26/06/2016

:00:13. > :00:20.Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

:00:21. > :00:24.been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

:00:25. > :00:30.this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

:00:31. > :00:35.going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

:00:36. > :00:42.any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

:00:43. > :00:49.does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

:00:50. > :00:55.replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

:00:56. > :01:01.have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

:01:02. > :01:10.referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

:01:11. > :01:18.country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

:01:19. > :01:20.to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

:01:21. > :02:03.cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

:02:04. > :02:06.listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

:02:07. > :02:36.saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

:02:37. > :02:42.And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

:02:43. > :02:46.who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

:02:47. > :02:50.Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

:02:51. > :02:55.hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

:02:56. > :03:00.the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

:03:01. > :03:05.be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

:03:06. > :03:09.voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

:03:10. > :03:14.the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

:03:15. > :03:19.should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

:03:20. > :03:23.Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

:03:24. > :03:28.did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

:03:29. > :03:34.does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

:03:35. > :03:35.will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

:03:36. > :03:43.electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

:03:44. > :03:48.referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

:03:49. > :03:52.political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

:03:53. > :04:00.and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

:04:01. > :04:04.delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

:04:05. > :04:08.people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

:04:09. > :04:13.success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

:04:14. > :04:19.have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

:04:20. > :04:23.on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

:04:24. > :04:27.need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

:04:28. > :04:31.that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

:04:32. > :04:36.the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

:04:37. > :04:39.the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

:04:40. > :04:44.listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

:04:45. > :04:47.behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

:04:48. > :04:54.Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

:04:55. > :04:58.maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

:04:59. > :05:04.within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

:05:05. > :05:07.want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

:05:08. > :05:11.doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

:05:12. > :05:15.particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

:05:16. > :05:19.hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

:05:20. > :05:24.able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

:05:25. > :05:28.leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

:05:29. > :05:33.Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

:05:34. > :05:35.government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

:05:36. > :05:41.are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

:05:42. > :05:44.and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

:05:45. > :05:48.at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

:05:49. > :05:53.we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

:05:54. > :05:57.provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

:05:58. > :06:02.overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

:06:03. > :06:09.people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

:06:10. > :06:13.I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

:06:14. > :06:19.for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

:06:20. > :06:24.party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

:06:25. > :06:29.months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

:06:30. > :06:34.to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

:06:35. > :06:42.He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

:06:43. > :06:47.you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

:06:48. > :06:51.sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

:06:52. > :06:59.Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

:07:00. > :07:05.-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

:07:06. > :07:09.His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

:07:10. > :07:18.think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

:07:19. > :07:21.electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

:07:22. > :07:23.the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

:07:24. > :07:26.of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

:07:27. > :07:34.for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

:07:35. > :07:39.not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

:07:40. > :07:44.about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

:07:45. > :07:50.part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

:07:51. > :07:54.until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

:07:55. > :08:01.disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

:08:02. > :08:06.the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

:08:07. > :08:11.to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

:08:12. > :08:17.political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

:08:18. > :08:21.another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

:08:22. > :08:25.not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

:08:26. > :08:30.stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

:08:31. > :08:35.You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

:08:36. > :08:41.not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

:08:42. > :08:47.colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

:08:48. > :08:52.not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

:08:53. > :08:57.it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

:08:58. > :09:04.where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

:09:05. > :09:08.us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

:09:09. > :09:13.live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

:09:14. > :09:18.what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

:09:19. > :09:21.result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

:09:22. > :09:29.Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

:09:30. > :09:35.spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

:09:36. > :09:37.decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

:09:38. > :09:46.against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

:09:47. > :09:50.can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

:09:51. > :09:55.months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

:09:56. > :10:05.captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

:10:06. > :10:08.prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

:10:09. > :10:13.have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

:10:14. > :10:21.have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

:10:22. > :10:27.point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

:10:28. > :10:30.politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

:10:31. > :10:38.consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

:10:39. > :10:44.significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

:10:45. > :10:49.statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:10:50. > :10:55.be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

:10:56. > :11:00.everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

:11:01. > :11:04.everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

:11:05. > :11:11.who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

:11:12. > :11:13.conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

:11:14. > :11:20.does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

:11:21. > :11:27.united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

:11:28. > :11:31.to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

:11:32. > :11:37.not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

:11:38. > :11:42.feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

:11:43. > :11:46.any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

:11:47. > :11:50.becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

:11:51. > :11:54.with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

:11:55. > :11:59.before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

:12:00. > :12:04.really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

:12:05. > :12:08.I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

:12:09. > :12:15.have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

:12:16. > :12:20.Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

:12:21. > :12:24.seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

:12:25. > :12:29.we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

:12:30. > :12:34.the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

:12:35. > :12:37.it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

:12:38. > :12:41.any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

:12:42. > :12:46.have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

:12:47. > :12:50.anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

:12:51. > :12:55.reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

:12:56. > :13:01.what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

:13:02. > :13:04.two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

:13:05. > :13:09.my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

:13:10. > :13:14.Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

:13:15. > :13:18.They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

:13:19. > :13:22.Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

:13:23. > :13:24.Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

:13:25. > :13:41.Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

:13:42. > :13:43.be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

:13:44. > :13:46.David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

:13:47. > :13:48.by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

:13:49. > :13:50.there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

:13:51. > :13:54.prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

:13:55. > :14:01.and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

:14:02. > :14:05.reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

:14:06. > :14:10.ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

:14:11. > :14:15.have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

:14:16. > :14:18.critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

:14:19. > :14:25.answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

:14:26. > :14:28.contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

:14:29. > :14:33.APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

:14:34. > :14:36.length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

:14:37. > :14:41.difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

:14:42. > :14:45.pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

:14:46. > :14:51.levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

:14:52. > :14:54.European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

:14:55. > :14:59.Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

:15:00. > :15:03.emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

:15:04. > :15:07.Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

:15:08. > :15:12.have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

:15:13. > :15:16.referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

:15:17. > :15:22.on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

:15:23. > :15:26.the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

:15:27. > :15:30.the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

:15:31. > :15:35.Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

:15:36. > :15:41.Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

:15:42. > :15:45.Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

:15:46. > :15:50.Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

:15:51. > :15:54.the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

:15:55. > :15:59.among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

:16:00. > :16:02.brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

:16:03. > :16:07.Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

:16:08. > :16:15.with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

:16:16. > :16:18.very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

:16:19. > :16:22.committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

:16:23. > :16:25.is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

:16:26. > :16:31.Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

:16:32. > :16:35.is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

:16:36. > :16:41.Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

:16:42. > :16:45.fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

:16:46. > :16:49.scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

:16:50. > :16:53.second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

:16:54. > :16:58.numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

:16:59. > :17:02.remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

:17:03. > :17:08.it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

:17:09. > :17:13.in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

:17:14. > :17:18.same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

:17:19. > :17:22.is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

:17:23. > :17:28.disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

:17:29. > :17:31.massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

:17:32. > :17:35.says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

:17:36. > :17:41.Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

:17:42. > :17:47.Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

:17:48. > :17:52.Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

:17:53. > :17:56.He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

:17:57. > :18:01.mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

:18:02. > :18:05.wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

:18:06. > :18:09.other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

:18:10. > :18:13.Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

:18:14. > :18:19.question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

:18:20. > :18:24.Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

:18:25. > :18:31.I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

:18:32. > :18:35.someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

:18:36. > :18:41.did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

:18:42. > :18:44.is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

:18:45. > :18:52.seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

:18:53. > :18:56.the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

:18:57. > :19:03.sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

:19:04. > :19:07.interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

:19:08. > :19:10.horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

:19:11. > :19:16.leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

:19:17. > :19:20.bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

:19:21. > :19:25.I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

:19:26. > :19:29.have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

:19:30. > :19:36.page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

:19:37. > :19:39.thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

:19:40. > :19:43.timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

:19:44. > :19:48.having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

:19:49. > :19:52.strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

:19:53. > :19:57.manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

:19:58. > :20:02.we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

:20:03. > :20:09.signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

:20:10. > :20:16.it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

:20:17. > :20:21.he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

:20:22. > :20:24.members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

:20:25. > :20:29.popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

:20:30. > :20:33.national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

:20:34. > :20:38.of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

:20:39. > :20:39.We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

:20:40. > :20:42.to happen. You may currently be

:20:43. > :20:44.unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

:20:45. > :20:48.the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

:20:49. > :20:56.Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

:20:57. > :20:59.unlocks our membership of the European Union,

:21:00. > :21:01.chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

:21:02. > :21:03.the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

:21:04. > :21:07.to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

:21:08. > :21:10.vague so that each member state can decide how

:21:11. > :21:14.and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

:21:15. > :21:17.it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

:21:18. > :21:22.effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

:21:23. > :21:26.contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

:21:27. > :21:29.the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

:21:30. > :21:33.in the European Commission. What will be the substance

:21:34. > :21:39.of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

:21:40. > :21:42.discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

:21:43. > :21:47.and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

:21:48. > :21:51.financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

:21:52. > :21:53.and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

:21:54. > :21:55.conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

:21:56. > :22:02.to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

:22:03. > :22:04.and will require ratification from each of the 27

:22:05. > :22:11.national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

:22:12. > :22:14.hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

:22:15. > :22:16.and will need support from a qualified majority,

:22:17. > :22:20.at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

:22:21. > :22:28.it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

:22:29. > :22:34.the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

:22:35. > :22:44.of the council. There we are, much more of that to

:22:45. > :22:48.come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

:22:49. > :22:50.Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

:22:51. > :22:54.Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

:22:55. > :23:05.for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

:23:06. > :23:10.of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

:23:11. > :23:14.have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

:23:15. > :23:19.consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

:23:20. > :23:23.will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

:23:24. > :23:27.process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

:23:28. > :23:31.months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

:23:32. > :23:36.shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

:23:37. > :23:41.it is important for the country to see what are the actual

:23:42. > :23:45.consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

:23:46. > :23:52.are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

:23:53. > :23:56.President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

:23:57. > :24:03.apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

:24:04. > :24:07.do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

:24:08. > :24:12.result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

:24:13. > :24:16.to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

:24:17. > :24:21.to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

:24:22. > :24:29.Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

:24:30. > :24:34.has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

:24:35. > :24:38.and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

:24:39. > :24:41.for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

:24:42. > :24:52.relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

:24:53. > :24:57.these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

:24:58. > :25:02.have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

:25:03. > :25:07.is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

:25:08. > :25:12.defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

:25:13. > :25:17.referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

:25:18. > :25:23.you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

:25:24. > :25:28.swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you

:25:29. > :25:33.cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

:25:34. > :25:38.what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

:25:39. > :25:42.and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

:25:43. > :25:46.it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

:25:47. > :25:50.having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

:25:51. > :25:55.time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

:25:56. > :26:00.the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

:26:01. > :26:03.services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

:26:04. > :26:08.what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

:26:09. > :26:13.jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

:26:14. > :26:18.We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

:26:19. > :26:22.detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

:26:23. > :26:28.that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

:26:29. > :26:33.this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

:26:34. > :26:37.Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

:26:38. > :26:40.will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

:26:41. > :26:46.relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

:26:47. > :26:50.that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

:26:51. > :26:57.because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

:26:58. > :27:00.but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

:27:01. > :27:05.made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

:27:06. > :27:10.curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

:27:11. > :27:15.we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

:27:16. > :27:18.I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

:27:19. > :27:22.said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

:27:23. > :27:27.with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

:27:28. > :27:31.Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

:27:32. > :27:36.understand something as well, I think it is very important about

