:00:09. > :00:12.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:13. > :00:15.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:16. > :00:54.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:55. > :00:59.Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north
:01:00. > :01:06.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:07. > :01:12.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:13. > :01:17.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:18. > :01:24.got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to
:01:25. > :01:26.The Shadow Welsh Secretary at the Labour conference says
:01:27. > :01:30.the party will respond to the First Minister's complain
:01:31. > :01:39.that Wales is being short-changed. powers and more freedom to spend.
:01:40. > :01:48.But what is the next devolution step for the capital? With me, the best
:01:49. > :01:51.and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they
:01:52. > :01:55.pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have
:01:56. > :02:02.done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates
:02:03. > :02:06.from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers
:02:07. > :02:08.for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives
:02:09. > :02:14.Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which
:02:15. > :02:20.has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question
:02:21. > :02:26.has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre
:02:27. > :02:33.stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was
:02:34. > :02:36.put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote,
:02:37. > :02:44.there was nothing about English-only votes. It was unconditional? The
:02:45. > :02:47.Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the
:02:48. > :02:53.proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this
:02:54. > :02:59.issue. That was very cautious. -- cautiously. These proposals will not
:03:00. > :03:02.get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only
:03:03. > :03:06.issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.
:03:07. > :03:09.Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link
:03:10. > :03:11.between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,
:03:12. > :03:28.is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away
:03:29. > :03:35.these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they
:03:36. > :03:39.weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.
:03:40. > :03:42.Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't
:03:43. > :03:47.want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight
:03:48. > :03:51.timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,
:03:52. > :03:54.most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish
:03:55. > :04:02.parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions
:04:03. > :04:05.in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional
:04:06. > :04:11.questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple
:04:12. > :04:14.reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories
:04:15. > :04:19.have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip
:04:20. > :04:24.out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a
:04:25. > :04:26.partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow
:04:27. > :04:32.through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,
:04:33. > :04:38.but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.
:04:39. > :04:41.It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.
:04:42. > :04:48.You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard
:04:49. > :04:52.to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for
:04:53. > :04:58.English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs
:04:59. > :05:01.get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London
:05:02. > :05:05.and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were
:05:06. > :05:10.before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed
:05:11. > :05:13.in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and
:05:14. > :05:17.the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the
:05:18. > :05:21.time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that
:05:22. > :05:26.would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see
:05:27. > :05:29.off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour
:05:30. > :05:32.backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws.
:05:33. > :05:38.Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases
:05:39. > :05:42.unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to
:05:43. > :05:46.the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about
:05:47. > :05:51.20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a
:05:52. > :05:57.coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to
:05:58. > :05:59.be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should
:06:00. > :06:06.probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.
:06:07. > :06:11.But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one
:06:12. > :06:13.piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep
:06:14. > :06:16.something called the Barnett Formula.
:06:17. > :06:19.It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.
:06:20. > :06:21.And it's how the UK government decides how much
:06:22. > :06:24.public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:06:25. > :06:26.It's controversial, because it's led to public spending
:06:27. > :06:28.being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.
:06:29. > :06:30.Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.
:06:31. > :06:36.I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.
:06:37. > :06:44.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the
:06:45. > :06:50.Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page
:06:51. > :06:55.of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial
:06:56. > :06:57.devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible
:06:58. > :07:01.not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been
:07:02. > :07:05.promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,
:07:06. > :07:08.but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern
:07:09. > :07:12.Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue
:07:13. > :07:17.across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We
:07:18. > :07:20.have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to
:07:21. > :07:23.England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount
:07:24. > :07:28.spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West
:07:29. > :07:32.and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the
:07:33. > :07:36.elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and
:07:37. > :07:42.the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a
:07:43. > :07:46.sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the
:07:47. > :07:51.Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in
:07:52. > :07:57.contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would
:07:58. > :08:01.confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union
:08:02. > :08:06.on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft
:08:07. > :08:09.poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect
:08:10. > :08:12.and if anything was counter-productive to the overall
:08:13. > :08:17.result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted
:08:18. > :08:21.for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the
:08:22. > :08:25.promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would
:08:26. > :08:29.have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal
:08:30. > :08:32.Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett
:08:33. > :08:37.Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,
:08:38. > :08:42.and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's
:08:43. > :08:45.trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in
:08:46. > :08:54.rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK
:08:55. > :08:57.-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending
:08:58. > :09:05.formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the
:09:06. > :09:08.oil revenues it sends to London. Scotland is only getting back on
:09:09. > :09:11.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that
:09:12. > :09:19.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let
:09:20. > :09:25.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the
:09:26. > :09:31.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A
:09:32. > :09:35.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting
:09:36. > :09:38.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need
:09:39. > :09:41.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the
:09:42. > :09:47.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and
:09:48. > :09:51.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we
:09:52. > :09:56.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,
:09:57. > :09:59.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local
:10:00. > :10:02.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland
:10:03. > :10:08.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The
:10:09. > :10:12.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for
:10:13. > :10:15.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't
:10:16. > :10:18.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?
