:00:38. > :00:44.Just over a fortnight to go, and the referendum debate is getting
:00:45. > :00:46.serious, with Boris Johnson and John Major the latest senior
:00:47. > :00:51.We'll be discussing all the week's big developments,
:00:52. > :00:59.We've hit the road with both campaigns, and we've got two big
:01:00. > :01:04.I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,
:01:05. > :01:08.And, if you haven't decided how to vote yet,
:01:09. > :01:18.One MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal live
:01:19. > :01:23.With the EU referendum just around the corner, we have got a special
:01:24. > :01:27.programme in Brussels looking at what people will mean for the money
:01:28. > :01:33.in your pocket, services in Wales and for industry.
:01:34. > :01:37.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:38. > :01:39.more likely to trust the word of a random stranger
:01:40. > :01:45.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:46. > :01:47.I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority
:01:48. > :01:50.It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.
:01:51. > :01:52.We'll try and find some random strangers to replace
:01:53. > :01:57.them next week, and see if you notice the difference!
:01:58. > :02:00.So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this
:02:01. > :02:02.referendum campaign, you only have to look at this
:02:03. > :02:05.morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major
:02:06. > :02:07.taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.
:02:08. > :02:10.The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party
:02:11. > :02:12.to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping
:02:13. > :02:17.It seems like John Major didn't get the message,
:02:18. > :02:20.as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,
:02:21. > :02:24.and called Boris Johnson a court jester.
:02:25. > :02:28.Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.
:02:29. > :02:33.This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,
:02:34. > :02:36.for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,
:02:37. > :02:38.straightforward facts and they decide to leave,
:02:39. > :02:40.then that is the decision the British people take.
:02:41. > :02:46.But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate
:02:47. > :02:48.information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,
:02:49. > :02:56.Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.
:02:57. > :02:59.And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit
:03:00. > :03:04.of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say
:03:05. > :03:08.And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms
:03:09. > :03:10.of what they are saying about immigration, a really
:03:11. > :03:16.They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.
:03:17. > :03:18.So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,
:03:19. > :03:22.when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined
:03:23. > :03:25.to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt
:03:26. > :03:29.by the Remain campaign to "take him out".
:03:30. > :03:31.Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...
:03:32. > :03:32.I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...
:03:33. > :03:39.He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,
:03:40. > :03:41.and what he wants to hear is the arguments,
:03:42. > :03:57.Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the
:03:58. > :04:01.memo from down the street, that was a joke.
:04:02. > :04:05.The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to
:04:06. > :04:09.beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled
:04:10. > :04:13.they are? My own evidence is they are very
:04:14. > :04:25.rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday
:04:26. > :04:31.night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.
:04:32. > :04:36.This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language
:04:37. > :04:40.being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very
:04:41. > :04:43.serious questions about how the party comes together.
:04:44. > :04:48.We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come
:04:49. > :04:54.together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on
:04:55. > :04:58.June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a
:04:59. > :05:03.Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers
:05:04. > :05:08.to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew
:05:09. > :05:11.Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the
:05:12. > :05:17.Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.
:05:18. > :05:22.John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,
:05:23. > :05:27.depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.
:05:28. > :05:32.There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major
:05:33. > :05:35.was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,
:05:36. > :05:39.currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.
:05:40. > :05:43.They are worried and trying to harm that.
:05:44. > :05:48.So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for
:05:49. > :05:53.Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for
:05:54. > :05:57.pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when
:05:58. > :06:00.it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a
:06:01. > :06:07.bubble. That is my understanding. The danger
:06:08. > :06:14.is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this
:06:15. > :06:18.debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.
:06:19. > :06:20.The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.
:06:21. > :06:27.The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to
:06:28. > :06:33.make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote
:06:34. > :06:36.against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all
:06:37. > :06:45.the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.
:06:46. > :06:50.It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.
:06:51. > :06:56.From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is
:06:57. > :07:00.prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to
:07:01. > :07:06.win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the
:07:07. > :07:09.likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a
:07:10. > :07:12.court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,
:07:13. > :07:18.Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like
:07:19. > :07:23.giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can
:07:24. > :07:28.you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they
:07:29. > :07:35.are prepared to trash their own party's brand.
:07:36. > :07:39.Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking
:07:40. > :07:43.to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.
:07:44. > :07:46.It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John
:07:47. > :07:52.Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very
:07:53. > :07:54.early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some
:07:55. > :08:01.questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.
:08:02. > :08:04.Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they
:08:05. > :08:10.exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.
:08:11. > :08:13.Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on
:08:14. > :08:18.his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.
:08:19. > :08:23.I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.
:08:24. > :08:26.As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.
:08:27. > :08:28.This is such an important development, it tells us about the
:08:29. > :08:32.remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,
:08:33. > :08:34.today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,
:08:35. > :08:38.the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,
:08:39. > :08:43.will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting
:08:44. > :08:47.back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,
:08:48. > :08:51.they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,
:08:52. > :08:58.depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first
:08:59. > :09:02.to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning
:09:03. > :09:05.to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative
:09:06. > :09:14.Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me
:09:15. > :09:16.on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving
:09:17. > :09:20.is the modern choice. The European Union
:09:21. > :09:22.is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs
:09:23. > :09:28.looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken
:09:29. > :09:31.by technological change. Second, because it's
:09:32. > :09:37.the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels
:09:38. > :09:39.?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money
:09:40. > :09:46.to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right
:09:47. > :10:00.to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,
:10:01. > :10:03.we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves
:10:04. > :10:07.instead of passing power to people who may not
:10:08. > :10:10.have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's
:10:11. > :10:14.the confident choice. We are a merchant,
:10:15. > :10:17.maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy
:10:18. > :10:21.on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders
:10:22. > :10:25.on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most
:10:26. > :10:27.widely studied language, before we are able to run our own
:10:28. > :10:34.affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends
:10:35. > :10:37.and allies on every continent, including Europe,
:10:38. > :10:43.but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan
:10:44. > :10:45.and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,
:10:46. > :10:47.you've just five You can only ask questions,
:10:48. > :11:01.or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a
:11:02. > :11:05.string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,
:11:06. > :11:10.make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an
:11:11. > :11:13.independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the
:11:14. > :11:15.opposite? Five former chancellors are
:11:16. > :11:22.campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...
:11:23. > :11:28.Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to
:11:29. > :11:32.vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and
:11:33. > :11:35.depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in
:11:36. > :11:41.a report. He hasn't. You will have to do
:11:42. > :11:45.better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away
:11:46. > :11:51.from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the
:11:52. > :11:59.uncertainty? All these international bodies...
:12:00. > :12:04.Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,
:12:05. > :12:10.international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free
:12:11. > :12:19.lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that
:12:20. > :12:22.is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is
:12:23. > :12:28.widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole
:12:29. > :12:33.of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for
:12:34. > :12:39.public services. They were feeding in the same basic
:12:40. > :12:42.data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.
:12:43. > :12:45.They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a
:12:46. > :12:52.whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The
:12:53. > :12:55.reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing
:12:56. > :13:00.something more productive than regulating everyone else is we
:13:01. > :13:06.shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.
:13:07. > :13:12.There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that
:13:13. > :13:18.hasn't grown. Another question, you have described
:13:19. > :13:22.the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust
:13:23. > :13:27.the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?
:13:28. > :13:32.I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a
:13:33. > :13:35.pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.
:13:36. > :13:40.The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.
:13:41. > :13:44.It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving
:13:45. > :13:51.a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies
:13:52. > :13:57.across the control -- the channel but in our interests.