:27:37. > :27:43.where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

:27:44. > :27:49.won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

:27:50. > :27:52.among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

:27:53. > :27:57.future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

:27:58. > :28:01.so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

:28:02. > :28:07.country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

:28:08. > :28:11.Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

:28:12. > :28:14.and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

:28:15. > :28:23.negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

:28:24. > :28:30.is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

:28:31. > :28:38.you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

:28:39. > :28:43.how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

:28:44. > :28:47.For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

:28:48. > :28:51.the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

:28:52. > :28:55.financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

:28:56. > :28:59.dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

:29:00. > :29:05.British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

:29:06. > :29:10.we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

:29:11. > :29:15.can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

:29:16. > :29:21.see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

:29:22. > :29:26.now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

:29:27. > :29:29.I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

:29:30. > :29:33.referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

:29:34. > :29:39.in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

:29:40. > :29:45.to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

:29:46. > :29:48.unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

:29:49. > :29:51.the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

:29:52. > :29:57.deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

:29:58. > :30:01.debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

:30:02. > :30:06.of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

:30:07. > :30:10.We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

:30:11. > :30:16.between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

:30:17. > :30:22.border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

:30:23. > :30:27.to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

:30:28. > :30:32.test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

:30:33. > :30:36.means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

:30:37. > :30:42.but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

:30:43. > :30:46.we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

:30:47. > :30:55.this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

:30:56. > :30:59.don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

:31:00. > :31:02.this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

:31:03. > :31:08.have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

:31:09. > :31:14.think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

:31:15. > :31:20.is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

:31:21. > :31:25.possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

:31:26. > :31:29.they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

:31:30. > :31:33.is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

:31:34. > :31:38.same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

:31:39. > :31:46.let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

:31:47. > :31:51.Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

:31:52. > :31:55.rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the

:31:56. > :32:03.effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

:32:04. > :32:07.why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

:32:08. > :32:16.there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

:32:17. > :32:20.me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

:32:21. > :32:24.status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

:32:25. > :32:33.about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

:32:34. > :32:38.be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

:32:39. > :32:41.been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

:32:42. > :32:47.the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

:32:48. > :32:51.a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

:32:52. > :32:56.immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

:32:57. > :33:00.not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

:33:01. > :33:05.politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

:33:06. > :33:11.and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

:33:12. > :33:14.these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

:33:15. > :33:15.the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

:33:16. > :33:25.been right. I thought my last election campaign

:33:26. > :33:28.on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

:33:29. > :33:32.problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

:33:33. > :33:36.because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

:33:37. > :33:41.country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

:33:42. > :33:44.did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

:33:45. > :33:48.enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

:33:49. > :34:07.Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

:34:08. > :34:12.Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

:34:13. > :34:15.EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

:34:16. > :34:21.education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

:34:22. > :34:25.Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

:34:26. > :34:30.deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

:34:31. > :34:36.whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

:34:37. > :34:39.together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

:34:40. > :34:44.centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

:34:45. > :34:47.I do except there were communities, and when people see their

:34:48. > :34:53.communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you

:34:54. > :34:57.have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get

:34:58. > :35:02.out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

:35:03. > :35:07.fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

:35:08. > :35:12.campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

:35:13. > :35:18.understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

:35:19. > :35:23.problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

:35:24. > :35:26.jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

:35:27. > :35:31.Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

:35:32. > :35:36.is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

:35:37. > :35:41.reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

:35:42. > :35:45.realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

:35:46. > :35:52.morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

:35:53. > :35:56.Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

:35:57. > :36:01.to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

:36:02. > :36:15.there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

:36:16. > :36:18.-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

:36:19. > :36:23.I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

:36:24. > :36:25.Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

:36:26. > :36:27.not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

:36:28. > :36:37.Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

:36:38. > :36:43.troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,

:36:44. > :36:50.Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

:36:51. > :36:51.on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.

:36:52. > :36:53.Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

:36:54. > :36:55.She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

:36:56. > :37:01.Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

:37:02. > :37:07.in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

:37:08. > :37:09.UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

:37:10. > :37:10.minister. With me now is the former

:37:11. > :37:12.Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

:37:13. > :37:21.Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

:37:22. > :37:27.referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

:37:28. > :37:32.to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

:37:33. > :37:38.now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

:37:39. > :37:42.for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

:37:43. > :37:47.this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

:37:48. > :37:54.clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

:37:55. > :37:59.is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

:38:00. > :38:03.European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

:38:04. > :38:08.agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

:38:09. > :38:13.nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

:38:14. > :38:16.will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

:38:17. > :38:21.drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

:38:22. > :38:26.you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

:38:27. > :38:32.Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

:38:33. > :38:37.not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

:38:38. > :38:43.Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

:38:44. > :38:48.debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

:38:49. > :38:52.Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

:38:53. > :38:56.phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

:38:57. > :39:00.direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

:39:01. > :39:04.Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

:39:05. > :39:11.was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

:39:12. > :39:16.the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

:39:17. > :39:20.has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

:39:21. > :39:25.one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

:39:26. > :39:29.can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

:39:30. > :39:32.the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

:39:33. > :39:39.events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

:39:40. > :39:42.reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

:39:43. > :39:47.European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

:39:48. > :39:52.Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

:39:53. > :39:57.does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

:39:58. > :40:01.organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

:40:02. > :40:06.very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

:40:07. > :40:09.together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

:40:10. > :40:15.biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

:40:16. > :40:19.which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

:40:20. > :40:24.the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

:40:25. > :40:29.start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

:40:30. > :40:34.Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

:40:35. > :40:37.Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

:40:38. > :40:41.excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

:40:42. > :40:45.the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

:40:46. > :40:50.admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

:40:51. > :40:54.decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

:40:55. > :40:59.arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

:41:00. > :41:06.undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

:41:07. > :41:09.I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

:41:10. > :41:15.admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

:41:16. > :41:19.give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

:41:20. > :41:25.Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

:41:26. > :41:28.I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

:41:29. > :41:32.Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

:41:33. > :41:37.leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so

:41:38. > :41:41.far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

:41:42. > :41:44.Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

:41:45. > :41:52.show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

:41:53. > :41:56.we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

:41:57. > :42:02.quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

:42:03. > :42:06.model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

:42:07. > :42:09.different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

:42:10. > :42:13.relationship within the European Union. This will be another

:42:14. > :42:18.different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

:42:19. > :42:23.people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

:42:24. > :42:28.financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone

:42:29. > :42:32.has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

:42:33. > :42:36.the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

:42:37. > :42:39.self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

:42:40. > :42:44.straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

:42:45. > :42:47.benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

:42:48. > :42:54.that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

:42:55. > :42:58.movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

:42:59. > :43:01.is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

:43:02. > :43:07.parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.

:43:08. > :43:09.What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

:43:10. > :43:14.people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

:43:15. > :43:19.have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

:43:20. > :43:26.in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

:43:27. > :43:28.the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

:43:29. > :43:34.ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

:43:35. > :43:40.Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

:43:41. > :43:44.Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

:43:45. > :43:49.not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

:43:50. > :43:53.listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

:43:54. > :43:58.a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

:43:59. > :44:02.they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

:44:03. > :44:10.neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

:44:11. > :44:14.on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

:44:15. > :44:19.all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

:44:20. > :44:24.is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

:44:25. > :44:27.start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

:44:28. > :44:31.need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

:44:32. > :44:37.be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You

:44:38. > :44:42.have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

:44:43. > :44:47.EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

:44:48. > :44:51.and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

:44:52. > :44:56.matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

:44:57. > :44:59.the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

:45:00. > :45:07.negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

:45:08. > :45:12.needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

:45:13. > :45:16.and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

:45:17. > :45:21.vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

:45:22. > :45:24.need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

:45:25. > :45:30.the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.

