03/07/2016

:00:37. > :00:43.Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

:00:44. > :00:45.after a Leave vote in the referendum.

:00:46. > :00:52.Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

:00:53. > :00:56.to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

:00:57. > :00:59.He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

:01:00. > :01:11.The rule books are being re-written, so what's next for Wales in Europe?

:01:12. > :01:23.And one of Labour's big beasts warns us of the danger facing the party.

:01:24. > :01:26.And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

:01:27. > :01:30.who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

:01:31. > :01:36.them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

:01:37. > :01:40.Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:41. > :01:43.So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

:01:44. > :01:45.candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

:01:46. > :01:51.Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

:01:52. > :01:55.who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

:01:56. > :02:02.This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

:02:03. > :02:08.We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

:02:09. > :02:12.but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

:02:13. > :02:16.business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

:02:17. > :02:21.It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

:02:22. > :02:24.competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

:02:25. > :02:29.upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

:02:30. > :02:36.establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

:02:37. > :02:40.once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

:02:41. > :02:45.two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

:02:46. > :02:50.is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

:02:51. > :02:54.the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

:02:55. > :02:57.this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

:02:58. > :03:01.place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

:03:02. > :03:06.candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

:03:07. > :03:10.ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

:03:11. > :03:13.Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

:03:14. > :03:16.country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

:03:17. > :03:21.should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

:03:22. > :03:27.taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

:03:28. > :03:31.to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

:03:32. > :03:36.commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

:03:37. > :03:41.is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

:03:42. > :03:43.and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

:03:44. > :03:45.Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

:03:46. > :03:50.to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

:03:51. > :03:56.Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

:03:57. > :03:59.consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

:04:00. > :04:04.that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

:04:05. > :04:08.Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

:04:09. > :04:14.think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

:04:15. > :04:18.have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

:04:19. > :04:22.he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

:04:23. > :04:25.ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

:04:26. > :04:30.with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

:04:31. > :04:34.most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

:04:35. > :04:38.honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

:04:39. > :04:44.from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

:04:45. > :04:47.moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

:04:48. > :04:50.Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

:04:51. > :04:54.about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

:04:55. > :05:00.Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

:05:01. > :05:05.last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

:05:06. > :05:08.not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

:05:09. > :05:14.narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

:05:15. > :05:22.in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

:05:23. > :05:27.different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

:05:28. > :05:33.bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

:05:34. > :05:40.Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

:05:41. > :05:48.schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

:05:49. > :05:56.out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

:05:57. > :06:01.from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

:06:02. > :06:04.She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

:06:05. > :06:09.that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

:06:10. > :06:15.competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

:06:16. > :06:21.That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

:06:22. > :06:26.trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

:06:27. > :06:30.with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

:06:31. > :06:33.question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

:06:34. > :06:37.ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

:06:38. > :06:42.with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

:06:43. > :06:46.impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

:06:47. > :06:50.herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

:06:51. > :06:55.events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

:06:56. > :07:01.Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

:07:02. > :07:08.into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

:07:09. > :07:11.the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

:07:12. > :07:18.That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

:07:19. > :07:25.Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

:07:26. > :07:28.country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

:07:29. > :07:34.or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

:07:35. > :07:38.dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

:07:39. > :07:41.Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

:07:42. > :07:46.that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

:07:47. > :07:52.on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

:07:53. > :07:58.serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

:07:59. > :08:05.two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

:08:06. > :08:07.could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

:08:08. > :08:13.can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

:08:14. > :08:15.anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

:08:16. > :08:21.ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

:08:22. > :08:26.others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

:08:27. > :08:31.presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

:08:32. > :08:36.you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

:08:37. > :08:41.particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

:08:42. > :08:45.movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

:08:46. > :08:52.will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

:08:53. > :08:57.side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

:08:58. > :09:01.Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

:09:02. > :09:04.contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

:09:05. > :09:06.Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

:09:07. > :09:10.Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

:09:11. > :09:12.If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

:09:13. > :09:14.we must fully implement the instruction given to us

:09:15. > :09:21.for membership of the single market

:09:22. > :09:25.if it entails the movement of people.

:09:26. > :09:31.Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

:09:32. > :09:48.Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

:09:49. > :09:52.to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

:09:53. > :09:58.result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

:09:59. > :10:03.I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

:10:04. > :10:06.referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

:10:07. > :10:10.have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

:10:11. > :10:14.netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

:10:15. > :10:18.Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

:10:19. > :10:23.this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

:10:24. > :10:27.have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

:10:28. > :10:31.than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

:10:32. > :10:36.perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

:10:37. > :10:40.extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

:10:41. > :10:45.serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

:10:46. > :10:50.you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

:10:51. > :10:58.Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

:10:59. > :11:02.oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

:11:03. > :11:06.will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

:11:07. > :11:09.because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

:11:10. > :11:16.a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

:11:17. > :11:23.important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

:11:24. > :11:27.three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

:11:28. > :11:32.Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

:11:33. > :11:41.understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

:11:42. > :11:45.ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

:11:46. > :11:48.you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

:11:49. > :11:52.between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

:11:53. > :11:55.a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

:11:56. > :12:00.Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

:12:01. > :12:03.Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

:12:04. > :12:06.Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

:12:07. > :12:11.detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

:12:12. > :12:15.crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

:12:16. > :12:19.commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

:12:20. > :12:24.have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

:12:25. > :12:30.about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

:12:31. > :12:35.50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

:12:36. > :12:40.we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

:12:41. > :12:46.want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

:12:47. > :12:49.prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

:12:50. > :12:52.that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

:12:53. > :12:59.President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

:13:00. > :13:03.expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

:13:04. > :13:08.Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

:13:09. > :13:12.don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

:13:13. > :13:16.That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

:13:17. > :13:22.Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

:13:23. > :13:25.way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

:13:26. > :13:29.there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

:13:30. > :13:36.than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

:13:37. > :13:40.but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

:13:41. > :13:46.in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

:13:47. > :13:49.had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

:13:50. > :13:57.quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

:13:58. > :14:01.the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

:14:02. > :14:04.restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

:14:05. > :14:09.restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

:14:10. > :14:13.direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

:14:14. > :14:18.her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

:14:19. > :14:21.accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

:14:22. > :14:28.this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

:14:29. > :14:33.between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

:14:34. > :14:36.Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

:14:37. > :14:41.Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

:14:42. > :14:48.Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

:14:49. > :14:51.Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

:14:52. > :14:54.very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

:14:55. > :14:57.the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

:14:58. > :14:58.compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

:14:59. > :15:11.government. What's most important quality for

:15:12. > :15:16.the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

:15:17. > :15:24.They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

:15:25. > :15:33.the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

:15:34. > :15:40.is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

:15:41. > :15:44.the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

:15:45. > :15:48.If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

:15:49. > :15:51.take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

:15:52. > :15:58.Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

:15:59. > :16:03.Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

:16:04. > :16:14.to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

:16:15. > :16:19.but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

:16:20. > :16:23.one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

:16:24. > :16:27.Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

:16:28. > :16:35.known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

:16:36. > :16:39.tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

:16:40. > :16:45.emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

:16:46. > :16:48.overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

:16:49. > :16:54.among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

:16:55. > :16:59.country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

:17:00. > :17:03.the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

:17:04. > :17:08.would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

:17:09. > :17:12.be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

:17:13. > :17:15.think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

:17:16. > :17:20.party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

:17:21. > :17:24.mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

:17:25. > :17:30.it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

:17:31. > :17:34.days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

:17:35. > :17:37.has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

:17:38. > :17:39.Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

:17:40. > :17:40.the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

:17:41. > :17:43.with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

:17:44. > :17:46.expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

:17:47. > :17:49.Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

:17:50. > :18:03.I think people may look back on this week as the week

:18:04. > :18:06.when the Labour Party committed suicide.

