:00:41. > :00:48.The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving
:00:49. > :00:50.the European Union puts jobs, security, even the world
:00:51. > :00:53.Many Tories don't like his arguments.
:00:54. > :00:57.David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be
:00:58. > :01:01.here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave -
:01:02. > :01:04.and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in.
:01:05. > :01:07.Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident -
:01:08. > :01:08.that didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday
:01:09. > :01:17.that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain.
:01:18. > :01:18.Following the death of young Conservative activist
:01:19. > :01:21.Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party,
:01:22. > :01:24.we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story
:01:25. > :01:37.It was hailed as the way forward for devolution, but what now
:01:38. > :01:40.for the Wales Bill as MPs say it should be paused?
:01:41. > :01:42.for the Wales Bill as MPs say it over Europe at the front runners
:01:43. > :01:44.take sides on the referendum. We assessed the impact on the male
:01:45. > :01:52.race. -- may roll race. All that to come -
:01:53. > :01:55.and with me for the duration, three journalists who show as much
:01:56. > :01:57.consensus on the big political For balance I should say they fall
:01:58. > :02:07.out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott
:02:08. > :02:10.and Janan Ganesh. And speaking of cabinet unity,
:02:11. > :02:13.there's a distinct lack of it
:02:14. > :02:14.in this morning's papers of campaigning since David Cameron
:02:15. > :02:17.announced that a referendum on Britain's EU membership will take
:02:18. > :02:20.place on the 23rd of June. The Fleet Street hounds have caught
:02:21. > :02:23.the scent of a good old-fashioned Conservative feud over Europe,
:02:24. > :02:26.and with the party and the cabinet divided over whether Britain should
:02:27. > :02:28.stay or go, they're not The Sunday Times says
:02:29. > :02:32.David Cameron has been warned that he'll face a leadership
:02:33. > :02:34.challenge if he doesn't call a halt to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks
:02:35. > :02:37.on fellow Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph reports
:02:38. > :02:39.on the 'battle of wills' between the two sides
:02:40. > :02:44.with pieces by David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith,
:02:45. > :02:47.who says 'they can sack me The Observer leads with
:02:48. > :02:53.Number 10's main message, which is to say that a British
:02:54. > :02:56.exit would spark decades And the Mail on Sunday says
:02:57. > :03:06.the Tory feud turned really nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip
:03:07. > :03:09.Hammond had what it called So it seems fair to say that
:03:10. > :03:13.relations between David Cameron and eurosceptics in his party
:03:14. > :03:15.aren't exactly cordial. The welfare secretary
:03:16. > :03:17.Iain Duncan Smith, he's one of the cabinet ministers arguing
:03:18. > :03:29.to leave, was asked about it You don't think the Prime Minister
:03:30. > :03:33.is much of a patriot, do you? This is not about personalities. They in
:03:34. > :03:40.campaign's whole strategy seems to be about, it is terrible, it is
:03:41. > :03:43.about saying that we are too small, too inconsequential and we cannot do
:03:44. > :03:46.what we want. I don't know why anybody would want to run a country
:03:47. > :03:52.like this. This country is the greatest honour. I think probably
:03:53. > :03:56.the first time a cabinet minister has been asked if the Prime Minister
:03:57. > :04:02.is a patriot and he does not reply yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone
:04:03. > :04:05.and the content of this right? I think he made a big mistake earlier
:04:06. > :04:10.this week when he lashed out at Boris Johnson in the Commons. I
:04:11. > :04:14.think there was a degree of over interpreting those comments, and I
:04:15. > :04:19.understand that there was a fuss about whether or not he had slighted
:04:20. > :04:23.Boris Johnson's personal life with a reference to knowing couples that
:04:24. > :04:27.had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he had Boris in the bag. He was
:04:28. > :04:32.certainly bruised by that. The comment on marriage went over
:04:33. > :04:40.Doris's aired, so there was a bit of over interpreting by people on all
:04:41. > :04:46.sides. -- over progress's aired. But if Cameron is being called to stop
:04:47. > :04:49.these attacks, he is the one who started them. Europe is just another
:04:50. > :04:54.word for division in the Tory Party but it almost seems like the manner
:04:55. > :04:59.and the tone of what the prime ministers saying, he is almost going
:05:00. > :05:04.out of his way to upset those opposed to him. I disagree. I think
:05:05. > :05:08.the grievances in the papers today are spurious. It has not been a blue
:05:09. > :05:12.on blue campaign so far, not a huge amount of animosity and poison so
:05:13. > :05:16.far although it is early days. Do they expect him not to play the
:05:17. > :05:20.economic risk card? Do they expect him to go through the next four mums
:05:21. > :05:24.using the single most devastating line of attack he has against the
:05:25. > :05:27.other side, which is the unknown economic has heard of taking a punt
:05:28. > :05:33.on Brexit? But that argument would be true even if he had brought back
:05:34. > :05:37.the store from Brussels or brought back nothing from Brussels. The
:05:38. > :05:43.economic argument is that this could be a profound shock to the world
:05:44. > :05:48.economy. That is either true or not true, regardless of the settlement.
:05:49. > :05:52.But that is not the given reason for their frustration with him. At the
:05:53. > :05:56.moment they are focusing on the tone and negativity. And you don't feel
:05:57. > :06:00.like they have the right to be aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre
:06:01. > :06:04.Prime Minister to lead a campaign in favour of staying in without
:06:05. > :06:09.deploying his most effective weapon. And what Mr Osborne is doing with
:06:10. > :06:12.this argument is have one very simple, crude argument in the
:06:13. > :06:16.general election, that Labour was not credible, and in this campaign
:06:17. > :06:21.that it is a leap in the dark. He needs to be careful. The idea that
:06:22. > :06:24.the world economy is going to tank because Britain leaves the European
:06:25. > :06:30.Union, that Britain leaving the union is up there with the Chinese
:06:31. > :06:34.fall in growth, it is absurd. What did George Osborne do? Equalled the
:06:35. > :06:37.G20 finance ministers to write that into their conclusions. Yes, it will
:06:38. > :06:41.be a challenge for the British economy if we leave the European
:06:42. > :06:45.Union, but the idea that it is up there as a global risk that will
:06:46. > :06:48.lead to some great world economic depression, I think he needs to be
:06:49. > :06:52.careful. He has to ensure that what he does has credibility and I am not
:06:53. > :06:55.sure that passes the test. What annoys a lot of the Tories is that
:06:56. > :06:58.they are using arguments about staying in which I've always been
:06:59. > :07:04.true, regardless of whether or not the settlement makes any difference.
:07:05. > :07:09.To say that if we came out, there would be a profound economic shock,
:07:10. > :07:13.that is true regardless of the settlement. I think that is what
:07:14. > :07:18.annoys the Eurosceptics. They are using arguments that were true six
:07:19. > :07:20.months ago. And many of the arguments are very thin. David
:07:21. > :07:24.Cameron has written for the Telegraph today saying that he can
:07:25. > :07:29.describe exactly what people will be voting for if they vote to stay in.
:07:30. > :07:33.It is the status quo, it is not very difficult to describe that. It is
:07:34. > :07:38.very frustrating for Eurosceptics that there is this constant spurious
:07:39. > :07:42.claim by the In campaign that they cannot describe what Out looks like.
:07:43. > :07:48.They describe what it looks like everyday. The problem is that it is
:07:49. > :07:51.under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that exit people cannot
:07:52. > :07:54.guarantee the deal. They can say it might be this or that but they
:07:55. > :07:58.cannot guarantee it because we are out of the European Council the
:07:59. > :08:01.moment we press the button. You wonder whether either side can
:08:02. > :08:09.guarantee what the country will be like whether we stay in or come out.
:08:10. > :08:17.We have a pretty good idea of who will be fighting on which site.
:08:18. > :08:19.Both the Leave and the Remain camps have their own big figures,
:08:20. > :08:22.and they wasted little time in putting aside old loyalties
:08:23. > :08:26.Let's have a look at some of the big moments of the week.
:08:27. > :08:29.I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings
:08:30. > :08:32.but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order
:08:33. > :08:39.This open border does not allow us to check and control people who may
:08:40. > :08:42.come and we have seen what has happened in Paris where they spent
:08:43. > :08:47.ages planning and plotting so who is to say it is not
:08:48. > :08:50.beyond the wit of man that those might already be thinking about it?
:08:51. > :08:53.Today almost 200 of Britain's biggest firms including 36
:08:54. > :08:55.on the FTSE 100 index published a letter warning that so-called
:08:56. > :09:06.Brexit would put the economy at risk.
