:00:34. > :00:40.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:41. > :00:43.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.
:00:44. > :00:45.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:46. > :00:50.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:51. > :00:54.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:55. > :00:57.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:00:58. > :01:00.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:01. > :01:06.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:07. > :01:10.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:11. > :01:16.joins me from Edinburgh. Later in the programme.
:01:17. > :01:33.And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political
:01:34. > :01:36.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:37. > :01:51.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:52. > :01:53.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:54. > :01:56.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:57. > :01:59.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:00. > :02:01.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:02. > :02:03.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:04. > :02:09.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:10. > :02:14.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:15. > :02:19.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:20. > :02:25.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:26. > :02:29.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:30. > :02:33.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:34. > :02:36.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:37. > :02:41.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:42. > :02:45.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:46. > :02:49.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:50. > :02:54.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:55. > :02:58.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:02:59. > :03:02.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:03. > :03:06.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:07. > :03:11.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:12. > :03:15.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:16. > :03:19.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:20. > :03:22.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:23. > :03:27.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:28. > :03:33.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:34. > :03:36.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:37. > :03:39.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:40. > :03:45.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:46. > :03:49.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:50. > :03:53.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:54. > :03:56.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:57. > :04:02.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:03. > :04:03.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:04. > :04:06.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:07. > :04:09.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:10. > :04:09.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:10. > :04:16.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:17. > :04:20.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:21. > :04:20.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:21. > :04:34.inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the
:04:35. > :04:40.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:41. > :04:42.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:43. > :04:50.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:51. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:55. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:55. > :05:01.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:02. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:03. > :05:05.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:06. > :05:11.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:12. > :05:15.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I
:05:16. > :05:19.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:20. > :05:23.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:24. > :05:26.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:27. > :05:30.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:31. > :05:35.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:36. > :05:41.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:42. > :05:43.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:44. > :05:45.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:46. > :05:47.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:48. > :05:50.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:51. > :05:52.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:53. > :05:58.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:05:59. > :06:02.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:03. > :06:04.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:05. > :06:09.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:10. > :06:16.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:17. > :06:25.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:26. > :06:29.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:30. > :06:31.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:32. > :06:37.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:38. > :06:41.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:42. > :06:49.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:50. > :06:52.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:53. > :07:00.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:01. > :07:03.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:04. > :07:22.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:23. > :07:28.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:29. > :07:33.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:34. > :07:37.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:38. > :07:42.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:43. > :07:46.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:47. > :07:53.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:54. > :07:58.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:07:59. > :08:03.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:04. > :08:06.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:07. > :08:11.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:12. > :08:15.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:16. > :08:19.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:20. > :08:22.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:23. > :08:25.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:26. > :08:28.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:29. > :08:31.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:32. > :08:36.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:37. > :08:40.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:41. > :08:44.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax
:08:45. > :08:50.cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big
:08:51. > :08:56.corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local
:08:57. > :08:59.government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women
:09:00. > :09:03.who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:04. > :09:07.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:08. > :09:11.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:12. > :09:15.You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,
:09:16. > :09:23.many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases
:09:24. > :09:28.since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food
:09:29. > :09:34.costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people
:09:35. > :09:39.from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average
:09:40. > :09:43.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:44. > :09:48.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:49. > :09:52.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:53. > :09:56.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:57. > :10:00.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:01. > :10:04.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:05. > :10:09.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:10. > :10:14.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,
:10:15. > :10:19.partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really
:10:20. > :10:24.important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have
:10:25. > :10:28.stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not
:10:29. > :10:32.spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase
:10:33. > :10:36.itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and
:10:37. > :10:42.guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.
:10:43. > :10:51.?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?
:10:52. > :10:58.I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being
:10:59. > :11:01.able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints
:11:02. > :11:04.of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The
:11:05. > :11:09.evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the
:11:10. > :11:17.Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even
:11:18. > :11:22.after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they
:11:23. > :11:31.are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?
:11:32. > :11:35.That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that
:11:36. > :11:39.report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are
:11:40. > :11:48.saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the
:11:49. > :11:54.public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are
:11:55. > :11:57.comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the
:11:58. > :12:02.workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better
:12:03. > :12:08.off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate
:12:09. > :12:16.better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry
:12:17. > :12:21.private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political
:12:22. > :12:23.strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The
:12:24. > :12:28.strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is
:12:29. > :12:32.what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government
:12:33. > :12:36.workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers
:12:37. > :12:40.are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of
:12:41. > :12:44.touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards
:12:45. > :12:49.depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real
:12:50. > :12:55.increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we
:12:56. > :12:59.certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?
:13:00. > :13:05.2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament...