:18:07. > :18:09.He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

:18:10. > :18:13.The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

:18:14. > :18:31.sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:18:32. > :18:33.he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

:18:34. > :18:35.ahead of this EU referendum debate.

:18:36. > :18:40.and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

:18:41. > :18:45.in internal manoeuvring at this time.

:18:46. > :18:52.In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

:18:53. > :18:56.Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

:18:57. > :19:00.at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

:19:01. > :19:02.on the eve of a no-confidence vote

:19:03. > :19:08.his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

:19:09. > :19:11.It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

:19:12. > :19:14.where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

:19:15. > :19:17."I like you, you've always been my friend.

:19:18. > :19:20.I appreciate what you've tried to do,

:19:21. > :19:27.but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

:19:28. > :19:30.With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

:19:31. > :19:40.He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

:19:41. > :19:42.And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

:19:43. > :19:47.his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

:19:48. > :19:52.I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:19:53. > :19:58.and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

:19:59. > :20:02.The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:20:03. > :20:06.They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:07. > :20:09.They are interested in the Falklands.

:20:10. > :20:13.They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

:20:14. > :20:15.But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:16. > :20:22.of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:23. > :20:25.On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

:20:26. > :20:29.the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

:20:30. > :20:37.Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

:20:38. > :20:42.Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

:20:43. > :20:48.I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

:20:49. > :20:57.It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

:20:58. > :21:01.On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:21:02. > :21:05.Are you going to stand for the leadership?

:21:06. > :21:10.I'll be saying something later today.

:21:11. > :21:12.It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

:21:13. > :21:16.We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

:21:17. > :21:19.four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

:21:20. > :21:21.have gone into his office and are trying

:21:22. > :21:29.As it happened, they weren't invited in.

:21:30. > :21:32.Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

:21:33. > :21:34.and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:35. > :21:41.retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:42. > :21:50.no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:51. > :21:54.We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:55. > :21:56.a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

:21:57. > :21:59.the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:22:00. > :22:01.He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:22:02. > :22:06.a new generation of politicians to come forward.

:22:07. > :22:11.This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

:22:12. > :22:13.who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

:22:14. > :22:17.And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

:22:18. > :22:22.These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:23. > :22:25.You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:26. > :22:28.Is that usurping traditional party structures?

:22:29. > :22:33.The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

:22:34. > :22:36.basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

:22:37. > :22:39.it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:40. > :22:42.If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

:22:43. > :22:45.than have soundbites and a polished media performance

:22:46. > :22:51.It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

:22:52. > :22:56.They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

:22:57. > :23:02.With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

:23:03. > :23:07.over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:08. > :23:09.But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

:23:10. > :23:12.Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:13. > :23:20.Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:21. > :23:26.still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:27. > :23:34.Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:35. > :23:38.I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:39. > :23:41.to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

:23:42. > :23:49.How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:50. > :23:55.He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:56. > :23:59.MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:24:00. > :24:03.the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:24:04. > :24:06.Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:07. > :24:12.actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:13. > :24:16.that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:17. > :24:20.but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

:24:21. > :24:26.just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:27. > :24:32.well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

:24:33. > :24:37.we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:38. > :24:41.seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:42. > :24:47.saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:48. > :24:51.well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:52. > :24:57.who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:58. > :25:02.interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:25:03. > :25:08.needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:09. > :25:11.seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:12. > :25:19.problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:20. > :25:24.stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:25. > :25:30.issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:31. > :25:34.country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:35. > :25:38.you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:39. > :25:42.Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:43. > :25:46.the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:47. > :25:53.principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:54. > :25:57.Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:58. > :26:02.I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:26:03. > :26:08.The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:09. > :26:16.against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

:26:17. > :26:19.To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:20. > :26:25.members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:26. > :26:29.with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:30. > :26:39.membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:40. > :26:43.responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:44. > :26:50.mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:51. > :26:56.suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:57. > :27:01.we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:27:02. > :27:06.both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

:27:07. > :27:09.legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:10. > :27:18.continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:19. > :27:24.about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:25. > :27:28.is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:29. > :27:34.negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:35. > :27:38.Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:39. > :27:44.has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:45. > :27:52.do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:53. > :27:56.in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:57. > :28:03.Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:28:04. > :28:09.happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:10. > :28:15.credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:16. > :28:21.country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:22. > :28:25.falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:26. > :28:29.negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:30. > :28:33.to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:34. > :28:38.at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:39. > :28:42.credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

:28:43. > :28:48.squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:49. > :28:52.politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:53. > :28:57.contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:58. > :29:02.cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:29:03. > :29:07.a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:08. > :29:15.either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:16. > :29:21.That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:22. > :29:28.agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:29. > :29:34.don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:35. > :29:38.on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:39. > :29:42.led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:43. > :29:46.collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:47. > :29:52.where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:53. > :29:55.there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:56. > :30:02.a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:30:03. > :30:11.I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:12. > :30:16.of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:17. > :30:19.Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:20. > :30:24.candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:25. > :30:29.only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:30. > :30:33.interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:34. > :30:37.motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:38. > :30:41.didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:42. > :30:45.keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:46. > :30:48.problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:49. > :30:53.that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:54. > :30:58.your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:59. > :31:03.certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:31:04. > :31:10.not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:11. > :31:13.electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:14. > :31:20.look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:21. > :31:25.like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:26. > :31:37.both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:38. > :31:41.seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

