:00:38. > :00:40.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.After a week of damaging questions over his financial affairs,
:00:43. > :00:44.David Cameron tries to get on the front foot
:00:45. > :00:48.by publishing details of his tax bills.
:00:49. > :00:55.but no evidence he's avoided or evaded any tax.
:00:56. > :00:57.Will it silence his critics or just spur them on?
:00:58. > :00:59.We've got the details and the analysis.
:01:00. > :01:01.The Prime Minister's bigger challenge
:01:02. > :01:04.is still winning the EU referendum, and one of his key arguments
:01:05. > :01:06.is that membership helps keep us safe.
:01:07. > :01:09.We'll be talking to Defence Minister Penny Mordaunt,
:01:10. > :01:15.And this should be Ukip's big moment, so why is the party
:01:16. > :01:18.fighting among itself and facing an uncertain future?
:01:19. > :01:22.We'll bring you the full account of what's going wrong inside Ukip.
:01:23. > :01:24.Later in the programme: Where next for the Welsh economy?
:01:25. > :01:27.As Tata waits to hear its fate, and doubts over the Circuit
:01:28. > :01:40.of Wales, what would the political parties do to help?
:01:41. > :01:43.All that and more coming up in the next hour and a quarter.
:01:44. > :01:46.And when it comes to embarrassing admissions, PR blunders and having
:01:47. > :01:51.we've decided to bring in the real experts.
:01:52. > :01:54.Yes, it's Sam Coates, Beth Rigby and Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:55. > :01:57.Luckily, their tax affairs are pretty simple,
:01:58. > :02:04.but that's mainly because we pay them so badly.
:02:05. > :02:07.Without a doubt, it's been a pretty miserable time
:02:08. > :02:11.He's been on the defensive since Monday, when his father
:02:12. > :02:13.was linked to the so-called Panama Papers, leaked documents
:02:14. > :02:15.which showed how the rich and powerful use
:02:16. > :02:18.It's led to thousands protesting outside Downing Street
:02:19. > :02:22.For the first time, his approval ratings
:02:23. > :02:26.Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged he'd handled the affair badly,
:02:27. > :02:30.and overnight Number 10 published the headlines of his personal income
:02:31. > :02:36.tax returns for the past six years, including the tax he's paid.
:02:37. > :02:38.So what, if anything, has he done wrong?
:02:39. > :02:40.Well, we'll attempt to answer that question this morning,
:02:41. > :02:50.but first here's a reminder of how the story unfolded.
:02:51. > :02:56.The Panama Papers contain links to 12 current or former heads of state
:02:57. > :03:00.and government. In the UK, attention has focused on David Cameron and an
:03:01. > :03:05.offshore investment fund which is late father, Ian Cameron, set up in
:03:06. > :03:08.the early 1980s. Blairmore was incorporated in one tax saving,
:03:09. > :03:16.Panama, but based in another, the Bahamas. He used a financial
:03:17. > :03:20.instrument to protect investors per' privacy, then legal, but since
:03:21. > :03:23.outlawed in the UK. At on Monday whether the Prime Minister had
:03:24. > :03:27.personally benefited from the company, Downing Street said it was
:03:28. > :03:32.a private matter. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron tried to draw a line under
:03:33. > :03:33.it all, saying I have no shares, no offshore trusts, no offshore funds,
:03:34. > :03:37.nothing like that. Later that day, Downing Street
:03:38. > :03:39.sent a clarification - to be clear, the Prime Minister,
:03:40. > :03:42.his wife and their children do not benefit from
:03:43. > :03:43.any offshore funds. On Wednesday, a fourth statement
:03:44. > :03:46.was issued by Downing Street - there are no offshore funds,
:03:47. > :03:48.trusts which the Prime Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children
:03:49. > :03:52.will benefit from in future. Under increasing pressure,
:03:53. > :03:55.David Cameron gave an interview to ITV on Thursday in which he
:03:56. > :03:59.revealed that he had sold his shares in Blairmore in 2010
:04:00. > :04:04.for just over ?30,000. The Prime Minister said the profits
:04:05. > :04:07.and dividends he and his wife Samantha made from the investment
:04:08. > :04:09.were subject to all UK taxes in normal ways,
:04:10. > :04:13.and legal opinion suggests Mr Cameron has done
:04:14. > :04:16.nothing illegal. But he has faced intense criticism
:04:17. > :04:20.over his handling of the story. says this has undermined the trust
:04:21. > :04:25.that we have in him. Mr Cameron has now published
:04:26. > :04:28.the headlines of his tax returns, They show that in addition
:04:29. > :04:32.to ?300,000 that he received after his father's death
:04:33. > :04:36.in September 2010, his mother gave him two gifts
:04:37. > :04:43.of ?100,000 each in 2011. Downing Street has
:04:44. > :04:52.vigorously denied suggestions that this was done
:04:53. > :04:55.to minimise tax paid on the estate. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
:04:56. > :04:57.and Energy Secretary Amber Rudd have both been talking about this
:04:58. > :05:00.on the Marr show this morning, we need to know what he has
:05:01. > :05:07.actually returned as a tax return. We need to know why he put this
:05:08. > :05:10.money overseas in the first place and whether he made anything out
:05:11. > :05:13.of it or not before 2010, These are questions
:05:14. > :05:17.that he must answer. is that the Prime Minister and
:05:18. > :05:23.his family have done nothing wrong. I mean, the independent tax expert
:05:24. > :05:26.at the start of this programme confirmed that,
:05:27. > :05:27.lots of independent tax experts We're joined now by our economics
:05:28. > :05:43.editor Kamal Ahmed, he's been You have been a busy man! For the
:05:44. > :05:48.first time ever we have seen a Prime Minister's tax returns, at least the
:05:49. > :05:51.headlines, what have we led? Well, it is interesting, isn't it? David
:05:52. > :05:57.Cameron has gone from suggesting a mere six days ago that this was a
:05:58. > :06:02.private matter to a sort of tax shock and awe, I will put it all out
:06:03. > :06:06.there, people can make decisions on the details. I have been scribbling
:06:07. > :06:11.down the details, and there is a lot there. It shows that he has earned
:06:12. > :06:15.over ?1 million since he has been Prime Minister, not just from his
:06:16. > :06:20.prime ministerial salary, but from other income, rental income. He has
:06:21. > :06:30.paid tax of about ?400,000, an effective rate of about 37%, which
:06:31. > :06:33.would be pretty normal. As we said at the top of the programme, he has
:06:34. > :06:36.revealed these two payments from his mother of ?100,000 each, which were
:06:37. > :06:41.gifted to him after his father died. And in the previous year he had
:06:42. > :06:44.300,000 from his father, as an inheritance. Downing Street said
:06:45. > :06:49.that his mother made the payments to the Prime Minister because his older
:06:50. > :06:53.brother had inherited the house, and she was trying to even up the sort
:06:54. > :06:57.of inheritance as it was shared out. As you look at that, the experts
:06:58. > :07:01.saying there was any kind of tax dodge involved in this, either from
:07:02. > :07:06.the estate or with the Prime Minister? I think the whole issue is
:07:07. > :07:09.what is avoidance and what is sensible tax planning. If you think
:07:10. > :07:14.that putting your savings into an Isa is tax avoidance, because it is
:07:15. > :07:18.tax free in terms of your investments, then you will probably
:07:19. > :07:22.think that this type of gifting is some form of tax avoidance. The only
:07:23. > :07:27.time it would become tax avoidance is it David Cameron's mother dies,
:07:28. > :07:32.this is a horrible way to have a conversation, but this is how the
:07:33. > :07:38.tax law works. If she dies before 2018, there is a seven year limit on
:07:39. > :07:42.gifts to your children. Her estate would pay the tax, and her children
:07:43. > :07:46.would have a share of a smaller pot of money. But the tax was put in
:07:47. > :07:51.place there two when sure that any gifts that are given, if they are
:07:52. > :07:56.given within seven years of the parents dying, still become liable
:07:57. > :08:03.for inheritance tax. So I think that the one big point is that David
:08:04. > :08:06.Cameron, as do nearly everybody, particularly if they are wealthy,
:08:07. > :08:10.has planned his tax affairs so that he pays no more tax than is
:08:11. > :08:17.necessary. Now, people might think that is morally wrong, but... He
:08:18. > :08:21.once said it was morally wrong, did he not? He was talking about
:08:22. > :08:26.aggressive tax avoidance. This is currently! This is very simple, very
:08:27. > :08:30.vanilla, things that would be available to anybody. I think what
:08:31. > :08:33.he was trying to say, all the difference that Downing Street would
:08:34. > :08:40.argue, was that it is different from the pop stars and the people in
:08:41. > :08:45.entertainment who used complicated funding mechanisms to avoid tax. And
:08:46. > :08:49.this, which is normal tax planning, in terms of what your tax adviser,
:08:50. > :08:55.if you are wealthy, would say to you. It is a watershed in British
:08:56. > :08:59.politics, two CDs tax returns, but are we not in danger of making too
:09:00. > :09:09.much out of them? -- to see these tax returns. I do not suggest the
:09:10. > :09:13.prime and has -- the minister has done anything wrong, but if you
:09:14. > :09:16.have, it would not be in your tax return. There is no suggestion that
:09:17. > :09:20.he has done anything wrong, but the watershed issue is around the
:09:21. > :09:25.long-held belief in law that your tax affairs are private. And what
