:00:37. > :00:40.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.We finally know what David Cameron wants
:00:43. > :00:45.as he attempts to reform our relationship with the EU.
:00:46. > :00:49.Does it deliver on his promises - and will it be enough to convince
:00:50. > :00:55.and most of us can't name our MEP.
:00:56. > :00:58.Is there a democratic crisis in the EU?
:00:59. > :01:02.Former Respect MP George Galloway and Labour's Stephen Kinnock go
:01:03. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn has plenty of new grassroots support.
:01:10. > :01:12.But is Labour facing a cash crisis thanks to a loss of money from big
:01:13. > :01:14.donors, taxpayers and Government plans to restrict union funding?
:01:15. > :01:17.It is an affront on British democracy.
:01:18. > :01:28.Later in the programme: agreement which changed the funding
:01:29. > :01:30.Welsh Lib Dems have had their annual conference in cardiff.
:01:31. > :01:32.After last year's thumping at the general election,
:01:33. > :01:44.about his priorities these last two years?
:01:45. > :01:48.And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more
:01:49. > :01:51.opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups.
:01:52. > :01:54.Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:55. > :01:58.We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end
:01:59. > :02:04.Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England
:02:05. > :02:07.is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax.
:02:08. > :02:09.Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle
:02:10. > :02:13.is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers
:02:14. > :02:17.Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said
:02:18. > :02:20.to "get ninja" to force the Government to act.
:02:21. > :02:22.Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding
:02:23. > :02:24.on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:25. > :02:35.It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy.
:02:36. > :02:41.The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure
:02:42. > :02:43.that children consume less sugar, because we have got
:02:44. > :02:48.We are the most obese nation in the EU
:02:49. > :02:54.Well, we are going to be announcing in due course -
:02:55. > :02:58.David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax,
:02:59. > :03:00.it needs to be something that is equally robust.
:03:01. > :03:02.But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table.
:03:03. > :03:08.Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want
:03:09. > :03:15.to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter,
:03:16. > :03:20.by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be
:03:21. > :03:24.clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a
:03:25. > :03:28.sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the
:03:29. > :03:34.Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a
:03:35. > :03:45.sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been
:03:46. > :03:50.very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland
:03:51. > :03:57.also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait
:03:58. > :04:04.and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow?
:04:05. > :04:10.Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has
:04:11. > :04:19.sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a
:04:20. > :04:25.revenue raiser because that isn't -- a justifiable cause, we have a
:04:26. > :04:31.population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the
:04:32. > :04:37.reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of
:04:38. > :04:40.monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on
:04:41. > :04:47.strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks
:04:48. > :04:51.so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was
:04:52. > :04:58.saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The
:04:59. > :05:03.government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is
:05:04. > :05:07.interesting with that interview, Jeremy Hunt has said until now that
:05:08. > :05:11.the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits
:05:12. > :05:14.there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term
:05:15. > :05:20.and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect
:05:21. > :05:24.emergency services this time. It was a big week for
:05:25. > :05:26.David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental
:05:27. > :05:30.change in that relationship as a condition for backing
:05:31. > :05:33.the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes -
:05:34. > :05:37.but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs
:05:38. > :05:42.to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's
:05:43. > :05:44.time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's
:05:45. > :05:50.achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member,
:05:51. > :05:54.this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking
:05:55. > :05:59.earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart,
:06:00. > :06:02.I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto,
:06:03. > :06:04.and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance,
:06:05. > :06:06.pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages,
:06:07. > :06:09.then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of
:06:10. > :06:11.the reasons why we've seen such high levels
:06:12. > :06:15.of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up
:06:16. > :06:18.to everything that was promised in the Conservative
:06:19. > :06:20.election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet
:06:21. > :06:31.minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the
:06:32. > :06:34.Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto
:06:35. > :06:40.promise. Let us look at what this promise. The manifesto said we will
:06:41. > :06:46.insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit
:06:47. > :06:51.must live here and contribute to the economy for a minimum of four years.
:06:52. > :07:00.The emergency rig on tax credits does not achieve that? -- brake. You
:07:01. > :07:05.must bear in mind the things we can do through domestic law, a
:07:06. > :07:09.job-seeker from Europe who cannot find a job within six months, you
:07:10. > :07:20.are obliged to leave and that has been achieved through domestic law.
:07:21. > :07:26.The manifesto promised no in work benefits until you have been here
:07:27. > :07:30.for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four
:07:31. > :07:38.years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four
:07:39. > :07:42.years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting
:07:43. > :07:47.on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest
:07:48. > :07:51.political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have
:07:52. > :07:56.this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be
:07:57. > :08:04.approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what
:08:05. > :08:11.constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds
:08:12. > :08:17.every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750
:08:18. > :08:27.billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the
:08:28. > :08:31.bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of
:08:32. > :08:39.the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is
:08:40. > :08:44.the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency
:08:45. > :08:51.brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the
:08:52. > :08:59.views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this
:09:00. > :09:02.emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for
:09:03. > :09:08.other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but
:09:09. > :09:15.what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that
:09:16. > :09:21.emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should
:09:22. > :09:25.receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they
:09:26. > :09:31.have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is. The
:09:32. > :09:37.sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is
:09:38. > :09:42.harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly
:09:43. > :09:51.the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 28
:09:52. > :09:56.different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as
:09:57. > :10:02.the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the
:10:03. > :10:09.same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland
:10:10. > :10:15.it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child
:10:16. > :10:21.benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child
:10:22. > :10:26.benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current
:10:27. > :10:31.situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that
:10:32. > :10:36.and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said
:10:37. > :10:42.that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming
:10:43. > :10:48.welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration
:10:49. > :10:53.from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us
:10:54. > :11:00.an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union
:11:01. > :11:04.migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go
:11:05. > :11:11.wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know
:11:12. > :11:16.that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and
:11:17. > :11:23.given that the average is ?6,000 in addition and can be as much as
:11:24. > :11:26.?10,000, it will have an effect. You said 40% but that is not the figure,
:11:27. > :11:31.we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there
:11:32. > :11:36.had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have
:11:37. > :11:44.affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the
:11:45. > :11:50.new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit,
:11:51. > :12:00.you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere
:12:01. > :12:06.near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have
:12:07. > :12:12.any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the
:12:13. > :12:16.settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the
:12:17. > :12:22.European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for
:12:23. > :12:27.nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to
:12:28. > :12:32.ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming
:12:33. > :12:38.here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only
:12:39. > :12:42.to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be
:12:43. > :12:48.a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure
:12:49. > :12:55.could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that
:12:56. > :13:00.doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation... To
:13:01. > :13:08.ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also
:13:09. > :13:13.said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block
:13:14. > :13:18.unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange
:13:19. > :13:25.card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron,
:13:26. > :13:30.is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was
:13:31. > :13:37.yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing!
:13:38. > :13:47.How many different cards? Three, yellow and orange and this red card.
