:00:00. > :00:08.Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided
:00:09. > :00:11.who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.
:00:12. > :00:47.So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?
:00:48. > :00:51.Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:52. > :00:53.I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn
:00:54. > :00:59.elected as leader of the Labour Party.
:01:00. > :01:04.Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".
:01:05. > :01:08.But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?
:01:09. > :01:11.We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak
:01:12. > :01:13.to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.
:01:14. > :01:15.Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.
:01:16. > :01:21.His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah
:01:22. > :01:23.but he will never become the leader -
:01:24. > :01:32.He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -
:01:33. > :01:37.we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.
:01:38. > :01:41.David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May
:01:42. > :01:43.because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the
:01:44. > :01:51.Labour's sticking with Corbyn but will the party in
:01:52. > :01:54.And what does the opposition make of Carwyn Jones' plans
:01:55. > :02:00.In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?
:02:01. > :02:03.London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives
:02:04. > :02:10.And we tried to oust them from the programme -
:02:11. > :02:14.but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best
:02:15. > :02:18.and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,
:02:19. > :02:20.Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting
:02:21. > :02:27.David Cameron became intensely frustrated
:02:28. > :02:29.at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions
:02:30. > :02:33.in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.
:02:34. > :02:38.That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.
:02:39. > :02:42.The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:
:02:43. > :02:47.The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail
:02:48. > :02:50.The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy
:02:51. > :02:56.Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach
:02:57. > :03:01.At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's
:03:02. > :03:04.Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's
:03:05. > :03:11.He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after
:03:12. > :03:18.saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".
:03:19. > :03:20.And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over
:03:21. > :03:23.backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read
:03:24. > :03:33.There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we
:03:34. > :03:38.know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us
:03:39. > :03:43.is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the
:03:44. > :03:46.only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a
:03:47. > :03:51.submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during
:03:52. > :03:57.the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why
:03:58. > :04:00.does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,
:04:01. > :04:04.they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing
:04:05. > :04:08.fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver
:04:09. > :04:12.says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of
:04:13. > :04:17.Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind
:04:18. > :04:21.Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did
:04:22. > :04:25.she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a
:04:26. > :04:30.reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.
:04:31. > :04:34.What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was
:04:35. > :04:39.she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is
:04:40. > :04:43.unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things
:04:44. > :04:47.we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to
:04:48. > :04:54.which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet
:04:55. > :04:58.seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we
:04:59. > :05:04.see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be
:05:05. > :05:10.exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the
:05:11. > :05:17.fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I
:05:18. > :05:20.missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a
:05:21. > :05:25.minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he
:05:26. > :05:28.would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and
:05:29. > :05:33.politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking
:05:34. > :05:36.them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the
:05:37. > :05:42.country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis
:05:43. > :05:49.of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics
:05:50. > :05:52.before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played
:05:53. > :05:57.the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the
:05:58. > :06:03.Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them
:06:04. > :06:06.and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective
:06:07. > :06:10.during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the
:06:11. > :06:14.leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that
:06:15. > :06:17.effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official
:06:18. > :06:22.at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me
:06:23. > :06:26.earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had
:06:27. > :06:30.declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great
:06:31. > :06:35.admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.
:06:36. > :06:40.So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made
:06:41. > :06:47.Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing
:06:48. > :06:51.contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership
:06:52. > :06:55.ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the
:06:56. > :06:59.Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and
:07:00. > :07:03.the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they
:07:04. > :07:05.wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of
:07:06. > :07:11.the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more
:07:12. > :07:15.about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile
:07:16. > :07:17.for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't
:07:18. > :07:26.want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They
:07:27. > :07:33.calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa
:07:34. > :07:35.May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than
:07:36. > :07:40.Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed
:07:41. > :07:45.her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for
:07:46. > :07:50.20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more
:07:51. > :07:55.about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there
:07:56. > :07:58.too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as
:07:59. > :08:03.an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we
:08:04. > :08:08.need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing
:08:09. > :08:11.Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who
:08:12. > :08:18.likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is
:08:19. > :08:21.tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we
:08:22. > :08:25.want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the
:08:26. > :08:29.result everyone expected. After almost three months
:08:30. > :08:32.of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -
:08:33. > :08:34.so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -
:08:35. > :08:38.or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching
:08:39. > :08:41.events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour
:08:42. > :08:44.family facing the future. He was the head of the family last
:08:45. > :08:47.week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:48. > :08:54.and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:55. > :08:57.and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest
:08:58. > :09:00.and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just
:09:01. > :09:10.over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's
:09:11. > :09:12.plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members
:09:13. > :09:17.all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive
:09:18. > :09:19.education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school
:09:20. > :09:35.segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging
:09:36. > :09:38.agenda for our country. But the big message
:09:39. > :09:43.to his party was this. We have much more in common
:09:44. > :09:45.than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe
:09:46. > :09:57.that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do
:09:58. > :10:00.as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go
:10:01. > :10:03.and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy
:10:04. > :10:05.Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory
:10:06. > :10:11.parties, but the most important thing now is just
:10:12. > :10:13.bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing
:10:14. > :10:16.is going around all the different individual party receptions,
:10:17. > :10:20.the different regions and giving the same unity message,
:10:21. > :10:22.and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,
:10:23. > :10:26.with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found
:10:27. > :10:29.a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited
:10:30. > :10:31.in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going
:10:32. > :10:33.to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?