:09:26. > :09:28.this has done is opened up, I would suggest, every Cabinet minister,
:09:29. > :09:32.every member of the government to the notion that they will have to
:09:33. > :09:36.publish not just this year's tax returns but six years of tax
:09:37. > :09:40.returns. And if they do not, the question will be, why are you not
:09:41. > :09:45.doing that? The Cabinet will be over the moon about that(!) Let's cut to
:09:46. > :09:49.the chase, it is almost did the Chancellor will have to publish his
:09:50. > :09:54.tax returns. I think so. There was an attempt to shut down the story
:09:55. > :10:04.once and for all by saying, here are his tax returns, the Prime Minister
:10:05. > :10:07.has done nothing wrong, but they have let the genie out of the
:10:08. > :10:09.bottle. The Chancellor will now be under pressure, other Cabinet
:10:10. > :10:12.ministers will be under pressure. Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting that
:10:13. > :10:16.people in public life more broadly should have to publish their tax
:10:17. > :10:19.returns. So it is a big moment in terms of transparency and demand is
:10:20. > :10:24.from the public for transparency, but if you think about it, this
:10:25. > :10:29.began with the MPs expenses, I would argue, and ever since then the
:10:30. > :10:34.public trust in politicians and in the way they behave has been on the
:10:35. > :10:38.slide, and this is a continuation of that, a continuation of the demand
:10:39. > :10:45.for transparency. John McDonnell has told the BBC, we will ensure that
:10:46. > :10:50.any donor linked to the Labour Party will not be using devices to evade
:10:51. > :10:56.tax. Good luck on that(!) HMRC have trouble figuring that out. This has
:10:57. > :10:59.a wider political significance, we are running up to the European
:11:00. > :11:04.referendum, the Prime Minister is mainly seen as the main asset in the
:11:05. > :11:08.Remain campaign, it is not great news when he is being dragged
:11:09. > :11:13.through the news like this. Luff, this is as bad a week of headlines I
:11:14. > :11:21.can remember since the Prime Minister entered office. -- no. It
:11:22. > :11:24.has not resulted in anyone being able to level an accusation that the
:11:25. > :11:28.Prime Minister that would stand up in a court of law. There is no
:11:29. > :11:32.suggestion that anyone is credibly making that he aggressively avoided
:11:33. > :11:36.tax. The question is, if that is the case, how has it ended up getting
:11:37. > :11:41.quite so bad for David Cameron? And I think at the heart of it has been
:11:42. > :11:45.an inability of Downing Street really to explain properly to people
:11:46. > :11:53.what is going on here, and I think that they are still, even morning,
:11:54. > :11:55.struggled to explain why, if he was doing nothing wrong, his father
:11:56. > :11:58.needed to set up a company in the Bahamas that used this anonymous
:11:59. > :12:03.form of company liability. That was the weakest part of the Prime
:12:04. > :12:07.Minister's statement in the week, that this investment vehicle,
:12:08. > :12:12.Blairmore, had not been set up to mitigate or avoid tax. I mean, if
:12:13. > :12:19.you register in Panama and operate out of the Bahamas, I mean, what
:12:20. > :12:23.else are you doing?! That is paid of the absurd, and we know that Ian
:12:24. > :12:26.Cameron made a living out of offering this sort of advice to very
:12:27. > :12:31.wealthy clients, and there was nothing wrong with that. When he set
:12:32. > :12:34.up his business, the political climate was absolutely different to
:12:35. > :12:38.what it is today. There was nothing wrong with what he was doing then.
:12:39. > :12:44.It was simply absurd of David Cameron to suggest that it was not
:12:45. > :12:48.set up for those reasons. I disagree about the weakest point, I think
:12:49. > :12:52.that was the private matter, you know, when David Cameron's
:12:53. > :12:57.spokeswoman suggested that this was a private matter, it all went
:12:58. > :13:01.downhill from there. I think today the headlines about inheritance tax
:13:02. > :13:06.and whether this is some kind of dodgy avoidance or evasion is
:13:07. > :13:10.something of a red herring. He has not, as Kamal said, done anything
:13:11. > :13:14.wrong, it is very standard practice, and there is a world of difference
:13:15. > :13:20.between evasion and avoidance. There is nothing fishy about this in
:13:21. > :13:22.particular. Kamal, you have been following this, the political
:13:23. > :13:27.ramifications still huge in that even if he loses the referendum, he
:13:28. > :13:32.is going, this will encourage, but even if he wins, the Tory party may
:13:33. > :13:36.see him, although we has done nothing wrong, as part of the
:13:37. > :13:39.walking wounded. On this issue, which has been interesting, the
:13:40. > :13:44.Conservative Party has lined up behind him. He has not been
:13:45. > :13:48.attacked, as he has over other issues, like George Osborne's Budget
:13:49. > :13:51.or Tata Steel, so this has been quite a unifying moment for the
:13:52. > :13:56.Conservative Party, interestingly. What it does that is dangerous is it
:13:57. > :13:59.makes the referendum much more of a vote about David Cameron, which is
:14:00. > :14:02.the last thing that people in Number Ten want it to be. Another busy
:14:03. > :14:05.weekend of you! Now is the UK safer in or out
:14:06. > :14:08.of the European Union? It's one of the central questions
:14:09. > :14:10.in the referendum debate Does membership help protect
:14:11. > :14:14.us against terrorist attacks, And are the big foreign policy
:14:15. > :14:17.challenges, like those posed by Russia or Iran,
:14:18. > :14:20.better tackled through the EU or with our other
:14:21. > :14:23.international partners alone? giving his view
:14:24. > :14:27.earlier in the week. We draw our strength
:14:28. > :14:29.as a country from the fact we are the fifth-biggest economy
:14:30. > :14:32.in the world, we have a special relationship with the United States,
:14:33. > :14:35.we are members of Nato, the G7, but we also get
:14:36. > :14:42.some strength from being in the European Union,
:14:43. > :14:46.the organisation for our continent that actually helps us,
:14:47. > :14:49.whether it is confronting Iran and making sure we don't have
:14:50. > :14:51.Iranian nuclear weapons, whether it is standing up
:14:52. > :14:54.to Vladimir Putin and his aggression in Ukraine, we are stronger
:14:55. > :15:00.by being part of this organisation. I'm joined now by a member
:15:01. > :15:03.of the Cameron government, the Armed Forces Minister
:15:04. > :15:04.Penny Mordaunt. She's campaigning for Britain
:15:05. > :15:18.to vote to leave the EU. The Prime Minister, the Defence
:15:19. > :15:19.Secretary, 12 former British defence chiefs all say our security is
:15:20. > :15:32.enhanced by remaining in. Those job titles, baked not
:15:33. > :15:35.arguments. I am very clear, having worn a uniform, three years on the
:15:36. > :15:40.House of Commons defence committee, being an aid worker in the former
:15:41. > :15:45.Eastern Bloc, we would be safer outside the EU. They are responsible
:15:46. > :15:54.for our security. One of them is your boss, that is his title. They
:15:55. > :16:00.think we are safer in. There is a lot of things we agree on. We agree
:16:01. > :16:03.that Nato is the cornerstone of our defence, but that the EU defence
:16:04. > :16:10.structures condiment that. If we were outside the EU, we would not
:16:11. > :16:16.lose anything from those structures. The common European defence policy
:16:17. > :16:21.and the procurement opportunities, the opportunities to partake in
:16:22. > :16:24.missions, they are open to non-EU member states and Nato, so we don't
:16:25. > :16:31.lose anything by leaving. We would gain massively the ability to take
:16:32. > :16:36.that control of our borders, just one example, if we were outside.
:16:37. > :16:42.Let's take the issue of what we would lose. Michael Fallon, you are
:16:43. > :16:48.in his department, he is a Eurosceptic, he says, if we left, it
:16:49. > :16:52.would be smaller and weaker, which is precisely what Vladimir Putin
:16:53. > :16:57.wants. He wants the EU to be smaller and weaker. You cannot deny that.
:16:58. > :17:04.The key issue is, what is the operational benefit that being in
:17:05. > :17:08.the EU or taking part in any of the defence structures and security
:17:09. > :17:13.structures that it plans on setting up, like a pan European intelligence
:17:14. > :17:18.agency, what is the benefit of that? I would argue there is none, and it
:17:19. > :17:22.frustrates our ability to share intelligence. We don't share
:17:23. > :17:27.intelligence with pan-European agencies, we share it with other
:17:28. > :17:34.nations are. I did not ask about that. I asked a geopolitical
:17:35. > :17:37.question, your boss says the EU would be smaller and weaker if we
:17:38. > :17:43.left, and that is precisely what the Kremlin wants. Do you deny that? In
:17:44. > :17:49.a time of austerity, when we are facing massive terror threats, if we
:17:50. > :17:53.are spending time, money and energy on anything that does not give as an
:17:54. > :17:59.operational advantage and a benefit in tackling those threats, that is
:18:00. > :18:04.crazy. Do you deny that it would leave us smaller and weaker and that
:18:05. > :18:08.is what Vladimir Putin wants? No. The thing that. Any malicious
:18:09. > :18:14.ambitions that anybody has against us, the Ukraine, other member states
:18:15. > :18:19.of the European Union is the success, the economic prosperity,
:18:20. > :18:23.the National security of those nation states. That is what will
:18:24. > :18:30.hold the threat that we are facing from Vladimir Putin and elsewhere.