:45:31. > :45:34.Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

:45:35. > :45:38.who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

:45:39. > :45:43.Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

:45:44. > :45:48.we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

:45:49. > :45:52.more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

:45:53. > :46:01.second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

:46:02. > :46:04.joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

:46:05. > :46:09.campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

:46:10. > :46:12.We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

:46:13. > :46:16.like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

:46:17. > :46:21.Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

:46:22. > :46:24.partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

:46:25. > :46:28.when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

:46:29. > :46:32.existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

:46:33. > :46:40.the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

:46:41. > :46:43.autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

:46:44. > :46:47.put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

:46:48. > :46:50.established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

:46:51. > :46:55.Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

:46:56. > :46:59.Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

:47:00. > :47:03.preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

:47:04. > :47:07.what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

:47:08. > :47:13.that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

:47:14. > :47:17.the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

:47:18. > :47:22.begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

:47:23. > :47:27.Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

:47:28. > :47:30.the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

:47:31. > :47:35.the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

:47:36. > :47:40.bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

:47:41. > :47:43.a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

:47:44. > :47:49.January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

:47:50. > :47:52.leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

:47:53. > :47:56.commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

:47:57. > :48:01.discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

:48:02. > :48:07.discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

:48:08. > :48:10.talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

:48:11. > :48:16.a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

:48:17. > :48:19.What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

:48:20. > :48:23.answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

:48:24. > :48:28.Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You

:48:29. > :48:32.will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

:48:33. > :48:37.one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

:48:38. > :48:42.are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

:48:43. > :48:43.some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

:48:44. > :48:52.Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

:48:53. > :48:59.because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

:49:00. > :49:02.those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as

:49:03. > :49:05.impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

:49:06. > :49:10.to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

:49:11. > :49:16.this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

:49:17. > :49:20.instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

:49:21. > :49:29.Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

:49:30. > :49:37.understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

:49:38. > :49:40.Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

:49:41. > :49:44.Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

:49:45. > :49:49.need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

:49:50. > :49:52.preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

:49:53. > :49:59.Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

:50:00. > :50:03.Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

:50:04. > :50:08.decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

:50:09. > :50:15.honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

:50:16. > :50:24.to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

:50:25. > :50:29.course that is only available once we have actually left the European

:50:30. > :50:33.Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

:50:34. > :50:37.Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

:50:38. > :50:44.now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

:50:45. > :50:47.what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

:50:48. > :50:52.reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

:50:53. > :51:03.could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

:51:04. > :51:08.160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

:51:09. > :51:13.to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

:51:14. > :51:19.off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

:51:20. > :51:23.taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

:51:24. > :51:29.to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

:51:30. > :51:35.involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

:51:36. > :51:42.MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

:51:43. > :51:47.range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

:51:48. > :51:52.the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

:51:53. > :51:58.all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

:51:59. > :52:06.system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

:52:07. > :52:13.first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

:52:14. > :52:17.candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

:52:18. > :52:21.decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

:52:22. > :52:25.November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

:52:26. > :52:31.huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

:52:32. > :52:38.under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

:52:39. > :52:44.article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

:52:45. > :52:50.of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

:52:51. > :52:53.that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

:52:54. > :52:59.might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

:53:00. > :53:03.the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

:53:04. > :53:09.William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

:53:10. > :53:12.decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

:53:13. > :53:18.spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

:53:19. > :53:23.hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

:53:24. > :53:26.might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

:53:27. > :53:50.you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

:53:51. > :53:51.pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

:53:52. > :53:53.a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

:53:54. > :54:05.behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

:54:06. > :54:13.someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

:54:14. > :54:18.it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

:54:19. > :54:32.was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

:54:33. > :54:36.was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

:54:37. > :54:42.old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

:54:43. > :54:49.to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

:54:50. > :54:56.Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

:54:57. > :55:01.close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,

:55:02. > :55:06.and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

:55:07. > :55:13.start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

:55:14. > :55:20.predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

:55:21. > :55:29.Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

:55:30. > :55:36.not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

:55:37. > :55:40.Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

:55:41. > :55:47.kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

:55:48. > :55:55.will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

:55:56. > :56:00.voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

:56:01. > :56:05.do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

:56:06. > :56:13.saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

:56:14. > :56:20.demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

:56:21. > :56:24.pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

:56:25. > :56:27.think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

:56:28. > :56:32.a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

:56:33. > :56:42.leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

:56:43. > :56:46.the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

:56:47. > :56:55.Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

:56:56. > :56:58.I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

:56:59. > :57:04.Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

:57:05. > :57:07.shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

:57:08. > :57:11.He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

:57:12. > :57:13.Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

:57:14. > :57:17.The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

:57:18. > :57:21.has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

:57:22. > :57:23.The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

:57:24. > :57:30.I love this country and I feel honoured to have

:57:31. > :57:37.The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

:57:38. > :57:51.David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

:57:52. > :57:54.on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

:57:55. > :58:05.To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

:58:06. > :58:09.If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

:58:10. > :58:11.via first past the post, until they are left

:58:12. > :58:16.Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

:58:17. > :58:19.said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner

:58:20. > :58:25.David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

:58:26. > :58:27.by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

:58:28. > :58:34.But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides

:58:35. > :58:41.They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

:58:42. > :58:49.I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

:58:50. > :59:04.Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

:59:05. > :59:08.EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

:59:09. > :59:15.be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

:59:16. > :59:20.decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

:59:21. > :59:25.Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

:59:26. > :59:31.have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

:59:32. > :59:35.may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

:59:36. > :59:39.for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

:59:40. > :59:43.who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

:59:44. > :59:48.unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

:59:49. > :59:53.remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

:59:54. > :59:57.that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

:59:58. > :00:02.leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

:00:03. > :00:08.moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

:00:09. > :00:12.the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put

:00:13. > :00:18.themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

:00:19. > :00:23.Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

:00:24. > :00:29.her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

:00:30. > :00:39.Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

:00:40. > :00:48.Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

:00:49. > :00:55.made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

:00:56. > :01:02.with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

:01:03. > :01:05.democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

:01:06. > :01:09.challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

:01:10. > :01:13.are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

:01:14. > :01:17.terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

:01:18. > :01:20.dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

:01:21. > :01:23.will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

:01:24. > :01:28.with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

:01:29. > :01:32.party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

:01:33. > :01:38.its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

:01:39. > :01:43.has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

:01:44. > :01:47.ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

:01:48. > :01:51.any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

:01:52. > :01:59.doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

:02:00. > :02:02.should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

:02:03. > :02:08.pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

:02:09. > :02:11.the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

:02:12. > :02:18.other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

:02:19. > :02:21.of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

:02:22. > :02:26.rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

:02:27. > :02:31.wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

:02:32. > :02:34.with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

:02:35. > :02:40.if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

:02:41. > :02:43.the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

:02:44. > :02:48.whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

:02:49. > :02:53.November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

:02:54. > :02:57.membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

:02:58. > :03:01.a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

:03:02. > :03:02.country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

:03:03. > :03:13.at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

:03:14. > :03:17.list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

:03:18. > :03:22.leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

:03:23. > :03:25.needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

:03:26. > :03:26.much. It's not just Her

:03:27. > :03:27.Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

:03:28. > :03:28.of Plates also appear to be

:03:29. > :03:34.shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

:03:35. > :03:35.sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

:03:36. > :03:38.and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

:03:39. > :03:39.of the The secret ballot will not

:03:40. > :03:49.have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

:03:50. > :03:52.others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

:03:53. > :03:55.against their leader. So far, MPs, including

:03:56. > :04:01.Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

:04:02. > :04:03.have already said they However, in order to depose

:04:04. > :04:07.a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

:04:08. > :04:09.to put themselves forward, and receive the support

:04:10. > :04:13.of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

:04:14. > :04:16.so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

:04:17. > :04:18.to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

:04:19. > :04:29.that level of support, a contest will be held

:04:30. > :04:33.at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

:04:34. > :04:36.at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

:04:37. > :04:40.the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

:04:41. > :04:47.one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

:04:48. > :04:50.supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

:04:51. > :05:01.voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

:05:02. > :05:03.on first preference, the last placed candidate

:05:04. > :05:05.is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

:05:06. > :05:14.above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

:05:15. > :05:18.Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

:05:19. > :05:20.the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

:05:21. > :05:22.be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

:05:23. > :05:26.With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

:05:27. > :05:33.Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

:05:34. > :05:38.time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

:05:39. > :05:42.nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

:05:43. > :05:46.the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

:05:47. > :05:56.composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

:05:57. > :05:58.thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow

:05:59. > :06:01.Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

:06:02. > :06:05.Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

:06:06. > :06:08.than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

:06:09. > :06:13.defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

:06:14. > :06:18.be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

:06:19. > :06:24.happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

:06:25. > :06:28.me but the important thing is we remain unified as a party and focus

:06:29. > :06:33.on what is important. The important thing is what are we going to do

:06:34. > :06:38.now. The pound is falling, look at what is happening to share prices.

:06:39. > :06:44.We need to be calm, and we need to show a bit of foresight and

:06:45. > :06:47.leadership. Focus. Now, or fall times now, people think it is a good

:06:48. > :06:52.idea to go for a leadership challenge? It is extraordinary. It

:06:53. > :06:56.seems that lots of your colleagues in the Shadow Cabinet and even more

:06:57. > :07:00.in the parliamentary party, they seem to be angry that there was not

:07:01. > :07:03.enough leadership during the referendum campaign from Jeremy

:07:04. > :07:08.Corbyn, and they do not think that Hilary Benn is a leader and they do

:07:09. > :07:12.not think he can take you to victory in 2020. That is all coming from

:07:13. > :07:18.Hilary Benn given that he ran the campaign. I'll so think that if

:07:19. > :07:22.Jeremy had been allowed, David Cameron, if he had stepped aside and

:07:23. > :07:27.let Jeremy take a leadership role in this campaign, I think we would have

:07:28. > :07:31.done better. In what way did David Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David

:07:32. > :07:37.Cameron made it all about him, about his brilliant deal, getting onto the

:07:38. > :07:41.media all the time, always being blue on blue. When I spoke to David

:07:42. > :07:46.Cameron during the referendum campaign, he was complaining he was

:07:47. > :07:49.having to do all the heavy lifting. He was not just complaining about

:07:50. > :07:54.the lack of support from the Labour Party, but from the Tories as well.

:07:55. > :07:59.Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn making his mark? Jeremy made 30

:08:00. > :08:04.speeches up and down the country. There was very little space us to

:08:05. > :08:08.get inserted into that debate. People criticise Jeremy for saying

:08:09. > :08:13.that he was only in favour of the European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I

:08:14. > :08:18.think that was truthful and real, and it reflected the views of lots

:08:19. > :08:22.of people in the country. Lots of people will have voted to remain.