:10:34. > :10:35.Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me
:10:36. > :10:45.so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?
:10:46. > :10:48.Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out
:10:49. > :10:52.their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound
:10:53. > :10:53.entirely convinced. It was fine.
:10:54. > :10:56.What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm
:10:57. > :10:59.the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that
:11:00. > :11:03.Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates
:11:04. > :11:05.within the PLP. I think that's
:11:06. > :11:06.the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then
:11:07. > :11:13.change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,
:11:14. > :11:20.posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,
:11:21. > :11:29.he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those
:11:30. > :11:34.issues as well. This is a position,
:11:35. > :11:47.as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in
:11:48. > :11:49.position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister
:11:50. > :11:53.of this country unless you appeal to the great population,
:11:54. > :11:55.and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no
:11:56. > :11:58.leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,
:11:59. > :12:00.they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics
:12:01. > :12:04.are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially
:12:05. > :12:06.plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter
:12:07. > :12:14.here at the festival running alongside conference,
:12:15. > :12:15.organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon
:12:16. > :12:23.that they have managed to get their hero elected,
:12:24. > :12:27.not just once but twice. And we're joined now
:12:28. > :12:39.by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.
:12:40. > :12:44.Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of
:12:45. > :12:48.2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,
:12:49. > :12:51.or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?
:12:52. > :12:56.You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.
:12:57. > :13:01.As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated
:13:02. > :13:05.plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because
:13:06. > :13:11.I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I
:13:12. > :13:16.was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find
:13:17. > :13:20.ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the
:13:21. > :13:23.capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a
:13:24. > :13:28.concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A
:13:29. > :13:31.number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was
:13:32. > :13:36.clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At
:13:37. > :13:41.the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said
:13:42. > :13:45.he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did
:13:46. > :13:50.there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger
:13:51. > :13:53.than ever. What we have done this is have a
:13:54. > :13:56.really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was
:13:57. > :14:03.important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out
:14:04. > :14:07.and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got
:14:08. > :14:12.to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the
:14:13. > :14:16.last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to
:14:17. > :14:21.understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective
:14:22. > :14:25.opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to
:14:26. > :14:31.get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but
:14:32. > :14:34.only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him
:14:35. > :14:39.the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this
:14:40. > :14:45.process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the
:14:46. > :14:49.2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who
:14:50. > :14:54.knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when
:14:55. > :14:57.it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would
:14:58. > :15:02.have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and
:15:03. > :15:06.it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your
:15:07. > :15:09.party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can
:15:10. > :15:12.unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the
:15:13. > :15:18.country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest
:15:19. > :15:23.of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to
:15:24. > :15:27.continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of
:15:28. > :15:32.the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General
:15:33. > :15:36.Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We
:15:37. > :15:41.need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but
:15:42. > :15:45.it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next
:15:46. > :15:48.General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and
:15:49. > :15:52.capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,
:15:53. > :15:55.everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are
:15:56. > :15:58.competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer
:15:59. > :16:04.that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have
:16:05. > :16:07.doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been
:16:08. > :16:10.honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over
:16:11. > :16:14.the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the
:16:15. > :16:19.concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be
:16:20. > :16:24.congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear
:16:25. > :16:28.victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that
:16:29. > :16:32.they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my
:16:33. > :16:36.mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party
:16:37. > :16:41.forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit
:16:42. > :16:45.unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the
:16:46. > :16:50.Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.
:16:51. > :16:56.Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about
:16:57. > :17:03.wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The
:17:04. > :17:10.time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his
:17:11. > :17:12.willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet
:17:13. > :17:21.should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --
:17:22. > :17:27.majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the
:17:28. > :17:32.cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been
:17:33. > :17:36.playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours
:17:37. > :17:40.following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the
:17:41. > :17:45.last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing
:17:46. > :17:50.that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His
:17:51. > :17:53.support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the
:17:54. > :17:59.membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who
:18:00. > :18:03.gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So
:18:04. > :18:06.why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that
:18:07. > :18:11.part of the Labour Party which likes him least?
:18:12. > :18:17.I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party
:18:18. > :18:23.incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order
:18:24. > :18:26.to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic
:18:27. > :18:32.duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't
:18:33. > :18:35.have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of
:18:36. > :18:39.travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful
:18:40. > :18:47.results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability
:18:48. > :18:52.to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.