:13:06. > :13:14.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:15. > :13:18.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:19. > :13:22.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:23. > :13:25.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:26. > :13:28.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:29. > :13:32.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:33. > :13:37.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:38. > :13:45.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:46. > :13:51.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:52. > :13:58.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:13:59. > :14:08.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:09. > :14:15.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:16. > :14:18.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:19. > :14:23.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:24. > :14:28.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's planning a big crackdown on the
:14:29. > :14:34.unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know
:14:35. > :14:37.the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this
:14:38. > :14:42.make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government
:14:43. > :14:44.on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of
:14:45. > :14:48.time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be
:14:49. > :14:51.an independent country?" That's the question the people of
:14:52. > :14:52.Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed,
:14:53. > :14:56.the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before
:14:57. > :14:58.the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win
:14:59. > :15:01.and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading
:15:02. > :15:23.the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of
:15:24. > :15:30.independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what
:15:31. > :15:34.would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will
:15:35. > :15:39.get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple
:15:40. > :15:44.of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a
:15:45. > :15:50.number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a
:15:51. > :15:56.half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be
:15:57. > :16:00.encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a
:16:01. > :16:06.long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that
:16:07. > :16:11.is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a
:16:12. > :16:16.vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of
:16:17. > :16:20.uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising
:16:21. > :16:27.devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there
:16:28. > :16:33.is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more
:16:34. > :16:39.or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have
:16:40. > :16:44.powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are
:16:45. > :16:52.planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying
:16:53. > :16:55.different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have
:16:56. > :17:00.slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an
:17:01. > :17:08.agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute
:17:09. > :17:12.book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998,
:17:13. > :17:17.people unified around a single proposition so there is history here
:17:18. > :17:20.and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in
:17:21. > :17:27.the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland
:17:28. > :17:31.vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I
:17:32. > :17:35.would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have
:17:36. > :17:40.something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in
:17:41. > :17:44.the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not
:17:45. > :17:50.certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,
:17:51. > :17:55.and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the
:17:56. > :18:01.past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt
:18:02. > :18:06.over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that
:18:07. > :18:09.walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists
:18:10. > :18:14.because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete
:18:15. > :18:19.break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that
:18:20. > :18:26.wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any
:18:27. > :18:32.plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,
:18:33. > :18:36.what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future
:18:37. > :18:41.of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.
:18:42. > :18:45.When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with
:18:46. > :18:49.representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that
:18:50. > :18:56.affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want
:18:57. > :19:00.to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local
:19:01. > :19:05.authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the
:19:06. > :19:10.uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would
:19:11. > :19:19.throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic
:19:20. > :19:37.arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is
:19:38. > :19:41.what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued
:19:42. > :19:48.membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an
:19:49. > :19:53.in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued
:19:54. > :19:57.Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and
:19:58. > :20:01.conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into
:20:02. > :20:07.something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we
:20:08. > :20:12.have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate
:20:13. > :20:19.which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have
:20:20. > :20:23.to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union
:20:24. > :20:29.does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half
:20:30. > :20:33.years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the
:20:34. > :20:39.disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with
:20:40. > :20:46.losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about
:20:47. > :20:50.is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,
:20:51. > :21:00.and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to
:21:01. > :21:05.stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the
:21:06. > :21:11.argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that
:21:12. > :21:16.over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that
:21:17. > :21:20.is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our
:21:21. > :21:24.arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be
:21:25. > :21:31.made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists
:21:32. > :21:40.win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no
:21:41. > :21:47.vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a
:21:48. > :21:51.world of difference between devolution and further devolution
:21:52. > :21:56.where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference
:21:57. > :22:01.between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign
:22:02. > :22:06.country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those
:22:07. > :22:15.opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with
:22:16. > :22:20.pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with
:22:21. > :22:26.passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon
:22:27. > :22:30.Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to
:22:31. > :22:35.take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign
:22:36. > :22:41.over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for
:22:42. > :22:47.remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had
:22:48. > :22:51.warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland
:22:52. > :22:57.we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from
:22:58. > :23:01.that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from
:23:02. > :23:05.saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are
:23:06. > :23:10.collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand
:23:11. > :23:16.up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is
:23:17. > :23:21.perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what
:23:22. > :23:37.you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know
:23:38. > :23:47.about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the
:23:48. > :23:52.leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was
:23:53. > :23:58.being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to
:23:59. > :24:04.blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South
:24:05. > :24:13.of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.
:24:14. > :24:17.I think it is important in this debate that people from outside
:24:18. > :24:22.politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on
:24:23. > :24:27.because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody
:24:28. > :24:32.should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will
:24:33. > :24:37.happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are
:24:38. > :24:45.making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.
:24:46. > :24:52.I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,
:24:53. > :24:57.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:58. > :25:02.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:03. > :25:08.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:09. > :25:17.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:18. > :25:31.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:32. > :25:35.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:36. > :25:40.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:41. > :25:45.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:46. > :25:50.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:51. > :25:55.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:56. > :25:59.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:00. > :26:05.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:06. > :26:11.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:12. > :26:16.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:17. > :26:21.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:22. > :26:30.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:31. > :26:36.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:37. > :26:41.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:42. > :26:46.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:47. > :26:51.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:52. > :26:57.itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:58. > :27:06.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:07. > :27:09.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:10. > :27:13.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:14. > :27:19.next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories.
