:00:38. > :00:45.comparing the mission of the European Union with
:00:46. > :00:48.what Hitler was trying to achieve - has the Leave campaign's self-styled
:00:49. > :00:54.Churchillian attack dog gone too far?
:00:55. > :00:56.He says leaving the European Union
:00:57. > :00:58.will improve the lives of the "have nots" -
:00:59. > :01:01.but is the man who presided over billions of pounds of welfare
:01:02. > :01:03.cuts really on the side of working people?
:01:04. > :01:07.Reducing the powers of the House of Lords
:01:08. > :01:10.would not be acceptable, says the woman charged with keeping order
:01:11. > :01:12.in the upper house - but with 60 government defeats
:01:13. > :01:19.Later in the programme: have their Lord and Ladyships
:01:20. > :01:22.As talks continue between Labour and Plaid over the deadlock
:01:23. > :01:36.in Cardiff Bay, what will both sides be looking for in an agreement?
:01:37. > :01:41.And with me - as always - three journalists who'd have been
:01:42. > :01:44.sure to win the Eurovision political punditry contest: Helen Lewis,
:01:45. > :01:46.Isabel Oakeshott and Amol Rajan who'll be tweeting throughout
:01:47. > :01:52.So earlier in the week the Prime Minister warned that
:01:53. > :01:54.leaving the EU could precipitate armed conflict in Europe.
:01:55. > :01:57.Today, Boris Johnson hits back, comparing the European Union
:01:58. > :02:00.to Hitler in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph:
:02:01. > :02:02."Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out,
:02:03. > :02:20.The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods."
:02:21. > :02:23.Boris goes on to say "The euro has become a means by which superior
:02:24. > :02:26.German productivity is able to gain an absolutely unbeatable advantage
:02:27. > :02:43.Could you organise an ordinance that British politicians should just shut
:02:44. > :02:50.up about Hitler? It is an interesting one, the campaign are
:02:51. > :02:56.getting quite grumpy, saying that he was not really talking about Hitler.
:02:57. > :03:00.Boris is to clever not to know that if you mention Napoleon and Hitler
:03:01. > :03:09.people will write headlines. He is a columnist and he knows this. It is
:03:10. > :03:17.bizarre. It was Sadiq Khan sitting at home thinking he was the only
:03:18. > :03:22.London mayor was not mentioned Hitler? The campaign has become
:03:23. > :03:29.quite personal, it is about David Cameron's relationship with them,
:03:30. > :03:39.and whether he has a hope of becoming leader. And as always like
:03:40. > :03:44.to make things personal. It does not surprisingly in the slightest that
:03:45. > :03:50.it is becoming more personal as the clock ticks towards the key date. On
:03:51. > :03:56.Boris Johnson's comments, absolutely agree with Helen but no good can
:03:57. > :04:00.come of a politician mentioning Hitler, but the reaction to the
:04:01. > :04:06.remarks has been rather hysterical. If anyone bothers reading the
:04:07. > :04:15.context... In the context. The Mac was an absolutely reasonable
:04:16. > :04:18.statement of historical fact. We should not get to a point where
:04:19. > :04:24.nobody can mention anything historical without it creating a
:04:25. > :04:30.ridiculous action. I don't think it will be arise if it helps them win
:04:31. > :04:38.votes. He fancies herself as an inherent to Winston Churchill, it
:04:39. > :04:45.was in store. In your dreams, if the copy had come in and you had seen
:04:46. > :04:51.the word logo might think you have a chance for a headline. Ever since
:04:52. > :05:03.the collapse of the Roman Empire there have been attempts to unify
:05:04. > :05:09.Europe. In a way, the Germans have that... There was a slight
:05:10. > :05:11.difference in having endless pragmatic committees and ruling
:05:12. > :05:17.tanks and to Poland. By different means is quite different. He was
:05:18. > :05:23.arguing it was an attempt to unify Europe, it is bundled together
:05:24. > :05:32.different ideas. It is a bit of a stretch. But overstretch! I think
:05:33. > :05:42.there was a real danger... And what is the European Union, parable?
:05:43. > :05:46.People support Brexit would say it was an attempt to build a European
:05:47. > :05:54.super structure without a Democratic base. Democratic nations. It is
:05:55. > :05:57.completely reasonable. Ireland begins to cover girl to make
:05:58. > :06:06.important arguments about historical trends. Butler was Fromer remark.
:06:07. > :06:25.He only mentioned Napoleon. Maybe he should have mentioned other leaders.
:06:26. > :06:31.What do you make of the polls, showing neck and neck but they are
:06:32. > :06:40.so far ahead in the economic argument, and that is why we will
:06:41. > :06:46.win. They always hoped that. The evidence is that people put the
:06:47. > :06:52.economy as the highest concern. What the Leave campaign is trying to do,
:06:53. > :06:58.we've seen this from Nigel Farage, make the point that this is not just
:06:59. > :07:06.about GDP, a few extra pounds in your pocket. The Leave campaign will
:07:07. > :07:13.be hoping to highlight the question of what this means for society.
:07:14. > :07:15.Now - would leaving the European Union be good
:07:16. > :07:17.for the poor and disadvantaged in Britain?
:07:18. > :07:19.That's the case that's being made by the former Work
:07:20. > :07:21.and Pension Secretary Iain Duncan Smith.
:07:22. > :07:23.I will be talking to him in a moment.
:07:24. > :07:26.But first let's hear the warnings earlier this week about
:07:27. > :07:27.the short-term impact of Brexit on the economy
:07:28. > :07:35.from the Governor Bank of England, Mark Carney.
:07:36. > :07:38.A vote to leave the European Union could have material economic effects
:07:39. > :07:41.on the exchange rate, on demand, and on the economy's
:07:42. > :07:46.So, this combination of influences on demand,
:07:47. > :07:49.supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower
:07:50. > :08:01.path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation
:08:02. > :08:03.than in the central projections set out in today's
:08:04. > :08:19.Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. You've claimed that leaving the EU
:08:20. > :08:26.would be good for the have nots but the Governor of the Bank of England
:08:27. > :08:29.says it could lead to recession, inflation, unemployment. That could
:08:30. > :08:34.be bad. If all the predictions were right. Every single one of these
:08:35. > :08:37.predictions is done by groups of people who've got most of their
:08:38. > :08:48.predictions wrong. The point I would make to you, the Treasury prediction
:08:49. > :08:53.and the IMS prediction all show that if Britain left the EU the economy
:08:54. > :09:00.would grow. Their argument is it would not grow as fast but how you
:09:01. > :09:13.can predict a 0.6% variation is beyond me. He was the point I really
:09:14. > :09:18.believe about the bank, which is where I find this very back. I think
:09:19. > :09:23.the bank, the governor has strayed into an expression of a simple,
:09:24. > :09:27.personal prediction. I don't think it is actually possible for you to
:09:28. > :09:32.say with any absolute accuracy that that will happen. In a sense, when
:09:33. > :09:36.you listen to what he said, he started to nuance about the idea, he
:09:37. > :09:40.was not seeing it actually would be comic he said he thought it could be
:09:41. > :09:45.about that. Here is my point about the independence of the Bank of
:09:46. > :09:49.England. Section ten of the 1998 act makes it very clear that if he is to
:09:50. > :09:55.talk about monetary policies, for which he has independence, he has to
:09:56. > :10:02.be open, impartial and all things must be available. Last year, in
:10:03. > :10:06.2015, when he spoke about the threat to the British economy, he made the
:10:07. > :10:12.point which Mervyn King has made that the euro instability and the
:10:13. > :10:17.crash has been very damaging to the British economy and will be even
:10:18. > :10:20.more damaging as it goes on. Notice that when he came out on Thursday he
:10:21. > :10:29.said nothing about the overall problems if we remained in. If
:10:30. > :10:33.you're going to be impartial then you had damned well better say
:10:34. > :10:39.something about the alternative case and the threats of remaining are
:10:40. > :10:45.very clear. Mervyn King said there is a crisis going on and he does not
:10:46. > :10:54.see an end to it. Why don't we hear from him about that? Has he breached
:10:55. > :11:02.his obligations as Governor of the Bank of England? I believe that he
:11:03. > :11:09.has. Should he resign? I think he ought to be asked why he has not
:11:10. > :11:15.brought out both sides of the issue. He used to work for Goldman Sachs.