:10:19. > :10:23.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the
:10:24. > :10:29.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth
:10:30. > :10:35.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and
:10:36. > :10:38.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot
:10:39. > :10:43.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is
:10:44. > :10:47.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should
:10:48. > :10:50.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's
:10:51. > :10:55.deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they
:10:56. > :10:56.locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for
:10:57. > :10:58.joining us. The man responsible
:10:59. > :11:00.for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within
:11:01. > :11:03.touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic
:11:04. > :11:05.announcements, and he gave us another on Friday
:11:06. > :11:08.when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute
:11:09. > :11:12.to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to
:11:13. > :11:14.Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with
:11:15. > :11:38.the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole
:11:39. > :11:41.place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what
:11:42. > :11:45.you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them
:11:46. > :11:48.here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy
:11:49. > :11:52.Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the
:11:53. > :11:57.turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the
:11:58. > :12:09.electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare
:12:10. > :12:15.Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,
:12:16. > :12:20.and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together
:12:21. > :12:26.campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in
:12:27. > :12:29.100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you
:12:30. > :12:39.think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around
:12:40. > :12:44.five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's
:12:45. > :12:48.biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for
:12:49. > :12:53.areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have
:12:54. > :12:56.you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many
:12:57. > :13:00.copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes
:13:01. > :13:06.campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one
:13:07. > :13:11.of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,
:13:12. > :13:16.has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC
:13:17. > :13:21.has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the
:13:22. > :13:25.no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the
:13:26. > :13:32.numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in
:13:33. > :13:36.this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no
:13:37. > :13:42.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum
:13:43. > :13:47.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has
:13:48. > :13:51.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of
:13:52. > :13:54.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more
:13:55. > :13:58.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.
:13:59. > :14:02.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:14:03. > :14:07.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,
:14:08. > :14:10.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:14:11. > :14:17.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same
:14:18. > :14:22.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we
:14:23. > :14:29.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?
:14:30. > :14:36.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not
:14:37. > :14:39.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex
:14:40. > :14:46.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my
:14:47. > :14:54.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,
:14:55. > :14:57.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the
:14:58. > :15:03.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.
:15:04. > :15:09.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows
:15:10. > :15:13.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in
:15:14. > :15:19.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to
:15:20. > :15:23.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it,
:15:24. > :15:28.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we
:15:29. > :15:32.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I
:15:33. > :15:38.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch
:15:39. > :15:47.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not
:15:48. > :15:53.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have
:15:54. > :15:58.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility
:15:59. > :16:03.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need
:16:04. > :16:06.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,
:16:07. > :16:11.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future
:16:12. > :16:16.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP
:16:17. > :16:20.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they
:16:21. > :16:24.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the
:16:25. > :16:30.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were
:16:31. > :16:36.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the
:16:37. > :16:42.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought
:16:43. > :16:47.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the
:16:48. > :16:50.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at
:16:51. > :16:54.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real
:16:55. > :16:59.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of
:17:00. > :17:03.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a
:17:04. > :17:08.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the
:17:09. > :17:13.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only
:17:14. > :17:20.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city.
:17:21. > :17:25.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an
:17:26. > :17:31.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,
:17:32. > :17:36.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In
:17:37. > :17:40.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is
:17:41. > :17:44.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,
:17:45. > :17:50.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong
:17:51. > :17:55.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do
:17:56. > :18:00.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been
:18:01. > :18:04.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give
:18:05. > :18:08.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that
:18:09. > :18:14.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the
:18:15. > :18:20.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,
:18:21. > :18:23.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the
:18:24. > :18:26.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the
:18:27. > :18:33.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met
:18:34. > :18:36.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that
:18:37. > :18:43.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.
:18:44. > :18:47.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any
:18:48. > :18:53.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer
:18:54. > :18:58.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be
:18:59. > :19:02.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I
:19:03. > :19:06.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,
:19:07. > :19:10.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political
:19:11. > :19:14.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an
:19:15. > :19:18.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.
:19:19. > :19:23.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which
:19:24. > :19:31.carried the Yes Campaign so far, almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch
:19:32. > :19:40.put his Scottish Sun behind you, would have that made the difference?
:19:41. > :19:47.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not
:19:48. > :19:52.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure
:19:53. > :19:59.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other
:20:00. > :20:01.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish
:20:02. > :20:06.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced
:20:07. > :20:16.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers, I
:20:17. > :20:19.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We
:20:20. > :20:24.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I
:20:25. > :20:29.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have
:20:30. > :20:40.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if
:20:41. > :20:44.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he
:20:45. > :20:49.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has
:20:50. > :20:54.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that
:20:55. > :20:58.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for
:20:59. > :21:02.example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would
:21:03. > :21:07.argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they
:21:08. > :21:11.are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are
:21:12. > :21:17.doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You
:21:18. > :21:21.don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to
:21:22. > :21:24.their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing
:21:25. > :21:29.on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change
:21:30. > :21:33.in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in
:21:34. > :21:37.carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from
:21:38. > :21:40.UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England
:21:41. > :21:45.which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English
:21:46. > :21:49.matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable
:21:50. > :21:55.object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.
:21:56. > :21:58.The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the
:21:59. > :22:03.last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now
:22:04. > :22:09.engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded
:22:10. > :22:15.to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that
:22:16. > :22:18.are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching
:22:19. > :22:25.this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the
:22:26. > :22:31.opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the
:22:32. > :22:39.back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for
:22:40. > :22:46.the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from
:22:47. > :22:52.their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I
:22:53. > :22:56.think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There
:22:57. > :23:01.have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%
:23:02. > :23:06.increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than
:23:07. > :23:17.that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the
:23:18. > :23:21.opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from
:23:22. > :23:27.politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday,
:23:28. > :23:33.coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,
:23:34. > :23:37.which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line
:23:38. > :23:42.of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,
:23:43. > :23:50.rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in
:23:51. > :23:57.the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.
:23:58. > :24:00.So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see
:24:01. > :24:08.you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?
:24:09. > :24:12.Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of
:24:13. > :24:16.Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to
:24:17. > :24:20.serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I
:24:21. > :24:24.have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a
:24:25. > :24:31.chore. I'm not saying they didn't do it properly, I am sure they did. But
:24:32. > :24:34.I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of
:24:35. > :24:37.Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good
:24:38. > :24:41.observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with
:24:42. > :24:52.being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it
:24:53. > :25:02.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! Thanks for joining us. Great
:25:03. > :25:05.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the
:25:06. > :25:10.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven
:25:11. > :25:16.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what
:25:17. > :25:21.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for
:25:22. > :25:23.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an
:25:24. > :25:28.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.
:25:29. > :25:32.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public
:25:33. > :25:36.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them
:25:37. > :25:41.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.