:09:07. > :09:11.We have a great opportunity now to strike new deals for Britain
:09:12. > :09:14.to be the hub of new trading arrangements around the world
:09:15. > :09:18.and to have a fantastic new future so that is what I am going for.
:09:19. > :09:20.In my judgment as Chancellor leaving the EU would represent a profound
:09:21. > :09:24.economic shock for our country, for all of us and I am going to do
:09:25. > :09:27.everything I can to prevent that happening.
:09:28. > :09:30.The European Court of Justice interprets the European Union
:09:31. > :09:32.treaties and until this agreement is embodied in treaty change then
:09:33. > :09:38.the European Court of Justice is not bound by this agreement.
:09:39. > :09:41.You saw there a few of the Conservative allies
:09:42. > :09:44.David Cameron has failed to persuade of the case for remaining in the EU,
:09:45. > :09:47.and now I'm joined by another one - the former party leader,
:09:48. > :09:51.Tory peer and leave campaign Michael Howard.
:09:52. > :09:57.Welcome to the programme. Let's start on this idea of a second
:09:58. > :10:01.referendum. You have indicated that a vote to leave could jolt the rest
:10:02. > :10:05.of the EU into giving us a better and bigger and more compounds of
:10:06. > :10:08.deal. That could trigger a second referendum. Mr Cameron says that is
:10:09. > :10:15.fiction and Boris Johnson now says the same. Are you sticking to that?
:10:16. > :10:21.Yes. I cannot guarantee that would happen but it is a possibility.
:10:22. > :10:26.Everybody who wants us to vote Remain is going to say it is for the
:10:27. > :10:32.birds, and I understand that. There want us to vote to remain. Mr
:10:33. > :10:35.Johnson is saying that, too. And I don't agree with him. We have
:10:36. > :10:39.reached the same conclusion by different routes. The European Union
:10:40. > :10:42.has form on this. They have done it before in relation to Ireland and
:10:43. > :10:49.Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as
:10:50. > :10:52.an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest
:10:53. > :10:57.economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact
:10:58. > :11:00.that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union
:11:01. > :11:03.budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left
:11:04. > :11:07.and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European
:11:08. > :11:13.leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks
:11:14. > :11:18.and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would
:11:19. > :11:22.happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst
:11:23. > :11:25.crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything
:11:26. > :11:29.that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other
:11:30. > :11:35.countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a
:11:36. > :11:40.crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they
:11:41. > :11:44.would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't
:11:45. > :11:49.come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European
:11:50. > :11:54.Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the
:11:55. > :12:03.economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies,
:12:04. > :12:08.household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs
:12:09. > :12:13.and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them?
:12:14. > :12:19.First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100
:12:20. > :12:23.companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from
:12:24. > :12:28.me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King,
:12:29. > :12:30.the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday
:12:31. > :12:34.that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt.
:12:35. > :12:39.Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted
:12:40. > :12:44.economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many
:12:45. > :12:51.FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many
:12:52. > :12:55.business people are, particularly small business people. And
:12:56. > :12:59.particularly business people who do most of their business with
:13:00. > :13:03.countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the
:13:04. > :13:06.rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this
:13:07. > :13:09.letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of
:13:10. > :13:14.people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come
:13:15. > :13:21.election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you,
:13:22. > :13:26.but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one
:13:27. > :13:30.thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up
:13:31. > :13:34.when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point
:13:35. > :13:36.about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through
:13:37. > :13:44.the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that
:13:45. > :13:48.I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy
:13:49. > :13:51.restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be
:13:52. > :13:55.subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will
:13:56. > :14:01.recover control of our borders and we will have control over who comes
:14:02. > :14:05.in and who doesn't. Number three, we will no longer have to contribute
:14:06. > :14:09.billions of pounds a year to the EU's budget. Those are certainties,
:14:10. > :14:15.indisputable. The onus is on those who wish us to remain 2.2 similar
:14:16. > :14:22.indisputable arguments which outweigh those and so far I have not
:14:23. > :14:29.seen them. But does it not worry you that all of our allies in the G20
:14:30. > :14:32.want us to stay in. Only President Putin among world leaders once asked
:14:33. > :14:38.to leave? Does that not cause you concerned? The British people are
:14:39. > :14:46.the best people to decide what is in our interest. You could also site
:14:47. > :14:51.the Attorney General of the United States, who said that of the
:14:52. > :14:54.European Union was undermining the intelligence sharing that is so
:14:55. > :14:59.crucial in our fight against terrorism and crime. So now, it is
:15:00. > :15:04.the British people who are the best people to decide what is in our
:15:05. > :15:07.interest. The Prime Minister says there are 3 million jobs that depend
:15:08. > :15:13.in some way on our trade in the European Union. He says we would not
:15:14. > :15:18.go training -- we would go on trading with the EU, if we left, but
:15:19. > :15:22.would the trade be at the same level? How many of these jobs would
:15:23. > :15:26.be truly safe? Can you answer that question? They want to continue
:15:27. > :15:31.trading with us and we are the biggest export market for the rest
:15:32. > :15:35.of the European Union. And we run a great deficit on trade with them so
:15:36. > :15:42.it is very much in their interest to continue to trade with us. We could
:15:43. > :15:47.do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax -- we could lose. I do not think the
:15:48. > :15:52.Germans would not continue selling as BMWs, or the French wine. If they
:15:53. > :15:56.want to continue to have access to our market, we need to make sure we
:15:57. > :16:01.have access to theirs. It is in our mutual interest. You say that all 3
:16:02. > :16:07.million jobs are guaranteed? I cannot offer you any guarantees and
:16:08. > :16:11.neither can the banister. The great arts profit of integration as he did
:16:12. > :16:17.very well, when he said that if the British do not want to sign up to
:16:18. > :16:19.further integration in the European Union, we can have a very friendly
:16:20. > :16:22.relationship with them, we can sign up to a free-trade agreement with
:16:23. > :16:26.them and that would be the way forward.
:16:27. > :16:31.Let me show you what the current Home Secretary who is the longest
:16:32. > :16:48.serving Home Secretary says: I have great respect for her, I
:16:49. > :16:55.don't quite know why she says that. I believe that we can continue to
:16:56. > :17:00.have a very good and constructive working relationship with the member
:17:01. > :17:05.states of the EU on security matters if we leave. The reason I say that
:17:06. > :17:09.is simply this, we contribute a great deal to that relationship, our
:17:10. > :17:13.intelligence services are the best in Europe. They want the help we can
:17:14. > :17:18.give them and so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should
:17:19. > :17:22.not continue to have a close relationship with them on these
:17:23. > :17:27.matters on an intergovernmental basis. The declaration of the
:17:28. > :17:33.European Council, which I know you have read as carefully as I have,
:17:34. > :17:37.says in terms, national security is our responsibility of the nation
:17:38. > :17:42.states. One thing we would not have access to is the European arrest
:17:43. > :17:43.warrant. We could come to an agreement on that. Let's say what
:17:44. > :17:57.you said on that: it wouldn't be if we left. It could,
:17:58. > :18:01.because we could easily reach an agreement with the Europeans that
:18:02. > :18:05.the essentials of the European arrest warrant continued in force.