:31:42. > :31:45.those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:46. > :31:49.want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:50. > :31:54.destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:55. > :31:58.rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:59. > :32:01.in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:32:02. > :32:04.with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:05. > :32:11.talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:12. > :32:16.while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:17. > :32:19.When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:20. > :32:25.end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:26. > :32:29.I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:30. > :32:30.Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:31. > :32:34.times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:35. > :32:35.the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:36. > :32:37.Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:38. > :32:40.was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:41. > :32:42.to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:43. > :32:46.part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:47. > :32:50.has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:51. > :32:58.attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:59. > :33:04.of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:33:05. > :33:09.he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:10. > :33:24.from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:25. > :33:30.Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:31. > :33:35.seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:36. > :33:38.to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:39. > :33:42.position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:43. > :33:47.of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:48. > :33:51.leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:52. > :33:58.opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:59. > :34:00.more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:34:01. > :34:08.The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:09. > :34:15.would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:16. > :34:19.the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

:34:20. > :34:23.want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:24. > :34:27.the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:28. > :34:31.shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:32. > :34:34.go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:35. > :34:40.only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:41. > :34:44.happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:45. > :34:49.means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:50. > :34:52.why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:53. > :34:56.from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:57. > :35:05.much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:35:06. > :35:08.incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:09. > :35:12.will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:13. > :35:16.for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:17. > :35:19.your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:20. > :35:26.same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:27. > :35:30.be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:31. > :35:37.democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:38. > :35:41.Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:42. > :35:49.membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:50. > :35:54.to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:55. > :35:57.Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:58. > :36:02.cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:36:03. > :36:07.but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:08. > :36:11.they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:12. > :36:16.put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:17. > :36:22.Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

:36:23. > :36:27.position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:28. > :36:31.have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:32. > :36:36.writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:37. > :36:39.go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:40. > :36:42.seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:43. > :36:45.appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:46. > :36:52.and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:53. > :37:00.logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:37:01. > :37:06.wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:07. > :37:09.other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:10. > :37:14.Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:15. > :37:18.motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:19. > :37:22.are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:23. > :37:26.standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:27. > :37:33.that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:34. > :37:40.are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:41. > :37:43.am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:44. > :37:49.broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:50. > :37:53.recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:54. > :37:57.further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:58. > :38:02.on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:38:03. > :38:07.conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:08. > :38:13.is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:14. > :38:16.can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:17. > :38:20.the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:21. > :38:24.the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:25. > :38:27.might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:28. > :38:31.which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:32. > :38:34.were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:35. > :38:39.thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:40. > :38:42.ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:43. > :38:48.way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:49. > :38:53.need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:54. > :39:00.if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:39:01. > :39:05.happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:39:06. > :39:08.will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:09. > :39:11.appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:12. > :39:15.honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:16. > :39:19.the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:20. > :39:26.other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:27. > :39:30.is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:31. > :39:37.decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:38. > :39:43.he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:44. > :39:48.happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:49. > :39:53.Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:54. > :39:57.think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:58. > :40:00.my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:40:01. > :40:04.matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:40:05. > :40:08.week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:09. > :40:12.how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:13. > :40:16.nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:17. > :40:22.possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:23. > :40:25.democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:26. > :40:31.unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:32. > :40:36.change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:37. > :40:38.is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

:40:39. > :40:42.convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

:40:43. > :40:48.this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

:40:49. > :40:55.would support. I want us to change the language around public

:40:56. > :40:59.expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

:41:00. > :41:04.elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

:41:05. > :41:10.convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

:41:11. > :41:19.governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

:41:20. > :41:27.miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

:41:28. > :41:33.logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

:41:34. > :41:40.your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

:41:41. > :41:41.are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

:41:42. > :41:43.you. It's coming up to 11:40,

:41:44. > :41:45.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:41:46. > :41:48.in Scotland, who leave us now At the end of another

:41:49. > :41:59.momentous week, welcome to the Sunday Politics

:42:00. > :42:00.Wales. Peter Hain tells us Labour

:42:01. > :42:04.is facing its worse crisis ever as the wrangling over

:42:05. > :42:08.the leadership continues. We give the runners and riders

:42:09. > :42:15.in the Tory leadership an outing. But first, in the middle

:42:16. > :42:18.of the political turmoil at Westminster, whoever eventually

:42:19. > :42:21.ends up as Prime Minister will have to sort out our

:42:22. > :42:23.relationship with the EU. So what do some of the big thinkers

:42:24. > :42:26.in Wales believe will, With rule books being re-written,

:42:27. > :42:31.Cemlyn Davies has been The history of Britain's place

:42:32. > :42:37.in Europe has been discussed thoroughly and extensively

:42:38. > :42:42.in countless textbooks like these. As a politics student

:42:43. > :42:45.here at Cardiff University, this is where I would come to find

:42:46. > :42:49.out more about the UK's relationship with the EEC as it was, and then

:42:50. > :42:54.with the EU, as it became. Now, it is time to write

:42:55. > :42:58.another chapter, what will the students of tomorrow read

:42:59. > :43:02.when they look back on this The treaty lays down

:43:03. > :43:11.a procedure for a member state It is laid down in Article 50

:43:12. > :43:17.of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union,

:43:18. > :43:19.known as the Lisbon Treaty. What we expect the British

:43:20. > :43:21.government to do now is to trigger the Article 50 procedure and to let

:43:22. > :43:25.us know exactly what it is that it So, effectively,

:43:26. > :43:31.the ball now is in the Effectively, that is

:43:32. > :43:36.the situation we are in, yes. The European Commission says

:43:37. > :43:39.it is in everyone's interests for the UK Government to act quickly

:43:40. > :43:42.and invoke Article 50. But the outgoing Prime Minister says

:43:43. > :43:47.that is a job he will Unless there is a government

:43:48. > :43:58.with a new Prime Minister I think it is wise to wait

:43:59. > :44:03.until it is clear who is able to do that and what the plan is once

:44:04. > :44:07.the article is triggered. Once Article 50 is triggered the UK

:44:08. > :44:11.will have two years to work out its

:44:12. > :44:14.withdrawal from the EU. Sir Emyr Jones Parry

:44:15. > :44:18.spent his career representing the UK A great deal of that work was done

:44:19. > :44:24.in Brussels. You are on a glide

:44:25. > :44:28.path to departure. Talking about the

:44:29. > :44:31.negotiating position. It is inherently weak

:44:32. > :44:34.because it isn't a negotiation which has

:44:35. > :44:36.to come to a conclusion It is a process where at the end

:44:37. > :44:45.of the day 27 countries will decide by qualified majority voting

:44:46. > :44:50.what the future relationship for the United Kingdom should be

:44:51. > :44:54.outside the EU. We've already seen what, for me,

:44:55. > :44:58.is a shaming experience of the European Council meeting last

:44:59. > :45:05.week and on the second day There may not be the capacity in

:45:06. > :45:13.Whitehall to engage in such complex We know the civil service has faced