:25:42. > :25:45.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the
:25:46. > :25:51.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to
:25:52. > :25:54.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with
:25:55. > :25:58.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too
:25:59. > :26:04.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the
:26:05. > :26:09.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the
:26:10. > :26:16.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their
:26:17. > :26:22.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for
:26:23. > :26:29.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many
:26:30. > :26:32.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of
:26:33. > :26:36.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in
:26:37. > :26:40.terms of what is left and right. I think they see it in terms of what
:26:41. > :26:44.is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking
:26:45. > :26:47.about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the
:26:48. > :26:51.last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working
:26:52. > :26:54.very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are
:26:55. > :26:59.talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they
:27:00. > :27:02.want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to
:27:03. > :27:06.re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much
:27:07. > :27:09.immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions
:27:10. > :27:14.clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your
:27:15. > :27:18.characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of
:27:19. > :27:21.tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central
:27:22. > :27:28.position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority
:27:29. > :27:32.of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about
:27:33. > :27:37.immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,
:27:38. > :27:40.yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people
:27:41. > :27:44.putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if
:27:45. > :27:47.you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of
:27:48. > :27:51.benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those
:27:52. > :27:58.positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are
:27:59. > :28:03.saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left
:28:04. > :28:08.wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those
:28:09. > :28:12.positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the
:28:13. > :28:16.majority of your viewers. I don't think your viewers think the idea of
:28:17. > :28:20.the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are
:28:21. > :28:26.going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to
:28:27. > :28:30.scrap Trident, not party policy? It isn't.
:28:31. > :28:36.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at
:28:37. > :28:42.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.
:28:43. > :28:48.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the
:28:49. > :28:53.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are
:28:54. > :28:55.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our
:28:56. > :28:59.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at
:29:00. > :29:04.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's
:29:05. > :29:12.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people
:29:13. > :29:16.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a
:29:17. > :29:21.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.
:29:22. > :29:24.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations
:29:25. > :29:28.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many
:29:29. > :29:32.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do
:29:33. > :29:36.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about
:29:37. > :29:39.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the
:29:40. > :29:43.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I
:29:44. > :29:53.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in
:29:54. > :29:55.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your
:29:56. > :29:57.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the
:29:58. > :30:02.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have
:30:03. > :30:08.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any
:30:09. > :30:11.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people
:30:12. > :30:14.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of
:30:15. > :30:18.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been
:30:19. > :30:23.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should
:30:24. > :30:27.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?
:30:28. > :30:31.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you
:30:32. > :30:36.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM
:30:37. > :30:40.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership
:30:41. > :30:45.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.
:30:46. > :30:50.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be
:30:51. > :30:57.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our
:30:58. > :31:01.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do
:31:02. > :31:04.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to
:31:05. > :31:08.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is
:31:09. > :31:11.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,
:31:12. > :31:18.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the
:31:19. > :31:25.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of
:31:26. > :31:28.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't
:31:29. > :31:31.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity
:31:32. > :31:36.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK
:31:37. > :31:41.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it
:31:42. > :31:45.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes
:31:46. > :31:51.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see
:31:52. > :31:54.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been
:31:55. > :31:57.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making
:31:58. > :32:02.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not
:32:03. > :32:09.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can
:32:10. > :32:13.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport
:32:14. > :32:16.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of
:32:17. > :32:20.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to
:32:21. > :32:24.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different
:32:25. > :32:27.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is
:32:28. > :32:32.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people
:32:33. > :32:35.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities
:32:36. > :32:40.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in
:32:41. > :32:44.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in
:32:45. > :32:49.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed
:32:50. > :32:53.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.
:32:54. > :32:57.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to
:32:58. > :33:01.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being
:33:02. > :33:05.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax
:33:06. > :33:09.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper
:33:10. > :33:15.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put
:33:16. > :33:19.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you
:33:20. > :33:23.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I
:33:24. > :33:27.can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the
:33:28. > :33:31.principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will
:33:32. > :33:34.have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the
:33:35. > :33:39.Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it
:33:40. > :33:43.enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,
:33:44. > :33:48.which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England
:33:49. > :33:52.get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go --
:33:53. > :33:55.local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have
:33:56. > :33:59.looked at what the government has done which is having already
:34:00. > :34:03.deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier
:34:04. > :34:10.communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has
:34:11. > :34:12.worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary
:34:13. > :34:18.consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well,
:34:19. > :34:23.when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you
:34:24. > :34:27.look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per
:34:28. > :34:33.capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending
:34:34. > :34:39.in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why
:34:40. > :34:43.is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more
:34:44. > :34:47.equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the
:34:48. > :34:52.Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is
:34:53. > :34:55.the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does
:34:56. > :35:00.it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted
:35:01. > :35:02.with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where
:35:03. > :35:06.maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this
:35:07. > :35:09.separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against
:35:10. > :35:13.each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for
:35:14. > :35:17.over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.
:35:18. > :35:22.Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it
:35:23. > :35:26.by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is
:35:27. > :35:32.all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much
:35:33. > :35:38.of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work
:35:39. > :35:44.has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The
:35:45. > :35:49.policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at
:35:50. > :35:52.the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would
:35:53. > :35:57.therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less
:35:58. > :36:01.in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident
:36:02. > :36:04.that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm
:36:05. > :36:10.asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an
:36:11. > :36:15.extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they
:36:16. > :36:19.get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody
:36:20. > :36:23.on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of
:36:24. > :36:28.?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and
:36:29. > :36:36.benefits. How much do they keep? I cannot give you an exact figure. Why
:36:37. > :36:39.don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are
:36:40. > :36:42.talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I
:36:43. > :36:49.would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a
:36:50. > :36:52.marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60% and they will not keep most of this
:36:53. > :36:57.increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you
:36:58. > :37:02.haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give
:37:03. > :37:06.you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?