:11:16. > :11:25.They are running through this, funding the campaign, he has been
:11:26. > :11:29.very clear on it. You bring out Goldman Sachs, lack of impartiality,
:11:30. > :11:35.you think he is not keeping his remit, should he resign? I think he
:11:36. > :11:42.needs to answer about this one simple charge. I would like to see
:11:43. > :11:48.the e-mail exchange over this issue, the telephone conversation minutes,
:11:49. > :11:51.to see whether the Treasury has had any involvement in this process
:11:52. > :11:57.whatsoever, what worries me slightly about what is going on, the Bank of
:11:58. > :12:03.Scotland comes out on Thursday and then suddenly the head of the IMF
:12:04. > :12:07.comes out on Friday with a similar prediction. These are the same
:12:08. > :12:13.people that were telling us all that the UK is too small to leave and too
:12:14. > :12:17.insignificant. Now we are so insignificant that we are plunging
:12:18. > :12:27.the world into an economic crash. Are we saying this was an accident?
:12:28. > :12:35.The governor did not call? Let me ask you this, we know what made...
:12:36. > :12:43.Are you saying they are colluding? I wonder. Do you have any evidence?
:12:44. > :12:46.Suddenly on Wednesday and Thursday, you have reports coming out, do you
:12:47. > :12:52.think they spoke to each other about what they are doing? I wonder about
:12:53. > :13:00.that. The Chancellor is supporting the governor, he then stands behind
:13:01. > :13:09.Christine Lagarde. We know that they are players in this. The IMF always
:13:10. > :13:13.works with them. We know which major economic authorities you don't like.
:13:14. > :13:18.The Treasury, the IMF, the Bank of England, the OECD, which major
:13:19. > :13:22.economic authorities do you rate? There have been some good reports
:13:23. > :13:27.out, there are a number of good economists, lots of others from the
:13:28. > :13:32.city who have produced a report which got very little coverage about
:13:33. > :13:37.the prospect... Any major economic apologies? Yes but when they have
:13:38. > :13:43.come out with these reports they have said the UK would continue to
:13:44. > :13:46.grow. Not as quickly. Not as quickly. My point is if you're going
:13:47. > :13:52.to be balanced you need to constantly reference that point and
:13:53. > :13:55.if they want to say that there is a possibility this could lead to a
:13:56. > :14:02.problem he must also point out that if we remain there is a possibility
:14:03. > :14:07.that we will be damaged by this. You made that .3 times. Let me ask you,
:14:08. > :14:12.can you name a major economic authority on your side of the
:14:13. > :14:20.argument? I would not expect one to be on our side. So you have none? It
:14:21. > :14:24.would be completely unusual for all these institutions not to want to
:14:25. > :14:30.act the status quo. All these institutions said there was no
:14:31. > :14:38.problem in 2007 and then one year later we hit the buffers and the
:14:39. > :14:42.economy went down. None of them predicted it. Including the
:14:43. > :14:49.Conservatives. None of them have apologised for their failure.
:14:50. > :14:57.I want to show you this chart. This shows our balance of payments, our
:14:58. > :15:02.deficit. It is the difference between our exports and imports. We
:15:03. > :15:06.import a lot more than we export in goods and services. It has
:15:07. > :15:12.continually got worse under your government. This deficit, which is
:15:13. > :15:20.multi-billion, is financed by foreigners who buy our sterling as I
:15:21. > :15:23.to make up the gap. If Brexit create a falling pound, why would the
:15:24. > :15:28.foreigners continue to pay for our deficit? If the economy didn't
:15:29. > :15:32.perform, why would be, but if you look at all those who predicted
:15:33. > :15:37.where we would be now, they all said the threat of Brexit would actually
:15:38. > :15:41.bring the pound crashing. The pound is now rising back up, close to
:15:42. > :15:48.where it was when we started this campaign. 10% on last November. We
:15:49. > :15:53.had this deficit, it is financed by foreigners. If they lose confidence
:15:54. > :15:59.in this country, confidence in Stirling, how do we pay for this? We
:16:00. > :16:03.have to make sure we run the economy in a way that they have confidence
:16:04. > :16:07.in it, we have to get some of those regulations down, we have to make
:16:08. > :16:12.British industry more competitive. We have to have a better plan to get
:16:13. > :16:16.industry working again. That would be in the long term, this could be a
:16:17. > :16:22.short-term problem that could hit in the summer. If it results leaving in
:16:23. > :16:25.an uncontrolled, plummeting sterling, and the foreigners because
:16:26. > :16:29.of the uncertainty and sterling going down are saying we are not
:16:30. > :16:36.going to continue to finance it, the bank would have to raise interest
:16:37. > :16:39.rates, wouldn't it? If that was the circumstance, yes, but it is what
:16:40. > :16:48.you plan to do. Why are they investing in what we are doing at
:16:49. > :16:51.the moment? They buy the bonds because they believe the Government
:16:52. > :16:56.has a long-term plan to get the deficit down and reduce borrowing.
:16:57. > :17:01.Therefore they believe the UK is a good investment and running a trade
:17:02. > :17:08.surplus with the rest of the world. We are running a huge deficit. Yes,
:17:09. > :17:12.but we are running a trade surplus. If they need to finance this
:17:13. > :17:19.deficit, and it is not the budget deficit, it is how the foreigners by
:17:20. > :17:24.our assets in order to help us run this deficit. If interest rate did
:17:25. > :17:28.rise, it follows that mortgage rates could rise substantially. Yes but
:17:29. > :17:34.the alternative could be the same, in other words if they believe what
:17:35. > :17:38.we are doing is right for the economy they are prepared to back
:17:39. > :17:41.it, which means you wouldn't have rising interest rates. All of this
:17:42. > :17:48.is speculation because we don't know. Boris Johnson has admitted
:17:49. > :17:56.that after Brexit there would be a Nike tick, that he believes the
:17:57. > :18:01.economy would take a hit, but it would recover strongly. Do you
:18:02. > :18:05.believe that? Possibly but this is speculation about something nobody
:18:06. > :18:10.knows. There has been speculation about forecast in these economies,
:18:11. > :18:14.most of them are wrong because people are unable to tell us about
:18:15. > :18:19.what they think about our prospects afterwards. If we vote to leave, we
:18:20. > :18:24.are already able to show we can get our money back in due course and we
:18:25. > :18:27.are able to start planning our own economy so we are able to get the
:18:28. > :18:33.kind of deals we need. That shows you have a plan that works. You
:18:34. > :18:39.could offer short-term crisis in the interim, couldn't you? They are
:18:40. > :18:43.worried whether their mortgage will have risen by August or September of
:18:44. > :18:50.this year. If that were to happen but the word is if. This is pure
:18:51. > :18:54.speculation. The point I am making is that the reality is it may go in
:18:55. > :19:01.the opposite direction. Nobody can say that. The EU guarantees a number
:19:02. > :19:07.of social protections for workers, covering things like equal pay,
:19:08. > :19:12.working time, maternity pay. Can you pledged to fight to maintain all of
:19:13. > :19:15.these protections if we leave? All of these were accepted by the
:19:16. > :19:19.Conservative government and I believe strongly then need to be
:19:20. > :19:25.protections for workers. All of these things in a democracy are
:19:26. > :19:29.debated but the British government have actually themselves instituted
:19:30. > :19:33.protections for workers. So would you fight to keep the protections
:19:34. > :19:41.they currently have under EU guarantees? As it stands, yes. Why
:19:42. > :19:47.should people trust you because you opposed the Web Time directive in
:19:48. > :19:50.1996, and voted against the minimum wage in 1997. Why would they have
:19:51. > :19:56.not looked to you for this social protection? Because rather than
:19:57. > :20:02.forecast ahead, look back at what has happened to them. The
:20:03. > :20:06.immigration has damaged them. I'm simply saying what has happened,
:20:07. > :20:11.therefore my argument has been, and you have known that over a long
:20:12. > :20:14.time, over nine years I have argued this process has been most damaging
:20:15. > :20:22.to the people at the low skilled end. That is the migration issue, it
:20:23. > :20:27.may well be true. I'm asking you why should people trust you on these EU
:20:28. > :20:30.social protections that they would remain if we came out since you
:20:31. > :20:37.voted against them when they were being proposed? The working Time
:20:38. > :20:42.directive gave little or no flexibility at the time. It has been
:20:43. > :20:46.in place and we had to work with it. You protect the workforce but you
:20:47. > :20:51.make sure the competition that they face in terms of their jobs is
:20:52. > :20:55.actually fair competition, not unfair competition. What has
:20:56. > :20:59.happened, as you saw on Thursday with the national insurance numbers,
:21:00. > :21:05.is a very high proportion of people coming in in under 52 weeks here who
:21:06. > :21:13.have no commitment to the UK often staying in bed sits, compete on the
:21:14. > :21:16.low salary end of life. Is the working Time directive, which
:21:17. > :21:23.guarantees the hours people work in a week and proper breaks, is that
:21:24. > :21:27.safe after Brexit or not? UK law would enshrine what we think is best
:21:28. > :21:31.for protection of workforce and that is right. A democratic government
:21:32. > :21:37.will decide on what it thinks is right. That is possible for Labour
:21:38. > :21:43.or Conservative. I believe it is right to have it, the question is
:21:44. > :21:47.how flexible... People watching this will not be reassured by this. I
:21:48. > :21:54.will stick to the agreements we have. You point your fist in the
:21:55. > :21:59.Commons when the Chancellor announced the new national living
:22:00. > :22:05.wage, now you say it is a magnet for migrants, what changed? I said it is
:22:06. > :22:09.a good people for people wanting to come and work here because they will
:22:10. > :22:14.get a higher wage. I am wholly in favour of a rise to the minimum wage
:22:15. > :22:18.because I believe that over time what happens to businesses is they
:22:19. > :22:25.have got around paying lower wages... Would you still be in
:22:26. > :22:31.favour of it if we stayed in the EU? Yes, because it is the best way you
:22:32. > :22:34.can drive the wages up but if we stay in the EU it will become a
:22:35. > :22:40.magnet for people to come in here and it will lead to huge problems.