:13:58. > :14:02.We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to
:14:03. > :14:06.trust any other politician but the British electorate.
:14:07. > :14:09.The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would
:14:10. > :14:13.admit that at least. Can you name a country that has
:14:14. > :14:17.access to the single market but does not accept free movement?
:14:18. > :14:23.The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...
:14:24. > :14:27.You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has
:14:28. > :14:33.access to the single market. There is a free trade area from
:14:34. > :14:38.non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and
:14:39. > :14:43.Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?
:14:44. > :14:48.Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.
:14:49. > :14:53.Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural
:14:54. > :14:59.Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.
:15:00. > :15:02.If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food
:15:03. > :15:07.importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we
:15:08. > :15:14.can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.
:15:15. > :15:18.In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between
:15:19. > :15:23.the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore
:15:24. > :15:25.guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European
:15:26. > :15:30.migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back
:15:31. > :15:36.door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but
:15:37. > :15:40.do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which
:15:41. > :15:45.includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in
:15:46. > :15:50.the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't
:15:51. > :15:55.take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and
:15:56. > :15:59.non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a
:16:00. > :16:02.problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the
:16:03. > :16:08.interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,
:16:09. > :16:14.let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.
:16:15. > :16:16.We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.
:16:17. > :16:18.Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,
:16:19. > :16:21.Businesses benefit from a European single market
:16:22. > :16:27.Workers benefit from employment protection.
:16:28. > :16:29.We trade more with the EU than any other country.
:16:30. > :16:34.from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.
:16:35. > :16:37.And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment
:16:38. > :16:40.and create more jobs for the next generation.
:16:41. > :16:43.In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face
:16:44. > :16:45.no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.
:16:46. > :16:47.Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -
:16:48. > :16:48.by working with our European partners,
:16:49. > :16:55.we can meet these challenges successfully.
:16:56. > :17:00.predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.
:17:01. > :17:03.And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,
:17:04. > :17:15.It would create a black hole in our public finances,
:17:16. > :17:19.meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.
:17:20. > :17:30.for more jobs, prosperity and security.
:17:31. > :17:32.As before, Dan, you now have five minutes
:17:33. > :17:36.to put your questions. Off you go.
:17:37. > :17:44.Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is
:17:45. > :17:48.undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,
:17:49. > :17:54.and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you
:17:55. > :17:59.would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think
:18:00. > :18:03.that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best
:18:04. > :18:07.of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our
:18:08. > :18:11.currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we
:18:12. > :18:15.have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What
:18:16. > :18:20.can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'
:18:21. > :18:30.time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is
:18:31. > :18:32.on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?
:18:33. > :18:36.More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how
:18:37. > :18:41.many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay
:18:42. > :18:45.in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would
:18:46. > :18:58.not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that
:18:59. > :19:03.but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go
:19:04. > :19:10.to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we
:19:11. > :19:14.are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about
:19:15. > :19:19.how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it
:19:20. > :19:22.safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a
:19:23. > :19:27.passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I
:19:28. > :19:32.do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great
:19:33. > :19:35.extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate
:19:36. > :19:39.change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we
:19:40. > :19:43.share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we
:19:44. > :19:46.have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that
:19:47. > :19:52.has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general
:19:53. > :19:56.population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do
:19:57. > :19:59.you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project
:20:00. > :20:03.where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,
:20:04. > :20:07.where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,
:20:08. > :20:10.and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of
:20:11. > :20:14.millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like
:20:15. > :20:19.around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the
:20:20. > :20:23.centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a
:20:24. > :20:26.force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a
:20:27. > :20:30.Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our
:20:31. > :20:35.MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have
:20:36. > :20:38.the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable
:20:39. > :20:43.as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether
:20:44. > :20:48.health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in
:20:49. > :20:52.those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign
:20:53. > :20:56.says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get
:20:57. > :21:01.cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low
:21:02. > :21:06.and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On
:21:07. > :21:10.the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my
:21:11. > :21:18.constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most
:21:19. > :21:22.if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,
:21:23. > :21:25.the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will
:21:26. > :21:31.be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people
:21:32. > :21:37.earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument
:21:38. > :21:41.for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is
:21:42. > :21:47.one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their
:21:48. > :21:52.mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is
:21:53. > :21:55.not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue
:21:56. > :21:59.out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see
:22:00. > :22:04.the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes
:22:05. > :22:07.of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast
:22:08. > :22:10.majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about
:22:11. > :22:15.what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have
:22:16. > :22:19.the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the
:22:20. > :22:27.rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.
:22:28. > :22:31.Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should
:22:32. > :22:35.stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European
:22:36. > :22:40.Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today
:22:41. > :22:45.if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you
:22:46. > :22:47.both for that. So, this week both sides of this
:22:48. > :22:50.referendum have really The big set-piece TV
:22:51. > :22:53.grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been
:22:54. > :22:55.knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally
:22:56. > :22:58.to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about
:22:59. > :23:00.all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been
:23:01. > :23:02.on the buses to see where this
:23:03. > :23:03.campaign is heading. There's livestock,
:23:04. > :23:05.there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man
:23:06. > :23:09.with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have
:23:10. > :23:13.accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum
:23:14. > :23:22.started to feel a bit more like a general election
:23:23. > :23:24.campaign, and not just because of
:23:25. > :23:26.the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled
:23:27. > :23:27.a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,
:23:28. > :23:30.and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers
:23:31. > :23:36.that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -
:23:37. > :23:40.not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,
:23:41. > :23:47.he's just a person that's walked in here
:23:48. > :23:50.and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could
:23:51. > :23:54.say it, I can promise. First of all,
:23:55. > :23:59.where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit
:24:00. > :24:03.of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of
:24:04. > :24:06.support, a lot of support, and a lot of people
:24:07. > :24:09.coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,
:24:10. > :24:12.we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need
:24:13. > :24:16.reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me
:24:17. > :24:21.a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,
:24:22. > :24:24.and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn
:24:25. > :24:31.made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know
:24:32. > :24:35.the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was
:24:36. > :24:37.a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,
:24:38. > :24:43.which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,
:24:44. > :24:49.he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful
:24:50. > :24:55.for that. Our journey took us to a building
:24:56. > :24:58.site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim
:24:59. > :25:01.is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign
:25:02. > :25:05.money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?
:25:06. > :25:09.No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants
:25:10. > :25:13.and things like that. Too many of them now
:25:14. > :25:16.coming into this country. Well, inevitably,
:25:17. > :25:18.I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign
:25:19. > :25:22.got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -
:25:23. > :25:25.in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary
:25:26. > :25:32.David Miliband. Some people might say
:25:33. > :25:35.that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile
:25:36. > :25:39.foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,
:25:40. > :25:42.what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,
:25:43. > :25:45.and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,
:25:46. > :25:47.this is my home country, and although it's not where I live
:25:48. > :25:50.and work at the moment, I still feel that there is
:25:51. > :25:52.a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues
:25:53. > :25:55.and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy
:25:56. > :25:56.issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger
:25:57. > :26:00.in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's
:26:01. > :26:03.double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum
:26:04. > :26:06.battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there
:26:07. > :26:13.defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum
:26:14. > :26:15.campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been
:26:16. > :26:18.full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime
:26:19. > :26:24.Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott
:26:25. > :26:27.seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column
:26:28. > :26:29.today that his party's message
:26:30. > :26:43.hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.