:18:06. > :18:10.Not all my friends on the leading side with that that I think it would
:18:11. > :18:17.be possible to reach such an agreement. No other non-EU member
:18:18. > :18:23.has use of the arrest warrant. No other nonmember is in the same
:18:24. > :18:29.relationship as we are. We don't know. It was used to bring back one
:18:30. > :18:33.of the failed London bombers from Italy and it came back quickly and
:18:34. > :18:38.the arrest warrant. He is now in jail, how would we do that? That is
:18:39. > :18:43.why I was in favour of it at the time and I think because we offer so
:18:44. > :18:49.much to our European neighbours in terms of the capacity which we bring
:18:50. > :18:53.to these issues they would be keen to continue in that sort of
:18:54. > :19:07.arrangement with us if we left the European Union. Let me show you what
:19:08. > :19:19.Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe all -- Europol said. The head of
:19:20. > :19:25.Europol, British, the longest serving Home Secretary, both think
:19:26. > :19:29.that our security would be more at risk. And the Attorney General of
:19:30. > :19:36.the United States accuses the European Union of undermining the
:19:37. > :19:41.fight against terrorism and I think in all of these issues we need to
:19:42. > :19:46.have some self confidence and self belief. We are a big country, an
:19:47. > :19:49.important country and we have a huge amount to offer in terms of
:19:50. > :19:54.cooperation with our neighbours. It is in the interest to continue to
:19:55. > :19:57.cooperate with us and I have no doubt we could reach perfectly
:19:58. > :20:03.satisfactory arrangements with them if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr
:20:04. > :20:07.Cameron was once your special adviser, you were his mentor and you
:20:08. > :20:12.told his mother one day that he would be Prime Minister, what did he
:20:13. > :20:16.say when you told him you are joining the league side? We had a
:20:17. > :20:22.difficult conversation, I find it difficult to be on the opposite side
:20:23. > :20:26.of the argument to David Cameron. He was very disappointed I had come to
:20:27. > :20:29.this conclusion and I understand and respect that. Michael Howard, thank
:20:30. > :20:33.you for being with us. So that's the case for leaving put
:20:34. > :20:35.by an elder statesman Let's turn now to an elder statesman
:20:36. > :20:39.of the Labour Party - although he's a fresh-faced one -
:20:40. > :20:42.it's Alan Johnson and he is leading the Labour In for Britain Group,
:20:43. > :20:54.and he's in Hull. Your side of the argument stresses
:20:55. > :21:01.the risks and uncertainties of leaving the EU, do you accept there
:21:02. > :21:05.are risks and uncertainties with staying? No. Not in the sense that
:21:06. > :21:10.Michael Howard was suggesting. I thought what he said was wrong, he
:21:11. > :21:13.said he could guarantee we would not be contributing to the European
:21:14. > :21:17.Union and could guarantee there would not be free movement but he
:21:18. > :21:21.cannot. If we take the Norway option which many of those on the leading
:21:22. > :21:27.site promote then we would indeed be paying them, Norway is the 10th
:21:28. > :21:33.biggest contributor. They have free movement. Why would we have to
:21:34. > :21:38.follow what Norway does? They are a small economy and we are the second
:21:39. > :21:44.largest in Europe? I am just saying that there are other options, the
:21:45. > :21:48.Swiss option once again. Michael cannot guarantee it. We are the
:21:49. > :21:53.fifth biggest economy, we were the fourth when we were in government,
:21:54. > :21:58.but people say that only leaving side but they do not equate it at
:21:59. > :22:03.all with 41 years of membership of the EU. Part of that economic
:22:04. > :22:10.strength, I am in Hull where there is the biggest investment any where
:22:11. > :22:17.in the world by Siemens, billions of pounds and 1000 jobs. They are
:22:18. > :22:28.building wind turbines for offshore Britain. It was fierce competition,
:22:29. > :22:33.if you take... They are building stuff Britain, why would they not do
:22:34. > :22:36.it here? If you take Britain outside the EU you have all kinds of
:22:37. > :22:43.uncertainties and all kinds of possible barriers. The Society of
:22:44. > :22:48.motor manufacturers point out that whilst sales to China and Russia
:22:49. > :22:56.have declined their sales to Europe are up by 10% because we don't pay
:22:57. > :23:00.any tariffs to export into Europe. The other point I wanted to mention
:23:01. > :23:05.was that Michael was part of a government which opted out of
:23:06. > :23:09.something called the social chapter, basic protection for workers. In
:23:10. > :23:14.this huge market, the biggest commercial market, bigger than China
:23:15. > :23:18.and America, there are protections for workers. Michael opted out of
:23:19. > :23:23.those and I believe that he and many others think that is good to not
:23:24. > :23:28.have those protections. We opted back in. For us those protections
:23:29. > :23:32.for workers, to avoid this country becoming a race to the bottom,
:23:33. > :23:39.anything goes kind of free-market experiment, are very important. Hold
:23:40. > :23:42.on, why couldn't the British government, why wouldn't a British
:23:43. > :23:45.government outside the EU replicate these rights if it was so minded,
:23:46. > :23:51.what would stop us from doing that if the government got the democratic
:23:52. > :23:55.will of the British people? The first point is as I have explained
:23:56. > :24:00.that a British government chose not to do that. That was Alex Goode
:24:01. > :24:06.British government. The British government that we were part of
:24:07. > :24:09.opted into those arrangements. There is nothing to suggest in the history
:24:10. > :24:14.of Conservative government that if we left the EU that they would opt
:24:15. > :24:17.into all this. That would be a matter for the British people to
:24:18. > :24:23.choose if they wanted that government. If we let the EU at the
:24:24. > :24:27.next election Labour would promise four weeks paid leave, rights for
:24:28. > :24:30.workers, paid maternity at the next election and if that is what the
:24:31. > :24:36.British people want they will vote for you? The people who want us to
:24:37. > :24:40.leave, the argument I am making, is that the people who want us to leave
:24:41. > :24:45.consider all of that to be red tape. They consider all of that to be
:24:46. > :24:50.bureaucracy. We believe in that kind of market that there has to be
:24:51. > :24:53.protection for consumers, for the environment and for workers. That is
:24:54. > :25:01.an important part of what Europe gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway,
:25:02. > :25:04.Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all score highly even on the trade
:25:05. > :25:10.unionist global workers rights index. Why wouldn't an independent
:25:11. > :25:14.UK, if voters were so minded to do so and I don't see any mainstream
:25:15. > :25:22.politician saying they would want to take away four weeks paid leave, why
:25:23. > :25:31.does it need Europe to do it? That's a very good question. In this
:25:32. > :25:34.country alone, it is a political consensus in countries like Norway
:25:35. > :25:38.and Sweden that there should be decent basic rights for workers. In
:25:39. > :25:49.this country it is an election issue. Why shouldn't it be an
:25:50. > :25:53.election issue? I believe if you are trading into this huge market and
:25:54. > :25:57.have got all those opportunities to trade then one aspect of that must
:25:58. > :26:02.be that you don't undercut each other on the basis of terms and
:26:03. > :26:06.conditions. I believe it's an essential part of being in Europe
:26:07. > :26:11.and that is why it is an important part of our campaign to maintain
:26:12. > :26:15.those rights and protections. Moving on to immigration, people are
:26:16. > :26:18.concerned about the scale of it, is there anything in the settlement of
:26:19. > :26:23.David Cameron that'll make a material difference to immigration
:26:24. > :26:31.from the EU? Yes there is, it is very underrated nice to. Two points
:26:32. > :26:36.which were negotiated by Theresa May that were not in the package that we
:26:37. > :26:39.saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were very important. First of all
:26:40. > :26:44.tackling sham marriages and secondly to say that people coming into this
:26:45. > :26:50.country who we suspect might be engaged in the future in activities
:26:51. > :26:54.we would find criminal or perhaps terrorism, that we can stop them
:26:55. > :27:00.coming in. That is important, at the moment it is based on what we know,
:27:01. > :27:04.not on what we predict. Sham marriages with their largely to the
:27:05. > :27:09.subcontinent and is very little to do with Europe. You asked me for two
:27:10. > :27:15.things... I don't know what difference it would make to the
:27:16. > :27:18.numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000 per year net migration coming to
:27:19. > :27:28.this country and it will continue at that level if we stay in want it?
:27:29. > :27:33.There is nothing we can do about net EU migration at that level.
:27:34. > :27:40.Absolutely. I have said that before. It was David Cameron's package. In
:27:41. > :27:42.fairness of people making contributions before taking
:27:43. > :27:46.working-class tax credits but I never thought this was a draw for
:27:47. > :27:53.people to come -- taking working tax credits. We can do something to stop
:27:54. > :27:59.the expectation and we don't need the rest of Europe to do that, I
:28:00. > :28:03.think David Cameron was right, you are right about free movement within
:28:04. > :28:07.the European Union but people are worried about movement coming from
:28:08. > :28:11.outside the European Union and outside the European Union ourselves
:28:12. > :28:16.I think we would be weaker. Not just because we'll would the protection
:28:17. > :28:20.of the Dublin accord -- not just because we will lose. The most
:28:21. > :28:26.honourable point is Calais to Dover and that operation of the Border
:28:27. > :28:33.Force moving to Calais, the mayor comes over and says teacher border
:28:34. > :28:36.backed every couple of months. That is between France and Britain, it is
:28:37. > :28:42.nothing to do with the European Union. This is the point and I think
:28:43. > :28:48.this is what Michael missed, if we wrench ourselves away from the
:28:49. > :28:52.European Union after 41 years of membership, does anyone think there
:28:53. > :29:00.will be huge goodwill out there for Britain? Here is another point about
:29:01. > :29:03.French politics, the French presidential right wing campaigns
:29:04. > :29:09.who might well win next year are saying they will get rid of it even
:29:10. > :29:16.if we stay in the European Union. There you are. So what is the point?
:29:17. > :29:22.Nothing to do with the EU. I don't think anybody doubt that if we left
:29:23. > :29:27.the EU it would seriously bring into jeopardy that arrangement and that
:29:28. > :29:33.is the most vulnerable entry point. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not
:29:34. > :29:42.look upon immigration as a problem. Do you agree in the context of this
:29:43. > :29:46.debate about Europe? Only in the sense that it is not the driving
:29:47. > :29:52.force, people don't come here, they come here to work by and large, they
:29:53. > :29:57.don't come here to claim benefits. In that respect I do. I think as
:29:58. > :30:03.Jeremy accepts the exploitation which comes with it needs to be
:30:04. > :30:09.addressed. So to be clear the scale of immigration if we stay in the EU
:30:10. > :30:14.does not change. It might do. I will tell you why it might do, I was Home
:30:15. > :30:21.Secretary before Theresa May, the net migration figure was around
:30:22. > :30:25.165,000, very low. Because we had just gone through the collapse of
:30:26. > :30:31.Liman brothers and the economy was doing badly. If we come out of the
:30:32. > :30:36.EU and are in such a state as far as our economy is concerned it might
:30:37. > :30:40.stop people wanting to come here. OK, you said we have the best
:30:41. > :30:45.lyrics, meaning your side, but we are still struggling to put them to
:30:46. > :30:52.music, why can't you find the right chin? What I meant by that is they
:30:53. > :30:58.have simplistic let's regain the borders and regain our sovereign
:30:59. > :31:04.three and it's quite a complex argument to say actually we have got
:31:05. > :31:10.the best of both worlds. Yes we have some sovereign tree into Europe but
:31:11. > :31:14.that gives us influence over other member states and gives us a louder
:31:15. > :31:20.voice and a more powerful voice in the rest of the world. We will give
:31:21. > :31:26.you that, you love your music so we will give you time to find a tune
:31:27. > :31:31.until we meet again. Alan Johnson, thank you.
:31:32. > :31:33.Let's turn now to the bullying allegations surrounding the death
:31:34. > :31:34.of young Conservative activist Elliott Johnson.
:31:35. > :31:38.An inquest is due to open this week after the 21-year-old was found dead
:31:39. > :31:42.It's thought he took his own life weeks after raising allegations
:31:43. > :31:45.about the way he was being treated in the Conservatives' youth wing.
:31:46. > :31:52.He left behind a suicide note naming two other activists.
:31:53. > :31:57.Today, one of them, a man called Andre Walker,
:31:58. > :31:59.speaks out about his relationship with Elliott Johnson
:32:00. > :32:01.and the bullying allegations for the first time.
:32:02. > :32:10.For nearly six months a grieving family, friends,
:32:11. > :32:13.colleagues and the media have been trying to fathom why a young
:32:14. > :32:14.conservative activist, 21-year-old Elliot Johnson,
:32:15. > :32:17.lay down on a railway line and took his own life.
:32:18. > :32:20.The student vote is really important.
:32:21. > :32:23.Just months before, he had been an enthusiastic volunteer for Road
:32:24. > :32:26.We are going to be deciding the general election.
:32:27. > :32:30.This was the brainchild of a former Conservative candidate,
:32:31. > :32:33.Mark Clarke, that would bus young conservatives around the country
:32:34. > :32:36.to campaign on doorsteps during the 2015 general election.
:32:37. > :32:56.Are you going to help change the future of our country?
:32:57. > :32:59.Since the death of Elliott, lurid headlines have reported
:33:00. > :33:00.complaints being made against Mr Clarke
:33:01. > :33:03.of bullying, sexual impropriety and blackmail in relation
:33:04. > :33:06.All of which Mr Clarke vigorously denies.
:33:07. > :33:08.Accusations of a Conservative cover-up have led to the resignation
:33:09. > :33:10.of former party co-chairman Grant Shapps, pressure
:33:11. > :33:13.on the current chairman Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned
:33:14. > :33:16.from the party for life, and an internal party investigation
:33:17. > :33:19.underway already widely criticised by the Johnson family.
:33:20. > :33:23.Elliott left a note to be read after his death directly accusing
:33:24. > :33:25.Mr Clarke of bullying him and another person,
:33:26. > :33:34.The note was not all that Elliott left, there was also a secret
:33:35. > :33:38.recording of a night at a pub with all three of them
:33:39. > :33:41.in which Andre Walker appears aggressive and threatening over
:33:42. > :34:02.an official complaint Elliott was going to make about Mr Clarke.
:34:03. > :34:07.In the six months which have followed, Andre Walker has been
:34:08. > :34:10.portrayed in the media as Mr Clarke's henchmen,
:34:11. > :34:21.ready to strongarm those who stood in his way.
:34:22. > :34:24.Now in his first interview Mr Walker gives his side of events
:34:25. > :34:26.nature of his friendship with Elliot Johnson.
:34:27. > :34:30.The Andre Walker that the public has seen so far in relation to this
:34:31. > :34:32.story, is that an Andre Walker you recognise?
:34:33. > :34:36.If I take you back to the day that the covert recording took
:34:37. > :34:39.place, Elliott asked me to come with him to meet with Mark Clarke
:34:40. > :34:42.which was a meeting that he wanted to discuss the problems they had.
:34:43. > :34:45.I met Elliott beforehand and we went to the pub together and met Mark.
:34:46. > :34:47.What you hear is me getting frustrated partway through
:34:48. > :34:51.What you don't hear, what wasn't released to most
:34:52. > :34:54.of the media was at the end Elliott inviting me back to his place
:34:55. > :35:00.because I had missed the last train and us leaving the pub together.
:35:01. > :35:02.If you look at that secret recording, it sounds
:35:03. > :35:07.like you are some kind of hatchet man for Mark Clarke.
:35:08. > :35:14.I think everyone who is fat and from the North of England
:35:15. > :35:17.and involved in politics gets accused of being a bruiser
:35:18. > :35:20.and it is something I never took particularly seriously,
:35:21. > :35:25.I don't recognise the criticism and I think the media has called
:35:26. > :35:28.almost everyone I have ever met in politics and who are these
:35:29. > :35:29.people that I bullied or threatened or harangued?
:35:30. > :35:32.Nobody has come forward, in fact there is plenty of evidence
:35:33. > :35:34.that I didn't do any of those things.
:35:35. > :35:36.What was the nature of the relationship
:35:37. > :35:40.So, Mark Clarke introduced me to Elliott because we both had
:35:41. > :35:43.We hit it off straightaway and the relationship started
:35:44. > :35:50.It lasted until the day he died, as far as I was concerned.
:35:51. > :35:53.The reason I have been coy about that is I know that saying
:35:54. > :35:58.I'm very sorry about that and it is not my intention to go out
:35:59. > :36:04.We have got to discuss this issue, we have to discuss the issue
:36:05. > :36:07.of homophobia and why people, even as close to him as me were not
:36:08. > :36:09.told about the mental health problems.
:36:10. > :36:11.This is a reference to a British Transport Police report
:36:12. > :36:20.prepared ahead of this weeks inquest seen by Mr Walker.
:36:21. > :36:30.The Daily Mail has reported that it suggests:
:36:31. > :36:32.But also that Elliot Johnson had made previous
:36:33. > :36:38.health issues relating to his being accepted as gay.
:36:39. > :36:41.Speaking to the BBC in response to the story, his father denies
:36:42. > :36:51.It is not relevant, Elliott took his life because he had been
:36:52. > :36:54.bullied and picked on generally by certain persons and let down
:36:55. > :36:56.by other organisations around the Conservative Party.
:36:57. > :37:02.He was treated badly, that is why he took his life.
:37:03. > :37:11.He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want
:37:12. > :37:14.to make sure that he receives justice for what happened to him.
:37:15. > :37:16.Many of Andre Walker's old friends have blamed him and shunned him.
:37:17. > :37:19.He says that has prevented him from being able to grieve.
:37:20. > :37:21.I was not able to go to the funeral service.
:37:22. > :37:24.Because of the things which were said about me.
:37:25. > :37:26.That was very hurtful because I would have liked
:37:27. > :37:29.Similarly I don't know where Elliott's final resting place is,
:37:30. > :37:32.I would like to visit it, whether that is going to be possible
:37:33. > :37:39.The one memorial service I was able to go to somebody screamed at me
:37:40. > :37:43.and I was effectively thrown out which has just made it impossible
:37:44. > :37:46.for me to pay my respects in the way that I feel I ought to.
:37:47. > :37:49.How would you describe Elliott as a person?
:37:50. > :37:54.He was great fun, we used to go out and have a real laugh and I think
:37:55. > :37:58.that this sort of sad life which people have characterised him
:37:59. > :38:07.as having in London where it was all very depressing and he didn't have
:38:08. > :38:10.many friends and people were bullying him on a day-to-day
:38:11. > :38:14.basis, to my mind is surely not him at all and I think it is sad that
:38:15. > :38:17.It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:18. > :38:20.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:21. > :38:26.we'll be talking about Jeremy Corbyn's appearance
:38:27. > :38:39.at a rally for CND, and a big week in the race to the White House.