:13:48. > :13:52.In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing
:13:53. > :13:58.Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the
:13:59. > :14:03.commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock
:14:04. > :14:08.out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national
:14:09. > :14:15.parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session
:14:16. > :14:21.and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the
:14:22. > :14:25.importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we
:14:26. > :14:30.would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others, and
:14:31. > :14:36.in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against
:14:37. > :14:42.the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of
:14:43. > :14:47.course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of
:14:48. > :14:53.ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't
:14:54. > :14:55.forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever
:14:56. > :15:02.closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It
:15:03. > :15:07.was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk,
:15:08. > :15:13.the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not
:15:14. > :15:14.mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status
:15:15. > :15:22.quo. It is very interesting for him to
:15:23. > :15:27.say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this
:15:28. > :15:31.drift towards ever closer union, political union, that has been
:15:32. > :15:34.important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give
:15:35. > :15:44.and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the
:15:45. > :15:48.prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would
:15:49. > :15:50.his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft
:15:51. > :15:57.settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm
:15:58. > :16:00.very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime
:16:01. > :16:04.Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be
:16:05. > :16:09.successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would
:16:10. > :16:13.depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any
:16:14. > :16:18.enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we
:16:19. > :16:22.would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the
:16:23. > :16:25.European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the
:16:26. > :16:29.European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work
:16:30. > :16:34.benefits, child benefit element, perhaps even the red card. What
:16:35. > :16:38.guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do
:16:39. > :16:43.this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can
:16:44. > :16:48.you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament
:16:49. > :16:50.will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European
:16:51. > :16:57.Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope...
:16:58. > :17:03.Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that. I
:17:04. > :17:09.think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more
:17:10. > :17:15.codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for
:17:16. > :17:18.us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass
:17:19. > :17:22.this, it is not legally binding. The Prime Minister has told us that. It
:17:23. > :17:25.can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with
:17:26. > :17:30.legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the
:17:31. > :17:33.British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing
:17:34. > :17:38.what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at
:17:39. > :17:45.the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case. --
:17:46. > :17:49.won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would
:17:50. > :17:54.undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or
:17:55. > :17:57.later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the
:17:58. > :18:01.consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a
:18:02. > :18:05.pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want
:18:06. > :18:09.us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents'
:18:10. > :18:13.children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same
:18:14. > :18:15.but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us
:18:16. > :18:18.this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating
:18:19. > :18:21.some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration
:18:22. > :18:24.and the economy. Today we're going to look
:18:25. > :18:26.at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask,
:18:27. > :18:28.is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people
:18:29. > :18:32.across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go
:18:33. > :18:36.to the polls every five years to elect 751 members
:18:37. > :18:38.of the European Parliament. The UK currently has
:18:39. > :18:42.73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget
:18:43. > :18:46.and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission,
:18:47. > :18:49.led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible
:18:50. > :18:53.for day-to-day management, plus proposing and
:18:54. > :18:57.implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron
:18:58. > :18:59.will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council
:19:00. > :19:02.to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his
:19:03. > :19:06.efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 28
:19:07. > :19:13.heads of state or government of EU members and decides
:19:14. > :19:16.the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with
:19:17. > :19:22.the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each
:19:23. > :19:25.country meet to discuss, There's always been
:19:26. > :19:29.concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last
:19:30. > :19:34.elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can
:19:35. > :19:41.even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect
:19:42. > :19:51.MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign
:19:52. > :19:54.for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP
:19:55. > :20:02.Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you
:20:03. > :20:09.first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name
:20:10. > :20:12.their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the
:20:13. > :20:16.Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the
:20:17. > :20:22.democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted
:20:23. > :20:24.in democratic elections but let's not forget there is another
:20:25. > :20:27.democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council
:20:28. > :20:31.of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our
:20:32. > :20:35.Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to
:20:36. > :20:39.Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit
:20:40. > :20:42.sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an
:20:43. > :20:46.element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I
:20:47. > :20:51.think the really important point is that this referendum is not about
:20:52. > :20:55.David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of
:20:56. > :21:00.the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms
:21:01. > :21:04.of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of
:21:05. > :21:10.the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details
:21:11. > :21:14.of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important.
:21:15. > :21:18.George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of
:21:19. > :21:22.Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a
:21:23. > :21:33.reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is
:21:34. > :21:36.in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European
:21:37. > :21:39.Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the
:21:40. > :21:42.European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning
:21:43. > :21:48.out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this
:21:49. > :21:53.council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very
:21:54. > :21:58.lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your
:21:59. > :22:06.question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever
:22:07. > :22:08.elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other
:22:09. > :22:15.countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I
:22:16. > :22:18.think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these
:22:19. > :22:22.things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in
:22:23. > :22:26.the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation
:22:27. > :22:30.which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and
:22:31. > :22:32.by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European
:22:33. > :22:40.Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the
:22:41. > :22:43.possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is,
:22:44. > :22:46.when we come together as nation states because we believe our
:22:47. > :22:50.sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you
:22:51. > :22:54.have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything
:22:55. > :22:57.that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and
:22:58. > :23:02.pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There
:23:03. > :23:04.has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the
:23:05. > :23:09.sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract
:23:10. > :23:13.Mr Boris Johnson to come onside. But surely you have to accept that in
:23:14. > :23:17.many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign
:23:18. > :23:21.and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave. I
:23:22. > :23:26.think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big
:23:27. > :23:31.multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of
:23:32. > :23:35.sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key
:23:36. > :23:39.point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating
:23:40. > :23:43.transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very
:23:44. > :23:49.well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The
:23:50. > :23:55.bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I
:23:56. > :24:01.shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late
:24:02. > :24:07.Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated
:24:08. > :24:13.to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and
:24:14. > :24:17.thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things
:24:18. > :24:23.in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you
:24:24. > :24:29.are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of
:24:30. > :24:33.pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we
:24:34. > :24:38.always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community,
:24:39. > :24:43.now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles,
:24:44. > :24:49.which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you
:24:50. > :24:52.comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned
:24:53. > :24:58.by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries
:24:59. > :25:02.like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and
:25:03. > :25:06.the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big
:25:07. > :25:10.multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is,
:25:11. > :25:14.how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our
:25:15. > :25:18.principles are about solidarity, a key value on which European Union is
:25:19. > :25:23.founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that
:25:24. > :25:27.the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister
:25:28. > :25:33.in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not
:25:34. > :25:41.part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still
:25:42. > :25:44.exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the
:25:45. > :25:49.European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want
:25:50. > :25:54.to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people
:25:55. > :25:59.of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which
:26:00. > :26:04.the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an
:26:05. > :26:10.election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the
:26:11. > :26:12.European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't
:26:13. > :26:16.summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government.
:26:17. > :26:20.This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece,
:26:21. > :26:26.though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same
:26:27. > :26:30.fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which
:26:31. > :26:35.I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If
:26:36. > :26:39.we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out
:26:40. > :26:43.with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely
:26:44. > :26:48.involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see
:26:49. > :26:52.how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and
:26:53. > :26:55.sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we
:26:56. > :26:58.suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value
:26:59. > :27:03.of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a
:27:04. > :27:06.classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the
:27:07. > :27:10.game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been
:27:11. > :27:13.asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy
:27:14. > :27:15.compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The
:27:16. > :27:21.government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese
:27:22. > :27:24.steel into the British market has only been happening over the last
:27:25. > :27:28.four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them
:27:29. > :27:31.for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was
:27:32. > :27:35.knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying
:27:36. > :27:40.up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of
:27:41. > :27:43.our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing
:27:44. > :27:48.them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The
:27:49. > :27:49.European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting
:27:50. > :27:54.Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu
:27:55. > :27:59.Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done
:28:00. > :28:03.time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her.