:26:44. > :26:47.Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked
:26:48. > :26:52.the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,
:26:53. > :26:56.I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the
:26:57. > :27:00.strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will
:27:01. > :27:04.have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but
:27:05. > :27:08.where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between
:27:09. > :27:14.them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the
:27:15. > :27:19.European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the
:27:20. > :27:24.arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's
:27:25. > :27:28.bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a
:27:29. > :27:34.government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and
:27:35. > :27:41.when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the
:27:42. > :27:44.Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not
:27:45. > :27:48.putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because
:27:49. > :27:52.they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get
:27:53. > :27:58.another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried
:27:59. > :28:04.that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to
:28:05. > :28:08.vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to
:28:09. > :28:11.hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether
:28:12. > :28:15.they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is
:28:16. > :28:24.basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in
:28:25. > :28:26.billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all
:28:27. > :28:30.these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the
:28:31. > :28:33.bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we
:28:34. > :28:37.must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social
:28:38. > :28:45.justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!
:28:46. > :28:50.Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look
:28:51. > :28:55.at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the
:28:56. > :29:00.Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things
:29:01. > :29:06.predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should
:29:07. > :29:10.remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies
:29:11. > :29:15.of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but
:29:16. > :29:20.I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy
:29:21. > :29:25.is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!
:29:26. > :29:29.But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has
:29:30. > :29:35.happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!
:29:36. > :29:39.On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that
:29:40. > :29:45.they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against
:29:46. > :29:50.social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we
:29:51. > :29:54.all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people
:29:55. > :29:58.are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he
:29:59. > :30:03.said, but point out what these beggars did in government!
:30:04. > :30:13.What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter
:30:14. > :30:13.offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.
:30:14. > :30:42.Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they
:30:43. > :30:46.want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the
:30:47. > :30:53.Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the
:30:54. > :30:57.common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,
:30:58. > :31:01.I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On
:31:02. > :31:05.that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.
:31:06. > :31:14.I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe
:31:15. > :31:16.so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an
:31:17. > :31:18.argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure
:31:19. > :31:24.the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet
:31:25. > :31:28.Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime
:31:29. > :31:36.Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia
:31:37. > :31:39.Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been
:31:40. > :31:47.suspended from your party, have you thought this through?
:31:48. > :31:52.Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't
:31:53. > :31:56.when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they
:31:57. > :32:01.can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there
:32:02. > :32:05.is confusion as to the Labour position.
:32:06. > :32:10.Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most
:32:11. > :32:17.of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,
:32:18. > :32:28.8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside
:32:29. > :32:30.them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you
:32:31. > :32:32.disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I
:32:33. > :32:35.wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the
:32:36. > :32:36.Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this
:32:37. > :32:42.referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in
:32:43. > :32:47.to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the
:32:48. > :32:51.referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get
:32:52. > :32:57.concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is
:32:58. > :33:06.what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We
:33:07. > :33:12.need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its
:33:13. > :33:16.own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the
:33:17. > :33:22.issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island
:33:23. > :33:27.shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no
:33:28. > :33:32.say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might
:33:33. > :33:36.bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you
:33:37. > :33:41.available? I have done my bit for the Labour
:33:42. > :33:46.Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I
:33:47. > :33:54.want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused
:33:55. > :34:02.because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it
:34:03. > :34:05.and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole
:34:06. > :34:13.political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global
:34:14. > :34:18.solution. There will be more migration coming from African
:34:19. > :34:22.countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This
:34:23. > :34:26.is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global
:34:27. > :34:30.solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of
:34:31. > :34:32.it. Thank you.
:34:33. > :34:34.Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,
:34:35. > :34:38.you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll
:34:39. > :34:40.It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.
:34:41. > :34:43.But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory
:34:44. > :34:47.Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,
:34:48. > :34:50.as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time
:34:51. > :35:04.What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of
:35:05. > :35:08.people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the
:35:09. > :35:11.level of debate. Even today.
:35:12. > :35:18.What is your decision? It is important to get this across.
:35:19. > :35:20.But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the
:35:21. > :35:24.Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset
:35:25. > :35:31.people. In terms of this referendum, it is
:35:32. > :35:35.clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and
:35:36. > :35:38.said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.
:35:39. > :35:42.If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth
:35:43. > :35:47.around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life
:35:48. > :35:51.chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.
:35:52. > :35:56.And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not
:35:57. > :36:00.convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.
:36:01. > :36:04.A poll I have been running has come out and said that.
:36:05. > :36:10.When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It
:36:11. > :36:16.has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is
:36:17. > :36:21.a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to
:36:22. > :36:24.forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.
:36:25. > :36:31.That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic
:36:32. > :36:34.arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear
:36:35. > :36:41.points. On the economy, the people who
:36:42. > :36:45.always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.
:36:46. > :36:49.Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of
:36:50. > :36:55.Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They
:36:56. > :36:59.cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this
:37:00. > :37:04.nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.
:37:05. > :37:07.Why do 74% in your constituency say...
:37:08. > :37:13.That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,
:37:14. > :37:16.74%. People will feel more passionate
:37:17. > :37:19.about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They
:37:20. > :37:24.have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think
:37:25. > :37:30.the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we
:37:31. > :37:35.are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away
:37:36. > :37:41.for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most
:37:42. > :37:45.vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service
:37:46. > :37:50.funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye
:37:51. > :37:54.and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great
:37:55. > :37:58.idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.