:08:23. > :08:25.Those on the fence would have questioned whether they were in

:08:26. > :08:32.favour. Jeremy's voice was more truthful. Does that mean he is a

:08:33. > :08:35.better leader than David Cameron? I suspect it does. When did Jeremy

:08:36. > :08:40.Corbyn complain he was not been allowed to do more? We were always

:08:41. > :08:45.complaining. I went to Birmingham with half of the women from the

:08:46. > :08:50.Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in workplaces and so on. What was the

:08:51. > :08:54.coverage we got? There was a little clip, a film of us going into

:08:55. > :08:59.summer, and the voice-over being, nobody knows what Labour says on the

:09:00. > :09:04.referendum. Nonsense. You can complain you did not get the media

:09:05. > :09:09.coverage you wanted. That is true. I do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to

:09:10. > :09:13.accept one-on-one interviews. There were plenty of offers. In the end, I

:09:14. > :09:18.think he did one on Sky News in the evening. If he was champing at the

:09:19. > :09:23.bit to get it across, why did they not agree to do more interviews and

:09:24. > :09:27.programmes like this? The truth is that Jeremy had a straightforward

:09:28. > :09:32.response to the referendum. I think he should have been given an

:09:33. > :09:37.opportunity to get that out more. If he had been able to, that would have

:09:38. > :09:41.rung true with the country. I'll so think the Jeremy was also elected

:09:42. > :09:46.less than a year ago and 60% of the membership voted in his favour. Now

:09:47. > :09:51.is not the time for us to go for a leadership challenge, this is

:09:52. > :09:59.nonsense. We have you here, arguing your case, effectively as always. It

:10:00. > :10:03.is not true of all Labour people. I think that Mr Watson has been to

:10:04. > :10:09.Glastonbury. I am not quite sure what the silent disco is. There he

:10:10. > :10:13.is, the deputy leader of the Labour Party. Would you rather be there

:10:14. > :10:18.with him or here with me? I would always rather be with you. I knew

:10:19. > :10:23.you would say that. What would use it to your colleagues in the

:10:24. > :10:27.Parliamentary Labour Party to face this motion of no confidence that

:10:28. > :10:32.could be placed before the PLP tomorrow night? I am told there

:10:33. > :10:37.could be a majority forehead. I do not think there will be a motion of

:10:38. > :10:41.no confidence tomorrow night. They could vote the next day? Or the week

:10:42. > :10:46.afterwards, depending on how you interpret it. Could you lose? I

:10:47. > :10:51.think members of Parliament need to look at what the country is calling

:10:52. > :10:56.out for. The country is calling out for the Labour Party to step up and

:10:57. > :11:02.show an alternative. We must do that in a unified way. There is not the

:11:03. > :11:05.time for internal fighting. It is quite marketable we have a Prime

:11:06. > :11:08.Minister who has just resigned, there will not be a new Prime

:11:09. > :11:14.Minister at least until the beginning of October, if Liam Fox

:11:15. > :11:17.gets his way, it may not be until November. And the Labour Party is in

:11:18. > :11:21.the middle of its own turmoil as well. I have covered situations

:11:22. > :11:25.where one party has been in turmoil and the other one has taken

:11:26. > :11:32.advantage, but you are now both in turmoil. It is unprecedented? I

:11:33. > :11:38.agree, and the future is in hands. It is up to us, what we decide to do

:11:39. > :11:40.in the next few days. I will urge my colleagues to take a responsible

:11:41. > :11:45.view of this and think of the country first. The country needs us

:11:46. > :11:50.to be there. You're right, the Tories went into this, the two parts

:11:51. > :11:55.of the Tories, the Brexiteers went in not knowing what would happen if

:11:56. > :12:00.we got the Leave vote, and the government went in with no plan B.

:12:01. > :12:04.There is no plan at the moment, and our country needs a party to step up

:12:05. > :12:10.and do that role. That is what we should be doing. What do you say to

:12:11. > :12:14.those Labour supporters, not members, but supporters and voters,

:12:15. > :12:19.in the heartlands of the North and the Midlands, who did not follow

:12:20. > :12:23.your party's advise? They voted in substantial numbers to leave. They

:12:24. > :12:29.do not think that this Labour Party represents them. What do you say to

:12:30. > :12:32.them? One thing that came out clearly from this Brexit vote, is

:12:33. > :12:38.that half the country feels that the system does not help them. They are

:12:39. > :12:42.getting a raw deal, and whether that is because they cannot get their

:12:43. > :12:47.kids housing, or because they are having problems with their jobs and

:12:48. > :12:50.their terms and conditions, weather data not get access to public

:12:51. > :12:54.services, all these things are wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy

:12:55. > :12:58.is that we have answers to that nationally, and if we have a decent

:12:59. > :13:02.government prepared to address those issues, perhaps people would have a

:13:03. > :13:08.slightly different view. Now we have to reach out and speak to them. We

:13:09. > :13:12.must not do what happened after the Scottish referendum, when the Labour

:13:13. > :13:17.Party turned in on itself. We have running out of time. Can you give me

:13:18. > :13:21.a one sentence inkling of how your defence review might change? There

:13:22. > :13:28.is a question of how we defend borders now. If the GDP goes, we're

:13:29. > :13:34.2% of GDP being spent on defence. What happens if GDP goes through the

:13:35. > :13:40.floor? Will have cuts? I also think that the EU and Nato two sides of

:13:41. > :13:47.the same coin. International relationships will change. A whole

:13:48. > :13:48.range of things will be affected. Thank you very much, Emily

:13:49. > :13:50.Thornberry. Now, as one union was broken

:13:51. > :13:53.with the vote on Thursday, the fate of another

:13:54. > :13:54.came into sharp focus. In Scotland, First Minister Nicola

:13:55. > :13:56.Sturgeon of the SNP said the option

:13:57. > :13:58.of a second referendum on independence was now very much

:13:59. > :14:02.back on the table after Scotland voted by a significant margin

:14:03. > :14:06.in favour of remaining within the EU,

:14:07. > :14:09.only for votes elsewhere in Britain to swing

:14:10. > :14:12.Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew

:14:13. > :14:21.At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are

:14:22. > :14:27.inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the

:14:28. > :14:30.best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a

:14:31. > :14:35.sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other

:14:36. > :14:40.parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour

:14:41. > :14:43.develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First

:14:44. > :14:47.Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland

:14:48. > :14:49.been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

:14:50. > :14:51.allowing us to be so will be devastating.

:14:52. > :15:03.Well, Scotland's not the only part of the

:15:04. > :15:05.UK where there are calls for constitutional change

:15:06. > :15:08.In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British

:15:09. > :15:10.withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for

:15:11. > :15:14.I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister

:15:15. > :15:15.of Northern Ireland, Martin

:15:16. > :15:23.Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,

:15:24. > :15:29.what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a

:15:30. > :15:34.very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made

:15:35. > :15:38.up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in

:15:39. > :15:42.Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British

:15:43. > :15:46.government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European

:15:47. > :15:53.Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland

:15:54. > :15:58.solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the

:15:59. > :16:03.Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of

:16:04. > :16:06.days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government

:16:07. > :16:09.would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of

:16:10. > :16:14.Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been

:16:15. > :16:18.focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of

:16:19. > :16:24.people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I

:16:25. > :16:27.spoke to the Irish government Foreign Minister on Friday and I

:16:28. > :16:32.have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.

:16:33. > :16:36.Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming

:16:37. > :16:40.desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to

:16:41. > :16:44.remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use

:16:45. > :16:52.your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll

:16:53. > :16:58.was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think

:16:59. > :17:02.you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just

:17:03. > :17:06.as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in

:17:07. > :17:09.Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just

:17:10. > :17:14.from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not

:17:15. > :17:19.say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that

:17:20. > :17:23.exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the

:17:24. > :17:28.future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how

:17:29. > :17:34.we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my

:17:35. > :17:38.focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions

:17:39. > :17:43.with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the

:17:44. > :17:47.discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you

:17:48. > :17:51.consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted

:17:52. > :17:56.to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that

:17:57. > :17:59.we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in

:18:00. > :18:03.Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take

:18:04. > :18:08.account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

:18:09. > :18:14.Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with

:18:15. > :18:16.the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some

:18:17. > :18:21.distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have

:18:22. > :18:22.more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where

:18:23. > :18:31.our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue

:18:32. > :18:38.to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not

:18:39. > :18:42.against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be

:18:43. > :18:46.one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the

:18:47. > :18:50.whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which

:18:51. > :18:55.has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of

:18:56. > :18:57.decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the

:18:58. > :19:03.dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the

:19:04. > :19:07.prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious

:19:08. > :19:11.undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of

:19:12. > :19:15.foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to

:19:16. > :19:21.pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you

:19:22. > :19:26.cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on

:19:27. > :19:32.Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the

:19:33. > :19:36.UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special

:19:37. > :19:39.arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes

:19:40. > :19:45.of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who

:19:46. > :19:50.wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with

:19:51. > :19:55.very senior officials and governmental authorities within

:19:56. > :19:59.Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are

:20:00. > :20:06.focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be

:20:07. > :20:10.how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the

:20:11. > :20:16.north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates

:20:17. > :20:20.which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of

:20:21. > :20:24.course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has

:20:25. > :20:28.clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the

:20:29. > :20:31.whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime

:20:32. > :20:35.Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a fast-moving story here

:20:36. > :20:57.this morning. We now have Gloria De Piero's

:20:58. > :21:10.resignation letter, and a letter from Margaret

:21:11. > :21:23.Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy Corbyn should consider his position.

:21:24. > :21:26.When he did engage she was half-hearted, and in the end of

:21:27. > :21:32.Labour Party members and voters didn't know where the leader really

:21:33. > :21:36.stored. That is the latest from there. We have reassembled just for

:21:37. > :21:44.a few minutes before we go to the nations and regions our dream team

:21:45. > :21:47.panel. So we have a lame duck government, the dysfunctional

:21:48. > :21:53.opposition, and we voted to leave the EU. Anything else happening in

:21:54. > :21:57.politics today? It doesn't look like these resignations are petering out.