:28:04. > :28:08.That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the
:28:09. > :28:11.details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent
:28:12. > :28:14.world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport
:28:15. > :28:18.foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage
:28:19. > :28:23.to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based
:28:24. > :28:28.organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member
:28:29. > :28:31.states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government
:28:32. > :28:35.that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's
:28:36. > :28:40.one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU
:28:41. > :28:44.now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the
:28:45. > :28:51.time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each
:28:52. > :28:54.other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against
:28:55. > :28:57.breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum.
:28:58. > :29:02.That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the
:29:03. > :29:10.Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view
:29:11. > :29:14.from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for
:29:15. > :29:18.Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport,
:29:19. > :29:21.what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be.
:29:22. > :29:23.We will leave it there. Thank you both.
:29:24. > :29:26.Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding,
:29:27. > :29:29.thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money
:29:30. > :29:31.from trade union members, along with moves to cut state
:29:32. > :29:35.In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary
:29:36. > :29:37.Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be.
:29:38. > :29:45.An audience of around 800 people turning out on a Thursday night
:29:46. > :29:48.in North London to watch well-known comedians,
:29:49. > :29:50.artistic and political types talk about, well,
:29:51. > :29:54.why Jeremy Corbyn ought to be Prime Minister.
:29:55. > :30:03.He wasn't here and this wasn't a fundraiser but similar nights
:30:04. > :30:06.to this have raised cash for the party.
:30:07. > :30:08.Welcome, one and all, you bunch of loony lefties.
:30:09. > :30:14.I started in my constituency in Brentford.
:30:15. > :30:18.And then other constituencies asked me to do the same thing
:30:19. > :30:55.and we've done 165 and raised ?100,000.
:30:56. > :30:57.And it's just as well, because the Labour Party
:30:58. > :31:00.says it could be about to lose about ?8 million of funding
:31:01. > :31:02.if Government plans to change the way it collects
:31:03. > :31:04.money from trade union members go through.
:31:05. > :31:05.And they say it's no laughing matter.
:31:06. > :31:07.It is an affront on British democracy.
:31:08. > :31:09.If you look at any previous agreement which changed
:31:10. > :31:12.the funding of a political party, it was done on a consensual,
:31:13. > :31:15.cross-party basis, an agreement, because of the effect it had.
:31:16. > :31:17.So is this an existential threat to the Labour Party?
:31:18. > :31:20.It would be very difficult for the party.
:31:21. > :31:25.funding would mean that we would not be able to operate in the current
:31:26. > :31:28.way that we do, holding the Government to account
:31:29. > :31:32.The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around
:31:33. > :31:33.half its costs, and, of course, campaigning.
:31:34. > :31:37.Things like party election broadcasts, battle buses,
:31:38. > :31:41.At the moment, trade union members have to actively opt
:31:42. > :31:43.out of paying towards the Labour Party.
:31:44. > :31:46.In the future, they would have to opt in, in writing,
:31:47. > :31:48.within three months - something Labour fear
:31:49. > :31:50.people just won't get round to doing.
:31:51. > :31:56.It also coincides with a 19% cut to so-called short money,
:31:57. > :32:02.cash given to all opposition parties to
:32:03. > :32:04.help with the costs of Parliamentary business -
:32:05. > :32:06.a sort of concession for not having the civil service
:32:07. > :32:10.But the man who used to be in charge of said civil
:32:11. > :32:12.service says the Government's plans are at best partisan.
:32:13. > :32:18.It goes to this wider question of what I would see
:32:19. > :32:20.as a worryingly authoritarian streak in government that finds it
:32:21. > :32:22.difficult to live with and accept challenge.
:32:23. > :32:25.I think that's something that people of all parties...
:32:26. > :32:27.I'm actually a crossbencher, not in any
:32:28. > :32:29.party, and I think, whichever party are in,
:32:30. > :32:33.There's nothing authoritarian about having something
:32:34. > :32:39.clearly flagged in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government
:32:40. > :32:41.and delivered on, and there's nothing authoritarian about having
:32:42. > :32:48.That's to say, if you're a Labour Party supporter and you're
:32:49. > :32:51.a member of a trade union, you actively choose to do it,
:32:52. > :32:52.rather than having it forced upon you
:32:53. > :32:55.Frankly, I think the Labour Party needs to get
:32:56. > :32:59.out and convince union members it's a good use of their money to give
:33:00. > :33:01.that money to the Labour Party, just as the Conservatives
:33:02. > :33:03.and Liberal Democrats have to convince people to give
:33:04. > :33:14.We don't rely on people accidentally giving
:33:15. > :33:24.Back in Kentish Town, the organisers here say a night
:33:25. > :33:28.like this is as much about raising awareness and morale as it is cash.
:33:29. > :33:30.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on grassroots support.
:33:31. > :33:31.As the party's funding streams start to dry
:33:32. > :33:35.up, it it could well need to rely on people like this -
:33:36. > :33:37.people willing to come to a night about Jeremy Corbyn
:33:38. > :33:54.In fact, Mr Corbyn may prefer the thought of appealing
:33:55. > :33:57.to the wallets of people like this, rather than the traditional big
:33:58. > :33:59.donors, and number of whom have already publicly
:34:00. > :34:01.But fundraising made up just 3% of the
:34:02. > :34:06.The spotlight will now fall on how Labour pays its way in the future.
:34:07. > :34:09.And we now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland,
:34:10. > :34:11.who leave us for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:34:12. > :34:14.Now, this week in the House of Lords, Labour's peers
:34:15. > :34:16.will try to fight off the Government's plans to change
:34:17. > :34:18.the way union members give money to the party.
:34:19. > :34:21.The shadow leader in the Lords, Angela Smith, joins me now -
:34:22. > :34:24.and I should add we asked to speak to a Government minister
:34:25. > :34:29.For a change! Or not! If you join a trade union, why should part of the
:34:30. > :34:31.membership fee be given to the Labour Party without your explicit
:34:32. > :34:35.approval? It is a choice you can make and one of the things said
:34:36. > :34:40.during the House of Lords debate is a Conservative peer said, when was
:34:41. > :34:45.the evidence that people are forced to opt in? One of the key things is
:34:46. > :34:51.the government says you must opt in rather than quite but when they gave
:34:52. > :34:55.businesses two years to bring in the plastic bag levy, they gave trade
:34:56. > :34:59.unions three months to change them into our system. In three years
:35:00. > :35:10.would you change your mind? Well, no. It's not really a matter of
:35:11. > :35:14.time, then? Within three months in writing, the government is making
:35:15. > :35:18.this as difficult as possible. When this was looked at, it was amenable
:35:19. > :35:24.of a number of -- context of a number of aspects and they are not
:35:25. > :35:28.giving any other changes on those affecting themselves, only the
:35:29. > :35:34.Labour Party. Many members do not vote Labour, why should they have to
:35:35. > :35:39.opt out? Surely those who want to join Labour should have to opt in?