:18:31. > :18:38.Philip Hammond says, it is only our enemies who want us to leave. Can
:18:39. > :18:43.you name a single ally that want us to leave? I can. People have
:18:44. > :18:48.different views in different nations. That is take our strongest
:18:49. > :18:54.ally, the United States. They want us to stay. That is what Barack
:18:55. > :18:59.Obama has said, but I would argue strongly, and there are many people
:19:00. > :19:11.there that would agree with me, the former head of the CIA is one,
:19:12. > :19:14.thinks that the EU is requiring of us of restricting our alliance with
:19:15. > :19:19.the United States. The official policy of America under Republican
:19:20. > :19:25.and Democratic presidents has been that we should stay in. That is a
:19:26. > :19:31.fact. That is their view, but it is not an argument. I asked if you
:19:32. > :19:37.could name a major or minor ally that we have that want us to leave.
:19:38. > :19:42.I have mentioned the United States. They want us to stay. Give me an
:19:43. > :19:49.ally that want us to leave. Australia, New Zealand, Canada,
:19:50. > :19:55.France, Germany? Our key relationships, they fully
:19:56. > :20:04.understand... Our relationship with them is threatened by legislation
:20:05. > :20:08.and requirements of the EU. The most sophisticated intelligence alliance
:20:09. > :20:15.in the world involves Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand,
:20:16. > :20:19.Canada, they want us to stay. I think they are wrong. The
:20:20. > :20:24.relationship that we have with them would be jeopardised and would be
:20:25. > :20:31.further jeopardised when we set up... That is their view. You have
:20:32. > :20:37.mentioned Nato, the general secretary says a strong EU with a
:20:38. > :20:43.strong Britain is good for Nato. The head of the US Army in Europe says
:20:44. > :20:48.leaving could weaken Nato. There are people that will argue that Nato is
:20:49. > :20:52.undermined by the EU structures. Not the head of Nato. The EU defence
:20:53. > :21:00.structures that we have complemented. But they are not
:21:01. > :21:04.closed off to us by leaving. The key issue about the threats we are
:21:05. > :21:13.facing, the threats that come with free movement of people and also
:21:14. > :21:17.with civil unrest on the continent, will be resolved by us leaving, by
:21:18. > :21:22.taking back control of our borders, our laws and money. And
:21:23. > :21:27.kick-starting reform in the EU. All of the parties that want us to
:21:28. > :21:31.leave, they are protectionist, xenophobic, authoritarian, against
:21:32. > :21:37.the single market, and they hope by us leaving, there will be chaos in
:21:38. > :21:45.Europe. Is that the chaos that would be good for our security? Vladimir
:21:46. > :21:51.Putin, you have mentioned, the rise of far right organisations in
:21:52. > :21:56.Europe, as a consequence of the forced harmonisation of the euro and
:21:57. > :22:02.the austerity and the problems that is bringing to member states, they
:22:03. > :22:10.have their arguments. They are not on my side, they are mistaken. What
:22:11. > :22:16.will ensure that those malicious ambitions against us are thwarted is
:22:17. > :22:20.if we have strong nation states. That is not what Europe is currently
:22:21. > :22:26.delivering. It is delivering weak states, states that don't have the
:22:27. > :22:29.money to put into their defence. The Prime Minister, the Defence
:22:30. > :22:34.Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, the head of Nato, the head of the US
:22:35. > :22:39.Army in Europe, all of our major allies, starting with America, think
:22:40. > :22:44.we are more secure and they would be more secure if we stay in, and you,
:22:45. > :22:49.a junior minister in the defence Department, say they are wrong. If
:22:50. > :22:53.they were all lined up in front of me, I would say freedom is never a
:22:54. > :22:57.gamble. We have gambled a huge amount in the past to preserve our
:22:58. > :23:02.freedom, we risk nothing by trying to take it back. If we take back
:23:03. > :23:08.control of our borders, we have got free movement of people, with the
:23:09. > :23:14.risk that brings... We are running out of time. In what way with being
:23:15. > :23:24.outside the EU make it easier for us to stop terrorists coming in?
:23:25. > :23:31.Europol estimate we have 5000 Daesh fighters that have returned to
:23:32. > :23:38.Europe. Unless we have concrete intelligence, we cannot turn them
:23:39. > :23:42.back. Are you saying that other Europeans would now need a visa to
:23:43. > :23:46.come to this country? How would you stop somebody with a European
:23:47. > :23:51.passport to come in? We could have control. We don't have those options
:23:52. > :23:56.now. If we had suspicions, we would stop them coming in. That is not
:23:57. > :24:03.correct. We stopped about 6000 people from the EU. On matters of
:24:04. > :24:08.security issues of public danger, we stopped around 500 a year, we can do
:24:09. > :24:12.that now, whether they have an EU passport or not. If we have sketchy
:24:13. > :24:18.intelligence, we cannot prevent them from coming in. Unless you have a
:24:19. > :24:24.Visa system from France and Germany, you could not direct. We risk
:24:25. > :24:30.nothing by taking back control of our borders and our laws that
:24:31. > :24:35.underpin this framework. It is not a gamble, staying in is a gamble,
:24:36. > :24:38.because it will only get worse. We have to take back control, that is
:24:39. > :24:43.what is required to keep our nation safe. Has the controversy around the
:24:44. > :24:51.Prime Minister damaged his credibility as leader of the Remain
:24:52. > :24:56.campaign? I don't think so. I don't have any other inside scoop, but I
:24:57. > :25:02.don't think he has done anything wrong. What this is about is trust
:25:03. > :25:06.and he has two now demonstrate and builder up that trust and report
:25:07. > :25:12.with the general public. This will raise questions, as your panel said,
:25:13. > :25:17.about politicians publishing further information about themselves, and
:25:18. > :25:21.although I understand argument around privacy and security, if that
:25:22. > :25:22.is what the electorate require of their officials, that is what will
:25:23. > :25:25.have to happen. We're now well into the campaign
:25:26. > :25:27.period for local and national elections
:25:28. > :25:29.across the UK on May 5th. With the Conservatives and Labour
:25:30. > :25:32.not exactly united at the moment you might think it's a perfect
:25:33. > :25:34.opportunity for Ukip, the party that won four million
:25:35. > :25:36.votes at last year's Even more so when the elections
:25:37. > :25:40.are being fought during an EU referendum campaign
:25:41. > :25:45.Nigel Farage helped bring about. So why instead are the men and women
:25:46. > :25:51.of his party so bitterly divided? All political parties have ups
:25:52. > :25:56.and downs, but mostly Ukip has been climbing the ladder
:25:57. > :25:59.of British politics. It's poised on the verge
:26:00. > :26:02.of a referendum it helped secure, offering the very thing the party
:26:03. > :26:06.was set up for. So why is it so short of funds
:26:07. > :26:12.and riven with in-fighting? Once-dominant Nigel Farage has lost
:26:13. > :26:16.control of parts of his party. The clearest example is being foiled
:26:17. > :26:19.by the party's ruling body over his prefered candidates
:26:20. > :26:23.for May elections in Wales. In particular, his desire to stop
:26:24. > :26:27.the selection of Neil Hamilton, Electoral concerns about Mr Hamilton
:26:28. > :26:33.are not new in Ukip. The Sunday Politics has
:26:34. > :26:35.been given a series In January 2015, Mr Hamilton
:26:36. > :26:42.complained to Nigel Farage he'd been branded as toxic by some
:26:43. > :26:45.inside the party. Michael McGough, a general-election
:26:46. > :26:48.candidate, emailed Mr Hamilton In every article that you feature,
:26:49. > :26:55.your name has the appendage "disgraced former Tory MP",
:26:56. > :27:08.and sadly this will continue. And on the same day an email
:27:09. > :27:11.from the then-party treasurer Andrew Reid accused Mr Hamilton,
:27:12. > :27:15.by then a longstanding Ukip-er, of behaving exactly
:27:16. > :27:48.as he'd been portrayed.. If you looked at the Welsh assembly
:27:49. > :27:55.elections, those are a great example of their tendency to shoot itself in
:27:56. > :28:01.the foot. You have some very Eurosceptic areas, but yet Ukip has
:28:02. > :28:04.become embroiled in a dispute over which of its candidates should stand
:28:05. > :28:08.where and whether it should be standing former Conservatives in
:28:09. > :28:09.mainly industrial parts of the country.