:22:41. > :22:45.The point I made on Tuesday this week was that have we have seen
:22:46. > :22:50.already lots of people from the EU tend to come in. The vast majority
:22:51. > :22:55.of people coming from the European Union into the UK, they tend to be
:22:56. > :22:59.low skills, they tend to be ones taking a high proportion of those
:23:00. > :23:04.low skilled jobs. They have taken them at lesser salary and driven it
:23:05. > :23:09.down. The overall average wage will still be low for those on low
:23:10. > :23:14.skills. You have brought up migration several times in this
:23:15. > :23:18.interview, isn't the blunt truth, because I was asking about the
:23:19. > :23:25.economics, you are losing the economic arguments, the polls show
:23:26. > :23:36.that, you are more dependent on scaring people. John Major says:
:23:37. > :23:47.What do you say? Rubbish. Very simple, he is talking nonsense. He
:23:48. > :23:51.said only a few years ago that there was a real issue over immigration.
:23:52. > :23:57.The Government had a target to get tens of thousands, the limit down to
:23:58. > :24:01.tens of thousands, we are not achieving that. We talked about it
:24:02. > :24:06.in the run-up to the election. The Prime Minister himself made a strong
:24:07. > :24:09.commitment that we would ensure our borders were protected against
:24:10. > :24:12.people coming to be here so it is nonsense because we are not raising
:24:13. > :24:16.this is an issue because we are trying to win the referendum. Most
:24:17. > :24:22.people in the country believes there is an issue about the open border
:24:23. > :24:32.with the European Union. Why is it demagoguery, why is it extremism to
:24:33. > :24:34.speak for British people who feel like their views are being tossed
:24:35. > :24:37.aside? If you don't do it, the extreme parties get onto it. Was it
:24:38. > :24:44.wise Boris Johnson to compare the EU's ambitions? I thought it was a
:24:45. > :24:52.good article because he spoke about this nonsensical... Was it wise to
:24:53. > :24:57.compare it with Hitler? Do you think Hitler's efforts to unify Europe are
:24:58. > :25:04.the same as the European Union's efforts? I think the whole process
:25:05. > :25:10.of trying to drive Europe together by force or democracy ultimately
:25:11. > :25:13.makes problems. Isn't this referendum getting vaguely absurd?
:25:14. > :25:19.We have the Prime Minister dangling the thought of world War three if we
:25:20. > :25:22.leave, and on your side we have Boris Johnson saying Hitler and the
:25:23. > :25:28.European Union are on the same script. It is both nonsense and you
:25:29. > :25:35.know that. All he is doing in the interview is talking about the trend
:25:36. > :25:42.towards the idea, and he's using historical parallels to explain it.
:25:43. > :25:46.You go through this great idea that somehow there is a thing called
:25:47. > :25:50.greater Europe. Whether or not you like the linguistics of this, my
:25:51. > :25:57.point remains the same. If you vote to remain on the 23rd, you are
:25:58. > :26:04.voting, the 12 residents said it clear that they intend to deepen...
:26:05. > :26:11.The five presidents. The five presidents rather. David Cameron and
:26:12. > :26:16.George Osborne won't debate other Tory ministers during the
:26:17. > :26:22.referendum, are they concerned about party unity or just running scared?
:26:23. > :26:26.You will have to ask them. My view about it is that it is right to have
:26:27. > :26:31.a proper debate and by not opening that debate the British public will
:26:32. > :26:34.be left to wonder why they were not allowed to see the two opposing
:26:35. > :26:41.sides of the argument from the leading figures. You would debate
:26:42. > :26:44.the Prime Minister? Yes, we need to get these things straight
:26:45. > :26:48.face-to-face. After all, if this were an election would be Remain
:26:49. > :26:54.side be allowed to say we won't debate Ed Miliband fustian might
:26:55. > :26:58.know, they cannot do that. There are two side to this argument, if two
:26:59. > :27:06.sides have to debate it that is right and proper. It should be down
:27:07. > :27:09.to impartiality that we have two sides, the two sets of leaders. Iain
:27:10. > :27:13.Duncan Smith, thank you. Now, the Commons are elected,
:27:14. > :27:16.the House of Lords are not and is supposed to be
:27:17. > :27:18.a "revising chamber". But have their lord and ladyships
:27:19. > :27:20.been overstepping the mark? Over the the past year,
:27:21. > :27:22.they've inflicted 60 defeats on a Government that's now poised
:27:23. > :27:25.to clip the Lord's wings - reducing their power
:27:26. > :27:27.to block changes in the law. But in an exclusive interview before
:27:28. > :27:30.she steps down as the speaker of the House of Lords in the summer,
:27:31. > :27:33.Baroness D'Souza has told us that the powers of the Lords
:27:34. > :27:35.should not be curtailed. It's very obvious why
:27:36. > :27:44.they are called the crossbenchers, My guide knows this place pretty
:27:45. > :27:51.well, how it works, who's who. Since 2011, she's been Lord Speaker,
:27:52. > :27:53.a role which involves overseeing proceedings here,
:27:54. > :27:55.representing the Lords at home and abroad, and sitting
:27:56. > :28:01.on a sack of wool. But the business in here over
:28:02. > :28:08.which Baroness D'Souza presides has come under increasing criticism
:28:09. > :28:12.from the Government. 247 members of the House of Lords
:28:13. > :28:15.sit as Conservatives peers, making the governing party
:28:16. > :28:17.a significant minority of the 807 members eligible to take
:28:18. > :28:24.part in the Upper House. The Government has faced 60 defeats
:28:25. > :28:28.in the House of Lords in the most The rate of defeats this time
:28:29. > :28:32.round is more than twice that Then, the Government was defeated
:28:33. > :28:38.in less than a quarter of votes compared to more
:28:39. > :28:42.than half in the present one. Now there's a sense that the Lords
:28:43. > :28:45.are too rebellious, they have been too rebellious over the last few
:28:46. > :28:48.years and essentially the Lords You know, all governments
:28:49. > :28:52.and all parliamentarians, or at least House of Commons,
:28:53. > :28:59.always feel that the House of Lords is a place that thwarts them
:29:00. > :29:02.in one way or another. And they're right, they do,
:29:03. > :29:07.but that is in the nature They have all the power
:29:08. > :29:15.and rightly so. I still think it's right
:29:16. > :29:18.that the Lords should be free to scrutinise and to question
:29:19. > :29:21.and to hold the Government to account, and to send back
:29:22. > :29:25.legislation which it feels is not adequate, either in terms
:29:26. > :29:30.of its clarity or because perhaps it infringes from time to time
:29:31. > :29:32.individual liberties And that's exactly what happened
:29:33. > :29:39.last October. The House of Lords effectively
:29:40. > :29:41.blocked the Government's proposed changes to tax credits,
:29:42. > :29:44.a massive blow to George Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords
:29:45. > :29:51.have voted down a matter passed by the elected House of Commons,
:29:52. > :29:54.that raises constitutional issues and David Cameron and I are clear
:29:55. > :29:58.they will need to be dealt with. The way they dealt with it was to
:29:59. > :30:01.ask Lord Strathclyde He concluded peers should
:30:02. > :30:05.lose their absolute veto over detailed laws known as secondary
:30:06. > :30:09.legislation, and instead be allowed only to send it back
:30:10. > :30:12.to the Commons to think again. There's going to be a lively debate
:30:13. > :30:16.about this in the House of Lords and I think that there will be a lot
:30:17. > :30:20.of views expressed and obviously you would expect the Lords
:30:21. > :30:22.to want to retain their power to scrutinise their power,
:30:23. > :30:26.their privilege. If you start curtailing or eroding
:30:27. > :30:31.or limiting the power of the Lords to do its job,
:30:32. > :30:35.there is a question There is another question,
:30:36. > :30:44.too, over the sheer number Baroness D'Souza told me
:30:45. > :30:48.she would be pushing for a Lords motion in the new session,
:30:49. > :30:51.she says the House of Lords should not be larger than the Commons,
:30:52. > :30:53.suggesting the number of peers At least 20% of them should be
:30:54. > :30:58.independents or crossbenchers, and no one party should
:30:59. > :31:01.have a political majority. She said all of that can
:31:02. > :31:04.be achieved by 2020. So, the size is making
:31:05. > :31:06.it inefficient? It does have an impact unfortunately
:31:07. > :31:17.on the role of the House of Lords in holding the Government
:31:18. > :31:20.to account. It's very difficult if you're
:31:21. > :31:22.limited to sort of say, in timed debates, a minute or two
:31:23. > :31:25.minutes to speak, to develop a sustained argument
:31:26. > :31:27.which will convince your fellow peers but also the Government
:31:28. > :31:30.of what it is you are The traditional pomp and ceremony
:31:31. > :31:34.of the Lords is well known but its relationship
:31:35. > :31:36.with the Commons and exactly what role it can play in the future
:31:37. > :31:43.is far more uncertain. And the man who was charged
:31:44. > :31:45.by the Government to review the Lord's powers, Tam Strathclyde,
:31:46. > :31:55.joins us now from Oxfordshire. Welcome to the programme. Nice to
:31:56. > :32:02.see the sun is shining rate you are. We've just heard, what would be the
:32:03. > :32:10.point of the Lloyds if the powers are watered down as your review
:32:11. > :32:13.proposes. What do you say to her? There is no suggestion and no
:32:14. > :32:18.recommendation by anybody in government to fundamentally change
:32:19. > :32:26.the powers of the House of Lords. I made the most mild and humble
:32:27. > :32:30.recommendation about process, where frankly most of us had understood
:32:31. > :32:37.that the customs and conventions that had been built up would stick.