:21:58. > :22:05.It is only about an hour since the last one! I think Gloria De Piero is

:22:06. > :22:10.very significant because she was a close ally of Tom Watson, it looks

:22:11. > :22:15.like it is picking up steam now. She is one of those Labour MPs from the

:22:16. > :22:20.north. She had been in the media but seemed to be firmly rooted in the

:22:21. > :22:23.north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is

:22:24. > :22:31.significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a

:22:32. > :22:38.rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge

:22:39. > :22:43.between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else

:22:44. > :22:46.is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential

:22:47. > :22:52.unravelling of the UK itself. In the vacuum of leadership which has

:22:53. > :22:56.emerged since Friday morning, David Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being

:22:57. > :23:02.weak in his position, the closest thing I have seen in leadership is

:23:03. > :23:08.Nicola Sturgeon north of the border. You may or disagree with her

:23:09. > :23:18.position but she has a plan. The markets will be opening at 7am

:23:19. > :23:25.tomorrow here in London. The sterling, the FTSE could take a

:23:26. > :23:29.knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister now have to give a clear idea of

:23:30. > :23:34.where Britain goes now? Of the beginning of the informal talks, the

:23:35. > :23:41.process. Even though he is on his way out, isn't his duty to steady

:23:42. > :23:45.the ship? The biggest question is where on earth is the Chancellor in

:23:46. > :23:48.all of this. He is responsible in overseeing what will happen in the

:23:49. > :23:53.next few days in terms of the economy. We have that dignified and

:23:54. > :23:58.reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of

:23:59. > :24:01.England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is

:24:02. > :24:07.nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,

:24:08. > :24:15.I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the

:24:16. > :24:19.people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's

:24:20. > :24:23.sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up

:24:24. > :24:28.together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next

:24:29. > :24:41.leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the

:24:42. > :24:45.so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn

:24:46. > :24:50.so they may have a fight on their hands.

:24:51. > :24:52.It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:24:53. > :25:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:25:01. > :25:02.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

:25:03. > :25:05.At the end of the biggest political week for decades,

:25:06. > :25:08.this morning the fallout shows no sign of waining.

:25:09. > :25:11.Hilary Benn's sacking has led in several other shadow ministers

:25:12. > :25:14.either standing down or considering doing so.

:25:15. > :25:17.The pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to go is now increasing.

:25:18. > :25:21.The Labour MP for Aberavon, Stephen Kinnock, has backed calls

:25:22. > :25:24.for Jeremy Corbyn to face a no confidence motion.

:25:25. > :25:32.I spoke to him a few minutes ago and asked him why Corbyn had to go.

:25:33. > :25:36.It will require a Labour leader who is a negotiator.

:25:37. > :25:39.I have a huge amount of respect for Jeremy as a

:25:40. > :25:46.long-standing and committed constituency MP, campaigning on

:25:47. > :25:54.I do not see him as a negotiator with the skills and experience we

:25:55. > :25:57.need to take us forward during this unprecedented time.

:25:58. > :26:00.We have heard from John McDonnell, the Shadow

:26:01. > :26:01.Chancellor this morning, saying Jeremy Corbyn

:26:02. > :26:06.The membership of the party have given

:26:07. > :26:10.him an overwhelming majority to Jeremy Corbyn as leader

:26:11. > :26:16.I accept the membership gave Jeromy a huge

:26:17. > :26:19.mandate but that was then and this is now.

:26:20. > :26:23.Everything has changed and I hope that our membership will see...

:26:24. > :26:28.Why has Brexit changed everything in terms

:26:29. > :26:32.of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in the eyes of your members?

:26:33. > :26:36.The Brexit has changed everything because it is going to

:26:37. > :26:40.completely dominate British politics for the next three to five

:26:41. > :26:43.Also there will be a general election.

:26:44. > :26:47.I think this autumn the new leader of the Conservative Party will have

:26:48. > :26:53.That election will take place completely in the context

:26:54. > :26:59.We need a leader of the party who understands

:27:00. > :27:03.the European Union, understands the implications of being in or out

:27:04. > :27:05.of the single market, what it means for business,

:27:06. > :27:07.what it means for workers' rights, jobs, growth,

:27:08. > :27:15.If there is a general election, one of your colleagues, a

:27:16. > :27:20.Welsh Labour MP, has told us today you could lose as many as 70 MPs.

:27:21. > :27:24.With Jeremy Corbyn in a general election, perhaps

:27:25. > :27:27.later this year, you could lose a serious number of your

:27:28. > :27:32.That is absolutely central to our concerns.

:27:33. > :27:35.We have to ensure we go into that general election with

:27:36. > :27:40.a leader who is right in the context of a post Brexit

:27:41. > :27:47.The job description has changed, the mandate Jeromy got

:27:48. > :27:50.from the membership when he was elected was in a different

:27:51. > :28:00.Who is the right personfor the job to take

:28:01. > :28:02.over and use that mandate for the future?

:28:03. > :28:04.You are not going to draw me on that.

:28:05. > :28:09.If you're going to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn

:28:10. > :28:12.you can't think nobody is there ready to take over as a leader.

:28:13. > :28:15.It will be up to those candidates to come forward

:28:16. > :28:20.They have to explain to the membership why.

:28:21. > :28:23.You are not going to draw me on that.

:28:24. > :28:25.There are some strong candidates out there.

:28:26. > :28:29.the debate in the Parliamentary Labour Party tomorrow

:28:30. > :28:35.We have the motion of no-confidence vote and then we have

:28:36. > :28:38.It will be up to each of the candidates

:28:39. > :28:42.to set out their stall, to explain why they are the right leader to

:28:43. > :28:45.take us it into the general election which is almost certainly coming

:28:46. > :28:48.Stephen Kinnock, thank you very much for coming

:28:49. > :28:52.Our political editor, Nick Servini has been speaking

:28:53. > :29:06.On the record, a lot of them have gone to ground this morning. Clearly

:29:07. > :29:11.what we are seeing that as a fall assault by the party on Jeremy

:29:12. > :29:18.Corbyn. To Shadow Cabinet members are gone. Any more will follow

:29:19. > :29:23.today. There are two things at play. As you heard from Stephen Kinnock,

:29:24. > :29:28.deep concern among many MPs that if it is a general election and in all

:29:29. > :29:33.likelihood they will be sooner rather than later, as a result of

:29:34. > :29:37.what has happened with that result, then an element of self-preservation

:29:38. > :29:44.here. A lot are going to lose their jobs or they feel they could lose

:29:45. > :29:50.their jobs. Then you've got the wider question. We have to remember

:29:51. > :29:53.Jeremy Corbyn was overwhelmingly backed by your own, grassroots

:29:54. > :29:58.members fired up about the principles he stood for. I've spoken

:29:59. > :30:04.to figures in the party who said they have had e-mail after e-mail

:30:05. > :30:07.saying in effect, agreeing with Stephen Kinnock, the Brexit of

:30:08. > :30:11.results a game changer because so many of these people as well as

:30:12. > :30:17.being very supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, they are fiercely

:30:18. > :30:19.pro-European and they feel Jeremy Corbyn did not run a good campaign.

:30:20. > :30:23.Now everything that has happened this morning is linked directly

:30:24. > :30:26.to last week's referendum vote to leave the EU.

:30:27. > :30:29.So what now for Wales' relationship with Europe?

:30:30. > :30:31.The Welsh Secretary has told this programme that AMs should look

:30:32. > :30:36.at why voters in Wales voted for Brexit when so many communities

:30:37. > :30:40.have had so much EU grant aid spent on them.

:30:41. > :30:44.More from our Political Correspondent, Daniel Davies.

:30:45. > :30:47.Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going!

:30:48. > :30:53.After a bruising encounter, Brexit won out.

:30:54. > :30:56.Blaenavon in Torfaen, one of two counties,

:30:57. > :31:00.along with neighbouring Blaenau Gwent where the Leave vote

:31:01. > :31:05.Late in the campaign, one senior Labour politician told me

:31:06. > :31:10.some of his constituents were using the referendum to whinge

:31:11. > :31:15.But in places like this, they did more

:31:16. > :31:17.than just whinge, they went to the ballot box and let

:31:18. > :31:25.You voted to leave, I guess?

:31:26. > :31:26.Yes. Definitely.

:31:27. > :31:31.I just feel with grandchildren and great-grandchildren coming up we

:31:32. > :31:39.No, I couldn't make up my mind so I decided not to.

:31:40. > :31:42.I felt like I'd woken up in a foreign country, it is absolutely

:31:43. > :31:48.Wales gets lots of grants from the EU for things the central

:31:49. > :31:51.government won't even dream to think of.

:31:52. > :31:55.It was Heritage Day in Blaenavon yesterday and there is a solid

:31:56. > :32:00.Labour was plunged into turmoil in the early hours today

:32:01. > :32:04.when Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn was sacked

:32:05. > :32:11.Some MPs say attacking the leader is a distraction.

:32:12. > :32:14.I've supported Jeremy during his leadership and what I

:32:15. > :32:17.think is really important now is we don't focus on an individual.

:32:18. > :32:21.It is very important that as a Labour Party we have a period

:32:22. > :32:27.of reflection, we have to look at what the voters have said

:32:28. > :32:32.The really important issue isn't about individuals

:32:33. > :32:34.but how we respond now as a party.

:32:35. > :32:37.Others say this to Mr Corbyn's critics.

:32:38. > :32:40.There have been groups in the Labour Party who have been

:32:41. > :32:42.saying this since the day Jeremy was elected.

:32:43. > :32:46.Every pretext has been carried out to undermine you.

:32:47. > :32:50.Labour's Welsh leader says the timing of this

:32:51. > :32:58.I warned it was a mistake to have a referendum six weeks after an

:32:59. > :33:03.Mr Jones's Welsh Government has spent billions of

:33:04. > :33:07.pounds of EU aid in Valleys communities including on projects

:33:08. > :33:10.like this, dualling the Heads of the Valleys road.

:33:11. > :33:14.Yet, most people there still voted to leave.

:33:15. > :33:17.I think everyone has to look at the sorts of

:33:18. > :33:19.European policies that were being developed by the Welsh

:33:20. > :33:21.Government but by the UK Government that didn't have that connection

:33:22. > :33:27.The public did not recognise the outcomes that were

:33:28. > :33:34.At the very moment when the party should be ganging up

:33:35. > :33:38.on the Conservatives who will soon need a new leader.

:33:39. > :33:42.A Welsh MP, Work and Pensions Secretary, Stephen Crabb is tipped

:33:43. > :33:46.as a contender to succeed David Cameron.

:33:47. > :33:48.Well, it is far too early to speculate.

:33:49. > :33:52.Only a short period of time has passed since the

:33:53. > :33:54.Prime Minister announced his resignation.