:18:53. > :19:02.If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --
:19:03. > :19:06.he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and
:19:07. > :19:11.humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he
:19:12. > :19:14.could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he
:19:15. > :19:20.sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many
:19:21. > :19:24.would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be
:19:25. > :19:28.good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that
:19:29. > :19:34.route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow
:19:35. > :19:38.Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit
:19:39. > :19:42.in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't
:19:43. > :19:48.changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you
:19:49. > :19:55.just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two
:19:56. > :20:00.leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even
:20:01. > :20:06.bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the
:20:07. > :20:10.country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in
:20:11. > :20:13.the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my
:20:14. > :20:16.experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I
:20:17. > :20:21.think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary
:20:22. > :20:27.Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.
:20:28. > :20:32.I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the
:20:33. > :20:35.backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the
:20:36. > :20:39.front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,
:20:40. > :20:43.Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have
:20:44. > :20:49.you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would
:20:50. > :20:54.you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow
:20:55. > :20:57.Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take
:20:58. > :21:03.their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to
:21:04. > :21:06.their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of
:21:07. > :21:10.the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for
:21:11. > :21:15.some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed
:21:16. > :21:21.Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general
:21:22. > :21:25.fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to
:21:26. > :21:31.be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did
:21:32. > :21:36.Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?
:21:37. > :21:38.I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond
:21:39. > :21:43.the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy
:21:44. > :21:47.Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment
:21:48. > :21:49.programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy
:21:50. > :22:01.Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen
:22:02. > :22:06.Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy
:22:07. > :22:11.Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'
:22:12. > :22:19.John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left
:22:20. > :22:24.and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as
:22:25. > :22:27.left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have
:22:28. > :22:33.any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,
:22:34. > :22:36.actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and
:22:37. > :22:42.our belief that the British people should have a say on the final
:22:43. > :22:46.Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general
:22:47. > :22:52.election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as
:22:53. > :22:58.well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the
:22:59. > :23:04.difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has
:23:05. > :23:07.changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear
:23:08. > :23:11.difference between the new members who have come in and those who were
:23:12. > :23:16.party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would
:23:17. > :23:23.be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who
:23:24. > :23:27.more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we
:23:28. > :23:30.want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the
:23:31. > :23:35.Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about
:23:36. > :23:41.that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)
:23:42. > :23:46.Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,
:23:47. > :23:50.new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I
:23:51. > :23:55.would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what
:23:56. > :23:59.I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be
:24:00. > :24:03.honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a
:24:04. > :24:07.hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new
:24:08. > :24:11.members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom
:24:12. > :24:15.have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should
:24:16. > :24:20.remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people
:24:21. > :24:27.joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so
:24:28. > :24:30.there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy
:24:31. > :24:39.Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I
:24:40. > :24:43.understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know
:24:44. > :24:51.there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when
:24:52. > :24:55.you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the
:24:56. > :25:02.biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a
:25:03. > :25:06.team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she
:25:07. > :25:11.will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet
:25:12. > :25:13.elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi
:25:14. > :25:18.Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this
:25:19. > :25:21.leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade
:25:22. > :25:24.Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use
:25:25. > :25:27.the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee
:25:28. > :25:35.is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win
:25:36. > :25:37.control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn
:25:38. > :25:45.first became leader, there has been a fine balance
:25:46. > :25:48.on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,
:25:49. > :25:57.the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up
:25:58. > :25:59.to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members
:26:00. > :26:03.representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,
:26:04. > :26:09.the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,
:26:10. > :26:11.with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these
:26:12. > :26:16.could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been
:26:17. > :26:24.boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,
:26:25. > :26:27.who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed
:26:28. > :26:32.a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour
:26:33. > :26:36.leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn
:26:37. > :26:39.Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move
:26:40. > :26:46.to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:47. > :26:52.a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks
:26:53. > :27:06.three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,
:27:07. > :27:13.Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,
:27:14. > :27:16.is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect
:27:17. > :27:19.people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists
:27:20. > :27:21.on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting
:27:22. > :27:23.the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more
:27:24. > :27:26.say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow
:27:27. > :27:28.Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future
:27:29. > :27:30.leadership elections, which would make it almost
:27:31. > :27:33.impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making
:27:34. > :27:35.a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared
:27:36. > :27:49.by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -
:27:50. > :27:51.a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC
:27:52. > :27:54.and takes up her seat at the end of the week -
:27:55. > :27:57.and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith
:27:58. > :28:17.in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The
:28:18. > :28:24.figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn
:28:25. > :28:32.and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is
:28:33. > :28:39.very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn
:28:40. > :28:43.supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What
:28:44. > :28:47.about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives
:28:48. > :28:50.to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would
:28:51. > :28:54.be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.
:28:55. > :29:00.In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the
:29:01. > :29:04.balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing
:29:05. > :29:09.because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh
:29:10. > :29:14.representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,
:29:15. > :29:20.it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think
:29:21. > :29:23.of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm
:29:24. > :29:27.really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's
:29:28. > :29:35.incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.
:29:36. > :29:38.So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,
:29:39. > :29:42.they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?