:27:20. > :27:25.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:26. > :27:30.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:31. > :27:35.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:36. > :27:40.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:41. > :28:09.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:10. > :28:13.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:14. > :28:16.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:17. > :28:20.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:21. > :28:25.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:26. > :28:29.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:30. > :28:34.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We
:28:35. > :28:39.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:40. > :28:44.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:45. > :28:49.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:50. > :28:52.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:53. > :28:56.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:57. > :28:59.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:00. > :29:03.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:04. > :29:08.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:09. > :29:12.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:13. > :29:15.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:16. > :29:17.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:18. > :29:22.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:23. > :29:24.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:25. > :29:26.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:27. > :29:31.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:32. > :29:40.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:41. > :29:55.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:56. > :30:00.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:01. > :30:05.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:06. > :30:08.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:09. > :30:12.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:13. > :30:16.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:17. > :30:22.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:23. > :30:27.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:28. > :30:32.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:33. > :30:36.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:37. > :30:40.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:41. > :30:44.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:45. > :30:49.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:50. > :30:52.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:53. > :30:59.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:00. > :31:02.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and
:31:03. > :31:06.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:07. > :31:12.thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:13. > :31:14.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:15. > :31:18.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:19. > :31:23.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:24. > :31:28.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:29. > :31:31.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:32. > :31:37.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:38. > :31:40.what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:41. > :31:43.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:44. > :31:47.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:48. > :31:50.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:51. > :31:53.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:54. > :31:59.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:00. > :32:03.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:04. > :32:07.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:08. > :32:12.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:13. > :32:18.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:19. > :32:21.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:22. > :32:25.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:26. > :32:29.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:30. > :32:33.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:34. > :32:36.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:37. > :32:38.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:39. > :32:41.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:42. > :32:45.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:46. > :32:48.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:49. > :32:56.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:57. > :32:59.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:00. > :33:04.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:05. > :33:12.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:13. > :33:16.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:17. > :33:21.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:22. > :33:25.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:26. > :33:28.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:29. > :33:31.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:32. > :33:34.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:35. > :33:40.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:41. > :33:46.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:47. > :33:52.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:53. > :34:02.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:03. > :34:07.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:08. > :34:11.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:12. > :34:15.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:16. > :34:21.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:22. > :34:25.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:26. > :34:28.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It
:34:29. > :34:32.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:33. > :34:36.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:37. > :34:41.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:42. > :34:46.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:47. > :34:52.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:53. > :34:59.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:00. > :35:03.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:04. > :35:10.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:11. > :35:13.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:14. > :35:17.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:18. > :35:21.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:22. > :35:27.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:28. > :35:30.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:31. > :35:32.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:33. > :35:37.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:38. > :35:41.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:42. > :35:45.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:46. > :35:49.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:50. > :35:54.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:55. > :35:59.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:00. > :36:03.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:04. > :36:08.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:09. > :36:14.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:15. > :36:21.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:22. > :36:26.you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:27. > :36:29.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:30. > :36:34.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:35. > :36:38.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:39. > :36:41.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:42. > :36:45.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:46. > :36:49.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:50. > :36:52.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:53. > :36:57.good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that
:36:58. > :37:01.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day