:33:55. > :33:56.I don't think there are any names out there formally.

:33:57. > :33:58.There is pure speculation at the moment.

:33:59. > :33:59.I'm not going to enter any speculation.

:34:00. > :34:02.There was one question on the ballot paper but it has

:34:03. > :34:06.The Welsh Government's cabinet starts its

:34:07. > :34:10.search for answers when it meets tomorrow.

:34:11. > :34:14.Plenty to talk about then with my guests, the Leader

:34:15. > :34:18.of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies, and the former

:34:19. > :34:23.MEP and current AM and Peer, Eluned Morgan.

:34:24. > :34:30.Thank you both for coming in. I will start with Eluned Morgan, what went

:34:31. > :34:35.wrong on Thursday? The entire Labour Establishment in Wales were all pros

:34:36. > :34:40.remain and have been given a bit of a bloody nose. There was a

:34:41. > :34:45.disconnect between the people leading the Labour Party and the

:34:46. > :34:50.traditional communities we can usually rely up to support us. I

:34:51. > :34:56.think it was more than just the European Union. People were focused

:34:57. > :34:59.on it but I think it is also about globalisation, the fact the world

:35:00. > :35:04.has changed and they don't feel they have got control any more. Now, they

:35:05. > :35:09.think they will have control. It is interesting to see already it is the

:35:10. > :35:14.market that are determining what our future is going to be and that

:35:15. > :35:19.control will be even less, I fear. We spoke during the course of the

:35:20. > :35:21.evening on Thursday on our overnight programme and you said there needed

:35:22. > :35:27.to be some serious soul-searching for Labour in Wales. We have heard

:35:28. > :35:32.Carwyn Jones saying, it wasn't my referendum, it was all about the

:35:33. > :35:36.timing, it was all about giving the Tories are kicking. He isn't

:35:37. > :35:41.entering a period of soul searching and reflection. Until we reconnect

:35:42. > :35:46.with our working class voters are in serious trouble. We didn't listen to

:35:47. > :35:52.them and they were not listening to us. We need to get a better method

:35:53. > :35:56.of communication, we need to be in listening mode and we need to act.

:35:57. > :36:03.Is that coming from the leadership? Do you think Arwyn Jones is aware of

:36:04. > :36:07.that? Carwyn Jones luck that the results and the results of the

:36:08. > :36:12.Assembly elections. We did well in the terms of number of seats but we

:36:13. > :36:17.did badly in then number of votes. That is a real problem for us. Until

:36:18. > :36:24.we respond we are going to be in deep trouble as a political party.

:36:25. > :36:28.Andrew RT Davies, looking ahead, what happened Thursday morning was

:36:29. > :36:34.the pound had a terrible drop, the market reacted badly. Was that worse

:36:35. > :36:37.than you expected? Did you anticipate that would happen or were

:36:38. > :36:44.you concerned about what happened was Mike the market was down by 3.5%

:36:45. > :36:48.closed on Friday. None of the deals that were in place on Thursday

:36:49. > :36:54.morning had gone by Friday morning. They will not be gone by Monday

:36:55. > :36:58.morning. The project is funded, the schemes that they will begin to ring

:36:59. > :37:04.and the jobs will be continuing. Negotiations now start and it'll be

:37:05. > :37:08.up to the UK Government to enact Article 50. Now was not the time for

:37:09. > :37:14.hotheads. Now is it time for reflection and vision. There is a

:37:15. > :37:20.lot of work to be done. In terms of the money coming into Wales our

:37:21. > :37:23.viewers will be concerned, hundreds of millions of pounds came to Wales

:37:24. > :37:33.the EU grants. At that will continue. Is that definite? It is a

:37:34. > :37:37.fact that when people go to work on Monday morning, when they go to work

:37:38. > :37:41.in 18 months' time, that many were still becoming an eco-zit is a

:37:42. > :37:51.seven-year programme up to 2020 and that many is guaranteed to come in

:37:52. > :37:58.and stop what if we have left a 2018? What happens between then and

:37:59. > :38:02.2020. It will be for the government of the day to continue with the

:38:03. > :38:06.programmes and make the money available. How's that many is

:38:07. > :38:12.distributed will be up to the UK Government and the devolved

:38:13. > :38:15.governments. Let me explain the point in time to make. The central

:38:16. > :38:19.argument that was on the ballot paper was allowing people to take

:38:20. > :38:24.decisions and vote politicians in to enact those decisions. The general

:38:25. > :38:28.election in 2020 will be mapping out the territory we will will be

:38:29. > :38:32.undertaking. It will be for people the length and breadth of these

:38:33. > :38:38.islands to vote on the government they wish to serve. The other point

:38:39. > :38:42.I was making was about reflection, vision for the future and where we

:38:43. > :38:46.want to be. That is big game we're doing now. Where we want this

:38:47. > :38:49.country to go because the public have spoken. There is plenty of

:38:50. > :38:53.reflection about who should have done this and that. I was on a

:38:54. > :38:56.programme with a First Minister this morning and he said this wasn't his

:38:57. > :39:06.election. We have heard from Nicola Sturgeon,

:39:07. > :39:08.there are plans in place and stop those Carwyn Jones have plans in

:39:09. > :39:16.place? Wherein a situation of economic coal

:39:17. > :39:20.and constitutional meltdown. There's no point shying away from that. We

:39:21. > :39:25.need is strong leadership. But is there a plan?

:39:26. > :39:30.Nobody foresaw this situation in quite the way it is panning out.

:39:31. > :39:34.What we did have is a whole load of promises that were made by people

:39:35. > :39:40.like Andrew RT Davies that we were going to see three and ?50 million a

:39:41. > :39:48.week coming into how our NHS. That many would still come in to the

:39:49. > :39:52.Buddhist communities stop Nicola Sturgeon is engaging with other

:39:53. > :39:57.countries, making plans and moving ahead. It seems to me we are still

:39:58. > :40:02.licking wounds and saying that money has to come from somewhere rather

:40:03. > :40:06.than going after that. Carwyn Jones has set out clear

:40:07. > :40:10.radius of what he once to be involved in. He was to make sure

:40:11. > :40:14.that money keeps on coming to Wales. The first thing we have to do is to

:40:15. > :40:20.stabilise the economy. People are pulling money out out of our

:40:21. > :40:26.economy. Jobs are being lost and many will not be graceful tax. Our

:40:27. > :40:30.services... Is Carwyn Jones showing leadership?

:40:31. > :40:35.Is he a strong enough leader for this turbulent period?

:40:36. > :40:41.Carwyn Jones came out fighting the next day. He set out clear proposals

:40:42. > :40:45.and one of those was he wants to be at the negotiating table. What we

:40:46. > :40:49.know is we cannot leave the European Union without the endorsement of the

:40:50. > :40:54.Welsh Government. That is something that have to be sought and which

:40:55. > :40:58.means he will be... You are happy Carwyn Jones

:40:59. > :41:02.continues? Absolutely, without question. He is

:41:03. > :41:08.showing the leadership. It is difficult because Wales voted no

:41:09. > :41:15.Mac. It puts him in a difficult city ratio. We cannot come in all good

:41:16. > :41:20.conscience, go to Brussels and make the same case that Nicola Sturgeon

:41:21. > :41:26.is making. We will wait to see who the next

:41:27. > :41:30.leader of the Conservative Party has. You say then needs to be a

:41:31. > :41:35.prime, surely people at home will be asking what on earth is the plan?

:41:36. > :41:41.You well hoping for this. This referendum was in our manifesto

:41:42. > :41:44.in 2015. It isn't an unforeseen referendum. There were lots of other

:41:45. > :41:52.commitments made in that manifesto that was endorsed by the public.

:41:53. > :41:55.What is the plan after Brexit? To go into negotiations with European

:41:56. > :42:00.Union over balancing our relationship will stop we trade

:42:01. > :42:03.globally, we trade with our allies that that is a bright future for

:42:04. > :42:10.this country. We have a fifth-largest economy. We are not

:42:11. > :42:14.any more. We are the sixth. People want to talk down the democratic

:42:15. > :42:24.decision now was taken on Thursday. It was endorsed by 17 of the 22

:42:25. > :42:30.areas counted in Wales. What happens next? You are talking in platitudes

:42:31. > :42:33.of being the sixth largest economy. That isn't something you can go to

:42:34. > :42:38.Brussels and saying. There is nothing...

:42:39. > :42:42.We will continue to trade and have access into market whether they be

:42:43. > :42:48.European or global and we will have the money available to send around

:42:49. > :42:51.the regions and countries as committed to stop that happen. Every

:42:52. > :42:56.five years there will be an election. The government will give

:42:57. > :43:01.their priorities. People will speak through the ballot box for the first

:43:02. > :43:05.time in 45 years. It is important politicians raise their game, don't

:43:06. > :43:11.look back with acrimony and work on vision for the future, a future that

:43:12. > :43:15.looks very bright. Eluned Morgan, you said the Welsh Government has to

:43:16. > :43:19.give its stamp of approval in this referendum. Nicola Sturgeon has said

:43:20. > :43:25.she's not sure if the Scottish parliament will do that. If this was

:43:26. > :43:30.government refused for this to be ratified it be huge betrayal for the

:43:31. > :43:35.people of Wales who voted for it. We've got two years before we get to

:43:36. > :43:39.the end of the negotiation. The EU will be a different place within two

:43:40. > :43:47.years. Issues like the free movement of people whisper on the table

:43:48. > :43:51.within DEV. We shouldn't really press ahead to quickly here. Now was

:43:52. > :43:55.the time for calm heads, we need stability in the markets, we need to

:43:56. > :44:01.make sure people feel they can invest in our economy and that is a

:44:02. > :44:07.long-term prospects for our country. We have got much time left. Andrew

:44:08. > :44:17.RT Davies, if it turns out the Welsh Government, Scotland and Northern

:44:18. > :44:21.Ireland use the power to stop the referendum going ahead?

:44:22. > :44:27.These discussions need to take place first. Ultimately, it'll be for the

:44:28. > :44:31.deal to be put before the legislators and Parliament and

:44:32. > :44:35.assemblers of the UK and it could be there was a general election in 2020

:44:36. > :44:41.that would determine it by a vote of the whole country. We have a

:44:42. > :44:44.government in place only recently elected with key commitments, key

:44:45. > :44:50.manifesto pledges which it will continue to deliver. This

:44:51. > :44:56.referendum, the people spoke. 48% of the population chose to remain Mac.