:32:38. > :32:42.Last October, they broke down, as a result there is no consensus and
:32:43. > :32:56.agreement on what those powers could be. I propose a new power to be able
:32:57. > :33:04.to reject and ask. What is interesting is every school child
:33:05. > :33:09.knows that the purpose of the House of Lords is to scrutinise but not to
:33:10. > :33:15.block. What happened was the House of Lords using a veto and given it
:33:16. > :33:22.is unelected, I don't think that power should ever be used. Is the
:33:23. > :33:25.government going to implement your recommendations? Since I reported
:33:26. > :33:31.before Christmas there have been four further reports, three in the
:33:32. > :33:37.House of Lords and one in the House of Commons, commenting on this. I
:33:38. > :33:42.think what the government will want to do is look carefully at these
:33:43. > :33:45.reports before responding. I don't think there needs to be a rush to
:33:46. > :33:51.legislation, and there may well be an attempt to get an agreement
:33:52. > :33:54.between the parties in the House of Lords, between the two Houses of
:33:55. > :34:01.Parliament. But if that consensus cannot be reached, I think the
:34:02. > :34:07.government will have no option but to legislate on this matter. Your
:34:08. > :34:10.government has had 60 defeats at the hands of the Lords. You wonder
:34:11. > :34:15.whether the conservative tune has changed because it was Tory peers
:34:16. > :34:20.inflicting defeat on Labour governments. Now you are getting a
:34:21. > :34:26.taste of your own historic medicine, you just don't like it. I was Leader
:34:27. > :34:44.of the Opposition for most of those years, particularly after the end of
:34:45. > :34:48.the last century. We did defeat the government regularly on primary
:34:49. > :34:52.legislation, not secondary legislation. What was interesting in
:34:53. > :34:57.your package is the government has been defeated in the House of Lords
:34:58. > :35:02.many more times than it did in the first Parliament of Tony Blair's
:35:03. > :35:07.government. Over half of all the votes in the House of Lords are
:35:08. > :35:11.defeated. This is not revision and scrutiny, this is not complementing
:35:12. > :35:15.the work of the House of Commons, this is an aggressive political
:35:16. > :35:20.statement why the other political parties. Is it really? This is a
:35:21. > :35:25.government which increasingly brings forward ill thought out ideas which
:35:26. > :35:30.it has not planned in advance, not without consultation, and is forced
:35:31. > :35:36.into U-turns. There has been a series of them. That is why you need
:35:37. > :35:43.a second chamber, to do proper scrutiny. I am the greatest defender
:35:44. > :35:48.of the second chamber and indeed, a Conservative Party that fully
:35:49. > :35:54.understands the central tenets of the Constitution, the balance
:35:55. > :36:00.between the houses, but what we've seen in the last 12 months, and
:36:01. > :36:02.remember, this is the first 12 months of a new conservative
:36:03. > :36:08.administration, people who were elected to government, scarcely one
:36:09. > :36:13.year ago, and what we've seen in the House of Lords are blocking tactics,
:36:14. > :36:18.using vetoes rather than working with the House of Commons in order
:36:19. > :36:25.to improve that legislation which you rightly criticise. Are you a
:36:26. > :36:28.supporter of the way that governments have bloated the House
:36:29. > :36:35.of Lords? There are over 800 active peers. The US Senate needs 100 and
:36:36. > :36:43.it has real power. You've not got much power and those over 800 of
:36:44. > :36:47.you. Is that sensible? When Mr Blair and his friends throughout the
:36:48. > :36:50.hereditary peers in the 1990s I did argue that there was an inevitable
:36:51. > :36:55.consequence that prime ministers would try to increase their own
:36:56. > :37:05.numbers in the house. What's interesting about Mr Cameron is he
:37:06. > :37:12.has created far more Labour peers. Wide of the need to be 800 of you?
:37:13. > :37:19.You don't. -- why does there need to be 800. But those who want to reduce
:37:20. > :37:24.it to 500 should say how they plan to do that. I would prefer either
:37:25. > :37:25.people to be involved in the decision and they should be directly
:37:26. > :37:28.elected. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:29. > :37:30.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:31. > :37:33.in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to
:37:34. > :37:46.the Sunday Politics Wales. Well, we expected to
:37:47. > :37:48.have a First Minister by today, After a week of high drama
:37:49. > :37:54.in Cardiff Bay, Plaid and Labour are still talking about how to break
:37:55. > :37:57.the deadlock over who'll be Here's how the plenary
:37:58. > :38:05.session ended. TRANSLATION: The result of the vote
:38:06. > :38:10.for nomination as First Minister was Carwyn Jones, 29,
:38:11. > :38:16.Leanne Wood, 29. and following the fact
:38:17. > :38:18.that there is no majority, I therefore adjourned
:38:19. > :38:23.the remainder of this setting for the time being and I therefore
:38:24. > :38:31.close this meeting. A little earlier I spoke
:38:32. > :38:36.to the former Plaid leader Lord Wigley and asked him
:38:37. > :38:39.if it was anything more than a shot I think an effective democracy needs
:38:40. > :38:43.a strong leadership from government but it also needs a strong
:38:44. > :38:46.opposition and I think that's what came through loud
:38:47. > :38:47.and clear from that. To the extent that it was a shot
:38:48. > :38:51.across the bows then there is 30 is a very different number from
:38:52. > :38:56.29 and Carwyn Jones has to live with a minority government
:38:57. > :38:58.in the circumstances and the programme has to be one
:38:59. > :39:01.that he can take through his party but also through
:39:02. > :39:03.the Assembly if he is going You have mentioned a couple of them
:39:04. > :39:08.there, the black route of the M4 and some of the WDA
:39:09. > :39:12.sort of body, what would be your red lines in terms
:39:13. > :39:15.of the negotiations now? No, I'm not in a position
:39:16. > :39:19.to give my red lines because I don't know what the flexibilities
:39:20. > :39:24.in the negotiations are. Definitely has to be some
:39:25. > :39:26.meeting of minds. No party can get everything
:39:27. > :39:29.its own way and no doubt the Labour government
:39:30. > :39:31.will be looking to see if they can carry
:39:32. > :39:32.the Conservatives on some issues and therefore may not
:39:33. > :39:36.be just looking in one direction. Heaven forbid that they are looking
:39:37. > :39:38.in the direction Carry the Conservatives,
:39:39. > :39:44.Dafydd Wigley says! We'll hear from Labour in a few
:39:45. > :39:50.minutes, but now the man who wants The Conservative leader
:39:51. > :40:04.Andrew RT Davies. How close in all honesty now were
:40:05. > :40:07.you or was Wales to being led by Leanne Wood and supported by the
:40:08. > :40:12.Conservatives last week? Well, I need to correct you. While we may
:40:13. > :40:17.have voted on Wednesday, it was making the point that Labour does
:40:18. > :40:21.not have a majority so frankly you could have put Bagpuss up only would
:40:22. > :40:25.have voted for him. So it was a stunt? I had a conversation with
:40:26. > :40:32.Carwyn Jones on Tuesday and face-to-face on Wednesday talking to
:40:33. > :40:35.various issues. I can't understand why Labour allowed themselves to
:40:36. > :40:38.walk into this elephant trap. It was well-known which way the vote would
:40:39. > :40:44.go that afternoon and so to think that Plaid Cymru held them up is a
:40:45. > :40:47.bit far off the mark. Is maybe the gaze that they were expecting a
:40:48. > :40:53.bloody nose so they might as well get it out of the way. I want to
:40:54. > :40:56.look at, was there ever a serious appetite with you and Plaid Cymru to
:40:57. > :41:02.do anything other than just the shot across the bow is? B known if they
:41:03. > :41:07.expected to get a bloody nose, that was far from the case. Carwyn Jones
:41:08. > :41:10.stop people going forward for the providing officers roles which was
:41:11. > :41:15.surprise for me because I've heard they were not whipping nominations.