:37:02. > :37:06.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:07. > :37:13.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:14. > :37:19.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:20. > :37:25.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:26. > :37:30.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:31. > :37:33.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:34. > :37:37.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:38. > :37:40.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:41. > :37:44.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:45. > :37:51.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.
:37:52. > :37:54.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:55. > :38:01.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:02. > :38:07.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:08. > :38:10.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:11. > :38:14.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:15. > :38:17.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:18. > :38:23.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:24. > :38:27.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:28. > :38:33.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:34. > :38:43.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:44. > :38:48.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:49. > :38:53.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:54. > :38:57.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:58. > :39:01.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:02. > :39:03.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:04. > :39:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:08. > :39:09.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:10. > :39:17.the Week Hello and on the
:39:18. > :39:20.Sunday Politics Wales: After hundreds
:39:21. > :39:23.of years fretting about its demise, is it time to cheer up about
:39:24. > :39:26.the future of the Welsh language? We'll discuss Labour's trouble
:39:27. > :39:30.with all-women shortlists. Securing the financial future
:39:31. > :39:34.of the NHS. If you're worried about
:39:35. > :39:41.the future of the Welsh language you won't find much to cheer you up
:39:42. > :39:44.in the last census results. Governments have done their bit to
:39:45. > :39:47.foster the language but according to But the Plaid Cymru AM Lord
:39:48. > :39:53.Elis-Thomas says the figures are We'll discuss his call for
:39:54. > :39:59.a more positive campaign to protect First let's hear how he sees
:40:00. > :40:17.things from Porthmadog. My concern has always been that
:40:18. > :40:21.the census data are next to meaningless in terms of describing
:40:22. > :40:26.what is happening to language. All the census tells us is how
:40:27. > :40:30.many people have left a particular It doesn't explain to us anything
:40:31. > :40:37.about the reasons for these changes. Usually, the reasons are
:40:38. > :40:41.nothing to do with language. The people haven't given up speaking
:40:42. > :40:44.Welsh, it is the people who spoke Welsh are no longer registered on
:40:45. > :40:54.the census because they have moved. We shouldn't be thinking in terms
:40:55. > :41:00.of short-term fixes. We should be thinking in terms
:41:01. > :41:02.of defining the status of Welsh and English
:41:03. > :41:05.as official languages in Wales. I did five or six years of night
:41:06. > :41:14.classes in Pwllheli and Porthmadog. I've got an O-level in Welsh
:41:15. > :41:18.and almost got to A-level standard. My children learn Welsh at school
:41:19. > :41:24.in Cricieth where we live. I encounter in Porthmadog a lot
:41:25. > :41:29.of Welsh speaking customers coming People who have been campaigning for
:41:30. > :41:41.years have been used to campaigning against Westminster government and
:41:42. > :41:45.now they think it is appropriate to campaign in a similar way against
:41:46. > :41:49.the elected government in Wales. If there are people in Wales who
:41:50. > :41:53.still feel not enough is being done to promote the choice of languages,
:41:54. > :41:57.to create opportunities for bilingual education and so on,
:41:58. > :42:01.it is for them to produce creative solutions and propose them to
:42:02. > :42:05.government and indeed to all of us who are represented
:42:06. > :42:14.and we will respond to them. I think they are
:42:15. > :42:17.because it is a missed opportunity. The key thing always, in my view,
:42:18. > :42:24.is to seize every opportunity to persuade people who live in Wales,
:42:25. > :42:28.if they don't speak Welsh themselves, to support opportunities
:42:29. > :42:32.for others to do so or for them to be able to participate
:42:33. > :42:42.in bilingual situations. She didn't speak any English
:42:43. > :42:45.until she was 13. There always has been doom
:42:46. > :43:33.and gloom. If you go back to
:43:34. > :43:36.the mediaeval period, when 95 percent of the population spoke
:43:37. > :43:41.Welsh it was all doom and gloom. There is an attitude
:43:42. > :43:44.in mind that some people have that somehow a smaller language living
:43:45. > :43:51.next to a bigger language is always I think that is a load
:43:52. > :43:55.of nonsense in the 21st century. Everyone, or most people in the
:43:56. > :44:00.world, speak more than one language. It is quite, not just feasible,
:44:01. > :44:04.it is quite It is some sort
:44:05. > :44:12.of religion to some people, I fear. They don't believe
:44:13. > :44:17.in the conventional way of faith communities and
:44:18. > :44:19.so they have got this passion Most people don't think
:44:20. > :44:26.of language like that. It is something they want to use,
:44:27. > :44:30.they can be part of, they can be proud of and they can be especially
:44:31. > :44:33.proud, as often happens, I see it happen regularly in this part of
:44:34. > :44:38.the world, people who move in from outside Wales, the children
:44:39. > :44:41.go to the school system. Within a year or
:44:42. > :44:44.so they become fluent and they start That is a sort
:44:45. > :44:50.of Wales I want to see. And joining me
:44:51. > :44:52.in the studio is Dafydd Elis-Thomas, along with another AM, Labour's
:44:53. > :44:55.Keith Davies and Robin Farrar, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg,
:44:56. > :45:14.the Welsh language Society. The census shows fewer people
:45:15. > :45:19.speaking Welsh. Fewer places where Welsh is the majority language. You
:45:20. > :45:26.seem quite sanguine about it. The census isn't intended to examine or
:45:27. > :45:32.to produce evidence about language use. The way to plan language is by
:45:33. > :45:37.using data which is relevant. I can't wait to see the Welsh language
:45:38. > :45:43.which the government is undertaking, we will have that in 2016. That'll
:45:44. > :45:49.give us the basis to meet demand and to respond to how it describes
:45:50. > :45:56.language use in personal life, social life and in the workplace.
:45:57. > :46:01.The people who think the Welsh language is facing a crisis, you are
:46:02. > :46:07.not one of them. No, I never was. I was involved in language planning
:46:08. > :46:10.and in those days what I was trying to do was promote status and to
:46:11. > :46:14.recognise Welsh as an official language. That is important. It is
:46:15. > :46:23.even more important to market it effectively. There are organisations
:46:24. > :46:28.who are doing marvellous work in promoting language to business and
:46:29. > :46:33.communication skills, and these are the issues I want to be interested
:46:34. > :46:42.in. Too much pessimism. I you guilty of too much pessimism? As language
:46:43. > :46:46.campaigners, we're very positive. If you look at how we responded to when
:46:47. > :46:50.the census results came outcome I do believe they are meaningful, they
:46:51. > :46:59.are not everything that there a warning in those census figures, the
:47:00. > :47:03.way we responded we started a public campaign. I want to live in Welsh.
:47:04. > :47:11.That is a positive message. We published our manifesto which was
:47:12. > :47:17.precisely a set of positive recommendations, the kind of
:47:18. > :47:23.policies we feel are necessary in order to resolve that crisis, to see
:47:24. > :47:26.people being able to live in Welsh. Since then, as well, we have
:47:27. > :47:34.published our own alternative planning Bill, we have come up with
:47:35. > :47:38.policy documents in fields like education just completely essential.
:47:39. > :47:42.If we are to deal with the crisis language is facing, we have to
:47:43. > :47:48.promote it and deal with policies which affect migration patterns.