:29:43. > :29:46.Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving
:29:47. > :29:50.towards having better representation, it's actually taking
:29:51. > :29:56.an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,
:29:57. > :30:01.the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that
:30:02. > :30:05.would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote
:30:06. > :30:10.from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that
:30:11. > :30:14.through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is
:30:15. > :30:19.it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I
:30:20. > :30:23.understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the
:30:24. > :30:26.conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting
:30:27. > :30:32.things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on
:30:33. > :30:35.conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the
:30:36. > :30:44.side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.
:30:45. > :30:48.Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that
:30:49. > :30:53.could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections
:30:54. > :31:01.for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I
:31:02. > :31:06.don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you
:31:07. > :31:14.can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is
:31:15. > :31:21.this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't
:31:22. > :31:24.serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would
:31:25. > :31:29.you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to
:31:30. > :31:33.listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it
:31:34. > :31:37.entirely elected by members. All elected?
:31:38. > :31:47.But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one
:31:48. > :31:56.third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP
:31:57. > :32:02.could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn
:32:03. > :32:07.agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about
:32:08. > :32:10.party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional
:32:11. > :32:13.unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories
:32:14. > :32:18.to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you
:32:19. > :32:21.need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not
:32:22. > :32:25.come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A
:32:26. > :32:30.few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some
:32:31. > :32:35.kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is
:32:36. > :32:40.political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.
:32:41. > :32:48.If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words
:32:49. > :32:51.of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and
:32:52. > :32:56.should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like
:32:57. > :33:00.that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a
:33:01. > :33:03.decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,
:33:04. > :33:07.and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory
:33:08. > :33:11.deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the
:33:12. > :33:15.PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other
:33:16. > :33:18.ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other
:33:19. > :33:22.ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the
:33:23. > :33:26.Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership
:33:27. > :33:30.of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between
:33:31. > :33:34.the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of
:33:35. > :33:38.people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some
:33:39. > :33:43.of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other
:33:44. > :33:48.way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could
:33:49. > :33:51.change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a
:33:52. > :33:57.membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already
:33:58. > :34:00.vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off
:34:01. > :34:05.people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour
:34:06. > :34:11.heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was
:34:12. > :34:14.an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in
:34:15. > :34:17.the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could
:34:18. > :34:25.reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come
:34:26. > :34:30.back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to
:34:31. > :34:34.recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.
:34:35. > :34:40.It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!
:34:41. > :34:42.It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:43. > :34:45.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:34:46. > :34:58.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:34:59. > :35:03.No big surprise as Jeremy Corbyn remains Labour leader,
:35:04. > :35:06.but what will that mean for the party in Wales?
:35:07. > :35:09.And in Cardiff Bay, the agenda for government has been laid out,
:35:10. > :35:12.but with no majority, there may have to be compromises.
:35:13. > :35:19.But first, after weeks and weeks of arguing,
:35:20. > :35:22.bickering and more than a little name calling, Labour has decided not
:35:23. > :35:25.to change horses after all, and stick with Jeremy Corbyn.
:35:26. > :35:28.But now that the leadership question has been settled,
:35:29. > :35:30.for the time being at least, what does this mean
:35:31. > :35:34.David Cornock has been roaming around the conference
:35:35. > :35:41.Owen Smith said if Jeremy Corbyn won, it would be Groundhog Day for
:35:42. > :35:47.So here we are again with a newly elected leader
:35:48. > :35:52.The difference this year, of course, is
:35:53. > :35:56.that Mr Corbyn needs to replace the dozens of MPs who left the front
:35:57. > :36:01.bench because they had no confidence in his leadership.
:36:02. > :36:03.It is important there is give and take, really.
:36:04. > :36:06.Everyone in the party has to draw breath, I think,
:36:07. > :36:10.and learn some lessons over what has happened over the summer.
:36:11. > :36:14.That includes MPs but it also includes the leadership as well.
:36:15. > :36:17.Some MPs will go back, others will not.
:36:18. > :36:21.Some will go back but only if MPs themselves are able to choose
:36:22. > :36:26.Jeremy Corbyn isn't keen on that idea, it would
:36:27. > :36:31.Even those loyal to the party leadership say it
:36:32. > :36:35.is time now for him to compromise on that one.
:36:36. > :36:37.He, as Leader of the Opposition, has a responsibility to
:36:38. > :36:44.I think that a gesture around Shadow Cabinet,
:36:45. > :36:47.some of the things he said in his speech today about there being no
:36:48. > :36:50.place for abuse within the party, some definite action, some clear
:36:51. > :36:53.action on that would be a good start.
:36:54. > :36:57.Labour may not be able to decide how to choose its own Shadow Cabinet
:36:58. > :37:01.but this conference should agree to give more powers to the
:37:02. > :37:07.Control over their own elections and a permanent seat
:37:08. > :37:11.on the national executive committee should enable Welsh Labour to
:37:12. > :37:16.distance itself slightly from a more left-wing leadership at Westminster.