:45:14. > :45:20.a lot of cuts in recent years, we know the European stream

:45:21. > :45:24.of the civil service in particular Making sure there is that

:45:25. > :45:29.capacity and that expertise, it will be absolutely crucial

:45:30. > :45:32.otherwise we're going to be at risk of

:45:33. > :45:38.negotiating a sub optimal deal. Much of the talk

:45:39. > :45:40.so far has been about the possibility of protecting the

:45:41. > :45:44.UK's place in the EU single market. It is not an option to stay

:45:45. > :45:47.in the single market. It is fantasy because every EU

:45:48. > :45:51.politician in the Lisbon Treaty, everything we know

:45:52. > :45:56.about Europe says the four freedoms One of those being

:45:57. > :46:00.freedom of movement. If you're in the single market

:46:01. > :46:03.to have to respect The Norway deal, the

:46:04. > :46:07.Switzerland deal, they all It is not on the agenda

:46:08. > :46:13.unless you are going to betray the British

:46:14. > :46:15.people on immigration. It would seem unlikely at the moment

:46:16. > :46:18.you would be able to divorce those two

:46:19. > :46:20.things but nevertheless, never underestimate the capacity

:46:21. > :46:23.of Brussels to find a solution if that means getting

:46:24. > :46:28.a good deal for the EU Last week's vote has also raised

:46:29. > :46:34.countless constitutional questions Concerned that Wales

:46:35. > :46:39.could soon be considered some sort of annex to England,

:46:40. > :46:42.Carwyn Jones has said the federal arrangement may be

:46:43. > :46:45.the best way forward. Meanwhile, in Scotland,

:46:46. > :46:48.a second independence referendum remains highly likely according to

:46:49. > :46:52.Nicola Sturgeon. Such a vote could be enough

:46:53. > :46:56.justification to rerun the EU referendum, says one former

:46:57. > :47:03.Welsh First Minister. The very serious and urgent prospect

:47:04. > :47:05.of a second independence referendum,

:47:06. > :47:07.which they would not trigger if they weren't sure

:47:08. > :47:09.they were going to win it and they would wanting to see consistent

:47:10. > :47:12.opinion polls at 60-40 in favour of independence, and the implications

:47:13. > :47:16.of that for the relationship between Scotland and England

:47:17. > :47:18.and Wales would make an awful lot of people say,

:47:19. > :47:22.yes, we voted for Leave but we Now that is a serious prospect

:47:23. > :47:28.we want a revote on this. With so many issues yet to be

:47:29. > :47:31.resolved it seems no textbook can help us navigate our way

:47:32. > :47:35.through these uncharted waters. No one knows what the next

:47:36. > :47:38.chapter will look like but what is clear is the way forward,

:47:39. > :47:46.whatever that is, won't be easy. While the European issue boils

:47:47. > :47:51.away, spare a thought Most MPs have turned

:47:52. > :47:56.on Jeremy Corbyn, but he says he has Lord Peter Hain held several cabinet

:47:57. > :48:03.roles in the last government. He told me Labour needs to reconnect

:48:04. > :48:08.with its core voters if it I was doing all my campaigning in

:48:09. > :48:15.the South Wales Valleys including in my former constituency of Neath,

:48:16. > :48:19.from the Gwent Valleys right through What was very clear is there

:48:20. > :48:27.is a whole group of citizens in those Valleys who almost

:48:28. > :48:31.to a person used to vote Labour, Left behind by globalisation,

:48:32. > :48:38.by enormous change in post-industrialised societies

:48:39. > :48:44.in which they are no proper jobs of the old kind, secure jobs,

:48:45. > :48:49.jobs that gave people pride and the sense of status,

:48:50. > :48:52.a sense of solidarity in large They were all trade

:48:53. > :48:56.union members, they All that is dissolved and I have

:48:57. > :49:03.watched it and felt it dissolve underneath me, as it were, in the 24

:49:04. > :49:09.years that I was Neath's MP. What does Labour need

:49:10. > :49:11.to do to reconnect with those voters who are turning

:49:12. > :49:14.to Ukip as it seems? Not only to Ukip but also,

:49:15. > :49:19.say in the Rhondda and other the Valley constituencies,

:49:20. > :49:23.to Plaid Cymru as well. It is a very dangerous

:49:24. > :49:26.moment for us. Remember, in the Welsh

:49:27. > :49:30.elections in May we polled the lowest share of the vote

:49:31. > :49:34.for Welsh Labour since 1918. Since the early days

:49:35. > :49:38.of the Labour Party. What we have to do is reform,

:49:39. > :49:44.refound our party in the communities but not through the old institutions

:49:45. > :49:47.which have disappeared, the trade Does Carwyn Jones realise

:49:48. > :49:52.there is this massive problem? When we have spoken to him

:49:53. > :49:54.about the referendum results what comes back is,

:49:55. > :49:56.they wanted to give the Tories a kicking and it was a matter

:49:57. > :50:00.of timing, not much else really Does Carwyn Jones realise

:50:01. > :50:03.the size of a problem you He doesn't seem to doing much

:50:04. > :50:11.about it if I may say so. What matters now is the party

:50:12. > :50:14.itself, local members, local council

:50:15. > :50:18.candidates who are going to be fighting elections pretty soon

:50:19. > :50:24.because things come around pretty quickly, that is May next year,

:50:25. > :50:30.need to energise and realise we are in a completely different

:50:31. > :50:33.political situation now. Of the kind that the Labour Party

:50:34. > :50:38.in Wales has not faced if ever in its history,

:50:39. > :50:44.since the time when we were first formed over a century ago,

:50:45. > :50:47.where we have to rebuild You are talking about next

:50:48. > :50:54.year's council elections. There is a possibility,

:50:55. > :50:57.I am sure you will know, of a snap The danger there would be,

:50:58. > :51:02.as you have already mentioned, Ukip may well sweep the board

:51:03. > :51:05.in those Valleys communities where they came fairly close in last

:51:06. > :51:10.year's general election. I don't see Ukip sweeping

:51:11. > :51:12.the board at all. We stand a very good chance

:51:13. > :51:15.as a Labour Party if we have a credible UK

:51:16. > :51:18.leadership, if we do. We haven't had that under Jeremy

:51:19. > :51:21.Corbyn. But only by a thorough

:51:22. > :51:29.grassroots to the very top re-energising of the party and

:51:30. > :51:34.reconnection with our voters because Welsh Labour and Labour cannot win

:51:35. > :51:40.an early election unless we have Under Jeremy Corbyn your

:51:41. > :51:50.membership has expanded. It is those precise members,

:51:51. > :51:54.the Labour former members you were describing, who have

:51:55. > :51:58.probably turned towards Jeremy Corbyn and would probably support

:51:59. > :52:00.him again if there was a Jeremy, to his credit, has brought

:52:01. > :52:08.a whole lot of people back into the party who had left us over

:52:09. > :52:13.Iraq, disillusionment with Doesn't he deserve

:52:14. > :52:16.a chance at an election? He has had nine months

:52:17. > :52:20.and there is a question for Do they see him as the

:52:21. > :52:25.future Prime Minister? Is he any good that the dispatch box

:52:26. > :52:30.at Prime Minister's Questions, is he actually capable,

:52:31. > :52:35.competent and able to do... The problem is that members

:52:36. > :52:42.last summer voted for him as a leader, party members did

:52:43. > :52:45.overwhelmingly, and he has that mandate that has to be recognised,