:47:49. > :47:51.Shortly after the senses you said the future of Welsh depends on Welsh
:47:52. > :47:57.language communities and they will be our main priority. What about
:47:58. > :48:00.places like Cardiff and Monmouthshire where the census
:48:01. > :48:05.showed that are more Welsh speakers. Since you be trying to inspire
:48:06. > :48:09.people in those places to speak Welsh rather than putting all the
:48:10. > :48:16.emphasis on areas where people are leaving? Both are crucially
:48:17. > :48:24.important. People in every part of Wales wanted to see the language
:48:25. > :48:26.live through the medium of files. The communities with the high
:48:27. > :48:31.percentage of speakers are essential. In some areas,
:48:32. > :48:42.overdevelopment is a particular problem. That is one of the aspects
:48:43. > :48:45.of our alternative planning Bill. If people are trying to access services
:48:46. > :48:50.through the medium of files, they have great difficulty in doing so.
:48:51. > :48:56.Let's ask Keith Davies about that. People are having difficulties
:48:57. > :49:01.accessing services, do you think that is true? The Welsh Government
:49:02. > :49:06.says this is a massive challenge. I think it is meeting the challenge.
:49:07. > :49:11.Welsh language Commissioner has worked with several companies where
:49:12. > :49:16.people have gone in and has spoken Welsh and they have been refused
:49:17. > :49:19.service. Because of what the government are doing and supporting
:49:20. > :49:22.the Welsh language Commissioner, those things are changing. Companies
:49:23. > :49:28.in Wales are seeing it is important for them, if they want their
:49:29. > :49:33.business to thrive, they support the Welsh language. In his recent
:49:34. > :49:43.statement on Welsh language policy, the First Minister announced
:49:44. > :49:48.funding. Is that really enough? Is this a measure of how seriously the
:49:49. > :49:57.government takes it? That is in the current financial year and it
:49:58. > :50:00.raises. That is also a fund for small to medium-sized enterprises
:50:01. > :50:05.where they can support the Welsh language and they can be funded for
:50:06. > :50:08.it. It is a start. We will be hearing about the financial
:50:09. > :50:13.sustainability of financial survival of the NHS. In a time of austerity,
:50:14. > :50:23.as the government have to make its priorities and Welsh isn't one. Two
:50:24. > :50:27.important things in the strategy are Welsh in the economy and Welsh in
:50:28. > :50:30.the community. That is what this money is for. It is this was the
:50:31. > :50:37.communities and get Welsh into businesses. You talk about this rosy
:50:38. > :50:40.scenario of people moving into your constituency and speaking Welsh and
:50:41. > :50:46.then there are children now willing -- winning prizes. The children have
:50:47. > :50:54.to learn Welsh in school. Is that the way forward? That is part of the
:50:55. > :50:58.national curriculum. It was introduced by the Conservative
:50:59. > :51:02.government under Margaret Thatcher. The government is now looking again
:51:03. > :51:07.at the effect of this, language teaching, especially in schools wish
:51:08. > :51:13.don't introduce Welsh. What is the one thing the government can do? I
:51:14. > :51:18.think the most important thing is to promote the language in business. At
:51:19. > :51:24.the workplace and between businesses. The work that is taking
:51:25. > :51:28.place now in terms of marketing, especially Welsh food bilingually,
:51:29. > :51:35.is brilliant. We have a product and a brand which is not Welsh or
:51:36. > :51:38.English but both. From looking at what the Welsh Language Society says
:51:39. > :51:46.and does, it seems the one thing you have prioritised is planning. Your
:51:47. > :51:51.members will 24-hour fast this week because you see tougher measures on
:51:52. > :51:56.planning. You have said the right to decline planning permission on the
:51:57. > :52:05.basis of language that exist. Or to allow. What does that mean? What do
:52:06. > :52:11.you mean by the right to decline on the basis of language? Is clear to
:52:12. > :52:15.me that planning decisions have an impact on the language. The supply
:52:16. > :52:21.of housing in different parts of Wales has an impact on where people
:52:22. > :52:24.move. Both positive and negative. The examples of people moving out of
:52:25. > :52:29.Wales because they can't get a house. I don't understand was little
:52:30. > :52:32.system you envisage that will help the Welsh language as you say you
:52:33. > :52:40.can't build a house as you speak Welsh. A detailed alternative
:52:41. > :52:43.planning Bill but we published is based on the principle that the
:52:44. > :52:49.amount of housing allowed to be built should be based on the local
:52:50. > :52:55.need. If the community needs that housing and it isn't enough in terms
:52:56. > :52:59.of existing housing stock, that is the number they should be built. It
:53:00. > :53:05.is completely at odds to how be planning system works at the moment
:53:06. > :53:14.where there are targets set centrally. Those figures...