:37:17. > :37:23.But critics might argue that this autonomy is more symbolic than real.
:37:24. > :37:26.We belong to the same democratic tradition,
:37:27. > :37:29.we belong to the same democratic party, a radical party.
:37:30. > :37:33.We can work together, we do work together all the time.
:37:34. > :37:39.I think there has been a lot of froth about the falling out,
:37:40. > :37:42.to some extent created by sections of the media who obviously,
:37:43. > :37:46.for the entertainment value, but some of them for
:37:47. > :37:51.political reasons, are extremely dubious of Jeremy's position.
:37:52. > :37:54.And get on with the work we've got to do as a
:37:55. > :37:57.Jeremy Corbyn may have used his victory speech to
:37:58. > :38:02.appeal for party unity but he also used it to remind the audience here
:38:03. > :38:05.that he is now won a second mandate in a year.
:38:06. > :38:10.Critics fear that his supporters in constituencies will
:38:11. > :38:15.use that mandate as an excuse to deselect MPs who don't share Jeremy
:38:16. > :38:22.Over the summer there has been a lot of loose talk, really.
:38:23. > :38:26.The important thing now is that is put behind us.
:38:27. > :38:34.I think it is important, we move beyond slogans, we are all Labour.
:38:35. > :38:37.What then of the Welsh MP behind the leadership challenge?
:38:38. > :38:40.Owen Smith has always said that he would not go
:38:41. > :38:44.back to serve in Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet.
:38:45. > :38:48.After a bruising experience, he will now take time to
:38:49. > :38:54.The hope of his supporters that that leadership challenge would
:38:55. > :39:01.destabilise Mr Corbyn, now appears a forlorn one.
:39:02. > :39:05.Now this morning the leader of Welsh Labour, Carwyn Jones,
:39:06. > :39:09.said in his words "the booing, the hissing" has to stop.
:39:10. > :39:13.A few moments ago I spoke to the Health Minister
:39:14. > :39:15.Vaughan Gething, who's at the Conference in Liverpool.
:39:16. > :39:17.I began by asking him how they could start
:39:18. > :39:30.Every side of this debate needs to recognise we've got a responsibility
:39:31. > :39:33.to make our party worker, not just for the sake of the Labour Party but
:39:34. > :39:38.the sake of all those communities that need a Labour government across
:39:39. > :39:43.the UK. In Wales, with got a good story to tell. We've got a unity of
:39:44. > :39:47.purpose. Still in government, still making decisions, making choices to
:39:48. > :39:52.improve communities. That is what we need to do within the UK. There has
:39:53. > :40:00.to be an acceptance of differing views, that has got beat them in a
:40:01. > :40:04.common manner. We provide a unified opposition in parliament and then we
:40:05. > :40:07.persuade people we really are an alternative government. That can't
:40:08. > :40:12.be done if people aren't prepared to act in a more unified manner in the
:40:13. > :40:15.future. Both sides of this debate as to recognise they have a
:40:16. > :40:18.responsibility for that to happen. The country can finally have another
:40:19. > :40:22.Labour government is to undo the damage being done by the Tories.
:40:23. > :40:28.Do you think Jeremy Corbyn should be reaching out, doing more and being
:40:29. > :40:31.more in listening mode to Carwyn Jones as one of the foremost Labour
:40:32. > :40:37.politicians in terms of seniority in the UK?
:40:38. > :40:42.The leadership of the party does that to reach out. In Jeremy's
:40:43. > :40:47.speech yesterday he indicated he would do that. In reaching out to
:40:48. > :40:55.people within the PLP has to look bound -- beyond. In Wales they will
:40:56. > :40:57.be aired Day of action to oppose plans for grammar schools in
:40:58. > :41:06.England. In Wales, we don't have them. We have managed to do them
:41:07. > :41:10.through difficult election cycles. Carwyn Jones should be part of
:41:11. > :41:15.Jeremy's conversation about is what we need to do to have a successful
:41:16. > :41:19.Labour Party, to take victory at a future devil collection, to deliver
:41:20. > :41:23.a UK Labour government is because that is the purpose of our party. We
:41:24. > :41:26.want to implement our values in government and to make a real
:41:27. > :41:31.difference for people across the country, not simply to have a debate
:41:32. > :41:35.from the comfort of opposition. My community suffers from not having a
:41:36. > :41:38.UK lobby government just as I can see the communities they represent
:41:39. > :41:43.seeing benefits from having Welsh Labour running government.
:41:44. > :41:46.In terms of the constituency Labour Party is now all of which have seen
:41:47. > :41:54.in increasing growth of the number of members, Nu Labour supporters
:41:55. > :41:59.coming in. How confident are you that the Labour Assembly group
:42:00. > :42:02.represents the feelings of those new members, far to the left of the
:42:03. > :42:08.original Labour member party members when it comes to Assembly Members.
:42:09. > :42:15.How reflective are you of their views and opinions?