:52:46. > :52:50.but voters on the ground in Valley communities, as I experienced myself

:52:51. > :52:53.on the doorstep in recent weeks, although I knew it anyway,

:52:54. > :52:58.don't see him as a leader and will If there is a working-class

:52:59. > :53:04.voters our traditional base do not see him as a leader,

:53:05. > :53:06.that is our problem. If the membership is

:53:07. > :53:09.out of touch with our voting base then the voting base

:53:10. > :53:13.will turn on us as a party We didn't do well on May

:53:14. > :53:18.the 6th in the elections. We did very badly in Labour areas,

:53:19. > :53:22.traditional Labour, core, working-class areas right

:53:23. > :53:25.across the United Kingdom in last Thursday week's

:53:26. > :53:30.European referendum. The neon lights are flashing

:53:31. > :53:37.very brightly at the Labour Party as we decide how we're

:53:38. > :53:41.going to move forward out of what is Is there a danger that

:53:42. > :53:47.the party could split? You will know there will be a body

:53:48. > :53:51.of support for Jeremy Corbyn within the party, there is no

:53:52. > :53:55.support, or little support for him, Do you think they

:53:56. > :53:58.could be a split that between the Corbynistas, as they're

:53:59. > :54:03.known, and the rest in Parliament? Anybody who has organised splits

:54:04. > :54:06.in the party whether to the left,

:54:07. > :54:10.Arthur Scargill and others who left the Labour Party and set

:54:11. > :54:13.up their own party, the Socialist Party, or whether to

:54:14. > :54:17.the right, those who left to form the SDP and eventually allied

:54:18. > :54:19.with the Liberal Democrats, It has never gone anywhere,

:54:20. > :54:24.those splits. The SDP does not exist, the

:54:25. > :54:27.Scargillite party is But if Jeremy Corbyn stayed

:54:28. > :54:39.as leader and he has no support among the MPs

:54:40. > :54:43.who are working with him day-to-day. People in the membership

:54:44. > :54:45.are attacking MPs for being out of touch

:54:46. > :54:46.with the membership, MPs are more in touch

:54:47. > :54:50.with the voters than many In your decades in the Labour Party

:54:51. > :54:57.have you ever been as concerned as you are now about the future

:54:58. > :55:01.prospects of the Labour Party? I joined nearly 40 years ago and I

:55:02. > :55:07.went through the early 1980s We're being attacked

:55:08. > :55:19.from outside from the right as it were from Ukip,

:55:20. > :55:23.and in the centre from the Tories and to our left, in Wales's case,

:55:24. > :55:27.from Plaid Cymru and the Greens This is a major

:55:28. > :55:33.crisis for the party. We can get out of it,

:55:34. > :55:35.we can renew ourselves, we still have the agenda that

:55:36. > :55:39.the majority of people would vote So, I think there is

:55:40. > :55:46.all to gain if we set Re-routing ourselves

:55:47. > :55:52.in our communities Then, I think, we can

:55:53. > :55:59.win even including in There we are, Lord Peter Hain,

:56:00. > :56:05.thank you very much for your time. Now away from Labour's

:56:06. > :56:07.troubles, what do you make The five people who want to lead

:56:08. > :56:11.the party could be pared down Anthony Pickles is a former Chief of

:56:12. > :56:18.Staff for the Welsh Conservatives, while Shazia Awan is

:56:19. > :56:27.a former candidate. Thank you both very much for coming

:56:28. > :56:31.in this morning. What do we think in terms of who the next person should

:56:32. > :56:43.be? I know you are both full Stephen Crabb. It isn't helpful! Let's talk

:56:44. > :56:46.about, shouldn't it be a Leave campaign who leaves the party can

:56:47. > :56:50.smack this is a leadership campaign we didn't think we were going to

:56:51. > :56:59.have until 2019. Who would have thought if we had gone back 18

:57:00. > :57:05.months ago, we would be in this? We don't know all policy platforms all

:57:06. > :57:09.candidates are going to be stand on. We don't know the platforms come all

:57:10. > :57:13.the policies. Yet it seems it is going to come down to who people

:57:14. > :57:17.like in terms of how they are going to deal with the leaving the EU.

:57:18. > :57:23.Should it be more than that? There is no denying we are in an era

:57:24. > :57:27.of personality politics and we have to look at personalities like

:57:28. > :57:31.Michael Gove who has done the ultimate betrayal as it were. What

:57:32. > :57:35.he has done is much worse than what Ed Miliband did to his brother. Ed

:57:36. > :57:43.Miliband made secrets of the fact he might run. Michael Gove had denied

:57:44. > :57:46.it. That is troubling. Rachel Johnson has called Michael Gove a

:57:47. > :57:51.political psychopath. His wife is pulling the strings. Do

:57:52. > :57:58.you think that will work against him or do you want somebody who will

:57:59. > :58:03.take on that comparison, somebody with the killer touch? Isn't that

:58:04. > :58:05.the kind of steel you want? There's a lot of treachery in the

:58:06. > :58:13.Conservative Party and there always has been. What he has done, was

:58:14. > :58:15.Michael Gove has done since uncomfortably with grassroots

:58:16. > :58:20.Conservatives. It sits uncomfortably with me and I am no Boris Johnson

:58:21. > :58:27.fan. This is a betrayal of David Cameron and Boris Johnson. He got up

:58:28. > :58:33.at 7am and decided to throw his hat in the ring. I don't like that level

:58:34. > :58:38.of indecision. He upset the teachers when he was Education Secretary. He

:58:39. > :58:44.isn't a likeable person, he doesn't understand he doesn't have the

:58:45. > :58:50.same... He can't connect with people like Stephen Crabb can. We have got

:58:51. > :58:58.to be careful this doesn't turn out to be a beauty parade. Michael Gove

:58:59. > :59:03.would not win that! Wien in a time of political importance for the

:59:04. > :59:08.country, and bringing together social divisions we are seeing. The

:59:09. > :59:12.debate has got to happen, we've got to look at the issues and who will

:59:13. > :59:15.be best place to be leader of the party and Prime Minister. That is

:59:16. > :59:18.what the voters about. We have got to be careful we will slightly awake

:59:19. > :59:25.from playing the man not the ball. Is Theresa May unstoppable? I don't

:59:26. > :59:31.think so. MPs be taking standings across the week. There will be a lot

:59:32. > :59:36.of tearoom meetings where they listen to what each candidate is

:59:37. > :59:40.promising. When they get a Thursday, there will be the final ballot and

:59:41. > :59:45.the ballot of the membership which will close on the 9th of September

:59:46. > :59:48.stop one of the things I guess the referendum campaign highlighted, if

:59:49. > :59:52.it was needed, this massive chasm between those who want to leave and

:59:53. > :00:00.those who want to remain. The campaign didn't help that drift.