:53:15. > :53:25.Solutions be building lots of houses and Welsh speaking areas? Not if
:53:26. > :53:30.they are not needed. As I say, the system would have other benefits as
:53:31. > :53:35.well. It would be better for the environment to base these decisions
:53:36. > :53:40.on a local need. In the language policy the government talks about
:53:41. > :53:44.successfully changing people's behaviour on smoking and plastic
:53:45. > :53:49.bags, there is a law under punishment. Does the government need
:53:50. > :53:54.to introduce stronger element of compulsion to make people speak
:53:55. > :53:57.Welsh and businesses to use Welsh? Certainly, encouragement and
:53:58. > :54:04.support. That is the most important thing. Into the local economy. If we
:54:05. > :54:10.want people to stay in the Welsh speaking parts we need jobs for
:54:11. > :54:13.them. It is supporting people, that is what it is about.
:54:14. > :54:17.If the Welsh NHS is going to provide better care and survive financially
:54:18. > :54:21.then a huge culture change is needed, according to a health expert
:54:22. > :54:26.Professor Sir Mansel Aylward is leading the Bevan Commission
:54:27. > :54:29.which is looking at what's called "prudent healthcare".
:54:30. > :54:32.It's a change being driven by the Health Minister Mark Drakeford who
:54:33. > :54:36.has said that around a fifth of the work of the NHS doesn't actually
:54:37. > :54:43.Bethan Lewis went to meet Professor Aylward to find out more.
:54:44. > :54:48.This is the Keir Hardie University Health Park in Merthyr Tydfil.
:54:49. > :54:51.A state of the art centre which brings together a range
:54:52. > :54:55.of health and social care facilities including GP services,
:54:56. > :55:00.a public health team providing dietary advice and dental services.
:55:01. > :55:03.We run the mobile dental unit from here.
:55:04. > :55:08.We go out and visit homes, residential homes.
:55:09. > :55:12.A vision of how health care can be delivered in the future.
:55:13. > :55:16.And one in which local boy Professor Sir Mansel Aylward had a key role.
:55:17. > :55:23.His mission now is to push forward a major shift in the NHS's culture
:55:24. > :55:28.and to adopt what has been labelled a prudent approach.
:55:29. > :55:31.It is very simple really although people have tried to think
:55:32. > :55:37.Basically, it is a way to conceive, manage and deliver health care
:55:38. > :55:46.A way whereby someone delivers the most appropriate treatment,
:55:47. > :55:49.intervention or management plan, to the patient which is based
:55:50. > :55:57.Which is something we know will work and will achieve tangible outcomes.
:55:58. > :56:00.The first point is, shouldn't this be happening anyway?
:56:01. > :56:03.People would be quite astounded that most health care, that all health
:56:04. > :56:15.I've spent much of my life trying to sell this and saying we
:56:16. > :56:19.shouldn't be doing this because there is no evidence it works.
:56:20. > :56:22.And not just me, many, many others who are far more important
:56:23. > :56:29.What we wanted to do at prudent health care is to get
:56:30. > :56:36.Get something that people will be able to understand, that they want
:56:37. > :56:41.and, yes, that will show them that what they thought was the way
:56:42. > :56:46.in which medicine and health care was practised should be that way.
:56:47. > :56:49.What impact will it mean for the patient?
:56:50. > :56:51.How will their experience be different?
:56:52. > :56:53.Could you give me an example of that.
:56:54. > :56:56.If they go to see their GP what would be different?
:56:57. > :56:58.There must be a conversation between the doctor or the health
:56:59. > :57:06.In that conversation they both must agree on a way forward,
:57:07. > :57:09.whether it is in operation, a treatment plan or whatever.
:57:10. > :57:16.Many people just say, I will do what you tell me, doctor, or whatever.
:57:17. > :57:27.And if the citizen understands fully what's before them in a treatment
:57:28. > :57:31.plan and what is likely to be the outcome, and we now say the outcome
:57:32. > :57:35.must be a benefit, that will make a difference in the way patients and
:57:36. > :57:40.citizens relate to the health care professions
:57:41. > :57:44.but not just relate to them, perhaps will understand more the
:57:45. > :57:49.problems there are in deciding the effect of a particular treatment.
:57:50. > :57:54.There is some scepticism in some parts about this idea.
:57:55. > :57:57.People are saying it is another way of rationing health care.
:57:58. > :58:05.As far as where we are now, money isn't an issue.
:58:06. > :58:10.He wants to see how prudent health care works.
:58:11. > :58:14.When we talk about rationing, yes, we are rationing now.
:58:15. > :58:17.But what we do now is we ration on time.
:58:18. > :58:21.People have to wait to get their operation, the intervention to see
:58:22. > :58:25.their GP, perhaps they don't see them with the system as it is now.
:58:26. > :58:30.What we have got to say is, yes, there is rationing, but let's
:58:31. > :58:36.Let's ration on the basis of clinical need.
:58:37. > :58:41.Let's ration, if we call it that, in regard to delivering the best
:58:42. > :58:46.service to the patient at the right time which is evidence-based.
:58:47. > :58:50.If that is called rationing, is it rationing to say to someone,
:58:51. > :58:55.actually, we want to deliver for you the best treatment there is based on
:58:56. > :59:04.If that is rationing, well, I welcome it.
:59:05. > :59:08.Only 13 women have ever represented Wales in the House of Commons.
:59:09. > :59:12.The Labour Party's solution has been to select candidates
:59:13. > :59:17.Trouble is, it can annoy party members.