:37:59. > :38:02.Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into
:38:03. > :38:08.politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It
:38:09. > :38:13.would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On
:38:14. > :38:18.balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its
:38:19. > :38:24.vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It
:38:25. > :38:26.isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling
:38:27. > :38:28.us how you will vote on June 23. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:29. > :38:33.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:38:34. > :38:37.the Week Ahead, when we'll be talking about the referendum
:38:38. > :38:39.and the TV debates with the veteran Conservative backbencher David
:38:40. > :38:40.Davis. First, though, the Sunday
:38:41. > :38:48.Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to the Sunday
:38:49. > :38:50.Politics Wales. This week we've got
:38:51. > :38:52.a special edition the closest thing the
:38:53. > :38:56.European Union has to a home - and we're going to be looking
:38:57. > :38:59.at what the vote on June the 23rd will mean to the money in your
:39:00. > :39:02.pocket, to services in Wales, All of which, we hope, will help you
:39:03. > :39:07.to decide whether or not the UK and Wales should remain
:39:08. > :39:12.or leave the European Union. MUSIC: Ode To Joy
:39:13. > :39:21.by Beethoven The European Parliament,
:39:22. > :39:24.a huge rabbit warren of a building, full of deals being struck
:39:25. > :39:28.and promises made - It's one of the main institutions
:39:29. > :39:31.of the EU, alongside the Commission,
:39:32. > :39:34.the Council, In the Parliament,
:39:35. > :39:41.they vote in seconds, sometimes hundreds of times
:39:42. > :39:44.in each session, MEPs have power over all
:39:45. > :39:48.sorts of issues, from human rights
:39:49. > :39:50.to the environment, Tara Palmeri knows all the ins
:39:51. > :39:57.and outs of how the EU works. As a journalist for a specialist
:39:58. > :40:00.political magazine in Brussels, she says EU leaders resent there's
:40:01. > :40:04.a referendum in the UK at all. There's a lot of frustration
:40:05. > :40:06.in general, just because of the fact that, oh,
:40:07. > :40:10.we had to go through this huge UK settlement,
:40:11. > :40:12.we're trying to beg them to stay, in the UK press, they don't
:40:13. > :40:18.realise how much we help them. This is the chitter-chatter
:40:19. > :40:20.I hear all the time. And then there's also talk of,
:40:21. > :40:22."Well, if they leave, "we're going to make it
:40:23. > :40:24.hard for them, "and to teach the other
:40:25. > :40:28.member states a lesson So, yeah, of course there's
:40:29. > :40:33.resentment, it's politics, But what would happen to the EU
:40:34. > :40:39.project if the UK left? Some say it could speed up
:40:40. > :40:41.closer integration between those countries
:40:42. > :40:43.who are left, as a dissenting British voice
:40:44. > :40:46.would have gone - shared by people like this
:40:47. > :40:51.MEP from Sweden, Peter Lundgren. so is excited by what's
:40:52. > :40:56.happening in the UK right now. Quite recently we had a poll
:40:57. > :40:59.that showed that we are still having a majority
:41:00. > :41:03.for staying in the European Union, that then the Eurosceptical ones
:41:04. > :41:13.in Sweden would increase - but...if it was 10, 12%, and would
:41:14. > :41:18.actually have a majority by then. So I often say to my voters
:41:19. > :41:20.home in Sweden, they don't believe it's
:41:21. > :41:24.possible to leave this place, Back in Wales, I meet the UK's man
:41:25. > :41:30.in Brussels. Lord Jonathan Hill is
:41:31. > :41:34.one of the 28 commissioners charged with coming up
:41:35. > :41:37.with new EU policies. He thinks that Wales and Britain
:41:38. > :41:41.get a better deal out of the EU underestimate the influence that the
:41:42. > :41:50.UK has in the EU with its voice. I think if you look at the agenda
:41:51. > :41:54.that's being pursued in the EU, in terms of the single market,
:41:55. > :41:58.free trade, better regulation, those are all agendas that the Brits
:41:59. > :42:01.have argued for, for as long as you and I
:42:02. > :42:04.can remember. And that is now
:42:05. > :42:05.the mainstream agenda. Aren't you underestimating
:42:06. > :42:09.the influence the UK has globally in its ability to talk with America,
:42:10. > :42:12.with China, with India, Isn't it you that's underestimating
:42:13. > :42:16.what the UK can achieve? No. As I've said, I think
:42:17. > :42:19.that being in the EU gives us clout
:42:20. > :42:22.in these negotiations. There are a whole load of other
:42:23. > :42:25.business relationships Back in Brussels,
:42:26. > :42:29.things are livening up. Well, it's just gone past 11:20 here
:42:30. > :42:32.in the European Parliament. A bell has just gone off to tell
:42:33. > :42:35.the 751 MEPs so they're all streaming
:42:36. > :42:38.down this corridor into the main chamber session
:42:39. > :42:41.just behind me there, some European legislation
:42:42. > :42:45.is going to be passed. I caught up with two of Wales' MEPs
:42:46. > :42:51.to discuss the referendum. Looking at the issue of the economy
:42:52. > :42:54.in Wales specifically, regional aid, you'll have
:42:55. > :42:57.read recently that says, in Wales,
:42:58. > :43:03.a net beneficiary of EU funds. What did you make of that report
:43:04. > :43:05.when you saw it? Well, are we saying
:43:06. > :43:08.that our democracy and our freedom is worth ?1.50 per
:43:09. > :43:12.person, per week? Because that's basically
:43:13. > :43:15.what that research is telling us. Because that's quite a cheap price,
:43:16. > :43:17.I think, for selling our ability...
:43:18. > :43:22.It's ?80 million a year overall. There's been an awful lot of talk
:43:23. > :43:27.about how worthwhile it is and what this research shows is
:43:28. > :43:32.that in Wales, just on the economy, just on regional funding
:43:33. > :43:34.coming to Wales, actually, there's
:43:35. > :43:37.an economic benefit there. The reality is, it's our money
:43:38. > :43:42.coming back to us. An awful lot of it.
:43:43. > :43:43.More of it coming back. There's no such thing as EU money,
:43:44. > :43:46.and the rest of the United Kingdom is paying ?3 a week
:43:47. > :43:50.so that in Wales we benefit ?1.50. Great, brilliant,
:43:51. > :43:52.we're benefiting in Wales, let's stay in the European Union,
:43:53. > :43:55.surely? Absolutely not, because ?10.1 billion a year net
:43:56. > :43:59.is what we're paying to the EU. We could use that much better
:44:00. > :44:01.ourselves without the EU actually telling us
:44:02. > :44:04.how to spend that money, where to spend it,
:44:05. > :44:05.and flying the EU flag to say, thank you very much.
:44:06. > :44:08.That's a fair point, Kay Swinburne - OK, more of it comes back,
:44:09. > :44:12.but at the end of the day, it's that point of there's no such
:44:13. > :44:14.thing as European money - Wales or elsewhere. I think we have
:44:15. > :44:17.to come back to the economy, and where we started on this,
:44:18. > :44:20.that actually the economic impact and therefore it is my absolute
:44:21. > :44:26.belief that if we leave the EU, there will be such a significant
:44:27. > :44:28.impact on our economy overall, as the United Kingdom,
:44:29. > :44:30.not just in Wales, but across the whole
:44:31. > :44:32.of the United Kingdom. and therefore we will lose that cost
:44:33. > :44:38.of the EU very quickly in our lack of productivity
:44:39. > :44:41.as a result of leaving. So if you're taking
:44:42. > :44:43.two, three, four, five - and worse scenarios beyond that -
:44:44. > :44:47.hit on your GDP as a percentage, then actually the cost of the EU
:44:48. > :44:51.is less than 1% of our GDP. So there's a real significant
:44:52. > :44:53.mismatch here for the opportunity we are
:44:54. > :44:57.giving people as part of the EU. And the risk of us coming out,
:44:58. > :45:00.and the impact, there will be no spare money
:45:01. > :45:02.for Wales, Is there a concern maybe
:45:03. > :45:07.that the whole debate about the EU referendum,
:45:08. > :45:09.in Wales specifically, has centred around this
:45:10. > :45:12.issue of regional funding, and that's been too much
:45:13. > :45:14.of a focus of the debate, rather than, as you're talking about
:45:15. > :45:18.there, the wider economic benefits? I talked to all the companies
:45:19. > :45:21.around Wales right now and I've certainly prioritised
:45:22. > :45:24.going to visit as many of them as possible to find out what they
:45:25. > :45:28.see the value of the EU as being, and we've had those
:45:29. > :45:31.long discussions. that this is a hugely beneficial
:45:32. > :45:37.union for them to be part of. Access to those 500 million
:45:38. > :45:40.people in terms of consumers and actually, many of those
:45:41. > :45:45.are foreign companies who are invested in the UK
:45:46. > :45:49.and invested in Wales, specifically, So there is no certainty,
:45:50. > :45:53.in the longer term, whether or not that investment would
:45:54. > :45:57.continue if we were to leave the EU. All these risks are really,
:45:58. > :46:00.really big, and, actually, for what? That is all we are hearing,
:46:01. > :46:04.is fear, fear, fear. when Switzerland and Norway
:46:05. > :46:09.had their referendum... Aren't they
:46:10. > :46:11.well-placed fears? No, not at all. Doesn't it
:46:12. > :46:13.highlight what the issues would be? We don't know
:46:14. > :46:15.what's going to happen. Norway and Switzerland were told
:46:16. > :46:17.the exact same thing. Fear, doom and gloom,
:46:18. > :46:20.we're going to lose jobs, we're going to lose money, and look
:46:21. > :46:24.how they are booming as nations within Europe but outside of the EU.