:35:40. > :35:45.There does not seem to be any problem with people being asked to
:35:46. > :35:50.opt out. Look at this in the context of funding for all parties, the
:35:51. > :35:54.government have picked one recommendation from the committee of
:35:55. > :35:56.standards in public life, the one that reflects the Labour Party adds
:35:57. > :36:02.nothing to look at Conservative Party funding, blatantly partisan
:36:03. > :36:10.and unfair. But is it wrong within its own right? Labour depends on
:36:11. > :36:17.inertia, people pay the levy but they don't want to and they do not
:36:18. > :36:21.know about opting out? Isn't it time we stopped tracking nonlabour
:36:22. > :36:28.voters? Nobody is tracking anybody, that is grossly misrepresenting. In
:36:29. > :36:37.the context of all of these public life issues, you can do it but they
:36:38. > :36:42.say themselves, tracking, the Conservatives talk about the burden
:36:43. > :36:45.on trade unions, this is unfair. It will ensure that in that short space
:36:46. > :36:50.of time they will not be able to reach everybody. You said that even
:36:51. > :36:57.in two years you would still be against it. That is not exactly what
:36:58. > :37:00.I said, over a longer period of time, in the context of all the
:37:01. > :37:05.other measures that have been addressed on party funding, what is
:37:06. > :37:09.unfair is this is one measure affecting one party. You understand
:37:10. > :37:20.the government is picking on you. Not just me! In the United States,
:37:21. > :37:26.Bernie Sanders, on the left of the party, he has no union backing or
:37:27. > :37:30.big donors or business backing. He managed to get, not even running
:37:31. > :37:38.nationwide, over 3 million individual donations. He raised $20
:37:39. > :37:41.million in January. Jeremy Corbyn is striking a chord with people who
:37:42. > :37:49.have never been involved before. Why not raise more money from ordinary
:37:50. > :37:52.sympathisers. Do not think for one moment that trade unionists who
:37:53. > :37:58.could opt in are not ordinary Labour Party, many of them are and over
:37:59. > :38:02.longer period you would not see the drop off the Conservative Party is
:38:03. > :38:08.hoping for. $20 million in one month. That is amazing and I would
:38:09. > :38:13.like to change how we can fund political parties and that is what
:38:14. > :38:18.the committee looked at, reducing the cap on donations, reducing the
:38:19. > :38:25.spending limits and it did look at -- look at trade unionists funding.
:38:26. > :38:32.How much do you raise from individual members? About two thirds
:38:33. > :38:41.of funding. Excluding a good donors? I could not give you that figure.
:38:42. > :38:47.Isn't that the way the Labour should reduce its dependence on the unions,
:38:48. > :38:51.?8 million from the unions at the moment, and many people in the party
:38:52. > :38:56.used to think that kind of funding was a disadvantage for the party
:38:57. > :39:02.because you are more than unions. Would that not be one way of getting
:39:03. > :39:07.small, individual donations to bring in a lot of money and show that you
:39:08. > :39:11.are not in the pocket of anybody? Over the course of Parliament it is
:39:12. > :39:14.about ?8 million every year that is just one third of the money that we
:39:15. > :39:21.get from all areas, donations from members also. What I am looking at
:39:22. > :39:26.is the Conservative Party that so dislikes the unions, it wants to cut
:39:27. > :39:31.their funding to not just us but in the work they do. If they want to do
:39:32. > :39:35.that, look at parting funding overall but it is ill-conceived to
:39:36. > :39:40.just look at modelling the opposition. I take your point that
:39:41. > :39:49.they are not stopping big donors from giving themselves money but
:39:50. > :39:52.have you not become more dependent on the unions? At one stage we
:39:53. > :39:57.thought you were becoming less so but more than ever, and the leader
:39:58. > :40:02.seems to make that dependency even greater? According to a recent
:40:03. > :40:09.report, Jeremy Corbyn treats big Labour donors with disdain and has
:40:10. > :40:14.abandoned fundraising. We look at all members and supporters for
:40:15. > :40:18.donations but I will not apologise for our relationship with trade
:40:19. > :40:24.unions, we grew out of them and we work together on issues. What I am
:40:25. > :40:28.asking is, are you not becoming overly dependent on them? And
:40:29. > :40:32.becoming vulnerable to this time of action from a Conservative
:40:33. > :40:39.government? Our donations continue to increase, I cannot give you
:40:40. > :40:45.figures, I do not do those sums. I cannot remember them. I haven't got
:40:46. > :40:52.a photographic memory! I know the problem! Are you going to block this
:40:53. > :40:58.in the House of Lords? You may not like this but it was in the Tory
:40:59. > :41:02.manifesto? This came from cross-party, let us investigate this
:41:03. > :41:06.properly, let us take not just my word or the word of the Labour
:41:07. > :41:11.Party, let's have a cross-party look at what the Tory party is trying to
:41:12. > :41:16.do and I would put store by that. Let's look at the report on the 29th
:41:17. > :41:19.of the brewery. Thank you very much. -- February.
:41:20. > :41:22.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking to an MP
:41:23. > :41:30.from the latest Eurosceptic group hoping to be chosen as the official
:41:31. > :41:33.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:41:34. > :41:38.On today's programme: They took one hell of a beating in last year's
:41:39. > :41:40.general election, so how are things looking for the Lib Dems
:41:41. > :41:44.And should Cardiff have its own Boris Johnson?
:41:45. > :41:46.We look at the arguments for and against directly
:41:47. > :42:00.The Liberal Democrats or Liberals have been around in one form
:42:01. > :42:04.for 150 years, but this year's Assembly election sees them
:42:05. > :42:05.facing their toughest task in decades.
:42:06. > :42:08.They'll be looking to retain their five seats in Cardiff Bay,
:42:09. > :42:10.but are under pressure, particularly on the list,
:42:11. > :42:13.This weekend they gathered for their conference
:42:14. > :42:15.and were addressed by their UK leader, Tim Farron.
:42:16. > :42:18.Here's a flavour of what he had to say.
:42:19. > :42:20.Jeremy Corbyn needs to understand that in this part
:42:21. > :42:22.of the United Kingdom his party are still in Government
:42:23. > :42:25.and its legacy to the people of Wales is one of failure.
:42:26. > :42:30.Under Labour, Welsh patients have longer waiting times for ambulances,
:42:31. > :42:35.That is truly shocking when you think Wales is governed
:42:36. > :42:39.by a party that's spent over 60 years pretendling that the NHS
:42:40. > :42:51.Nye Bevan stood on the shoulders of giants.
:42:52. > :43:05.They know that if they get into trouble in the May elections
:43:06. > :43:08.they can rely on the nationalists to prop them up.
:43:09. > :43:11.I was on Question Time with Leanne Wood a few months ago,
:43:12. > :43:15.But there is absolutely no point whatsoever in voting for her.
:43:16. > :43:18.She has made it totally clear if no party has a majority,
:43:19. > :43:23.So if you vote Labour you get Labour.
:43:24. > :43:29.If you want to make a difference, you vote for the Welsh Liberal
:43:30. > :43:34.Well, in her speech, the party's Welsh leader,
:43:35. > :43:37.Kirsty Williams, launched a scathing attack on the Labour Party's record
:43:38. > :43:41.Afterwards our political editor, Nick Servini, asked her why,
:43:42. > :43:44.if the party is so awful, her party does deals
:43:45. > :43:50.What I was expressing in my speech I think is a strongly held view
:43:51. > :43:54.by many many people I speak to the length and breadth of Wales
:43:55. > :43:58.who had high hopes and believed the promises that having
:43:59. > :44:01.a National Assembly for Wales and a Welsh Government would make
:44:02. > :44:09.I think their experience is that that hasn't happened.