:59:18. > :59:19.Most recently in the Cynon Valley where they've gone on strike.
:59:20. > :59:24.Cathy Owens, Labour member and former Welsh Government special
:59:25. > :59:39.This situation in the can and family is inconvenient for the Labour
:59:40. > :59:44.Party. I think the Labour Party and its members had democratically
:59:45. > :59:52.chosen to introduce this positive way of getting more women selected.
:59:53. > :59:57.As a party, it was done twice as better than the nearest party with
:59:58. > :00:02.women representation. People weren't happy about it when they had
:00:03. > :00:11.training at the National Assembly. Those that represent the members --
:00:12. > :00:14.all the members in the can Valley? . We had to make some progress. No one
:00:15. > :00:20.has come up with a better idea. Is there a problem with a lack of
:00:21. > :00:27.transparency? People who are unhappy, they say they are unhappy
:00:28. > :00:32.that some seats have all women short lists and some don't. However these
:00:33. > :00:36.decisions made? Let's not suggest that this is an outlier. Half of all
:00:37. > :00:49.the target seats have all women short lists. It is only -- the only
:00:50. > :00:55.way of doing it. 51 of them were all on short lists. At least half of all
:00:56. > :01:00.the seats are going to be all women short lists because we have such a
:01:01. > :01:06.ladder to climb. We need to get more women in parliament. Only 31% of
:01:07. > :01:12.Labour MPs are women but that is better than the Tories at about 16%
:01:13. > :01:16.and the Liberal Democrats at 12%. Plaid Cymru will hopefully have one
:01:17. > :01:23.woman in Parliament. They could be fewer Welsh MPs, women MPs. That is
:01:24. > :01:27.why Cynon Valley is an important sea to think about. If the seats stay
:01:28. > :01:35.the same, and we didn't have all women short lists, we would have
:01:36. > :01:39.even fewer women MPs in Wales. That is unacceptable. This party have
:01:40. > :01:43.more work to do to carry members with it? The members are with its
:01:44. > :01:54.because the members have voted for it. I think if we did a poll of
:01:55. > :02:00.members in the Labour Party it showed that is huge support. If we
:02:01. > :02:05.did a poll of members Cynon Valley, there is huge support for equality
:02:06. > :02:09.and fairness. A yes or no question. Do you see a similar situation
:02:10. > :02:10.elsewhere? We will in 50% of the seats...
:02:11. > :02:16.progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had
:02:17. > :02:19.longer for that. It is all over to you.
:02:20. > :02:21.What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?
:02:22. > :02:24.Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support
:02:25. > :02:28.And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband
:02:29. > :02:48.We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the
:02:49. > :02:53.head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal
:02:54. > :02:57.polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in
:02:58. > :03:06.taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are
:03:07. > :03:11.now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years
:03:12. > :03:15.ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was
:03:16. > :03:19.still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher
:03:20. > :03:24.unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good
:03:25. > :03:29.story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen
:03:30. > :03:34.than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes
:03:35. > :03:39.problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public
:03:40. > :03:44.sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue
:03:45. > :03:50.of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour
:03:51. > :03:53.support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning
:03:54. > :03:56.squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular
:03:57. > :04:00.strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who
:04:01. > :04:04.funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail
:04:05. > :04:09.this ef are I time there is a -- every time there is a strike, this
:04:10. > :04:13.idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.
:04:14. > :04:17.Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to
:04:18. > :04:26.talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal
:04:27. > :04:29.for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike
:04:30. > :04:33.law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to
:04:34. > :04:38.stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze
:04:39. > :04:43.or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till
:04:44. > :04:48.2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.
:04:49. > :04:53.This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010. At
:04:54. > :04:57.that time, the TUC and the Labour Leadership thought there was going
:04:58. > :05:02.to be a great movement out there, not a kind of 1926 movement, but a
:05:03. > :05:09.great movement out there. This time round, I think the climate is
:05:10. > :05:13.different. Ed Miliband talking about wage increases being outstripped by
:05:14. > :05:17.inflation and people not seeing the recovery coming through into their
:05:18. > :05:24.pay packets. Slightly more tricky territory for the Tories. If The
:05:25. > :05:30.Labour machine cannot make something out of Matt Hancock telling this
:05:31. > :05:35.programme there will be no increase in pay for workers in the public
:05:36. > :05:38.sector till 2018, they have a problem? They do have a problem.
:05:39. > :05:42.They have to say always that they would not just turn the money taps
:05:43. > :05:46.on. That is the dance that you are locked in all the time. Can we all
:05:47. > :05:54.agree that Alan Johnson is not going to stand against Ed Miliband this
:05:55. > :05:58.side of the election? Some politicians are cynical enough. I
:05:59. > :06:03.don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do we agree? There is nothing in it for
:06:04. > :06:08.Labour and certainly not for Alan Johnson. No way. It is the last
:06:09. > :06:13.thing he would want to do. There are some desperate members going around
:06:14. > :06:16.trying to find a stalking horse. Alan Johnson will not be their man.
:06:17. > :06:22.He has more important things to do on a Thursday night on BBC One!