:46:25. > :46:28.Why would we be any different? And are you seriously saying
:46:29. > :46:31.that the Germans are going to stop selling us their BMWs and Mercedes?
:46:32. > :46:34.Of course they're not. But there are issues here
:46:35. > :46:37.about trade deals, which would take years and years to
:46:38. > :46:40.complete, and the uncertainty there. And it's a huge leap in the dark.
:46:41. > :46:42.This is ridiculous. No, a leap in
:46:43. > :46:45.the dark is an absolute misnomer. It's disgraceful to say that, as the
:46:46. > :46:49.fifth largest economy in the world, we cannot set up our own
:46:50. > :46:52.unilateral trade deals with whoever we want
:46:53. > :46:55.for the benefit our nation. We just need to look at Iceland.
:46:56. > :46:58.They set up a trade deal with China. That's an absurd comparison.
:46:59. > :47:00.300,000 people... Why is it absurd? A tiny country in the middle
:47:01. > :47:03.of the North Atlantic, compared to, as you've just said there, the fifth
:47:04. > :47:06.largest economy... There we go. As you've said, if a tiny country
:47:07. > :47:09.can set up a trade deal with China, the fifth biggest trading company
:47:10. > :47:13.in the world? But there are trade deals
:47:14. > :47:15.and trade deals. I would not want the Icelandic deal
:47:16. > :47:17.for the United Kingdom - with China - because it is not
:47:18. > :47:19.a good deal. So, why... Can I bring this back to
:47:20. > :47:23.something very specific here? In terms of Wales. If we were
:47:24. > :47:26.to come out of the EU tomorrow, our Welsh farmers wouldn't get
:47:27. > :47:29.the CAP payments they get right now. Yes, they would.
:47:30. > :47:32.No, they wouldn't. Yes, they would. Because the economy would be
:47:33. > :47:35.in difficulty. Absolute rubbish. Since when were you in government,
:47:36. > :47:38.Nathan? 10.5... Can I finish what I was saying?
:47:39. > :47:40.10.5... We'll finish that point,
:47:41. > :47:43.then come back to you. That actually the direct
:47:44. > :47:46.payments are really important particularly West Wales,
:47:47. > :47:50.where I come from. But the other side of that is,
:47:51. > :47:55.Welsh lamb is my biggest export. Over 50% of lamb,
:47:56. > :47:59.Welsh lamb, goes to the EU. a 60% tariff would be the standard
:48:00. > :48:04.tariff on most lamb. Where's our market gone?
:48:05. > :48:08.Our lamb is 60% more expensive for the French, the Belgians to buy.
:48:09. > :48:10.It's not going to happen. So we're going to bring
:48:11. > :48:13.tariffs on the French selling us their cheese
:48:14. > :48:16.and champagne? Of course we're not. But they're luxury items,
:48:17. > :48:18.with all fairness. And it's really important.
:48:19. > :48:21.Lamb is a luxury item to a lot of people, as well.
:48:22. > :48:24.I don't know about your household, but I only have it usually once a
:48:25. > :48:27.month because it's fairly expensive. Now, with regards to trade deals
:48:28. > :48:30.and all these kinds of things, and you've said,
:48:31. > :48:35.if we leave tomorrow, the farmers will not get the CAP.
:48:36. > :48:38.What a load of rubbish. Are you telling me that the
:48:39. > :48:42.government in Westminster wouldn't be able to find
:48:43. > :48:44.a piffling ?220 million... David Cameron said there'd
:48:45. > :48:46.be no guarantee. That's because he's
:48:47. > :48:49.in the middle of scaremongering, trying to make people vote to stay
:48:50. > :48:53.in. The reality is, ?10.1 billion... You've said that already.
:48:54. > :48:55...is the net benefit of us leaving. Let's move on.
:48:56. > :48:58.We will find ?220 million. This is a trade deal
:48:59. > :49:02.with America, essentially, and there's been an awful
:49:03. > :49:05.lot of talk from Ukip members, it could mean the end,
:49:06. > :49:08.the privatisation, of the NHS. That's scaremongering
:49:09. > :49:09.of the worst kind, when you know that the European
:49:10. > :49:12.Parliament has a majority of members who would not allow that to happen.
:49:13. > :49:15.No, absolutely not. The majority of members here will
:49:16. > :49:19.vote for TTIP to go through. But with a provision it would not
:49:20. > :49:22.include social services, Let's hope that has that in it,
:49:23. > :49:27.but we cannot guarantee it. How many nations in Europe
:49:28. > :49:30.have an NHS, Four, five, six,
:49:31. > :49:34.seven other countries. ..from opening up
:49:35. > :49:37.to the private sector. Well... Are we going to allow 27 other
:49:38. > :49:40.nations to decide Or are we going to ourselves
:49:41. > :49:45.set up our own free trade deals with America for the benefit solely
:49:46. > :49:48.of Britain and the British people? And that's the reality.
:49:49. > :49:52.That's a good point. If it wasn't... If we weren't in the EU,
:49:53. > :49:54.we could set up that trade deal with America and make sure
:49:55. > :49:56.the NHS is safe. and I've spent a lot of time
:49:57. > :50:00.with my US counterparts - the real issue is that as a block
:50:01. > :50:03.of 500 million plus people, we have huge waits in those
:50:04. > :50:05.negotiations, which means that we
:50:06. > :50:08.can exclude our public sector And therefore there will be no
:50:09. > :50:13.risk to the NHS or any other health care system.
:50:14. > :50:16.You cannot guarantee that. But that is the deal,
:50:17. > :50:18.and I will not vote - nor will anybody
:50:19. > :50:19.in this house vote - for anything that doesn't put
:50:20. > :50:22.that level of protection in. as a population of just over
:50:23. > :50:26.60 million people, we will not have the ability
:50:27. > :50:29.to actually negotiate that type of caveat
:50:30. > :50:32.within a trade deal. So, 60 million people
:50:33. > :50:35.versus three... Didn't Obama himself say we'd be
:50:36. > :50:38.at the back of the queue? The queue, yes. How many Americans
:50:39. > :50:41.use the word "queue"? They don't even know what it means.
:50:42. > :50:43.It's "the back of the line". That was something that the
:50:44. > :50:47.Prime Minister asked him to say, more scaremongering.
:50:48. > :50:49.And that's all it is. This is the leader
:50:50. > :50:52.of the free world. Who's been asked to do it
:50:53. > :50:54.as a favour. The Prime Minister asked him
:50:55. > :50:56.to do us a favour. Let's scare the British people
:50:57. > :50:59.into voting to stay in something we actually don't want to
:51:00. > :51:01.be a part of. But ultimately, it's not about
:51:02. > :51:04.the ?55 million a day, it's not about not being able
:51:05. > :51:06.to control our borders. It's about - do we believe
:51:07. > :51:09.that the British people are good enough to make
:51:10. > :51:13.all of our own laws in Westminster, or do we need bureaucrats,
:51:14. > :51:16.unelected, here in this building, I'll say first, Barack Obama
:51:17. > :51:20.isn't here to defend himself, but I'm sure he'd dispute that fact.
:51:21. > :51:23.But there is a point there. Making your own
:51:24. > :51:26.laws for your own country, But we actually do make
:51:27. > :51:28.our own laws. We are actually
:51:29. > :51:31.part of the legislation here. I certainly take
:51:32. > :51:34.part in co-decision processes. I genuinely have an
:51:35. > :51:37.impact on law here. not only do the elected members
:51:38. > :51:41.of the house here have a say, they're the government ministers
:51:42. > :51:47.of each country. If they don't want a rule or a law,
:51:48. > :51:50.it doesn't happen, it's a case of actually
:51:51. > :51:53.finding those rules that work. So when the British government...