:44:10. > :44:12.The basic things that they expect the Government to deliver for them -
:44:13. > :44:16.a great school for their children, the ability to ring up a doctor
:44:17. > :44:21.in the morning and get an appointment, to go into hospital
:44:22. > :44:24.knowing that that ward will have the right number of staff,
:44:25. > :44:26.to know that we've got an economy that allows them to get
:44:27. > :44:33.I don't think it is the fault of devolution.
:44:34. > :44:36.I think it is the fault of the Government that we have.
:44:37. > :44:41.You talked about the First Minister winging it.
:44:42. > :44:45.Mark Drakeford, the Health Minister, coming up with vanity projects.
:44:46. > :44:49.But there's a mismatch here, it seems to me, with the rhetoric
:44:50. > :44:53.and the political reality of life in Cardiff Bay.
:44:54. > :44:57.This is a Labour Government that doesn't have an overall majority,
:44:58. > :45:00.and then you've given a number of speeches like this.
:45:01. > :45:02.Admittedly you have ramped up the rhetoric
:45:03. > :45:08.And then we find they get their budgets through and more often
:45:09. > :45:11.than not, behind closed doors you've done a deal with them.
:45:12. > :45:15.What the Liberal Democrats have done is said what we would do
:45:16. > :45:18.when we were returned to the Assembly with a group of five
:45:19. > :45:29.We would oppose when we thought the Government was doing bad things.
:45:30. > :45:31.For instance we were the only party to vote against
:45:32. > :45:35.We were the only party that has consistently voted
:45:36. > :45:37.against the new social services legislation
:45:38. > :45:40.which will mean for many people they will not get the care
:45:41. > :45:44.But where we have an opportunity to deliver policies and inject a bit
:45:45. > :45:47.of enthusiasm and dynamism and new ideas into the Government,
:45:48. > :45:56.So when we've had the opportunity to introduce our Welsh Pupil Premium,
:45:57. > :45:59.so we get extra money to our poorest children in education,
:46:00. > :46:01.we've used that opportunity, because otherwise to sit
:46:02. > :46:05.back and simply criticise from the sidelines would have meant
:46:06. > :46:07.those children wouldn't have got the resources that they need.
:46:08. > :46:11.Resources that are making a massive difference.
:46:12. > :46:13.We've seen over many years the gap between our poorest children
:46:14. > :46:15.and their well-off counterparts grow.
:46:16. > :46:18.It is because of a Welsh Liberal Democrat policy that we were able
:46:19. > :46:20.to persuade this tired Labour Government to introduce.
:46:21. > :46:24.We've seen that it has made a difference.
:46:25. > :46:29.My job has been to oppose absolutely the failures of this Government,
:46:30. > :46:33.but use the opportunities also to make a difference.
:46:34. > :46:36.I can't make all the difference I want to make, because I'm not
:46:37. > :46:41.But I'm not going to sit back and pass up on an opportunity
:46:42. > :46:42.to help put more money into education.
:46:43. > :46:46.I'm not going to sit back and pass up on the opportunity to stop
:46:47. > :46:48.a project that will see all of our resources being spent
:46:49. > :46:51.on one road in one part of Wales and let the rest
:46:52. > :46:57.But it's been a breeze for the Labour Government over
:46:58. > :47:02.Bearing in mind they don't have an overall majority,
:47:03. > :47:05.behind the scenes they have got no fear now of going into minority
:47:06. > :47:07.government after the past five years.
:47:08. > :47:16.And that tells you all you need to know about the attitude
:47:17. > :47:20.They think that because they are Labour they have a God-given right
:47:21. > :47:24.They may be in charge but they've got no dynamism,
:47:25. > :47:29.no ideas, no determination to make things better.
:47:30. > :47:32.Now my party here at this conference we've outlined in the fields
:47:33. > :47:35.of economic development how we are going to grow our Welsh small
:47:36. > :47:37.businesses to create more jobs, to protect us
:47:38. > :47:42.We've outlined how we are going to cut class sizes so that teachers
:47:43. > :47:45.have the time to devote to their pupils.
:47:46. > :47:47.We've outlined how we are going to invest in primary care
:47:48. > :47:51.so when people ring up at 8 o'clock on a Monday morning they are not
:47:52. > :47:54.told it is going to be three weeks before they see their GP.
:47:55. > :47:59.We've got a Government that currently has run out of ideas,
:48:00. > :48:03.is not ambitious for Wales, doesn't want to change things,
:48:04. > :48:13.is quite happy to sit back and let things happen.
:48:14. > :48:15.We want to change that in this election.
:48:16. > :48:16.Let's talk about the Assembly campaign.
:48:17. > :48:19.Have you bottomed out in Wales after that disastrous general
:48:20. > :48:22.Well, there's nothing more that you can say to describe
:48:23. > :48:26.Obviously these elections are challenging, but they were
:48:27. > :48:29.challenging for us five years ago, when people like your colleagues
:48:30. > :48:34.in the BBC and pollsters said we would be wiped out.
:48:35. > :48:45.We demonstrated by taking a very strong campaign out
:48:46. > :48:49.on to the streets into the communities and articulating
:48:50. > :48:51.very clearly why Welsh Liberal Democrats need to be
:48:52. > :48:54.in the Assembly, what we would do if we had the opportunity,
:48:55. > :48:59.we were able to return a strong group, a small group but a strong
:49:00. > :49:01.group which has punched above its weight.
:49:02. > :49:09.And used its influence to go good things.
:49:10. > :49:11.And used its influence to do good things.
:49:12. > :49:16.The first part of Europe that will have a law that will say
:49:17. > :49:19.that we will have safe staff levels on our hospital wards.
:49:20. > :49:20.We've used that influence and that power.
:49:21. > :49:23.If we can do that with five, imagine what we could do with more.
:49:24. > :49:26.The nurses is all part of this strategy to keep it simple,
:49:27. > :49:28.on the doorstep, the question, are people listening?
:49:29. > :49:36.I think they are listening, because we are honest enough to say
:49:37. > :49:38.to people look, as people who believe strongly on devolution,
:49:39. > :49:41.and my party campaigned for it for over 100 years,
:49:42. > :49:43.we recognise that devolution is not delivering for you,
:49:44. > :49:48.We recognise that we'll need to change the game
:49:49. > :49:51.if we are going to have the public services that we deserve
:49:52. > :49:55.If we are going to have the strong economy that's going to make our
:49:56. > :50:00.I believe people recognise the honesty in what we are saying
:50:01. > :50:02.about the failures of devolution, and they are receptive
:50:03. > :50:05.to the arguments that it doesn't have to be this way,
:50:06. > :50:09.As Welsh Liberal Democrats we've got the ideas,
:50:10. > :50:11.smaller class sizes, more nurses on our wards,
:50:12. > :50:17.Making sure we've got the mobile technology and the broadband
:50:18. > :50:19.technology to help businesses thrive.
:50:20. > :50:22.Would you consider doing a deal with Labour?
:50:23. > :50:25.I'm not here to speculate about what will happen
:50:26. > :50:31.My job in these coming weeks is to say to the people of Wales
:50:32. > :50:33.devolution hasn't delivered for you, we understand that.
:50:34. > :50:37.We are the party with the dynamism and the energy and the new,
:50:38. > :50:41.fresh ideas that will make a difference to solving the problems
:50:42. > :50:43.that you and your family are facing, making sure
:50:44. > :50:47.there are well-paid jobs in Wales, that your children will go
:50:48. > :50:50.to a great school, in class sizes that are manageable.