:00:01. > :00:03.It's made much wider. What is the big challenge to unite those both

:00:04. > :00:14.sides? I was very much for Remain. A lot of

:00:15. > :00:17.my friends voted for Brexit. For me, I look at the Welsh Conservative

:00:18. > :00:23.Party and then look at their board, they've got one woman. They have

:00:24. > :00:29.never had any ethnic minorities on the board. Their board is not

:00:30. > :00:36.reflective of modern Wales Britain. In the Conservative Party in Wales

:00:37. > :00:41.they have never elected a female MP from Wales in a Welsh constituency.

:00:42. > :00:44.We are over half the population and there are problems in the

:00:45. > :00:50.Conservative Party in Wales need be sorted out. Even crab is the man who

:00:51. > :00:54.may be able to address those. You wrote a couple of months back and

:00:55. > :00:57.article in one of the political magazines you were left in tears

:00:58. > :01:04.after one of your hand that selections in Wales. Why? What went

:01:05. > :01:09.on? IME tough cookie, it takes a lot to make me shed a tear and I've

:01:10. > :01:13.never shed a tear ever again for anything that has happened with the

:01:14. > :01:21.Conservatives. It was an issue with the selection. I had a really good

:01:22. > :01:27.group of people around me. I was asked on May view is of the British

:01:28. > :01:32.Raj. As an ethnic minority, that is deeply inappropriate. BS poster ask

:01:33. > :01:41.each candidate the same thing. I was asked what my vote was fast my

:01:42. > :01:50.opinion was on back policemen and what might... The need to address

:01:51. > :01:54.that. You're somebody who has got a good novice of the party in Wales.

:01:55. > :02:00.Do you recognise this? I'm really sorry to hear that. Then it's going

:02:01. > :02:04.to be changes. I know Jonathan Evans, chairman of the Conservatives

:02:05. > :02:09.is reviewing the outcome of the Assembly election. Andrew RT Davies

:02:10. > :02:12.is working with him closely on that. We will see structural changes to

:02:13. > :02:16.the way the party operates in Wales and that is right. Going back to the

:02:17. > :02:23.Parliamentary elements of this, you say some of your friends voted for

:02:24. > :02:27.Leave. In terms of the MPs, the accusations that were thrown around

:02:28. > :02:32.of lies and misleading of all kinds of things, that is not going to be

:02:33. > :02:38.easy to kiss and make up on? This campaign has got really dirty. It is

:02:39. > :02:43.really uncomfortable. Although I am backing Stephen Crabb, I think

:02:44. > :02:48.Theresa May will potentially do this became our next leader. She has

:02:49. > :02:52.stood up against a lot of difficult issues. She stood up against Police

:02:53. > :02:59.Federation when they told that she couldn't deport Abu Qatada. She flew

:03:00. > :03:03.to Jordan and got home deported. I like the fact when she was doing her

:03:04. > :03:07.speech and in the week she said, I am not one for gossip or tooling the

:03:08. > :03:13.TV studios, I want to get the job done. As a proud feminist I quite

:03:14. > :03:17.liked the idea of Theresa May as Prime Minister. Hillary Clinton as

:03:18. > :03:27.president, and the Merkel in Germany. You could be saying let's

:03:28. > :03:36.have an all woman ticket. And select some Flamini is a loose cannon. Her

:03:37. > :03:41.reaction on the Brexit was quite vocal. I get a she is police that

:03:42. > :03:47.she misjudged the mood. The BBC journalist looked close to tears.

:03:48. > :03:57.Theresa May has said she was set up a new Department to look at how we

:03:58. > :04:02.exit the EU. We got a lot of time left but should there be a general

:04:03. > :04:05.election? Whoever wins this contest will be Prime Minister and will have

:04:06. > :04:11.his or her own policies to put through. A lot of the candidates

:04:12. > :04:18.have ruled that out. You've got a look at the situation we're in into

:04:19. > :04:24.mass of market stability. -- in terms. We've got legislation in

:04:25. > :04:27.Parliament. That is not say that couldn't be changed or amended that

:04:28. > :04:32.it would a consensus to do that. The Prime Minister will want to get

:04:33. > :04:35.their feet under the desk at Number 10, they will want to look at other

:04:36. > :04:37.Brexit because she shows are looking at is that those conversations.

:04:38. > :04:39.Don't forget you follow all next week's resignations,

:04:40. > :04:42.is there anyone left? on Twitter.

:04:43. > :04:45.We're @walespolitics, but for now that's all from me.

:04:46. > :04:51.Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching, time to go back to Andrew.

:04:52. > :04:53.you have heard him loud and clear. I hope you are reported to Theresa

:04:54. > :04:54.May. That's all we have time for.

:04:55. > :05:00.Back to Andrew. Let's return to Labour's travails

:05:01. > :05:03.now, and we're joined now from Hull by the former deputy leader

:05:04. > :05:14.of the Labour Party, John Prescott. Earlier in this programme am a Barry

:05:15. > :05:19.Gardiner, a member of the Shadow Cabinet, said that what was needed

:05:20. > :05:24.was an honest broker to resolve the issue between Mr Corbyn and the

:05:25. > :05:27.parliamentary party and the party in the country. He named you as a

:05:28. > :05:34.potential honest broker. Are you up for it? I'm amazed. He twists and

:05:35. > :05:38.turns every 24 hours. And all of a sudden, when I appear on your

:05:39. > :05:42.programme, I am told I am to be the honest broker. There is no doubt

:05:43. > :05:48.that I love my party, the Labour Party. I would always do whatever

:05:49. > :05:52.was helpful. But simply because I had a few negotiating with is with

:05:53. > :05:57.Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy proposition. You have to have the

:05:58. > :06:01.will, and the Will this time must be, can we avoid the disaster we are

:06:02. > :06:06.heading to and the talk of civil war and separate parties? You can't have

:06:07. > :06:12.that. We must do everything to stop it. Is that a note to being honest

:06:13. > :06:20.broker? You can take on a thing from that. I am just amazed to hear it.