:37:07. > :37:09.Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are
:37:10. > :37:12.confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with
:37:13. > :37:15.the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise
:37:16. > :37:19.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I
:37:20. > :37:24.said, the economy is recovering, great, but we know, at the moment,
:37:25. > :37:27.it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're
:37:28. > :37:30.determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option. And
:37:31. > :37:36.even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a
:37:37. > :37:38.good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.
:37:39. > :37:40.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We
:37:41. > :37:43.say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for
:37:44. > :37:48.Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to
:37:49. > :37:51.talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts
:37:52. > :38:08.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:09. > :38:10.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:38:11. > :38:13.As we digest Scotland's No, the chairman of the
:38:14. > :38:16.Commons' Welsh Affairs Committee says allowing Welsh and Scottish MPs
:38:17. > :38:19.to continue to vote on English affairs is "wrong and divisive".
:38:20. > :38:23.We'll hear what shadow Welsh secretary Owen Smith makes of that.
:38:24. > :38:27.The leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats wants
:38:28. > :38:29.a cross-party consensus, but with splits emerging in Westminster,
:38:30. > :38:39.Now the political parties are deciding how to respond to
:38:40. > :38:44.The ramifications of the referendum are being felt right
:38:45. > :38:54.After a long campaign, the emotion was palpable.
:38:55. > :38:57.In the end, the No camp had a bigger margin than many polls predicted.
:38:58. > :39:01.Yet, more than 1.6 million Scots voted to leave the United Kingdom.
:39:02. > :39:07.It is absolutely right that a new and fair settlement for Scotland
:39:08. > :39:10.should be accompanied by a new and fair settlement that applies to
:39:11. > :39:17.In Wales there are proposals to give the Welsh government
:39:18. > :39:23.I want Wales to be at the heart of the debate on how to make our United
:39:24. > :39:30.The First Minister played his part in the Scottish referendum campaign,
:39:31. > :39:36.He says Wales deserves something from London.
:39:37. > :39:40.Whitehall has to be careful not to give the impression that
:39:41. > :39:46.in order to get noticed you need 25 years of war or you need
:39:47. > :39:55.It is absolutely right to point out that it is a very dangerous message
:39:56. > :39:58.to send that if you cause a problem then you get noticed.
:39:59. > :40:01.I think it is absolutely right to say that we in Wales,
:40:02. > :40:05.because we have had neither of these things, we deserve to be listened to
:40:06. > :40:12.and it is important that we have a strong voice around that table.
:40:13. > :40:15.The First Minister has joined his party in opposing
:40:16. > :40:17.David Cameron's plan for English-only votes in Parliament.
:40:18. > :40:19.The Welsh Secretary says the UK government is talking to
:40:20. > :40:22.the First Minister, even though they did not hear his plea for talks
:40:23. > :40:25.I had a conversation with Carwyn Jones myself
:40:26. > :40:29.and the Prime Minister has spoken to the First Minister as well, and both
:40:30. > :40:35.There's a lot we agree on in terms of how we make sure that Wales'
:40:36. > :40:38.voice is heard, giving reality to that commitment that Wales is at the
:40:39. > :40:42.heart of the debate, but also ideas that Carywn Jones shared in terms
:40:43. > :40:50.There is clearly got to be a lot more discussion in the days,
:40:51. > :40:56.The leader of Plaid Cymru wanted Scotland to vote Yes and says it is
:40:57. > :40:58.not just the present occupiers of Downing Street who should listen
:40:59. > :41:05.The test for the Welsh First Minister is what appears in Labour's
:41:06. > :41:13.It is very warm words from him this morning but I know for
:41:14. > :41:17.a fact that there are difficulties within the Labour Party in terms
:41:18. > :41:22.The wording in the manifesto will be his great test on this.
:41:23. > :41:27.Constitutional reform is flavour of the month.
:41:28. > :41:31.Among visitors to Abergavenny Food Festival yesterday, David Davis,
:41:32. > :41:36.the local MP who chairs the Welsh Affairs Committee in Westminster.
:41:37. > :41:41.He told me David Cameron is right, English matters should be decided
:41:42. > :41:49.Allowing Welsh MPs like him to vote on them is divisive
:41:50. > :41:56.I asked him whether the response to the Scottish vote had been ad hoc.
:41:57. > :41:59.When it was set up in the first place, we were told that
:42:00. > :42:02.devolution would be a process not an event, and the clear implication
:42:03. > :42:04.was that extra powers would keep on coming, although nobody could
:42:05. > :42:12.We had further powers in 2005 in a referendum.
:42:13. > :42:14.And similar things happened in Scotland.
:42:15. > :42:17.I think the government recognises that can no longer go on.
:42:18. > :42:20.We have to have a lasting settlement and they are going to think through
:42:21. > :42:25.all of the implications, which essentially means England.
:42:26. > :42:30.I do not think they needed to go down this route in the first place.
:42:31. > :42:33.The only way to keep the union together would be to have
:42:34. > :42:37.some sort of federal solution which is fair to England, Scotland,
:42:38. > :42:43.It may even mean giving some extra powers to Wales, which is something
:42:44. > :42:47.I would not like to see, but it is a better option than further moves
:42:48. > :42:50.towards independence coming from Wales and from Scotland.
:42:51. > :42:54.I think we need to lock everything in place finally.
:42:55. > :42:59.What is your position on the way that extra powers were
:43:00. > :43:02.offered to Scotland later in the referendum campaign?
:43:03. > :43:05.I thought it was always clear that extra powers would go to Scotland
:43:06. > :43:12.What happened in the last few days is that the party leaders went out
:43:13. > :43:16.of their way to remind everyone of that fact, so for those of us who
:43:17. > :43:20.had been following the double debate closely, it was not a secret.
:43:21. > :43:23.You do not think it was a panic measure?
:43:24. > :43:25.I think they decided at the last minute that perhaps people
:43:26. > :43:28.in Scotland were not as aware of it as they might have been.