:50:51. > :50:52.That when you go to hospital there'll be the correct number
:50:53. > :50:57.And when you ring up you will get an appointment with your GP.
:50:58. > :51:00.What's clear to me is none of those things will happen if we have
:51:01. > :51:02.another five years of a Labour Government,
:51:03. > :51:04.who are tired, have run out of ideas.
:51:05. > :51:06.They think they have a God-given right to govern Wales.
:51:07. > :51:11.I don't think Wales can afford to have that Government
:51:12. > :51:14.Kirsty Williams, thank you very much.
:51:15. > :51:24.Now, would having an elected Mayor where you live
:51:25. > :51:29.They're launching a petition this week which could lead
:51:30. > :51:32.to a referendum in the capital on having its own elected Mayor.
:51:33. > :51:35.Bristol has had its own elected Mayor for four years now.
:51:36. > :51:37.In a moment, we'll be hearing the arguments for and against.
:51:38. > :51:40.But first, Cemlyn Davies has been over the Severn Bridge to see how
:51:41. > :51:44.and whether Cardiff could follow Bristol's example.
:51:45. > :51:46.Meet George Ferguson, Bristol's Marmite Mayor,
:51:47. > :51:53.Mr Ferguson was elected in 2012, shortly after the city voted
:51:54. > :51:58.in favour of having an elected Mayor.
:51:59. > :52:02.Since then this colourful character has certainly left his mark.
:52:03. > :52:05.With campaigners in Cardiff now hoping to have their own elected
:52:06. > :52:11.Mayor, where better to see what that could mean than Bristol.
:52:12. > :52:14.I think Bristol, I would say it wouldn't I, has benefited in terms
:52:15. > :52:18.of an awful lot of the things that didn't really get to happen are now
:52:19. > :52:21.happening as a result of the decision-making processes
:52:22. > :52:29.I think undoubtedly it does lead to greater action,
:52:30. > :52:31.but Cardiff should judge as to whether its politics
:52:32. > :52:38.So how does the system work here in Bristol?
:52:39. > :52:43.And what kind of response has there been?
:52:44. > :52:45.Well, the Mayor is elected for a four-year term.
:52:46. > :52:48.The role has replaced that of council leader,
:52:49. > :52:53.and the Mayor is responsible for the council's executive functions.
:52:54. > :52:56.He or she appoints a cabinet, including up to nine of the city's
:52:57. > :53:01.Each cabinet member can be given an area of responsibility,
:53:02. > :53:13.All key decisions must be taken by the cabinet as a whole.
:53:14. > :53:15.Meanwhile the remaining councillors professional a scrutiny role
:53:16. > :53:18.and have the power to call in a decision taken by the Mayor
:53:19. > :53:30.But they can't get rid of the Mayor during his or her time in office.
:53:31. > :53:32.Professor Robin Hambleton has carried out research looking at how
:53:33. > :53:34.the city has changed under an elected Mayor.
:53:35. > :53:37.I think we can show that the visibility of the leadership
:53:38. > :53:41.Many more people, a really large jump in the number of people knowing
:53:42. > :53:44.who the leader is and being pleased about the visibility of leadership
:53:45. > :53:46.and projecting the city outside the city internationally
:53:47. > :53:50.Also a stronger strategic vision for the city.
:53:51. > :53:54.I think Mayor Ferguson has delivered on that.
:53:55. > :53:59.There is no doubt Mayor Ferguson has brought Bristol to life.
:54:00. > :54:04.His efforts to make Sunday special have proved highly successful,
:54:05. > :54:06.drawing visitors to enjoy cultural events and activities
:54:07. > :54:14.Originally from Aberystwyth Katherine McDonnell now runs this
:54:15. > :54:22.She thinks the city has benefited from its elected Mayor.
:54:23. > :54:25.I think its generally a good thing, because he's an entrepreneur.
:54:26. > :54:33.He's really put Bristol on the map in Europe and further afield.
:54:34. > :54:38.He's a good character to have to identify with Bristol I think.
:54:39. > :54:40.There are always downsides but generally for Bristol
:54:41. > :54:47.with inward investment and publicity for Bristol it's been a good thing.
:54:48. > :54:56.What are those downsides? You ask anybody about George Ferguson and
:54:57. > :55:00.they will go, oh, the parking. Yes, the Mayor's decision to extend
:55:01. > :55:04.residents parking zones and limit spaces for drivers coming into the
:55:05. > :55:10.city has been highly controversial, resulting in protests like this one.
:55:11. > :55:15.Another disgrace and shame for Bristol! Some have accused the Mayor
:55:16. > :55:20.of making decisions without listening, and that, critics say, is
:55:21. > :55:24.an obvious flaw in the elected Mayor system. I think there has to be a
:55:25. > :55:29.set of checks and balances. If you have too much power in the hands of
:55:30. > :55:32.one individual, firstly that person becomes overloaded, because they
:55:33. > :55:37.can't take all the decisions that knead to be made in a timely way.
:55:38. > :55:43.But secondly there's a risk that power corrupts. And that people feel
:55:44. > :55:48.excluded. Excluded. I'm not accusing Mayors of being corrupt but the
:55:49. > :55:52.model concentrates power in one place and that can work against
:55:53. > :55:56.getting legitimacy for decisions. It is important for a Mayor to disperse
:55:57. > :56:00.some of their pair to other leaders in the City Council. The past four
:56:01. > :56:05.years have been a steep learning curve for Bristol and its Mayor and
:56:06. > :56:08.there could be lessons here for Cardiff too, should voters there be
:56:09. > :56:12.asked if they want an elected Mayor. But there is, of course, still a lot
:56:13. > :56:16.of water to go under the bridge before that happens.
:56:17. > :56:19.Here in the studio to talk about whether or not this would be
:56:20. > :56:21.a good idea for Cardiff are the Conservative MP
:56:22. > :56:24.Craig Williams, who's in favour, and the Leader of the Opposition
:56:25. > :56:30.on Cardiff Council, the Lib Dem, Judith Woodman, who's against.
:56:31. > :56:35.Thank you both for coming in. Craig Williams, you are in favour. What do
:56:36. > :56:39.you think would be the main benefit of this? First of all I'm in favour
:56:40. > :56:43.of the campaign we are kicking off this week, and that's a campaign
:56:44. > :56:47.just for a referendum. All we are asking for at the moment is that the
:56:48. > :56:53.people of Cardiff get a choice, get an opportunity to say whether they
:56:54. > :56:59.want a Mayor, or think don't. Why I want a Mayor and a referendum is
:57:00. > :57:03.that I think it is a shape up of the executive power on the city. There
:57:04. > :57:06.is no doubt, no matter who you speak to, no matter whatever party, the
:57:07. > :57:11.public services need that shake-up in our capital city. I think the
:57:12. > :57:16.executive power and the mayoral modellogical do that. The
:57:17. > :57:20.referendum, in 2012 there were 10 referenda across cities in England.