:51:54. > :51:56...you need one set of rules, and on 95% of those rules
:51:57. > :52:00.over the last seven years, It is a tiny number that we have not
:52:01. > :52:06.actually wanted in their entirety. And we opposed them, and the rest
:52:07. > :52:09.of Europe said "tough luck", and we've had to impose them.
:52:10. > :52:13.But on almost every important... 79 laws that our government said
:52:14. > :52:15.was not beneficial or good for the British people,
:52:16. > :52:19.and the rest of Europe said, "Well, "tough luck, you've got to
:52:20. > :52:21.have them." This vote is about who rules
:52:22. > :52:25.and governs Britain. Is it us, the British people,
:52:26. > :52:30.or is it this place? My issue is, what is sovereignty?
:52:31. > :52:32.Ultimately... I mean, I'm Welsh,
:52:33. > :52:35.so is my sovereignty the same Is it the same as somebody
:52:36. > :52:39.in Scotland? I suspect not. So sovereignty is a strange word
:52:40. > :52:42.to be using in the first place, in the context
:52:43. > :52:44.of the United Kingdom. But leaving that aside,
:52:45. > :52:46.we give up our sovereignty when we actually
:52:47. > :52:48.participate in NATO missions. Where our soldiers
:52:49. > :52:50.are sent to fight. We are actually giving
:52:51. > :52:52.up our sovereignty in that. The World Trade Organisation
:52:53. > :52:56.is a trade organisation We give up sovereignty,
:52:57. > :53:01.as does any member of the WTO. Therefore, our sovereignty
:53:02. > :53:03.is always shared. there is no such thing as a
:53:04. > :53:07.sovereign nation. I would love for this to continue
:53:08. > :53:09.for longer, but we have run out of time.
:53:10. > :53:12.Nathan Gill, Kay Swinburne, thank you much for your time.
:53:13. > :53:14.You're welcome. With the fate of the Welsh steel
:53:15. > :53:17.industry still uncertain, the head of the body which
:53:18. > :53:19.represents steelmakers has told this programme
:53:20. > :53:22.the industry won't survive if China is allowed unfettered
:53:23. > :53:26.access to European markets. The steel crisis continues
:53:27. > :53:33.to cast a long shadow. and both sides of the campaign have
:53:34. > :53:40.a different take on Brussels' role. The city saw Welsh steelworkers
:53:41. > :53:44.protesting in harmony with their European colleagues
:53:45. > :53:47.back in February, demanding EU action
:53:48. > :53:50.to save their industry. Under threat, as they see it,
:53:51. > :53:54.from Chinese steel, which is accused of being
:53:55. > :53:57.dumped on the European market. In other words,
:53:58. > :54:01.sold below the cost of production. In response,
:54:02. > :54:03.the EU has imposed taxes 'The devastating effects
:54:04. > :54:08.of Chinese dumping 'are why the European steel industry
:54:09. > :54:12.is calling for China 'to be denied market
:54:13. > :54:14.economy status.' As it stands, China is
:54:15. > :54:18.regarded as a nonmarket economy because its government is seen
:54:19. > :54:21.to interfere in the market. If, in due course, China is granted
:54:22. > :54:26.market economy status by the EU, the country's exports
:54:27. > :54:29.would face lower tariffs. So, do you believe that if China
:54:30. > :54:35.is granted market economy status, it would make the
:54:36. > :54:38.steel crisis worse? The dimension of the Chinese
:54:39. > :54:43.steel industry, excess steel capacity
:54:44. > :54:50.is such that... the non-survival of the
:54:51. > :54:54.European steel industry. While Tata Steel is in the process
:54:55. > :54:57.of looking for a buyer Italy's Ilva group is also looking
:54:58. > :55:03.to off-load its Taranto site It is the biggest in Europe,
:55:04. > :55:10.employing some 14,000 people. Some of Italy's MEPs are also
:55:11. > :55:17.worried about what will happen next. TRANSLATION: We need to put policies
:55:18. > :55:20.in place to challenge China and avoid destroying
:55:21. > :55:22.our own industry. There needs to be space for everyone
:55:23. > :55:25.in the global market, but we also need to be able
:55:26. > :55:30.to defend our home interest. it's reason enough for the UK
:55:31. > :55:35.to get out of the EU. I think it's a very,
:55:36. > :55:37.very serious concern, but it also shows that the
:55:38. > :55:40.European Commission, which has been investigating
:55:41. > :55:44.Chinese steel dumping for the last ten years
:55:45. > :55:47.without taking any action, is clearly not acting
:55:48. > :55:50.in our best interests. But back in Port Talbot,
:55:51. > :55:54.Welsh Labour's MEP, a Remain campaigner,
:55:55. > :55:57.says the European Parliament is opposed to giving China
:55:58. > :56:00.the special trade status. Well, I think we've got
:56:01. > :56:02.a much better chance of protecting the steel industry
:56:03. > :56:05.at a EU level So, for example, currently, the
:56:06. > :56:11.European Parliament's position is, we would not accept
:56:12. > :56:14.market economy status for China, which says China will get
:56:15. > :56:18.it automatically But also, there many people,
:56:19. > :56:23.including myself, who think China have not met
:56:24. > :56:26.the five criteria they need to meet before getting
:56:27. > :56:28.that economy status. And therefore they won't get
:56:29. > :56:31.granted market economy status two big questions soon to be
:56:32. > :56:40.answered that will shape Wales' future
:56:41. > :56:43.for years to come. Europol is the EU's law
:56:44. > :56:46.enforcement agency and coordinates the sharing
:56:47. > :56:50.of EU countries' intelligence It's Carmarthenshire-born
:56:51. > :56:53.director told me why he thinks the UK is safer
:56:54. > :56:57.staying in the EU. We're looking at the issue
:56:58. > :57:00.of whether or not Wales, whether the UK, should remain
:57:01. > :57:03.part of the European Union. From a security point of view,
:57:04. > :57:06.policing point of view, were the UK to leave
:57:07. > :57:10.the European Union? Well, in the last ten years,
:57:11. > :57:12.especially, the UK has become more
:57:13. > :57:14.and more dependent to share intelligence and to
:57:15. > :57:20.coordinate joint operations against organised crime
:57:21. > :57:23.and terrorism right across Europe, so I think we would be
:57:24. > :57:26.losing potential access to something from the way in which the UK
:57:27. > :57:31.protects itself from these threats. But what would really change
:57:32. > :57:34.were the UK to leave, in terms of sharing
:57:35. > :57:36.that information, sharing that intelligence?