:38:40. > :38:42.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:38:43. > :38:44.Must do better - a year after it was announced,
:38:45. > :38:48.MPs say the Wales Bill should be put on hold so it can be improved.
:38:49. > :38:50.And why thousands of women like Elizabeth are having to wait
:38:51. > :38:56.It was hailed as the way to decide what's devolved once and for all,
:38:57. > :39:00.but now there are more questions than answers over the Wales Bill.
:39:01. > :39:03.It claims to devolve more powers to Cardiff Bay but today
:39:04. > :39:07.the Welsh Affairs Select Committee of MPs says it should be put on hold
:39:08. > :39:10.because there are too many issues which need to be sorted out.
:39:11. > :39:12.Here's what its chair, the Conservative MP David Davies,
:39:13. > :39:18.Here it was difficult to get a collective consensus
:39:19. > :39:20.because there are some members of the committee who,
:39:21. > :39:24.at one end, would like powers taken away from the Assembly,
:39:25. > :39:27.there are others who would like an independent Wales,
:39:28. > :39:32.so what I would say as somebody who sits as chair is that there
:39:33. > :39:38.are concerns over how the decisions had been arrived at on all sides
:39:39. > :39:42.and we thought that perhaps some of the decisions about which powers
:39:43. > :39:46.should go towards the Assembly could be better explained.
:39:47. > :39:50.Well, joining me now to explain what's going on is Manon George
:39:51. > :39:58.who's an expert in the law governing Welsh devolution.
:39:59. > :40:05.Thank you for coming in. We have heard what the committee said but as
:40:06. > :40:10.you see it, what are the main problems? It is good to see that the
:40:11. > :40:14.Welsh office committee have conducted this pre-legislative crew
:40:15. > :40:18.tinny because it is not happy with all the Parliament bills so people
:40:19. > :40:22.have had their chance to have their say about the Bill and the Secretary
:40:23. > :40:27.of State has consulted widely. They have raised the same concerns as we
:40:28. > :40:31.did at the Wales governance Centre, so the main issue would be the list
:40:32. > :40:36.of reserved powers. The list of things that the Assembly cannot
:40:37. > :40:39.legislate on. It is generally considered to be the best way of
:40:40. > :40:42.devolving power so devolving everything except for particular
:40:43. > :40:48.matters which are reserved to Westminster. But whether it is a
:40:49. > :40:55.better model or not depends on the list of reservations and the width
:40:56. > :41:01.and depth of those reservations and they argue there are too many
:41:02. > :41:04.reservations. General reservations and specific reservations. So it is
:41:05. > :41:10.a very complex list of things they cannot legislate on. So Whitehall
:41:11. > :41:15.departments have just decided, we are not going to give away those
:41:16. > :41:20.powers. If that is the case, how has that been allowed to happen? It
:41:21. > :41:23.seems to be a process of a trawl through Whitehall departments of
:41:24. > :41:27.what they are willing to devolve and what they want to keep and one of
:41:28. > :41:33.the reasons for keeping so many powers back is that desire to
:41:34. > :41:39.maintain a unified legal system for England and. But legislating in
:41:40. > :41:43.Wales, those laws become part of the laws of England and were. There is
:41:44. > :41:47.quite a complex system and legislating can have a knock-on
:41:48. > :41:52.effect on how the law operates in England. But shouldn't the Wales
:41:53. > :41:58.Office and Stephen Crabb, the Secretary of State for where is, be
:41:59. > :42:03.more hands-on? Just say, you justify why you should be allowed to keep
:42:04. > :42:07.that. Is that a way around this? There needs to be justification for
:42:08. > :42:13.every reservation. Reservations should be based on principles, so
:42:14. > :42:17.why do these reservations need to be reservations, why are we keeping
:42:18. > :42:22.these things back? The important thing is to have a clear and
:42:23. > :42:26.sustainable devolution settlement. This is the fourth proposal now for
:42:27. > :42:30.devolution in Wales so I am sure people are fed up of talking about
:42:31. > :42:36.the constitution and it is a time to have a settled settlement for Wales.
:42:37. > :42:43.Therefore, the Wales Bill, this current set of... Should it be
:42:44. > :42:49.scrapped and started all over again or can it be salvaged? It is time to
:42:50. > :42:52.take Wales seriously and we need to think about the devolution
:42:53. > :42:57.settlement that will last. I think there are things that can be done
:42:58. > :43:01.with the Bill. It does not have to be scrapped but it is time to take a
:43:02. > :43:07.step back to revise the Bill and think about those big questions. The
:43:08. > :43:11.list of reservations, also the necessity test. There is a test as
:43:12. > :43:17.to whether it is necessary to legislate on something. The criminal
:43:18. > :43:20.law and the private law are also reserved, which cause huge
:43:21. > :43:26.difficulties for the Assembly in legislating because to make the law
:43:27. > :43:32.in forcible, you need to be able to provide sanctions. Also, the
:43:33. > :43:35.question of a legal system for Wales. That question is not
:43:36. > :43:41.addressed in the Bill so whether Wales should have its own legal
:43:42. > :43:45.system. Do you think that legal system, the courts and those things,
:43:46. > :43:52.should be run from Wales rather than on an England and will basis? Is
:43:53. > :43:56.that necessary to move forward? I think it needs to be identified that
:43:57. > :44:00.there is a body of Welsh law and laws made in Wales for the people of
:44:01. > :44:06.Wales should only extend to Wales so that only Welsh judges could be able
:44:07. > :44:11.to decide on cases involving Welsh law. The purpose of devolution was
:44:12. > :44:14.to bring government closer to the people so decision-making should
:44:15. > :44:18.also be brought closer to the people. Is there a problem with
:44:19. > :44:22.having a distinct Welsh legal system, it has been tangled up with
:44:23. > :44:26.England for so long, and picking that might be difficult. I think it
:44:27. > :44:33.would be more straightforward than we think because if we are making
:44:34. > :44:37.laws that apply only to Wales since before the days of devolution, acts
:44:38. > :44:41.of the UK Parliament which apply only to Wales, and judges are very
:44:42. > :44:46.used to applying different bodies of law. We have two apply EU law, human
:44:47. > :44:51.rights laws, so I don't think it would be as difficult as people
:44:52. > :44:56.think, and we would not necessarily have to have a completely separate
:44:57. > :45:00.system. We would not have to have a separate court system, separate
:45:01. > :45:08.prisons, we don't even have two devolve the administration of
:45:09. > :45:11.justice. We could have courts in Wales only applying Welsh law. But
:45:12. > :45:13.that is not included in this Bill so that would have to be another
:45:14. > :45:16.commission on devolution. The Welsh government have proposed an
:45:17. > :45:21.amendment to the draft Wales Bill which would provide for a distinct
:45:22. > :45:25.jurisdiction so they suggest it is just a matter of amending the Bill.
:45:26. > :45:31.That is what I would like to see in the next draft of the Wales Bill.
:45:32. > :45:33.The next draft of the next draft! Thank you very much.
:45:34. > :45:36.It must be a pretty good time to be a Ukip supporter.
:45:37. > :45:39.The party's main aim - a referendum on our membership
:45:40. > :45:42.of the EU - is around the corner, and if you look at the opinion
:45:43. > :45:44.polls, they're also set to get their first Members
:45:45. > :45:49.So why do we hear so many stories of back stabbing and
:45:50. > :45:54.Well, this weekend, Ukip have been spending some time at the seaside
:45:55. > :45:55.at their Spring Conference in Llandudno.
:45:56. > :45:58.Ukip's Welsh Leader, Nathan Gill, has been speaking to our reporter
:45:59. > :46:04.Nathan Gill, welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
:46:05. > :46:07.Let's start with a question about Ukip Wales' identity.
:46:08. > :46:10.Many voters in Wales who are perhaps sceptical about devolution have seen
:46:11. > :46:12.Ukip as the party that most mirrors their views.
:46:13. > :46:16.You took to the stage this weekend and told members to vote to leave
:46:17. > :46:18.the EU to give the Assembly more power.
:46:19. > :46:21.Does Ukip Wales have an identity crisis?
:46:22. > :46:25.There is no difference in the fact that we are sceptical
:46:26. > :46:28.about devolution but we want it to work.
:46:29. > :46:34.We have seen for ourselves how 15, 16 years of Labour-run devolution
:46:35. > :46:37.has not delivered for the people of Wales so no wonder the people
:46:38. > :46:40.of Wales are not very happy with devolution.
