influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence
:11:04. > :11:08.and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private
:11:09. > :11:14.one-on-one lobbying. Possibly -- so a speech. Prince Charles's views are
:11:15. > :11:18.interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes
:11:19. > :11:20.a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in
:11:21. > :11:25.the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural
:11:26. > :11:29.development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which
:11:30. > :11:32.no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not
:11:33. > :11:38.convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his
:11:39. > :11:45.position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously
:11:46. > :11:50.described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He's 66
:11:51. > :11:55.and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the
:11:56. > :11:58.powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the
:11:59. > :12:02.Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the
:12:03. > :12:05.problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but
:12:06. > :12:11.you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses
:12:12. > :12:15.that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing
:12:16. > :12:21.is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has
:12:22. > :12:24.got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win
:12:25. > :12:28.either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will
:12:29. > :12:32.be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and
:12:33. > :12:36.when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,
:12:37. > :12:42.stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are
:12:43. > :12:45.encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama
:12:46. > :12:49.has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.
:12:50. > :12:53.Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering
:12:54. > :12:57.solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way
:12:58. > :13:00.with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can
:13:01. > :13:05.complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can
:13:06. > :13:08.become a party political issue. He has had some influence on
:13:09. > :13:09.architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better
:13:10. > :13:11.than the ones we used to put up. The Daily Politics is on BBC 2
:13:12. > :13:16.at 11:00am We'll be back here
:13:17. > :13:21.at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:22. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics.