12/06/2016

:00:38. > :00:46.With just 11 days to go until the EU referendum,

:00:47. > :00:48.we get two campaigners to interrogate each other.

:00:49. > :00:53.Tory Chris Grayling for Leave and Labour's Mary Creagh for Remain.

:00:54. > :00:59.We'll hear from two Labour MPs who have recently

:01:00. > :01:03.declared their positions on In or Out.

:01:04. > :01:06.And is the EU putting controversial legislation on ice and pushing it

:01:07. > :01:11.off the agenda until after the referendum is out of the way?

:01:12. > :01:13.Everything difficult, everything contentious has

:01:14. > :01:22.What next for Welsh councils? until the 24th of June.

:01:23. > :01:25.The new Minister tells us he wants a new plan for reorganisation

:01:26. > :01:40.within months, and everything's up for debate.

:01:41. > :01:43.So, all the highs and the lows, the ups and downs.

:01:44. > :01:46.The European Football Championships started this weekend and I'm

:01:47. > :01:49.joined by the France, Germany and Spain of political

:01:50. > :01:54.commentary, Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley Brewer

:01:55. > :01:55.and Anushka Asthana, who'll be tweeting

:01:56. > :02:02.So a series of stark economic warnings from David Cameron who says

:02:03. > :02:06.he might not be able to protect spending on pensions,

:02:07. > :02:11.the NHS and defence if the UK votes to leave the EU.

:02:12. > :02:14.The Prime Minister said the strain on public finances caused by Brexit

:02:15. > :02:15.would even threaten the "triple lock" which guarantees

:02:16. > :02:24.Here is David Cameron talking to Andrew Marr earlier.

:02:25. > :02:27.The fact is, if we did face a 20-40 billion black hole

:02:28. > :02:29.in our public finances, we would have to make

:02:30. > :02:36.Our pensions promise is based on a growing and succeeding economy,

:02:37. > :02:38.and all of the experts, and I agree with them,

:02:39. > :02:41.most people in business agree, if we leave the single market,

:02:42. > :02:44.if we cut ourselves off from the most important market,

:02:45. > :02:50.our economy will be smaller and that has consequences.

:02:51. > :02:52.Cabinet minister, Leader of the House Chris Grayling

:02:53. > :03:08.If the Prime Minister is saying we voted to leave, he cannot, in fact,

:03:09. > :03:12.implement key parts of the 2015 manifesto, what legitimacy would

:03:13. > :03:17.your government have to continue? Well, I don't buy the argument. I

:03:18. > :03:20.have to completely disagree with him on this, it's only six months since

:03:21. > :03:25.he was telling us if we chose to leave the European Union we would do

:03:26. > :03:30.fine and well. This figure, 20 billion or 40 billion, it is based

:03:31. > :03:34.on analysis by the National Institute Of Economic And Social

:03:35. > :03:38.Research, it assumes the pound goes down, making exports cheaper, but

:03:39. > :03:41.people buy fewer, which makes no sense, and it assumes we lose the

:03:42. > :03:45.ability to sell within Europe, when the reality is that we buy far more

:03:46. > :03:49.from Europe than they do from us. It would cost French, German, Spanish

:03:50. > :03:53.and Italian jobs if they don't continue trading normally. He might

:03:54. > :03:58.be right or wrong, but is it not remarkable that he should say, if

:03:59. > :04:03.you vote to leave, all the things I promised I would do if you elected

:04:04. > :04:08.me, the key things, defence, the NHS, the triple lock on pensions,

:04:09. > :04:11.that is all of the agenda? I'm very surprised he has chosen to use those

:04:12. > :04:15.examples. I don't believe that is right, I don't believe we would back

:04:16. > :04:18.away from manifesto promises and I don't believe we would need to. I

:04:19. > :04:23.think the economic statistics behind the figures he has quoted do not

:04:24. > :04:26.hold up. They include some inherent contradictions and assumptions of

:04:27. > :04:30.doom and gloom. We buy more from the rest of Europe than they do from us,

:04:31. > :04:35.they are going to want to continue trading in the UK market. If we do

:04:36. > :04:39.leave, there was a downturn, because of uncertainty, it might not be long

:04:40. > :04:46.or deep, but if there was, it would hit public finances? It would mean

:04:47. > :04:51.tax rises, more public spending because of the extra welfare due to

:04:52. > :05:02.unemployment, or a, nation or both and more borrowing? Well, the

:05:03. > :05:06.question is if. If you look at what some of the international bodies

:05:07. > :05:10.have been saying, we heard from the IMF, that got the figures so wrong

:05:11. > :05:12.to matter years ago it had to apologise to the Chancellor. The

:05:13. > :05:17.chief economist at the World Bank says he thinks our trade situation

:05:18. > :05:22.would improve if we left the European Union. What you make of the

:05:23. > :05:27.Prime Minister's strategy? There is a certain level of sheer panic in

:05:28. > :05:32.his eyes, if you look very closely. Amid the tiredness, because we

:05:33. > :05:36.learned today he did 357 media appearances as part of this

:05:37. > :05:41.referendum campaign. I think what he is trying to do is to take on the

:05:42. > :05:45.argument that Chris and the Leave campaign are making around

:05:46. > :05:47.migration, saying, we know you are really worried about your borders

:05:48. > :05:52.and you want to close them, you want to do it because it is affecting

:05:53. > :05:54.your livelihood. The Prime Minister is saying, actually, there is

:05:55. > :05:57.something else here that might affect your livelihood and are

:05:58. > :06:02.really trying to get into the idea that it is going to affect people's

:06:03. > :06:07.lives. Even to the extent of saying all the things I promised you, key

:06:08. > :06:10.things on defence spending, extra money for the NHS, the triple lock

:06:11. > :06:15.on pensions, all of these things that probably got him elected, or

:06:16. > :06:19.were a key part, he is prepared to say I can't do any of that? He's

:06:20. > :06:23.just breaching even more of the trust of the British people. Another

:06:24. > :06:26.key pledge he made was that he was going to get immigration down to

:06:27. > :06:30.tens of thousands. He knows he has broken that because of the EU and

:06:31. > :06:33.other failings in immigration policy. The reality is that they are

:06:34. > :06:37.so desperate in Downing Street now because they thought they would be

:06:38. > :06:43.ten points ahead at this point. It is still very close, if you would

:06:44. > :06:49.still say that Remain would edge it on the day. He has even deployed his

:06:50. > :06:55.own wife, she was never that Keane at even turning up at party

:06:56. > :06:59.conferences and kissing on stage. He has got someone at Downing Street to

:07:00. > :07:04.write an article from some Cameron. That is how desperate they are,

:07:05. > :07:07.which is telling. When I spoke to the Chancellor on Wednesday night in

:07:08. > :07:12.the interview and I raised the issue of pensions, I said, why would the

:07:13. > :07:16.state pension be hit either way, in or out, because we have the triple

:07:17. > :07:22.lock. By definition, it cannot fall in real terms, in or out. He didn't

:07:23. > :07:27.really dispute that. He went along with that. Today, we have the Prime

:07:28. > :07:31.Minister, only a few days later, saying we might not even be able to

:07:32. > :07:36.afford the triple lock if you voted to leave. What is happening? What

:07:37. > :07:40.makes it doubly confusing is that it was Cameron, above anybody else,

:07:41. > :07:43.that was incredibly possessive over the pension commitment and the

:07:44. > :07:47.pension benefit commitment in the previous parliament. Even when he

:07:48. > :07:52.came under internal lobbying to soft in the policy, to create fiscal room

:07:53. > :07:55.to maybe soft and cuts elsewhere, he resisted it. So he deserves

:07:56. > :08:00.criticism now for seemingly weakening the position. In many

:08:01. > :08:04.ways, Cameron himself is the least important Remain politician for the

:08:05. > :08:12.next 11 days. They need Labour voters to vote by a margin of 2-1,

:08:13. > :08:15.if not 3-1, four Remain to win the referendum. You don't do that with a

:08:16. > :08:21.Prime Minister they do not like and voted against. For the remaining 11

:08:22. > :08:25.days, I think that Remain need to push Cameron less and Jeremy Corbyn

:08:26. > :08:30.more, if he is willing to do it. It's not that, Gordon Brown, who we

:08:31. > :08:33.saw do a video, Harriet Harman, a few other Labour figures. I think

:08:34. > :08:39.that is where it hinges, the Labour voters, especially in the north of

:08:40. > :08:44.England. If it is down to Labour to Pollitt off, some of the leave

:08:45. > :08:51.campaign should be opening the champagne early? -- pull it off. The

:08:52. > :08:54.vast majority of Labour MPs want people to vote to Remain. Some

:08:55. > :08:58.people were apparently in tears when they saw the latest poll. The Labour

:08:59. > :09:03.problem in heartlands goes deeper than this. I don't think it is

:09:04. > :09:06.whether or not David Cameron is campaigning or Jeremy Corbyn. In

:09:07. > :09:10.some of those seats, there are the biggest fears about immigration, and

:09:11. > :09:14.they wanted to see Labour talking their language. For all that said, I

:09:15. > :09:17.think Chris and his colleagues also have questions to answer. You can't

:09:18. > :09:24.just dismiss all of these reports like the IFS report, saying there

:09:25. > :09:29.might be a ?40 billion black hole. I think only 15 Labour MPs have come

:09:30. > :09:32.out for Leave, but 40% of Labour voters are Eurosceptic, and they

:09:33. > :09:38.will be switching straight to Ukip, the next set of elections. They are

:09:39. > :09:45.already the second party in the north of the country. If you are a

:09:46. > :09:50.sensible Labour MP, you should be keeping quiet about Remain. Is the

:09:51. > :09:54.biggest danger, in most referendums there are swings to the status quo

:09:55. > :10:00.in the final days, it has a built-in advantage. The Scottish referendum,

:10:01. > :10:03.the alternative micro referendum. Don't you risk that? We have to make

:10:04. > :10:06.sure that doesn't happen and campaign relentlessly over the last

:10:07. > :10:13.ten days. We have to keep getting messages across. We have new

:10:14. > :10:18.revelations about the discussions taking place between the European

:10:19. > :10:22.Union and Turkey. You will be dealing later in the programme with

:10:23. > :10:28.this wave of more Europe due to come. There are all kind's of

:10:29. > :10:36.different things that are going to hit the airwaves the moment we voted

:10:37. > :10:40.to remain, if we do. I hope people realise that more Europe is on the

:10:41. > :10:42.way and they have to votes to leave. You are not going away yet.

:10:43. > :10:45.Last week we had campaigners for In and Out interrogate each other.

:10:46. > :10:46.And we're going to repeat that today.

:10:47. > :10:50.The Conservative Leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling,

:10:51. > :10:53.who wants to Leave and the Labour MP Mary Creagh, who's

:10:54. > :10:56.They will put each other on the spot.

:10:57. > :10:59.I'll mostly just be sitting back to watch.

:11:00. > :11:06.Maybe I'll have a cup of tea. A short while ago they tossed a coin

:11:07. > :11:11.to see who goes first. Mary was the winner, or loser, depending on your

:11:12. > :11:16.point of view. She has chosen to cross-examine Chris. So, before we

:11:17. > :11:17.start, let's see Chris's pitch to undecided voters as to why they

:11:18. > :11:33.should vote to leave. In ten days' time, we are going to

:11:34. > :11:37.be taking the biggest decision of this country has taken for a

:11:38. > :11:40.generation. Should we remain or leave? What would be our future

:11:41. > :11:44.relationship with Europe, given the fact we are already the biggest

:11:45. > :11:49.customer for European products like these ones? When you take your

:11:50. > :11:53.decision, I want you to ask yourself one simple question. Do I want to

:11:54. > :11:57.live in a country that is free to take its own decisions in the

:11:58. > :12:00.interests of its people? Or am I happy to be in a country that has

:12:01. > :12:08.given up control over key decisions that affect all of our futures? We

:12:09. > :12:11.have already given up control over a whole variety of areas of crucial

:12:12. > :12:13.importance to us. We are not allowed to forge our own free-trade

:12:14. > :12:15.agreements with Commonwealth partners, we are not allowed to set

:12:16. > :12:19.limits on the number of people that come and work here and is

:12:20. > :12:24.immigration pressures. All of that has happened already. There is more

:12:25. > :12:28.to come. At the same time, we are spending a fortune on being part of

:12:29. > :12:33.the EU. Our contribution is ?350 million overall every week. We only

:12:34. > :12:36.see half of that money back, money that could be spent on our

:12:37. > :12:40.priorities like the National Health Service and cutting fuel bills. If

:12:41. > :12:46.you have any worries that if you vote to leave on the 23rd of June,

:12:47. > :12:50.the Germans are still going to sell these cars, the French will still

:12:51. > :12:54.sell us our wines and cheeses. What we will have done is taken back

:12:55. > :12:58.control of our country. We will be in charge of the key decisions that

:12:59. > :13:01.matter to all our futures. We will be a properly independent country

:13:02. > :13:10.again and that is what I want for all our children and grandchildren.

:13:11. > :13:13.Here are risk Grayling and Mary Cray. Mary has seven minutes to

:13:14. > :13:23.interrogate Chris. Vote Leave have claimed that EU

:13:24. > :13:27.regulations cost businesses ?600 million a week. It doesn't take into

:13:28. > :13:31.account the benefits of the regulations, does it? The key issue

:13:32. > :13:36.for most businesses in this country, you have to remember that most

:13:37. > :13:39.businesses do no trade at all within the European Union, most operate

:13:40. > :13:43.just in the United Kingdom. They are all subject to the regulations that

:13:44. > :13:47.international businesses have to deal with. Typically, they are small

:13:48. > :13:51.businesses, they don't have the staff, the compliance to do it. It

:13:52. > :13:55.places a huge extra cost on small business. I've talked to small

:13:56. > :13:59.businesses up and down the country. Again and again, they tell me they

:14:00. > :14:04.have to do box ticking and form filling. It is nothing to do with

:14:05. > :14:07.the environment they are operating in, it takes a huge amount of time

:14:08. > :14:11.and money that could be spent on hiring more people. The same report

:14:12. > :14:16.shows that these measures have a net benefit to the UK, so we will not

:14:17. > :14:20.save ?600 million a week if we leave? There is not a cash saving of

:14:21. > :14:23.?600 million a week. What you do is free of business to do new things,

:14:24. > :14:28.to take advantage of new opportunities. On day one, you don't

:14:29. > :14:35.just save ?600 million on the spot. As we gain the freedom to reduce the

:14:36. > :14:37.regulation on small business, not to reduce worker rights, not to make

:14:38. > :14:40.workplaces more dangerous, but to end some of the box ticking and form

:14:41. > :14:45.filling that comes from Brussels, those businesses have more time to

:14:46. > :14:49.sell... The figure includes the cost of rights at work, the rights of

:14:50. > :14:55.four weeks paid holiday, paid maternity leave and equal pay for

:14:56. > :14:58.fixed term and agency workers. Which would you scrap? We've always been

:14:59. > :15:02.better than the rest of the European Union on workers' rights. One of the

:15:03. > :15:06.things I would not do, after the gulf of Mexico oil disaster, even

:15:07. > :15:11.though we have the best safety standards in the North Sea, they

:15:12. > :15:15.decided to rewrite them. No benefit to safety or businesses, at a time

:15:16. > :15:18.when jobs are being lost in the North Sea, companies have had to

:15:19. > :15:28.deal with extra costs, to no benefit at all except to keep bureaucrats

:15:29. > :15:32.happy. You've been clear we would not save ?600 million from leaving

:15:33. > :15:36.the EU. Hundreds of thousands of women lost tens of thousands of

:15:37. > :15:41.pounds when you changed the state qualifying age for the pension. Why

:15:42. > :15:45.should they rely on you to protect their rights? You changed the

:15:46. > :15:49.goalposts. It was the Labour Party that started changing the retirement

:15:50. > :15:53.age, we've both chosen to do that because the life expectancy of

:15:54. > :15:58.people in this country is rising. Inevitably, as retirement years

:15:59. > :16:01.become longer, it becomes more of a challenge, and both we and the

:16:02. > :16:07.Labour Party have said because of that we need to raise the state

:16:08. > :16:10.retirement age. You would surely agree as a champion of equality it

:16:11. > :16:13.is sensible for men and women to retire at the same age. I want to

:16:14. > :16:18.move on to what you said about the Commonwealth. We do more trade with

:16:19. > :16:22.Ireland than 53, Love countries put together. Europe puzzles would mean

:16:23. > :16:26.we'd need to have a land border between Ireland and Northern

:16:27. > :16:31.Ireland. I will that help? I don't buy that. We had the Common travel

:16:32. > :16:35.area since 1923, before the European Union was streamed off. There's no

:16:36. > :16:45.reason for that to change. -- dreams. The issue is about living

:16:46. > :16:48.and working in the UK, getting a national insurance number,

:16:49. > :16:52.registering for state support. That creates a back door for EU migrants

:16:53. > :17:00.to coming to Northern Ireland and Ahern has decided Theresa Villiers,

:17:01. > :17:05.because he says we are talking about EU citizens and non-EU nations

:17:06. > :17:08.seeking a way into Britain. He says smuggling would undergo a revival,

:17:09. > :17:14.endless profit-making opportunities for criminals. You're talking about

:17:15. > :17:19.illegal immigration, I'm talking about a situation where we have

:17:20. > :17:25.77,000 people a year arriving just looking for a job. I'm talking about

:17:26. > :17:29.Northern Ireland. We've got 200 roads between the countries. Are you

:17:30. > :17:35.going to have an army of bureaucrats checking passports? We never have

:17:36. > :17:38.and we will not. If you are a European citizen crossing the border

:17:39. > :17:41.and seeking to get a job, if you don't have the right to work year,

:17:42. > :17:49.there will be set rules in place so you demonstrate you have a job

:17:50. > :17:54.before you come to the UK. You will not be able to work legally. What is

:17:55. > :17:58.your alternative economic plan? Do you want the UK to be like

:17:59. > :18:06.Switzerland? I want the UK to be like the UK. The reason we will do

:18:07. > :18:09.trade deals with the EU, Carry On trading freely, is because we buy

:18:10. > :18:17.more from them than they buy from us. I buy more from Lidl than they

:18:18. > :18:24.buy from me but I would say the economic power in that relationship

:18:25. > :18:30.is on Lidl. They sent 8% of exports to us. Where is the power in that

:18:31. > :18:35.relationship? I think the power is with you, the consumer, because you

:18:36. > :18:40.can go to another supermarket. In what world would the French say to

:18:41. > :18:44.their farmers, we are going to endanger your livelihood by taking

:18:45. > :18:49.away your ability to sell your products to the UK? We represent 17%

:18:50. > :18:56.of exports. Why would they put that in danger? Millions of EU jobs

:18:57. > :19:02.depend on British consumers. One of your economists have said about to

:19:03. > :19:06.leave would mostly eliminate Britain's manufacturing centre and

:19:07. > :19:11.Michael Gove cannot guarantee people would not lose their jobs. Are you

:19:12. > :19:15.happy with 18% of the British economy is stopping happening? He is

:19:16. > :19:23.one of your economists. I don't accept that. So your saying he is

:19:24. > :19:27.wrong? On this, I think he is. Is Michael Gove wrong when he says he

:19:28. > :19:32.cannot guarantee jobs? Look at Patrick Bamford. Your colleague,

:19:33. > :19:40.Michael Gove, said he cannot guarantee jobs. He said he could not

:19:41. > :19:48.Darren T the jobs of the British members of the European Parliament

:19:49. > :19:53.-- could not guarantee. On manufacturing, look at James Dyson,

:19:54. > :19:57.these are people who are captains of industry, saying we should leave.

:19:58. > :20:05.Have you ever join the gym? I never have. I see from your register of

:20:06. > :20:11.interests you are an honorary member of the RSC club. If a member

:20:12. > :20:14.cancelled their membership on Monday and turned up expecting to use the

:20:15. > :20:26.swimming pool, what with the other members say? What would they say? We

:20:27. > :20:32.will need to leave it there. It is now the turn of Mary to be cross

:20:33. > :20:40.examined. Let's look at her pitch as to why voters should vote to remain?

:20:41. > :20:44.In 1940, Churchill urged towns and cities to fund raise for the war

:20:45. > :20:48.effort. These towns outside Wakefield he did that call and

:20:49. > :20:57.raised enough money to buy a Spitfire. This Polish pilot flew

:20:58. > :21:06.that plane in the Royal air force. He shot down four German planes

:21:07. > :21:14.before losing his life over France. His bravery and that of thousands of

:21:15. > :21:21.other service men is commemorated at this memorial. In 1000 years of

:21:22. > :21:27.European history we've had 70 years of peace, largely because of the

:21:28. > :21:31.European Union. Billions of pounds of British exports and millions of

:21:32. > :21:38.jobs and on our membership of the EU. The pressure on the NHS, schools

:21:39. > :21:41.and housing is not caused by European immigration but I had right

:21:42. > :21:49.Tory Government failing to and staff the NHS, cutting budgets for schools

:21:50. > :21:55.and overseeing the lowest house building since the 1920s. When you

:21:56. > :21:59.thought on June 23, remember this pilot, Polish immigrant, shot down

:22:00. > :22:06.over France, for the freedoms we enjoy today. Remember as well that

:22:07. > :22:12.the people that want us to leave are not friends and allies in the USA,

:22:13. > :22:20.but right wing politicians, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Vladimir

:22:21. > :22:25.Putin. Ask yourself, is that a risk you are willing to take with your

:22:26. > :22:34.children's futures in this battle for Britain? As before, you've got

:22:35. > :22:39.seven minutes to question merely. The trade figures show we have the

:22:40. > :22:43.biggest ever trade deficit in the EU. Why do you think are trading

:22:44. > :22:49.position has become so much worse in the single market? I think it is

:22:50. > :22:53.important we stay in the EU, it gives us the largest domestic market

:22:54. > :23:00.in the world, a market of 500 million people, and as I said to

:23:01. > :23:04.you, it is important that we stay because 80% of the economy depends

:23:05. > :23:10.on services freely traded and 20% of the economy is manufacturing. Those

:23:11. > :23:17.sectors will be put at risk if we leave. You did not answer my

:23:18. > :23:22.question. Why do you think the trading position has got worse over

:23:23. > :23:27.the years? I think our economy is changing, we've had a big recession,

:23:28. > :23:33.and we've had six years of Conservative government. I think

:23:34. > :23:38.Britain is better off, safer and more secure as part of the European

:23:39. > :23:43.Union. The issue around trading figures, do we create more jobs and

:23:44. > :23:51.growth by remaining or should we take this leap in the dark with

:23:52. > :23:57.security and prosperity? The trade position was getting worse even in

:23:58. > :24:06.the Labour years. Why is that? The trade position is that we do more

:24:07. > :24:10.trade with Ireland than with 53 members of the Commonwealth. That is

:24:11. > :24:15.something your campaign wants to put at risk and I don't think that is a

:24:16. > :24:23.risk we can take. It is important we stay in, we work on closing that

:24:24. > :24:29.deficit, but we must not wreck the economy and have a new recession by

:24:30. > :24:33.voting to leave. That is what every single economic forecaster has said

:24:34. > :24:37.will happen. We will check recession, the economy will shrink,

:24:38. > :24:41.and the trade deficit will get worse. We would be outside the club

:24:42. > :24:50.and they would tell us what rules we would abide by. Why did they help

:24:51. > :24:55.make the position worse by moving the production of Ford transit vans

:24:56. > :25:03.from Southampton to Turkey. I don't know about that, but what is

:25:04. > :25:07.clear... They gave grants to Turkey to move production from Southampton

:25:08. > :25:16.to Turkey. It helped contribute to making it worse. I don't accept they

:25:17. > :25:23.did that, I don't know about the details, but in a globalised world,

:25:24. > :25:29.big companies are looking at this referendum, making decisions, we got

:25:30. > :25:34.investment in the north-west, they think, if we are no longer the

:25:35. > :25:41.Gateway to the European market we will not receive foreign direct

:25:42. > :25:49.investment into the economy, harming jobs, growth, and the economy of the

:25:50. > :25:56.UK. In that market, why do you think unemployment fell and is 50% in

:25:57. > :26:00.Spain? Unemployment in those countries is unacceptably high and

:26:01. > :26:05.in some cases that is because of structural factors at work. When I

:26:06. > :26:10.was working in Brussels, the unemployment rate was always double

:26:11. > :26:13.and there has been structurally higher levels of unemployment. There

:26:14. > :26:22.is also the austerity policies that have been pursued by the European

:26:23. > :26:28.Union. There have been imbalances in those markets, Spain had a market

:26:29. > :26:34.based on selling houses, Greece had an economy where nobody collected

:26:35. > :26:39.taxes properly. These have been shown up by the recession, leading

:26:40. > :26:43.to consequences. Are you in favour of the UK having the ability to set

:26:44. > :26:47.limits on the number of EU citizens who come and work here? What I want

:26:48. > :26:53.us to do is have access to the single market. We are outside of the

:26:54. > :26:57.passport free Schengen zone, we are not part of the asylum policy. We

:26:58. > :27:01.choose the number of asylum seekers that come to this country. Your

:27:02. > :27:07.government has control over who comes here from outside the EU.

:27:08. > :27:12.There is more migration from outside the EU than from within the U. The

:27:13. > :27:17.question is, that free movement of people is one of the factors that

:27:18. > :27:22.gives us access. People have concerns. Do we throw the baby out

:27:23. > :27:27.with the bath water and wreck the economy with a vote to leave? You

:27:28. > :27:35.did not answer my question. Are you in favour of having any ability to

:27:36. > :27:40.set limits on the number of people from the EU who live and work here?

:27:41. > :27:45.Your Prime Minister has negotiated an opt out so that people who come

:27:46. > :27:49.here have to contribute to the economy for four years before they

:27:50. > :27:57.can access housing, social benefits, except try. -- etc. I think that is

:27:58. > :28:02.welcome and it is important that your government starts making

:28:03. > :28:06.investment in the NHS, housing, and in schools, the investment we need

:28:07. > :28:09.for those coming here. There are more people coming here from outside

:28:10. > :28:15.than from inside. You have control of that. Why are you not stopping

:28:16. > :28:20.it? Do you think people should be able to come from elsewhere in the

:28:21. > :28:25.EU to look for a job? There are 77,000 people who turn up at

:28:26. > :28:31.Victoria Coach Station or to near Port. Do you think that is OK? I

:28:32. > :28:37.think we have over a million people living in Spain have chosen to

:28:38. > :28:42.retire there, live and work there. We have 2 million British citizens

:28:43. > :28:45.who have chosen to live, work and invest in other European Union

:28:46. > :28:51.countries. When people come here to look for work, they look for work

:28:52. > :28:56.and generally find it, and we know that they generally put more into

:28:57. > :28:59.the economy than they take out. You are happy for people to come in

:29:00. > :29:06.unlimited numbers to look for work here. I've said there are more

:29:07. > :29:12.people coming from outside the EU, given visas from your government,

:29:13. > :29:16.and people make a contribution. What we don't want to do is throw the

:29:17. > :29:22.baby out with the bath water, wrecked the economy. That would mean

:29:23. > :29:27.less money for public sector services, and a weaker economy.

:29:28. > :29:31.You're happy that there should be no limits. More people come from

:29:32. > :29:33.outside the EU than come from inside.

:29:34. > :29:40.One of the main arguments of the Leave campaign is that the EU

:29:41. > :29:44.But are there signs that several EU initiatives have been put on ice

:29:45. > :29:47.or pushed off the agenda in an effort to avoid

:29:48. > :29:48.stirring up controversy until after the referendum?

:29:49. > :29:51.Critics have suggested that the Budget and proposals paving

:29:52. > :29:55.the way for a so-called EU army are being kept secret.

:29:56. > :29:57.Others suggest some awkward legislation like new eco-friendly

:29:58. > :29:59.regulations banning some kitchen appliances like toasters could be

:30:00. > :30:22.The familiar sights, things people expect to see in this

:30:23. > :30:33.great European city, the administrative home of the EU.

:30:34. > :30:36.But, underneath it all, there's something else.

:30:37. > :30:39.A place only a few people know about.

:30:40. > :30:46.The Musee des Egouts - The Sewer Museum.

:30:47. > :30:52.Do you get to see them on a daily basis?

:30:53. > :31:01.So, there are still some surprises lurking here in Brussels.

:31:02. > :31:03.The EU's critics say it is doing the same thing, that there

:31:04. > :31:08.is some nasty business still in the pipeline.

:31:09. > :31:11.They are keeping everything back until after the 24th,

:31:12. > :31:22.and then there's going to be a deluge, a tsunami.

:31:23. > :31:24.There's going to be all sorts of problems that

:31:25. > :31:27.on others, regulations they've held back, especially on things

:31:28. > :31:31.This is things like the Port Services Directive, which is ruinous

:31:32. > :31:34.Things like the licensing for art imports, which is a disaster

:31:35. > :31:37.The banning of high-power electrical appliances.

:31:38. > :31:39.And then, a little bit further down the line,

:31:40. > :31:41.more bailouts, higher budget contributions and, ultimately,

:31:42. > :31:43.the harmonisation of military capacity, what the European

:31:44. > :31:44.Commission describes as the strategic necessity

:31:45. > :31:56.Is the commission holding back on certain legislation that would be

:31:57. > :32:03.The commission is not saving up proposals.

:32:04. > :32:05.We are continuing to work on the basis of our

:32:06. > :32:12.Now, as to the question about the EU army, yes,

:32:13. > :32:15.I can also say very clearly that we have no plans

:32:16. > :32:22.But there are those in the European Parliament who think

:32:23. > :32:26.Britain's referendum is playing a role in delaying EU business.

:32:27. > :32:28.That's exactly what happened to the EU budget, according

:32:29. > :32:30.to the vice chair of the European Parliament's

:32:31. > :32:33.We would normally have the budget by now.

:32:34. > :32:38.It is being delayed, yes.

:32:39. > :32:46.I think everyone knows that Brexit and the vote, the referendum,

:32:47. > :32:52.There is certainly the migration reason for delaying it.

:32:53. > :32:55.But then, on the other hand, in politics commuting to say

:32:56. > :33:05.that this is the reason, then there are other things.

:33:06. > :33:09.The Green MEP that works on regulation to make kitchen

:33:10. > :33:10.appliances more eco-friendly says toasters were never

:33:11. > :33:17.Is there a sense here that there is much business in the EU

:33:18. > :33:20.being held up before the British referendum?

:33:21. > :33:23.Of course, the EU commission is very cautious, some legislative proposals

:33:24. > :33:33.We do that because we do not want to create negative stories,

:33:34. > :33:37.which often are completely out of the blue and without any proof,

:33:38. > :33:41.because that is the reality of the British media.

:33:42. > :33:46.The Toaster Unit is somewhere, hidden in a secret, locked corridor.

:33:47. > :33:49.The Toaster Unit is what some journalists have called a special

:33:50. > :33:52.task force set up within the EU commission to deal with issues

:33:53. > :33:58.So called because of those stories in the British press that the EU had

:33:59. > :34:01.decided to shelve plans to change our toasters.

:34:02. > :34:03.It's led by the father of British Eurocrats,

:34:04. > :34:12.He has been here since the 70s, plays cricket, drinks tea,

:34:13. > :34:15.kind of understands some of what may explode in the UK.

:34:16. > :34:18.But we do know there is a British task force that has been dubbed

:34:19. > :34:23.Is that not evidence that you are at least prepared to hold

:34:24. > :34:28.I appreciate the effort to introduce into the commission pressroom

:34:29. > :34:32.tabloid terminology, there are issues to be addressed,

:34:33. > :34:35.Parliamentary questions to be answered.

:34:36. > :34:39.There is a whole internal work of coordination

:34:40. > :34:42.between the services, advice to the commission.

:34:43. > :34:45.So there is nothing special, extraordinary or toaster

:34:46. > :34:52.related aspects in the work of our colleagues.

:34:53. > :34:55.With less than two weeks to go until the referendum,

:34:56. > :34:57.it's maybe not surprising those in Brussels are keen

:34:58. > :35:00.the British public see the EU's best side.

:35:01. > :35:03.But, for others, it belies a "selfie-interest" -

:35:04. > :35:15.exactly what those wanting to leave say is wrong with the EU.

:35:16. > :35:21.We are joined from Shipley by the Labour MEP Richard Corbett.

:35:22. > :35:24.He is a former advisor to the President of the European

:35:25. > :35:26.Council so knows the workings of the EU very well.

:35:27. > :35:32.To your knowledge, is The Financial Times right to report that the EU

:35:33. > :35:38.Commission has delayed a second eco-friendly assault on household

:35:39. > :35:44.goods such as hairdryers and hostess trolleys until after the referendum?

:35:45. > :35:49.You know, in general, it is one of those scare stories, isn't it? They

:35:50. > :35:52.are about to spring proposals on us and they are holding them back. The

:35:53. > :35:57.nastier and worse they are, the better it is for the story. When you

:35:58. > :36:03.look into it, it is something as banal as the design of household

:36:04. > :36:07.appliances, to save people money and make them more efficient, not

:36:08. > :36:12.limiting their power but making them more efficient. Why were The

:36:13. > :36:18.Financial Times, probably the most pro-EU paper in the United Kingdom

:36:19. > :36:23.run a scare story? The Financial Times is also keen to ensure

:36:24. > :36:31.balance, it gives a say to each side. This is a news story, not an

:36:32. > :36:34.opinion piece? The question is, surely, so what? The European

:36:35. > :36:39.Commission only proposes, it is not the side. The proposals have to come

:36:40. > :36:42.to the Council of ministers, with a British minister around the table,

:36:43. > :36:46.answer to the European Parliament, for a decision. We are part of the

:36:47. > :36:50.decision taking process. It is not them telling us what to do, it is

:36:51. > :36:55.sitting around the table with our neighbouring countries to work out

:36:56. > :36:57.common rules for the common market to protect consumers, protect the

:36:58. > :37:02.environment or whatever the subject might be. What is wrong with that?

:37:03. > :37:07.What about the report in the Sunday Times this morning from diplomatic

:37:08. > :37:14.cable traffic that it looks like the deal between the EU and Turkey on

:37:15. > :37:16.controlling migration isn't going so well, and they are worried that

:37:17. > :37:20.Turkey might just open the floodgates again, but they are

:37:21. > :37:26.keeping it under wraps until after the vote on June the 23rd? Is that

:37:27. > :37:29.another scare story? I think the ongoing negotiations with Turkey

:37:30. > :37:34.have had their ups and downs for several months now. That is a very

:37:35. > :37:37.difficult situation. It would be no easier if we were outside the

:37:38. > :37:42.European Union or in. The flood of refugees coming out of Syria, going

:37:43. > :37:47.through Turkey and other countries, some in, some outside the EU like

:37:48. > :37:51.Macedonia and Serbia, that needs a cooperative effort at European level

:37:52. > :37:55.to try to reach agreement to handle that better. It is far better that

:37:56. > :37:59.we are in those negotiations than peripheral to them. It is in our

:38:00. > :38:09.interest to our say. What about moves to an EU army? It's the,

:38:10. > :38:11.quote, the framing of a progressive defence policy that might lead to a

:38:12. > :38:19.common defence. Why would there not be moves to having a EU army? The

:38:20. > :38:22.operational word is might. If you look at the procedure, it needs the

:38:23. > :38:30.unanimous consent of every single member state. By the way, in law, in

:38:31. > :38:32.Britain now, such a transfer of responsibilities to the European

:38:33. > :38:37.Union would require another referendum. Nothing like that can

:38:38. > :38:42.possibly happen without the British people agreeing with it. What I'm

:38:43. > :38:46.trying to find out, is the idea... The idea has been around since the

:38:47. > :38:50.early 1950s, the French national parliament rejected it in 1954.

:38:51. > :38:54.Various people come out and say, wouldn't it be a good idea? And it

:38:55. > :38:59.has never happened. It may never happen, but it doesn't mean it

:39:00. > :39:02.won't. Many things have happened that you would think would never

:39:03. > :39:08.have happened 40 years ago. Jean-Claude Juncker wants a EU army,

:39:09. > :39:13.that is one powerful voice in favour? So do various people, but

:39:14. > :39:16.the commission can't decide it, it can only make suggestions. It is the

:39:17. > :39:21.member states. Every single member state has to agree, so it's not

:39:22. > :39:24.going to happen. Well, we don't know, do we? There are many things

:39:25. > :39:28.we were told would not happen, but they do. I'm trying to work out why

:39:29. > :39:35.people are not talking about these things at the moment. Not without

:39:36. > :39:39.our agreement, Andrew. The German defence minister says that the

:39:40. > :39:43.future belongs to a European army, it would strengthen Europe's

:39:44. > :39:47.security. We are told a German white Paper on this has been postponed

:39:48. > :39:53.until after the referendum. There is a second powerful voice in favour of

:39:54. > :39:58.it? Maybe it would, maybe it would not be a strengthening of European

:39:59. > :40:01.defence. The point is, for that to happen you would need a British

:40:02. > :40:05.government to agree it and it is enshrined in our national law that

:40:06. > :40:19.the decision, itself, would need a new referendum. Of course lots of

:40:20. > :40:23.people think X, Y, Z would happen, but they could not happen without

:40:24. > :40:28.our agreement. Officials in Brussels are talking about or preparing

:40:29. > :40:33.papers on a new treaty, higher budget, a EU intelligence service, a

:40:34. > :40:41.European army, more economic integration, new powers over health

:40:42. > :40:47.policy, scrapping zero rate VAT, mandatory sharing of gas, even a

:40:48. > :40:50.common position on the IMF. We know that in the years ahead, some of

:40:51. > :40:55.that, by no means all, some of that will happen, won't it? It is the job

:40:56. > :40:58.of the European Commission to think of ideas, where it thinks it might

:40:59. > :41:02.be a good idea for the whole of Europe to work together on those

:41:03. > :41:07.subjects. But the commission does not decide. It puts that to the

:41:08. > :41:09.member states, the Council of ministers, a minister from every

:41:10. > :41:13.country around the table. Some of the things you have mentioned would

:41:14. > :41:16.even need a treaty change. All of that needs the agreement of the

:41:17. > :41:21.member states. The commission will come up with all kind of ideas,

:41:22. > :41:25.weird and wonderful, or sensible. That is its job. It is up to our

:41:26. > :41:30.ministers to accept or reject them. In many cases, it needs the approval

:41:31. > :41:35.of parliament, or even a referendum, according to British law. We are

:41:36. > :41:39.told this by people like you time and time again, it's not going to

:41:40. > :41:45.happen, if it does it will need our approval and the rest of it. We were

:41:46. > :41:49.told by a Labour minister... It might happen, if we were to agree to

:41:50. > :41:52.it. We were told by a Labour minister that the Charter of

:41:53. > :42:03.fundamental rights would have no more legal status than the Beano.

:42:04. > :42:07.Now it turns out it is written into the European Court of Justice and

:42:08. > :42:12.applies to Britain. It turned out to be a bit more important than the

:42:13. > :42:16.Beano, didn't it? If you look into that, actually, what the charter

:42:17. > :42:20.does is restrict what the European Union institutions can do. It more

:42:21. > :42:27.or less binds them to follow the same rules that we apply in Britain

:42:28. > :42:30.about human rights, which we negotiated in the separate deal on

:42:31. > :42:38.the European Convention of human rights. It applies to Britain? The

:42:39. > :42:45.fact is, it applies to Britain and we were told it didn't? What applies

:42:46. > :42:51.to Britain is very different, it's nothing to do with the EU, the

:42:52. > :42:56.European Convention On Human Rights. Churchill was a great champion not

:42:57. > :43:00.of that. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the Charter of

:43:01. > :43:09.fundamental rights and it is written into the European Court of justice?

:43:10. > :43:14.We were told it wouldn't be? Yes. What it says very clearly, that was

:43:15. > :43:17.clear when Britain ratified it, is that it binds the European

:43:18. > :43:21.institutions and the field of European Union law, even when we are

:43:22. > :43:25.applying it, to recognise and respect those fundamental rights

:43:26. > :43:28.that we would expect everybody to follow, and now that is also binding

:43:29. > :43:32.on the European institutions. It restricts them in what they can

:43:33. > :43:35.propose and what they can do to make sure they respect the same rights

:43:36. > :43:38.that we would want them to respect. Thank you for joining us today.

:43:39. > :43:40.At this late stage in the EU referendum campaign,

:43:41. > :43:42.the majority of MPs have announced their voting intentions.

:43:43. > :43:46.But there are a few who are still making up their minds and some

:43:47. > :43:49.This week, John Mann and Dennis Skinner put the number

:43:50. > :43:52.of Labour MPs declaring they'd vote to leave the EU into double figures

:43:53. > :43:56.And Labour MP Khalid Mahmood announced he's joining

:43:57. > :43:59.the campaign to keep Britain in the European Union -

:44:00. > :44:01.after previously backing the campaign to leave.

:44:02. > :44:03.Khalid joins us from the Birmingham studio and John Mann

:44:04. > :44:14.John Conner let me come to you first. You said you are going to

:44:15. > :44:18.vote to leave. You told us that on Friday. Why did you leave it so late

:44:19. > :44:22.to declare? I had to weigh up all of the issues, these are not

:44:23. > :44:27.straightforward decisions. The big question for me is, the EU is

:44:28. > :44:32.broken, fundamentally broken. Can it be reformed from the inside or not?

:44:33. > :44:39.My conclusion is that it can't be. One of the reasons is that David

:44:40. > :44:41.Cameron's negotiations, even on the absurdity of child benefits being

:44:42. > :44:46.paid to children that have never been in this country, he could not

:44:47. > :44:51.get agreement on that. It is because the structures of the European Union

:44:52. > :44:57.do not allow that kind of common-sense change to take place.

:44:58. > :45:03.It is there, in the rules, and it can't be changed. Khalid Mahmood,

:45:04. > :45:06.you previously backed the campaign to leave, you now think we should

:45:07. > :45:10.remain. You say you are worried about the threat to workers' rights

:45:11. > :45:18.if we leave the EU. How have you only realise that now?

:45:19. > :45:28.I wanted to look at the wider agenda and work to resolve that. A lot of

:45:29. > :45:35.the debate has focused on issues that have frightened people,

:45:36. > :45:38.particularly on the Leave side, and people trying to contextualise it

:45:39. > :45:45.about immigration. The whole thing is about how we deal to it -- with

:45:46. > :45:46.it. If you don't doctor Europe, it makes immigration far worse. We need

:45:47. > :45:54.to look at how you to restrict borders,

:45:55. > :46:00.stop people coming in. We've done that with an agreement with France

:46:01. > :46:05.to put up fences to stop people coming onto the trains through the

:46:06. > :46:19.tunnel. We've worked together to do that. What do you say to that? The

:46:20. > :46:26.European Union has failed. Angela Merkel unilaterally decided on

:46:27. > :46:33.behalf of Germany to have 1 million Syrians come to Germany. What was

:46:34. > :46:38.less noticed was she a load huge numbers of Kosovans to come to

:46:39. > :46:44.Germany. -- she allowed. The German economists said they needed 3

:46:45. > :46:50.million workers. That has a huge impact on the rest of the European

:46:51. > :46:54.Union. This concept of the European citizen rather than the British

:46:55. > :47:00.citizen, the German citizen, is the fundamental fault line in the

:47:01. > :47:05.European Union, that it cannot fix. If that was fixed it would be a

:47:06. > :47:09.different proposition but it cannot be. That is why the issue of

:47:10. > :47:16.immigration is so toxic. We don't know what will happen in ten, 20, 30

:47:17. > :47:20.years. We have no control over it. The only way we will know is if we

:47:21. > :47:27.engage with it and make the decisions from inside. We are the

:47:28. > :47:32.final destination. If we don't cooperate with Europe and France,

:47:33. > :47:43.and the Borders are open, and the French have no incentive not to let

:47:44. > :47:53.people come through, we have to work together to resolve these issues.

:47:54. > :47:56.We've only got a couple of minutes. We are being told by a number of

:47:57. > :48:04.Labour politicians on both sides of the argument that it is proving a

:48:05. > :48:14.struggle to get the Labour vote out for remain. Have you found that? The

:48:15. > :48:21.reason I joined is we want to get the vote out more effectively. If it

:48:22. > :48:26.is struggle? We are working hard to make sure we get people out. Yes,

:48:27. > :48:33.that is why I wanted to join, push people forward. You think it's a

:48:34. > :48:42.struggle. Most people are making up their own minds. The Westminster

:48:43. > :48:46.bubble debate and the Leave campaign against the Remain campaign is not

:48:47. > :48:50.the same as the debate going on in workplaces and households. There is

:48:51. > :48:56.an entirely different debate going on. It is quite clear the Labour

:48:57. > :49:00.Party is not entirely in touch with Labour voters on this issue. I thank

:49:01. > :49:03.you both for joining us. It's coming up to 11.50,

:49:04. > :49:05.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:49:06. > :49:08.in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to

:49:09. > :49:19.the Sunday Politics Wales. Is a new dawn about to break for

:49:20. > :49:23.council reform in Wales? The new man in charge tells us

:49:24. > :49:25.he wants a plan in And with the EU referendum debate

:49:26. > :49:30.well into its final fortnight, what would remaining or leaving mean

:49:31. > :49:35.for education in Wales? But first, the new man in charge

:49:36. > :49:38.of reforming councils has told this programme he hopes

:49:39. > :49:40.to have a new plan in place In his first interview since taking

:49:41. > :49:44.the job, Mark Drakeford says his predecessor's plan

:49:45. > :49:47.for a map with only eight or nine And he's open minded

:49:48. > :49:52.about how to move things on. Council leaders have told us

:49:53. > :49:55.they have plenty of ideas for him. Cemlyn Davies has been on a road

:49:56. > :50:06.trip to find out more. Where does the road lead

:50:07. > :50:10.now for Welsh councils? And we've parked just

:50:11. > :50:16.here, about to head into Rhondda Cynon Taff,

:50:17. > :50:19.looking down over And for several years,

:50:20. > :50:26.up until last month, this whole area was represented

:50:27. > :50:29.in the Assembly by Leighton Andrews. He had his own map of Wales,

:50:30. > :50:33.a very different one to this Now, many people disagreed

:50:34. > :50:38.with Mr Andrews's plan, but at least with him holding

:50:39. > :50:41.the compass there was an idea Since he's lost his seat,

:50:42. > :50:49.everything, it seems, It's almost a year since the then

:50:50. > :50:55.public services Minister announced he wanted to reduce the number

:50:56. > :50:58.of local authorities in Wales The aim was to improve efficiency,

:50:59. > :51:04.but the plans were immediately criticised by several

:51:05. > :51:08.council leaders. Including Bob Wellington who also

:51:09. > :51:10.leads the Welsh local There's nothing more dangerous

:51:11. > :51:16.in a combat zone, he said, So what is his position now

:51:17. > :51:21.with the general in question Let's now join together again

:51:22. > :51:30.and look for new solutions. The formula isn't going away,

:51:31. > :51:33.austerity is still here. The bottom line is that I think

:51:34. > :51:37.the best people to give direction to local government

:51:38. > :51:43.are local authorities. And so put the past

:51:44. > :51:46.behind us, let's move A month in the job Debbie Wilcox

:51:47. > :51:55.Wales's newest council leader, but she already has strong opinions

:51:56. > :52:00.about the future. Clearly, we won't end up

:52:01. > :52:03.with the same model as we have, And there will be rationalisation

:52:04. > :52:12.and there will be some But not this wholescale

:52:13. > :52:17.throwing the baby out with the bath water,

:52:18. > :52:20.you know, and the map as it was. Is that what Leighton

:52:21. > :52:26.Andrews was doing? Clearly, he was because

:52:27. > :52:28.the map was produced. But what remains is a real

:52:29. > :52:34.engagement from Welsh local government to say, we know we need

:52:35. > :52:38.to do things differently. We know we need to do things better,

:52:39. > :52:42.but, you know what, listen to us Some councils like Swansea

:52:43. > :52:46.are still open to Mergers may not be right

:52:47. > :52:52.for everybody, but we were West Glamorgan authority previously

:52:53. > :52:55.and we were happy with a proposed However, it has to be a major

:52:56. > :53:01.for the right reasons. The one question I don't think

:53:02. > :53:04.was answered properly the first time was what is it you want local

:53:05. > :53:07.government to do? When you answer that question

:53:08. > :53:12.properly then you'll get structure you need to deliver the services

:53:13. > :53:14.that local governments deliver. Councillor Stuart is now looking

:53:15. > :53:16.forward to hearing what Mr Andrews's successor,

:53:17. > :53:19.Mark declared, has planned. Leighton was a different

:53:20. > :53:22.character to mark. Mark conscillatory guy,

:53:23. > :53:27.he is somebody who we feel we feel we can talk

:53:28. > :53:31.through a detailed process with. I think we'll have an excellent

:53:32. > :53:33.relationship with him. Over the past few days I've spoken

:53:34. > :53:37.to a number of council leaders representing some of Wales's

:53:38. > :53:40.largest local authorities, they've all told me

:53:41. > :53:43.that the priority now has to be delivering services at such

:53:44. > :53:48.a financially difficult time. They also told me they realise

:53:49. > :53:51.they need to work together, and there is a willingness

:53:52. > :53:54.to do that. Through projects like

:53:55. > :53:57.the Cardiff City deal and Swansea Bay city region

:53:58. > :53:59.there is already a great deal Their message now, to Welsh

:54:00. > :54:06.government, seems to be this, There was a similar pitch from one

:54:07. > :54:12.Conservative Assembly Member when he raised the issue

:54:13. > :54:16.with the First Minister this week. Crime more than happy to meet

:54:17. > :54:23.you for a point some time Well, I think these things are best

:54:24. > :54:31.kept on a formal basis, but I thank the member

:54:32. > :54:33.for that invitation nevertheless. Those discussions will now begin,

:54:34. > :54:35.this seems to be general agreement that there is a need to move forward

:54:36. > :54:38.with reform of local government, but there are very different views

:54:39. > :54:41.about the format should take. Of course, the Cabinet Secretary

:54:42. > :54:44.will have discussions on this over the course of the next few

:54:45. > :54:46.weeks and months. I think consultation has got

:54:47. > :54:48.to be the way forward. I think that, you know,

:54:49. > :54:52.the Welsh local government Association will have a role to play

:54:53. > :54:54.in that, council leaders But where officers are delivering

:54:55. > :54:59.an effective and good service, overseen by councillors,

:55:00. > :55:01.that needs to be brought to light where good

:55:02. > :55:03.arrangements are in place. Let's look at those,

:55:04. > :55:06.look at the governance and deliver good services

:55:07. > :55:11.for the people of Wales. In the meantime the road

:55:12. > :55:13.ahead remains unclear, and no doubt there'll be further

:55:14. > :55:17.twists and turns before we know where Welsh

:55:18. > :55:25.councils are heading next. Plenty of points to put

:55:26. > :55:28.to the new Cabinet Secretary then. Mark Drakeford has been on a journey

:55:29. > :55:30.of his own. He told me he was in the middle

:55:31. > :55:34.of visiting all of Wales' councils. I asked him whether he's now

:55:35. > :55:36.starting again with What I've got in front of me,

:55:37. > :55:43.I think, is a period of talking, Of trying to work with people

:55:44. > :55:48.who are in the sector, When I'm out talking to people,

:55:49. > :55:53.by and large, people are very willing to agree

:55:54. > :55:55.that there are challenges facing local government that have to be

:55:56. > :56:00.faced up to and have to be solved. Now we can create a consensus around

:56:01. > :56:03.the best way in which those Lines on a map is part of it,

:56:04. > :56:11.but only one part of it. I want a discussion with the sector

:56:12. > :56:15.that is not just about structures, but about purpose, services,

:56:16. > :56:18.ways in which we can strengthen the relationship of local

:56:19. > :56:21.authorities with their I think there's a real appetite

:56:22. > :56:25.in the sector to have The last government put forward

:56:26. > :56:37.the idea of a map of eight or nine local authorities,

:56:38. > :56:39.where do you stand I understand that given

:56:40. > :56:42.the political geography of the National Assembly

:56:43. > :56:45.we would not be able to secure the votes necessary

:56:46. > :56:47.to take forward that map. The First Minister said that that

:56:48. > :56:50.map will have to be set aside. My job is to explore,

:56:51. > :56:52.with local authorities and others, the options that may be

:56:53. > :56:55.and to craft a consensus But will you be putting

:56:56. > :56:59.forward a new map? I don't want to get hang out,

:57:00. > :57:02.in my conversations, But eventually you will have

:57:03. > :57:09.to do that. People agree that there is a need

:57:10. > :57:12.to collaborate but you need to talk about numbers,

:57:13. > :57:14.you need to talk about how the council map

:57:15. > :57:16.will look in the end. Well, there are different

:57:17. > :57:19.ways of collaborating. They don't all involve starting

:57:20. > :57:22.with an obsession with I am more interested,

:57:23. > :57:29.myself, in-house How the way in which we can get

:57:30. > :57:34.councils to work together will strengthen services that

:57:35. > :57:36.are there already and protect services that would otherwise be

:57:37. > :57:41.under threat because of austerities. They will be changes

:57:42. > :57:43.that are needed. I want a conversation

:57:44. > :57:46.with those people who will be responsible for this,

:57:47. > :57:52.and a search for consensus. Sounds like you're moving away

:57:53. > :57:54.from the idea of mergers. There are more than one way

:57:55. > :57:57.than mergers can be There are councils in Wales who have

:57:58. > :58:02.come forward voluntarily, You rejected those ideas

:58:03. > :58:07.in the previous government. In that period we were looking

:58:08. > :58:11.at whether or not we would be better having a more fundamental

:58:12. > :58:16.and wholesale moving of boundaries. But there are ways in which councils

:58:17. > :58:21.can cooperate, in which we might be able to bring people together

:58:22. > :58:24.from particular purposes while not Or not ruling out the local

:58:25. > :58:41.authorities themselves, coming to the conclusion

:58:42. > :58:43.that they would be stronger It sounds like more of a sort of mix

:58:44. > :58:55.and match approach than, What I'm trying to do today,

:58:56. > :59:03.and I've been trying to do for a while, is talking to local

:59:04. > :59:06.authorities and being clear that at this point I'm not committed

:59:07. > :59:08.to any particular solution. What I'm saying is,

:59:09. > :59:11.there are a range of solutions We tried a particular way

:59:12. > :59:14.in the last Assembly, we know we will not be able to make

:59:15. > :59:17.that happen given the numbers So we've got to be prepared

:59:18. > :59:21.to have a wider conversation in which all these possibilities

:59:22. > :59:24.are rope and at the moment. I want to carry on those

:59:25. > :59:27.conversations and then we will need to see if we can come

:59:28. > :59:30.to a conclusion. OK, your predecessor was talking

:59:31. > :59:32.about eight or nine councils, you don't want to talk

:59:33. > :59:34.about numbers at all. Is it feasible that we could

:59:35. > :59:37.have the same 22 local authorities at the end of this process,

:59:38. > :59:41.whenever that is? Well, what I'm not going to do,

:59:42. > :59:45.and I've said this directly to local authorities,

:59:46. > :59:47.I'm not going to country number out of the air and say

:59:48. > :59:50.the right number is X. What I'm interested in, as I say,

:59:51. > :59:53.is how we have forms of local government,

:59:54. > :59:57.structures of local government, powers of local government that

:59:58. > :00:02.allow councils to go onto do a vitally important job,

:00:03. > :00:05.that they do every day for almost How can we help them

:00:06. > :00:10.to do that better? How can we protect them

:00:11. > :00:14.against the ravages of austerity? There are other things to be

:00:15. > :00:27.done as well. We've talked to council leaders,

:00:28. > :00:30.and there's a strong sense that your predecessor,

:00:31. > :00:31.his approach didn't They sort of talk

:00:32. > :00:35.about you as somebody Is your approach

:00:36. > :00:38.going to be different? He was definitely a tough talking

:00:39. > :00:41.minister when he came to council reorganisation,

:00:42. > :00:43.is your approach going to be softer? Look, as I said, Leighton

:00:44. > :00:46.Andrews set an agenda. He attempted, with the Welsh

:00:47. > :00:49.government, to take the lead Lots of that has been productive,

:00:50. > :00:56.lots of that will play But given the numbers

:00:57. > :01:03.and as a minority administration, I recognise that the only way

:01:04. > :01:06.we'll be able to push through changes through

:01:07. > :01:09.consensus-building. When I go out talking

:01:10. > :01:11.to local authorities... But that was tried before

:01:12. > :01:13.and it didn't work. Well, the difference this time,

:01:14. > :01:15.I think, is that the need The recognition is greater,

:01:16. > :01:21.people do understand that change I've had nobody suggest

:01:22. > :01:27.anything different in my My job, as a politician,

:01:28. > :01:32.is to try and find ways of bridging different points of view,

:01:33. > :01:37.to have an agenda where there are choices that we can debate

:01:38. > :01:40.and then to try and lead people to a point where we can

:01:41. > :01:45.move forward together. And you bring me to the final

:01:46. > :01:47.question about the timescale. You talked about these conversations

:01:48. > :01:50.happening in a relatively short When you envisage this new setup,

:01:51. > :01:56.whatever it is? I intend to give up a very large

:01:57. > :02:01.part of my time over the next months, I hope by the end of July

:02:02. > :02:05.to have met every council leader And I want a period over the summer

:02:06. > :02:10.than with those conversations can settle on our minds,

:02:11. > :02:13.where we can try and I will be disappointed if,

:02:14. > :02:21.in the autumn, I couldn't come forward having had those discussions

:02:22. > :02:24.with local authorities, with the political parties,

:02:25. > :02:26.with those people who have such a strong interest in making local

:02:27. > :02:30.authority services as good as they can be with a way forward

:02:31. > :02:34.that would take people with us. And the changes are

:02:35. > :02:37.actually implemented? Then it would depend

:02:38. > :02:39.what the changes are, because different sorts of changes

:02:40. > :02:42.will require different timetables. There is always a tension in public

:02:43. > :02:46.services between wanting to get things done, which we certainly

:02:47. > :02:49.need, but wanting to do things in a way that doesn't cause

:02:50. > :02:54.disruption and difficulty by trying to force a timetable faster

:02:55. > :02:57.than the system can absorb. Now many of you, and I include

:02:58. > :03:07.myself in this, are still getting over the euphoria of Wales playing,

:03:08. > :03:10.and winning, in the But there's another big European

:03:11. > :03:15.fixture a week Thursday of course, the referendum on UK

:03:16. > :03:19.membership of the EU. So let's give it our attention now,

:03:20. > :03:21.particularly in terms Joining us are Professor Kent

:03:22. > :03:25.Matthews who's Professor of Banking and Finance at Cardiff University

:03:26. > :03:29.and wants to Leave the EU, and the Labour MP for

:03:30. > :03:45.Cardiff Central, Jo Stevens Welcome both. When it comes to Welsh

:03:46. > :03:50.universities, they are very pro-EU. They get a lot of money from the EU.

:03:51. > :03:57.There is collaboration with other universities, why should they leave?

:03:58. > :04:00.I am not pessimistic about leaving. I don't see any reason those

:04:01. > :04:08.relationships should be changed at all. If they shouldn't be changed

:04:09. > :04:12.why leave the EU? That is not the arguments for leaving. The arguments

:04:13. > :04:18.are quite separate, they are to do with politics and the democratic

:04:19. > :04:23.deficit. They are about economics. Regarding the higher education, I

:04:24. > :04:28.don't see much is going to change. In fact, with higher education we

:04:29. > :04:33.are blessed with having a team of universities in the top 100. That is

:04:34. > :04:39.more than all of the EU put together. Academic excellence is

:04:40. > :04:45.want to generate funding, and funding follows academic excellence.

:04:46. > :04:54.Ken Matthews says nothing much would change if the EU UK left the EU. If

:04:55. > :05:00.that is the case then I wouldn't expect to see universities UK, the

:05:01. > :05:08.National union students and Nobel Prize winners saying that we should

:05:09. > :05:14.definitely stay in. We gain massively from being members of the

:05:15. > :05:19.EU in the university sector. 15.5% of EU funding to universities comes

:05:20. > :05:24.to the UK and 228 member states would disproportionately benefit

:05:25. > :05:27.from it. But the argument being made is that that though is not a good

:05:28. > :05:31.enough reason to trump the economic reasons.

:05:32. > :05:36.That depends what your view on those other reasons are. Universities are

:05:37. > :05:40.our future and feeds directly into local economy and the UK economy.

:05:41. > :05:47.?73 billion generated by universities in the UK as part of

:05:48. > :05:52.the European single market. There will be huge disadvantages, I

:05:53. > :05:54.believe, if we come out. Kent Matthews, these relationships are

:05:55. > :06:00.already established, pulling out would be a huge shock to higher

:06:01. > :06:04.education, wanted? Some of these funding streams won't survive. First

:06:05. > :06:09.of all, it's not clear why that should happen if these relationships

:06:10. > :06:14.are built on academic excellence. The second thing is that this

:06:15. > :06:17.funding that the European gives to universities is the British

:06:18. > :06:23.taxpayer. We are quite capable, in finding a universities, if we choose

:06:24. > :06:26.to. For the next few years, if we did leave, nothing much would happen

:06:27. > :06:32.to EU funding because the formulas in place will remain in place until

:06:33. > :06:38.we negotiate our withdrawal. Of course, until the universities have

:06:39. > :06:43.an interest group but there case for more funding. I, as an academic,

:06:44. > :06:51.argue universities to get more money. But universities contributed

:06:52. > :06:57.a lot to the Welsh economy. They provided a lot of jobs. Their view

:06:58. > :07:01.is valid, isn't it? Absolutely. I argue we get more funding, but that

:07:02. > :07:05.means somebody else has to get less. That is how democracy works. After

:07:06. > :07:13.all, we are supposed to be good at that. The argument we leave from the

:07:14. > :07:18.leave campaign on a lot of issues is that the EU is a conduit for UK

:07:19. > :07:21.money. It is UK money that is going through Brussels and coming out in a

:07:22. > :07:27.less efficient way. This money will come through universities through

:07:28. > :07:34.the Government? There is no guarantee of that at

:07:35. > :07:38.all. UK universities receive 15.5% of EU research money. We gain

:07:39. > :07:43.massively. It's not just money going into Europe and coming straight

:07:44. > :07:47.back, we get more back. We have a huge university sector in Wales, it

:07:48. > :07:52.is incredibly important. 84% of published research in Wales comes

:07:53. > :07:57.from a universities. So the argument is why the EU and UK benefit from

:07:58. > :08:04.the money, and freedom of movement of staff and students across the EU,

:08:05. > :08:09.that will continue if we leave? Not necessarily. We have the Rasmus

:08:10. > :08:13.scheme where students and staff can go between EU countries, we've had

:08:14. > :08:18.200,000 students take advantage of that scheme. But that's already

:08:19. > :08:24.broader than the EU. That could continue? It could continue to an

:08:25. > :08:28.extent but university research is all about collaboration. I wonder

:08:29. > :08:32.how we can argue that coming out of Europe is going to help us

:08:33. > :08:38.collaborate on a global market, an EU wide market when you've got

:08:39. > :08:41.universities across the EU... If they want to collaborate they will

:08:42. > :08:45.carry on doing that. The UK now collaborates with universities

:08:46. > :08:49.outside the EU. They could carry on in the same

:08:50. > :08:53.terms. But if you make it more difficult for that to happen and put

:08:54. > :08:56.barriers on place, which would inevitably happen then it won't

:08:57. > :08:59.happen as much. Restrictions on freedom of movement

:09:00. > :09:05.are bound to hit academic staff, they wanted students. That's the bad

:09:06. > :09:10.thing, isn't it? Certainly regarding collaboration, I don't think so. We

:09:11. > :09:15.collaborate more outside the EU than we do inside. I think within the EU

:09:16. > :09:23.funding it is available for academics outside the European Union

:09:24. > :09:28.Horizon 2020 is open to anywhere in the world. But it is an EU

:09:29. > :09:32.programme. You'd be silly to think that the European Union only finds

:09:33. > :09:36.European Union project because we don't have a monopoly on human

:09:37. > :09:39.capital and stop the whole idea of research projects is to reach out to

:09:40. > :09:44.the rest of the world. But it will add uncertainty. No, I

:09:45. > :09:50.don't think so. I'm going to China in a few hours' time to take part in

:09:51. > :09:53.a research meat. That's exactly the same as the Erasmus, the research

:09:54. > :09:57.collaboration that we are talking about. There's absolutely no deed to

:09:58. > :10:05.think... So nothing would change at all? We are looking outside the

:10:06. > :10:08.European Union. We find research outside the European Union, the

:10:09. > :10:13.fundamental thing is academic excellence. That is what is

:10:14. > :10:17.important. Britain does have academic excellence and that is

:10:18. > :10:22.important. We attract people from the States, with the best start,...

:10:23. > :10:27.Can you answer very quickly what will it look like for universities

:10:28. > :10:32.if the UK pulls out? If we come out of the academic excellence that Kent

:10:33. > :10:35.talks about will Di lived. The reason why we have more people

:10:36. > :10:40.coming to a universities both to teach and to study is because of

:10:41. > :10:47.freedom of movement which has allowed the best talent and best

:10:48. > :10:55.brains to counter a universities. They set up businesses, create jobs

:10:56. > :10:58.and grow the economy. To broaden the discussion, an the wider situation,

:10:59. > :11:03.how do you think it's looking? How do you think it's going to go? The

:11:04. > :11:08.polls are incredibly close. The only people I speak to other unacademic

:11:09. > :11:12.trump rational that taxi drivers, and so far I haven't met a taxi

:11:13. > :11:20.driver who said they are going to vote to stay in. Well, I've been

:11:21. > :11:23.knocking doors in my constituency, it's a university constituency with

:11:24. > :11:27.lots of young people and students. There was a very strong feeling in

:11:28. > :11:32.Cardiff Central that people would like to stay in. Across Wales, and

:11:33. > :11:37.across the UK I suspect there are different patches. It's very close,

:11:38. > :11:41.isn't it? On balance, if I think we had to put money on it I would say

:11:42. > :11:48.remain would win but it will be very close. Very close, but leave when a

:11:49. > :11:52.small margin. Very quickly, what about the confusion that is still

:11:53. > :11:57.out there. A lot of people still haven't decided. Lots of people

:11:58. > :12:01.haven't decided, but a lot of people are not saying because there's a

:12:02. > :12:05.slight hint of what we had in the Scottish referendum, that out of our

:12:06. > :12:07.shelters and people who want to stay in scared to say so. You

:12:08. > :12:12.Don't forget you can follow all the latest on twitter,

:12:13. > :12:28.The House of Commons inquiry into the collapse of the HS rumbles on.

:12:29. > :12:30.We're joined in the studio by the Conservative member

:12:31. > :12:34.of the Business Select Committee Richard Fuller.

:12:35. > :12:38.The former owner Sir Philip Green has been summoned to face

:12:39. > :12:40.questioning by Richard's committee on Wednesday but the retail

:12:41. > :12:42.billionaire yesterday declared he was "not prepared to participate"

:12:43. > :12:45.unless the chair of the Work and Pensions committee Frank Field

:12:46. > :13:24.My response is that the House of Commons appoints the chairman. The

:13:25. > :13:29.select committees, because there are two expect Sir Philip to appear on

:13:30. > :13:33.Wednesday. Sir Philip has a lot of key questions to answer. He calls

:13:34. > :13:38.the shots, he is the person that can actually answer. Parliament expects

:13:39. > :13:43.him to turn up on Wednesday. Richard, nobody expects Frank Field

:13:44. > :13:51.to resign? No. Is full of green looking for a way of trying to avoid

:13:52. > :13:54.appearing? -- Philip Green. He may call the shots at British Home

:13:55. > :13:58.Stores, but no matter how big you are, you don't call the shots on

:13:59. > :14:02.Parliament. Obviously he knows that, he must be trying to express his own

:14:03. > :14:07.concerns. He thinks it is because of the committee. But lots of the

:14:08. > :14:11.evidence against him has come from the people he sold the company to,

:14:12. > :14:17.advisers to him on that transaction. They are going against each other

:14:18. > :14:22.now, aren't they? Those that sold and bought the company, it is like

:14:23. > :14:25.rats in a sack, isn't it? If I was an employee had British Home Stores,

:14:26. > :14:30.I would be shocked at how little regard was paid by any of these

:14:31. > :14:34.people in their employment, in their stores, and if I was someone with a

:14:35. > :14:37.pension, I would be concerned why somebody was taken out of the

:14:38. > :14:41.profits and the reserves, the important thing is that Philip Green

:14:42. > :14:48.took the money out of the reserves. There was a need to put money back

:14:49. > :14:52.in and he was found wanting. Can you force him to appear? I think the

:14:53. > :14:56.force of public opinion will suggest that he should come. I don't know

:14:57. > :15:02.that Parliament needs to send the Sergeant at Arms to drag him,

:15:03. > :15:05.kicking and screaming. Why should he be susceptible, a billionaire, who

:15:06. > :15:12.splits his time between Monaco and Park Lane, where does he come

:15:13. > :15:15.face-to-face with public opinion? He has his own reputation, he made

:15:16. > :15:22.assertions he was trying to do the right thing, come and show that two

:15:23. > :15:26.us. Secondly, he relied on advisers, that he was the director of the

:15:27. > :15:33.company and their response validity needs to answer. -- there are respot

:15:34. > :15:37.abilities he needs to answer. If it's so important, you talk about

:15:38. > :15:43.the pensioners, people who are retired, they depend on their

:15:44. > :15:47.pension, 11,000 BHS workers who have done nothing wrong at all apart from

:15:48. > :15:51.turn up every day and work hard for their store, they now lose their job

:15:52. > :15:54.as well. Shouldn't Parliament, if you were a US congressional

:15:55. > :16:00.committee, you would have the power to subpoena him.

:16:01. > :16:08.We discussed on my committee with Mike Ashley. In the end he decided

:16:09. > :16:14.to come. We did not need to take further action. My understanding is

:16:15. > :16:19.opinion is divided on this, it is not clear if a Parliamentary select

:16:20. > :16:24.committee can for somebody to give evidence. Exactly right. It is not

:16:25. > :16:31.clear whether we have the ultimate sanction of forcing someone to come

:16:32. > :16:36.under law. There has always been an expectation that if people are asked

:16:37. > :16:39.to account for their actions they would come. If Sir Philip Green

:16:40. > :16:46.wants to be the first person to stand against that then so be it.

:16:47. > :16:53.VHS was sold for ?1. That puts a big neon sign above the whole

:16:54. > :17:01.transaction. -- BHS. It was sold to a man who was three times bankrupt.

:17:02. > :17:06.We don't know why the business department or the regulators let

:17:07. > :17:10.this happen. If Parliament is to matter it surely has to be able to

:17:11. > :17:17.force these people to come and speak to it? The moral pressure had an

:17:18. > :17:24.excerpt is still fairly impressive. We did see Mike Ashley, a

:17:25. > :17:34.billionaire. Rupert Murdoch was forced to turn up by pressure. What

:17:35. > :17:40.happens if there is an empty seat? Mike Ashley, we're not suggesting he

:17:41. > :17:44.did anything legally wrong. His company was not paying the minimum

:17:45. > :17:52.wage. Even that moral pressure was enough to get him to turn up, as a

:17:53. > :17:54.billionaire retailer. Parliament is still pretty impressive. My

:17:55. > :18:02.understanding is it is a quasi judicial event, and he can be

:18:03. > :18:06.dragged in front of the Speaker of the house, and absolutely we should

:18:07. > :18:13.do that. It has been a terribly bad week for business, it put them in a

:18:14. > :18:19.very bad light. The idea you can have a knighthood and be a

:18:20. > :18:22.billionaire on your jot and put two fingers up to the representatives of

:18:23. > :18:29.the British people, I don't think so. What is your take on this?

:18:30. > :18:34.Thousands of jobs that they sold for a poem, the allegations that have

:18:35. > :18:39.been made by the gentleman who bought the business are eye

:18:40. > :18:42.watering. I'm sure the public would like to see Sir Philip Green brought

:18:43. > :18:48.kicking and screaming. He can decide not to come but that would tell

:18:49. > :18:54.everyone answers to the questions we want him to answer. It is a chance

:18:55. > :18:59.for him to put the record straight if there is a story for him to tell

:19:00. > :19:08.otherwise people will draw their own conclusions. He can bring Kate Moss

:19:09. > :19:11.on his arm. What would we do if he does not turn up, would that be

:19:12. > :19:16.grounds for being stripped of the knighthood? I have always said we

:19:17. > :19:21.need to wait for him to come and answer the questions and there are

:19:22. > :19:25.very serious concerns about his behaviour if he does not come, and

:19:26. > :19:29.at that stage then within the rules of how you can be stripped of an

:19:30. > :19:31.honour I think they would very seriously look at that.

:19:32. > :19:33.Jeremy Corbyn's advisers are sceptical of what they call

:19:34. > :19:38.Perhaps that's why, on Friday night, the Labour leader appeared

:19:39. > :19:42.to explain his views on Europe, not on a political analysis

:19:43. > :19:48.programme but on the Channel 4 comedy gig The Last Leg.

:19:49. > :19:50.And if you thought the great Jezza was all allotments

:19:51. > :20:01.It seems he also does Bentleys and bling.

:20:02. > :20:45.Why? To show that he's up for a laugh. People will think that. There

:20:46. > :20:51.is a risk because other people might open the newspaper and see the

:20:52. > :20:58.pictures. So it was all right to do that? I think so. You never know?

:20:59. > :21:06.People might think he does that at the weekend. Old jumpers during the

:21:07. > :21:11.week. Fake fire at the weekend? You might be right. I find that a

:21:12. > :21:16.stretch. They wanted to show he had a sense of humour. He came across

:21:17. > :21:22.very well. It was very witty. Unless you want to be Prime Minister.

:21:23. > :21:25.People who want to be by Minister cannot be the type of people who

:21:26. > :21:34.want to have a laugh? -- Prime Minister. I do think people like to

:21:35. > :21:41.take seriously people who want to become Prime Minister. Was it an

:21:42. > :21:45.attempt to put more humanity on him? They must have thought long and hard

:21:46. > :21:52.about doing this. I'm not sure they think long and hard about anything.

:21:53. > :21:55.Your initial question was why, I think the answer is I don't think he

:21:56. > :22:00.wants to be premature and I don't think he thinks he will ever be

:22:01. > :22:04.Prime Minister and therefore the cost of this type of gesture is

:22:05. > :22:08.minimal. He is not missing out on vote that he wants anyway. He said

:22:09. > :22:18.one thing during the performance which the press interpreted as

:22:19. > :22:24.embarrassing, he said 70% Remain. More than I thought he was. I think,

:22:25. > :22:28.perversely, might resonate with more marginal voters than we think,

:22:29. > :22:37.people who will grudgingly consider voting to stay in. I wonder whether

:22:38. > :22:42.he has arrived at a line which is more persuasive than David Cameron.

:22:43. > :22:49.I thought he performed quite well, this relief that he can open his top

:22:50. > :22:54.button, Showtime. He could have a future with an acting career. We

:22:55. > :23:01.have the tooting by-election. Don't mention any of the candidates or I

:23:02. > :23:10.need to go through the lot. It is being overshadowed by the

:23:11. > :23:16.referendum. Is it significant? It was reasonably tight at the last

:23:17. > :23:21.election and before Sadiq Khan one, people said it could be lost for

:23:22. > :23:28.Labour. I would be surprised, in the wake of the mayoral election, which

:23:29. > :23:34.gave a boost to Labour. The money is on Labour to keep the seat. If the

:23:35. > :23:40.Tories when it will be very significant, actually, by-elections

:23:41. > :23:45.are not very significant. You say that but some of us needs to be up

:23:46. > :23:52.on the night to cover them. It would be significant for the Tories to win

:23:53. > :23:57.it. A long shot while they are knocking lumps out of each other.

:23:58. > :24:06.The most telling thing is even in the current state they are three

:24:07. > :24:10.points ahead of Labour. Tooting is trending long-term because there are

:24:11. > :24:14.more prosperous people in it. This might be a bit too early to take

:24:15. > :24:18.advantage of that but you could imagine it is one of those seats in

:24:19. > :24:28.2020 that could turn blue if Jeremy Corbyn is still

:24:29. > :24:31.leader. Thank you for being with us. We will look with interest to see

:24:32. > :24:38.who is with you on Wednesday. Maybe with the fur coat? If you would like

:24:39. > :24:43.to know the result, June in on ABC one on Thursday night. We will bring

:24:44. > :24:54.you the live coverage of the result from the tooting by-election. That's

:24:55. > :24:57.it from today. Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.