:00:41. > :00:43.Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:48.After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins
:00:49. > :00:49.with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution,
:00:50. > :00:52.including the death penalty for rebels.
:00:53. > :00:54.What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future,
:00:55. > :01:02.Nato and the fight against Islamic State?
:01:03. > :01:07.I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get
:01:08. > :01:10.a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident
:01:11. > :01:12.that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us
:01:13. > :01:14.that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair
:01:15. > :01:17.and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer"
:01:18. > :01:19.but Theresa May's promised Later in the programme, the cold
:01:20. > :01:31.and take us out of the EU - Later in the programme, the cold
:01:32. > :01:33.shoulder. Carwyn Jones is worried well to being ignored by Brussels
:01:34. > :01:43.after Brexit. Since we broadcast last week,
:01:44. > :01:47.a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice
:01:48. > :01:52.and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now
:01:53. > :01:54.commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change
:01:55. > :02:01.here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best
:02:02. > :02:04.and the brightest political panel in the business -
:02:05. > :02:06.Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army
:02:07. > :02:12.coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved
:02:13. > :02:14.ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from
:02:15. > :02:24.God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now
:02:25. > :02:27.widely anticipated, Let's get the latest
:02:28. > :02:47.from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be
:02:48. > :02:52.pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already
:02:53. > :02:57.taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including
:02:58. > :03:03.high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from
:03:04. > :03:09.their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep
:03:10. > :03:15.Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would
:03:16. > :03:19.be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment.
:03:20. > :03:26.Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government
:03:27. > :03:31.thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this
:03:32. > :03:37.attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a
:03:38. > :03:41.cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms
:03:42. > :03:54.with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah
:03:55. > :04:00.Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no
:04:01. > :04:07.part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with
:04:08. > :04:09.hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last
:04:10. > :04:14.night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters
:04:15. > :04:18.of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of
:04:19. > :04:23.the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President
:04:24. > :04:27.Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because
:04:28. > :04:33.they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup
:04:34. > :04:38.attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan,
:04:39. > :04:41.it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take
:04:42. > :04:45.over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already
:04:46. > :04:54.pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of
:04:55. > :05:03.a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey
:05:04. > :05:08.and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with
:05:09. > :05:13.the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's
:05:14. > :05:18.tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret
:05:19. > :05:21.that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in
:05:22. > :05:26.Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no
:05:27. > :05:31.other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed
:05:32. > :05:37.to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this
:05:38. > :05:41.could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country
:05:42. > :05:47.into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr
:05:48. > :05:52.Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant
:05:53. > :05:55.and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the
:05:56. > :05:59.Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the
:06:00. > :06:07.opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand
:06:08. > :06:11.against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that
:06:12. > :06:17.this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering
:06:18. > :06:23.that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the
:06:24. > :06:28.government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of
:06:29. > :06:32.trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very
:06:33. > :06:33.much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs
:06:34. > :06:41.analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened
:06:42. > :06:45.here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist
:06:46. > :06:55.leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning
:06:56. > :07:00.Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a
:07:01. > :07:03.gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit
:07:04. > :07:07.of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not
:07:08. > :07:14.have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made
:07:15. > :07:17.two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the
:07:18. > :07:24.first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to
:07:25. > :07:31.coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the
:07:32. > :07:35.president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television,
:07:36. > :07:39.and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you
:07:40. > :07:46.would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was
:07:47. > :07:52.CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr
:07:53. > :07:58.Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and --
:07:59. > :08:02.hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the
:08:03. > :08:06.streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the
:08:07. > :08:11.call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and
:08:12. > :08:14.it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber
:08:15. > :08:23.the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a
:08:24. > :08:30.serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something
:08:31. > :08:33.bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge
:08:34. > :08:39.obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the
:08:40. > :08:44.fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one
:08:45. > :08:50.with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member.
:08:51. > :08:55.It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent
:08:56. > :08:58.said, this is a parliamentary republic, where traditionally the
:08:59. > :09:03.president is simply a figurehead but because he is so dominant and has
:09:04. > :09:08.total control of the HK party, all he had to do was switch from one job
:09:09. > :09:14.to the next. And all the power went with him because of the atmosphere
:09:15. > :09:19.at not because of the law. But he tried last year to move the powers
:09:20. > :09:23.legally into his office. He is closing down the media, he is now
:09:24. > :09:33.getting rid of the remnants in the Army that art not with him, and he
:09:34. > :09:42.has the support of the mosques and parliament. It is becoming a
:09:43. > :09:50.democratic dictatorship, a phrase I came up with for the loss of itch in
:09:51. > :09:54.Serbia, you bring two new radio stations out that broadcast so
:09:55. > :10:01.loudly that free speech is still allowed, but it cannot be heard.
:10:02. > :10:08.Remember the Civil War was the Kurds? That will just be utterly
:10:09. > :10:16.ruthless. This is a hugely historic event in Turkey's history because
:10:17. > :10:20.previous army coups have won and he will now take out the army as an
:10:21. > :10:25.independent force and it will become much more authoritarian, perhaps
:10:26. > :10:28.even autocratic. Where does this leave Western relations with Turkey?
:10:29. > :10:33.I think we can agree that it is not going to join the European Union any
:10:34. > :10:37.time soon so we can scotch that one. I think the ultimate dilemma must be
:10:38. > :10:41.for Nato. It is a security organisation but it is also an
:10:42. > :10:44.organisation defined by certain values and practices and if
:10:45. > :10:48.President Erdogan responds to the coup attempt by tightening freedoms
:10:49. > :10:52.further, by intervening against the judiciary and the Armed Forces
:10:53. > :10:56.further, then there must be a dilemma at some stage for Nato. I
:10:57. > :11:03.thought it might have been telling that three or four hours, I don't
:11:04. > :11:08.know if Tim agrees, for the US at least, if not Nato, to say anything
:11:09. > :11:11.about the coup, when they did they did not mention President Erdogan by
:11:12. > :11:16.name. I don't know if that suggests they know what side there bread is
:11:17. > :11:20.buttered on and they were waiting to see if the coup would succeed. But
:11:21. > :11:26.it is a huge event for the West and Turkey. The state was founded on
:11:27. > :11:29.secular ideals. The Armed Forces have always been seen as an
:11:30. > :11:33.invigilator of government. I am right in saying that the Turkish
:11:34. > :11:36.president has never been commander-in-chief, officially, in
:11:37. > :11:41.the way that a US president would be. Or a French president. Many
:11:42. > :11:45.people think that what he wants to do is create an executive style
:11:46. > :11:48.French presidency. You would still have a parliament and a Prime
:11:49. > :11:51.Minister but it would be the president that matters, rather than
:11:52. > :11:59.just being head of state. Turkey has been so pivotal, first of all in
:12:00. > :12:02.dealing with the migrant crisis in the eastern Mediterranean, with the
:12:03. > :12:12.situation in Syria, and Islamic State, and in the region as a
:12:13. > :12:16.regional superpower that balances Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't
:12:17. > :12:21.know where this is going to lead now. And has been talk for a long
:12:22. > :12:24.time about how it is massively in the interest of the West to have a
:12:25. > :12:30.stable Turkey. It has not been stable for some time and it will not
:12:31. > :12:36.be, even if this coup was a somewhat silly, ill thought through coup, it
:12:37. > :12:40.is clearly destabilising and will have consequences for a long time to
:12:41. > :12:43.come. I would be interesting to -- I would be interested to hear from Tim
:12:44. > :12:48.whether the EU has some leveraged because Turkey's desire to join it.
:12:49. > :12:53.That dynamic, although clearly not the agenda in spite of the farcical
:12:54. > :12:58.things said during the referendum campaign, that gives the EU some
:12:59. > :13:06.leveraged in reshaping what happens in Turkey. You wonder if that is
:13:07. > :13:09.even on his mind. It will not be. But the president has so many
:13:10. > :13:13.domestic fish to fry, and that might not be a very good metaphor given
:13:14. > :13:16.what he is about to do. If he is about to reintroduce the death
:13:17. > :13:22.penalty, it becomes very difficult to talk about Turkey being part of
:13:23. > :13:25.the EU. What do our diplomats do? It is in our interest to encourage the
:13:26. > :13:31.dreamer but it does not look compatible with the way that things
:13:32. > :13:38.are being carried out. Remarkably, these events in Gneiss had been
:13:39. > :13:42.overshadowed by Turkey and yet it only happened on Thursday night and
:13:43. > :13:46.this is Sunday morning. I suggest that the reaction in France to Nice
:13:47. > :13:54.is going to be very different. Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there
:13:55. > :13:57.was great solidarity and it brought France together. I think this is
:13:58. > :14:01.different because people have had enough and it is different because
:14:02. > :14:06.there are clear security questions. No barrier on the promenade. We are
:14:07. > :14:09.told that there was a barrier when the military parades took place but
:14:10. > :14:15.it was removed after words, and already the politicians are ganging
:14:16. > :14:19.up on the government and this is becoming a major pre-election issue.
:14:20. > :14:21.That's right. The election is next year and Marine Le Pen is
:14:22. > :14:27.positioning herself very strongly with the National Front. There is a
:14:28. > :14:31.public divided on how to approach it and even if this is not Islamic
:14:32. > :14:35.State, and I am not convinced that it is, it happens in the context of
:14:36. > :14:41.Islamic State and of mass slaughter in the name of something. It is
:14:42. > :14:46.another chip away at our freedoms. And that is, in itself, a success.
:14:47. > :14:51.They are going to continue. I believe the rise of the right is far
:14:52. > :14:58.from Peking. And it plays absolutely into next year's presidential
:14:59. > :15:02.election. Going back from the presidential election, that all
:15:03. > :15:06.comes into what the EU is going to look like. We are in a state of
:15:07. > :15:10.flux. You are old enough, forgive me, Andrew, to know that everybody
:15:11. > :15:14.always says it has never been as bad as now and it is always untrue. But
:15:15. > :15:16.it is actually more corrugated than I have ever known it. And you may
:15:17. > :15:21.agree. I do agree. The Conservatives completed
:15:22. > :15:22.their leadership contest in a matter of days,
:15:23. > :15:25.Labour's has barely begun. There are now two candidates
:15:26. > :15:27.standing against Jeremy Corbyn - Angela Eagle and Owen Smith -
:15:28. > :15:30.but the Labour Leader has told us that the rules which exclude
:15:31. > :15:32.recently signed up members from voting in the contest
:15:33. > :15:35.are unfair and he wants the party's national executive
:15:36. > :15:37.to change them. Adam Fleming went for a walk
:15:38. > :15:44.in the park with Mr Corbyn. This is the lake that was built
:15:45. > :15:47.here in the 19th century, rather strange lake on the top
:15:48. > :15:50.of the hill. I went for a stroll
:15:51. > :15:55.round the Labour leader's favourite local beauty spot -
:15:56. > :16:01.Finsbury Park in north London. Do you have time to take a casual
:16:02. > :16:04.stroll with a journalist Yes, because doing things
:16:05. > :16:08.in a relaxed way is important, and doing other things is important,
:16:09. > :16:11.so going to a park, being in your However busy I am, my
:16:12. > :16:24.allotment is tended. It's in good order, we had a good
:16:25. > :16:27.crop of broad beans and we ate A slightly less relaxing
:16:28. > :16:32.part of his week. At a meeting of Labour's national
:16:33. > :16:34.executive on Tuesday, Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic
:16:35. > :16:37.place in the leadership election. But he's not happy with new rules
:16:38. > :16:40.that say people who joined the party There's going to be some quite
:16:41. > :16:46.intense discussions over the next few days, I suspect,
:16:47. > :16:49.and I hope our party officials and National Executive will see
:16:50. > :16:53.sense on this and recognise that those people who have freely
:16:54. > :16:57.given their time and money to join the Labour Party should be welcomed
:16:58. > :17:00.in and given the opportunity to take part in this crucial debate,
:17:01. > :17:03.whichever way they decide to vote. I'm hoping there will be
:17:04. > :17:10.an understanding that it is simply not very fair to say to people that
:17:11. > :17:13.joined the party in the last six months, "sorry, your participation
:17:14. > :17:17.is no longer welcome because we are having
:17:18. > :17:22.a leadership contest." In the next few days,
:17:23. > :17:24.various Labour factions will be racing to sign people up
:17:25. > :17:26.as registered supporters, It costs ?25, not ?3
:17:27. > :17:35.like in the last contest. For people who can't afford the 25
:17:36. > :17:38.quid, what would you suggest If they can't afford the ?25,
:17:39. > :17:44.what they do? It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite
:17:45. > :17:48.high and not really reasonable. A lot of people have said to me,
:17:49. > :17:52.people stop me in the street saying, "I would love to vote in this
:17:53. > :17:57.election but I can't afford ?25." He is also disappointed that
:17:58. > :18:00.virtually all local party meetings have been suspended over
:18:01. > :18:05.fears of intimidation. I haven't stopped party meetings
:18:06. > :18:07.taking place and I actually I think party meetings
:18:08. > :18:12.should take place. Intimidation of any sort by anybody
:18:13. > :18:18.is absolutely wrong, but to cancel meetings
:18:19. > :18:21.because of the perception that intimidation might take place
:18:22. > :18:24.I think is a big mistake. The issues appear to be that
:18:25. > :18:28.where meetings have taken place, far more people have attended
:18:29. > :18:31.than were expected and so there has been issues about how people
:18:32. > :18:33.can get in the room, whereas there's a fairly
:18:34. > :18:35.simple answer to that - Talking of meetings,
:18:36. > :18:42.who was he with when Theresa May was taking over as Prime Minister
:18:43. > :18:47.earlier this week? I was with an all-party group,
:18:48. > :18:49.including Conservatives, talking to two of the Miami five
:18:50. > :18:52.who had been in prison in Miami and were released
:18:53. > :18:55.by the court decisions of USA and the new rapprochement with Cuba
:18:56. > :18:57.and actually welcoming the fact there had been an agreement
:18:58. > :19:04.reached in Cuba. I was actually with Conservatives
:19:05. > :19:09.and Labour people. I was there for about 20 minutes,
:19:10. > :19:12.then I went back to my office And so you felt that was a good use
:19:13. > :19:17.of your time at that point when the country was transitioning
:19:18. > :19:20.from one Prime Minister to another? Informing yourself by listening
:19:21. > :19:24.to people from all kinds of walks This morning I was on the phone
:19:25. > :19:30.to friends in Istanbul and Ankara And so when an issue happens
:19:31. > :19:38.anywhere in the world, obviously I read all the briefings
:19:39. > :19:40.that I've been given, obviously I follow the news
:19:41. > :19:43.and information, but also I quite often know people in different
:19:44. > :19:46.places around the world so I call Can I get a hug
:19:47. > :19:51.for that? He also seems to know a lot
:19:52. > :20:00.of people in this park. What do you think about
:20:01. > :20:02.Angela Eagle and Owen Smith I have been trying to unregister
:20:03. > :20:16.from the Green Party so that I can register with the Labour Party
:20:17. > :20:19.so that I can support you. We were walking round
:20:20. > :20:23.with Jeremy Corbyn, What did you shout
:20:24. > :20:27.out when you saw him? I don't know what I said,
:20:28. > :20:30.something awful like... Something like "you've
:20:31. > :20:35.ruined the Labour Party". Something like, "step aside and stop
:20:36. > :20:38.ruining the Labour Party," I guess. And I couldn't let Jeremy go
:20:39. > :20:43.without introducing him to the craze sweeping the nation,
:20:44. > :20:46.Pokemon Go. He didn't seem that bothered
:20:47. > :20:49.but then he's playing a much bigger game, trying to hold onto his job,
:20:50. > :20:52.and that's no walk in the park. Our work this morning has not
:20:53. > :20:58.been in vain. And a longer version of that
:20:59. > :21:00.interview with Jeremy Corbyn We're joined now from Salford
:21:01. > :21:04.though by the Shadow Education Secretary,
:21:05. > :21:16.Angela Rayner. Welcome to the programme. Jeremy
:21:17. > :21:22.Corbyn wants to allow people who joined in the last six months of
:21:23. > :21:26.your party to vote, he thinks the ?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just
:21:27. > :21:31.typical of the chaos Labour is now in that you are holding a leadership
:21:32. > :21:36.contest before you have agreed rules? Good morning, I think it's
:21:37. > :21:40.important we recognise the Labour Party is transformed with now over
:21:41. > :21:45.half a million members joined, which is fantastic. We are the largest
:21:46. > :21:51.democratic social party across Europe. For me it is about
:21:52. > :21:55.democracy. I asked about the rules, should you be having a contest
:21:56. > :22:00.before you have agreed rules? The rules were decided at the NEC
:22:01. > :22:06.meeting which lasted seven hours, quite a lengthy marathon... You want
:22:07. > :22:12.to change them? People need to reflect upon the current situation
:22:13. > :22:16.and there has been outrage. 130,000 people have joined since the
:22:17. > :22:22.referendum, and we have got to give them the opportunity to have their
:22:23. > :22:28.voice heard. Have these 130,000 that joined after the referendum been
:22:29. > :22:33.properly vetted? That is a situation that the NEC and our party has got
:22:34. > :22:37.to approve and go through. We did it last time, we had a huge number of
:22:38. > :22:47.people join our party recently. Have that number been vetted or not? You
:22:48. > :22:52.have got to allow democracy. What we do is we ensure we get more people,
:22:53. > :22:57.more staff, more ability to deal with that issue because democracy is
:22:58. > :23:01.important, it is enshrined. Hold on, you are starting the leadership
:23:02. > :23:06.campaign and you still haven't vetted those who may be allowed to
:23:07. > :23:10.vote, that's what I mean by chaos, if not fast. I don't think it's
:23:11. > :23:18.chaotic to have over half a million people join our party and want to
:23:19. > :23:21.have a say, it is a positive step. It is if you cannot vet them come
:23:22. > :23:23.you don't know if they are members of the Socialist workers party, the
:23:24. > :23:31.Greens, the Communists, the National front, the Conservatives. You have
:23:32. > :23:37.no idea. We have 130,000 people who have joined in the last three weeks,
:23:38. > :23:40.which the Conservative Party have around 150,000 members per se. We
:23:41. > :23:46.have over half a million members so we are doing a great job. The
:23:47. > :23:49.Trotskyists and other groups you are suggesting may be trying to join our
:23:50. > :23:54.party, they are not in the great numbers we see at the moment. It is
:23:55. > :24:00.important to give people a say about the future of our country and party.
:24:01. > :24:03.I love democracy. Will you definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn
:24:04. > :24:10.this time because you didn't last time. No, I supported Andy Burnham
:24:11. > :24:14.last time, but I recognise Jeremy Corbyn had a significant mandate to
:24:15. > :24:19.lead our party. I don't think it's time to have a leadership contest. I
:24:20. > :24:23.will not be nominating another candidate, I will be recognising our
:24:24. > :24:33.democratically elected leader. I asked who you will be voting for. I
:24:34. > :24:42.will be supporting -- our democratically elected leader. Can
:24:43. > :24:48.you say the words, I will vote for Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear
:24:49. > :24:56.what my position is, and that's about democracy and our members
:24:57. > :25:00.making... Are you or aren't you? I have told you I will be supporting
:25:01. > :25:04.our democratically elected leader of our party. I want to hold the
:25:05. > :25:12.Government to account, we have a bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm
:25:13. > :25:17.puzzled, are you voting for Mr Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us
:25:18. > :25:22.holding this Government to account. I have tried to answer your question
:25:23. > :25:27.but you don't want to listen to my answer. Could you name the person
:25:28. > :25:31.you will be voting for in this election? I will be listening to our
:25:32. > :25:35.membership and in the meantime holding the Government to account
:25:36. > :25:42.and supporting our democratically elected leader of our party, which
:25:43. > :25:49.is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58%
:25:50. > :25:53.to 19, on who would make the better Prime Minister. It shows 40% of
:25:54. > :25:58.Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister.
:25:59. > :26:05.Why are you backing, if you are, I'm still not clear, why are you backing
:26:06. > :26:10.a loser? Our party is seen as quite divided and divided parties never
:26:11. > :26:13.win elections. We don't disagree on policy points, we have to get our
:26:14. > :26:17.policy points across to the electorate and then they will
:26:18. > :26:22.decide. Theresa May has the challenge of bringing her
:26:23. > :26:25.Conservative Party together. There was no competition, no democracy
:26:26. > :26:29.within the Conservative Party in terms of who they wanted as leader.
:26:30. > :26:33.She has a job to do because the country has never been more divided
:26:34. > :26:42.than it is now and that's directly as a result of the Conservatives.
:26:43. > :26:48.You all seem to have a job to do. Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour
:26:49. > :26:52.Party now the nasty party? No, Theresa May had it right, the
:26:53. > :26:57.Conservatives continue to be so. They are cutting education funding
:26:58. > :27:02.by up to 8% in this Parliament, they want to prioritise the NHS and have
:27:03. > :27:07.already been creeping that in. They are not on the side of ordinary
:27:08. > :27:11.people in this country. Theresa May has said she wants the Conservatives
:27:12. > :27:15.to be a party for everybody and working people across the country.
:27:16. > :27:22.Now her words have to be matched by actions. Let me ask you this about
:27:23. > :27:28.Labour. Meetings of constituency Labour parties have been suspended
:27:29. > :27:32.from fear of intimidation. There are death threats and violence, a brick
:27:33. > :27:38.thrown through the window of the office block where Angela Eagle's
:27:39. > :27:44.constituency is housed. Police have had to investigate. I ask again, is
:27:45. > :27:49.it not Labour that is the nasty party? I think any act of abuse and
:27:50. > :27:51.intimidation is disgusting in politics and many politicians from
:27:52. > :27:56.all sides of the house have had death threats and threats of
:27:57. > :27:59.violence, and that has got to be stamped out of a modern democracy.
:28:00. > :28:06.Why is it in the Labour Party this is happening? It happens across the
:28:07. > :28:10.spectrum in politics and it is disgusting. But it cannot stop
:28:11. > :28:14.democracy either, we have got to continue to uphold and enshrined our
:28:15. > :28:18.democracy in everything we do because it is important. It means a
:28:19. > :28:21.lot to a lot of people but you cannot win on democracy by abusing,
:28:22. > :28:25.threatening and intimidating the other side of the argument. You have
:28:26. > :28:32.got to have a constructive debate and people have got to have their
:28:33. > :28:34.democratic right to vote. Thanks for being with us this morning.
:28:35. > :28:37.Now, despite signing up to David Cameron's Remain strategy,
:28:38. > :28:39.our new Prime Minister has put navigating the UK's departure
:28:40. > :28:41.from the EU and retaining the union at the centre
:28:42. > :28:45.We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general
:28:46. > :28:48.The appointment of three key Cabinet positions to Brexiteers - Boris
:28:49. > :28:50.Johnson, David Davis, and Liam Fox - reflects this.
:28:51. > :28:52.A few days before his appointment, the Brexit Secretary set
:28:53. > :28:57.out how he'd proceed with separation from the EU.
:28:58. > :28:59.He said triggering new trade talks were a
:29:00. > :29:01.priority and wanted the UK to negotiate free-trade deals with
:29:02. > :29:09.Mr Davis believes the UK should not budge on control of our borders, but
:29:10. > :29:12.the tariff-free access to the EU single market is still his preferred
:29:13. > :29:18.The Brexit Secretary acknowledged that talks with the
:29:19. > :29:20.Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland governments
:29:21. > :29:25.And Theresa May made the first step on Thursday, telling
:29:26. > :29:27.Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh that she is willing to listen
:29:28. > :29:29.to options on Scotland's future relationship
:29:30. > :29:35.Mrs May said Britain would not rush into
:29:36. > :29:37.Brexit negotiations and would need some time to prepare.
:29:38. > :29:39.However, Mr Davis said Article 50 should be
:29:40. > :29:48.and mean Britain would be out of the EU by January
:29:49. > :29:55.We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general
:29:56. > :29:57.Dominic Grieve, who campaigned for Remain, and the Labour MP
:29:58. > :30:00.who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stewart.
:30:01. > :30:10.We are joined by Dominic Grieve and the chairman of the boat Leave
:30:11. > :30:19.campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I
:30:20. > :30:22.think she has. I think it was important that you made clear that
:30:23. > :30:29.Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make a clear that there was no second
:30:30. > :30:33.referendum in the offering. That required certainty for the country.
:30:34. > :30:38.Are you satisfied with that? I am completely satisfied with her
:30:39. > :30:41.approach, yes. It is clear that the vote, as expressed in the
:30:42. > :30:45.referendum, has to be respected. We have to take forward a programme for
:30:46. > :30:50.removing the United Kingdom from the EU. Really that is going to be an
:30:51. > :30:54.immensely comported process and it also carries with it economic risks,
:30:55. > :31:00.certainly in the short to medium term. I am also open-minded as to
:31:01. > :31:04.how one best does that. I think we're going to have to respond to
:31:05. > :31:08.events as well as trying to shape them. We have seen a blueprint
:31:09. > :31:16.published by my friend and colleague, David Davis, about
:31:17. > :31:20.Britain's outside the EU. I expect that 99.9% of conservatives would
:31:21. > :31:24.subscribe to that but getting to it is more congregated. We need to
:31:25. > :31:31.unpick this bit by bit. When do we trigger article 50? You need to go
:31:32. > :31:37.in reverse, like a reverse accession process. The most important thing is
:31:38. > :31:43.trade negotiations. As I understand that you cannot have a bilateral
:31:44. > :31:50.agreement unless you have notified Article 50. But you must have some
:31:51. > :31:54.idea of the time? The sooner the better. When do you think we should
:31:55. > :31:59.trigger article 50. I think we should trigger at when there is some
:32:00. > :32:03.clarity as to what the scope of the negotiations that will follow will
:32:04. > :32:08.be. This is the first big hurdle. Clearly if our European partners do
:32:09. > :32:13.not want to negotiate with us at all, even informally, prior to
:32:14. > :32:15.triggering Article 50, that might presents difficulties but from the
:32:16. > :32:20.point of view of the Prime Minister, she will make up her own mind.
:32:21. > :32:23.Actually getting some clear idea of what it is that the United Kingdom
:32:24. > :32:29.is seeking in terms of a future relationship is going to very
:32:30. > :32:34.important. And I think it is impossible to give a particular time
:32:35. > :32:38.frame. But I agree with Gisela Stuart. But the time frame has to
:32:39. > :32:43.work and it has to be done in good time for the 2020 election, so you
:32:44. > :32:47.can work back from that. I think you can, but I think that she needs, the
:32:48. > :32:50.Prime Minister needs to be given maximum flexibility about this
:32:51. > :32:54.because boxing herself in to how she goes about what is going to be one
:32:55. > :32:57.of the most difficult political transformations this country has
:32:58. > :33:01.gone through in modern times, I think that requires pragmatism. Does
:33:02. > :33:07.it require a vote of Parliament to trigger Article 50? Not necessarily.
:33:08. > :33:10.Let's come back to something. This is not just about our relationship
:33:11. > :33:19.with the EU, it is our relationship with the rest of the world.
:33:20. > :33:23.Triggering Article 50 has also been interpreted into how we talk with
:33:24. > :33:26.other countries. But we can talk with them without concluding deals?
:33:27. > :33:31.But in terms of negotiations, there comes a point that to make it
:33:32. > :33:36.meaningful, you have to trigger it. But I want to ask you, do we need a
:33:37. > :33:44.vote in parliament to trigger Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a
:33:45. > :33:46.matter of convention. The idea that a government could take a decision
:33:47. > :33:51.of such massive importance to the United Kingdom without Parliamentary
:33:52. > :33:55.approval, it seems to me to be extremely far-fetched. It is not
:33:56. > :34:00.about law. It is about convention and reality. Do you agree? I can see
:34:01. > :34:05.the arguments from both sides but I don't think you absolutely have to
:34:06. > :34:09.do it. We have not got a lot of time, would you vote for triggering
:34:10. > :34:14.Article 50? Yes. I have made it quite clear that the result of the
:34:15. > :34:19.referendum must mean that we have to be willing to embark on the process.
:34:20. > :34:24.I put in one rider to that which is that it seems to me that any
:34:25. > :34:28.sensible decision has to be made at the time you make it. But that is
:34:29. > :34:32.not a suggestion that I am going to suddenly decide not to support
:34:33. > :34:35.triggering Article 50, but triggering Article 50 is an
:34:36. > :34:40.important political step to withdraw from the EU. One has to keep that in
:34:41. > :34:44.mind. Do you worry that people like Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves
:34:45. > :34:49.up to call for a second referendum on the nature of the deal we will
:34:50. > :34:53.do? I do. I think if there is one thing the European Union is very
:34:54. > :34:57.good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both
:34:58. > :35:02.sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union
:35:03. > :35:09.itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best
:35:10. > :35:11.deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of
:35:12. > :35:15.the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying
:35:16. > :35:20.that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that
:35:21. > :35:23.in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it
:35:24. > :35:27.about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not
:35:28. > :35:32.necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the
:35:33. > :35:36.circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is
:35:37. > :35:40.some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of
:35:41. > :35:44.circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the
:35:45. > :35:47.general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what
:35:48. > :35:51.people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's
:35:52. > :35:57.opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only
:35:58. > :36:01.way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are
:36:02. > :36:07.saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls
:36:08. > :36:12.that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I
:36:13. > :36:19.ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the
:36:20. > :36:24.base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be
:36:25. > :36:34.asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have
:36:35. > :36:38.given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have
:36:39. > :36:42.said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU
:36:43. > :36:46.and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of
:36:47. > :36:50.it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going
:36:51. > :36:56.to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the
:36:57. > :36:59.point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic
:37:00. > :37:04.Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership
:37:05. > :37:07.contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going
:37:08. > :37:12.to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be
:37:13. > :37:16.foisted upon you? I think it would be a disastrous step because both
:37:17. > :37:20.political parties need to search why they were so out of step with the
:37:21. > :37:23.electorate, particularly the Labour Party. It is a Parliamentary
:37:24. > :37:26.democracy were we get elected to do a job and that is to either hold the
:37:27. > :37:31.government to account or to be the government. We have asked them and
:37:32. > :37:35.they have reflected, in large numbers, they have said that we want
:37:36. > :37:37.to leave. And they expect us to get on with the job. I am sorry to rush
:37:38. > :37:40.you but we have been short of time. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:41. > :37:42.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:43. > :37:51.in Scotland and Wales, who leave us Hello and welcome to the last
:37:52. > :37:53.Sunday Politics Wales Owen Smith sets out his stall
:37:54. > :37:59.as he makes his bid And Elin Jones on her baptism
:38:00. > :38:05.of fire as the new Llywydd. My guests, Liz Silversmith
:38:06. > :38:07.and Nick Ramsay, will be here to discuss that and everything
:38:08. > :38:10.else that's happened in yet another massive political week,
:38:11. > :38:12.during which, by the way, But first, spare a thought
:38:13. > :38:18.for Carwyn Jones. Returned as First Minister,
:38:19. > :38:21.back in May he must have thought Now he's looking at a potential
:38:22. > :38:25.split in his party, a new Prime Minister in Westminster
:38:26. > :38:29.and Wales being sidelined in Europe. When I met up with him in his
:38:30. > :38:31.constituency office in Bridgend, I began by asking him
:38:32. > :38:34.about what his government was doing to make Wales' voice
:38:35. > :38:39.heard in Brussels. We have an office
:38:40. > :38:41.in Brussels anyway. What I have looked to do
:38:42. > :38:44.is to strengthen the office to make sure we have the right people
:38:45. > :38:47.there who can form part of any future negotiation
:38:48. > :38:51.with the European Union. We do that in parallel to the UK
:38:52. > :38:54.negotiations, it's not meant to be a separate process,
:38:55. > :38:57.but we need to make sure that You will note that Mark Drakeford,
:38:58. > :39:02.your finance secretary has sent a letter to the European Commission
:39:03. > :39:05.following their failure to turn up to a meeting -
:39:06. > :39:09.a regular, scheduled meeting about European funds
:39:10. > :39:13.and their allocation in Wales. He speaks of a concern
:39:14. > :39:15.of being frozen out Is that the sense you're
:39:16. > :39:19.getting at the moment? There's no doubt that the Commission
:39:20. > :39:22.has decided that it is not going to play a part in those
:39:23. > :39:25.meetings from now on. I think we're in a period,
:39:26. > :39:28.at the moment, of two sides The UK has said that it
:39:29. > :39:34.won't trigger Article 50 until there The EU said there will not be any
:39:35. > :39:38.informal negotiations At the moment, we are at an impasse
:39:39. > :39:44.and, over the next few weeks, Is it a concern that the European
:39:45. > :39:48.Commission aren't turning I mean, this is money
:39:49. > :39:52.which will be there until 2020. Do you have a sense as to why
:39:53. > :39:55.they're not actually engaging, perhaps, with the Welsh Government
:39:56. > :39:59.on already scheduled meetings? Clearly, the Commission have said,
:40:00. > :40:03."From now on and don't play "Even in business
:40:04. > :40:08.that affects the EU." I can't explain the reasoning
:40:09. > :40:10.for that but that seems to be Mark Drakeford says,
:40:11. > :40:15.in his letter, that it is, "Of concern to stakeholders and
:40:16. > :40:18.partners, with whom we are working." They're difficult enough times
:40:19. > :40:22.for those people anyway, whereas if the European Commission
:40:23. > :40:26.stars to come out saying, "We're not talking to you at
:40:27. > :40:29.the moment," that makes it even What's really odd about it is
:40:30. > :40:33.that this is European money and we have the Commission saying,
:40:34. > :40:36."We're not going to be involved in monitoring how
:40:37. > :40:38.the money is spent." It is very difficult for us but it
:40:39. > :40:41.just seems like a strange position for the Commission to adopt
:40:42. > :40:43.at this stage. Are you concerned this is how
:40:44. > :40:47.it is going to be from now on or do you think that this might resolve
:40:48. > :40:50.itself, given a bit of time? I've long given up trying to predict
:40:51. > :40:53.what is going to happen. This is so new that nobody knows
:40:54. > :40:55.what will happen next. Nobody knows when Article 50 will be
:40:56. > :40:59.triggered to startthe process This is the absolutely crucial bit -
:41:00. > :41:05.nobody knows what the trade deal For me, the absolute red line
:41:06. > :41:09.is that Welsh businesses must have free access
:41:10. > :41:13.to the European single market. It will be very difficult for us
:41:14. > :41:19.to attract investments if we have to say to investors,
:41:20. > :41:22."If we are to sell to the market in Europe, there will be a 5%
:41:23. > :41:25.tariff or a 10% tariff." Having that free access
:41:26. > :41:30.is absolutely vital for us. I want to come on in a moment
:41:31. > :41:33.to talk about Theresa May, our new Prime Minister
:41:34. > :41:36.and the relationship there. One of the things she has done
:41:37. > :41:39.is put David Davis in charge of the Brexit negotiations,
:41:40. > :41:44.the Secretary of State Have you had any discussions
:41:45. > :41:47.with him? How do you think he will work
:41:48. > :41:50.in collaboration with her? What it is that worries me
:41:51. > :41:54.is that he seems not to be worried about having to operate under WTO
:41:55. > :41:57.rules were tariffs are in place. In fact, he seems to argue
:41:58. > :42:00.they are a good thing. If you have tariffs on goods
:42:01. > :42:03.entering in the UK, that might mean ?2 billion extra
:42:04. > :42:05.for the UK Government. This is a tax that people,
:42:06. > :42:07.individuals, will pay. At the end of the day,
:42:08. > :42:13.it means an extra tax for British citizens when they buy things,
:42:14. > :42:15.it goes straight to This is not an advantage as far
:42:16. > :42:19.as people are concerned. That struck me as worrying
:42:20. > :42:22.that he did not see the importance of the single market and operating
:42:23. > :42:26.in a situation where, for example, if we can export steel into the EU,
:42:27. > :42:29.there would be a tariff If Welsh farmers want to export lamb
:42:30. > :42:33.to the European We have to do everything we can
:42:34. > :42:41.to avoid that scenario occurring. Do you think it would make sense
:42:42. > :42:44.for the Welsh Government to have its own Brexit Minister
:42:45. > :42:47.who does nothing else but talk with David Davies,
:42:48. > :42:49.think about these trade But you have an awful lot
:42:50. > :42:56.of other things to do. There can't be
:42:57. > :42:59.a minister from Brexit. I have a limited number
:43:00. > :43:03.of ministers I can appoint, The reality is that we can do this
:43:04. > :43:08.anyway, with working... Not just me, but the Cabinet
:43:09. > :43:10.and other parties as well. We had discussions with Plaid Cymru
:43:11. > :43:12.on this issue. We do need a team in Brussels,
:43:13. > :43:20.that's being set up. That is one of the
:43:21. > :43:24.first things I did after the referendum was say,
:43:25. > :43:26."We need people in place of experience, political issue
:43:27. > :43:29.into over Brussels to advise us on what doors might be
:43:30. > :43:31.possible to open. Because people have
:43:32. > :43:33.voted to leave the EU. Even though the Welsh people
:43:34. > :43:38.voted to leave the EU, And our job is to make sure
:43:39. > :43:43.that we acknowledge their decision, don't try to overturn it,
:43:44. > :43:46.but also make sure that they are not One of the other big issues,
:43:47. > :43:50.I guess, facing the UK Which at the moment does not
:43:51. > :43:55.hinder the operating Do you have concerns, for example,
:43:56. > :44:00.when you see the Wales Government in Parliament last week
:44:01. > :44:02.and practically not a single Welsh Labour MP was therefore that
:44:03. > :44:06.very important discussion, because they are embroiled in this
:44:07. > :44:10.civil war, edging to the? How much of a concern is that
:44:11. > :44:16.when you see that? If I sat here and told you that
:44:17. > :44:19.I think things are fine, We are in a very different position
:44:20. > :44:23.as a party. I said some weeks ago
:44:24. > :44:26.that we do have a contest. It looks as if we're going to get
:44:27. > :44:29.that in order to resolve this issue but you're not in any state to fight
:44:30. > :44:33.an election at the moment. So, we need to get this resolved
:44:34. > :44:35.and get ourselves united, and effective for the people
:44:36. > :44:38.who look to us for leadership. Would you welcome seeing
:44:39. > :44:42.a Welsh Labour MP leading the party? I've always said in years gone by,
:44:43. > :44:46.and I'll be doing the same this time arrived, that I never actually
:44:47. > :44:48.declare an favour of a candidate It's not me who support somebody
:44:49. > :44:54.as a candidate to be a party I've always kept my counsel in terms
:44:55. > :45:05.of supporting anybody. We've had a very busy period
:45:06. > :45:08.of a couple of months, do you anticipate or perhaps hope
:45:09. > :45:10.for a slightly calmer Normally, after an election,
:45:11. > :45:15.things quite and down for a while. If you'd have said to me a few
:45:16. > :45:32.months ago that Boris Johnson with the Foreign Secretary,
:45:33. > :45:34.I'd have been stunned The world is in such a unusual
:45:35. > :45:40.place at the moment, Britons and a very unusual place,
:45:41. > :45:43.that it is difficult to make any What I do know is that there
:45:44. > :45:47.are so many people in Wales and in Britain who need to make sure
:45:48. > :45:51.that they feel they are represented by a party that looks
:45:52. > :45:53.after their needs, and we should Carwyn Jones outlining the
:45:54. > :45:58.challenges. Could Labour go for another
:45:59. > :46:00.Welshman as its leader? Later today Owen Smith
:46:01. > :46:02.will launch his bid. The Pontypridd MP left
:46:03. > :46:04.Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet during the mass resignations
:46:05. > :46:06.which followed the Brexit vote. Away from the Westminster bubble,
:46:07. > :46:09.Cemlyn Davies has been to Mr Smith's political back yard,
:46:10. > :46:11.to see how the prospect of a local boy with national dreams
:46:12. > :46:27.has gone down there. This time straddles the river Taff,
:46:28. > :46:31.its famous bridge uniting East and West, right and left. The town's MP
:46:32. > :46:35.think he can do the same for a deeply divided party. Owen Smith
:46:36. > :46:39.hopes to replace Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, and he does have the
:46:40. > :46:45.support of many local party members who believe he can do what Jeremy
:46:46. > :46:48.Corbyn cannot. What Owen possesses that Jeremy does not is leadership
:46:49. > :46:55.skills. I think you need that to unify the party, both wings, and we
:46:56. > :46:59.need a win to uniform all of it. He is part of the moderate left. Many
:47:00. > :47:07.of the policies currently espoused by the Labour Party, he is part of
:47:08. > :47:10.the development of. So if we have Owen Smith is our leader, we will
:47:11. > :47:14.have somebody who is very credible in government, but we will also have
:47:15. > :47:18.someone who will take the party in the direction that clearly many
:47:19. > :47:23.people, especially the people of Pontypridd, want us to go in. But of
:47:24. > :47:26.course Jeremy Corbyn has an army of loyal and passionate supporters who
:47:27. > :47:31.believe their elected leader has been unfairly treated and should be
:47:32. > :47:36.allowed to carry on with his work. I met up with two of them in
:47:37. > :47:42.Pontypridd. He has done a lot of good things in a short period of
:47:43. > :47:45.time, and with opposition from his own party memories, so given the
:47:46. > :47:50.right team and a team attitude he might be able to achieve a lot. He
:47:51. > :47:54.has not been given that opportunity. Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn can
:47:55. > :48:02.realistically win a general election as Labour Leader? I think in time he
:48:03. > :48:08.can. In time. I think in time he can. Jeremy Corbyn has always stayed
:48:09. > :48:15.true to his principle, he has always fought for social equality, he has
:48:16. > :48:19.been the only prominent member of Parliament that has actually fought
:48:20. > :48:23.against austerity. Owen Smith is coming up with anti-austerity, and
:48:24. > :48:29.so is Angela Eagle, just copying him. With Owen Smith now hoping to
:48:30. > :48:32.be Labour Leader, this constituency and town finds itself reflecting the
:48:33. > :48:37.deep division within the party nationally. Between those who still
:48:38. > :48:42.firmly support Jeremy Corbyn's entrenched left-wing views, and
:48:43. > :48:45.those who believe he must be replaced by a more moderate
:48:46. > :48:50.politician if Labour is to have any chance of regaining power. That
:48:51. > :48:54.division may extend to Owen Smith's own constituency office, an office
:48:55. > :49:03.he shares with his assembly counterparts and long-time Corbin
:49:04. > :49:05.supporter. He said he will not be commenting on any of the candidates
:49:06. > :49:10.in this leadership election, but last month, anticipating a contest,
:49:11. > :49:13.he said he would be supporting the current leader. 35 years ago,
:49:14. > :49:20.similar tensions within Labour led to the formation of a new political
:49:21. > :49:23.party. I cannot any longer conceive of my acute concern about some of
:49:24. > :49:28.the developments in the Labour Party which will not enhance the prospects
:49:29. > :49:34.of the Labour Party and also affect the long-term unity of the Labour
:49:35. > :49:38.movement. This man was the Labour MP when he wrote this letter to local
:49:39. > :49:46.party members in 1974. A few years later, concerned Labour was drifting
:49:47. > :49:49.too far to the left, he set up the social Democratic party along with
:49:50. > :49:56.others. How does this current crisis compare? This is bigger. First of
:49:57. > :50:01.all, there is a mass movement which Jeremy Corbyn leads, which is
:50:02. > :50:07.saying, this is how we want the party run. And there is a
:50:08. > :50:13.parliamentary party, strong, vast majority of them, think in a
:50:14. > :50:19.different way. That was not how it was in the 1970s. As social
:50:20. > :50:28.Democrats and rebels were in a very small minority. So is another split
:50:29. > :50:32.on a much greater scale inevitable? The Labour Party is in dire trouble,
:50:33. > :50:37.in dire trouble of splitting. Whether it will split in the next
:50:38. > :50:46.nine months or so, I am not so sure. But they are on that road. I think a
:50:47. > :50:49.real risk. Totally. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn wants that to happen,
:50:50. > :50:55.I do not think that he will have brought it, he did not bring a coup
:50:56. > :50:58.against himself, did he? I don't think there is a danger of the party
:50:59. > :51:01.spitting but it is a possible that interfere and we have to do
:51:02. > :51:09.everything we can to stop that from happening. -- a possibility and a
:51:10. > :51:13.fear. William Edwards took for attempts to build this bridge --
:51:14. > :51:18.four. As for uniting the Labour Party, or that the bridge too far?
:51:19. > :51:20.-- could that be a bridge too far? Well, when my colleague
:51:21. > :51:24.James Williams caught up with Owen Smith, he began
:51:25. > :51:26.by asking him whether he was making party divisions worse
:51:27. > :51:41.by challenging Jeremy Corbyn. No. Because the four I decided to
:51:42. > :51:47.challenge Jeremy Corbyn, a members had voted no confidence in him. His
:51:48. > :51:54.entire Shadow Cabinet had resided. -- 172. -- resigned. The question is
:51:55. > :51:59.now hard to heal that divide and I spent ten days trying to talk to
:52:00. > :52:09.journey, 121, with his team about how I could help frame some sort of
:52:10. > :52:12.deal or compromise to bring the party together. -- one-two-one. In a
:52:13. > :52:15.united and powerful fashion that we need to. He was not prepared to
:52:16. > :52:22.accept any of those compromises. At that point I felt,
:52:23. > :52:24.as Angela Eagle felt, that the only way to try and bring
:52:25. > :52:28.the Labour Party together and make it not only a powerful opposition
:52:29. > :52:30.but a radical, credible government in waiting,
:52:31. > :52:33.was to challenge Jeremy and seek to, in my case, put the stamp
:52:34. > :52:36.of a new generation of Labour men Do you think Jeremy Corbyn's support
:52:37. > :52:40.within the Labour Party I don't quite know what you mean
:52:41. > :52:47.by that, I think Jeremy Corbyn got elected with a very large
:52:48. > :52:49.mandate in the membership. But the Labour Party is a coalition,
:52:50. > :52:53.it is a coalition of the trade unions, members of the Labour Party,
:52:54. > :52:55.the socialist societies, affiliated societies,
:52:56. > :53:03.and the Parliamentary Labour Party, and if you are the Labour Party
:53:04. > :53:06.leader, you have got be able to command respect
:53:07. > :53:09.and support and be a leader in all of those different parts
:53:10. > :53:13.of the party, and what is evident is that Jeremy is not someone who,
:53:14. > :53:15.as a leader, can command the support and trust and faith
:53:16. > :53:19.of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And that is enormously important
:53:20. > :53:21.because Labour was created by the trade union movement to be
:53:22. > :53:32.representation in Parliament. The route to socialism
:53:33. > :53:34.we want to pursue is the Parliamentary route,
:53:35. > :53:36.and therefore you have got to be able to be a credible,
:53:37. > :53:38.active, powerful opposition to the Government of the day,
:53:39. > :53:44.and you have got to stand ready to be the next Government,
:53:45. > :53:46.a credible Government that Many of us feel that under Jeremy,
:53:47. > :53:50.the Labour Party is not in a position to win back people's
:53:51. > :53:53.trust, it doesn't look like a credible opposition,
:53:54. > :53:55.certainly does not look Here we are teetering on the brink
:53:56. > :54:01.of another recession, six years into a Tory Government
:54:02. > :54:04.that has destroyed livelihoods of many people across this country
:54:05. > :54:08.with completely self-defeating austerity, and Labour looks a long,
:54:09. > :54:11.long way from power, and that is not something working
:54:12. > :54:20.people can afford. I mean it any sense that is not a
:54:21. > :54:30.danger whether you or Angela Eagle wind that Jeremy Corbyn's supporters
:54:31. > :54:36.could split from the party? If he winds, that that mean that part of
:54:37. > :54:39.your party will split? How far with that. I think some people on the far
:54:40. > :54:44.left of the Labour Party will sit in a position and see that there is an
:54:45. > :54:49.extra parliamentary route to socialism, the street, if you like.
:54:50. > :54:55.They may feel that Parliament is less important in place as a
:54:56. > :55:02.crucible for debate and for making our socialist values and policy and
:55:03. > :55:07.practice. But it left and right they are engaging in this battle they
:55:08. > :55:11.unfortunately become a bit fatalistic and limbs of the prospect
:55:12. > :55:15.of a split. I am a better light on this, as with a lot of issues.
:55:16. > :55:19.Romney, it is the Labour Party are nothing but a really great as
:55:20. > :55:23.vehicle for social movement and we're one of the great British
:55:24. > :55:26.institution that has bound people together for a century. It would be
:55:27. > :55:33.a catastrophic split any Labour Party and a catastrophe for working
:55:34. > :55:38.people if they were not to stand up for them. -- we were not to stand
:55:39. > :55:43.up. Unfortunately, there is a far right movement in this country on
:55:44. > :55:46.the rise and we need to stand together and unite, but crucially
:55:47. > :55:53.have a Government in waiting. You think that only be one challenges to
:55:54. > :55:59.Jeremy Corbyn's there is a widespread view in the Labour Party
:56:00. > :56:06.that it would be preferable. Do you think so? Yes, I think we need to
:56:07. > :56:11.find a way at which we get to that. It's not for me to determine that. I
:56:12. > :56:15.am one of the challenges and IM happy to submit myself to what ever
:56:16. > :56:23.decision-making process is derived at by the party or indeed by anyone.