:28:10. > :28:11.The infighting didn't stop with Neil Hamilton,
:28:12. > :28:13.with 16 candidates signing a letter demanding that another candidate,
:28:14. > :28:18.Gareth Bennett, be deselected because he had expressed a negative
:28:19. > :28:21.view of other candidates, undermined the party
:28:22. > :28:25.and our own ability to campaign through his offensive
:28:26. > :28:33.and borderline-racist comments about immigrants to Wales.
:28:34. > :28:35.The party's National Executive Council did not deselect him and two
:28:36. > :28:38.other candidates have since stood down.
:28:39. > :28:41.Nigel Farage has been repeatedly outvoted by the NEC,
:28:42. > :28:45.leading Mr Farage to consider abolishing it.
:28:46. > :28:48.However, the Sunday Politics has learned just this week
:28:49. > :28:53.a representative of the NEC hostile to Nigel Farage angrily accosted
:28:54. > :28:56.a Welsh Ukip staffer in the Cardiff office,
:28:57. > :28:59.saying, "I've come to find which faction you are in,
:29:00. > :29:06.And Neil isn't the only colleague Nigel has fallen out with.
:29:07. > :29:10.Just two weeks ago, Suzanne Evans, seen by many as one of the party's
:29:11. > :29:13.best performers, ended up in the extraordinary position
:29:14. > :29:16.of taking the party to the High Court to overturn
:29:17. > :29:19.a suspension that also barred her from standing
:29:20. > :29:33.If people cannot come together and unite behind the main principles of
:29:34. > :29:36.the party, maybe they are in the wrong party and they should take
:29:37. > :29:38.their personal career ambitions to another party.
:29:39. > :29:41.On top of this, insiders have told the Sunday Politics Ukip's in severe
:29:42. > :29:44.Staff have been laid off, or unpaid for months,
:29:45. > :29:46.membership is down and candidates are expected to contribute
:29:47. > :29:49.in the thousands to their own campaigns.
:29:50. > :29:53.Stuart Wheeler, a donor who's given Ukip over 600K in the past six
:29:54. > :29:57.years, told us he hasn't donated to the party since last year and has
:29:58. > :30:08.Paul Sykes, who contributed to Ukip's 2014 European elections
:30:09. > :30:11.campaign, is no longer funding the party.
:30:12. > :30:14.Ukip doesn't control the funding Parliament gives to an opposition
:30:15. > :30:20.Currently 212K a year, that's controlled by the party's
:30:21. > :30:24.one MP, Douglas Carswell, who turned down the original sum
:30:25. > :30:31.of 670K and as a result fell out with Nigel Farage.
:30:32. > :30:37.We've learned that until recently the security bill for Mr Farage
:30:38. > :30:42.around a third of all monthly membership fees.
:30:43. > :30:47.The sum may now be lower, and is not now funded by the party.
:30:48. > :30:52.The party also paid Facebook ?90,000 in the year of the general election.
:30:53. > :30:58.Senior figures are split, supporting rival campaigns
:30:59. > :31:00.for leaving the European Union, both vying to be
:31:01. > :31:09.Nigel Farage is determined that it will be Grassroots Out rather
:31:10. > :31:13.than rivals Vote Leave that wins that designation, to be
:31:14. > :31:19.One donor who is still giving to Ukip, ?50,000 to the Welsh
:31:20. > :31:23.campaign last week, is Arron Banks, a key figure in Grassroots Out.
:31:24. > :31:25.We have been told by numerous sources that Nigel Farage wants
:31:26. > :31:27.to restructure and revamp Ukip after the referendum,
:31:28. > :31:30.and that they think Arron Banks would be chairman
:31:31. > :31:44.I did not say rebranded as much, but I have watched the five Star
:31:45. > :31:50.Movement in Italy, basically, an online party, where people can join
:31:51. > :31:53.for modest sums of money, but have a say in choosing the direction of the
:31:54. > :31:54.party, a sense that the old membership models are a bit
:31:55. > :31:56.outdated. His critics think he extends
:31:57. > :31:59.that view to the NEC. His supporters say such
:32:00. > :32:01.a digital model would also make this troublesome body for Mr Farage
:32:02. > :32:04.redunant and let him take back control of a party that right now
:32:05. > :32:10.is far from at ease with itself. And we're joined in the studio
:32:11. > :32:13.now by Neil Hamilton, he's a former deputy chairman
:32:14. > :32:16.of Ukip, and he's hoping to become one of the party's first members
:32:17. > :32:24.of the Welsh Assembly. Welcome to the programme. Ukip was
:32:25. > :32:30.created to bring about a referendum on the EU, you have got one, why is
:32:31. > :32:33.the party in such chaos? It is a fantastic achievement for Ukip to
:32:34. > :32:37.have brought this referendum to the people of Britain, but Ukip has
:32:38. > :32:42.grown up very rapidly in the last few years. It is only in the last
:32:43. > :32:46.four or five years that it has become a mainstream political party,
:32:47. > :32:52.and I suppose... These are the growing pains of such a party. It is
:32:53. > :32:57.basically about jockeying for position, and you get these personal
:32:58. > :33:01.feuds in all parties. I lived through the Major government and the
:33:02. > :33:05.Thatcher government, where we saw it in spades, this is nothing compared
:33:06. > :33:09.to the Conservative Party. A crucial issue that has exposed the visions
:33:10. > :33:12.within the party, which of the rival campaign should get the official
:33:13. > :33:18.designation from the Electoral Commission, which one do you want to
:33:19. > :33:22.get it? Well, I have taken a neutral position all along, because we have
:33:23. > :33:28.to work with whoever gets the designation, and I am a great
:33:29. > :33:32.admirer of Arron Banks, he has made a fantastic contribution. There can
:33:33. > :33:38.only be one. Years Nigel's preferred vehicle. I am asking your view. I am
:33:39. > :33:41.ambivalent, I will unite behind whoever gets the designation, the
:33:42. > :33:46.Electoral Commission will announce the decision in the coming weeks, so
:33:47. > :33:51.this will be an argument in the past. How much trouble is there
:33:52. > :33:55.between Mr Farage and the party's ruling national executive committee?
:33:56. > :33:59.Well, Nigel is a member of and a frequent at tender at the NEC.
:34:00. > :34:06.Because he is the party leader and a strong and dominant individual,
:34:07. > :34:11.without whom Ukip is -- would not be where it is today, it does not mean
:34:12. > :34:16.he get his way on everything, we are a Democratic Party. The NEC is a
:34:17. > :34:20.vigorous forum for debate, that is a healthy situation. Will he try to
:34:21. > :34:24.change that after the referendum, will there be a Farage coup? Just
:34:25. > :34:29.because you read it in the newspapers does not mean it is true,
:34:30. > :34:36.of course! I have no window into Nigel's mind on this. Should he? I
:34:37. > :34:40.am not seeing anybody who knows anything about this, apart from
:34:41. > :34:46.whoever wrote the piece in the having done post. Should he continue
:34:47. > :34:51.as leader? He was elected just two years ago, he can go on for three
:34:52. > :34:56.years before going for re-elections. I am asking for your view. I think
:34:57. > :35:03.he will continue as leader beyond the referendum. The world after the
:35:04. > :35:07.referendum will be a very different kettle of fish... I am asking your
:35:08. > :35:12.view, should he continue as leader after the referendum? I think there
:35:13. > :35:18.will be a widespread re-evaluation of work Ukip is after the
:35:19. > :35:20.referendum. We are going to win seats in the Welsh Assembly, the
:35:21. > :35:24.Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly, and we will then
:35:25. > :35:29.have various representatives... Let me try one more time, after the
:35:30. > :35:34.referendum, should he step down? Should there be a new leader, in
:35:35. > :35:40.your view? I am not going to call for Nigel to stand down, I am
:35:41. > :35:43.perfectly certain that if there were an election for leader, party
:35:44. > :35:48.members would vote for Nigel overwhelmingly. This is a nonissue.
:35:49. > :35:53.When was the last time you spoke to him? Several weeks ago, when he came
:35:54. > :36:01.to the NEC meeting last month. You used to be great mates. We still
:36:02. > :36:05.are, it is like a married couple who have been together quite a long
:36:06. > :36:10.time, you have ups and downs, he throws China at me, I figured up and
:36:11. > :36:13.put it on the mantelpiece. He blocked you from standing in the
:36:14. > :36:18.general election, you were removed as deputy chairman in February, he
:36:19. > :36:24.wanted you off the list in Wales, all part of the division and chaos
:36:25. > :36:27.that Farage and Hamilton dynamic. Ukip is a life political
:36:28. > :36:33.institution, people have... There are personality feuds and
:36:34. > :36:36.difficulties. I do not think we lose anything by saying that we are
:36:37. > :36:42.normal red-blooded individuals and have the same kind of tips that
:36:43. > :36:48.other parties have. Ukip is strengthened by these kinds of
:36:49. > :36:52.scraps, I think. We heard some of the e-mails about you, does it
:36:53. > :36:59.disturb you that some members regard you as a controversial, even a toxic
:37:00. > :37:05.vigour in the party? Well, this is all exaggerated. It is just tittle
:37:06. > :37:11.tattle. That was one e-mail amongst many thousands of e-mails I have
:37:12. > :37:17.had. There were several e-mails, articles said that your name has the
:37:18. > :37:21.appendage disgraced former Tory MP. Hearty members do not seem to be too
:37:22. > :37:25.bothered about that, because they voted for me in overwhelming numbers
:37:26. > :37:30.to be the candidate in the Welsh assembly in my region. -- party
:37:31. > :37:33.members. I topped the poll in the national executive elections with
:37:34. > :37:41.the highest number of votes anybody has ever got in an NEC election. I
:37:42. > :37:47.would have thought it may be a lesson learned, expenses. That was a
:37:48. > :37:51.misrepresentation, and the innuendo was entirely dismissed after an
:37:52. > :37:56.internal investigation. So you did not claim for staying at your wife's
:37:57. > :38:03.place? I am not going to go into what I did or did not claim for in
:38:04. > :38:07.my expenses when I was the Ukip campaign director. I had a pay
:38:08. > :38:12.package which was agreed, and all my pay and expenses were legitimate.
:38:13. > :38:17.You know, the key point here is that Ukip is now a major player in the
:38:18. > :38:20.land, we will elect ten members to the Welsh assembly... You have said
:38:21. > :38:27.that, and you hope to be one of them. Would you ever see yourself as
:38:28. > :38:30.the future leader of Ukip? At my age, your age? We are
:38:31. > :38:32.contemporaries! I do not see myself as a future leader. That is be
:38:33. > :38:34.enough, Neil Hamilton. It's just gone 11:35,
:38:35. > :38:43.you're watching the Sunday Politics. Hello and welcome to a special
:38:44. > :38:46.edition of Sunday Politics Wales. The old political adage goes,
:38:47. > :38:50."it's the economy, stupid." It's certainly dominated debate
:38:51. > :38:53.so far in the Assembly election There are big questions
:38:54. > :38:57.about the fate of one of our biggest industries,
:38:58. > :38:59.steel, along with continuing arguments over the M4 relief road
:39:00. > :39:03.and the Circuit of Wales scheme. In a moment I'll be asking the main
:39:04. > :39:07.parties what they would do to help, It has been a very tough couple
:39:08. > :39:15.of weeks for the Welsh economy. The problems of the steel industry
:39:16. > :39:18.have been known for months but
:39:19. > :39:22.the decision of Tata to sell off its British plants, including
:39:23. > :39:24.Port Talbot, was a body blow. How much help is needed
:39:25. > :39:28.from the UK and Welsh And what will these plants be
:39:29. > :39:32.producing in future? The answers to those
:39:33. > :39:34.questions are vital to the thousands who work
:39:35. > :39:38.in steel in Wales. Last week there was more bad news
:39:39. > :39:41.for job prospects in the The Circuit of Wales was supposed
:39:42. > :39:45.to create 6,000 jobs in Ebbw Vale and the surrounding area but
:39:46. > :39:49.the Welsh government's decision not to underwrite the entire ?350
:39:50. > :39:52.million private initiative means it These are just too albeit
:39:53. > :40:04.important elements -- two of the Welsh economy but there are
:40:05. > :40:07.other causes for concern. Back in December,
:40:08. > :40:08.official statistics showed that not only less
:40:09. > :40:10.is produced for every person working in Wales
:40:11. > :40:12.but also the economy here has grown less
:40:13. > :40:16.than the UK average. The sad truth is that Wales
:40:17. > :40:19.punches well below its weight, with 5% of the UK
:40:20. > :40:22.population, it produces only 3.4% of Joining me now to discuss all that
:40:23. > :40:32.are five party stalwarts all brimming with ideas
:40:33. > :40:36.to improve the situation. Eluned Morgan speaks for Labour,
:40:37. > :40:45.David Melding for the Conservatives and Eluned Parrott for
:40:46. > :40:56.the Liberal Democrats. Thank you all for coming in this
:40:57. > :41:03.morning. I will start with just a quick pitch, 30 seconds. What would
:41:04. > :41:06.you do to turn around the Welsh economy?
:41:07. > :41:09.Starting with Eluned Parrott? If we are to catch up with the other UK
:41:10. > :41:13.nations, we have to do something different. We can't copy what
:41:14. > :41:17.everyone else is doing and expected to have a different result. We want
:41:18. > :41:21.a Welsh develop the bank that has the aim is to help small businesses
:41:22. > :41:28.to grow, bring together funding and advice. Secondly, to provide an
:41:29. > :41:31.export advice service, an office that would help pitch for business
:41:32. > :41:37.for Wales outside in the world. Thirdly, an investment bank on that
:41:38. > :41:40.would bring in investment for infrastructure projects. Then to
:41:41. > :41:43.make sure everyone has an opportunity to get involved in our
:41:44. > :41:49.economy. We want to double the number of apprenticeships so people
:41:50. > :41:54.have an opportunity for the future. Sam Gould, what about Ukip? We want
:41:55. > :41:58.to devolve economic development to local councils so that local people
:41:59. > :42:01.can have a say in what they want done in their local areas. By doing
:42:02. > :42:06.that we would have more local influence over business rates and
:42:07. > :42:11.see competitiveness on those rates for small businesses. Also, I feel
:42:12. > :42:15.that we need to scrap the Severn Bridge tolls, which is a massive
:42:16. > :42:18.deterrent for trade in South Wales in particular and by doing so, that
:42:19. > :42:23.will encourage more trade between England and Wales.
:42:24. > :42:29.David Melding, what about the Conservatives? Our economy needs
:42:30. > :42:32.more enterprise and infrastructure. The small and medium-sized sector,
:42:33. > :42:37.we need to look at it and reduce the cost for businesses such as business
:42:38. > :42:42.rates, better training and support. Inward investment- looking after
:42:43. > :42:46.those that come in better and also marketing Wales more effectively so
:42:47. > :42:50.we can draw more inward investment. Taking the London and south-east
:42:51. > :42:52.market seriously as well. A good presence in London would help so
:42:53. > :42:57.that we can market Wales effectively. The M4 needs to be
:42:58. > :43:02.sorted and we need to move quickly on that and electrification and
:43:03. > :43:07.other major infrastructure. Adam Price, what is Plaid Cymru 's
:43:08. > :43:12.point? The challenge to the Welsh economy
:43:13. > :43:17.is that the wealth creating of the economy is too small, only 40% of
:43:18. > :43:22.jobs in the private sector and 60% in the public sector so we have to
:43:23. > :43:26.reverse that ratio, by identifying the growth markets and the growth
:43:27. > :43:30.businesses we can support in terms of creating jobs. We do that through
:43:31. > :43:37.taking it out of the hands of civil servants who are risk averse and
:43:38. > :43:45.clueless, often, and giving it to a specialist agency. Thank you. And
:43:46. > :43:50.Eluned Morgan for Labour? We have to build on some of the
:43:51. > :43:53.successes. We have record inward investment, the best since records
:43:54. > :43:57.began. We have got youth unemployment dropping faster than
:43:58. > :44:02.the rest of the UK but we do need to go further and build the skills base
:44:03. > :44:08.and that is why we are hoping to create an extra 100,000 traineeships
:44:09. > :44:13.for young people but on top of that, I think it is important we focus on
:44:14. > :44:16.the small and medium-sized enterprises, releasing them. Three
:44:17. > :44:20.quarters of them will be released from paying business rates and that
:44:21. > :44:24.has been promised in the Labour manifesto. We have to focus on the
:44:25. > :44:28.city regions, building them with links from the valleys into the
:44:29. > :44:33.cities. The same thing in Swansea. Let's not forget North Wales and
:44:34. > :44:36.West Wales. There is a development plan for North Wales and we need to
:44:37. > :44:42.also focus on the west. We will come onto North and West
:44:43. > :44:45.Wales in a moment but first, the dominating economic problem for
:44:46. > :44:53.Wales at the moment, Tata steel. Where do you see the problem and the
:44:54. > :44:55.solution is? It is extremely worrying for
:44:56. > :44:58.everyone involved in the steel industry and communities around them
:44:59. > :45:05.but the first thing we have to do is make sure we stop the Chinese from
:45:06. > :45:08.dumping steel. How? First of all, the Tory government have been
:45:09. > :45:14.blocking initiatives in Brussels so we have to go much further on that.
:45:15. > :45:18.Make sure we can do something about the cost of energy, releasing them
:45:19. > :45:22.from that. We need to stand by them and make sure that we can go as far
:45:23. > :45:28.as possible but let's be realistic. I would like to see, if nobody steps
:45:29. > :45:34.in, a temporary nationalisation if necessary. Let's be clear. The Welsh
:45:35. > :45:37.government does not have the kind of money necessary. It would have to be
:45:38. > :45:46.the UK Government. That accusation Eluned Morgan meant
:45:47. > :45:53.about Conservatives blocking initiatives. Is the more the
:45:54. > :45:56.government could have done? The UK Government has but you need
:45:57. > :46:01.to be selective in what you aim for because you could spark a more
:46:02. > :46:05.general trade war with a big impact in lots of other industries so these
:46:06. > :46:11.are very difficult things to juggle. It is right that we are taking a
:46:12. > :46:16.serious look at this, especially on the Chinese steel products. All the
:46:17. > :46:20.solutions need to be looked at but we need a buyer that can come in and
:46:21. > :46:24.take on the whole process and that needs to be the concentration for
:46:25. > :46:29.the next month or six weeks. Is there a problem with saying that
:46:30. > :46:36.all options have to be considered, apart from the people saying but not
:46:37. > :46:38.nationalisation. I think those of us suggesting some form of
:46:39. > :46:44.nationalisation see it as a temporary factor. I am not going to
:46:45. > :46:49.take a stance that says if we could get a buyer within a year that the
:46:50. > :46:52.particular approach should be used but I take a lot of convincing that
:46:53. > :46:56.nationalisation should be the right way forward because if you are
:46:57. > :47:01.certain you are going to get a buyer, you can just work that
:47:02. > :47:07.forward. Sam Gould, part of the problem is
:47:08. > :47:11.the import of cheap Chinese steel. What we don't want to get into is a
:47:12. > :47:16.huge trade war with the Chinese when the amount of steel we send to China
:47:17. > :47:25.isn't all that much. The US put a massive tariffs on
:47:26. > :47:29.steel from China and they have been able to protect the dumping of
:47:30. > :47:34.Chinese steel so what we need is the European Parliament in Brussels and
:47:35. > :47:39.EU commission to protect Welsh steel and protect it from Chinese dumping.
:47:40. > :47:42.It is a major concern but we also need to look at business rates,
:47:43. > :47:48.which have been devolved for over a year to the Welsh government. Carter
:47:49. > :47:51.is paying ?10 million in business rates every year, a phenomenal
:47:52. > :47:56.amount. It is very difficult for those business rates to be cut
:47:57. > :48:01.specifically for Tata because of the trade laws. The UK Government can
:48:02. > :48:06.then look at energy prices. Plaid Cymru said a few months ago
:48:07. > :48:10.that part nationalisation should be considered but as we have been
:48:11. > :48:14.hearing, the money isn't in the hands of the worst government. Is it
:48:15. > :48:17.something he would be pushing for? We were calling for a contingency
:48:18. > :48:27.plan and the only political party doing that. We could foresee the
:48:28. > :48:30.potential of Tata walking away. Other governments have been
:48:31. > :48:34.sluggish. Now isn't the time for making party political points
:48:35. > :48:37.because we need to work together but I would like to see the Welsh
:48:38. > :48:42.government laying a more proactive role. It is good they have sat down
:48:43. > :48:46.with Liberty Stadium but they should be talking to the other buyers, the
:48:47. > :48:54.group from Switzerland that they know from the deal they looked at in
:48:55. > :48:58.Milford Haven. Particularly the management buyout, the local
:48:59. > :49:01.management input target that drew up the McKinsey plan that they believe
:49:02. > :49:11.shows a credible path to profitability, let's depth behind --
:49:12. > :49:16.get behind them. And also, possibly, taking a stake as part of a
:49:17. > :49:20.long-term sustainable plan for the steel industry in Wales.
:49:21. > :49:23.Eluned Parrott, what do you think would be the Liberal Democrat
:49:24. > :49:27.response to the way forward on this? We need a long-term strategy. The
:49:28. > :49:32.steel workers in Wales don't want to be lurching from crisis to crisis so
:49:33. > :49:36.it isn't just about the immediate short-term, though it is crucial we
:49:37. > :49:41.don't let the fires go out in Port Talbot but we have to look at the.
:49:42. > :49:45.In terms of the of the steel industry, they have drawn up a
:49:46. > :49:49.5-point plan that they drew up with the governments but not a single one
:49:50. > :49:55.of those points has been completed by either government. I am not
:49:56. > :49:58.impressed by the ?60 million promotion by Carwyn Jones because
:49:59. > :50:02.?30 million of that is a loan with no cash up front and the rest of it
:50:03. > :50:06.was a business rates scheme but it was applying to an enterprise zone
:50:07. > :50:11.in Port Talbot which may not even include the sight of the steelworks
:50:12. > :50:15.so it is possible that half of that money, ?30 million, actually went
:50:16. > :50:20.benefit steelworks in Wales. We need proactive action to avoid those laws
:50:21. > :50:28.that you are concerned about. We need to take a benefit to the whole
:50:29. > :50:32.of the Welsh economy and it provides more markets and opportunities for
:50:33. > :50:34.Welsh steel. It is one thing the Welsh government could and should
:50:35. > :50:38.have done and they should have done it a year ago.
:50:39. > :50:44.I know we were discussing it in terms of Tata, business rates, but
:50:45. > :50:46.enjoyed something the worst government does control, David
:50:47. > :50:48.Melding, do you think it should be used as a weapon to give a boost to
:50:49. > :50:53.the economy? I think the worst government and UK
:50:54. > :50:58.Government can do some things to help ameliorate the situation and
:50:59. > :51:04.make it a bit more competitive but there are big market forces and the
:51:05. > :51:12.fact the world economy is suffering. Beyond Tata? You can't change the
:51:13. > :51:19.fundamentals necessarily but you can equip business with better skills,
:51:20. > :51:23.power generation, perhaps. There are things you can do but you need to
:51:24. > :51:25.target your help effectively so that it is really going to change things
:51:26. > :51:33.in the long-term. Where would you target your help?
:51:34. > :51:38.Helping with business rates is something. At the minute, the more
:51:39. > :51:46.they invest, the higher the business rates will be. Energy generation and
:51:47. > :51:50.greener energy is a real challenge and I think the state could help
:51:51. > :51:58.there. More effective procurement. I think that is really important and
:51:59. > :52:00.if we are getting on the, there could be local markets forced
:52:01. > :52:08.products as well. Part of some of the issues that in
:52:09. > :52:13.an apparent -- Eluned Parrott raises is important. We have a ministerial
:52:14. > :52:16.cheque-book and it isn't used with any logical consistency so we have
:52:17. > :52:23.an ?80 million deal for a conference Centre in Newport, which is fine,
:52:24. > :52:27.but only ?30 million put on the table to save our biggest company...
:52:28. > :52:35.What would you be your plan? I want to hear about party plans rather
:52:36. > :52:41.than... We need a coherent approach and we need to look at getting an
:52:42. > :52:45.equity stake so the taxpayer gets a return and we are a proper partner
:52:46. > :52:49.to business. We seem to be using the same strategy of the 1970s and 1980s
:52:50. > :52:54.where it is governments giving out grant aid rather than working
:52:55. > :52:57.alongside companies and management and workforce together to create a
:52:58. > :53:01.sustainable, long-term strategy for the Welsh economy.
:53:02. > :53:04.What kind of support do you think small and medium businesses and
:53:05. > :53:08.Wales need? The market to be more competitive
:53:09. > :53:13.and to do that, we need a review in terms of the way business rates are
:53:14. > :53:19.managed and in terms of EU state rules, limiting the amount that can
:53:20. > :53:23.be intervened in. In terms of procurement, EU procurement rules
:53:24. > :53:30.limit us from having a preference for Welsh and British steel and many
:53:31. > :53:38.of the purchases for Army personnel vehicles are using foreign steel so
:53:39. > :53:41.I think that is a limitation wherein under EU law, we can't buy from our
:53:42. > :53:45.businesses. What about the suggestion the
:53:46. > :53:48.government is going to tighten up rules so we can have a preference
:53:49. > :53:52.for British steel? We can't do that under the EU so we
:53:53. > :53:56.are so limited by what we can do while we are members of the European
:53:57. > :54:05.Union. Managing business rates we will do a lot more. Then we will
:54:06. > :54:11.have more competitiveness in Wales. Eluned Morgan, on the support that
:54:12. > :54:14.the parties can give to small and medium businesses, he said it would
:54:15. > :54:17.be a central part of the Labour pitch.
:54:18. > :54:21.What will it be? We are going to reduce business rates for three
:54:22. > :54:26.quarters of small businesses in Wales, and the response has been
:54:27. > :54:30.fantastic. People will breathe a sigh of relief. I think we have to
:54:31. > :54:33.be clear that Tata is losing ?1 million a day. We have a
:54:34. > :54:38.responsibility to look after taxpayers many and what we have to
:54:39. > :54:44.do is be more realistic about procurement -- taxpayers money.
:54:45. > :54:48.There are laws within the EU, of course, but if you take it within
:54:49. > :54:52.the life cycle of a plant, there are ways around this. Italy does it very
:54:53. > :54:56.creatively and we can be creative as well. I don't think the UK
:54:57. > :55:00.Government has... How can you be more creative? In
:55:01. > :55:06.your procurement rules, rather than having an immediate, how much does
:55:07. > :55:09.this cost? You look at it over the long term of the whole cycle of the
:55:10. > :55:13.investment planned. If you are looking at ropes, how long will it
:55:14. > :55:18.take and how long will that investment last? That is what they
:55:19. > :55:22.have done in Italy and it has been highly successful so we could be
:55:23. > :55:25.more creative in our procurement. Wales has taken a lead in terms of
:55:26. > :55:30.procurement, securing from Welsh companies. We need to be creative
:55:31. > :55:34.and that means investment. The Conservative government have cut-off
:55:35. > :55:40.investment for a number of years now. We haven't done that in Wales.
:55:41. > :55:44.We have been investing almost ?2 billion in our infrastructure in
:55:45. > :55:48.Wales and we have got to remember that what we have done is to use
:55:49. > :55:54.procurement as a tool to really build the top unease within Wales.
:55:55. > :55:59.We have to be more creative -- the world companies.
:56:00. > :56:03.What about the M4 relief road, if it does go ahead? David Melding, you
:56:04. > :56:08.mentioned infrastructure the earlier on. ?1 billion on the M4 relief road
:56:09. > :56:12.is using all the government borrowing. Is it the best use of
:56:13. > :56:19.money? It is the main route into the Welsh
:56:20. > :56:22.economy. There is also a key road in North Wales but so much of the Welsh
:56:23. > :56:29.economy is concentrated close to the M4. So we really need to sort this
:56:30. > :56:35.out and greedy route and start work. And use all the money on it? Not
:56:36. > :56:38.giving any other money to any other road?
:56:39. > :56:42.We need to sort out the M4 relief road and we need wider
:56:43. > :56:45.infrastructure development as well but this is a key project and the
:56:46. > :56:51.most important one. Eluned Parrott? I don't agree with
:56:52. > :56:54.spending ?1 billion on just one small corner of Wales. We need to
:56:55. > :56:57.make sure the infrastructure investment goes across Wales and
:56:58. > :57:02.many of our most deprived communities are not in the
:57:03. > :57:06.south-east of Wales. I want to see us taking a more broad stance
:57:07. > :57:09.towards infrastructure investment and ask ourselves is not how we can
:57:10. > :57:13.build a road but how can we make sure that people and goods can move
:57:14. > :57:18.freely around our own area and into and out of various? Then you start
:57:19. > :57:22.thinking more about investment that we should be making in our public
:57:23. > :57:27.transport, investment we should be making in things like ports and
:57:28. > :57:34.infrastructure, supporting those. We should also be making investment in
:57:35. > :57:38.rail hubs so that more goes on freight.
:57:39. > :57:41.Is it too much money to be spent on one project?
:57:42. > :57:46.It is indeed. We don't favour the most expensive route but we favour
:57:47. > :57:52.the alternative view route, which would cost around ?300 million to
:57:53. > :57:55.instruct. It is a significant amount of money and there is need for
:57:56. > :58:03.development in terms of that road but the entire rates network across
:58:04. > :58:06.Wales is in desperate need of investment. We need to share it out
:58:07. > :58:13.and we need to see it now. By scrapping the Severn Bridge tolls we
:58:14. > :58:15.were also further infrastructure and commerce across Wales and also into
:58:16. > :58:21.England, which is our biggest trading partner within Wales. In
:58:22. > :58:24.terms of that, we need to ensure that there is massive development
:58:25. > :58:30.and also in terms of waste, we will come to grips soon but there was a
:58:31. > :58:33.massive overspend on foreign aid, enough to keep Tata open for seven
:58:34. > :58:39.months. When it comes to these expending
:58:40. > :58:42.projects, is there too much emphasis on the south and south-east of
:58:43. > :58:45.Wales? Absolutely. We are in danger of
:58:46. > :58:51.Wales becoming a microcosm of the core problem of the UK economy,
:58:52. > :58:54.which is the overheated corner in the south-east that is relatively
:58:55. > :59:00.prosperous and the rest of Wales unfortunately sees itself declining.
:59:01. > :59:05.If we are going to solve our economic problems, we need balanced
:59:06. > :59:16.development. We can point at bottlenecks. Look at the A55, the M4
:59:17. > :59:22.further west. You are right, Sam, in terms of our strategic road network.
:59:23. > :59:29.It is crying out for investment and concentrating on 16 miles of a new
:59:30. > :59:33.three lane motorway is not going to help prize is out of the economic
:59:34. > :59:36.rut we are in as a nation. If you are talking about an overall
:59:37. > :59:42.spending on infrastructure throughout Wales, that is a huge
:59:43. > :59:47.undertaking in terms of finance. So you have to prioritise like any
:59:48. > :59:50.other proper national government does and unfortunately, there seems
:59:51. > :59:57.to be only one priority- the needs of the most prosperous part of
:59:58. > :00:01.Wales. I would love to see my capital city doing well but we need
:00:02. > :00:04.to spread that was pretty westwards and north as well.
:00:05. > :00:08.The last word on this issue for you, Eluned Morgan. Where does the
:00:09. > :00:13.government needs to prioritise spending?
:00:14. > :00:17.We need to recognise there is a problem and a bottleneck in Newport
:00:18. > :00:22.that clogs up and stops the economy from flowing and you can't get to
:00:23. > :00:29.West Wales unless you go via that route. Let's be realistic- you need
:00:30. > :00:36.to resolve that problem. Of course we look to the cheapest viable
:00:37. > :00:41.option on delivering the M4 corridor. It is right, we have to
:00:42. > :00:45.spread the wealth. We have a strategy for North Wales, a
:00:46. > :00:49.transport policy that is going to be investing in that but we also need
:00:50. > :00:54.to look at the other areas. One of the poorest areas is also the
:00:55. > :00:59.valleys and in order to get wealth into those areas, we have to keep
:01:00. > :01:03.the traffic flowing. Unless we correct the M4 problem, there will
:01:04. > :01:07.be problems that we will never develop the valleys. Very poor
:01:08. > :01:11.communities. Of course there is a loss of wealth in parts of Cardiff
:01:12. > :01:15.but there are huge problems in parts of our valleys communities and we
:01:16. > :01:21.cannot ignore them so we need to make sure the M4 route is corrected.
:01:22. > :01:24.If all of the money is spent on the relief road, with all of the best
:01:25. > :01:28.will in the world, there won't be enough money for all the other
:01:29. > :01:32.infrastructure projects that we have got.
:01:33. > :01:37.Exactly. That is part of the reason I don't think spending it all on it
:01:38. > :01:42.is wise but we also need a structured development bank. We need
:01:43. > :01:46.to have more money than we have on the table at the moment. We have
:01:47. > :01:51.public transport needs, not just in the south-east but also Swansea and
:01:52. > :01:54.anyone who has been sat on a Fabian Way, watching the life pass before
:01:55. > :02:00.their eyes as they are sat in traffic the... Anyone who has tried
:02:01. > :02:04.to cross from one side of Wales to the other realise that lots of Wales
:02:05. > :02:06.need capital investment and we need to find more creative ways of
:02:07. > :02:12.winning it in. It is quite wrong to say all our
:02:13. > :02:16.capital investment will be going into...
:02:17. > :02:19.Borrowing element. We will have a much wider infrastructure programme.
:02:20. > :02:25.Two thirds of the Welsh economy are directly served by the M4. To
:02:26. > :02:29.minimise it to 60 miles around Newport is to lack insight that it
:02:30. > :02:33.is important to the whole of the South and West...
:02:34. > :02:35.We could discuss this for another half an hour that time is beating
:02:36. > :02:36.us. Thank you all for coming in. Well, with less than a month to go,
:02:37. > :02:41.has anyone knocked your front door Cemlyn Davies now with a look back
:02:42. > :02:45.at the campaign so far, including one or two bits
:02:46. > :02:47.you may have missed. The Welsh Lib Dems teed off
:02:48. > :02:50.with a campaign launch at this And Kirsty Williams praised
:02:51. > :02:56.the contribution made by the party's small band of AMs
:02:57. > :03:01.in the last assembly. Size does not matter,
:03:02. > :03:03.it's what you do with it Plaid Cymru gave us the first
:03:04. > :03:11.manifesto, a 200 page tome. And the man who wrote it said
:03:12. > :03:14.he felt compelled to stand in the election after encountering
:03:15. > :03:19.a force few could resist. There are two reasons that I agreed
:03:20. > :03:22.to stand for One because my mother asked me
:03:23. > :03:30.to and that was a tough one. Meanwhile, a certain Tory MP posed
:03:31. > :03:32.for pictures and misheard a rather personal
:03:33. > :03:34.question during his visit to Boris Johnson then headed
:03:35. > :03:46.to Newport for more Pleidleisiwch!
:03:47. > :03:57.More or less. Welsh Labour leader Carwyn Jones
:03:58. > :04:01.appeared to delete this tweet, perhaps after realising
:04:02. > :04:03.the name above this shop window wouldn't necessarily give
:04:04. > :04:09.the right impression. Mr Jones also visited a research
:04:10. > :04:12.centre in St Asaph to announce Labour would create
:04:13. > :04:14.an ?80 million drugs fund, and he was quick
:04:15. > :04:17.to point out how his party proposal is different to the Cancer Drugs
:04:18. > :04:19.Fund the Welsh Conservatives have The two important differences
:04:20. > :04:28.with this fund are firstly - it is available to people
:04:29. > :04:30.with life-threatening conditions whatever they are, not just cancer,
:04:31. > :04:33.and secondly - the money is made available once the drugs
:04:34. > :04:41.have been approved. As for Ukip, most of
:04:42. > :04:43.the news coverage has focused on the decision not
:04:44. > :04:46.to deselect Gareth Bennett for his However, candidates have been busy
:04:47. > :04:49.putting the distracting selection process behind
:04:50. > :04:51.them as they set it up I wish we had got it
:04:52. > :04:59.completed rather earlier than we did but in the end
:05:00. > :05:03.we had an election for all the members across Wales
:05:04. > :05:07.and they ranked candidates in order so there has
:05:08. > :05:10.been a democratic choice. With all the candidates
:05:11. > :05:12.now in place, Ukip and the other parties will be
:05:13. > :05:15.backing players to come out on top. The finish line is less
:05:16. > :05:23.than four weeks away. The Welsh Green Party
:05:24. > :05:25.is looking for a breakthrough They have a couple of MSPs
:05:26. > :05:31.in Scotland, but there's Amelia Womack is their deputy UK
:05:32. > :05:45.leader and a candidate Good afternoon and thank you for
:05:46. > :05:50.coming in. We have just been hearing about the economy in Wales and the
:05:51. > :05:53.problems it is facing, Tata in particular. What would be the Green
:05:54. > :05:58.party answer to that? Steel is a fundamental part of the
:05:59. > :06:02.Green vision, whether it is renewable energy, rail
:06:03. > :06:10.infrastructure, buildings. We need our steel. Steel demand is looking
:06:11. > :06:13.to go up a 15% by 2050 as a result of investment in green technology so
:06:14. > :06:20.we need to make sure we are keeping jobs in Tata and make sure that we
:06:21. > :06:24.are in securing people's position here in Wales because we know what
:06:25. > :06:26.it is like when an industry is removed from a community and it can
:06:27. > :06:32.hit generations. What are the answers? You have given
:06:33. > :06:35.the problem will what are the answers?
:06:36. > :06:39.We want a long-term industrial plan with tariffs on Chinese still coming
:06:40. > :06:44.in, much as they did in the US and India, to protect steel in Wales but
:06:45. > :06:48.also ensure we have a procurement strategy that means we are bringing
:06:49. > :06:51.local steel into local business, especially in local authorities and
:06:52. > :06:56.the Welsh assembly project. We were cutting it with the other
:06:57. > :07:01.parties there. One major element of the economy in Wales will be an M4
:07:02. > :07:04.relief road and I was looking through your manifesto for the
:07:05. > :07:09.people and you won't be borrowing because you don't want one. You
:07:10. > :07:12.won't be borrowing the ?1 billion for it. What will you be doing in
:07:13. > :07:17.order to give that beast that a government can sometimes do for the
:07:18. > :07:20.Welsh economy in infrastructure? Making sure that we have investment
:07:21. > :07:27.into the Metro system that will connect South Wales. Even connecting
:07:28. > :07:30.up those areas of the valleys we were discussing. The tram options
:07:31. > :07:37.are the most viable to make sure they are future proofed. Making sure
:07:38. > :07:40.we are investing into railways that connect Wales because it isn't just
:07:41. > :07:45.the connection between England and Wales that isn't perfect. We are not
:07:46. > :07:50.connected north to South or mate and West. And is this a deliberate idea
:07:51. > :07:55.that you are trying to get away from what is the traditional image of the
:07:56. > :07:58.Green party of being obsessed with environmental issues and very little
:07:59. > :08:04.else? Is it important you are seen as covering a more broad spectrum of
:08:05. > :08:08.policy? The founding principles of the Green party are social justice
:08:09. > :08:13.and environmental justice and they go hand-in-hand. Everything is
:08:14. > :08:18.interlinked. You have got the environment, which provides things
:08:19. > :08:21.for people and people turned that environment into goods and services
:08:22. > :08:25.that create the economy so unless you are looking at this as a huge
:08:26. > :08:29.structure, you are not going to work for people and protect the
:08:30. > :08:34.environment. Looking at health, which overheard numbingly dominates
:08:35. > :08:40.the Welsh government -- overwhelmingly dominates the Welsh
:08:41. > :08:44.government budget, what are the green policies about hospitals? We
:08:45. > :08:51.want more community driven the hospitals and working around patient
:08:52. > :08:54.centred hospital strategies. For example, we want to make sure our
:08:55. > :09:00.NHS and social services are interlinked so somebody who has
:09:01. > :09:05.mental health problems will have it cared for in an interconnected way.
:09:06. > :09:11.Also we want to put in preventative measures around air pollution and
:09:12. > :09:15.protecting people's health. When it comes to spending on the NHS, we are
:09:16. > :09:20.always hearing about spending more or less. Does the Bean party think
:09:21. > :09:26.that spending on the NHS in Wales is roughly where Richard Reid was like
:09:27. > :09:29.are the savings that could be made? We both know that politics is about
:09:30. > :09:33.priorities and having those priorities for people and the planet
:09:34. > :09:40.and jobs and workers and for housing. That is where our
:09:41. > :09:46.priorities lie and we would like to see more devolution, which means
:09:47. > :09:49.that we can have investment and change that dynamic. We do think
:09:50. > :09:55.that we need to be getting better investment into Wales. The EU
:09:56. > :10:01.referendum is coming up and a lot of the investment that comes in from
:10:02. > :10:06.the EU I did see it being buffered by the government if we leave. That
:10:07. > :10:17.is why I want to remain in the EU. Looking at the manifesto, there is
:10:18. > :10:22.an unhealthy food tax. ?300 million a year in Wales. What would be taxed
:10:23. > :10:26.under that? So this is taken from the older People's manifesto that
:10:27. > :10:31.was put out back in January, I believe. That was before the budget
:10:32. > :10:35.from the month which has now introduced a sugar tax. In fact,
:10:36. > :10:41.sugar taxes have become a popular idea because of the impact on health
:10:42. > :10:46.and diabetes and the impact it has on the cost of the NHS. Is that no
:10:47. > :10:52.longer an element you would be looking at? It has been taken on by
:10:53. > :10:56.government. Tuition fees, then. There has been talk about how
:10:57. > :11:02.students from Wales should be helped. You are saying no tuition
:11:03. > :11:09.fees for Welsh students studying in Wales, so what about courses in
:11:10. > :11:14.Northern Ireland and elsewhere? We need to be looking at next steps and
:11:15. > :11:18.a lot of the discussion about free education takes out of account the
:11:19. > :11:22.fact that when you get a degree there isn't always a job at the end
:11:23. > :11:25.of it so we need to be focusing on apprenticeships and bringing people
:11:26. > :11:30.back to Wales through a printer ships. Let's take it back for those
:11:31. > :11:34.people who do want to go to university and thinks the cause for
:11:35. > :11:38.them is in Bristol or Oxford or Cambridge or London, wherever. Are
:11:39. > :11:43.you saying there would be no help for those people? It would be
:11:44. > :11:48.fantastic to help them but the reality is if we could push it on
:11:49. > :11:52.from a Westminster perspective of free education and it is something
:11:53. > :11:58.we stood for from the general election. You need that taxed to
:11:59. > :12:01.protect it. We are keeping the focus in Welsh universities which is
:12:02. > :12:06.easier to maintain if we have more of a green voice and more
:12:07. > :12:11.opportunity to campaign for that. We are aware we are and there are
:12:12. > :12:13.tuition fees. Labour said they will be three and a half thousand
:12:14. > :12:18.wherever you want to study in the UK. I don't get a sense of what you
:12:19. > :12:23.are proposing. Is it that there will be no fees for students in Wales for
:12:24. > :12:29.Welsh students and elsewhere, you are on your own? In our pledges for
:12:30. > :12:33.the future of Wales being part of that, we want to give the free
:12:34. > :12:39.education out there but the reality is we can't do that in a five-year
:12:40. > :12:43.process so although there are those ambitions, we realise the
:12:44. > :12:47.constraints of not being able to invest in that part. It is a future
:12:48. > :12:51.ambition but this is about what we can achieve in the first five years.
:12:52. > :12:59.For Welsh students studying in Wales, there won't be tuition fees?
:13:00. > :13:07.S transitioning to zero, yes. What is the cost of that? We manifesto is
:13:08. > :13:10.out on Tuesday and we are promoting education for all, not just
:13:11. > :13:15.universities but for everybody so that is further education and
:13:16. > :13:22.apprenticeships. And the reality is that when the Greens in the Welsh
:13:23. > :13:27.assembly, maybe a handful of greens, so we will have a key role in
:13:28. > :13:32.shaking up the Senate and holding people to account and so that is
:13:33. > :13:38.going to be a key aspect. Who do you want to have scrutinising? Do you
:13:39. > :13:40.want that to be Tories and Ukip or do you want it to be the Greens?
:13:41. > :13:44.That's it for this week, but don't forget you can see
:13:45. > :13:47.the Welsh party leaders being questioned in a series of "Ask
:13:48. > :13:52.the Leader" programmes all next week, beginning tomorrow night
:13:53. > :13:53.Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.