:43:29. > :43:32.Those of us who follow our politics closely were aware that
:43:33. > :43:36.Scotland would get extra powers if they voted No but perhaps that
:43:37. > :43:39.had got lost somehow in the debate, and I think they were right to
:43:40. > :43:43.Some say it is not proper for the Prime Minister
:43:44. > :43:47.and other two main party leaders to offer more devolution in this way.
:43:48. > :43:50.As a Conservative MP, were you consulted?
:43:51. > :43:54.No, I wasn't, but it was always something that was going to happen.
:43:55. > :43:58.What I did make very clear before the referendum was that I do
:43:59. > :44:02.not believe we can simply hand over further powers to Scotland and Wales
:44:03. > :44:04.without resolving the English question and the whole future
:44:05. > :44:11.What had disturbed me is that under successive governments we have been
:44:12. > :44:14.too quick to hand out powers to the Scottish parliament and
:44:15. > :44:17.to Wales without thinking to ourselves,
:44:18. > :44:22.My frustration is that every time in Wales...
:44:23. > :44:29.First of all the Assembly was set up, then extra legislative powers,
:44:30. > :44:35.Each time I heard people saying, this is it, we have everything we
:44:36. > :44:39.need, we can just get on with the job, and each time within months,
:44:40. > :44:42.or sometimes within days, people were calling for more powers.
:44:43. > :44:46.Carywn Jones used this phrase, we have all the tools in the box,
:44:47. > :44:50.but even before the referendum he was saying if Scotland get this we
:44:51. > :44:55.There has been no discipline, no thinking it through, no thought
:44:56. > :45:00.Labour MPs are jumping up and down saying we cannot do
:45:01. > :45:05.They opened a Pandora's box in the first place and pushed
:45:06. > :45:07.for devolution and this is precisely what I predicted would
:45:08. > :45:14.If we do not do something about this, Scotland will get extra
:45:15. > :45:18.powers, Wales will get them within a year or two, Scotland will go
:45:19. > :45:21.for another referendum in about 15 years and possibly win.
:45:22. > :45:25.Wales will want one ten years later, and before I shuffle
:45:26. > :45:31.off this mortal coil, I will be living under a completely different
:45:32. > :45:37.The only way of stopping this is a proper federal settlement.
:45:38. > :45:39.It sounds like you might agree we need a constitutional
:45:40. > :45:46.I do not agree with Carwyn on very much.
:45:47. > :45:55.The English question is vitally important and a part of that.
:45:56. > :45:58.The Labour Party, your party, is trying to decide what goes
:45:59. > :46:02.in its manifesto on the question of more powers for the Assembly.
:46:03. > :46:08.I thought it was a waste of time in the first place.
:46:09. > :46:12.They spent about ?1 million going around empty village halls trying to
:46:13. > :46:16.gather evidence for a report that we all knew they were going to write.
:46:17. > :46:19.I knew what was going to be in the report before it came out,
:46:20. > :46:22.which was going to be recommendations of vastly increased
:46:23. > :46:26.Should those recommendations be there?
:46:27. > :46:32.I do not like the idea of handing over further powers to the Welsh
:46:33. > :46:36.Assembly but if somebody is going to say, what are we trying to achieve
:46:37. > :46:41.And we have a constitutional settlement that locks us into
:46:42. > :46:46.the union instead of destabilising it, reinforces it, I suppose I
:46:47. > :46:49.might have to go along with that as the least worst option.
:46:50. > :46:53.Finally, the powers that be in all parties
:46:54. > :46:56.have begun to realise we cannot keep on handing powers out left,
:46:57. > :47:01.right and centre without anything going to England and I welcome that,
:47:02. > :47:08.William Hague is going to be presiding over a committee.
:47:09. > :47:14.David Cameron has talked about doing it in tandem and I think that is
:47:15. > :47:16.something that will reinforce the union rather than undermine it,
:47:17. > :47:25.Labour is meeting in Manchester for its annual conference, where many
:47:26. > :47:31.The party's shadow Welsh Secretary, Pontypridd MP Owen Smith, is there,
:47:32. > :47:37.and he's faced some questions from our parliamentary correspondent.
:47:38. > :47:41.Hello from Manchester and the start of the UK party conference season.
:47:42. > :47:44.The last conference before a general election is usually a
:47:45. > :47:47.chance for political parties to set out their stall, explain why their
:47:48. > :47:51.leader is really the Prime Minister in waiting, but of course events in
:47:52. > :47:54.Scotland have cast a shadow over the start
:47:55. > :48:02.I am sure Owen Smith will forgive me if I start by looking at Scotland.
:48:03. > :48:05.Quite clear that Labour will offer Scotland extensive powers.
:48:06. > :48:08.What we don't know is exactly what you would offer Wales
:48:09. > :48:17.We know Labour is already committed to tax varying powers for Wales
:48:18. > :48:18.and we have supported the Wales Bill.
:48:19. > :48:22.We have also said we will extend that.
:48:23. > :48:25.We will extend the same powers to Wales in respect of taxation so that
:48:26. > :48:29.is up to 15p in the pound in all of the tax bands, the ability to set
:48:30. > :48:33.a progressive top rate of tax, but the 50p rate back on people
:48:34. > :48:40.Wales should have the same model of powers as Scotland,
:48:41. > :48:48.Wales ought to be more like Scotland in terms of the powers it's got
:48:49. > :48:51.but the crucial thing we have said, Ed Miliband announced that a couple
:48:52. > :48:56.of days ago, we need a bottom-up convention, we need a process.
:48:57. > :48:59.Carwyn Jones has been ahead of the curve on this.
:49:00. > :49:04.For people to talk about what they want out of it.
:49:05. > :49:08.Tax varying powers, you sound almost enthusiastic.
:49:09. > :49:14.Would that trigger the referendum to bring those tax varying powers?