:42:16. > :42:19.There are two things to say. We were selected recently and we fought an
:42:20. > :42:23.election within the last few months. It isn't that far-away we're putting
:42:24. > :42:30.ourselves... Should there be a reselection before
:42:31. > :42:34.the next Assembly election? There will be a normal reselection
:42:35. > :42:38.process for Assembly Members as that is every time. We will go through
:42:39. > :42:42.the triggered by this process, an opportunity to put ourselves in
:42:43. > :42:45.front of the public. The really important thing I want to stresses
:42:46. > :42:49.within the party in Wales, within Welsh Labour, we have shown we can
:42:50. > :42:53.have a difference in opinion, we can celebrate that has a strength
:42:54. > :42:58.because the policy we need to have has to have honest minds and voices
:42:59. > :43:05.about our challenges and successes. That has to be listening to all the
:43:06. > :43:11.different parts of our members. At the moment you are having these
:43:12. > :43:17.debates... You having be spat in public and the public are seeing
:43:18. > :43:22.that. That is right Jeremy Corbyn's challenges the convinced the public
:43:23. > :43:29.key is prime ministerial material. How difficult challenge will the?
:43:30. > :43:34.That is where Welsh Labour has some lessons. We have accommodated
:43:35. > :43:41.conversations in the previous term and this one. We haven't had those
:43:42. > :43:44.made -- major public spats. That is something the whole party the UK
:43:45. > :43:47.needs to take on board. That is the responsibility from the leadership
:43:48. > :43:51.to reach out and make sure that conversation can take place, that
:43:52. > :43:56.isn't going to be any lack of space for that debate to happen. Equally,
:43:57. > :44:01.the PLP have to respond in kind. Because of the prepared to respect
:44:02. > :44:05.the mandate Jeremy has been renewed. They've got out debate in a
:44:06. > :44:09.constructive and disciplined manner within the walls of our Labour Party
:44:10. > :44:13.Suey present to the public a unified party that is serious about
:44:14. > :44:17.returning to government and has answers to the problems Britain
:44:18. > :44:22.faces. It isn't enough to simply say, the Tories are breaking the
:44:23. > :44:26.country. We have to have a genuine alternative so people can believe in
:44:27. > :44:32.it. The PLP, the group of Labour MPs, so
:44:33. > :44:37.many of whom have been undermining, trying to oust Jeremy Corbyn as
:44:38. > :44:41.leader, do they, should they now have to face reselection considering
:44:42. > :44:45.there are about the changes but they have been so keen on undermining
:44:46. > :44:52.Jeremy Corbyn a fresher team might be needed in parliament?
:44:53. > :44:56.It is important we have a normal process. I'm not interested in
:44:57. > :45:01.calling for deselection of Labour members of Parliament who have
:45:02. > :45:06.fought and won campaigns to win their seas. The challenge is not how
:45:07. > :45:11.we deselect our current groups of MPs, the challenge is how we find an
:45:12. > :45:19.additional member to win a general election. We have to move on from
:45:20. > :45:24.the debate, to draw a line and move forward and say how do we beat the
:45:25. > :45:27.Tories? We've got lessons to learn. In Wales we've got lessons to teach
:45:28. > :45:31.the rest of the party about what it is to have a unified government who
:45:32. > :45:41.can deal with their differences and have a live unity of purpose. That
:45:42. > :45:42.is what our party needs. Vaughan Gething, thank you very much
:45:43. > :45:44.for your time. After 17 years in power,
:45:45. > :45:46.the Welsh Government says it's in the middle
:45:47. > :45:48.of a decade of delivery. This week it announced exactly
:45:49. > :45:51.what it plans to deliver over But what's in its programme
:45:52. > :45:56.for Government? Here it is, condensed
:45:57. > :46:14.into two minutes. We want a stronger, fairer economy,
:46:15. > :46:17.improved and reformed public services and a united,
:46:18. > :46:21.connected and sustainable Wales. Taking Wales Forward sets out how
:46:22. > :46:24.we will approach the task These are the policies the people
:46:25. > :46:46.of Wales voted for and these Yes, there are difficult decisions
:46:47. > :46:51.ahead and we will need to be innovative in our delivery
:46:52. > :46:55.but we will stand by This programme for government gives
:46:56. > :47:15.us what we need to tackle the major To make a tangible
:47:16. > :47:19.difference to people's lives The Welsh Government have
:47:20. > :47:39.published their programme for government and it is essentially
:47:40. > :47:42.16 pages of rhetoric. They are talking about a
:47:43. > :47:45.healthy and prosperous Wales with no idea of how they are
:47:46. > :47:48.going to secure that. The implications of this are they
:47:49. > :47:51.and not outting any targets down. It is hard to hold them to account,
:47:52. > :47:55.to make sure we've got an effective opposition to make sure we
:47:56. > :47:57.are effectively measuring how well Joining me now to pick the bones out
:47:58. > :48:07.of those plans and tell he how they'd do things better
:48:08. > :48:09.are Plaid's Sian Gwenllian, who's in Bangor, Caroline Jones
:48:10. > :48:25.from Ukip and Nick Ramsay Thank you all three of you for
:48:26. > :48:29.coming in. If I may start with Sian Gwenllian, you have been part of a
:48:30. > :48:34.lots of these proposals because of your agreement with the Labour
:48:35. > :48:41.Party. What did you make of them? The document is very disappointing.
:48:42. > :48:46.I think that it lacks in the action points that are now needed, there
:48:47. > :48:52.are no targets here. It is the how and what is what people are
:48:53. > :48:57.thereafter. The second point I think the lack of talk about Europe is
:48:58. > :49:02.quite apparent in this document. Taking the hard Brexit line the
:49:03. > :49:08.government are taking now, it is a placing...
:49:09. > :49:13.If you had input as a party into this document, these policies, why
:49:14. > :49:18.didn't you make your voice heard? We have published our own programme
:49:19. > :49:21.of opposition which is in direct contrast to this document. We agree
:49:22. > :49:26.on the issues that need tackling that's what we are saying is we need
:49:27. > :49:30.direct targets, we need to know but the timescales are, what the
:49:31. > :49:34.milestones are. For example, with help. We agree we need to be
:49:35. > :49:42.recruiting and training more doctors in Wales to improve the health
:49:43. > :49:45.service. Our document talks about training and recruiting 1000
:49:46. > :49:50.doctors. It goes on to explain we need to be investing in medical
:49:51. > :49:56.education, including the setting up of a medical school in Bangor. The
:49:57. > :50:03.Labour government doesn't go into that level of detail. That is one
:50:04. > :50:09.example and a lot of that is true for the whole document. It is also
:50:10. > :50:13.lacking in a vision for North Wales. Once again, we are seeing a document
:50:14. > :50:17.that is talking about the relief road from the M4, a few roundabouts
:50:18. > :50:23.for the A55. That is a North Wales Metro in their
:50:24. > :50:32.plans. Let's bring in the other guests. Nick Ramsay, looking through
:50:33. > :50:36.the headlines we have seen. Childcare, apprentices, schools,
:50:37. > :50:41.drugs fund, care homes, the M4. It is difficult to say you are not keen
:50:42. > :50:45.on the things they are proposing. We are keen on those things and
:50:46. > :50:49.those headlines are great. The points just made as a valid one. It
:50:50. > :50:57.is fine saying things that doing things is quite another. We have
:50:58. > :51:00.been waiting now 17 years for the Labour government and we're not
:51:01. > :51:04.getting the action. Yes, the North Wales Metro is a good idea but shall
:51:05. > :51:08.we deliver the Southwest Metro first.
:51:09. > :51:15.Where are the plans from the government? We have seen Plaid
:51:16. > :51:19.Cymru's plans for opposition. There are plans there.
:51:20. > :51:23.Where are the Conservative plans? We put them in our manifesto. We are
:51:24. > :51:28.supportive of these areas such as the Metro, improving infrastructure,
:51:29. > :51:32.a development bank. There is no detail as how to deliver them. To be
:51:33. > :51:36.fair to the Labour Party perhaps the Giteau come down the line. We need
:51:37. > :51:39.to see those pretty quickly because the people of Wales have waited 17
:51:40. > :51:46.years. Ukip happy with this? It would be
:51:47. > :51:49.difficult to disagree with any points on there because they are
:51:50. > :51:54.positive points. It lacks substance. That is no substance in training and
:51:55. > :51:58.recruitment. We need more doctors but we have known this for a long
:51:59. > :52:03.period of time. Where this the action been before this? We need to
:52:04. > :52:07.know how we're going to recruit doctors. How are we going to retain
:52:08. > :52:12.them? There's an element of people who do their training in Cardiff and
:52:13. > :52:20.then off they go. We don't see the benefit of the investment. What
:52:21. > :52:25.would Ukip is my proposal be then? What we need to do is listen to the
:52:26. > :52:37.Royal College of Nursing is and the doctors and the ABM, but Doctor's...
:52:38. > :52:45.BMA. Yes. My plan would be to listen and
:52:46. > :52:52.to have an look at everywhere we are failing. We need to advertise Wales
:52:53. > :52:58.Assembly people want to stay. It is a question of conditions as well.
:52:59. > :53:04.The doctors are saying it is not unusual for them to seek 80 patients
:53:05. > :53:08.during one consultation period. That isn't giving value to the patient or
:53:09. > :53:13.to the doctor. The doctors are stressed. Sian Gwenllian, one of the
:53:14. > :53:19.things Carwyn Jones said was perhaps they would be less money because of
:53:20. > :53:24.the fears he has over Brexit. You're not going to let off the hook with
:53:25. > :53:30.that are you? Are you saying, that is nonsense.
:53:31. > :53:33.About Brexit, the lack of leadership that has been shown by the Welsh
:53:34. > :53:39.Labour government is disgraceful at this point. Is he right they will be
:53:40. > :53:43.less money for these policies because of Brexit?