:56:24. > :56:29.What is decided, I will support that and I will make my case any positive
:56:30. > :56:32.fashion and elderly people will be interested in what I have got to say
:56:33. > :56:39.and TV that I am someone who can unite the party and resided present
:56:40. > :56:43.for us. Both the radicalism of Jeremy Corbyn but with a pragmatic,
:56:44. > :56:47.credible edge that people will see that this is not just a bunch of
:56:48. > :56:52.slogans, these are a set of policies that Labour can deliver and then we
:56:53. > :56:56.will deliver real meaningful change for people's lies. Anti-austerities
:56:57. > :57:02.a great slogan but you have to say how you can tune into prosperity for
:57:03. > :57:09.people with hard-headed policy. The backrest and nine. Would you be
:57:10. > :57:13.willing, if you are not the Challenger two Jeremy Corbyn, to
:57:14. > :57:18.pull out of the race? -- with that question in mind. Likewise, would
:57:19. > :57:23.you expect other candidates to pull out? We will cross that bridge when
:57:24. > :57:29.we get to it. There are only three candidates. I think we need to wait
:57:30. > :57:34.and see what the view of the Parliamentary Labour Party is. That
:57:35. > :57:38.is their job. That is the job of MPs at this stage. They have to decide
:57:39. > :57:43.who is the best candidate and whether they like? Who do they think
:57:44. > :57:46.is best placed to lead our party? I will put my trust in my colleagues
:57:47. > :57:51.to make a decision. Whatever they decide, I will abide by it. I am
:57:52. > :57:54.here to serve the Labour Party but I am also come in this moment trying
:57:55. > :57:59.to save the Labour Party because, if someone does not stand up and say,
:58:00. > :58:02.he was how we stand up and unite, he was a programme we can get behind in
:58:03. > :58:08.Parliament, in the country, we will not succeed. You seem to agree with
:58:09. > :58:11.a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's policies that they agree with the content
:58:12. > :58:16.that you say you are a better package. I do agree with a lot of
:58:17. > :58:21.things that Jeremy Corbyn is. I served because, not just buy within
:58:22. > :58:24.the Labour Party, but because I thought Jeremy articulated what me
:58:25. > :58:29.and a lot of others feel that we became acute unit in it to
:58:30. > :58:38.managerial list. Austerity is completely self defeatist. Anyone,
:58:39. > :58:43.in the mix or economics, will tell you can cut your growth in a
:58:44. > :58:49.business. That he was articulate by Jackie go beyond it. You have to say
:58:50. > :58:55.how you will do this, what are the policies and we have do go from
:58:56. > :58:59.protesting against austerity saying how we deliver prosperity. I can do
:59:00. > :59:07.that. In doing that, I can appeal to a broad is we -- sweep of the
:59:08. > :59:11.British public. We have got to appeal and build a coalition in the
:59:12. > :59:19.country. We have always got to appeal to people. We cannot think of
:59:20. > :59:20.people in terms of class. I think I have the skills and ideas to do
:59:21. > :59:24.that. Thank you very much. Plenty to chew over with my guests
:59:25. > :59:26.then, the political analyst Liz Silversmith and the
:59:27. > :59:36.Conservative AM Nick Ramsay. Thank you both very much coming in
:59:37. > :59:40.this morning. You spent most of your time looking and analysing political
:59:41. > :59:44.parties. Let's just pick up where the Labour Party is at the moment.
:59:45. > :59:48.What they make of what is going on there? I just think about how it was
:59:49. > :59:51.12 months ago when Harriet Harman was the acting leader and a bachelor
:59:52. > :00:02.that go with tax credits that votes are not. Ideally, it has changed so
:00:03. > :00:06.much. You can see the Alan Smith -- Owen. His first thing was to say it
:00:07. > :00:09.is a political choice, not an economic ties. We have seen the
:00:10. > :00:19.repercussions of a lot of change in the party. Is there an element here
:00:20. > :00:29.of Angela Eagle and Owen Smith barring quite heavily from Jeremy
:00:30. > :00:34.Corbyn's policies -- boring? -- borrowing? Do they realise that they
:00:35. > :00:39.have to copy Jeremy Corbyn to beat him? They realise his policies are
:00:40. > :00:46.quite popular. There is a reason people are joining Labour. Whatever
:00:47. > :00:52.the ball is, it is not to do with the actual policies. It is quite a
:00:53. > :00:58.change to what it is in your last 12 months. They are moderate, slightly
:00:59. > :01:04.left and moderate and then not quite so left. There is a lot of boxes for
:01:05. > :01:07.people to fit in. I was going to say put your party views to one side but
:01:08. > :01:13.that is not possible, how do you view it from another side? Harold
:01:14. > :01:17.Wilson once said that a week is a long time in politics and that has
:01:18. > :01:21.never been more true. Politically, I suppose, for my party, for the
:01:22. > :01:25.Conservatives, we are not going to worry if the opposition party is in
:01:26. > :01:29.turmoil. You could say that makes it easier for us to get on with what
:01:30. > :01:36.you're doing however, I do think that in a democracy, gave -- you
:01:37. > :01:39.need a viable opposition and at the moment, that is not Labour. They
:01:40. > :01:45.need to look very closely at who they choose so that the country does
:01:46. > :01:52.have a choice in the future. And what do you think? Is any chance...
:01:53. > :01:58.I know Theresa May has ruled out but do you think she might be tempted
:01:59. > :02:01.for a general election in the autumn? It's a very similar problem
:02:02. > :02:07.to Gordon Brown. If you call that now, she will win. If you call it
:02:08. > :02:10.early, no one will be prepared. The Conservatives are the only ones who
:02:11. > :02:15.can afford an election at the moment. The thing is, with assembly
:02:16. > :02:18.elections and another referendum, and the general election, the
:02:19. > :02:23.parties have no money. Labour spent ?5 million in the referendum
:02:24. > :02:29.campaign. She could call it but I doubt it. Speaking of money, we were
:02:30. > :02:40.hearing from Carwyn Jones about the concerns he has with Mark Drake said
:02:41. > :02:44.-- Drakeford. They are saying the EU officials will not talk to them. How
:02:45. > :02:49.much of a concern is that? If it is the case, it is concerning. We are
:02:50. > :02:53.still in the early days. Article 50 has not been invoked yet. Let's see
:02:54. > :02:57.how this pans out. I know certainly that the new Prime Minister has said
:02:58. > :03:00.she wants Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be very active
:03:01. > :03:03.in the discussions. I would love that bewilderment would be as
:03:04. > :03:07.involved as possible. They need to be. I'm sure Carwyn Jones would
:03:08. > :03:13.agree that if he was here. You've got a lot of public bodies that you
:03:14. > :03:18.work with, European brands and so on. It must be very unsettling for
:03:19. > :03:20.them anyway, especially now with European Commission and the
:03:21. > :03:25.officials there starting to say that we are not going to be engaged with
:03:26. > :03:31.the Welsh Government. -- grants. Yes, we have also heard before the
:03:32. > :03:39.referendum and during, Wales was in that beneficiary fund and a lot of
:03:40. > :03:43.it relies on EU funding. I'll Wales has got its own unique concerns and
:03:44. > :03:48.issues that it wants to race. It will have to have a really strong
:03:49. > :03:52.relationship with the Brexit team in the UK Government to be heard,
:03:53. > :03:55.otherwise it will get washed out. We cannot afford to get this wrong. We
:03:56. > :04:00.are heavily reliant on these funds as we need to know that there will
:04:01. > :04:05.be more money coming to us, we know it will through the Barnett formula
:04:06. > :04:08.but we have to get this right. How much pressure of the thinkers on the
:04:09. > :04:16.UK Government and the likes of David Davis who have said that Wells will
:04:17. > :04:22.not lose out financially? -- Liam Fox. I have confidence that Theresa
:04:23. > :04:26.May is the person to lead as any discussions. We have a third rate
:04:27. > :04:38.Prime Minister at the right point but never have we needed a unified
:04:39. > :04:42.Government. -- a first rate. We cannot afford to get this wrong. The
:04:43. > :04:43.Welsh economy is too important. Thank you very much but we will move
:04:44. > :04:45.on for now. She's been an AM since the Assembly
:04:46. > :04:47.started, a minister too. Now Elin Jones has landed in the big
:04:48. > :04:50.chair, as Llywydd, the referee And she's had to draw
:04:51. > :04:54.on all her experience to deal with, shall we say, a series
:04:55. > :04:56.of challenging incidents When I spoke to her in the chamber,
:04:57. > :05:01.I began by asking whether the past few weeks had been livelier
:05:02. > :05:04.than she'd expected? I'm pleased to have been elected
:05:05. > :05:09.as the Presiding Officer, the Llywydd, for the National
:05:10. > :05:10.Assembly. I want there to be lively debate
:05:11. > :05:13.in this chamber that reflects the priorities and interests