:41:16. > :41:20.But we are not being told what got rid of was. It's in important thing
:41:21. > :41:28.that the black groups could be sacrificed and business development
:41:29. > :41:32.-- black roots. Carwyn Jones set is little credibility against doing and
:41:33. > :41:35.is now were looking that he might jettison all of that? There are
:41:36. > :41:40.serious issues that Labour members need to ask over the leadership and
:41:41. > :41:43.how they found themselves in this predicament is because... But what
:41:44. > :41:50.is wrong with talking to opposition parties? Nothing. They have to do a
:41:51. > :41:56.deal with someone else. You just scorned because it is with Labour
:41:57. > :42:02.are not the Conservatives? Lake-mac 's grub Mac there is a golden period
:42:03. > :42:05.in every parliament and Assembly, the first few months when consensus
:42:06. > :42:08.can be reached especially of structural issues that need to be
:42:09. > :42:14.addressed that don't necessarily restrict themselves to one party. I
:42:15. > :42:17.have made the case that we have had conversations with Plaid Cymru and I
:42:18. > :42:20.had conversations with Carwyn Jones but regrettably, there was a strut
:42:21. > :42:25.about the Labour Party that believes they had a majority and they could
:42:26. > :42:33.do what they want. What you are asking from Carwyn Jones? I cannot
:42:34. > :42:37.go through on TV... Go on, just between us. Those discussions were
:42:38. > :42:41.happening and therefore the Labour leadership and the advisers allowed
:42:42. > :42:47.the party to walk into this elephant trap. How serious were your
:42:48. > :42:52.discussions? well, if i was a labour backbencher i would be very
:42:53. > :42:56.concerned. you can set things up with labour as much as you want but
:42:57. > :43:01.i want to talk about what you were asking for from carwyn jones? how
:43:02. > :43:05.serious were those discussion? there is a golden opportunity in the first
:43:06. > :43:10.12 or 18 months in any parliament to talk about some of the big issues
:43:11. > :43:14.that need dealt with. we know labour do not have a majority. i have said
:43:15. > :43:21.time and time again that i would say my party are grown-up enough to
:43:22. > :43:25.recognise that not one party has the majority that we face. At this
:43:26. > :43:29.juncture, we could be reaching out, we could be having discussions that
:43:30. > :43:32.did take place and yet the elephant trap was what's into by the
:43:33. > :43:37.governing party and Lenny labour members were left in the lurch. Do
:43:38. > :43:41.you think the game is up now in terms of any involvement for your
:43:42. > :43:44.party? Is it just going to be Plaid Cymru and Labour are cooperating on
:43:45. > :43:49.a programme of government or do you think there is still room for input
:43:50. > :43:55.focus ever to? My door is always open. We are pragmatic enough to
:43:56. > :43:59.know that not one party has all the answers. I'm not sure why Labour
:44:00. > :44:03.would think that Plaid Cymru have necessarily gone into a coalition
:44:04. > :44:07.with them and that would be there as their problems as they have 11
:44:08. > :44:12.votes. There is no reason for Labour not to renominate their cans at this
:44:13. > :44:20.week and I keep hearing logjam besought by the agreement from Plaid
:44:21. > :44:24.Cymru and Labour. Leanne Jones used to make the point, the difference is
:44:25. > :44:28.there is not a Lib Dem group any more and so that bankable vote for
:44:29. > :44:32.the Labour Party has gone and ultimately there are no opposition
:44:33. > :44:38.parties that first they will talk and discuss and ultimately will fall
:44:39. > :44:43.together. So you have shot a Leanne Wood's Fox because you will not fold
:44:44. > :44:47.with her next week so calm and walks in. I use saying that they don't
:44:48. > :44:52.want to discuss and that you will support them? That is for the Labour
:44:53. > :44:57.Party to come to a conclusion over. I fail to see why there is a logjam
:44:58. > :45:03.in the system because ultimately if they log the nation comes forward,
:45:04. > :45:05.certainly we believe the leave it will be better with a different
:45:06. > :45:11.First Minister but there is an offer on the table and therefore we would
:45:12. > :45:14.abstain as we often do. We will wait to see what happens.
:45:15. > :45:16.The other big drama of the week - can you cope? -
:45:17. > :45:19.was Ukip voting for Neil Hamilton, not Nathan Gill
:45:20. > :45:22.One leading member has told this programme Ukip could be
:45:23. > :45:26.Others say Neil Hamilton ticks all the boxes of being a leader.
:45:27. > :45:35.Cemlyn Davies now on murky goings on in the corridors of power
:45:36. > :45:40.and corridor conversations in the Bay.
:45:41. > :45:46.Deals may or may not have been done, promises made or broken.
:45:47. > :45:50.On Tuesday, Ukip's seven AMs met to decide who would lead
:45:51. > :45:57.Nathan Gill, who remains the party's leader in Wales,
:45:58. > :45:59.was challenged for the position by Neil Hamilton and it was
:46:00. > :46:04.he who secured the crucial backing of South Wales West's AM
:46:05. > :46:10.Caroline Jones whom Mr Gill's camp had thought would support their man.
:46:11. > :46:16.It all led to this impromtu press conference held in a back corridor.
:46:17. > :46:28.Well, we have achieved an outcome by consensus.
:46:29. > :46:31.There are only seven of us so it wasn't difficult to do,
:46:32. > :46:38.And we've decided to put all past differences behind us,
:46:39. > :46:42.forget the lead up to the election campaign
:46:43. > :46:46.where there was a lot of personal animosity created.
:46:47. > :46:49.So says Neil Hamilton, but his victory has exposed
:46:50. > :46:52.a deep division within the party, one which Ukip had
:46:53. > :46:59.But by Wednesday, the split was clear for all to see
:47:00. > :47:03.in the Senedd Chamber as those AMs on Nathan Gill's side
:47:04. > :47:06.sat across the aisle from their colleagues
:47:07. > :47:12.I have spoken to a number of party members over the past few days,
:47:13. > :47:16.including senior figures within Ukip Wales and one,
:47:17. > :47:21.a supporter of Nathan Gill, told me the result on Tuesday wasn't what he
:47:22. > :47:28.wanted or expected and he doesn't see Neil Hamilton uniting the party.
:47:29. > :47:32.Another member who is also a supporter of Nathan Gill warned
:47:33. > :47:36.the Assembly group will have a rocky ride under Neil Hamilton
:47:37. > :47:39.whose ego, he said, has got the better of him.
:47:40. > :47:43.The same member said Neil Hamilton has a few sharpened knives
:47:44. > :47:50.James Peterson is chair of Ukip's Newport branch.
:47:51. > :47:54.The carpenter who has helped to renovate this concert venue is
:47:55. > :47:58.unhappy with the way Neil Hamilton has flexed his muscles.
:47:59. > :48:02.Ukip need to take a grasp on what they promised
:48:03. > :48:05.the Welsh people and what I think is reasonable
:48:06. > :48:09.to presume that Nathan Gill would be head of the party.
:48:10. > :48:12.You said Nathan Gill has taken the party forward in Wales.
:48:13. > :48:15.Are you concerned now that with Neil Hamilton as group
:48:16. > :48:19.leader in the Assembly you could could go backwards here?
:48:20. > :48:26.Ukip have made significant gains over the past few years
:48:27. > :48:31.and I think this will have the possibility of taking
:48:32. > :48:33.the party backwards and all the hard work of
:48:34. > :48:39.the grassroots activists being led by Nathan and Nigel as well
:48:40. > :48:45.Neil Hamilton refutes that, claiming Ukip Wales has been going
:48:46. > :48:48.backwards and he is the man to unify the party
:48:49. > :48:54.In the meantime, many other members have welcomed his election
:48:55. > :49:05.He brings a wealth of experience and knowledge and in my books,
:49:06. > :49:10.he ticks all the boxes for being a reader.
:49:11. > :49:14.There is going to be disappointment, but we've got to go
:49:15. > :49:16.beyond that and think about what we are going to do
:49:17. > :49:19.Nevertheless, days after celebrating electoral success,
:49:20. > :49:21.this isn't how Ukip and its supporters
:49:22. > :49:27.I think it could be damaging to Ukip but again, it depends who is
:49:28. > :49:32.monitoring their progress and how much emphasis is the party going
:49:33. > :49:37.How active are they going to be in committees
:49:38. > :49:40.and in the everyday running of the assembly?
:49:41. > :49:45.Or are they going to remain for cursed on issues that are
:49:46. > :49:52.How the Assembly's newest party fares
:49:53. > :49:54.is likely to be one of the most interesting subplots
:49:55. > :49:59.These corridors will play an important role
:50:00. > :50:07.This week the UK Government announced a major
:50:08. > :50:12.Others were shocked that the expected root
:50:13. > :50:14.and branch reform isn't going to happen.
:50:15. > :50:18.I spoke to the man in charge of BBC Wales, and asked
:50:19. > :50:23.Rhodri Talfan Davies whether he was relieved.
:50:24. > :50:27.I think anyone who read the lurid headlines and warnings
:50:28. > :50:31.over the last couple of weeks might have feared for the worst,
:50:32. > :50:34.but actually I think what we have got is a strong settlement.
:50:35. > :50:37.I think we've got an endorsement of the BBC for the next 11 years
:50:38. > :50:41.and certainty that the licence fee will underpin that settlement.
:50:42. > :50:43.It means we can get on with what we do best
:50:44. > :50:46.which is making programmes not just here in Wales,
:50:47. > :50:50.Do you get the sense that John Whittingdale has had to
:50:51. > :50:55.and the initial what he wanted from the BBC?
:50:56. > :50:58.He has rowed back quite substantially from that.
:50:59. > :51:00.Well, I think there were genuine fears at the BBC
:51:01. > :51:03.a few months ago when the Green Paper arrived that there might be
:51:04. > :51:08.I have to say, reading the White Paper, what I see
:51:09. > :51:14.overwhelmingly is an endorsement of what the BBC does and also now the
:51:15. > :51:17.creative freedom to get on with what we do best.
:51:18. > :51:20.Now, as well as the White Paper, we have this letter
:51:21. > :51:23.from Tony Hall to the First Ministers of each part of the UK
:51:24. > :51:25.saying there is going to be more money
:51:26. > :51:28.for English-language programmes in Wales for example.
:51:29. > :51:32.there has been a 20% cut on that in Wales.
:51:33. > :51:34.This won't make up for that, will it?
:51:35. > :51:36.Well, we don't yet know what the level of
:51:37. > :51:40.Tony Hall has been very clear throughout that he
:51:41. > :51:43.has felt there is a deficit in English-language television
:51:44. > :51:47.provision in Wales and what we saw in a letter from the
:51:48. > :51:50.director-general to the first ministers across the UK was
:51:51. > :51:53.recognition that there is a particular problem in Wales and that
:51:54. > :51:56.the levels of funding at the moment are unsustainable.
:51:57. > :51:59.He is committing to new investment, fresh money,
:52:00. > :52:01.but we've still got some detailed financial planning to do
:52:02. > :52:05.Well, how much do you think it should be?
:52:06. > :52:08.Because Carwyn Jones thinks it should be 30 million,
:52:09. > :52:13.Every BBC boss is going to tell you that
:52:14. > :52:20.they want as much as possible and clearly we have seen a significant
:52:21. > :52:24.With whatever money we can secure, it will make a big difference on
:52:25. > :52:26.screen whether it's comedy, whether it's drama,
:52:27. > :52:29.I don't want to get into a numbers game.
:52:30. > :52:31.There's clearly some detail work to do.
:52:32. > :52:33.We are doing this in the context
:52:34. > :52:36.of a ?500 million savings plan that the BBC need to put
:52:37. > :52:38.together so this is going to be a difficult conversation.
:52:39. > :52:40.But isn't that the danger, that you are looking
:52:41. > :52:43.for this additional money at a time when money is incredibly
:52:44. > :52:46.tight and therefore you might not get as good a deal
:52:47. > :52:49.I think it's going to be challenging.
:52:50. > :52:53.It's particularly pleasing to see the director-general
:52:54. > :52:57.recognise the particular issues we have in Wales and make this
:52:58. > :52:59.commitment that there will be new investment,
:53:00. > :53:02.but I understand that until people see what that level of
:53:03. > :53:05.investment is, people will want to hold their position.
:53:06. > :53:09.Is there a danger or do you ever worry
:53:10. > :53:12.that with things like this, it's always the ones who shout loudest
:53:13. > :53:17.who get most and actually, normally, that's Scotland in terms of the BBC
:53:18. > :53:19.in Scotland, the dangers that the BBC are facing
:53:20. > :53:23.there of a breakaway Scottish BBC, that actually they
:53:24. > :53:25.will probably get more money as a bit of a sweetener?
:53:26. > :53:28.Well, I don't really recognise that reality.
:53:29. > :53:30.I think if you look at the story
:53:31. > :53:32.of network television in Wales and across the UK,
:53:33. > :53:37.I think if you look at the development of indigenous
:53:38. > :53:40.language services across the UK, Wales has led the way.
:53:41. > :53:42.And I think the particular issues with
:53:43. > :53:45.English-language television, they are particularly acute in Wales
:53:46. > :53:48.and that is not me saying that, that is the director-general of
:53:49. > :53:51.the BBC and recognising that very open and very candidly.
:53:52. > :53:54.So I don't think it's about who is shouting,
:53:55. > :53:59.I think it's about looking at the evidence, making the case and then
:54:00. > :54:02.getting involved in some detailed discussions internally.
:54:03. > :54:07.Isn't the weakness of BBC Wales that we do...
:54:08. > :54:10.Lots of drama is based in Wales for the network, Doctor Who and
:54:11. > :54:14.Sherlock and so on, but we don't do anything about Wales, we don't
:54:15. > :54:17.reflect Wales to our own audiences or elsewhere, we are just somewhere
:54:18. > :54:23.where drama happens rather than somewhere portrayed in dramas?
:54:24. > :54:26.But you have only been doing one of those things.
:54:27. > :54:31.We've had The Indian Doctor, we have had Hinterland.
:54:32. > :54:33.It's not true there hasn't been drama about Wales.
:54:34. > :54:37.But you're right, we have had an extraordinary success story in a
:54:38. > :54:42.and nothing we do should diminish this.
:54:43. > :54:45.That's a terrific success story that we should be shouting about,
:54:46. > :54:47.but you're right, side-by-side with that success,
:54:48. > :54:51.we want to see increased commitment to stories that tell us
:54:52. > :54:59.Without being too looking into ourselves and comparing too often
:55:00. > :55:00.with Scotland, there is talk of a Scottish
:55:01. > :55:05.Is that an avenue down which you would want to go
:55:06. > :55:08.for BBC Wales, at six o'clock news for an hour?
:55:09. > :55:11.I mean, we are looking at a whole range of options for news.
:55:12. > :55:14.You will have heard talk of whether there should be,
:55:15. > :55:15.for example, Welsh bulletins on some of
:55:16. > :55:20.We also need to look at whether our digital and online
:55:21. > :55:26.and social media services, have we got those rate?
:55:27. > :55:29.So there are lots of competing areas we are looking at.
:55:30. > :55:31.Television is part of that discussion.
:55:32. > :55:35.I'd hope we would be able to share the conclusion of that
:55:36. > :55:39.Back to our main story now and the ongoing talks between
:55:40. > :55:41.Labour and Plaid about the deadlock in Cardiff Bay.
:55:42. > :55:43.Cathy Owens is a former Labour special adviser and knows the ins
:55:44. > :55:46.and outs of how to do these kinds of political deals.
:55:47. > :55:59.Just first of all, that spectacle of last week, political drama, whatever
:56:00. > :56:04.we want to call it. How does that rate in terms of the excitement of
:56:05. > :56:08.the Assembly? Is it fairly new at the top right you relax about it?
:56:09. > :56:13.It's exciting for people like me. This is what we do for a living.
:56:14. > :56:17.Exciting for political journalists but not very exciting for Mrs Jones
:56:18. > :56:23.at home. She needs a government to be focusing on jobs, the economy,
:56:24. > :56:28.prosperity, social justice. . Discussions are happening now. What
:56:29. > :56:32.will Labour and Plaid Cymru be discussing now? We don't know. It is
:56:33. > :56:37.happening behind closed doors and the parties must be able to do it.
:56:38. > :56:42.This is not new politics, its old politics. This is just maths. What
:56:43. > :56:48.is that they're discussing? Lets you shoot it is about one budget other
:56:49. > :56:53.we don't really know. Is it about broad principles and how the country
:56:54. > :56:57.would be involved in decisions or is it real bread-and-butter issues? We
:56:58. > :57:02.do not know but if you look at both manifestos, there is a lot for
:57:03. > :57:08.everyone agrees so let's get some of that sorted out first and then, when
:57:09. > :57:11.you think about it, Labour have 29 seats, Plaid Cymru have 12 and they
:57:12. > :57:18.are not going to be in government. This is not a 50-50 split. We know
:57:19. > :57:21.there will be areas they can agree Sister manifestos are so similar,
:57:22. > :57:26.but what spot the stumbling blocks that will come down the line? In
:57:27. > :57:30.September there will be a big announcement in changes to tuition
:57:31. > :57:34.fees and there is a big difference in the parties there. What happens?
:57:35. > :57:42.They will agree to discuss it. Labour have not outlined what their
:57:43. > :57:47.response was B. But it will not be blocked Plaid Cymru want, will it?
:57:48. > :57:53.If they still come up with a notch and for per students to come to the
:57:54. > :57:58.best university, they will come to an agreement. Is the door close to
:57:59. > :58:03.the Conservatives now? Plaid Cymru and Labour are talking now and they
:58:04. > :58:08.have form since 2007. Do you think this alliance will last the term of
:58:09. > :58:12.the next five years? Absolutely not. This is the new maths and this is
:58:13. > :58:17.something we have talked about for a long time. We did not begin to
:58:18. > :58:27.happen on day one. Stove Labour and Tory deals are on the cards? Every
:58:28. > :58:34.party has to talk to every other party. And even Ukip? We always
:58:35. > :58:40.assumed that they would not be together... Well we don't know that.
:58:41. > :58:47.If Neil Hamilton manages to fix these things, was Labour talk to
:58:48. > :58:51.Ukip everybody needs to talk to everyone else because that is the
:58:52. > :58:54.new maths. What happened in the last five years was that Labour could
:58:55. > :58:58.talk to both Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems. They cannot do that now which
:58:59. > :59:01.means Plaid Cymru has a strong hand in the negotiations which they
:59:02. > :59:05.played in the very belligerent way as they have every right to do so.
:59:06. > :59:09.You have to be able to talk with all the parties in the Assembly over the
:59:10. > :59:15.next five years because that is what the people have asked you to do in a
:59:16. > :59:18.sense. There's lots of really interesting things. Major reform is
:59:19. > :59:22.quite difficult in the sort of arena or the sort of things that we might
:59:23. > :59:25.not see is major reorganisation of government because Plaid Cymru. Want
:59:26. > :59:33.to be in government in that regard. They have not won enough seats to be
:59:34. > :59:36.able to make wholesale changes to the structure. We have seen that
:59:37. > :59:41.message on Friday that said we are not grids look at a coalition, it'll
:59:42. > :59:45.be informal arrangement and yet we have been to hold Kirsty Williams
:59:46. > :59:50.has been offered a cabinet position or discussions by Carwyn Jones. If
:59:51. > :59:55.that is a price you? I have not heard that from Carmen Jones. I have
:59:56. > :59:59.not heard him speak about that. It could be one way that he is reaching
:00:00. > :00:05.out to all parties -- Carwyn Jones. It still does not reach 31. It's all
:00:06. > :00:09.about 31. 29 doesn't matter and that's why there was never any
:00:10. > :00:13.likelihood that Leanne Wood could be First Minister. You need to get 31
:00:14. > :00:17.to get your budget through and that's what's important. Very
:00:18. > :00:25.quickly, is it definitely going to be this week to think? Who knows?
:00:26. > :00:29.The full deal is not going to be done by Tuesday that they will have
:00:30. > :00:31.agreed on perhaps the principles. We will keep an eye have you back in.
:00:32. > :00:33.Don't forget you follow all the latest on Twitter.
:00:34. > :00:35.We're @walespolitics but for now that's all from me.
:00:36. > :00:38.Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.
:00:39. > :00:41.heard assist that. Thank you for coming. Great to see you both. Back
:00:42. > :00:51.to you. Welcome back. Now, have you had enough
:00:52. > :00:53.of the EU referendum? Well there's a Queen's speech
:00:54. > :00:55.next week in which we're promised Her Majesty will be talking
:00:56. > :00:58.about something other than Europe. When Her Majesty visits
:00:59. > :01:02.Parliament on Wednesday, front and centre in her speech
:01:03. > :01:06.will be measures for curbing extremism, including banning hate
:01:07. > :01:09.speakers from working with children And David Cameron will push forward
:01:10. > :01:15.with Conservative plans for the British Bill of Rights,
:01:16. > :01:22.in an attempt to assert the supremacy of UK courts
:01:23. > :01:25.in the run-up to the EU referendum. The Prime Minister will also press
:01:26. > :01:29.ahead with reforms to the adoption system, to speed up the placement
:01:30. > :01:31.of children with permanent families. New rules will also be brought
:01:32. > :01:36.in to make Britain a world leader in the development of driverless
:01:37. > :01:39.cars, and the fishing port of Newquay may be about to become
:01:40. > :01:42.the UK's first spaceport. It is one of eight sites
:01:43. > :01:46.the Government will be looking at. And finally, schools in England
:01:47. > :01:48.will be on the Queen's Along with the Government's
:01:49. > :01:56.watered-down plans for academies, ministers will also now be
:01:57. > :01:58.scrambling to work out new rules to stop parents
:01:59. > :02:01.taking their children out of school for family holidays during term
:02:02. > :02:12.time, following the High I don't get the impression there is
:02:13. > :02:18.much to detract from the referendum campaign. Who knows whether any of
:02:19. > :02:22.it will happen? You were just talking about the Lords and the
:02:23. > :02:27.number of defeats, this has been a very torrid legislative session for
:02:28. > :02:32.the government. You've had situations where the whips don't
:02:33. > :02:35.seem to know what is going on. The Sunday trading Bill, it seemed like
:02:36. > :02:41.the government did not realise they had not got the votes locked down.
:02:42. > :02:48.Nobody knows who will be pro Minister after June the 23rd. Who
:02:49. > :02:52.will be driving this legislation through? -- who will be Prime
:02:53. > :03:00.Minister. Theresa May is a complicated opinion on the EU, she
:03:01. > :03:06.wants to leave the EC HR but stay part of the EU. It is not there to
:03:07. > :03:12.be exciting, it is to prove the government is doing something. To
:03:13. > :03:17.the extent that there is any theme to what he announces, we need to go
:03:18. > :03:22.back to 2005, David Cameron said he wants sunshine to win the day, the
:03:23. > :03:29.wants his party to stop banging on about Europe and to be a social
:03:30. > :03:35.reformer. There is a mention of reforming adoption systems, it is
:03:36. > :03:39.like the big society has been wrenched back and David Cameron
:03:40. > :03:44.wants people to think about his legacy as different from the one
:03:45. > :03:56.nation Tory. Would be too much of an exaggeration to say that the
:03:57. > :04:00.government is running the Remain campaign and is too busy doing that?