:49:15. > :49:16.We have said all along what we need to do is make
:49:17. > :49:20.sure that Wales would be better off as a result of this and this is
:49:21. > :49:24.not clear because Wales does not have oil revenues as Scotland has.
:49:25. > :49:29.Wales does have big needs and we do not have a big tax base, so if this
:49:30. > :49:33.were going to replace Barnett funding for Wales than that would
:49:34. > :49:39.We need to do a careful analysis and we're never going to commit to
:49:40. > :49:42.something that sees the Welsh people worse off.
:49:43. > :49:47.No, the second thing, we would have to have a referendum.
:49:48. > :49:50.If we decided Wales was going to be better off, and we would have to get
:49:51. > :49:56.into power and see whether Wales can stand on its own two feet in terms
:49:57. > :49:59.of tax, then we need a referendum because the people of Wales have
:50:00. > :50:04.never been asked if they would like Wales to have tax varying powers.
:50:05. > :50:06.You think you would trigger that referendum?
:50:07. > :50:11.Because the signs have been that you seem to discover all these hurdles
:50:12. > :50:15.that would come just before the need to trigger that referendum.
:50:16. > :50:19.No, I think we could trigger a referendum but we have always been
:50:20. > :50:22.really honest with people that we would make sure Wales was going to
:50:23. > :50:25.be better off and we don't know presently.
:50:26. > :50:29.We do know that Wales presently raises around ?16 billion to ?18
:50:30. > :50:34.billion in taxes and spend is double and we need to be pretty certain we
:50:35. > :50:37.are not asking people with the shallowest pockets in Britain to
:50:38. > :50:43.We would need to be clear Wales was going to be better off.
:50:44. > :50:46.The vote in Scotland was a vote for people sticking together,
:50:47. > :50:48.not breaking apart, and what we do not want its tax
:50:49. > :50:52.We want to augment the ability for the government to deliver
:50:53. > :51:00.Carwyn Jones says that until funding is sorted out you
:51:01. > :51:08.A bit difficult, isn't it, when you have signed up Ed Miliband
:51:09. > :51:11.has signed up, to continuing ar funding formula that
:51:12. > :51:15.Carwyn Jones says short-changes Wells by ?3 million a year?
:51:16. > :51:18.No, I don't think that is difficult because you need
:51:19. > :51:25.You need a way in which we address this shortfall for Wales.
:51:26. > :51:29.That ?150 million to ?300 million shortfall that comes about to do
:51:30. > :51:32.with population growth in Wales and public spending in England and
:51:33. > :51:39.We have not said exactly how we are going to do it, but if we win in
:51:40. > :51:43.May next year we will fill the Barnett gap.
:51:44. > :51:45.You talk about this constitutional convention.
:51:46. > :51:49.You do not need a grand convention to say that it is
:51:50. > :51:51.unfair that people like you can still vote on English issues.
:51:52. > :51:59.I think we can look at the way in which English MPs have an extra
:52:00. > :52:03.level of scrutiny and accountability in English only issues.
:52:04. > :52:08.The only reason this is on the table, I suspect the Tories have
:52:09. > :52:11.been planning this for the last two years, is that Cameron is running
:52:12. > :52:15.scared from backbenchers, he is worried that Farage is nipping
:52:16. > :52:19.at his heels, and this is a clear attempt to unfairly exploit the No
:52:20. > :52:25.vote in Scotland and try to cement power for the Tories at Westminster.
:52:26. > :52:28.It is a terrible thing to say to the Scottish people that
:52:29. > :52:31.your reward for voting to stay in the union, your reward
:52:32. > :52:36.for backing solidarity, is reduced voice for Scotland in the centre.
:52:37. > :52:39.They wanted to stay in the UK and remain as wrong part of the UK, not
:52:40. > :52:45.Is Cameron saying that a Welsh MP or a Scottish MP cannot be
:52:46. > :52:48.the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of this country?
:52:49. > :52:51.That is a recipe for breaking up Britain and sewing great
:52:52. > :52:58.Labour is saying we have to heal these wounds, because they are
:52:59. > :53:02.wounds, and we have to bring people together, and parliament is one of
:53:03. > :53:04.the institutions that binds Britain together so we don't want to
:53:05. > :53:07.disaggregate Parliament, we want to make it stronger
:53:08. > :53:10.in the centre, but we also want to push power to the people.
:53:11. > :53:16.The big announcement in Manchester today from Labour is that a Labour
:53:17. > :53:19.government elected next May would increase the minimum wage over
:53:20. > :53:25.the next Parliament from ?6.50 this October to ?8
:53:26. > :53:34.So Labour and the Tories don't agree, even though last week both
:53:35. > :53:37.parties and the Liberal Democrats were united in a vow to deliver more
:53:38. > :53:42.The Welsh Lib Dems' leader says Wales needs a cross-party
:53:43. > :53:45.consensus too if there's going to be more devolution here.
:53:46. > :53:53.I think it's clear from what we have seen over the last
:53:54. > :53:58.couple of days that the arguments in Westminster are going to perhaps
:53:59. > :54:02.naturally focus on what happens next for Scotland and what devolution
:54:03. > :54:09.I am very concerned that Wales could be left behind in this debate.
:54:10. > :54:15.I think the best chance that we've got of securing Wales' place in
:54:16. > :54:19.these discussions and moving power out of Whitehall and Westminster to
:54:20. > :54:24.Wales is to ensure where possible we build a consensus and that political
:54:25. > :54:29.leaders across the spectrum in Wales become one voice.
:54:30. > :54:33.That puts us in a much more powerful position if Westminster is hearing
:54:34. > :54:36.one consistent message rather than Welsh politicians squabbling amongst
:54:37. > :54:45.themselves about what should happen next.
:54:46. > :54:47.In the past you said there's too much consensus in Welsh politics.
:54:48. > :54:51.Perhaps we should be more like Scotland weather is not
:54:52. > :54:54.a consensus and there is a much more lively debate.