:06:23. > :06:26.Isn't it something about the febrile state of the Labour Party that
:06:27. > :06:31.Labour, some Labour backbenchers or in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the
:06:32. > :06:35.idea of this nonsense? If there was a time to do it, maybe it was in the
:06:36. > :06:39.middle of the Parliament. With ten months left, you are stuck with the
:06:40. > :06:46.leader you chose in 2010. I remember them failing to understand this in
:06:47. > :06:50.January of 2010 when there was that last push against Gordon Brown. Five
:06:51. > :07:03.months before an election, they were trying to do something. The deputy
:07:04. > :07:06.Leader of the Labour Party had something to do with it. There is
:07:07. > :07:16.deep unease about Ed Miliband. There are problems but Alan Johnson is not
:07:17. > :07:19.the man. I think there is no chance of it!
:07:20. > :07:21.If the most recent polls are to be believed, David Cameron appears to
:07:22. > :07:25.have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - clawing back some support from UKIP
:07:26. > :07:28.after he very publicly opposed the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker
:07:29. > :07:31.to the post of EU Commission president. Last week Nigel Farage
:07:32. > :07:34.took his newly enlarged UKIP contingent to Strasbourg
:07:35. > :07:48.for the first session of the new European Parliament.
:07:49. > :07:56.These two gentlemen have nothing to say today. It was the usual dull,
:07:57. > :08:00.looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that
:08:01. > :08:04.want democracy, we are the ones that want nation state, we are the ones
:08:05. > :08:12.that want a global future for our countries, not to be trapped inside
:08:13. > :08:13.this museum. Thank you. I can see we will be covering more of the
:08:14. > :08:20.European Parliament at last! It's rumoured he's likely to stand
:08:21. > :08:23.in the next general election in the Kent constituency of Thanet South,
:08:24. > :08:26.currently held by the Conservatives. Last week the Conservatives selected
:08:27. > :08:28.their candidate for the seat - Craig McKinlay -
:08:29. > :08:39.a former deputy leader of UKIP. Did you get the short straw, you
:08:40. > :08:42.have got a seat that Nigel Farage is probably going to fight? Not in the
:08:43. > :08:48.slightest. It is a seat that I know well. It is a seat that there's
:08:49. > :08:52.obvious euro scepticism there and my qualities are right for that seat.
:08:53. > :08:58.UKIP got some very good... What are your qualities? Deep-seated
:08:59. > :09:02.conservatism, I was a founder of UKIP, I wrote the script back in
:09:03. > :09:10.1992. My heart is Conservative values. They are best put out to the
:09:11. > :09:15.public by me in South Thanet. It would be ridiculous if Nigel chose
:09:16. > :09:18.that seat. We need a building block of people like myself to form a
:09:19. > :09:21.Government if we are going to have that referendum that is long
:09:22. > :09:26.overdue. I don't think he's got the luxury of losing somebody who is
:09:27. > :09:30.very similar in views to him. He would be best look looking
:09:31. > :09:34.elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to stand in your seat, would you? It
:09:35. > :09:38.would seem to make very little sense. People would say what is UKIP
:09:39. > :09:43.all about if it's fighting people who have got a similar view to them?
:09:44. > :09:46.We do need to build a majority Government for the Conservatives
:09:47. > :09:50.next year because only us are offering that clear in-out
:09:51. > :09:54.referendum. I want to be one of those building blocks that is part
:09:55. > :09:59.of that renegotiation that we will put to public in a referendum.
:10:00. > :10:10.Sounds to me like if the choice is between you and Nigel Farage next
:10:11. > :10:14.May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The
:10:15. > :10:18.danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of
:10:19. > :10:22.the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of
:10:23. > :10:26.the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of
:10:27. > :10:36.Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have
:10:37. > :10:43.full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining
:10:44. > :10:51.us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a
:10:52. > :10:57.bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's
:10:58. > :11:02.isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,
:11:03. > :11:06.but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.
:11:07. > :11:10.Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the
:11:11. > :11:14.bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued
:11:15. > :11:26.that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.
:11:27. > :11:32.It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 2004
:11:33. > :11:37.European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something
:11:38. > :11:41.similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they
:11:42. > :11:46.fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They
:11:47. > :11:50.are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster
:11:51. > :11:54.bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in
:11:55. > :11:59.the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you
:12:00. > :12:03.were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,
:12:04. > :12:14.the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This
:12:15. > :12:19.is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion
:12:20. > :12:22.is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a
:12:23. > :12:27.different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.
:12:28. > :12:30.He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered
:12:31. > :12:35.accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local
:12:36. > :12:39.people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in
:12:40. > :12:42.real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of
:12:43. > :12:45.the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David
:12:46. > :12:50.Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to
:12:51. > :12:54.MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't
:12:55. > :13:00.take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,
:13:01. > :13:05.quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he
:13:06. > :13:12.said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold
:13:13. > :13:16.Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said
:13:17. > :13:19.darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.
:13:20. > :13:22.Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back
:13:23. > :13:26.at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:27. > :13:31.next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll
:13:32. > :13:36.be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:37. > :13:44.it's the Sunday Politics.