:04:01. > :04:06.I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all. This speech is
:04:07. > :04:10.going through the motions, I don't think it is something they need to
:04:11. > :04:21.do. I don't think anyone will get terribly excited about it. This
:04:22. > :04:24.British bill of rights, I had to look it up to see if it is the same
:04:25. > :04:32.thing he has been talking about since opposition. But unless you
:04:33. > :04:37.come out of the European Court, it does not make any difference. You
:04:38. > :04:44.can always go to Strasberg. What was your take from Iain Duncan Smith.
:04:45. > :04:49.He's an interesting media performer but I'm not sure he has appeal
:04:50. > :04:53.beyond the base. The swing voter everybody is trying to target tends
:04:54. > :05:00.to be an older northern man, classic Labour voter. What figures can speak
:05:01. > :05:03.to those kind of people? I think all politicians have got a problem. Some
:05:04. > :05:12.pollsters said, who is the figure who could convince people? They
:05:13. > :05:21.said, the guy from money supermarket. The Governor of the
:05:22. > :05:27.Bank of England is the closest you get in the political sphere. This is
:05:28. > :05:33.a real problem for the Leave campaign, they don't have enough
:05:34. > :05:40.people who preach beyond the converted. I was at the premiere of
:05:41. > :05:43.Brexit The Movie. I felt that was a missed opportunity. So many
:05:44. > :05:48.commentators were wheeled out who were over the age of 50, the
:05:49. > :05:52.audience loved it but will it appeal beyond? I worry about that.
:05:53. > :05:57.Commentators over the age of 50 will never catch on. What did you take of
:05:58. > :06:03.it? There was a John Major called and Iain Duncan Smith winced with
:06:04. > :06:11.fury. You realised this Tory civil war, the wounds were first fleshed
:06:12. > :06:17.out 30 years ago. This stuff goes deep. Clearly immigration is his
:06:18. > :06:23.strongest card and the idea that it is a conspiracy between these people
:06:24. > :06:28.to keep us in, that is going to be their strongest card. That and
:06:29. > :06:34.immigration. He did effectively call for the resignation of Mark Carney.
:06:35. > :06:36.Now the rhetorical heat has been turned up on both sides
:06:37. > :06:40.Let's just compare David Cameron's language in November last year
:06:41. > :06:44.Some people seem to say that really Britain couldn't survive,
:06:45. > :06:49.couldn't do OK outside the European Union.
:06:50. > :06:55.Let's be frank, Britain is an amazing country.
:06:56. > :06:57.We've got the fifth biggest economy in the world, we are
:06:58. > :07:04.If we vote to leave on the 23rd of June, we will be
:07:05. > :07:09.We will be voting for fewer jobs, we will be voting for lower growth.
:07:10. > :07:22.We will be voting potentially for a recession.
:07:23. > :07:30.He has dined out on the Euro-sceptic shilling for all these years and it
:07:31. > :07:36.contrasts hugely with what he is saying no. It was bound to come back
:07:37. > :07:39.and haunt her. It is remarkable the extent to which David Cameron has
:07:40. > :07:46.been radicalised by his own campaign. Being in number ten is
:07:47. > :07:54.like being in a cult. He has lost everything about his heritage. He is
:07:55. > :07:58.fundamentally Euro-sceptic. Now we hear somebody banging the drum as if
:07:59. > :08:06.Armageddon is happening if we vote out. It is bizarre. It is a problem,
:08:07. > :08:13.what is the true David Cameron? Is it the one that we had only last
:08:14. > :08:18.November? We should go back into the archives further, to see what he is
:08:19. > :08:25.saying then,. But is it the one who says if we leave there will be armed
:08:26. > :08:30.conflict? The issue for me, if you believe this, why would you risk
:08:31. > :08:34.armed conflict for minor changes to our welfare balance? There is a
:08:35. > :08:38.really interesting difference between him and Theresa May. She
:08:39. > :08:46.said the sky will not fall in but in a dispassionate way, on balance, I
:08:47. > :08:51.want us to remain in. That is realistic. Jeremy Corbyn has handled
:08:52. > :08:54.this better than a it Cameron. That is another politician who is
:08:55. > :08:57.naturally Euro-sceptic comedy follows the left-wing line that
:08:58. > :09:03.there is a democratic deficit, corporate interests. When he is
:09:04. > :09:07.asked about it he gives an answer as he did yesterday that is about
:09:08. > :09:13.social protections and workers and sounds quite convincing. What do you
:09:14. > :09:19.make of it? When David Cameron and owns the referendum it was born of
:09:20. > :09:26.panic. The cause we have short-term culture in politics, it was brought
:09:27. > :09:29.about by the rise of Ukip, Nigel Farage was doing fantastically well.
:09:30. > :09:36.Little did they know that they would only get one MP and it has backfired
:09:37. > :09:42.massively. If this was going to risk Armageddon it was stupid and
:09:43. > :09:46.irrational of the Prime Minister. I wanted to ask you about the polls
:09:47. > :09:54.but we've not got time. By next week, maybe when it has sunk in, so
:09:55. > :09:56.far we have not seen any difference in the polls.
:09:57. > :09:59.Now, viewers in the North West will have just seen Conservative MP
:10:00. > :10:01.for Cheadle Mary Robinson challenged about whether expenses
:10:02. > :10:03.for volunteers on a Conservative election Battle Bus in the run-up
:10:04. > :10:06.to last year's general election should have been charged
:10:07. > :10:08.to her local campaign or the national party.
:10:09. > :10:13.The Conservative Party are under investigation for failing
:10:14. > :10:16.to declare these expenses - something they put down
:10:17. > :10:21.to an administrative error - but Ms Robinson insisted
:10:22. > :10:27.The party was quite clear to us locally that it would be included
:10:28. > :10:30.in the national spend and that was what we relied on,
:10:31. > :10:33.and from my point of view it was never going to be a national
:10:34. > :10:38.The national party told you this was going to be a national expense?
:10:39. > :10:41.The national party was clear that it was part of the national expense.
:10:42. > :10:49.It is not going away. It is really important. Journalists come under a
:10:50. > :10:54.lot of flak. This is a very difficult story to report. It is
:10:55. > :10:59.about minor details, accounting. This has been kept alive entirely by
:11:00. > :11:06.journalists. Particularly Michael Crick on Channel 4 News. Exactly.
:11:07. > :11:10.Things come out and it is hard to keep them down. People sitting at
:11:11. > :11:15.home thinking journalism is all terrible, for once people will think
:11:16. > :11:21.happier. Think of the fury of the Labour moderates, this is an open
:11:22. > :11:26.goal, a well-organised Labour Party, strong leadership, it might be
:11:27. > :11:31.exposed a bit, but they should exploit this. They have got complete
:11:32. > :11:34.silence. So far you've got 11 police forces investigating the
:11:35. > :11:41.Conservative Party about fraud and not a pipsqueak. The reason there
:11:42. > :11:45.are so quiet is because they are up to their necks in it as well. That
:11:46. > :11:50.is the difficulty, that it has been very difficult for broadcasters to
:11:51. > :11:54.get MPs on from other parties because they are all concerned that
:11:55. > :11:59.they have too much to hide. When I asked Alan Johnston about it, he did
:12:00. > :12:06.not know anything about it. Michael Portillo did not know about it
:12:07. > :12:14.either. I found that quite remarkable. It is a hard story to
:12:15. > :12:19.digests. What is the one sentence explanation for that? When there is
:12:20. > :12:25.all this blunder about the EU, it is crowding everything out. The money
:12:26. > :12:29.was charged to the national campaign which was under the legal limit. It
:12:30. > :12:32.should have been charged to the local campaigns but that would have
:12:33. > :12:37.put it over the legal limit and that is where the criminal penalties are.
:12:38. > :12:44.This is a big story about the way elections are funded, which is
:12:45. > :12:49.ridiculous. As soon as somebody gets into government they lose interest
:12:50. > :12:53.in it. You need to cover American elections if you think that is
:12:54. > :13:00.ridiculous. I'm serious, the evidence we have is about the
:13:01. > :13:04.Conservatives, how serious? I think they will get away with it. I don't
:13:05. > :13:09.think the Labour Party is well placed to exploit it. The problem is
:13:10. > :13:13.it will solidify and consolidate a feeling lots of people have that
:13:14. > :13:21.politicians are a bunch of crooks, most of them are not. This certainly
:13:22. > :13:28.stinks. We shall see. The police investigations are going on. That is
:13:29. > :13:33.it for today. Thank you to all of my guests. I will be back at the same
:13:34. > :13:39.time next week here on BBC One. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. If
:13:40. > :13:46.it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.