:44:57. > :45:01.It is vital that views Alison to. Thank you both are coming in. We

:45:02. > :45:02.have two knock it on behalf of there.

:45:03. > :45:04.This morning's events prove that nowadays a day

:45:05. > :45:06.is a long time in politics, never mind a week.

:45:07. > :45:08.Frankly, no-one knows how the next few days,

:45:09. > :45:11.never mind the next few weeks and months, will pan out.

:45:12. > :45:13.We do however know that there are events this week

:45:14. > :45:16.which will affect the direction the UK takes in the long run.

:45:17. > :45:20.Get your pens out and find me a window in your diaries as we look

:45:21. > :45:24.First thing tomorrow morning, Carwyn Jones will meet his cabinet

:45:25. > :45:28.to discuss the Welsh Government's latest reaction to Brexit.

:45:29. > :45:32.MPs will return to Parliament to feverish speculation

:45:33. > :45:35.about who will be Prime Minister when David Cameron stands down.

:45:36. > :45:37.Will it be Boris Johnson or Theresa May?

:45:38. > :45:41.Or do others, like Stephen Crabb, stand a good chance?

:45:42. > :45:43.Equally feverish will be the speculation about the future

:45:44. > :45:50.Tomorrow night is the weekly meeting of Labour MPs.

:45:51. > :45:53.You would pay good many to be a fly on the wall there.

:45:54. > :45:56.On Tuesday, AMs from all parties will get the chance to quiz

:45:57. > :45:59.Carwyn Jones about his reaction to Brexit during First

:46:00. > :46:07.In Brussels, a special sitting of the European Parliament

:46:08. > :46:09.will discuss what has happened and David Cameron

:46:10. > :46:11.will address the leaders of the other 27 EU member states.

:46:12. > :46:15.On Wednesday, those states will meet without the UK for the first time to

:46:16. > :46:20.Back in the Commons, MPs will have their first chance

:46:21. > :46:23.to question the Prime Minister since the vote.

:46:24. > :46:27.who can say where we will be at that point?

:46:28. > :46:31.But this is an enough for is be to getting on with, I think.

:46:32. > :46:34.Well, I can't think of a week where there has been more

:46:35. > :46:36.to talk about in politics, so we thought we'd invite two

:46:37. > :46:39.stalwarts who know all the main players and have got their finger

:46:40. > :46:42.The Sonny and Cher of political punditry!

:46:43. > :46:45.The analyst Valerie Livingston and our political editor,

:46:46. > :47:04.One of the things I listen to this morning, is the current government,

:47:05. > :47:11.is that strong and stable enough for the tumultuous period to come?

:47:12. > :47:15.Opening the door possibly to some kind of formal coalition between

:47:16. > :47:19.Labour and Plaid Cymru which is the kind of questions being asked. In

:47:20. > :47:22.answer to that, Leanne Wood is saying she is in listening mode and

:47:23. > :47:26.there is a need for unity. In terms of what we have heard from Carwyn

:47:27. > :47:32.Jones I think he is pretty cool on the idea. He and word was talking

:47:33. > :47:38.about a joint negotiating team heading to London or Brussels. In

:47:39. > :47:42.the conversations and the interviews we had with Carwyn Jones he wants to

:47:43. > :47:47.be in the top team heading to Brussels. I'm not sure if he wants

:47:48. > :47:54.to book a seat for Leanne Wood. He sees it in his role. That call for

:47:55. > :47:59.unity may have merit. We're going to have some really acrimonious moments

:48:00. > :48:06.in the weeks and months ahead. Maybe we can expand on them. In terms of

:48:07. > :48:12.this negotiating process that will be kicked off soon, we see Nicola

:48:13. > :48:18.Sturgeon already being proactive than Wales. Is that the sense you

:48:19. > :48:23.are getting? We are seeing clear leadership from Scotland. Carwyn

:48:24. > :48:29.Jones has set out his approach already. His hand isn't so strong.

:48:30. > :48:35.She had the voter Remain in Scotland. Carwyn Jones on the other

:48:36. > :48:38.hand had the votes to Leave. It be more difficult for him to make some

:48:39. > :48:48.of the arguments Achille Sturgeon is making. What does that say about

:48:49. > :48:56.labour in Wales? They didn't manage to get their supporters to support

:48:57. > :49:00.an important issue. There are huge questions to answer here. Carwyn

:49:01. > :49:06.Jones is talking about having to disconnect bash deal with this

:49:07. > :49:13.disconnection with communities. No sense from him he wants to take

:49:14. > :49:18.responsibility for it. In reality he was heading up a campaign to remain

:49:19. > :49:24.in that palpably failed in Wales. Clearly, the question is being asked

:49:25. > :49:30.that the Assembly campaign. The reality was all of the politicians

:49:31. > :49:36.in Wales including us were focused on the Assembly at the same time

:49:37. > :49:38.Wales was heading towards a Brexit. On the Brexit side, they were

:49:39. > :49:42.delighted with that. They were pleased with the direction this was

:49:43. > :49:48.going. From the Remain side laboured in particular they weren't engaging

:49:49. > :49:56.with people on the doorstep. The huge fear was the word confuse

:49:57. > :49:59.people. When they did go out and they witnessed this, it was an

:50:00. > :50:03.extraordinary example of momentum in politics. When the anti-EU

:50:04. > :50:11.sentiments, particularly in the South Wales Valleys, had established

:50:12. > :50:13.itself you couldn't remove it. Compare and contrast by what we saw

:50:14. > :50:23.in Northern Ireland, Scotland and London. What did they do that Wales

:50:24. > :50:26.didn't? They all started from different political places. In

:50:27. > :50:34.Scotland with another debate about Scotland's constitutional process.

:50:35. > :50:38.In Wales, the Constitution has been a bit more settled. This is the

:50:39. > :50:50.first time we'd had some of these debates. People may be felt they

:50:51. > :50:55.hadn't been heard before. Do get the sense, it is necessarily Scotland is

:50:56. > :51:01.plural European, people feel they have been listened to. Scotland have

:51:02. > :51:07.been thinking about constitutional issues and understand how the EU

:51:08. > :51:12.impact on their life. Europe hasn't been high on the political agenda in

:51:13. > :51:17.Wales. We have heard an awful lot this

:51:18. > :51:24.morning from the challenge facing Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the

:51:25. > :51:30.-- Leader of the Opposition. What about the leader of the Conservative

:51:31. > :51:36.Party? How likely is it we might face a general election this year.

:51:37. > :51:42.The big question seems to be is it inevitable that we will have a

:51:43. > :51:48.Brexit ear as the next prime in day? That person will be heading up the

:51:49. > :51:50.negotiations and will have to reflect the democratic will of the

:51:51. > :51:56.United Kingdom and it would be odd if that person was and is prominent

:51:57. > :52:01.in the campaign. The flip side is, how divisive this has been for so

:52:02. > :52:05.many people. It was a narrow victory to leave in the end. There is a huge

:52:06. > :52:11.Shankhar the population who still has to be represented. Yuri former

:52:12. > :52:16.political strategist, if you were advising Labour MPs at the moment,

:52:17. > :52:20.when you look at the Conservatives think there are a fair of problems

:52:21. > :52:25.going on there, is this the good time for them to take out there

:52:26. > :52:31.leader? Labour has been and the pressure for nine months. Is it a

:52:32. > :52:37.surprise we have yet more pressure in a moment of crisis? I wonder if a

:52:38. > :52:40.general election is the right thing. The Pru is being endorsements for a

:52:41. > :52:48.new Prime Minister, the cons being more stability as we are in a

:52:49. > :52:51.uncertain period. If you're the leader of the Conservative Party,

:52:52. > :53:02.you would go for a fresh election. You could have a split Labour Party.

:53:03. > :53:07.Look at Gordon Brown's experience. Perhaps, you would but so many

:53:08. > :53:12.factors to take into consideration. Either parties -- are the parties in

:53:13. > :53:18.any state to fight a general election? Is the media in any state

:53:19. > :53:25.to take on another general election? What about the next week or two?

:53:26. > :53:28.That is cabinets sorry morning, First Minister's Questions on

:53:29. > :53:38.Wednesday. It is difficult to predict. It is worth saying we have

:53:39. > :53:43.got to of the major parties are not bound. That is all too scene in the

:53:44. > :53:51.events playing out of this morning in labour. The fundamental question

:53:52. > :53:58.is a rough time scale has been set out by David Cameron in terms of the

:53:59. > :54:02.leadership election in the summer. Once that leader is in place, to put

:54:03. > :54:09.together a negotiating team and to set the motion. Where there it is

:54:10. > :54:12.because in the U, whether that timescale is feasible, bearing in

:54:13. > :54:16.mind the tough talking we have had from the EU already. When that they

:54:17. > :54:24.do she seemed team starts, Carwyn Jones wants to be in a top team that

:54:25. > :54:28.goes out and stop is that likely? Him and the first ministers of more

:54:29. > :54:36.from Ireland and Scotland? Part of the team perhaps but how well heard

:54:37. > :54:39.Will our voices be? Carwyn Jones has we can considered -- compared with

:54:40. > :54:41.Nicola Sturgeon. That's it from me at the end

:54:42. > :54:44.of a momentous week. We'll be back next Sunday

:54:45. > :54:46.with all the latest news. You can follow all the latest

:54:47. > :54:48.developments on Twitter, Diolch am wylio, thanks

:54:49. > :54:53.for watching, time to go added together. OK, thank you very

:54:54. > :55:05.much indeed. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back, in a moment we'll look

:55:06. > :55:20.ahead to what's going to be Let's give a look at what we have

:55:21. > :55:26.behind us. The world's press and cameras are here. This is the back

:55:27. > :55:29.short of us, where we are along with the other networks and international

:55:30. > :55:34.networks following the story as it unravels. It is turning out to be

:55:35. > :55:39.sunny and warm day here in Westminster. Those who didn't watch

:55:40. > :55:44.the Sunday Politics in East Midlands, I can tell you that Vernon

:55:45. > :55:47.Coker, the Northern Ireland Shadow Minister, has said he is positioning

:55:48. > :55:53.his position in the Shadow Cabinet as well, as well as the shadow

:55:54. > :55:57.Scottish secretary Iain Murray. In a moment we will be looking ahead to a

:55:58. > :56:07.busy week in politics but first let's go to Jo. As you said, it is

:56:08. > :56:11.all going on, we have a vote of no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn,

:56:12. > :56:19.Shadow Cabinet resignations with more expected later today, and with

:56:20. > :56:24.any at all the grass movement Momentum will be very important.