:57:21. > :57:24.Only Bristol voted for it. It doesn't tend to be a popular idea
:57:25. > :57:27.with the electorate. We've got to ask the people of Cardiff. English
:57:28. > :57:32.cities are getting this opportunity. Ten, and in England the threshold is
:57:33. > :57:36.only 5% of the electorate. In Wales they've moved it up to 10%. The
:57:37. > :57:40.establishment really is kicking back at this. They don't want that
:57:41. > :57:45.fundamental shake-up of the executive power which really would
:57:46. > :57:49.refresh public services in our city. Judith Woodman are you part of the
:57:50. > :57:53.establishment pushing against the chances of the people having a voice
:57:54. > :57:57.here? Yes, my group have given Mae clear steer on this. Having a
:57:58. > :58:01.referendum is one thing. Having the knowledge that you are actually
:58:02. > :58:07.going to vote for or against I think is crucial. At the moment, I don't
:58:08. > :58:12.think enough information is being given out there for people to make
:58:13. > :58:18.their decision. What will an elected Mayor cost? How will he be vetoed
:58:19. > :58:22.and scrutinised? But agree group believe that this is the wrong time
:58:23. > :58:26.to go for an elected Mayor now, because of the proposed local
:58:27. > :58:31.government reorganisation. But looking Timor broadly the principle
:58:32. > :58:36.here, in terms of the visibility of politicians had, Cemlyn touched on
:58:37. > :58:40.it there, Bristol University said in 2012, 24% of people in Bristol
:58:41. > :58:44.thought the city had visible leadership. Two years later it went
:58:45. > :58:47.up to 69%. There is no doubt that having a single figurehead increases
:58:48. > :58:52.the visibility of politicians. That must be a good thing surely? I do
:58:53. > :58:55.believe that's a good thing, but if we are being perfectly honest here
:58:56. > :58:59.the visibility of the elected Mayor is really what they are voting
:59:00. > :59:06.about. I don't think they are saying the same about the rest of the
:59:07. > :59:12.council. That again is promoting one person who has too much power, has
:59:13. > :59:16.those decisions. We heard on the programme earlier that it is the
:59:17. > :59:21.accountability that they are not particularly happy about. Some
:59:22. > :59:26.people. Craig Williams, address that point, that you get a lot of power
:59:27. > :59:30.concentrated in one person's Hans. I think that will be great in Wales to
:59:31. > :59:36.have power, accountability, to be able to get that vision and do
:59:37. > :59:42.things. I don't think the Lib Dem Mayor in Watford has too much power
:59:43. > :59:46.and is not accountable. Judith is in an awkward position, but the Lib
:59:47. > :59:51.Dems' argument against referendums, that was solid principle. It is. To
:59:52. > :59:54.give people the say, but I don't think it does that. What businesses
:59:55. > :59:59.and the residents of Cardiff are calling out for is clear leadership.
:00:00. > :00:02.Clear vision, and the put Cardiff on the international map. We've just
:00:03. > :00:07.heard from Bristol how the Mayor's really done that. I think the fact
:00:08. > :00:13.that all we are asking for is a referendum and to ask people whether
:00:14. > :00:17.you want a Mayor. We want to impose a Mayor, but just ask the residents
:00:18. > :00:24.of Cardiff if you want one. Why wouldn't you want a referendum on
:00:25. > :00:28.the issue I would like the referendum to give people very clear
:00:29. > :00:35.information what they are voting for. But we are facing now with the
:00:36. > :00:40.elections in 2017 for councils, councillors not being elected as
:00:41. > :00:44.think have before. With the local government reorganisation, Cardiff
:00:45. > :00:51.may not be Cardiff. We may be Cardiff and the Vale or Cardiff and
:00:52. > :00:56.Caerphilly. If you have an elected Mayor for Cardiff now, what happens
:00:57. > :01:04.then? Do you have to have another election for a regional Mayor? All
:01:05. > :01:09.that cost to the taxpayer. That's a good point. What I'm saying is
:01:10. > :01:13.having a referendum now is not the right time. Again, what you ask
:01:14. > :01:17.people to vote on, they need to know what it will cost and what their
:01:18. > :01:22.office costs will be. It is a point of timing is it? I agree with
:01:23. > :01:25.Judith's logic entirely but not the conclusion. Now is the time for the
:01:26. > :01:28.referendum. Grab the bull by the horns and tell the Welsh Government
:01:29. > :01:35.the kind of model that Cardiff wants. The kind of power, I want a
:01:36. > :01:41.Mayor for Cardiff and direct executive power. I want Cardiff to
:01:42. > :01:45.have its own entity and I think if we mandate them to a referendum to
:01:46. > :01:47.have a Mayor they will find it extremely difficult then to
:01:48. > :01:52.reorganise that. We are talking about Cardiff, because this is where
:01:53. > :01:56.the campaign is starting. But it could equally apply to Swansea,
:01:57. > :02:01.Wrexham or Bangor. Isn't there a point that the public would probably
:02:02. > :02:04.be, rightly, sceptical about an additional tier of Government here?
:02:05. > :02:10.That's the normal attack on this and it is not an additional tier. I
:02:11. > :02:15.would never support an additional tier. This is about grabbing the
:02:16. > :02:19.executive power of the council and giving it to one person directly
:02:20. > :02:25.accountable and elected who then appoint the cabinet. If if we had an
:02:26. > :02:28.independent business or independent cultural leader, they can turn to
:02:29. > :02:31.the council and put together their cabinet from across the political
:02:32. > :02:33.parties will. From the Independents, the Liberal Democrats and
:02:34. > :02:36.Conservatives, and deliver for the city. I want to take the tribal
:02:37. > :02:41.politics that's built up in the City Council. My 8 years there, I was a
:02:42. > :02:44.parliamentary candidate for some of itened I think I was the least
:02:45. > :02:49.tribal at times. How will you take out tribal politics by having one
:02:50. > :02:54.person, presumably related to a political party, to be the
:02:55. > :02:59.figurehead? Not necessarily. I think if you look at Watford or London,
:03:00. > :03:03.the one thing Boris did in London, he's appointed people from across
:03:04. > :03:08.party to lead where they are experts in their field. I think that's what
:03:09. > :03:12.Mayor does. You get that comfort of four years but I know you are hugely
:03:13. > :03:15.directly accountable and if you don't deliver, you are voted out.