:46:41. > :46:43.Not very happy with the institutions, with
:46:44. > :46:47.the Cardiff-centric politicians, and we see and we feel
:46:48. > :46:52.that we have a place in widening that and allowing people to feel
:46:53. > :46:57.more a part of devolution by devolving things closer to them,
:46:58. > :47:00.which is obviously at the council level.
:47:01. > :47:03.But on one hand you talk about more power for the Assembly,
:47:04. > :47:06.at the same time you have policies announced this weekend saying no
:47:07. > :47:10.more AMs and no tax powers without a referendum.
:47:11. > :47:14.Absolutely, but as we have said, we've got the fishing waters,
:47:15. > :47:19.200 miles of fishing around Wales, which right now,
:47:20. > :47:23.through the Common Fisheries programme, anybody from all over
:47:24. > :47:29.Europe can come and fish and take our natural resources.
:47:30. > :47:35.Absolutely the people of Wales can have those resources taken back
:47:36. > :47:39.when we leave the EU because that is the reality of it.
:47:40. > :47:42.Another thing that has characterised the conference this weekend
:47:43. > :47:46.is the split within the leave camp between grassroots out,
:47:47. > :47:50.Ukip-backed and Nigel Farage-backed, and Vote Leave, your MP
:47:51. > :47:53.Douglas Carswell a part of that campaign.
:47:54. > :47:55.They even had a fringe event at the same time
:47:56. > :48:01.What are you going to do to make sure there is a united leave
:48:02. > :48:06.What we need to wait for is the designation,
:48:07. > :48:08.the official designation, because as soon as that happens,
:48:09. > :48:12.everybody who wants to leave, all of the Brexiteers,
:48:13. > :48:16.we will all galvanise behind that and we will all push forward.
:48:17. > :48:19.It is obvious that is what we are going to do.
:48:20. > :48:21.Have you had discussions with Andrew RT Davies about a united message
:48:22. > :48:27.No, I have had no discussions with him at all.
:48:28. > :48:29.Is that something you would look to do?
:48:30. > :48:34.Everybody who wants to leave the EU, we should join forces and we should
:48:35. > :48:39.combine our skill set and the activists we have got
:48:40. > :48:43.to make sure we get the vote out and that we sell the positive
:48:44. > :48:51.Let's turn to the months of internal rowing in Ukip Wales ahead
:48:52. > :48:55.of the Assembly election candidate selections.
:48:56. > :48:59.John Atkinson, a close colleague of yours, you have worked with him
:49:00. > :49:03.for some years on election campaigns for Ukip Wales.
:49:04. > :49:06.He resigned on Thursday saying that, frankly, all the infighting had
:49:07. > :49:10.become a distraction from what he sees as the prime focus
:49:11. > :49:21.Nobody gets into politics to infight, nobody gets
:49:22. > :49:23.into politics in order to fight your own people.
:49:24. > :49:28.What we want and what we need is a cohesive direction with regards
:49:29. > :49:31.to the two big campaigns that we need to fight.
:49:32. > :49:36.The Welsh Assembly and the biggest one of our lives, leaving the EU.
:49:37. > :49:41.I completely agree with John, there is a distraction.
:49:42. > :49:44.Many people joined Ukip not so we could get Assembly Members
:49:45. > :49:48.elected but because they knew the biggest battle of our political
:49:49. > :49:57.Part of that destraction has been a petition calling for you to step
:49:58. > :50:02.There has been a drip, drip of negative stories.
:50:03. > :50:05.How personally draining has that been?
:50:06. > :50:07.Have you considered walking away like John has?
:50:08. > :50:14.Look, I got into politics, the main reason being I wanted us
:50:15. > :50:18.to leave the EU and I could see that politics in Britain was broken
:50:19. > :50:21.and certainly politics in Wales is broken.
:50:22. > :50:24.The Welsh Assembly has not and is continuing to not deliver
:50:25. > :50:29.for us so I believe there is a very important job for us to do,
:50:30. > :50:37.I really believe that we can do that so I don't want to walk away
:50:38. > :50:41.from that, I want to make sure that we get that job done.
:50:42. > :50:44.So if you get elected to Cardiff Bay and then the group has
:50:45. > :50:47.a leadership election, you would throw yourself into that?
:50:48. > :50:54.Who knows how you will feel tomorrow?
:50:55. > :50:58.What should Ukip's role be in the Assembly?
:50:59. > :51:00.You have talked about opposition, providing scrutiny of
:51:01. > :51:05.Nigel Farage on BBC Radio Wales this weekend said you would be open
:51:06. > :51:08.to working with other parties, open to coalition deals.
:51:09. > :51:15.Well, if there was a chance for us to work in a grand coalition to get
:51:16. > :51:20.rid of the failing Labour administration and to actually
:51:21. > :51:24.improve the lot of the people of Wales, we would have to do that
:51:25. > :51:28.because the reason why we got into politics, each of us,
:51:29. > :51:31.is to improve the lot of our fellow man here in Wales.
:51:32. > :51:35.That is why Nigel talks about that, but whether that would be
:51:36. > :51:43.Plaid Cymru would need to work with us and I am not sure
:51:44. > :51:48.When we say that we need to be a strong opposition,
:51:49. > :51:52.it is because we are being realistic and honest about this with people.
:51:53. > :51:58.We know that we are not going to be running Cardiff Bay by ourselves.
:51:59. > :52:02.We know that, so what we are saying is, we will be that strong
:52:03. > :52:06.opposition that is needed for any government to behave properly.
:52:07. > :52:16.Next Sunday is Mothering Sunday, and while many women will be looking
:52:17. > :52:19.forward to being spoiled by their families, others are facing
:52:20. > :52:25.Thousands of women across Wales say they were not told they'd have
:52:26. > :52:28.to wait longer to get their pensions as part of plans to equalise
:52:29. > :52:36.It's a part of the world that we will never see again.
:52:37. > :52:39.I don't suppose we will ever go back to Australia.
:52:40. > :52:43.Spending more quality time with her husband Brian is exactly
:52:44. > :52:47.how Elisabeth Conway expected to spend her 60s.
:52:48. > :52:50.Elizabeth, from Tonteg near Pontypridd, retired as a nurse
:52:51. > :52:55.when she was 58, expecting to start receiving a state pension
:52:56. > :52:59.when she turns 63 later this year, but soon after leaving work
:53:00. > :53:03.she was forced to go back after finding out she would not be
:53:04. > :53:06.getting her state pension for another three years.
:53:07. > :53:10.You think you are going to have your pension at a set age,
:53:11. > :53:14.which would add again if you have got a pension,
:53:15. > :53:18.add to that, and it would give you a reasonably good life.
:53:19. > :53:28.But now I have to work to get money to do the things we want to do.
:53:29. > :53:33.The confusion has come from efforts to bring the state pension age
:53:34. > :53:39.For years, as men got their state pension at 65, women
:53:40. > :53:46.Legislation passed 20 years ago set out a timetable to equalise those
:53:47. > :53:53.ages at 65 by 2020, but then in 2011, the UK Coalition Government
:53:54. > :53:56.brought that deadline forward to 2018.
:53:57. > :54:02.The state pension age will increase further to 66 for both men and women
:54:03. > :54:09.For Elizabeth and many thousands like her, the main issue has been
:54:10. > :54:15.My daughter expects to work until she is 66, even 70.
:54:16. > :54:32.More than 2.5 million women, an entire generation, are affected.
:54:33. > :54:35.Thousands have signed a petition and expressed anger
:54:36. > :54:40.on social media pages set up by the Women Against State Pension
:54:41. > :54:46.It has been pointed out many women are already disadvantaged
:54:47. > :54:51.in retirement, having been paid less in the workplace and often having
:54:52. > :54:56.The government thought this was a group of women that
:54:57. > :54:59.could be pushed to one side so that they could save a few pound
:55:00. > :55:05.What has happened in reality is, they have been proved to be
:55:06. > :55:10.The simple answer would be for the government to look at this
:55:11. > :55:14.and make some kind of offer to these ladies to fill the gap between now
:55:15. > :55:18.and the time when they are entitled to their state pension.
:55:19. > :55:22.And that is exactly what campaigners are calling for but the Department
:55:23. > :55:26.for Work and Pensions insists it has no intention of revisiting the state
:55:27. > :55:32.Prolonging the inequality between men and women would cost
:55:33. > :55:39.It also insists letters were sent to all the affected women advising
:55:40. > :55:45.The DWP's Cardiff office shares a site with the Equality
:55:46. > :55:49.and Human Rights Commission, which supports the principle
:55:50. > :55:52.of equal state pension ages for men and women.
:55:53. > :55:56.However, the commission is disappointed with the way
:55:57. > :56:01.What has been a serious problem is the failure to communicate
:56:02. > :56:04.properly with women to let them know the situation.