:54:55. > :55:06.Offering people in Wales real choices is important engendering
:55:07. > :55:10.that sense of enthusiasm about politics, but this is about trying
:55:11. > :55:13.to ensure Wales gets heard in the context of the discussions that are
:55:14. > :55:17.going on in the UK as a whole and we are already seeing that is
:55:18. > :55:22.Let's see if there's any consensus between my studio guests, Cathy
:55:23. > :55:25.Owens, a former Welsh Government special adviser, and Dafydd Trystan
:55:26. > :55:39.There is a mag agreement on a Scotland Bill, talk about timing on
:55:40. > :55:47.how to deal with English foods in Westminster. Where does Wales fit
:55:48. > :55:51.into this? We are getting a few extra powers in this Parliament. In
:55:52. > :55:58.the next Parliament we know we will get that reserve model around the
:55:59. > :56:02.structure of lawmaking, this Barnett plus, about keeping Barnett but
:56:03. > :56:06.making it better for Wales. We do not know if there will be another
:56:07. > :56:11.Wales Bill with powers for Wales and it is the same with the
:56:12. > :56:16.Conservatives who have not said... We are waiting to see general
:56:17. > :56:19.election manifestoes. I think so. It is unclear. Everyone has been
:56:20. > :56:25.energised by what has been going on in Scotland. In terms of the
:56:26. > :56:31.reaction from Westminster, that is the irony, devolution is not
:56:32. > :56:33.devolved, you have not seen any movement towards thinking again the
:56:34. > :56:39.extra powers that are going to be coming to Wales next Parliament. For
:56:40. > :56:44.people like yourself who want more devolution, do you think consensus
:56:45. > :56:48.is the way to go? There's not much consensus in Scotland between the
:56:49. > :56:51.SNP and the other three parties. In Wales there is a chance to build
:56:52. > :56:57.consensus around a significant measure of home rule for Wales with
:56:58. > :57:00.those powers to make a real difference to people was Matt lives
:57:01. > :57:06.in the valleys, those people who are suffering at the moment, from
:57:07. > :57:10.poverty and austerity, those are the powers they need to make that
:57:11. > :57:16.difference. There is a chance for consensus but I have been depressed
:57:17. > :57:21.listening to people saying we are going to beg for a few crumbs from
:57:22. > :57:26.Westminster's table. That is not good enough. People saying that
:57:27. > :57:34.Wales should be rewarded for sticking by the union. We have not
:57:35. > :57:37.been as bothersome to Whitehall and Westminster as Scotland and Northern
:57:38. > :57:42.Ireland. We do not have any bargaining chips in the same way
:57:43. > :57:48.that Scotland have. We are not rich enough to threaten. The nationalist
:57:49. > :57:54.movement is in no way comparable year as strong as it is in Scotland.
:57:55. > :57:56.We are going to have to get the Westminster people to understand
:57:57. > :58:03.this is a message that is being sent, it is not good enough, and we
:58:04. > :58:07.have to do more. We also showed in Scotland that it is about those
:58:08. > :58:11.issues that will make a real difference to people's lives. It is
:58:12. > :58:16.not necessarily about identity. It is about being able to have
:58:17. > :58:20.programmes here that impact on the welfare state, unemployment and all
:58:21. > :58:25.sorts of issues, rather than the police. We have seen the flourishing
:58:26. > :58:32.of democracy in Scotland apparently. The question is, is
:58:33. > :58:37.talking about the constitution and a few more powers, is that going to
:58:38. > :58:41.meet that demand? I do not think it will. You have seen over 10,000
:58:42. > :58:45.people join pro-independence political parties in the last three
:58:46. > :58:51.days in Scotland. There is a very clear message reinforced by Cathy
:58:52. > :58:59.that if you want Wales' voice to be heard loud and clear you need a
:59:00. > :59:04.strong national party and to be part of that ambitious movement. The way
:59:05. > :59:13.to get what the First Minister wants is to join the national party? There
:59:14. > :59:19.is a failure to capitalise on devolution. That is a factor here.
:59:20. > :59:25.There's more to it. It is about pressure for change. If you want
:59:26. > :59:28.more devolution. We do not have those bargaining chips. People in
:59:29. > :59:37.Wales quite like being part of the union. They do not just like being
:59:38. > :59:41.part of it, there might like there is redistribution of wealth in the
:59:42. > :59:45.centre. It is not perfect but have it gets any worse we are going to
:59:46. > :59:49.have to look again. Some of the issues being talked about are around
:59:50. > :59:53.that. If we get extra powers because we are building a nation around tax
:59:54. > :59:59.and it ends up again less money to spend on things we want to spend it
:00:00. > :00:05.on, we have to look again at what that union is delivering. Opinion
:00:06. > :00:11.polls tend to suggest that people in Wales like the union. Was it a
:00:12. > :00:16.gamble for your party to back Scottish independence so strongly?
:00:17. > :00:20.Was there a debate in the party? Not at all. We believe the best people
:00:21. > :00:26.to make decisions about Wales' future are the people of Wales.
:00:27. > :00:29.Likewise in Scotland, the best people to take decisions on
:00:30. > :00:34.defence, welfare, the economy, are the people of Scotland, and that is
:00:35. > :00:38.our principled position. The important thing here, there is a
:00:39. > :00:43.major challenge ahead of all parties to develop a strong and successful
:00:44. > :00:49.Welsh economy, something that has not happened in 16 years of
:00:50. > :00:52.devolution. It is a valid view but it is not sure why the majority. We
:00:53. > :00:59.are going to have it leave it there. the Conservative mayor's policy. No
:01:00. > :01:07.more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.
:01:08. > :01:09.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined
:01:10. > :01:12.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.
:01:13. > :01:18.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.
:01:19. > :01:19.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally
:01:20. > :01:23.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.
:01:24. > :01:26.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve
:01:27. > :01:37.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish
:01:38. > :01:40.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,
:01:41. > :01:46.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament
:01:47. > :01:49.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I
:01:50. > :01:53.certainly don't agree with that. I campaign for powers to be given to
:01:54. > :01:57.the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?