:03:16. > :03:18.That's the point on accountability here. Essentially this would mean
:03:19. > :03:22.the leader of the council rather than being elected by councillors
:03:23. > :03:28.will be directly elected by the citizens. Why are saying that's a
:03:29. > :03:32.bad thing As it stands at the moment the leader can be got rid of the
:03:33. > :03:37.he's not performing. His own group... I did a vote of confidence
:03:38. > :03:42.in him, I tried, but you can't get rid of him. You could if he was that
:03:43. > :03:47.bad. When you have an elected Mayor he's there for four years no matter
:03:48. > :03:50.what, how bad he, is whatever. It is interesting that you say he can pick
:03:51. > :03:55.a cabinet across all different parties. There is no guarantee that
:03:56. > :04:00.he would do so. And none tls I come back, you've just said it, the more
:04:01. > :04:08.people who input into a decision, the better. Rather than one person
:04:09. > :04:11.directing it. And we'll keep all the councillors and the scrutiny that
:04:12. > :04:15.that will fulfil on the Mayor would be immense and it would go back to
:04:16. > :04:18.the old committee system. Sorry we have to leave it there. The campaign
:04:19. > :04:19.will be launched later on. Don't forget, you can follow
:04:20. > :04:22.all the latest on Twitter. We're @walespolitics,
:04:23. > :04:24.but for now, that's all from me. Diolch am wylio,
:04:25. > :04:34.thanks for watching. If you believe some of the polls -
:04:35. > :04:37.and we're not much inclined to these days - those arguing for Britain
:04:38. > :04:40.to leave the EU could be ahead of those who want us
:04:41. > :04:42.to remain a member. If true, it can't have much to do
:04:43. > :04:46.with the unity shown by those jostling to be picked
:04:47. > :04:50.as the official, designated leave campaign, as they've spent all week
:04:51. > :04:57.fighting like ferrets in a sack. UKIP MP Douglas Carswell
:04:58. > :05:00.was speaking to Andrew Marr earlier about one of the newer leave groups,
:05:01. > :05:03.called Grassroots Out or GO for short, which is
:05:04. > :05:07.hoping to be chosen. I was out at the weekend
:05:08. > :05:12.and the weekend before We've got a great ground
:05:13. > :05:15.game in Vote Leave. We've delivered
:05:16. > :05:16.millions of leaflets. I'm not going to be
:05:17. > :05:19.disrespectful of any They're led by people
:05:20. > :05:24.who've done this before. And I think what's important
:05:25. > :05:27.is that we make sure that people realise that David Cameron's
:05:28. > :05:37.deal is pretty duff. Well, Peter Bone is one
:05:38. > :05:53.of the MPs behind GO. Why should you get the official
:05:54. > :06:01.designation? Were not united and still 37, 43%, but it looks good,
:06:02. > :06:13.there are 42 grassroot campaigns made up of different people, and I
:06:14. > :06:18.think who should get designation, it is an establishment view that you
:06:19. > :06:27.have to have a top-down organisation like BSE, imposed from the top,
:06:28. > :06:30.there was nobody going out on the February morning is knocking on
:06:31. > :06:40.doors, there are 42 campaigns so this is from the grassroots up. It
:06:41. > :06:42.is not another campaigning organisation bringing everyone
:06:43. > :06:47.together and they still have independence. With this umbrella
:06:48. > :06:55.stop you from knocking each other? Aaron Banks, he has put money into
:06:56. > :07:04.Grassroots Out? It is funded by a number of individuals. Conservative
:07:05. > :07:10.donors... Here's one of them and he said that people in vote leave where
:07:11. > :07:19.two of the nastiest individuals I ever had the misfortune to leave.
:07:20. > :07:29.Kate Hoey, voting to quit. She is also voting for Vote Leave. Let us
:07:30. > :07:35.bring everyone together, this has to stop, last week whenever we had 100
:07:36. > :07:40.people from all of the different groups and parties working together,
:07:41. > :07:46.why cannot we get that at the top? One happy family working under the
:07:47. > :07:52.grassroots movement. You have that bright Grassroots Out tie on. This
:07:53. > :07:58.picture has more than just a tie on it. One of your colleagues,
:07:59. > :08:06.launching the campaign with the Union Jack jacket. People might
:08:07. > :08:09.remember the John Redwood leadership campaign would wonder if politicians
:08:10. > :08:17.want to be seen on the same platform as that? People are going out across
:08:18. > :08:24.the country, campaigning to come out of the EU. Not looking like that,
:08:25. > :08:34.looking like me! No, they don't want to look like me! Is this just
:08:35. > :08:39.journalist from? The poll has them ahead? The Electoral Commission in
:08:40. > :08:46.the next few weeks will have to designate one of these groups as the
:08:47. > :08:52.main out and in group and both sides are fighting like bad. The danger
:08:53. > :08:57.for the leaving camp is the group to win this referendum will be the
:08:58. > :09:00.group that wins the argument that it represents the safest option and the
:09:01. > :09:05.losing group will be portrayed as the riskiest. People like Douglas
:09:06. > :09:10.Carswell or deeply fearful of Nigel Farage as one of the main figures on
:09:11. > :09:15.the outside because in a good day he can get 30% of the electorate and
:09:16. > :09:25.that is why Grassroots Out is established, because the Aaron Banks
:09:26. > :09:32.group, he is funding the other group which has cross-party support and
:09:33. > :09:36.that will be important. Vote Leave, the more stable, steady safer option
:09:37. > :09:47.is now struggling on the cross-party option, particularly in that box.
:09:48. > :09:53.How do you know all that) it is also quite true. Why are you talking
:09:54. > :09:57.about the personalities and the policies and that is a reflection
:09:58. > :10:05.of, when we talk about policies people would enter a coma. Neither
:10:06. > :10:08.side has key messages, I don't think you could stop 100 people in the
:10:09. > :10:13.street and one could tell you anything that was in this and that
:10:14. > :10:20.is why we talk about personalities. We are doing our best! We have
:10:21. > :10:23.always exaggerated the importance of campaigns on election results and
:10:24. > :10:29.referendums and last I was told that because of Labour's assiduous work
:10:30. > :10:33.at ground level they would end up counteracting disadvantages like
:10:34. > :10:38.leadership and economic credibility so I have never believed that the
:10:39. > :10:42.internal rivalry would really hold them back and recent opinion polls
:10:43. > :10:46.have stood up to that. What really goes on their favour is the nature
:10:47. > :10:52.of the deal that David Cameron extracted last week because it is
:10:53. > :10:57.less impressive than was instigated in the Bloomberg speech and it will
:10:58. > :11:03.have to fight the referendum on the existing terms of membership and I
:11:04. > :11:06.think he can win that but he would have gone into the last four months
:11:07. > :11:12.of this campaign with something drastically different and not
:11:13. > :11:16.cosmetically different. That is right, the fundamental issues will
:11:17. > :11:20.be debated and we are all innovative this Westminster bubble thinking
:11:21. > :11:26.that Joe Bloggs says this and it matters but on the street, nobody
:11:27. > :11:31.can name any of these campaigns and the simple question is, in or out
:11:32. > :11:35.were undecided? That is what we're finding and a lot of people are
:11:36. > :11:41.undecided who say we have not heard the arguments and we clearly have to
:11:42. > :11:43.get our message out on leaving and that does concern emigration and
:11:44. > :11:49.controlling borders but also the fact that we pay 55th -- ?55 million
:11:50. > :11:57.every week to Europe and get nothing. You get half of that act.
:11:58. > :12:05.We don't. You do! We get a bit of that back. They decide how we spend
:12:06. > :12:13.it. You get it back as a rebate and you also get it back in funding from
:12:14. > :12:18.the EU? The facts will matter. How many billions of pounds each week
:12:19. > :12:23.goes to the EU that we have no control over? You said the gross
:12:24. > :12:30.figures... The net figure is about half of that. It is not. If you go
:12:31. > :12:36.into the detail I can assure you it is. Can you win this without any
:12:37. > :12:42.front person? Behead Minister of is heading up the game campaign. If he
:12:43. > :12:49.does not get what he wants he will be heading up the Grassroots Out
:12:50. > :12:55.campaign. -- I will be. You are not holding your breath. Who should be
:12:56. > :13:00.heading up your side? I don't want any figurehead. Who would debate
:13:01. > :13:07.with the Prime Minister? It depends on the issues. In or out, how about
:13:08. > :13:13.that? If you are talking about dozens, a businessman, trade unions,
:13:14. > :13:20.somebody from Labour Leave. Belgian rambler that a government... I will
:13:21. > :13:23.have to stop you expect thanks to all of the guests.
:13:24. > :13:26.Join us next Sunday at 11, when we'll be taking stock
:13:27. > :13:30.made by the Conservatives at last year's election and asking
:13:31. > :13:34.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.