:06:21. > :06:24.It wouldn't just be one person, it would have to be a group of people

:06:25. > :06:28.are thinking about how you deal with the real problems. The MPs have

:06:29. > :06:32.concerns about selections which they have been that and with. There is

:06:33. > :06:36.concern about what the negotiating position will be an about the

:06:37. > :06:42.leadership. When I listen to the programmes again, Neil Kinnock and

:06:43. > :06:46.others, whether you can go ahead without an election. I am a believer

:06:47. > :06:51.and I fought hard for one member, one vote to involve the ordinary

:06:52. > :06:54.members. That is why I persuaded people to vote for Jeremy, let the

:06:55. > :06:59.party make the decision. I didn't vote for him. I didn't think he was

:07:00. > :07:06.the leader I wanted. But the party did speak. What has changed now is

:07:07. > :07:10.one member, one vote. The Parliamentary party has its

:07:11. > :07:15.position. It used to originally elect the leader. We changed that

:07:16. > :07:20.and went out to the members. Surely if you want an election, use the

:07:21. > :07:26.proper procedure, get the names of the MPs for the nominations and have

:07:27. > :07:30.an election. I hope we don't. I hope Angela and Owen Smith don't go into

:07:31. > :07:38.an election, because that will take the fight closer to civil war. If Mr

:07:39. > :07:42.Corbyn is challenged, is it your view that as the incumbent, as the

:07:43. > :07:47.existing leader of the Labour Party, he has a right to be on the ballot

:07:48. > :07:52.paper automatically? I hear what the lawyers they about that. I say this.

:07:53. > :07:56.If you want to challenge the leader of the Labour Party, then you get

:07:57. > :08:04.the names of the MPs and a nomination list and have a vote. But

:08:05. > :08:12.since he is the incumbent, and if he is being challenged rather than

:08:13. > :08:19.stepping down, whatever the lawyers say, would he not have a right to be

:08:20. > :08:24.on the ballot paper? I believe if he can get sufficient names from the

:08:25. > :08:28.PLP, which is the rule under our situation, then he is entitled to be

:08:29. > :08:34.on it. The argument as to whether because he was the leader before is

:08:35. > :08:38.a legal one, personally, if you are going to have an election, and I

:08:39. > :08:45.hope we don't, that is the only way to sort it out. Otherwise you have a

:08:46. > :08:53.divided party. So he would still need to get the names as well. Those

:08:54. > :08:57.are the rules we have. But why haven't the names being put up

:08:58. > :08:59.before now? On this occasion, they hoped they could shake him down.

:09:00. > :09:05.They hoped he would resign voluntarily. I think many MPs were

:09:06. > :09:10.convinced that was the road forward. Well, it hasn't turned out that way

:09:11. > :09:14.and the man intends to stand in the election. In my view, follow the

:09:15. > :09:19.processes of the party and get the names of supporters to enter the

:09:20. > :09:23.list. If he is not challenged and remains as leader of the Labour

:09:24. > :09:31.Party, what evidence is there that he will get better at the job? Well,

:09:32. > :09:37.I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of these reasons. From when he started

:09:38. > :09:42.to now, he has been improving. But I do accept that a lot of people are

:09:43. > :09:47.not convinced. He doesn't have the pension you sometimes need. I scream

:09:48. > :09:51.and shout, as you know, from time to time. They don't doubt that he

:09:52. > :09:54.believes what he is saying, but a leader has to reach across the

:09:55. > :09:59.party. I don't think Jeremy has done that. There are people in the party

:10:00. > :10:04.who have declared war on him from the first day of his election, let's

:10:05. > :10:09.be honest. He has got to improve. The party has to recognise the road

:10:10. > :10:14.it has embarked upon, or the PLP. And we need to prevent civil war. It

:10:15. > :10:20.would be disastrous for us. I sat in the Labour Party when it was the SDP

:10:21. > :10:24.and they put us out for 18 years. Is that what we want again? Is that our

:10:25. > :10:30.answer to the people screaming out to tackle this Tory government?

:10:31. > :10:35.Follow the constitution. Have an election if you have to, although I

:10:36. > :10:41.hope we don't have to. I hope Angela and Owen will not stand. I tried to

:10:42. > :10:45.advise a week ago to take more time to think about it. I think the MPs

:10:46. > :10:50.should go away and think about it over the holiday and come back and

:10:51. > :10:56.remember that the party once asked to resent a good case against this

:10:57. > :11:01.Tory government, or people will suffer. We cannot stand on the side,

:11:02. > :11:08.wringing our hands. Play it together. I understand that rallying

:11:09. > :11:15.call, but if there isn't an election or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains

:11:16. > :11:19.as leader, surely the situation is a leader who doesn't have the

:11:20. > :11:22.confidence of 80% of the parliamentary party. That is not

:11:23. > :11:28.sustainable. I understand that and it is a proper question. But

:11:29. > :11:41.listening to all the arguments over the last few weeks and in the PLP, I

:11:42. > :11:44.wonder if every MP would feel the same if we embarked upon a new

:11:45. > :11:48.party, isolating itself from the membership. If they do that, I

:11:49. > :11:56.wonder if you would keep the same vote. MPs have to look at themselves

:11:57. > :11:59.and say, let us get behind the guy or get rid of him, but get rid of

:12:00. > :12:03.him in the proper way. Most thought he would resign. It hasn't happened,

:12:04. > :12:08.so let's think through the consequences and avoid that civil

:12:09. > :12:13.war and deserting our own people in fighting against Tories. You wrote

:12:14. > :12:17.this morning that the last time Labour split, the gang of four in

:12:18. > :12:22.the 1980s, you ended up in opposition for 18 years. When you

:12:23. > :12:28.look at the situation at the moment, it is possible that split or

:12:29. > :12:37.un-split, if things continue the way they do, you would be in opposition

:12:38. > :12:40.for 18 years. That is a possibility. There are misconceptions people had.

:12:41. > :12:47.Many in the PLP assumed this man should go. OK, they expressed their

:12:48. > :12:52.opinion. But they thought he would just go quietly. That hasn't

:12:53. > :12:56.happened. If you go along this road and have another election, we are

:12:57. > :13:01.embarking upon those who are already talking about a separate PLP party,

:13:02. > :13:05.separated from the members. Blimey, think twice before you go down that

:13:06. > :13:09.road. We now it will be four years before the next election. Let's have

:13:10. > :13:18.more common sense. Remember, it's a whole party. One final question, not

:13:19. > :13:21.wishing to make you more gloomy. Isn't there a chance of things

:13:22. > :13:26.getting worse before they get better? We have the Chilcot report

:13:27. > :13:31.coming on Wednesday and we are being told that a number of leading Labour

:13:32. > :13:35.people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn himself, will brand Tony Blair is a

:13:36. > :13:43.war criminal. That can only make things worse, can't it? I agree. It

:13:44. > :13:51.will make it worse, whatever they say. That is more the reason why

:13:52. > :13:56.bitter division in the PLP can only be made worse by angry statements

:13:57. > :14:03.about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq. Most people now recognise that, and

:14:04. > :14:08.a terrible price was paid. I cannot absolve myself from that. I sat in

:14:09. > :14:12.that cabinet. We can have a proper debate, but keep it less personal.