:56:05. > :56:07.Unaware of the fact that women who have planned their retirement
:56:08. > :56:10.for a long time, suddenly have discovered that they are not
:56:11. > :56:13.going to get their pensions as quickly as they thought and have
:56:14. > :56:16.had to carry on working longer so this is a failure
:56:17. > :56:20.Although we support the change, it should have been
:56:21. > :56:25.The commission is now calling for more action to address
:56:26. > :56:28.inequalities it claims still exist between men and women
:56:29. > :56:32.in the workplace, including salaries and access to senior positions.
:56:33. > :56:36.Elizabeth is still trying to find the time to do the things she enjoys
:56:37. > :56:39.like carving gifts for her grandchildren.
:56:40. > :56:42.As the country tries to cope with an ageing population,
:56:43. > :56:46.future generations will have to work longer still before they can
:56:47. > :56:57.Ian Thomas is Chief Executive of Age Cymru.
:56:58. > :57:08.Thank you for coming in. You talk to older people throughout Wales every
:57:09. > :57:13.day. What is the scale of the problem? This is a big problem. I
:57:14. > :57:20.think that story very well illustrates the dilemma these women
:57:21. > :57:25.face at the moment. Many things said in that piece are important,
:57:26. > :57:28.particularly the lack of communication and the need for these
:57:29. > :57:32.better transitional arrangements. The state pension is by far the
:57:33. > :57:39.biggest proportion of benefit that comes to people. It is a right
:57:40. > :57:44.anyway. It is so important for people in later life. When you talk
:57:45. > :57:47.about transitional arrangements, the Department of pensions said they are
:57:48. > :57:52.not going to consider that but the point would be, this has been 20
:57:53. > :57:58.years in the making. It is not as if it has come out of the blue. That is
:57:59. > :58:02.not strictly true because they accelerated the convergence of
:58:03. > :58:09.pension ages very quickly at a much later stage. Many people feel very
:58:10. > :58:12.aggrieved, older people we talk to feel very aggrieved that the
:58:13. > :58:17.communication was poor around that and that many people have been left
:58:18. > :58:22.in the lurch. Elizabeth's story is quite telling. So there are
:58:23. > :58:28.thousands of women in Wales who were not aware of the changes? We think
:58:29. > :58:36.even tens of thousands. We operate a helpline and we took 35,000 calls
:58:37. > :58:40.between 2014-15. 25,000 's of those calls were concerning welfare and
:58:41. > :58:44.health. We have done a lot of work with older people in order to get
:58:45. > :58:50.their pension rights up there. We talked to a lady recently who
:58:51. > :58:54.believes she is going to lose up to ?10,000 in pension benefits. That is
:58:55. > :58:57.very significant for an older person. When you refer to the
:58:58. > :59:05.transitional arrangements, what could be done? For those women in
:59:06. > :59:10.particular who fall in that two-year period between 1951 and 1953, they
:59:11. > :59:16.should be more money in the system to support them. We must not forget
:59:17. > :59:20.as well that men and women between those two dates will have different
:59:21. > :59:25.pension arrangements. One will be from the old system and one from the
:59:26. > :59:28.new system. We are not trying to make value judgments about which is
:59:29. > :59:34.the best system but they should be money to help women like Elizabeth.
:59:35. > :59:40.Women born after the 6th of April 1951 will get this new settlement.
:59:41. > :59:44.Let's assume that nothing you want to see happens, it goes along as
:59:45. > :59:52.planned by the UK Government, what should those be doing if this is the
:59:53. > :59:56.first day are hearing of it? I think anybody coming close to pension age
:59:57. > :59:59.should get in touch with the Department for Work and Pensions.
:00:00. > :00:03.They can ask for it pension statement so they can see to what
:00:04. > :00:09.they are entitled. They can also ring our helpline. And we have got
:00:10. > :00:14.skilled advisors to help people on that. It is really about no win, and
:00:15. > :00:19.older people just need to know where they are going to sit. The current
:00:20. > :00:24.arrangements, where there is a lot less money in the system, means a
:00:25. > :00:29.lot of older people come to us and ask us for advice around pension
:00:30. > :00:33.credits. In time, if the new system works, that will be alleviated, that
:00:34. > :00:37.problem, which will mean more money in the economy for Wales and for
:00:38. > :00:44.older people generally. I am assuming what you agree with what
:00:45. > :00:52.Kate Bennett said about a lack of communication. Did the UK Government
:00:53. > :00:54.get in touch with you? No. Subsequently, someone from the
:00:55. > :00:57.Department for Work and Pensions contacted my office last week to
:00:58. > :01:03.help distribute leaflets and information but it is a bit like
:01:04. > :01:07.shutting the gate after the war -- horse has bolted because as we saw
:01:08. > :01:12.this afternoon, many older people across Wales have ended up in some
:01:13. > :01:14.dismay about where they sit financially. Thank you very much for
:01:15. > :01:17.coming in. Don't forget to follow
:01:18. > :01:20.all the latest on twitter Diolch am wylio, thanks
:01:21. > :01:26.for watching. and Andrew Rossendale, thank you as
:01:27. > :01:38.well. Back to Andrew. We were talking earlier about
:01:39. > :01:41.divisions in the Conservative Party over Europe, but of course they're
:01:42. > :01:44.not the only party that's split over Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn addressed
:01:45. > :01:49.thousands at a rally for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament
:01:50. > :01:52.in London, where he condemned Trident - a nuclear weapon
:01:53. > :02:08.that his party still They reckon it is the biggest
:02:09. > :02:13.anti-nuclear weapons March for a generation. Which means it is like
:02:14. > :02:19.the Oscars. For people with causes. The civil service union, it is one
:02:20. > :02:24.of the few unions against Trident instead of four Trident. We are
:02:25. > :02:30.giving free food for the people. We are from Hare Krishna. Don't make
:02:31. > :02:34.weapons, make food. We are here to draw attention to the links between
:02:35. > :02:38.nuclear power and nuclear weapons. This country should not have gone in
:02:39. > :02:42.for either of them but now we have the chance to get out of both of
:02:43. > :02:52.them. The only good bomb is a Yager bomb. You might disagree this
:02:53. > :02:58.morning. We have had a better time than anyone who has had to deal with
:02:59. > :03:03.Trident. Also there, Caroline Lucas and Nicola Sturgeon. This lady had
:03:04. > :03:08.an amazing knitted Jeremy Corbyn but the big draw was the man himself,
:03:09. > :03:12.who has devoted his adult life to the staff. Many of us have marched
:03:13. > :03:18.for many years and met for many years with the view that we bring
:03:19. > :03:21.about a peaceful world by arguing peacefully for it, putting forward
:03:22. > :03:27.the logical alternatives and showing two people the horror of war and the
:03:28. > :03:32.total horror of nuclear weapons, should they ever be used by anybody.
:03:33. > :03:38.A lot of Jeremy Corbyn's party agree with him. A survey of Labour members
:03:39. > :03:43.published this week showed that more than two thirds of them want to
:03:44. > :03:47.scrap Trident. The issue is that quite a lot of Labour MPs and trade
:03:48. > :03:50.unions do not think that way. I think he would have something better
:03:51. > :03:55.to do than being there along with the leaders of the Green Party, the
:03:56. > :03:59.SNP and Plaid Cymru. There was a conference just a couple of days ago
:04:00. > :04:05.with the GMB union who represent the workers in the shipyards, and they
:04:06. > :04:08.are proud of their skills and worried about their future. They
:04:09. > :04:14.want that sorted out quickly. That is a strong message to David Cameron
:04:15. > :04:18.and to Jeremy Corbyn. This week, the Labour branch of the campaign for
:04:19. > :04:22.nuclear disarmament was criticised after publishing a fact file that
:04:23. > :04:29.appears to compare Trident with World War II gas chambers. I think
:04:30. > :04:32.alluding to the gas chambers in this context is utterly grotesque. The
:04:33. > :04:38.truth is that the gas chambers were never a form of deterrent, they were
:04:39. > :04:42.never a method of war. They were not legitimate. In the 40s or at any
:04:43. > :04:47.time. They were about genocide, about wiping out a race of people.
:04:48. > :04:52.And to compare those things with the discussion that we are having here
:04:53. > :04:58.about a nuclear deterrent, I think it is utterly grotesque. The task of
:04:59. > :05:01.clearing it all up falls to the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily
:05:02. > :05:08.Thornbury, reviewing party policy. Although that might not be done
:05:09. > :05:15.before the Commons as to vote on new in Trident submarines later this
:05:16. > :05:19.year. And reporting for the -- from the CND demo. Yesterday was supposed
:05:20. > :05:23.to be Labour's day of campaigning for the European Union. But Mr
:05:24. > :05:29.Corbyn went to this big rally and that is what has been in the news.