:57:37. > :57:38.Because, presumably, just whether or not the UK's
:57:39. > :57:43.part of the European Union. It does, and the UK has really
:57:44. > :57:45.important relationships with the Americans,
:57:46. > :57:48.and also intelligence community, but there are some unique parts
:57:49. > :57:52.of the way the EU does the business. You know, sharing information
:57:53. > :57:55.through Europol, for example, which is an EU law enforcement
:57:56. > :57:58.agency that I run - and I give you a very
:57:59. > :58:01.current example, on child sexual exploitation,
:58:02. > :58:04.we've had some great success responsible for that
:58:05. > :58:07.operating online. that Europol has coordinated across
:58:08. > :58:13.Europe that have involved the UK. Police forces running
:58:14. > :58:17.important operations, and we can connect, for them,
:58:18. > :58:23.intelligence across Europe. But would that information
:58:24. > :58:26.really stop at Dover, at the border with the UK just
:58:27. > :58:29.because the UK would leave the EU? I mean, that just
:58:30. > :58:31.doesn't seem credible. It does depend, then, on how the UK
:58:32. > :58:35.would negotiate this withdrawal, and I'm sure Britain, because it's
:58:36. > :58:38.such an important security partner in the world, would negotiate access
:58:39. > :58:42.to some of these systems. But I can tell you in
:58:43. > :58:43.the case of Europol, it would become a
:58:44. > :58:45.second-tier member, like Norway and Iceland
:58:46. > :58:47.is at the moment. It wouldn't have direct access
:58:48. > :58:49.to our database. There are other very important
:58:50. > :58:51.systems in Europe for a country, which UK
:58:52. > :58:56.would find itself being in, about whether you can continue
:58:57. > :59:03.to have these systems with the most highly
:59:04. > :59:09.sought-after intelligence, the relationships across the globe
:59:10. > :59:12.in terms of intelligence, wouldn't be a second order
:59:13. > :59:15.country in terms of Europol, with MI5 and all the security
:59:16. > :59:20.services that go with it. Surely you wouldn't demote the UK
:59:21. > :59:23.to a second-class country? Well, the United States are
:59:24. > :59:27.currently a very important member of Europol as well,
:59:28. > :59:30.but they're in a second-tier in terms of what access
:59:31. > :59:33.they've been granted. So what I'm saying is, there are
:59:34. > :59:37.legal and political things if you were to continue to negotiate
:59:38. > :59:42.your access to these systems. And I'm not saying the sky is going
:59:43. > :59:44.to fall in - I think the UK will get a pretty
:59:45. > :59:46.good deal - and my point is,
:59:47. > :59:49.it definitely won't be as good as it is now, and that therefore
:59:50. > :59:52.has potential consequences You mentioned earlier that
:59:53. > :59:56.point about the UK becoming in terms of security and
:59:57. > :00:00.in terms of intelligence. What would that entail, then? What
:00:01. > :00:04.would be the consequences of that? When I was growing up
:00:05. > :00:07.in Carmarthenshire we didn't really have a problem
:00:08. > :00:11.with international drug traffickers We didn't have child sexual
:00:12. > :00:16.exploiters working on the internet. That has changed.
:00:17. > :00:18.I think you have to see security in terms of how
:00:19. > :00:20.they affect their communities, In terms of it being now a global
:00:21. > :00:27.dimension requiring, therefore, the closest possible international
:00:28. > :00:31.partnerships for our police forces. And that moment the EU, through
:00:32. > :00:35.Europol and other mechanisms, gives that capability
:00:36. > :00:38.to police forces in Wales and around the UK,
:00:39. > :00:40.and what I'm saying is, the UK will still be
:00:41. > :00:43.a strong partner, will still be able to
:00:44. > :00:45.protect itself, it just won't be as effective,
:00:46. > :00:48.that's the point. And I think, therefore...
:00:49. > :00:50.My view, therefore, why you'd want to vote out
:00:51. > :00:54.on June 23, I really don't think
:00:55. > :00:56.security should be one of them. Lastly, just as a young man born
:00:57. > :00:59.and raised in Pontyberem, maybe some of our viewers
:01:00. > :01:01.will be thinking, "How do you end up
:01:02. > :01:03.being the head of Europol?" It is, but there are many
:01:04. > :01:07.people from Wales that have gone on to do
:01:08. > :01:09.different things in life, and I just got a few lucky
:01:10. > :01:11.breaks along the way. I went to London as a student
:01:12. > :01:14.and then found myself doing... I never forget
:01:15. > :01:16.my Welsh roots, though. My mammy is still living there,
:01:17. > :01:18.and my family as well, so I'm a regular visitor
:01:19. > :01:22.back to Gwendraeth Valley. Robin Wainwright, thank you very
:01:23. > :01:25.much for your time. Thank you. Hopefully we've helped you
:01:26. > :01:29.a little bit to decide how you'll cast your vote
:01:30. > :01:32.on June 23 - and if not, well, you've still
:01:33. > :01:35.got a little bit of time but whether or not the UK leaves
:01:36. > :01:42.or remains in the European Union is very much down to you.
:01:43. > :02:07.See you next time. David Davis will talk to is about
:02:08. > :02:12.the snoopers' charter, but that interview with John Major on the
:02:13. > :02:16.Andrew Marr Show, earlier we showed you in talking about the deceit of
:02:17. > :02:21.the Leave campaign, this is in talking about Boris Johnson's
:02:22. > :02:24.prospect of leading the party. If they continued to divide the
:02:25. > :02:29.Conservative Party, as they are doing at the present time, and if
:02:30. > :02:33.Boris has the laudable ambition, because it is laudable to become
:02:34. > :02:37.Prime Minister, he will find, if he achieves that, that he will not have
:02:38. > :02:42.the loyalty of the party he divided. Iain Duncan Smith was serially
:02:43. > :02:46.disloyal in the 1990s. When he became leader, he was surprised that
:02:47. > :02:51.no-one was loyal to him. Boris should learn from that.
:02:52. > :02:58.What was the purpose of his interview this morning?
:02:59. > :03:02.I guess number ten asked him to do it, and being a loyal supporter of a
:03:03. > :03:08.Tory party, he would do that. I guess he was trying to reduce the
:03:09. > :03:13.credibility of the Leave campaign's claim. Some irony when you consider
:03:14. > :03:17.the most incredible claim has been from George Osborne, the Treasury,
:03:18. > :03:22.in terms of his forecasts, and even what John Major said, I was his last
:03:23. > :03:29.defender in the Commons, the numbers bandying around.
:03:30. > :03:35.He said for example this controversial ?350 million was one
:03:36. > :03:41.third of that. That is half the net contribution. He said industries
:03:42. > :03:46.would face 10% levies. The car industry would, but most of
:03:47. > :03:49.the others would be up to 5%. He was not being very
:03:50. > :03:53.straightforward with the numbers. Were you surprised how personal the
:03:54. > :03:57.attacks on Boris well. We know he has long hated Iain
:03:58. > :04:05.Duncan Smith. Understandable. But saying in the
:04:06. > :04:10.hands of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, IDS, the NHS would be like
:04:11. > :04:18.a hamster in a room with a pattern. He was trashing the Tory brand.
:04:19. > :04:22.A harsh attack. I don't think it was very wise.
:04:23. > :04:24.One of the problems both sides of this campaign have had is it is too
:04:25. > :04:31.personalised. The public don't like it. After the
:04:32. > :04:34.23rd, we had to pull the party together.
:04:35. > :04:38.With that sort of attack, it is a bad idea.
:04:39. > :04:43.Sam. Let me put it this way. Whatever the result, things for the
:04:44. > :04:48.Tories will never be the same again for the rest of this Parliament.
:04:49. > :04:53.It will be very hard. Clearly with a working majority of about 18, hard
:04:54. > :04:59.to get contentious the station through, the biggest area of danger
:05:00. > :05:04.for David Cameron. He will be a zombie Prime Minister, he can't get
:05:05. > :05:07.it through the Commons, and the Lords is a different matter where
:05:08. > :05:12.legislation will get stuck. You saw the kinds of things in the
:05:13. > :05:17.Queen's Speech. With the exception of the data Bill, I can't see any of
:05:18. > :05:22.the bills will be that radical when they get passed into law. So I think
:05:23. > :05:25.there will be a successful coup after June the 23rd, that seems
:05:26. > :05:32.unlikely. Even if it is a vote to Leave.