:14:13. > :14:16.Let's learn the lessons and avoid such a terrible situation, although

:14:17. > :14:21.frankly, we have been in other wars since then with the same feeling

:14:22. > :14:25.prevailing. John Prescott, thank you for being with us today.

:14:26. > :14:32.Helen, what is happening? The one thing I was missing there is a plan

:14:33. > :14:36.for what happens next. It is unlikely that people who have exited

:14:37. > :14:40.the Shadow Cabinet are going to go back into it. So if you are a Jeremy

:14:41. > :14:45.Corbyn supporter, what do you want? If you accept that there is no way,

:14:46. > :14:49.and that is what the negotiations are about, could you have an

:14:50. > :14:52.automatic place on the next ballot or would you have an agreement that

:14:53. > :14:58.someone like Clive Lewis would get onto next ballot? That would require

:14:59. > :15:02.Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so if Corbyn stands again, it looks

:15:03. > :15:04.like he would win again with the members and there would be such a

:15:05. > :15:10.loss of hatred that the idea of anyone who ran against him that it

:15:11. > :15:13.would splinter the party. Chris Bryant was saying he didn't think it

:15:14. > :15:17.was a shoe in order that he would necessarily win with the members

:15:18. > :15:22.again. That is because there is polling that shows that support for

:15:23. > :15:25.Corbyn has slid backward. The polls put him against the other likely

:15:26. > :15:30.challengers and he beat all of them, but there was a sense in the vote

:15:31. > :15:34.that there were some who really wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were

:15:35. > :15:38.some who just didn't like the others and wanted something different. If

:15:39. > :15:41.there were a plausible person who was not Corbyn, they might go for

:15:42. > :15:46.that person. It was interesting that Don Prescott said that even if you

:15:47. > :15:51.are the incumbent -- John Prescott said that even if you are the income

:15:52. > :15:57.-- incumbent, you need the requisite number of MPs. That is hugely

:15:58. > :16:02.debated at the moment. It might go to the courts. That is all Labour

:16:03. > :16:07.bid now, for the Labour to be involved. They are between a rock

:16:08. > :16:10.and a hard place. Whether it is Clive Lewis or John Donald rather

:16:11. > :16:15.than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are

:16:16. > :16:20.now so far away from each other that the rubber band of the Labour Party

:16:21. > :16:23.has broken. We are now looking at two political parties eventually. It

:16:24. > :16:28.may take three months or three years, but I cannot see how those

:16:29. > :16:33.two wings can reconcile themselves. If Tom is right, the battle is who

:16:34. > :16:39.takes possession of the Labour brand. As a brand, it is more

:16:40. > :16:45.powerful than the conservative brand in some ways. And who has that brand

:16:46. > :16:50.automatically get at least 20% of the votes. It comes with the name.

:16:51. > :16:55.It does, but what is the brand? That is what goes to the heart of what

:16:56. > :16:59.this debate is about. There are a couple of other points. All credit

:17:00. > :17:02.to John Prescott for at least acknowledging that if this goes on,

:17:03. > :17:08.Labour could be out for another 18 years. But what about these 40 MPs

:17:09. > :17:13.who are propping up Corbyn at the moment? I don't think enough

:17:14. > :17:18.scrutiny is being given to them. At the end of the day, if they

:17:19. > :17:25.haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have nobody left. I can't understand why

:17:26. > :17:32.very experienced senior figures like Andy Burnham are still helping him.

:17:33. > :17:36.That was the point Chris Bryant was making. Some of them apparently

:17:37. > :17:39.tried very hard to resign last week or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if

:17:40. > :17:45.he didn't go, but they are now incapable of resigning cos he will

:17:46. > :17:51.not see them. There is a parallel to Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's

:17:52. > :17:56.own article 50. As soon he stands down, he loses a lot of his

:17:57. > :18:02.bargaining ability. But what is the mood on the left of the Labour

:18:03. > :18:08.Party? Is it to stick it out with Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept

:18:09. > :18:15.that that is not working and get someone else from a more credible

:18:16. > :18:20.left-wing leader into place? My sense is that it is fracturing. You

:18:21. > :18:24.will end up with a rump of people who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they

:18:25. > :18:27.don't care about anything else. They joined to vote for him and they will

:18:28. > :18:34.leave the party when he goes. But there is a bigger group of people

:18:35. > :18:39.who want somebody who they feel is authentically left wing, but they

:18:40. > :18:46.are not wedded to it being Corbyn. That is what is changing. There has

:18:47. > :18:50.been bleeding of support from Corbyn himself. But also, the extent to

:18:51. > :19:00.which Corbyn is being propped up by a few figures, I am hearing that he

:19:01. > :19:14.wants to go but is being forced to stay. Do we know if that is true?

:19:15. > :19:18.People around him are saying, if you go, Alec experiment about this part

:19:19. > :19:25.of the party being in charge will be destroyed. Do you agree with that? I

:19:26. > :19:35.wonder. If you are the leader of a political party and you want to go,

:19:36. > :19:42.you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn turns up at a rally in Parliamentary

:19:43. > :19:45.'s -- Parliament Square with thousands screaming for him, it

:19:46. > :19:50.makes him feel good and gives him hope. It makes him think that, I

:19:51. > :19:55.know it looks bad, but there are still people who love me. There is

:19:56. > :19:59.also a genuine principle thing, which is that he was elected by

:20:00. > :20:05.people who were not represent by the Labour Party as it was, and he feels

:20:06. > :20:08.a sense of responsibility to them. And with Chilcot coming out on

:20:09. > :20:14.Wednesday morning, it can only make it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot

:20:15. > :20:17.of speculation at Westminster that Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on

:20:18. > :20:21.until then so that he can stand up in the House of Commons and say that

:20:22. > :20:27.Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Possibly, he wants his big

:20:28. > :20:35.moment and will disappear after that. Or he may get reinvigorated by

:20:36. > :20:42.it. This is fascinating. All those people who are saying Jeremy should

:20:43. > :20:50.go, he was the position to Tony Blair within his own party -- he was

:20:51. > :20:54.the opposition. What are we going to learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair

:20:55. > :20:58.got it wrong? They're zealots on both sides who will want to fight

:20:59. > :21:02.this out. Whether we learn anything or not is another matter. I suggest

:21:03. > :21:12.it is fuel on the Labour fire. But it doesn't change the positions we

:21:13. > :21:15.know will be confirmed. But if the leader of the Labour opposition

:21:16. > :21:19.calls on a former neighbour Prime Minister to be treated as a war

:21:20. > :21:26.criminal, that is history in anybody's books. That is one thing

:21:27. > :21:31.keeping the Labour Party avoided, the mistakes over Iraq. People are

:21:32. > :21:32.in one camp or the other. We shall leave it there.

:21:33. > :21:37.The Daily Politics is on all next week on BBC Two.

:21:38. > :21:42.I'm back here next Sunday at 11am on BBC One.

:21:43. > :21:51.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.