:05:30. > :05:32.Discuss. Well, in his heart of hearts, it is not so much that
:05:33. > :05:36.Jeremy Corbyn does not want Britain to be in the European Union, he just
:05:37. > :05:40.does not want the European Union to exist. He thinks it is part of the
:05:41. > :05:45.global liberal capitalist conspiracy, and you heard him in the
:05:46. > :05:48.TV debates of the leadership contest, he does not really like the
:05:49. > :05:52.ewe but he is boxed into a corner and he has to pretend that he does.
:05:53. > :06:01.I was told at one stage she toyed with coming out against Britain's
:06:02. > :06:05.membership. Another edition -- in the leadership campaign he made some
:06:06. > :06:10.tortured remarks. I remember asking him to clarify his thinking and then
:06:11. > :06:15.there was a slightly awkward statement in which he said he would
:06:16. > :06:17.campaign for reform from within. And then later in the TV debates he was
:06:18. > :06:22.very harsh against the European Union. He does not really like it
:06:23. > :06:26.but he is boxed into a corner because for Jeremy Corbyn, there are
:06:27. > :06:30.more important battles and the more important battle is Trident. He has
:06:31. > :06:37.been a member of the CND since 1966 and that is what he thinks. He has
:06:38. > :06:41.been entirely consistent on this. He's strike the Parliamentary Labour
:06:42. > :06:47.Party. He does not go to the meetings. And he wants to get the
:06:48. > :06:49.membership, this new membership in the country behind him, maybe even
:06:50. > :06:54.the party conference behind him, and that is how he would get his way.
:06:55. > :06:57.The macro that is absolutely right. If you talk to moderate figures in
:06:58. > :07:02.the Labour Party, privately they will say that this is not actually
:07:03. > :07:05.about Trident although there is no doubting Jeremy Corbyn's sincere
:07:06. > :07:09.beliefs. A lot of this is about control of the Labour Party. I think
:07:10. > :07:13.the problem for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party as a whole is this
:07:14. > :07:17.reinforces the impression of a party that is talking to itself. Of
:07:18. > :07:22.course, all parties in opposition need to do that to some extent, but
:07:23. > :07:25.with a view to renewing and coming out stronger. And that is not going
:07:26. > :07:31.to be the outcome of this very divisive debate. What are your
:07:32. > :07:35.thoughts on this? It is a typically caught the night thing to do,
:07:36. > :07:37.because it is more focused on transforming the Labour Party than
:07:38. > :07:41.on policy outcome. He cannot seriously believe that this country
:07:42. > :07:45.is not going to renew Trident. He cannot seriously believe that the
:07:46. > :07:49.other nuclear powers would do something similar. What matters most
:07:50. > :07:53.to those around him is redefining what the Labour Party is
:07:54. > :07:59.permanently. It is a catastrophe for the party because it is not as if
:08:00. > :08:04.the political problem only kicks in if he successfully changes party
:08:05. > :08:07.policy. Just having the debate on Trident is problematic in and of
:08:08. > :08:11.itself. It was barmy in the 80s and to do it now when the number of
:08:12. > :08:14.nuclear powers is higher and the number of people who are rational is
:08:15. > :08:19.lower, it will strike voters as curious. Let's hope he goes to the
:08:20. > :08:25.DLP tomorrow because it is always fun when he does. Speaking of that,
:08:26. > :08:29.the American presidential elections went along with through in the
:08:30. > :08:33.process yesterday. Yesterday was the Democratic primary in South Carolina
:08:34. > :08:37.and Mrs Clinton won against Bernie Sanders and this is what she said
:08:38. > :08:41.after her landslide victory. Despite what you hear, we do not need to
:08:42. > :08:54.make America a great again. America has never stopped being great.
:08:55. > :09:02.CHEERING. But we do need to make America whole
:09:03. > :09:08.again. Instead of building walls, we need to be tearing down the
:09:09. > :09:13.barriers. Hillary Clinton in South Carolina. They move on super
:09:14. > :09:17.Tuesday, this coming Tuesday. I would suggest that the significance
:09:18. > :09:25.of that is twofold. That is a woman who thinks she has won the
:09:26. > :09:28.nomination and she probably has. Secondly, she is turning her
:09:29. > :09:33.attention to Donald Trump because make America great again is his
:09:34. > :09:37.campaign slogan. She thinks she is up against Trump in the election.
:09:38. > :09:41.All the indications are that she has won of the Democratic nomination.
:09:42. > :09:45.Marco Rubio could win the Republican nomination but it would take quite a
:09:46. > :09:50.circuitous route, maybe going to the convention floor. Which it has not
:09:51. > :09:55.done in my lifetime. And you can imagine how poisonous that would be
:09:56. > :09:59.for the party. I think it will be Hillary Clinton versus someone,
:10:00. > :10:04.probably versus Donald Trump. And I think the thing I take away from it
:10:05. > :10:09.is that as farcical as Trump is, as much of a blowhard as he is, and as
:10:10. > :10:13.crazy as this memory campaign is, it shows that a country can succeed
:10:14. > :10:17.despite its politics. And America has been doing this for decades. In
:10:18. > :10:23.the Texas debate, Mr Trump did not do so well. He was attacked on both
:10:24. > :10:26.sides from Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, the junior senator for Texas.
:10:27. > :10:31.Although Trump must still be the favourite, he is not yet at the
:10:32. > :10:35.unstoppable shoo-in that Mrs Clinton has become. He is not unstoppable.
:10:36. > :10:39.Make no mistake, there are many within the party machine who would
:10:40. > :10:45.like to stop them. There could well be a very aggressive operation to
:10:46. > :10:49.stop them becoming the candidate. So far, it has not worked. There is an
:10:50. > :10:53.important point to make about Trump from a global point of view. We sit
:10:54. > :10:57.here and say, what a terrifying prospect, but remember, he will not
:10:58. > :11:01.be a democratically elected dictator if he ends up as president. Congress
:11:02. > :11:05.will have a lot of power to fetter him, even if he wants to build that
:11:06. > :11:09.wall he will have to get a vote through and that is very unlikely.
:11:10. > :11:12.He could still do a lot of damage as president, even with Congress
:11:13. > :11:18.against you. You are a powerful person. But Marco Rubio has finally
:11:19. > :11:22.got a good line of attack on him. If you had not got that $200 million
:11:23. > :11:26.from your father, you would be selling watches in Times Square. But
:11:27. > :11:31.it was only two weeks ago that he was duffed up by Chris Christie, who
:11:32. > :11:35.has now endorsed Donald Trump. And he does not like Marco Rubio.
:11:36. > :11:39.President Obama said the other day, I am absolutely convinced that the
:11:40. > :11:43.American people will not vote for Donald Trump as president. And you
:11:44. > :11:46.must assume he is right. We have learned two things about Hillary
:11:47. > :11:50.Clinton in 2008 and this time around, she will probably make an
:11:51. > :11:56.excellent president but she is a deeply flawed candidate. You assume
:11:57. > :12:00.that she should beat Trump as the nominee but we have seen some flaws
:12:01. > :12:05.in her as a candidate. And maybe he would manage to beat. This could be
:12:06. > :12:13.the last opportunity for the Republicans. There is no Democratic
:12:14. > :12:16.frontrunner since McGovern in 1972 with bigger negatives than Hillary
:12:17. > :12:20.Clinton. The White House is convinced that this would be a
:12:21. > :12:24.victory if it was Trump against Clinton. I wonder where grand and
:12:25. > :12:27.impressive reputation comes from because from an outsider's
:12:28. > :12:36.perspective, the bullet points on her CV were messing up Hillary care
:12:37. > :12:41.in 1993, which caused the Republican clean sweep in the Congress, and the
:12:42. > :12:47.second was blowing a 20 point lead over Barack Obama at the end of 2007
:12:48. > :12:49.in the primary campaign. She was an OK Secretary of State but nothing
:12:50. > :12:55.world is changing. To have the reputation she does as a very grand,
:12:56. > :13:01.conquering figure on the basis of that career seems overdone. We will
:13:02. > :13:09.leave it there. If Ted Cruz cannot win on super Tuesday, he is
:13:10. > :13:12.finished. If Trump is at all in the polls, Marco Rubio is finished. --
:13:13. > :13:14.if Trump is ahead in the polls. The Daily Politics is back
:13:15. > :13:18.on BBC2 at midday tomorrow, and we'll be back here
:13:19. > :13:20.next Sunday at 11am. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:21. > :13:26.it's the Sunday Politics.