:05:14. > :05:16.of people in Wales. We have one new party,
:05:17. > :05:18.for the first time, elected They have views that may be
:05:19. > :05:27.quite different to some of the political views held by other
:05:28. > :05:30.political parties here. All those views have to be heard
:05:31. > :05:33.and that political challenge As long as everything is in order,
:05:34. > :05:38.I will allow that debate to happen because people in Wales voted
:05:39. > :05:40.in a variety of different ways in May and all those voices need
:05:41. > :05:43.to be heard and reflected in this I guess, in terms of those
:05:44. > :05:53.discussions central to this place over the next few years,
:05:54. > :05:55.nothing will be more important than those discussions over leaving
:05:56. > :05:58.the European Union - thousands of pieces of legislation
:05:59. > :06:01.need to be unpicked - How central will that be to this
:06:02. > :06:07.place over the next few years? Well, there is a danger that it can
:06:08. > :06:10.dominate, completely, the work of this place
:06:11. > :06:12.because it is such a huge There is a danger, isn't there,
:06:13. > :06:20.that many of the discussions about leaving the European Union
:06:21. > :06:23.and I'm taking the legislation and the funding will happen
:06:24. > :06:25.behind closed doors, between Government ministers and EU
:06:26. > :06:29.Commission officials. I want this place to open
:06:30. > :06:33.up that debate. We have already established
:06:34. > :06:37.a committee that will lead on that work for this National Assembly
:06:38. > :06:39.but I'm sure that every committee and this chamber in particular
:06:40. > :06:42.will focus quite significantly over But the danger, of course,
:06:43. > :06:51.is that there are many other aspects of work that are untouched, almost,
:06:52. > :06:55.to an extent by the EU exit and those areas cannot be ignored
:06:56. > :07:00.or sidelined, even. The future of our NHS,
:07:01. > :07:03.education and general economic They all need to have
:07:04. > :07:09.their place here as well. Sure, and we're already
:07:10. > :07:10.being told... Assembly members already claim
:07:11. > :07:12.that they are overworked. When you add to that workload
:07:13. > :07:17.with the possibility of Brexit, with the possibility
:07:18. > :07:20.of different tax powers. Is there a case to be made now that,
:07:21. > :07:26.at the very least, Assembly members should be staying
:07:27. > :07:29.here for longer hours? Could they come in on a Thursday
:07:30. > :07:32.rather than a Wednesday? I have no doubt that the next five
:07:33. > :07:38.years will prove a very difficult time for Assembly members
:07:39. > :07:44.in terms of their workload. We have already extended
:07:45. > :07:52.the formal calendar week of the National Assembly
:07:53. > :07:57.since I've become Llywydd. We need to look at that again
:07:58. > :08:01.at some point if matters We've already agreed
:08:02. > :08:09.to lessen the recess period of the National Assembly for this
:08:10. > :08:12.year and I suspect we may have Assembly members are going to have
:08:13. > :08:18.to work out harder than they've ever worked before, given the increased
:08:19. > :08:20.workload that will come with needing to ensure that Wales' interests
:08:21. > :08:29.are properly looked after in terms of getting the EU exit to work
:08:30. > :08:33.in Wales' interests and that is a big job
:08:34. > :08:37.for the Assembly members. Elin Jones there, the second woman
:08:38. > :08:40.to be the Presiding Officer, and indeed this week the UK
:08:41. > :08:42.got its second female My guests are still here to talk
:08:43. > :08:56.about that and everything else First of all, to pick up on what
:08:57. > :09:00.Elin Jones was saying, you're probably going to have to work
:09:01. > :09:06.longer hours, work harder, is that what you're expecting? Yes, and we
:09:07. > :09:09.were expecting that from the moment tax powers were promised to the
:09:10. > :09:14.Assembly, from the moment we got further powers in 2007. There are
:09:15. > :09:17.only 60 of us, so compared with the 600 or so in Parliament there is a
:09:18. > :09:23.greater burden on each Assembly member. As the discussion gone away
:09:24. > :09:29.for the time being despite the increased workload? It has, for the
:09:30. > :09:32.time being, because there are so many other things to discuss, it has
:09:33. > :09:37.been squeezed out! That will come back at some point, the 60-70
:09:38. > :09:40.members are there for five years to do that job, but we will have
:09:41. > :09:45.discussion about further numbers in the next few years. One of the
:09:46. > :09:51.things Elin Jones was saying is that even though exit decisions are going
:09:52. > :09:55.to be very important over the next few years, it must not be at the
:09:56. > :10:01.expense of health and hospitals and schools, education. How difficult
:10:02. > :10:04.balances that? It is difficult, because these things have
:10:05. > :10:08.implications on everything. We cannot simply focus on the funds and
:10:09. > :10:12.what we have lost. But how was that going to impact on the functioning
:10:13. > :10:17.of society? We have got a massive load of education reforms coming
:10:18. > :10:19.through this term. The NHS continues to be massively changing, and they
:10:20. > :10:24.are trying to amalgamate health and social services more. Those things
:10:25. > :10:29.cannot be left by the wayside. With the more powers coming, you cannot
:10:30. > :10:36.lose scrutiny on those sites. Are the AM is up to it? Is the calibre
:10:37. > :10:45.there to grapple with these huge challenges? I think there is. The
:10:46. > :10:49.case will come back that we have less public money to use. It was a
:10:50. > :10:56.little bit concerning in terms of Ukip entering, because they do not
:10:57. > :11:02.tend to believe and evolution. -- believe in evolution. Although you
:11:03. > :11:07.may not believe in this institution existing, you must take part in the
:11:08. > :11:11.scrutiny that. But we have seen Ukip engaging and getting into the
:11:12. > :11:17.issues. As long as they pull their weight, everybody can pull together
:11:18. > :11:21.to make sure it works. It is not only Westminster which will have to
:11:22. > :11:25.look at which European legislation it replaces replicates, there will
:11:26. > :11:28.be an increasing role for the Assembly to look at environmental
:11:29. > :11:36.legislation, for instance, that we have to do in Cardiff. Another huge
:11:37. > :11:41.thing that has happened this week, Theresa May as the Prime Minister.
:11:42. > :11:46.From the assembly point of view, what do you expect for change? In
:11:47. > :11:50.the short term, I do not think things will change. David Cameron
:11:51. > :11:56.was a very good Prime Minister in terms of engaging with us. I think
:11:57. > :12:03.Theresa May will be the same. Do you know how she views Wales and the
:12:04. > :12:05.Assembly? She is a liberal Conservative, so I do not think she
:12:06. > :12:12.will be trying to roll back on devolution. I think she will be
:12:13. > :12:15.looking to make the Welsh devolution settlement and the Constitution of
:12:16. > :12:18.the UK as a whole work better. That work has to be done with the Welsh
:12:19. > :12:25.civic society, and I'm looking forward to working with them. The
:12:26. > :12:29.fact that Theresa May went to see Nicola Sturgeon yesterday, she will
:12:30. > :12:33.be in Wales shortly. What do you think in terms of the constitutional
:12:34. > :12:40.debate will happen? Will it trickle down to Wales? Hopefully. But it
:12:41. > :12:48.will depend on whether Carwyn Jones it's himself forward. She went to
:12:49. > :12:54.see Nicola Sturgeon straightaway, and she demanded it. I think Carwyn
:12:55. > :12:58.Jones has to demand, in a way that we have to be around the table, it
:12:59. > :13:04.cannot just be Scotland then Wales over here. It has to be part of the
:13:05. > :13:06.same thing. There will be more calls for constitutional convention, that
:13:07. > :13:14.will become stronger. Hopefully she will be receptive to that. Just
:13:15. > :13:17.quickly, have you known a period like this in terms of politics, the
:13:18. > :13:24.likes of which we have seen since the end of June? I was born a few
:13:25. > :13:27.days after the 1975 referendum, and I do not think we have had such a
:13:28. > :13:33.tumultuous times since then. Briefly on Theresa May, I believe we will be
:13:34. > :13:36.seeing the Prime Minister visiting Wales sooner rather than later.
:13:37. > :13:41.There is an opportunity there for Carwyn Jones to raise these issues
:13:42. > :13:45.that mean a lot to us. Is a quieter period on the cards now? You cannot
:13:46. > :13:46.say that, probably not. We're off for a rest
:13:47. > :13:48.for a few weeks. Twitter never rests, of course,
:13:49. > :13:51.so you can follow us there - we're @walespolitics but for now
:13:52. > :13:54.that's all from me till September. Thanks for watching,
:13:55. > :14:12.and bye for now. This week, Gregg and Chris
:14:13. > :14:16.show how spending less on food... ..might be easier... It took me
:14:17. > :14:20.literally two minutes to make it.