:56:25. > :56:29.With me now is James Schneider from that group, joined by Stephen

:56:30. > :56:36.Kinnock, who backs that no-confidence motion. What is wrong

:56:37. > :56:39.with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? In terms of accountability it was a

:56:40. > :56:44.half-hearted and lacklustre campaign, and led to the wrong

:56:45. > :56:47.result for the people we are elected to represent. There is a real

:56:48. > :56:51.important issue of capability as well. The results of the referendum

:56:52. > :56:56.has completely changed British politics. The next free, five, ten

:56:57. > :57:01.years will be about the Brexit negotiations. We need a negotiating

:57:02. > :57:05.team where the Leader of the Opposition plays a key role, that

:57:06. > :57:09.means he has to be a negotiator, someone who can roll up their

:57:10. > :57:13.sleeves and work to secure the best possible deal for the British

:57:14. > :57:17.people. Whilst I have a huge amount of respect for Jeremy as a

:57:18. > :57:22.politician, he's not a negotiator. I don't think he has the skills or

:57:23. > :57:27.experience we need. It is over, we have had Shadow Cabinet

:57:28. > :57:32.resignations, it has been confirmed Iain Murray will resign, the Labour

:57:33. > :57:37.Party doesn't have any MPs who could serve in Scotland in that Shadow

:57:38. > :57:43.Cabinet, he has got to go. He doesn't have to go at all. The

:57:44. > :57:47.membership is still behind him. More importantly, the country cannot

:57:48. > :57:51.afford for us to be having this divisive civil war right now.

:57:52. > :57:55.Politics has changed, we are in this crisis period, and I think we will

:57:56. > :57:59.be looked on very badly by the electorate for having spent the next

:58:00. > :58:02.three months talking about ourselves, fighting with ourselves,

:58:03. > :58:07.rather than putting together a strong case for how we can get

:58:08. > :58:12.something decent out of this Brexit. But how does he go on from here? If

:58:13. > :58:18.you doesn't have the support, he cannot fill those posts. Of course

:58:19. > :58:25.it can go on. People will fill those positions. Diane Abbott, a member of

:58:26. > :58:28.the Shadow Cabinet, very supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, has just said that

:58:29. > :58:34.no-confidence motion is nonsense really. It has no status and you

:58:35. > :58:37.should go on from another party. Of course it will be up to Jeremy to

:58:38. > :58:42.decide whether he wants to stand again. The key point about the

:58:43. > :58:48.mandate is that it is true he got a thumping mandate but that was then

:58:49. > :58:51.and this is now. What I think is very important is the membership

:58:52. > :58:55.understands we are going to have a general election before the end of

:58:56. > :58:59.this year. The new Tory leader will have to seek a fresh mandate, and

:59:00. > :59:07.the mandate for the leader 's pre-referendum is completely

:59:08. > :59:10.different to the post referendum. That is completely untrue. If you

:59:11. > :59:14.look at the response from the grass-roots to this corner of

:59:15. > :59:18.no-confidence, there is a petition calling for no-confidence which has

:59:19. > :59:26.maybe 1000 people have signed it online. Many more of called for a

:59:27. > :59:30.vote of confidence for him. We cannot afford to have this silly

:59:31. > :59:35.infighting. Right now, we should be talking about what offer we will

:59:36. > :59:40.make to those voters that have left Labour, those voters that voted for

:59:41. > :59:45.Brexit. What felt we will make and how to play a constructive role in

:59:46. > :59:48.this exit negotiation. Having a three-month long fight, which Jeremy

:59:49. > :59:54.Corbyn will win, is not the way to do it. I hope the membership will

:59:55. > :59:57.understand that the world has completely changed since the

:59:58. > :00:01.Thursday result, and that's why the job description for the leader of

:00:02. > :00:05.the Labour Party has completely changed. The motion of no confidence

:00:06. > :00:09.has been put in motion so the idea that we are not now going to have

:00:10. > :00:14.this divisive debates, I'm afraid it is happening so let's wake up, smell

:00:15. > :00:18.the coffee and move on. But what about the point that Jeremy Corbyn

:00:19. > :00:23.will win another leadership contest, if the membership is still very much

:00:24. > :00:28.behind him he will plead again. That is the debate we must have. I hope

:00:29. > :00:32.we can refrain so the membership can see we need a different job

:00:33. > :00:39.description. Who could do this better than Jeremy Corbyn? Someone

:00:40. > :00:42.who is used to being in a room where people disagree with him. Jeremy

:00:43. > :00:47.Corbyn is used to being part of rallies where everybody agrees with

:00:48. > :00:51.him. But you have to have an idea. Because of the Labour leadership

:00:52. > :00:57.rules, if you want to have a new leader in place, who will it be? You

:00:58. > :01:01.have to rally round someone. You are not going to draw me on putting

:01:02. > :01:04.names out there. We have to get candidates to set out their stall

:01:05. > :01:09.but they have to be basing their stall on the new job description. In

:01:10. > :01:17.a way Jeremy Corbyn lost the referendum, he was not on the site

:01:18. > :01:26.to leave the EU. Neither was I. I was pro-quote-macro. So was I, we

:01:27. > :01:31.lost. In the same way it would be silly to blame you for the fact that

:01:32. > :01:37.something like 60% of people in your constituency voted for Leave, that

:01:38. > :01:41.is not the right response. This debate is going to continue whether

:01:42. > :01:47.I am going to stop it or not but that is it from us here. Back to

:01:48. > :01:56.you, Andrew. Just to confirm that Iain Murray has resigned live

:01:57. > :02:00.on-air. We have our panel back here for the final few moments on our

:02:01. > :02:07.network broadcast. Just to finish off on what has happened, the Labour

:02:08. > :02:13.Party has Tom Watson stuck in the mud in Glastonbury but probably on

:02:14. > :02:19.his way back now, deputy leader, Old Labour, what will his role be? I can

:02:20. > :02:26.see a way in which he presents himself as a stability candidate. At

:02:27. > :02:31.the same election Jeremy Corbyn won convincingly, so did Tom Watson, and

:02:32. > :02:38.he has his own support base. He was involved in another Labour coup you

:02:39. > :02:44.remember some time ago. With Gordon Brown. I think he would come out of

:02:45. > :02:55.this quite well. We were talking earlier about a lame duck

:02:56. > :02:58.government, almost most important is the Chancellor that has gone

:02:59. > :03:02.missing. Doesn't George Osborne, given the potential short-term

:03:03. > :03:09.impact on the markets, have to say something?

:03:10. > :03:15.In a certain these same as the Governor of the Bank of England did.

:03:16. > :03:19.What I have heard, he has been talking to financial institutions.

:03:20. > :03:23.The government can do enough to prevent absolutely -- absolute

:03:24. > :03:27.pandemonium in either the equity markets or the currency markets,

:03:28. > :03:31.rather than the Guild markets. Can they do enough to prevent a real

:03:32. > :03:36.economy downturn in either this quarter or the next quarter. I think

:03:37. > :03:40.it is out of their hands. There might be a general election during a

:03:41. > :03:47.recession, relatively soon. I cannot imagine the last time that happened

:03:48. > :03:50.in this country. The Tories have got to choose a new leader to be Prime

:03:51. > :03:55.Minister. The Prime Minister has got to give a rough idea of how he's

:03:56. > :04:00.going to negotiate. Or she. I think in this case, probably not. We will

:04:01. > :04:05.see. How they are going to negotiate out of the EU. Should they call an

:04:06. > :04:10.election first to get a mandate for that? I think this is a red herring.

:04:11. > :04:15.I cannot see why any new arrival at Number 10 would want to take that

:04:16. > :04:21.risk. Remember how wafer thin the Tory majority is already. This is an

:04:22. > :04:25.incredibly febrile atmosphere. It feels too unpredictable, I would

:04:26. > :04:30.have thought, for any new prime ministers to take that risk. Too big

:04:31. > :04:35.a risk? Absolutely. Even if the Labour Party is still in chaos? If

:04:36. > :04:39.the Labour Party brings in a leader who is less alienating to large

:04:40. > :04:43.parts of the country, it will focus the minds of the Conservatives. The

:04:44. > :04:46.big advantage at the Conservatives have is the probably have the money

:04:47. > :04:53.to fight another election, Labour do not. Would a new leader of the

:04:54. > :04:57.Conservative Party, if there is still running gorilla war against

:04:58. > :05:01.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, would they be tempted to call an election

:05:02. > :05:06.or would it be too big a risk? When there is a change of Prime Minister,

:05:07. > :05:10.voters quite like the idea they should have a say. Lots of people in

:05:11. > :05:15.Westminster have been influenced by what happened to Gordon Brown in

:05:16. > :05:21.2007. He took over without a general election and always seemed to lack

:05:22. > :05:28.legitimacy as a result. He did not even have an internal competitive

:05:29. > :05:31.Labour Party. That is different. Boris Johnson will have to go

:05:32. > :05:36.through quite a slog against a serious rival to get that job, which

:05:37. > :05:42.lends a certain degree of legitimacy, so it is not incumbent

:05:43. > :05:45.on him or her to call an election. If they called an election and

:05:46. > :05:50.Jeremy Corbyn was leader, you would expect them to win. That is why

:05:51. > :05:55.Labour are going out of their way to install a more credible leader,

:05:56. > :06:02.before that happens. We cannot have an election in November. We will

:06:03. > :06:07.see. Stay tuned to the news channel for updates throughout the day, and

:06:08. > :06:12.tonight on BBC One, at 6:30pm, there is a Question Time special. The

:06:13. > :06:15.Daily Politics tomorrow is on at the earlier time of 11 o'clock.

:06:16. > :06:21.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.