:01:58. > :02:01.Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to
:02:02. > :02:09.Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the
:02:13. > :02:18.alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and
:02:19. > :02:23.everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was
:02:24. > :02:30.my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year
:02:31. > :02:34.plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to
:02:35. > :02:37.turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if
:02:38. > :02:43.that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can
:02:44. > :02:46.get reform in a more federal structure, and even English
:02:47. > :02:50.parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the
:02:51. > :02:55.Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite
:02:56. > :02:58.radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in
:02:59. > :03:05.the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's
:03:06. > :03:08.assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they
:03:09. > :03:13.remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but
:03:14. > :03:19.don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their
:03:20. > :03:21.favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come
:03:22. > :03:28.up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page
:03:29. > :03:31.of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the
:03:32. > :03:35.time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you
:03:36. > :03:38.want real protection in England, vote Conservative, and if you want
:03:39. > :03:43.Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is
:03:44. > :03:47.scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the
:03:48. > :03:51.constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same
:03:52. > :03:54.with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a
:03:55. > :03:59.fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years
:04:00. > :04:03.ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't
:04:04. > :04:08.mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are
:04:09. > :04:14.promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout
:04:15. > :04:18.of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The
:04:19. > :04:21.turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get
:04:22. > :04:25.people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation
:04:26. > :04:29.in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what
:04:30. > :04:34.you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they
:04:35. > :04:36.were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is
:04:37. > :04:40.about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in
:04:41. > :04:43.the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and
:04:44. > :04:47.you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,
:04:48. > :04:51.but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of
:04:52. > :04:54.power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.
:04:55. > :05:00.They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with
:05:01. > :05:03.what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up
:05:04. > :05:08.with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of
:05:09. > :05:11.city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a
:05:12. > :05:15.democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of
:05:16. > :05:19.Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of
:05:20. > :05:24.democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the
:05:25. > :05:29.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from
:05:30. > :05:33.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,
:05:34. > :05:37.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city
:05:38. > :05:41.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal
:05:42. > :05:44.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with
:05:45. > :05:48.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I
:05:49. > :05:52.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options
:05:53. > :05:56.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do
:05:57. > :06:00.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will
:06:01. > :06:04.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.
:06:05. > :06:08.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,
:06:09. > :06:12.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a
:06:13. > :06:17.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English
:06:18. > :06:22.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of
:06:23. > :06:25.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put
:06:26. > :06:30.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking
:06:31. > :06:33.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do
:06:34. > :06:36.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:37. > :06:40.Put the framework in the White might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:41. > :06:44.Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been
:06:45. > :06:48.to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start
:06:49. > :06:55.looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the
:06:56. > :07:00.debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British
:07:01. > :07:02.socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the
:07:03. > :07:06.referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the
:07:07. > :07:12.Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional
:07:13. > :07:14.working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would
:07:15. > :07:24.say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the
:07:25. > :07:28.message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either
:07:29. > :07:33.the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas
:07:34. > :07:37.that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in
:07:38. > :07:40.Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and
:07:41. > :07:44.you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because
:07:45. > :07:48.that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on
:07:49. > :07:52.your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to
:07:53. > :08:00.the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an
:08:01. > :08:05.English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out
:08:06. > :08:12.I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was
:08:13. > :08:16.that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were
:08:17. > :08:19.against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to
:08:20. > :08:24.come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their
:08:25. > :08:28.share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was
:08:29. > :08:33.about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got
:08:34. > :08:40.any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?
:08:41. > :08:48.No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted
:08:49. > :08:55.yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech
:08:56. > :08:59.by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are
:09:00. > :09:06.many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just
:09:07. > :09:09.now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage. You
:09:10. > :09:14.are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That
:09:15. > :09:17.is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and
:09:18. > :09:20.we have to say it will be saved. If you can save all of these bankers
:09:21. > :09:24.with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,
:09:25. > :09:30.say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I
:09:31. > :09:33.have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a
:09:34. > :09:38.deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy
:09:39. > :09:43.it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for
:09:44. > :09:46.up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy
:09:47. > :09:50.the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not
:09:51. > :09:54.listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in
:09:55. > :09:59.three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling
:10:00. > :10:03.them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want
:10:04. > :10:08.commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing,
:10:09. > :10:13.health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.
:10:14. > :10:17.That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered
:10:18. > :10:20.about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know
:10:21. > :10:25.it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.
:10:26. > :10:30.I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe
:10:31. > :10:34.it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the
:10:35. > :10:40.polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We
:10:41. > :10:45.haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to
:10:46. > :10:50.repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is
:10:51. > :10:53.quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying
:10:54. > :11:00.to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given
:11:01. > :11:02.2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the
:11:03. > :11:10.next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the
:11:11. > :11:14.proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when
:11:15. > :11:19.we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and
:11:20. > :11:25.that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys
:11:26. > :11:30.run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under
:11:31. > :11:35.Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is
:11:36. > :11:39.still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,
:11:40. > :11:43.but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible
:11:44. > :11:47.discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about
:11:48. > :11:51.finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We
:11:52. > :11:54.need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell
:11:55. > :11:58.me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting
:11:59. > :12:01.screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown
:12:02. > :12:08.coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did
:12:09. > :12:13.a poll of the Labour candidates, you were watching on the big screen,
:12:14. > :12:19.when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette
:12:20. > :12:27.Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not
:12:28. > :12:37.true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?
:12:38. > :12:46.You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping
:12:47. > :12:53.comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got
:12:54. > :12:58.that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former
:12:59. > :13:00.Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are
:13:01. > :13:02.useless. my guests. I'll be back here at
:13:03. > :13:06.Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring
:13:07. > :13:11.you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday
:13:12. > :13:16.you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:17. > :13:23.it's the Sunday Politics.