:00:39. > :00:49.Jeremy Corbyn insists he can re-unite the Labour Party if he wins
:00:50. > :00:52.the leadership contest next week, but, as threats to deselect MPs
:00:53. > :00:55.opposed to Mr Corbyn come to light, is Labour heading for meltdown?
:00:56. > :00:59.She won the Ukip leadership on Friday, and by Saturday
:01:00. > :01:01.was facing internecine spats and calls for her to ditch
:01:02. > :01:06.So how can Diane James pull her party together,
:01:07. > :01:09.and what's the point of Ukip post-Brexit?
:01:10. > :01:15.Theresa May insists she doesn't need to call a fresh election,
:01:16. > :01:19.so will she deliver every promise made in the 2015
:01:20. > :01:27.Later in the programme: to check how much of it
:01:28. > :01:30.An uphill struggle or a bracing challenge?
:01:31. > :01:34.Ukip's new leader is in post, but the arguments
:01:35. > :01:36.In London, the fightback began 12 Neil Hamilton joins us live.
:01:37. > :01:50.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:51. > :01:52.panel in the business - Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis
:01:53. > :01:54.and Isabel Oakeshott, who'll be tweeting throughout
:01:55. > :01:58.the programme using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:59. > :02:01.By this time next week we'll know whether Jeremy Corbyn
:02:02. > :02:03.will remain Labour leader, or if his challenger, Owen Smith,
:02:04. > :02:10.Whoever wins, they face a big challenge to reunite the party
:02:11. > :02:13.after months of hostilities between Corbyn supporters
:02:14. > :02:19.in the grassroots and the majority of Labour MPs.
:02:20. > :02:23.Tomorrow, two television documentaries are scheduled to air -
:02:24. > :02:25.on BBC One and Channel 4 - which report on the
:02:26. > :02:29.Speaking to the BBC's deputy political editor John Pienaar
:02:30. > :02:35.for Panorama, Len McClusky, general secretary of the Unite
:02:36. > :02:38.union, said opponents of Mr Corbyn need to get back
:02:39. > :02:43.Some of the MPs have behaved absolutely despicably
:02:44. > :02:45.and disgracefully, and they've not shown any respect
:02:46. > :02:52.So those vocal dissidents who do not show the respect
:02:53. > :02:55.to the leader that you describe, when it comes to deselection
:02:56. > :02:58.they would simply be asking for it, you say?
:02:59. > :03:02.I think they would, I think anybody who behaves in a way
:03:03. > :03:06.that is totally disrespectful, and outwith the culture
:03:07. > :03:08.of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be
:03:09. > :03:18.Meanwhile, Channel 4's Dispatches programme secretly filmed a meeting
:03:19. > :03:23.of Momentum activists in London - that's the organisation set up
:03:24. > :03:26.to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, where the former
:03:27. > :03:28.chairman of the Brighton Labour Party set out his views
:03:29. > :03:30.on opponents of Corbyn, including the local
:03:31. > :04:27.And we've been joined by the Labour MP for Hove, Peter Kyle.
:04:28. > :04:35.Are you nervous about your future? I have seen that clip for the first
:04:36. > :04:39.time now. I made three promises when I was up for selection, that I would
:04:40. > :04:42.be the hardest working candidate, bring politics back to the high
:04:43. > :04:46.street and engage with the public in a way that they never had in the
:04:47. > :04:50.constituency before, and beat the Tories, and I have done all three of
:04:51. > :04:53.those things. I have been incredibly hard-working with my team to make
:04:54. > :04:57.sure politics is driven deeper and wider into the local constituency
:04:58. > :05:09.than it ever has been before. We are more inclusive than any point before
:05:10. > :05:12.and more hard-working... I want to ask you another question... If they
:05:13. > :05:15.want to get me out of that seat, they have to work hard to do so. Is
:05:16. > :05:18.there an organised campaign to remove you? You have just seen the
:05:19. > :05:21.chair of my local party talking in a secret meeting somewhere to have me
:05:22. > :05:24.ousted, so clearly there is a movement locally. I have been a
:05:25. > :05:28.member of the Labour Party my whole life, there are people who have
:05:29. > :05:31.fought for other parties their whole lives who have joined in the last
:05:32. > :05:35.few weeks and are trying to beat the Labour Party in a different way, by
:05:36. > :05:37.getting rid of me. I am going to carry on doing my job. They are
:05:38. > :05:52.trying to get rid of you, aren't they? They are trying to
:05:53. > :05:54.get rid of the only Labour seat for a 200 mile stretch of coastline.
:05:55. > :05:57.That is extraordinary, we are surrounded down there by Tories and
:05:58. > :05:59.they are aiming fire at a Labour MP working harder than any other down
:06:00. > :06:02.there, trying to solve problems of the rail, the health service,
:06:03. > :06:05.hosting a debate last week about abuse in the family Court against
:06:06. > :06:08.women, all of these core issues for the Labour Party and that is what
:06:09. > :06:13.they are aiming fire act. It does not seem to make any difference of
:06:14. > :06:18.Mr Sandall, who was the head of the constituency, who was once
:06:19. > :06:26.suspended, he says he does not -- you do not represent them any more?
:06:27. > :06:29.He said I did not support the doctors, I did, I took the line
:06:30. > :06:33.given by Heidi Alexander at the time, which was not to go to the
:06:34. > :06:38.particular picket line. I have held round tables with doctors, spoken in
:06:39. > :06:42.the chamber about doctors. He said a list of different areas where I have
:06:43. > :06:48.not supported the Labour socialist left line, every one of them he is
:06:49. > :06:53.absolutely categorically wrong. On rail renationalisation, I have never
:06:54. > :06:57.spoken against it. I said it cannot happen for ten years so in the
:06:58. > :06:59.meantime I am making sure I can make people's journeys home from work
:07:00. > :07:05.better than the journey to work, which is what people expect. Who
:07:06. > :07:10.will have the support, you all the people who want to get wood of you?
:07:11. > :07:14.I don't think about that for a second, my job is to represent the
:07:15. > :07:19.people who elected me. There is a 34% increase in the Labour vote in
:07:20. > :07:24.Hove because of the way that my team ran the campaign. But they know all
:07:25. > :07:30.that and they still want rid of you. Clive Lewis, fellow Labour MP, said
:07:31. > :07:33.to the BBC this morning it is democratic selection. There is
:07:34. > :07:51.nothing democratic about what they are doing,
:07:52. > :07:55.there is nothing reaching out about what they are doing. Jeremy is the
:07:56. > :07:58.first person I have come across who uses an olive branch as a weapon to
:07:59. > :08:01.beat people with. On the same day they hold out an olive branch, they
:08:02. > :08:04.released a list of MPs who they say hate Jeremy. This is not the kind of
:08:05. > :08:07.inclusive leadership I would expect. If you face a battle to hold your
:08:08. > :08:10.seat, you don't expect any help from Jeremy Corbyn? He has come down to
:08:11. > :08:13.Brighton and said he would not stand in the way of my deselection. I am
:08:14. > :08:15.100% focused on delivering for the people he elected me and I
:08:16. > :08:19.represent, that is what I am in politics for, so if they want to
:08:20. > :08:22.defeat me they have to work harder than me for the constituency, just
:08:23. > :08:27.like the Tories would have to do. You have made that point several
:08:28. > :08:31.times. You talk about being one of the few Labour seats in a sea of
:08:32. > :08:36.Conservative seats in what in McLeod used to call the deep South, he did
:08:37. > :08:40.that for a reason, but isn't your Brighton and Hove Labour party a bit
:08:41. > :08:45.of a basket case? There have been examples of abusive behaviour, in
:08:46. > :08:50.ballot, the NEC suspended it in July, it is a bit of a mess. When I
:08:51. > :08:54.go out campaigning, which is every weekend, I have a massive team
:08:55. > :08:58.around me, I am part of an incredible movement in Brighton and
:08:59. > :09:01.Hove, and the vast majority of people in the Labour Party in
:09:02. > :09:04.Brighton and nationwide want to do the right thing, they care about
:09:05. > :09:09.social values and delivering it. We just have to win the argument but we
:09:10. > :09:11.have to be more electable and Jeremy is not showing the calibre of
:09:12. > :09:26.leadership that the official opposition needs, the
:09:27. > :09:29.Labour Party needs, and the country needs to look to if we are going to
:09:30. > :09:32.make the leap from opposition into power. Thank you for being with us
:09:33. > :09:34.this morning. Later in the programme we hope to be joined by James
:09:35. > :09:39.Schneider of Momentum. Allen, how typical is this
:09:40. > :09:44.situation? Are a number of Labour MPs now going to face deselection
:09:45. > :09:47.challenges? I think lots of people in the PLP are worried, more of them
:09:48. > :09:51.are women than men, I don't know if that is coincidence or speaks to
:09:52. > :09:55.something broader, but the boundary changes give golden opportunity for
:09:56. > :09:59.some rethinking, Jeremy Corbyn is talking about selection. The idea if
:10:00. > :10:05.you have a boundary change, if you have 40%, your steak on the seat is
:10:06. > :10:09.the same but anybody not in that situation has to play a game of
:10:10. > :10:13.musical chairs and that is seen as a good chance to reconfigure the
:10:14. > :10:17.party. It is good this is coming out into the open because we have heard
:10:18. > :10:21.for months from Jeremy Corbyn's team that this is a terrible smear but it
:10:22. > :10:24.seems to be something that people like Len McCluskey, very close to
:10:25. > :10:30.the Labour leadership, want to happen. It has been denied, but we
:10:31. > :10:34.had Len McCluskey now saying he is up for the changes, particularly for
:10:35. > :10:41.people who have been very rude about Mr Corbyn, Clive Lewis talking it --
:10:42. > :10:44.calling it democratic selection, Momentum, as we have seen from the
:10:45. > :10:50.film, clearly organising to move in on a number of MPs, it is going to
:10:51. > :10:55.happen? Yes, I think it is, the phrase Clive Lewis used this morning
:10:56. > :11:01.is a natural churn, are turn of phrase which suggest the label --
:11:02. > :11:05.upheaval. People are saying that Jeremy Corbyn will reach out to all
:11:06. > :11:09.of these people, ask what he has done wrong and bring everybody back
:11:10. > :11:14.together. The people on the other side think that is a chance to line
:11:15. > :11:17.up loyalty pledges. Meanwhile we hear this morning in the newspapers
:11:18. > :11:21.that Corbyn and the people around him had a meeting in a country house
:11:22. > :11:25.a month ago in which they are not just planning to go after MPs but
:11:26. > :11:28.also the leadership of the Labour Party itself in terms of the
:11:29. > :11:32.staffing, the Management, the general secretary is for the high
:11:33. > :11:36.jump, we hear, and the guy they are thinking of lining up for that is
:11:37. > :11:44.one of Mr Paloschi -- Len McCluskey's friends at Unite, you
:11:45. > :11:48.cannot imagine they would put too many barriers in his way. That
:11:49. > :11:51.appears to be what is going on behind the scenes. At every single
:11:52. > :11:56.stage where the moderates say this is the worst thing that could
:11:57. > :12:01.happen, the Corbynistas said, oh, no, it isn't, and you find out
:12:02. > :12:05.something worse is going on. If Mr Corbyn is re-elected comfortably,
:12:06. > :12:12.perhaps by even more of a majority than he was last time, isn't it only
:12:13. > :12:19.natural that they should then work for the MPs to reflect more the
:12:20. > :12:24.views of the new membership? One of the interesting aspects of what is
:12:25. > :12:28.going on it it seems to be the new MPs like Peter Kyle who we have just
:12:29. > :12:32.had on who were under so much threat here, and the reason is because they
:12:33. > :12:36.have not got that hinterland with their party association, they have
:12:37. > :12:41.not built up that long-term trust. One of the things that is furious
:12:42. > :12:46.about this party leadership contest is that normally once a leadership
:12:47. > :12:48.contest is over, it is a cue for a period of stability and calm, it
:12:49. > :13:17.brings things to ahead everybody settles down and
:13:18. > :13:19.falls into line. I think the opposite will happen here. There is
:13:20. > :13:22.absolutely no sign that Jeremy Corbyn's return, as we expect to
:13:23. > :13:25.happen, to the leadership will in some ways take the steam out of this
:13:26. > :13:27.thing. They do have a plan, I think, at the moment, to give the
:13:28. > :13:30.Parliamentary party some more power over the selection of the Shadow
:13:31. > :13:33.Cabinet, and that could be a way of trying to work together better, but
:13:34. > :13:34.I can't see it working. We will talk more about this later. Let's move on
:13:35. > :13:36.to the Conservatives. Theresa May insists her Government
:13:37. > :13:38.will be markedly different from David Cameron's,
:13:39. > :13:40.but doesn't appear to want an early general election
:13:41. > :13:43.to provide her with a new mandate. So, does that mean she'll stick
:13:44. > :13:45.by everything in Conservatives' We've been busy crawling
:13:46. > :13:48.through the promises made by David Cameron,
:13:49. > :13:50.and updated our Manifesto Tracker to check which policies are being
:13:51. > :13:53.pursued and which have been ditched. It's been an eventful
:13:54. > :13:56.period since we launched Britain has voted to leave
:13:57. > :14:00.the EU and a new Prime Minister is in place,
:14:01. > :14:02.but the Conservative Government under Theresa May will still be held
:14:03. > :14:05.to the promises it made ahead of the 2015 general election
:14:06. > :14:08.in their manifesto, and a few other big commitments made
:14:09. > :14:09.during the campaign. And this is how we are keeping
:14:10. > :14:13.track of their progress. We have identified 161 pledges
:14:14. > :14:15.and loaded them into We grouped them into categories
:14:16. > :14:21.covering all the major areas of Government policy,
:14:22. > :14:24.from the constitution And we have given each
:14:25. > :14:31.of the promises a colour rating. Red means little or no
:14:32. > :14:35.progress so far. Amber means the Government
:14:36. > :14:40.has made some progress. While green is for delivered
:14:41. > :14:43.pledges. Let's start by looking at one
:14:44. > :14:46.here in foreign affairs and defence, The promise to hold a referendum
:14:47. > :14:59.on our EU membership. We have changed that to green,
:15:00. > :15:01.as the Government did deliver in June, even if it didn't get
:15:02. > :15:04.the result it wanted. Many of the promises made
:15:05. > :15:06.while David Cameron was leader were based around what he hoped
:15:07. > :15:09.he could achieve in his renegotiation of our relationship
:15:10. > :15:12.with the EU, particularly The manifesto said that EU migrants
:15:13. > :15:21.who want to claim tax credits and child benefits must
:15:22. > :15:23.live here and contribute The deal offered to David Cameron
:15:24. > :15:31.by the rest of the EU was a much weaker version of the pledge,
:15:32. > :15:33.which, like the rest of the renegotiation,
:15:34. > :15:36.was rejected by the voters So we have given this a red,
:15:37. > :15:44.although it is possible the Government could deliver on it
:15:45. > :15:49.once we have left the EU. The same goes for the promise that
:15:50. > :15:52.if a child of an EU migrant is living abroad, they should
:15:53. > :15:56.receive no child benefit David Cameron's renegotiation failed
:15:57. > :16:02.to secure this policy in full and it would be up
:16:03. > :16:05.to Theresa May's Government if it The vote to leave has had big
:16:06. > :16:13.implications for manifesto commitments in other areas,
:16:14. > :16:18.like here in the economy. One of the central promises
:16:19. > :16:21.made by David Cameron and George Osborne was this one,
:16:22. > :16:24.to eliminate the deficit and start But after the Brexit vote,
:16:25. > :16:32.Theresa May confirmed that while the Government aims
:16:33. > :16:36.to achieve a budget surplus, it has dropped the target
:16:37. > :16:43.of doing so by the end Now, those are some areas
:16:44. > :16:49.where the Government has made little Well, it fought a major battle
:16:50. > :16:56.in Parliament to tighten the rules This promise, which said strike
:16:57. > :17:03.action can only be called when at least half the eligible
:17:04. > :17:06.workforce have voted, is now law, As does this one, meaning that
:17:07. > :17:12.strikes affecting essential public services like health,
:17:13. > :17:13.education, fire and transport, will need the backing of at least
:17:14. > :17:24.40% of those eligible to vote. We have marked the majority
:17:25. > :17:26.of policies as amber, meaning at least some progress
:17:27. > :17:31.is being made. Here in welfare, for example,
:17:32. > :17:34.we have got the Government's flagship reform, universal credit,
:17:35. > :17:37.which has been rolled out for some job-seekers,
:17:38. > :17:40.although the timetable for full delivery has been pushed back
:17:41. > :17:42.repeatedly and is currently And another here,
:17:43. > :17:52.under the environment. That's the promise to create
:17:53. > :17:54.a so-called bluebelt of protected conservation zones in the water
:17:55. > :18:00.around the UK's coast. That has been given amber,
:18:01. > :18:02.as the programme still Now let's see how the Government
:18:03. > :18:08.is doing overall. Out of 161 election commitments,
:18:09. > :18:11.the number of commitments we have The number marked amber falls to 90,
:18:12. > :18:21.and the number of green or delivered We will be returning
:18:22. > :18:27.to the Manifesto Tracker again, but in the meantime you can find
:18:28. > :18:31.all of the data on the politics And you can see the full details
:18:32. > :18:38.of our Manifesto Tracker on the BBC website -
:18:39. > :18:50.that's bbc.co.uk/news. I'm joined by the Conservative
:18:51. > :18:52.Cabinet minister, the leader of the House of Commons,
:18:53. > :19:00.David Lidington. Your biggest manifesto fail to date
:19:01. > :19:08.is immigration, how are you ever going to get net migration below
:19:09. > :19:11.100,000? A number of different measures and clearly the nature of
:19:12. > :19:15.the renegotiation now as we leave the European Union will have a very
:19:16. > :19:20.important bearing on that, but one thing the Prime Minister set out
:19:21. > :19:24.very clearly is that we remain committed to getting the reduction
:19:25. > :19:28.in net migration that she has talked about consistently, but there's no
:19:29. > :19:32.quick fixes. People come to this country through a number of
:19:33. > :19:37.different routes, son to marry citizens, some for work reasons,
:19:38. > :19:41.some for asylum claims, some of the study, and we have got to look at
:19:42. > :19:44.each of those and work out how we can make sure the numbers are
:19:45. > :19:48.managed and controlled in the way people would expect. But you have
:19:49. > :19:53.been in power for six years and you have been in control of non-EU
:19:54. > :20:00.migration for six years, and it is still running at 190,000 net per
:20:01. > :20:06.year, even on the part of migration you are on complete control, you are
:20:07. > :20:09.nowhere near the 100,000 target. Why? Because in part our economy has
:20:10. > :20:17.been very sexual and other universities have been successful in
:20:18. > :20:23.attracting people to come here. We need to make sure that people, when
:20:24. > :20:27.they come here legitimately, to do a university course or take out a work
:20:28. > :20:32.permit opportunity for a limited period of time, do actually return
:20:33. > :20:36.home after they have completed that time they are permitted here, that
:20:37. > :20:46.we, as we have done, cut the number of bonus colleges... 190,000 net per
:20:47. > :20:53.year of non-EU, and you didn't say we will cut it to 100,000 unless we
:20:54. > :20:58.run the economy well. There were no ifs, no buts, was David Cameron's
:20:59. > :21:03.exact phrase. Can we get some honesty here, this whole project is
:21:04. > :21:09.Mission impossible. The meteor manifesto pledge, you would have to
:21:10. > :21:17.cut EU migration to below 50000 and non-EU migration to below 50,000.
:21:18. > :21:22.It's not going to happen, is it? We are committed to the ambitions, the
:21:23. > :21:30.object of the Prime Minister has set out. I think the public accepts that
:21:31. > :21:35.people who come here bona fides as tourists, workers to fill a skills
:21:36. > :21:40.gap we have got, that's fine but they expect people then to go back
:21:41. > :21:44.after their term here. And they also expect, which we are doing, to make
:21:45. > :21:47.sure school leavers have the opportunity to be trained so they
:21:48. > :21:53.can take the jobs that are available. They expect you to meet
:21:54. > :21:58.the promise you have made twice. He made it in the 2010 manifesto and
:21:59. > :22:02.again in the 2015 manifesto. I think many people watching this will say,
:22:03. > :22:09.why do you repeat a pledge you know you cannot keep? I don't agree it
:22:10. > :22:14.cannot be kept, but what I have said to you is that this is a complex
:22:15. > :22:20.challenge. There are no quick fixes to this, this is something Theresa
:22:21. > :22:26.May has repeatedly said. But just as we have introduced restrictions on
:22:27. > :22:29.access to benefits that we have introduced a requirement for people
:22:30. > :22:33.coming to marry a British citizen to speak English and reach a certain
:22:34. > :22:38.standard before they come here, we need to look at that level of detail
:22:39. > :22:44.at each of the tracks that people used to come here. Net migration is
:22:45. > :22:48.running at three times your target. In the manifesto you said you would
:22:49. > :22:52.insist EU migrants would need to live and work here for four years
:22:53. > :22:57.before they could claim welfare benefits. The EU said no. Now we are
:22:58. > :23:03.leaving the EU, is that the minimum we will insist on? Clearly anything
:23:04. > :23:11.to do with EU citizens already here and prospective inward migration by
:23:12. > :23:21.EU citizens or British citizens to other EU countries is part of the
:23:22. > :23:25.negotiation. Is that still a pledge? That specific pledge was part of the
:23:26. > :23:29.last manifesto, it was actually delivered in a number of different
:23:30. > :23:36.ways through the restrictions that we did place upon, and are still in
:23:37. > :23:41.force, on EU migrants coming here seeking work and getting access to
:23:42. > :23:45.out of work benefits. The big issue at the renegotiation David Cameron
:23:46. > :23:51.lead was access to tax credits and in work benefits. He came to a deal
:23:52. > :23:55.on that which limited it, but that failed after the referendum. It
:23:56. > :24:00.wasn't that you don't get anything unless you have been here for four
:24:01. > :24:07.years, your manifesto also promised the required EU job seekers to leave
:24:08. > :24:11.if they haven't found a job within six months. Will that be fulfilled
:24:12. > :24:24.pledge in this Parliament? That is already a policy we have taken. How
:24:25. > :24:32.many EU citizens have you removed? I think we can agree to close the
:24:33. > :24:40.norm. You have not kept that pledge, EU job seekers are here, aren't
:24:41. > :24:43.they? That is one very important part of the exit negotiation is now
:24:44. > :24:47.under way, but it wouldn't be sensible to give a running
:24:48. > :24:51.commentary on the detail of that. Post Brexit, it would be reasonable
:24:52. > :24:56.to think EU migrants still coming here would be regarded more
:24:57. > :25:01.favourable than non-EU migrants? We were part of the club for 40 years.
:25:02. > :25:07.What they get more favourable treatment if they were EU citizens?
:25:08. > :25:10.That is speculation about what comes out of the negotiation, and we will
:25:11. > :25:15.go into that with a range of objectives, both in terms of control
:25:16. > :25:19.over migration by EU citizens, which I think is what British people
:25:20. > :25:22.expected when they voted as they did, but also with the objective of
:25:23. > :25:28.getting the best possible outcome for British business. On tax and
:25:29. > :25:34.spend, one of the key promises in the manifesto was to move to fiscal
:25:35. > :25:41.surplus from fiscal deficit by the end of the decade, do you still
:25:42. > :25:47.intend to keep that? The PM said she remains committed, but not by the
:25:48. > :25:51.end of the parliament. When you look at the fact there is uncertainty in
:25:52. > :25:55.the world economy, clearly some uncertainty in the aftermath of the
:25:56. > :26:00.referendum outcome, that was a sensible, pragmatic decision to
:26:01. > :26:09.take. So do we have an idea of when the target of surplus will be? The
:26:10. > :26:15.Chancellor will give his Autumn Statement in the next few weeks, and
:26:16. > :26:22.will set out the Government's plan. The pledge to start a move towards
:26:23. > :26:27.surplus in the 2018/19 manifesto, it said we are set to move into surplus
:26:28. > :26:39.of them, that is now off the cards? We are committed to it, but not with
:26:40. > :26:43.that timing. When you set out to a destination, if the traffic
:26:44. > :26:47.conditions say you should take different route, that's what you do.
:26:48. > :26:52.But we don't know if Brexit will be as dire as people like you
:26:53. > :26:56.predicted, so until we do know that, why ditch the planned to head the
:26:57. > :27:02.surplus that you promised the British people? Because there is
:27:03. > :27:05.uncertainty in the world economy. It seems sensible to make that
:27:06. > :27:10.adjustment, but the destination still remains. You have no evidence
:27:11. > :27:18.anything has changed. You work on the basis of evidence remains but
:27:19. > :27:24.Philip will be working on these details in the Autumn Statement
:27:25. > :27:31.shortly. Will Theresa May's ferment continued to implement the 2015
:27:32. > :27:35.manifesto? Is she committed to it in its entirety as much as David
:27:36. > :27:39.Cameron? Yes, she was very clear out her first cabinet meeting that she
:27:40. > :27:45.wanted every departmental minister to go back to the manifesto on which
:27:46. > :27:49.we were elected with a majority, and to ensure that we were delivering on
:27:50. > :27:55.those objectives. I think your tracker is a good idea. Just not
:27:56. > :28:00.when it comes to the surplus or immigration? One point of the
:28:01. > :28:05.tracker is that it enables you and the public to see where we are
:28:06. > :28:09.making progress, as we are for example on getting more poorer
:28:10. > :28:12.people out of tax and into work and so on, and where we have taken the
:28:13. > :28:17.decision to alter the course of it. I'm glad you think the tracker is a
:28:18. > :28:21.good idea. Come back in the future and we will talk more about it.
:28:22. > :28:23.She says Ukip is the official opposition in waiting.
:28:24. > :28:25.But how can Ukip's new leader, Diane James, stop the infighting
:28:26. > :28:27.and factionalism that's threatened to destroy the party's
:28:28. > :28:31.And what's the point of Ukip now that the UK
:28:32. > :28:34.Diane James joins me live in just a moment.
:28:35. > :28:36.First, Ellie Price reports from Ukip's party conference
:28:37. > :28:39.in Bournemouth, where the new leader moved swiftly to put her stamp
:28:40. > :28:45.It is an absolute pleasure to announce, with 8451 votes,
:28:46. > :28:52.the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane James!
:28:53. > :28:54.There you have it, the biggest non-surprise
:28:55. > :28:56.in politics in years - Diane James is the
:28:57. > :29:00.She's been the frontrunner in this election campaign all summer.
:29:01. > :29:03.Of course, the challenge now is going to be convincing this lot
:29:04. > :29:21.What I will be doing is stepping into his leadership shoes,
:29:22. > :29:25.but I will be doing everything to achieve the political success
:29:26. > :29:29.that he's handing over to me and to you.
:29:30. > :29:34.But, as the new leader, Diane James knows she has big shoes to fill.
:29:35. > :29:37.Nigel's a great almost wartime leader, he said that
:29:38. > :29:40.during his speech, and I think Diane's a different kind of leader.
:29:41. > :29:45.There's talk of war, there's talk of peace times,
:29:46. > :29:48.but unfortunately there aren't peace times within Ukip at the moment.
:29:49. > :29:50.I think this pretty much settles the issue.
:29:51. > :29:52.Diane is strong on these sorts of issues.
:29:53. > :29:57.In many ways, Nigel was slightly weak, actually.
:29:58. > :30:00.There's really only about four or five people who cause trouble
:30:01. > :30:04.in Ukip, and I'm pretty sure that's the end of the story.
:30:05. > :30:08.But just before a live interview with Ukip's Steven Woolfe,
:30:09. > :30:11.I was literally caught in the middle of what you could describe
:30:12. > :30:23.You've seen and heard what was said in the media, and so...
:30:24. > :30:28.The reason for Neil Hamilton's anger?
:30:29. > :30:30.Diane James had rewritten the next day's conference schedule
:30:31. > :30:38.It certainly seems like a quixotic decision from somebody who an hour
:30:39. > :30:40.or two ago was talking about the need for party unity.
:30:41. > :30:45.He was replaced by his rival in Welsh Ukip.
:30:46. > :30:48.You said to me the other day there would be a bloodbath,
:30:49. > :30:54.Is this the beginning of the bloodbath?
:30:55. > :30:56.I think it's the beginning of Diane putting her foot down,
:30:57. > :30:59.showing that she is the leader, and that she wants the rest
:31:00. > :31:02.of the conference to go the way that she wants it to go.
:31:03. > :31:05.We're fine, just wondering who you are?
:31:06. > :31:08.That's Douglas Carswell, by the way, the party's only MP.
:31:09. > :31:10.The now ex-leader thinks he knows exactly who he is,
:31:11. > :31:15.and was using his new-found freedom to explain.
:31:16. > :31:17.During the referendum campaign, he's really done all he can
:31:18. > :31:25.But the new leader was there, symbolically, to greet him.
:31:26. > :31:26.Damaging comments from Mr Farage this morning,
:31:27. > :31:31.Lots of people in politics say all sorts of things.
:31:32. > :31:35.Diane James was also more than happy to share
:31:36. > :31:37.Diane, I give you 110% of my support.
:31:38. > :31:51.This conference ends on a conciliatory note,
:31:52. > :31:54.and there are signs this party is already moving
:31:55. > :32:05.And we've been joined by the new leader of Ukip, Diane James.
:32:06. > :32:21.Good morning, thank you. What is the point of Ukip? We are the only party
:32:22. > :32:25.100% committed to Brexit, we have a Tory Government that is still split,
:32:26. > :32:29.a Labour Party that has no idea which direction it is going in. You
:32:30. > :32:33.have what is left of the Liberal Democrats relying on their voice in
:32:34. > :32:36.Europe, their single voice in Europe, to get their message across,
:32:37. > :32:40.and we are the one party that will stand up for the over 17 million
:32:41. > :32:54.people that wanted to leave the European Union, simple. Except that
:32:55. > :32:57.you are dysfunctional? No, we are embarking on a brand-new era, as I
:32:58. > :33:00.said on a conference. I know you will pick up on the changes I made
:33:01. > :33:02.to the programme but the new leader has the prerogative to do that. I
:33:03. > :33:04.understand that, and leaders should lead, but Paul Nuttall, the outgoing
:33:05. > :33:08.deputy leader, has spoken of a cancer at the heart of the party
:33:09. > :33:13.that has led to leading light using Ukip as a football. You have huge
:33:14. > :33:18.problems in Wales, its huge problems with the NEC, an issue with Nathan
:33:19. > :33:23.Gill, with many favoured candidates who ended up not standing, senior
:33:24. > :33:28.colleagues falling out, membership and funding declining, which bit of
:33:29. > :33:31.that is not dysfunctional? Thank you for reminding me of the issues I
:33:32. > :33:37.have got to tackle over the next few weeks. I made it clear in my events
:33:38. > :33:40.around the country that I would have a 100 day plan, focusing on
:33:41. > :33:45.precisely the sort of issues you have outlined. I don't agree with
:33:46. > :33:49.one of them, by any means, but in 100 days I hope to be able to show
:33:50. > :33:53.that we are turning a corner and that we are embarking on a new era.
:33:54. > :33:59.You claim you will be the real opposition to Government but you
:34:00. > :34:04.only have one semidetached MP in Westminster, it is delusional? No,
:34:05. > :34:07.it is not, look where we are at this point, potentially four
:34:08. > :34:13.by-elections, we said we would not stand in one out of respect to Jo
:34:14. > :34:16.Cox but three others, look at those by-elections in the context of the
:34:17. > :34:22.dysfunctional position Labour is in, and we are ripe to take those seats.
:34:23. > :34:26.Do you accept your only MP, Douglas Carswell, is pretty semidetached at
:34:27. > :34:30.best? I would not call him semidetached, I heard the speech he
:34:31. > :34:33.gave at the conference, the endorsement he gave me and the
:34:34. > :34:37.endorsement he has given subsequently, and I see him as being
:34:38. > :34:41.a member of the Ukip team going forward. You have asked to move a
:34:42. > :34:48.Private members Bill to invoke article 50, has he agreed? He stated
:34:49. > :34:53.he would do his level best. That is not the same as agreeing. He made
:34:54. > :34:56.the point that there is another option, to repeal the European
:34:57. > :34:59.communities act and instigate a debate on that. We have an
:35:00. > :35:02.individual prepared to launch a two pronged attack in the House of
:35:03. > :35:11.Commons and forced Theresa May into doing something. A two pronged
:35:12. > :35:15.one-man attack. He told me on Friday that Ukip should be, quote, a
:35:16. > :35:21.free-market Libertarian party. If that your vision? If I can remind
:35:22. > :35:25.you, from my speech, my vision is probably slightly different words,
:35:26. > :35:28.it is global, positive, outward looking, enterprise building and
:35:29. > :35:36.making this country great again outside of the EU control. But if it
:35:37. > :35:41.free-market and libertarian? That is his vision, I am trying to work out
:35:42. > :35:46.the vision -- if the vision of your only MP is the same as the new
:35:47. > :35:51.leader? OK, I will say it is the same. So you are free-market and
:35:52. > :35:55.libertarianism? Yes, we are about enterprise Britain... Given the
:35:56. > :36:00.leadership campaign was a policy free zone, what will be the most
:36:01. > :36:05.distinctive policies Ukip will stand for under Diane James? Certainly the
:36:06. > :36:10.issue of migration and immigration, certainly the issue of defence,
:36:11. > :36:17.giving us back the ability to defend this country... These are existing
:36:18. > :36:20.policies? No, these need a major refresh out of EU control. The
:36:21. > :36:24.aspect of Homeland Security, the aspect we have not got a functioning
:36:25. > :36:32.Border Force, we have not got a functioning passport control system,
:36:33. > :36:35.we have even got a Home Secretary continuing the project via aspect of
:36:36. > :36:40.a beaver charge for people going into Europe or coming to the UK.
:36:41. > :36:47.Absolutely bizarre. I am just trying to find out what the policies will
:36:48. > :36:51.be. The major one for me, given my background, the state that the NHS
:36:52. > :36:55.is in, and if we can show a very clear vision and stand up to what
:36:56. > :36:59.Jeremy Hunt is doing in terms of decimating the NHS, I will be
:37:00. > :37:12.delighted. You will agree that is not a policy but an attitude...
:37:13. > :37:16.It is a policy in terms of the NHS. We don't know about the policy
:37:17. > :37:18.because you refused to debate with other candidates during the
:37:19. > :37:21.leadership campaign and campaigned on a no policy platform, white? I
:37:22. > :37:24.launched my own series of national events, nationwide, and I gave
:37:25. > :37:28.members and activists, and, in fact, the press, the media, anybody who
:37:29. > :37:34.wanted to come along, there was not a bar in terms of membership only,
:37:35. > :37:38.to come along and interact with me for two hours. That gave
:37:39. > :37:42.individuals, all of the members in the audience, a solid two hours to
:37:43. > :37:45.scrutinise what I had to say. That was a much higher quality programme
:37:46. > :37:51.that anything hustings would have given. But why not debate with your
:37:52. > :37:54.rivals? Because there was no need, we were not fighting a general
:37:55. > :37:58.election, we were fighting, if you wish to use the phrase, to elect the
:37:59. > :38:02.new leader of Ukip, and I chose to go direct to the members, to
:38:03. > :38:06.interact with them directly and give them quality time with me and
:38:07. > :38:11.respond to all of their questions. Many think Ukip's best chance is to
:38:12. > :38:15.win over disaffected working-class Labour voters in the north, so how
:38:16. > :38:23.does the epitome of the Home Counties bourgeoisie do that? You
:38:24. > :38:27.tell me! It is not my job. I have never heard such convoluted
:38:28. > :38:31.language! Can you simplify that so we know what you are talking about?
:38:32. > :38:35.There have been a number of leaders your party could have chosen, Paul
:38:36. > :38:41.Nuttall, Steven Woolfe, who would have had a clear, more distinct
:38:42. > :38:48.appeal to the north. Paul Michael chose not to stand. You need to ask
:38:49. > :38:54.him his reason. I'm just asking how you will appeal to the North. Steven
:38:55. > :38:57.Woolfe, a superb colleague of mine, regretfully there were issues in
:38:58. > :39:01.terms of getting his information in in time. The point I have made
:39:02. > :39:05.throughout my programme of events is that I want to have two chiefs of
:39:06. > :39:09.staff, people who will ably assist me in developing our programme, our
:39:10. > :39:14.policies, our strategy is to appeal both to the north and also the
:39:15. > :39:19.south. What will you do about Wales, where Ukip seems to be involved in
:39:20. > :39:31.civil war? I will ask Neil Hamilton to focus on Welsh Assembly, on
:39:32. > :39:34.winning the elections in Wales, and I will ask Nathan to continue doing
:39:35. > :39:36.a superb job he does in terms of representing Wales in the European
:39:37. > :39:39.Union and Parliament, and in the voting in Strasbourg. So you will
:39:40. > :39:44.have two Kings? No, Nathan has my complete and utter support, he has
:39:45. > :39:46.had a huge legacy in terms of his membership, a huge wealth of
:39:47. > :39:51.knowledge in terms of the issues facing Wales if Mrs May does not
:39:52. > :39:58.action about to leave the European Union. He has got my full support.
:39:59. > :40:04.Neil, I am asking you, step up to the plate, but focus on Wales and
:40:05. > :40:09.the assembly. One of your party's main funders was an errant banks, in
:40:10. > :40:16.the process of turning leave. EU into a momentum of the right, to
:40:17. > :40:27.mirror the Jeremy Corbyn movement on the left, do you have a problem with
:40:28. > :40:31.that? I have just been elected head of a political party. If he wishes
:40:32. > :40:35.to support a political movement, that is his decision. Other than
:40:36. > :40:40.Vladimir Putin, who is your main political hero? Certainly not Donald
:40:41. > :40:46.Trump or Hillary Clinton. I did not ask who was not, who is? I cannot
:40:47. > :40:50.think of anybody apart from Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill.
:40:51. > :40:55.Putin, Churchill and Thatcher. We hope to see you again. Thank you.
:40:56. > :40:57.It's just gone 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:58. > :41:06.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:41:07. > :41:10.Hello and welcome back to the Sunday Politics Wales,
:41:11. > :41:12.as we mount the political rollercoaster for more
:41:13. > :41:16.On today's programme: Diane James has only just taken over
:41:17. > :41:20.at Ukip, but the arguments have already started.
:41:21. > :41:25.And as the Labour leadership contest enters its final furlong,
:41:26. > :41:33.will the party unite around the winner?
:41:34. > :41:35.But first, we couldn't open a new series without mentioning Brexit,
:41:36. > :41:38.and one of Theresa May's Cabinet has told this programme the final
:41:39. > :41:41.decision will be made in Westminster not in Wales.
:41:42. > :41:43.Alun Cairns was speaking after the First Minister said
:41:44. > :41:47.all the devolved assemblies should have to ratify the deal.
:41:48. > :41:51.So could there be a Brexit without Wexit?
:41:52. > :41:53.It's going to be a long journey, so we sent
:41:54. > :41:58.Setting off on a journey to the unknown.
:41:59. > :42:04.But the path to the summit is far from well trodden.
:42:05. > :42:11.On his summer trekking holiday in the Swiss Alps wrecks it
:42:12. > :42:19.On her summer holiday in the Alps Brexit
:42:20. > :42:23.The task of navigating the country's departure from the European Union
:42:24. > :42:25.is unprecedented in both scope and complexity.
:42:26. > :42:27.Now, the UK Government is keeping its cards
:42:28. > :42:31.But it is in the process of plotting its Brexit route.
:42:32. > :42:33.So how does Wales ensure that it isn't left behind?
:42:34. > :42:36.Visiting Cardiff back in July the Prime Minister had plenty
:42:37. > :42:37.of warm words for the Welsh government.
:42:38. > :42:40.I want the Welsh government to be involved, engaged in
:42:41. > :42:44.But, on his own trip to the USA last week the First Minister had
:42:45. > :42:47.a warning, without access to the single market and protection
:42:48. > :42:52.for the rights of citizens from EU countries, Wales would be
:42:53. > :42:56.unlikely to give its consent to the Brexit deal.
:42:57. > :43:00.What I have said is that all four countries should ratify,
:43:01. > :43:03.should agree, the deal the UK Government comes true.
:43:04. > :43:06.It wouldn't be right for the UK Government to negotiate in terms
:43:07. > :43:09.of farming and fisheries, when they have no role in farming
:43:10. > :43:12.and fisheries in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
:43:13. > :43:15.A lack of consent would undoubtedly be politically difficult
:43:16. > :43:21.But her government is in no doubt as to who will be making
:43:22. > :43:24.Ultimately, it will be the cabinet that will make the decision,
:43:25. > :43:27.and ultimately, it's the Prime Minister.
:43:28. > :43:32.The Prime Minister has tasked me to look after Wales's interests.
:43:33. > :43:35.We will come to a view that serves the whole of the United Kingdom.
:43:36. > :43:41.It's my job to make sure that Wales is the centre of those discussions.
:43:42. > :43:44.Involved and engaged, central to the discussion.
:43:45. > :43:50.Both governments are using positive words about the role Wales will play
:43:51. > :43:56.As empty and meaningless as the phrase 'Brexit means
:43:57. > :44:01.Pointing the finger, the opposition parties
:44:02. > :44:03.in Cardiff Bay say it's action that is needed from the Welsh
:44:04. > :44:08.So what has Carwyn Jones's government done?
:44:09. > :44:10.Well, there's a new Cabinet subcommittee chaired
:44:11. > :44:17.A dedicated team of civil servants and, the end of the month,
:44:18. > :44:21.a Brexit external advisory group will meet for the first time.
:44:22. > :44:25.But they will be no new Brexit secretary or department.
:44:26. > :44:29.The opposition also wants more clarity from the First Minister has
:44:30. > :44:34.changed his position on the timing of Brexit negotiations.
:44:35. > :44:37.And cause confusion about his stance on the single market.
:44:38. > :44:40.A matter of semantics, say government officials.
:44:41. > :44:42.But, ultimately, there's the serious question of how much political
:44:43. > :44:46.leverage politicians in Cardiff, and indeed,
:44:47. > :44:50.right across Wales, will have in these Brexit discussions.
:44:51. > :44:52.After all, in Scotland the independence question
:44:53. > :44:57.Then in Northern Ireland there is the headache of finding
:44:58. > :45:00.an acceptable solution to the border issue.
:45:01. > :45:04.Also, whereas those devolved nations voted to remain
:45:05. > :45:07.in the European Union Wales backed Brexit.
:45:08. > :45:09.Wales's interests, in some ways, are overlapped with those
:45:10. > :45:13.of Scotland and so as far as it being marginalised I think if Wales
:45:14. > :45:23.and the Wales political actions look to correspond to those interests
:45:24. > :45:28.then there is hope that they won't be that marginalisation.
:45:29. > :45:30.We've only just started on this journey.
:45:31. > :45:33.These are the first tentative steps in what is going
:45:34. > :45:42.Well, after that vote to leave the EU in June you'd think Ukip
:45:43. > :45:46.would be in celebration mode for their conference in Bournemouth.
:45:47. > :45:50.Diane James has taken over as the party leader,
:45:51. > :45:53.but over the Summer its former leader in Wales parted company
:45:54. > :46:01.Neil Hamilton leads that group and is here now.
:46:02. > :46:11.thank you for coming in. Let's start with what we've just heard on the
:46:12. > :46:16.network programme. Diane James was saying she wants you to step up to
:46:17. > :46:21.focus on Wales and the Assembly. Those are her words. What do you
:46:22. > :46:26.make of that? She obviously hasn't been watching
:46:27. > :46:30.the televised debates from the Assembly week in week out since the
:46:31. > :46:37.5th of May. That's what I've been doing in Cardiff four days a week,
:46:38. > :46:42.concentrating as might job as an AM. As the leader of the group buying
:46:43. > :46:47.the centrepiece of that. We've had debates, we had won an Brexit last
:46:48. > :46:50.week that we initiated. I ask questions of Carwyn Jones every
:46:51. > :46:55.Tuesday. I guess that the perception might be
:46:56. > :47:00.that you don't get on with Nathan Gill, she's given 100% support him.
:47:01. > :47:07.She says she trusts him implicitly. She didn't offer the same level of
:47:08. > :47:11.support to you. Is that a concern? Obviously, I want to get on with the
:47:12. > :47:16.leader of my party. I give her 100% support as the elected leader of the
:47:17. > :47:22.party. I've known her for five years and she's been in Ukip. The problem
:47:23. > :47:26.with Nathan Gill is that he's doing two jobs. MEP and AM.
:47:27. > :47:31.She says concentrate on my job in Cardiff, that's what I'm doing. His
:47:32. > :47:36.problem is that he can't. He can't be in two places at once.
:47:37. > :47:40.That is what this dispute is about. This has come to dominate the
:47:41. > :47:43.headlines for Ukip in Wales because of the clandestine briefing which is
:47:44. > :47:48.going on. It's not coming from me. That's a
:47:49. > :47:54.problem with a split in the party. We heard from Alex Phillips, a
:47:55. > :47:58.former press officer to the party saying that whenever bombs go off in
:47:59. > :48:04.the party you're always there, as a Machiavellian character...
:48:05. > :48:08.She also said I was a Rasputin character. Let's have the full
:48:09. > :48:13.story. From what Diane James says today,
:48:14. > :48:16.when she asked you to consider just on the Assembly she's suggesting
:48:17. > :48:20.you've been trying to have your finger in things on a UK level is
:48:21. > :48:24.that right? That is absolutely not true. The
:48:25. > :48:30.focus of my attention has been here in Cardiff and in my region of West
:48:31. > :48:36.Wales which takes me up to the clean peninsula. Let's look at Alex
:48:37. > :48:40.Phillips. She was a member of the Conservatives but is implied by
:48:41. > :48:44.Nathan Gill to attack the leader of the Ukip group in the Assembly and
:48:45. > :48:46.vulgar terms. This is an intolerable situation and can't be allowed to
:48:47. > :48:51.continue. She's not your to defend herself.
:48:52. > :48:57.What I want to talk about is what is next for Ukip in Wales. We've heard
:48:58. > :49:01.not a lot of detail about weird and James wants to take Ukip, you are
:49:02. > :49:04.the leader in Wales, she wants you to concentrate on Wales, what's
:49:05. > :49:08.next? We've got council elections in May
:49:09. > :49:13.next year. They are important because it's every four years...
:49:14. > :49:17.What is your pitch? What are you standing on now that you had people
:49:18. > :49:22.to leave the EU? What is the point of Ukip?
:49:23. > :49:26.We have a debate on grammar schools and technical and vocational
:49:27. > :49:29.education. We want to democratise the health service so that those who
:49:30. > :49:33.use it can make the priorities overall and not the bureaucrats.
:49:34. > :49:37.They're all sorts of things like that that women are manifested in me
:49:38. > :49:41.that if we were in government we be able to impairment.
:49:42. > :49:44.We are only six members out of 60 in the Assembly but we use our
:49:45. > :49:50.influence because we hold the balance of power because Labour
:49:51. > :49:55.doesn't have a majority. I've been pushing in such a project as well,
:49:56. > :49:58.M4 improvements and so on. And also the opportunity that Brexit gives us
:49:59. > :50:04.to support the steel industry because we will be able to put 's
:50:05. > :50:07.duties on imports under dos energy prices as well.
:50:08. > :50:11.There are lots of policies that Ukip has a unique take on.
:50:12. > :50:15.In terms of Brexit you had a debate on Wednesday in the Assembly where
:50:16. > :50:19.Plaid Cymru were talking about infrastructure and Wales development
:50:20. > :50:24.agencies. They were troubled banks and so on. But I was listening to
:50:25. > :50:29.the Ukip debate and it was far less concrete, if I can put it that. You
:50:30. > :50:33.were talking about great opportunities, freedom, positive,
:50:34. > :50:38.but nothing concrete. What are your top priorities for Brexit in Wales?
:50:39. > :50:45.We need a cultural policy specifically for Wales because Wales
:50:46. > :50:49.is very different in terms of geographical conditions to many
:50:50. > :50:54.parts of the United Kingdom. We need to get on with these introductory
:50:55. > :50:58.project that I was talking about and having the opportunity... But that
:50:59. > :51:02.is not Brexit necessarily. The case of supporting these dealings you,
:51:03. > :51:07.one of the reasons we haven't been able to reduce business rate on Port
:51:08. > :51:10.Talbot is because that is a disguised form of state aid
:51:11. > :51:13.forbidden under EU law. They are also thought Michael policies that
:51:14. > :51:17.we want to support. Hopefully we can have you on going
:51:18. > :51:19.to discuss them in future. Thank you very for coming in.
:51:20. > :51:21.Opposition parties need to work together, or the Conservatives
:51:22. > :51:24.could be in power at Westminster for a "very long time",
:51:25. > :51:27.that's the warning from the leader of the Welsh Lib Dems.
:51:28. > :51:29.Before leaving for his party conference in Brighton,
:51:30. > :51:31.David Cornock put it to Mark Williams that with only one
:51:32. > :51:34.AM and one MP, was there any point to his party any more?
:51:35. > :51:37.Of course there's a point to the Lib Dems in Wales.
:51:38. > :51:39.I think that's vindicated across the UK, including Wales,
:51:40. > :51:42.with many, many more people joining the party.
:51:43. > :51:46.I think people like what they've heard about the party's
:51:47. > :51:51.They like what they've heard about refugees.
:51:52. > :51:53.And the narrative about home rule, the narrative about education.
:51:54. > :52:00.The narrative about the environmental agenda.
:52:01. > :52:02.That's what we've got to get across to people.
:52:03. > :52:05.They like what they hear about Europe, most people have just
:52:06. > :52:08.Think they're growing number of people have joined
:52:09. > :52:10.the Liberal Democrats as a direct result of what we've said
:52:11. > :52:13.on the European issue, and as a party I think the clarity
:52:14. > :52:16.with which we've spoken on that issue has been respected
:52:17. > :52:21.I respect the verdict of the people in that referendum, of course,
:52:22. > :52:26.who am I to challenge 52% of the British people?
:52:27. > :52:28.But many people have concerns about the direction of travel.
:52:29. > :52:31.They applaud what Tim Farron has been saying, what we've
:52:32. > :52:34.You also mention that voters might your message on home rule.
:52:35. > :52:39.You are the party of home rule, but the Welsh Liberal Democrats
:52:40. > :52:44.A quirk of our Constitution, and the electoral circumstances
:52:45. > :52:48.in which the party finds itself means that the leader was either
:52:49. > :52:51.going to be the Minister of education in the National
:52:52. > :52:53.Assembly and the Government of Wales, or myself.
:52:54. > :52:56.And I'm proud to be leader of the party.
:52:57. > :52:59.I'm going to do what I can for the party in the expectation
:53:00. > :53:03.that what we are working towards is more AMs selected,
:53:04. > :53:06.and a group in the National Assembly again.
:53:07. > :53:10.I'm going to do whatever I can to achieve that.
:53:11. > :53:12.I'd like to think, having defended Ceredigion on two occasions,
:53:13. > :53:14.I'm quite equipped to help win elections.
:53:15. > :53:18.You mentioned the Minister for education in Wales,
:53:19. > :53:20.Tim Farron says that he can't really foresee going into coalition
:53:21. > :53:24.with Labour, but there you are, your predecessor,
:53:25. > :53:34.I'll just reiterate the point, your earlier question,
:53:35. > :53:37.that was a decision that was taken by a party independent,
:53:38. > :53:41.within a federal structure, the party membership at a conference
:53:42. > :53:44.and voted on the pros all that Kirsty Williams would take
:53:45. > :53:47.forward, into government, Liberal Democrat seemed,
:53:48. > :53:50.Liberal Democrat priorities on the issue of education.
:53:51. > :53:54.I think that's what she's doing very effectively.
:53:55. > :53:58.I'll be open with you, I think at this point in time,
:53:59. > :54:02.with boundary changes which massively support
:54:03. > :54:05.and encourage the Conservative Party in the future there is a case
:54:06. > :54:07.for politicians to be talking, what I would loosely describe
:54:08. > :54:12.To be talking about issues of common interest.
:54:13. > :54:18.There was a positive in the referendum, even for those
:54:19. > :54:20.of us that lost it, in that progressive politicians
:54:21. > :54:22.were working together on a really important issue.
:54:23. > :54:24.I think that dialogue should be extended in other areas
:54:25. > :54:26.and policies as well, otherwise, we have the spectre
:54:27. > :54:31.of conservatism in power in Westminster for a very long time.
:54:32. > :54:33.We speak on the eve of your conference,
:54:34. > :54:35.a big one for Tim Farron, really, because he's not
:54:36. > :54:40.Well, with respect to my friends at BBC Wales, that's a matter,
:54:41. > :54:44.in part for BBC Wales and the other media outlets.
:54:45. > :54:48.Tim Farron has been stomping up and down this country
:54:49. > :54:52.He's been to Wales on numerous occasions.
:54:53. > :54:54.I was with him going around the Royal Welsh.
:54:55. > :54:57.He had a very good response from the farming community
:54:58. > :55:00.The message is increasingly being heard.
:55:01. > :55:03.The last poll I saw in Wales did see an increase in Liberal Democrat
:55:04. > :55:16.We had a terrible election result in 2015.
:55:17. > :55:23.In fact, it was arguably worse in the Assembly elections.
:55:24. > :55:27.But, equally, there is no point dwelling on that.
:55:28. > :55:31.We've got to build the party up again.
:55:32. > :55:33.I came to the House of Commons when there
:55:34. > :55:38.I look forward to the day that we have more MPs year,
:55:39. > :55:40.more Assembly members, and leadership of many more
:55:41. > :55:42.councils across Wales in the way that we used to.
:55:43. > :55:44.That's an aspiration of recent history, it's
:55:45. > :55:47.an aspiration that we can achieve if we are enthusiastic
:55:48. > :55:54.This time next week we'll know whether the Labour Party
:55:55. > :55:58.is "continuing with Corbyn" or "swapping to Smith".
:55:59. > :56:01.Whatever happens, will the Party then unite, or will we see
:56:02. > :56:05.Jo Stevens is the MP for Cardiff Central and supports
:56:06. > :56:09.Owen Smith, while Shavanah Taj is the head of the PCS Union
:56:10. > :56:24.Thank you both for coming in this morning. Joe, to start off with, it
:56:25. > :56:28.does seem, according to the polls it seems likely that Jeremy Corbyn may
:56:29. > :56:34.win on Saturday. What happens then? How difficult will it be for whoever
:56:35. > :56:38.winds to unite the moving ahead? We'll see what happens on Saturday.
:56:39. > :56:42.Whoever winds has a huge responsibility as leader of the
:56:43. > :56:46.official opposition. That responsibility is not just to the
:56:47. > :56:50.party comments to the country as a whole. I hope that whoever winds,
:56:51. > :56:57.we'll see three things from them, the ability to create a united team
:56:58. > :57:01.to take us forward. Policies that are distinctive and credible that we
:57:02. > :57:05.can explain how we are going to pay and deliver them. And the ability to
:57:06. > :57:08.communicate those policies effectively to over 10 million
:57:09. > :57:14.people who need to vote for us to see those policies into reality.
:57:15. > :57:18.There is a responsibility on the next leader, if it is Corbyn isn't
:57:19. > :57:23.there every responsibility on you as an MP to make that work?
:57:24. > :57:27.Absolutely. But as leader you have a specific personal responsibility to
:57:28. > :57:33.a country. To do that we are going to have to do things differently to
:57:34. > :57:40.how we've done them for the last 12 months. We have to make compromises.
:57:41. > :57:43.And make changes. We have to communicate more effectively what
:57:44. > :57:46.our vision for the country is so that we can persuade people we are a
:57:47. > :57:51.government in waiting. If your guy winds, Jeremy Corbyn,
:57:52. > :57:56.wings, wouldn't that be proof that he does have the support he's always
:57:57. > :58:04.said is there so that he shouldn't be the one compromising? In order to
:58:05. > :58:09.move forward as a united party, Jeremy Corbyn has already said
:58:10. > :58:13.regardless of who gets in, we will have to make compromises. He's made
:58:14. > :58:17.it quite clear that he recognises that he could have done things
:58:18. > :58:22.better as far as communication is concerned. That is public knowledge
:58:23. > :58:26.as far as the party is concerned. I think, ultimately, our biggest fight
:58:27. > :58:30.that we have an hands at the moment is making sure that we are united
:58:31. > :58:34.and strong enough to fight the Tories who are going ahead and
:58:35. > :58:37.destroying everything that a Labour, ultimately, built in the first
:58:38. > :58:41.place. Is it helpful when you've got former
:58:42. > :58:47.leaders like Neil Kinnock, Lord Kinnock, the former Welsh MPs saying
:58:48. > :58:52.he doesn't think Labour will ever be in power in his lifetime and Jeremy
:58:53. > :58:57.Corbyn. Everyone's entitled to their own
:58:58. > :59:01.opinion. There's going to have two be lots of discussions. They'll be
:59:02. > :59:06.discussions at the party conference as well. He is entitled to his
:59:07. > :59:11.opinion, but ultimately, going forward, if it is Jeremy Corbyn who
:59:12. > :59:16.winds, and I do feel that it will be him again. There is a responsibility
:59:17. > :59:22.to unite everybody but there is also a responsibility on each of the MPs
:59:23. > :59:27.to unite behind the leader. We had good control recently we had the
:59:28. > :59:34.debate around grammar. You know, there are things we can do. We can
:59:35. > :59:40.be united and much more strong. That is what our members want. But
:59:41. > :59:44.would you, for example, you were shadow Justice Minster in the past
:59:45. > :59:54.under Jeremy Corbyn... I still am! You would continue that? You don't
:59:55. > :59:59.have any qualms? I took a decision. I didn't backed Jeromy last year and
:00:00. > :00:03.I haven't backed him this year. But whoever winds my loyalty is to the
:00:04. > :00:15.party and the leadership to make sure that we can fight the Tories.
:00:16. > :00:19.-- whoever winds. When it comes to the front bench, we've seen about
:00:20. > :00:24.electing members of the Shadow Cabinet nod from MPs but from the
:00:25. > :00:29.membership of the party is that a go? Jeremy Corbyn didn't deny it
:00:30. > :00:33.today. There will be a discussion next week in which they will be a
:00:34. > :00:37.discussion about the motion that was passed at the Parliamentary Labour
:00:38. > :00:41.Party meeting about having a proportion of the Cabinet elected by
:00:42. > :00:47.members. You can see why people think that might help to heal the
:00:48. > :00:51.rifts of the party. There is a view expressed this week that may be the
:00:52. > :00:54.membership should elect. We'll have a discussion about it and see where
:00:55. > :00:58.we go. What are your thoughts? It's
:00:59. > :01:03.difficult if you have the membership electing and why would you only have
:01:04. > :01:08.it for the PLP. Would you have it for the Cabinet and Welsh Assembly,
:01:09. > :01:11.for council cabinets? What makes it different for Parliament. There are
:01:12. > :01:16.issues and practicalities. The NEC will take a view and ultimately
:01:17. > :01:21.conference house to ratify it. You are leading me tidily to this
:01:22. > :01:30.what about Wales now, if Jeromy Corbyn winds on Saturday it seems
:01:31. > :01:36.likely, but if he does succeed on Saturday you will have a group to
:01:37. > :01:41.the right, do they need to be changes in Wales as we've seen with
:01:42. > :01:46.what's happened and the momentum of the group are?
:01:47. > :01:51.I think the situation in Wales is somewhat different. Here we've got
:01:52. > :01:55.Welsh Labour grassroots which is a subgroup which ultimately is
:01:56. > :02:00.affiliated to momentum, said Julie. In terms of Wales and the politics
:02:01. > :02:04.of Wales, yes, they are somewhat different. But that is because of
:02:05. > :02:09.the fact that we've got devolution here. We don't have the same level
:02:10. > :02:14.of devolution as Scotland. There are going to be differences.
:02:15. > :02:18.But the point with the labour at a UK wide level is the party hasn't
:02:19. > :02:23.been reflecting the views of members. You could make the same
:02:24. > :02:27.point about Wales. You've got all the Labour grassroots people, the
:02:28. > :02:29.new members, is the Assembly group and be First Minister reflecting the
:02:30. > :02:33.views of the Labour members in Wales?
:02:34. > :02:39.I think that's a different discussion. Let's have it. That's a
:02:40. > :02:42.discussion for Welsh Labour. Welsh Labour needs to have that
:02:43. > :02:47.discussion. Yes, it is true that ultimately we do have the likes of
:02:48. > :02:52.Neil Hamilton and others sitting in an Assembly, it's not an outcome I
:02:53. > :02:56.was looking forward to, or wanted, ultimately. We've got a lot of work
:02:57. > :03:01.to do to make sure that we once again become the majority. I think
:03:02. > :03:07.that is something that we are going to have to do. We have two win on
:03:08. > :03:12.the streets. We have to show that we are united as one Labour. Yet in
:03:13. > :03:16.Wales or elsewhere. As Joe says, Alta McGee, Joe didn't support
:03:17. > :03:22.Jeremy Corbyn last time, and hasn't this time. -- ultimately she didn't
:03:23. > :03:29.support him last time. But what she did do to other MPs where people
:03:30. > :03:32.have been unhappy, she held a nomination meeting and there was an
:03:33. > :03:37.open discussion with members in terms of who they believe is the
:03:38. > :03:41.right candidate to lead. So, ultimately, I think what members are
:03:42. > :03:47.looking for is democracy. They want a say. The rules and regulations...
:03:48. > :03:54.Sorry, we are just a little stuck on time. If Jeromy Corbyn tours when,
:03:55. > :03:58.what needs to happen next was macro -- if Jeromy Corbyn is successful
:03:59. > :03:59.what needs to happen next? We need better communication across
:04:00. > :04:02.the board. My thanks to Greg Hands,
:04:03. > :04:04.Tom Brake and Neil Coyle, Will Jeremy Corbyn be able
:04:05. > :04:14.to reunite the Labour Party if he's If Theresa May facing a backbench
:04:15. > :04:26.rebellion over her Brexit strategy? And does Tim Farron have any chance
:04:27. > :04:30.of staging a Lib Dem comeback Back with me now is Helen Lewis,
:04:31. > :04:42.Isabel Oakeshott and Tim Shipman. Also, following on from our
:04:43. > :04:45.interview with Labour MP Peter Kyle, who's complained that some Corbyn
:04:46. > :04:47.supporters are trying to deselect him, we can
:04:48. > :04:49.speak to the national organiser for Momentum,
:04:50. > :05:01.James Schneider, who joins James, there is mounting evidence
:05:02. > :05:08.that one of the purposes, one of the purposes, of Momentum is to get more
:05:09. > :05:13.Corbyn friendly Labour MPs elected. Are you still denying that? There is
:05:14. > :05:21.not mounting evidence that Momentum is campaigning for the. We are not
:05:22. > :05:27.campaigning for the selections. The one person who is apparently going
:05:28. > :05:31.to appear in a documentary tomorrow calling for Peter Kyle to be
:05:32. > :05:36.deselected isn't a member of Momentum. So you would urge all
:05:37. > :05:42.Momentum supporters in Brighton and Hove to back Mr Kyle, the sitting
:05:43. > :05:45.MP? That is not what I'm saying, I'm saying selections are a matter for
:05:46. > :05:49.local party members and affiliates and it is their right to decide what
:05:50. > :05:59.they would like to decide. Momentum is not campaigning to reselect any
:06:00. > :06:04.particular MPs. So why was Mr Sandel addressing a group of Momentum
:06:05. > :06:08.supporters, telling them how to go about deselecting anti-Corbin Labour
:06:09. > :06:17.MPs? He was invited by one local group. In a big organisation which
:06:18. > :06:20.is very, very active, 150 groups, 18,000 members, tens of thousands of
:06:21. > :06:26.activists, people have democratic debate and get invited for talks,
:06:27. > :06:30.that is normal. One meeting does not dictate national policy. Are you
:06:31. > :06:37.telling us today that Momentum, at the local level, is not and will not
:06:38. > :06:41.be involved in any efforts to replace sitting MPs? What I'm
:06:42. > :06:46.telling you is that the selections are a matter for local Labour Party
:06:47. > :06:49.members and affiliates. It is their right to choose through the
:06:50. > :06:54.mechanisms laid down by party conference and the National
:06:55. > :06:58.Executive Committee, to do that, that is completely normal. What I am
:06:59. > :07:04.saying is Momentum is not campaigning for any deselection.
:07:05. > :07:09.Even at a local level? Momentum is not campaigning for deselection. Are
:07:10. > :07:13.you telling me Momentum is not involved in trying to get rid of
:07:14. > :07:18.local MPs at local level, is that what you are saying? Andrew, what
:07:19. > :07:22.I'm telling you is that selections and elections within the Labour
:07:23. > :07:28.Party are the democratic right for members and affiliates. We are not
:07:29. > :07:35.trying to interfere with that, one way or the other. There may be
:07:36. > :07:38.members of Momentum who are members of the Labour Party who take a
:07:39. > :07:42.particular view on their MP, for example myself, I am a member of
:07:43. > :07:47.Momentum and the Labour Party, I take the view on my MP, I really
:07:48. > :07:57.like my MP. Who is your MP? Keir Starmer. So his position is safe
:07:58. > :08:01.from Momentum? All MPs' positions are safe... We have got Len
:08:02. > :08:05.McCluskey of Unite saying it is time to get rid of MPs who have been
:08:06. > :08:12.overcritical of Mr Corbyn, Mark Sandell lecturing Momentum on how to
:08:13. > :08:15.unseat sitting MPs, Clive Lewis describing deselection as simply
:08:16. > :08:22.democratic selection. Have you not had the memo yet? Andrew,
:08:23. > :08:29.selections, as I keep on saying, are the democratic right of local party
:08:30. > :08:33.members and affiliates. I am not trying to stop anybody having those
:08:34. > :08:36.rights, those rights are extremely important in a democratic party, but
:08:37. > :08:40.what I'm not going to do is be goaded into saying something I don't
:08:41. > :08:43.think, which is that Momentum should be organising for deselection is
:08:44. > :08:48.because that is not what we are doing. You are not being goaded,
:08:49. > :08:54.simply questioned. Is it correct that Momentum would like to have, or
:08:55. > :08:58.plans to have, what it is calling an engagement officer in every
:08:59. > :09:02.constituency Labour Party just to keep an eye on what is going on? Can
:09:03. > :09:07.you tell us what the engagement officer would do? It is half true.
:09:08. > :09:12.If you look at the guidelines on Momentum's website, to be a verified
:09:13. > :09:17.local Momentum, you need positive engagement with your local Labour
:09:18. > :09:20.Party, local trades union branches, community and activist groups, so
:09:21. > :09:24.each group has Labour Party engagement officers so that people
:09:25. > :09:28.are making sure they are taking part in the party, we want people to be
:09:29. > :09:39.as involved in the Labour Party as they can be, to be campaigning and
:09:40. > :09:42.part of a Democratic Party. Thank you, I know this was short notice,
:09:43. > :09:43.thank you for joining us this morning.
:09:44. > :09:46.Let's move on because we talked about Labour at the beginning. To
:09:47. > :09:48.the Lib Dems. Theoretically, the Lib Dems, at this point, given what is
:09:49. > :09:52.happening to Labour, given Mrs May and grammar schools, there could be
:09:53. > :09:56.an opening for the Lib Dems, but is there any sign of it? At the moment
:09:57. > :10:00.the thing that Tim Farron could do to get noticed would be to go
:10:01. > :10:03.skinny-dipping off Brighton beach because it might get him some press
:10:04. > :10:06.attention. He gave quite an interesting speech which I'm afraid
:10:07. > :10:09.I read on my mobile phone rather than watching in person, which tells
:10:10. > :10:27.a tale itself. This is a guy trying to rebuild locally, get
:10:28. > :10:30.councillors elected again, being relatively successful at that, they
:10:31. > :10:33.just got a 38% swing in athletes the other day against the Labour Party,
:10:34. > :10:35.but it is a long road back and at the moment they are not exploiting
:10:36. > :10:38.the national opportunity they have got. I think the problem they have
:10:39. > :10:40.got is their grassroots network is so depleted, the opposite situation
:10:41. > :10:44.to the Labour Party. They do not have the kind of infrastructure any
:10:45. > :10:47.more, there are no resources, human or financial resources, they don't
:10:48. > :10:52.have the people to go out there and knock on doors. Tim Farron, a great
:10:53. > :10:54.and lovely guy, but he doesn't provide the most charismatic of
:10:55. > :11:01.leadership and they really deep to find something to pin a revival on,
:11:02. > :11:05.and at the moment it isn't there. I am more upbeat than these two, it is
:11:06. > :11:10.a long road back that there is a space down the middle between their
:11:11. > :11:14.Labour is and the Conservatives are, it is very authoritarian at the Home
:11:15. > :11:18.Office which opens up a space for a Liberal party. They have only got
:11:19. > :11:22.eight MPs, if they had more, we would be paying more attention to
:11:23. > :11:25.them. Attention is one of the problems, getting attention is
:11:26. > :11:29.difficult for them, there will not be that many senior journalists at
:11:30. > :11:34.the Lib Dem conference. Then never used to be. We are going way back to
:11:35. > :11:48.where it Lib Dems used to be a long time ago. But it is worse, if you
:11:49. > :11:52.look ten years ago at least they had a reasonable cohort but I don't
:11:53. > :11:54.think the number of MPs is the issue. To get attention you have got
:11:55. > :11:57.to be spiky, punchy, pumping out controversial press releases, they
:11:58. > :11:59.are not doing that. But they have an advantage over Labour, they are used
:12:00. > :12:02.to talking to people who disagree with them, there are relatively few
:12:03. > :12:05.friendly ears for the Lib Dem, and I think there are some signs of
:12:06. > :12:10.resurgence but it is a long road back. There is a new Tory group
:12:11. > :12:17.campaigning for hard Brexit. It is fair to say that the longer Mrs May
:12:18. > :12:22.waits to trigger article 50, the more Tory divisions will come to the
:12:23. > :12:27.surface? I think that is fair enough, absolutely, but I have some
:12:28. > :12:32.sympathy with her position of leaving it until she has got her
:12:33. > :12:36.ducks in a row. Once Article 50 is triggered, there is a limited time
:12:37. > :12:40.frame to work out the negotiations, and you had an interesting guest
:12:41. > :12:45.earlier, we had David Liddington who spent so long on the European
:12:46. > :12:50.diplomatic circuit, and his view is that you do need time to work all
:12:51. > :12:55.this out before you press the button on it. So not this side of New Year?
:12:56. > :12:59.But you cannot leave it forever because there are European elections
:13:00. > :13:05.coming up, it would be ludicrous to be in a position where we are
:13:06. > :13:12.re-elected MEPs. I will out myself as a moaning Remainer. Nigel Farage
:13:13. > :13:16.this morning said people voted to get out of the single market. Did
:13:17. > :13:18.they? Again, no one knows what Brexit means. We will talk more
:13:19. > :13:21.about that as autumn progresses. Jo Coburn will be back
:13:22. > :13:25.on BBC Two tomorrow at noon with coverage of the Lib Dem
:13:26. > :13:26.conference in Brighton. I will bring Tim Farron's speech on
:13:27. > :13:30.Tuesday. And I'll be back with more
:13:31. > :13:33.Sunday Politics live from the Labour conference in Liverpool
:13:34. > :13:36.here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:37. > :13:43.it's the Sunday Politics.