:05:33. > :05:38.That could change things. I think David Cameron would go within his
:05:39. > :05:42.own time. In the case of a remain vote, there are up to 20 MPs who
:05:43. > :05:48.bitterly disliked David Cameron. I don't think that number has
:05:49. > :05:52.dramatically increased solely as a result of the referendum campaign.
:05:53. > :05:55.There is a safety valve, the leadership election which will
:05:56. > :06:01.happen possibly sooner than you think.
:06:02. > :06:06.There may not be an immediate coup even if the vote is to Remain.
:06:07. > :06:12.The keyword or words, zombie parliaments, there are anything
:06:13. > :06:14.between 20-50 MPs deeply disillusioned with the Prime
:06:15. > :06:19.Minister. They have a taste for revolt. The
:06:20. > :06:25.Government majority is derisory. This Government could now find it
:06:26. > :06:29.very difficult to get anything major through this potential zombie
:06:30. > :06:33.parliament. That is absolutely true. On the
:06:34. > :06:38.matter of a coup, there are a number of mischief makers within the Tory
:06:39. > :06:41.ranks who don't mind if a coup succeeds or fails, they feel the
:06:42. > :06:48.Labour opposition is so weak, they have the luxury of doing this.
:06:49. > :06:53.I think the numbers are lower than you think. I would say 20, not more
:06:54. > :06:56.than that. That is enough, given the Government
:06:57. > :07:00.majority. These are the ones that hate the
:07:01. > :07:06.regime as it were. You have another group. The problem
:07:07. > :07:09.is not if there is a Brexit victory, but if there is a very narrow Remain
:07:10. > :07:16.victory. A lot of those wanting Brexit will
:07:17. > :07:20.feel they have been cheated. The ?9 million spent on the
:07:21. > :07:25.leaflets, all of that, they will be difficult to manage.
:07:26. > :07:30.This is a Government that has found it hard to get its budget through.
:07:31. > :07:35.Almost unprecedented, it lost most of the major parts of the budget
:07:36. > :07:42.unveiled in March. Would it not be even more difficult if it is a vote
:07:43. > :07:45.to Remain, but small, to get its business through except the
:07:46. > :07:51.noncontroversial. To say it is difficult for the
:07:52. > :07:57.future is a description of the past ten months, they had two H a great
:07:58. > :08:03.answer their planned pensions reform amongst other things.
:08:04. > :08:08.The potential American trade deal. Most recently, and prior to the
:08:09. > :08:11.referendum. Things will become difficult
:08:12. > :08:16.afterwards. David Cameron will end up leading my kind of Government, it
:08:17. > :08:25.won't do very much. The basic strategic stuff. What the founders
:08:26. > :08:30.in America intended. The one bit of optimism for the Tories, it picks up
:08:31. > :08:34.on David's point, I wouldn't underestimate how many Tory MPs want
:08:35. > :08:36.is referendum done with, that includes absolutely committed
:08:37. > :08:42.leaders who don't think much of David Cameron.
:08:43. > :08:45.Interviewing Johnny Mercer, he wants it over, you can tell from his
:08:46. > :08:52.demeanour. And he wouldn't look at me but there
:08:53. > :08:56.may be another reason! We don't need to go that!
:08:57. > :08:59.Let me ask you. Given the kind of Government our panel are talking
:09:00. > :09:03.about, it is already difficult for the Government to get things done.
:09:04. > :09:07.Even more difficult after the referendum I would suggest if it is
:09:08. > :09:11.Remain by a small majority. Does that give you hope for your
:09:12. > :09:18.continued opposition to the investigatory Powers act for the
:09:19. > :09:24.police and intelligence services? Taking up on the American view, look
:09:25. > :09:31.what happened with tax credits. There were about 40 people opposing
:09:32. > :09:34.it, only two voting against it. It went to the House of Lords, got
:09:35. > :09:38.knocked back. The Government knew there was a looming rebellion.
:09:39. > :09:41.That will be the message of the future.
:09:42. > :09:46.A lot of that pressure play. The investigative powers act, large
:09:47. > :09:49.parts of it will be flayed by the House of Lords, the Government will
:09:50. > :09:53.concede. That is the way it will happen.
:09:54. > :09:58.Whether it is the approval mechanisms or the data gathered or
:09:59. > :10:01.who has access, those will be challenged.
:10:02. > :10:06.All those things will now be more at risk at least after the referendum.
:10:07. > :10:11.Maybe why they are brushing it through in the next few days.
:10:12. > :10:15.I would suggest looking at the campaign, two and a half weeks to
:10:16. > :10:22.go, in the week up to the Whitsun bank holiday, Remain one that, and
:10:23. > :10:26.overwhelming economic amount of stuff coming out.
:10:27. > :10:28.In the weeks since leading up to this weekend, Leave have probably
:10:29. > :10:35.done better. The interviews on Sky.
:10:36. > :10:39.Still all to play for. Leave goes into this week probably with a
:10:40. > :10:45.spring in its step. I think that is right. One of the
:10:46. > :10:50.mistakes of the Remain campaign was at two different points, to feel
:10:51. > :10:56.like they were heading for victory. Once in the aftermath of the visit
:10:57. > :10:59.by President Barack Obama. They thought it was a big moment that
:11:00. > :11:07.would produce a push. A couple of weeks ago, they sensed
:11:08. > :11:10.that polls were going their way, in private conversations they thought
:11:11. > :11:15.they had got it in the bag. That created hubris and a problem.
:11:16. > :11:21.They did not see coming the Australian style points system
:11:22. > :11:25.attacked by Vote Leave last weekend, setting out plans. They thought it
:11:26. > :11:30.would be a policy freak referendum campaign. That pulled the debate
:11:31. > :11:35.back into the Leave side. Is Leave thinking it can win?
:11:36. > :11:42.Privately, I think they are beginning to think they have a 50-50
:11:43. > :11:45.chance, maybe more. Previously, privately, a lot would admit they
:11:46. > :11:50.felt pessimistic. I definitely sense a shift. If you
:11:51. > :11:58.look at what happened in Scotland, it was around this time use saw
:11:59. > :12:03.polls saw an advantage -- seeing an advantage for independence.
:12:04. > :12:08.Still three weeks to go, nobody is counting their chickens.
:12:09. > :12:14.I am reliably informed Leave is ahead but that is embargoed so I
:12:15. > :12:20.didn't mention it. But they still don't think they are
:12:21. > :12:23.losing? How big a victory do they need in
:12:24. > :12:29.order to put the question to bed and preserve the Prime Minister.
:12:30. > :12:35.At least 55-45? That would do it. The fact they
:12:36. > :12:41.deployed John Major shows they are worried.
:12:42. > :12:47.John Major was the nuclear weapons. Lose or win, yes or no?
:12:48. > :12:53.Brexit, a small margin. You heard it here first. Just to
:12:54. > :12:56.mention, as well as the debate we have been discussing, I will be
:12:57. > :12:57.interviewing leading figures from both sides of
:12:58. > :13:02.Starting tomorrow at 7.30 on BBC One, with Shadow Foreign
:13:03. > :13:05.Followed on Wednesday by Chancellor George Osborne.
:13:06. > :13:07.And then it's the turn of Leave campaigners Nigel Farage
:13:08. > :13:14.I hope you can join me, it should be fun.
:13:15. > :13:17.And, of course, we're back here next week as usual at 11 o'clock
:13:18. > :13:58.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:59. > :14:03.It's home to a million people at any one time,