:53:44. > :53:49.At this moment in time we don't really know. I assume they will be
:53:50. > :53:53.less money. For agriculture, for example, I am afraid the party is
:53:54. > :53:59.going to be shrinking. We need at this point in time to be standing up
:54:00. > :54:03.for the best deal possible for Wales. I don't think the Welsh
:54:04. > :54:07.Government is doing that. There are particular models that we should be
:54:08. > :54:14.putting forward and starting the negotiation from that point. Like
:54:15. > :54:21.what? We should be advocating members of a
:54:22. > :54:25.single market. There are different models to that and we should be
:54:26. > :54:32.exploring those and putting those forward. It seems to me they
:54:33. > :54:39.accepted the hard Brexit. There is a Brexit committee meeting next week.
:54:40. > :54:43.They seem to have reached a position which is a hard Brexit position
:54:44. > :54:47.which is in line to what the Tories and Ukip are saying. It is they are
:54:48. > :54:55.not in favour of membership of the single market which, to me, is not
:54:56. > :54:58.in the best interests for Wales. They should be arguing and
:54:59. > :55:06.negotiating from that point. Caroline Jones, Sian Gwenllian
:55:07. > :55:10.referred to a a access to a single market rather than membership. Do
:55:11. > :55:13.you see those two things as being different when it comes to the free
:55:14. > :55:20.movement of labour? They are different. We want
:55:21. > :55:24.membership... We want to deal with everyone. We want to do with
:55:25. > :55:28.everyone in Europe. We feel we had any strong position to do so. We
:55:29. > :55:37.have a strong economy at the moment. As has been said before... You can't
:55:38. > :55:40.have that free access to that market unless you are also accepting free
:55:41. > :55:44.movement of labour? There will be a tariff but I don't
:55:45. > :55:49.think it'll be free movement. You are happy to have a tariff on Welsh
:55:50. > :55:53.goods being exported? There will be a tariff but we will fight for a
:55:54. > :56:00.lower tariff as possible. Nick, why do you think? We want
:56:01. > :56:05.lower tariffs. You would be happy with Harris if that is an exchange
:56:06. > :56:11.on restrictions on movement? Eyes rather we were in the single
:56:12. > :56:15.market. But at this early stage we haven't had the negotiations yet. We
:56:16. > :56:19.haven't had Article 50 invoked. It is for the government to play their
:56:20. > :56:22.part in informing those negotiations. To be fair to the
:56:23. > :56:27.First Minister, he has said he wants access to the single market. You
:56:28. > :56:31.said you wanted full membership of the single market. That is different
:56:32. > :56:35.to what your party in the Assembly has voted for.
:56:36. > :56:38.We want access to the market. If it was possible I'd like is to be the
:56:39. > :56:42.single market even though we are outside the EU. There are many
:56:43. > :56:49.models on the table and it is for the negotiations to form verse. We
:56:50. > :56:54.certainly need some form of access. We have to ensure cross-party group
:56:55. > :56:59.involves Brexit years as well as remain to get the best possible deal
:57:00. > :57:02.for Wales. What we want is the best possible deal for Wales but we can
:57:03. > :57:11.get. We want the best negotiators possible. Would you be happy on this
:57:12. > :57:15.new Brexit negotiating, to be talking on the same platform as
:57:16. > :57:21.Ukip? Is used Plaid Cymru is the only
:57:22. > :57:28.party now who are united around what we think is the best deal for Wales.
:57:29. > :57:32.Ukip, I'm not sure what's Caroline is trying to save they come it
:57:33. > :57:39.doesn't seem to me as if the Tories or Labour seem to have a particular
:57:40. > :57:41.stance to start the negotiation on. We're going down a new route with no
:57:42. > :57:43.time at all. and he said it is worse than under
:57:44. > :58:04.Stalin! Welcome back - and we're joined now
:58:05. > :58:07.by John Prescott, who's been coming to Labour Conferences
:58:08. > :58:09.for more than 50 years. And our political panel,
:58:10. > :58:15.Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi John Prescott, welcome back to the
:58:16. > :58:24.Sunday Politics and a Labour conference. In a much changed
:58:25. > :58:28.Liverpool! I can't believe it. That looks amazing. Has the Labour Party
:58:29. > :58:34.ever been at a low ahead in the past 50 is? It's an interesting question.
:58:35. > :58:39.I hear everyone going back 50 years but we've always had fierce battles
:58:40. > :58:43.in the Labour Party, whether it was nuclear or the left or the right, we
:58:44. > :58:48.used to fight over the Treasurer's vote! There have always been those
:58:49. > :58:52.strong battles. It has become more personal now, it is more abuse than
:58:53. > :58:59.argument and we've got to move away from that. Do you share the fears of
:59:00. > :59:03.your old colleague Neil Kinnock, that there might not be another
:59:04. > :59:08.Labour government in his lifetime? Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former
:59:09. > :59:16.leader of the Labour Party? When I heard him saying there will never be
:59:17. > :59:19.another Labour government in his lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did
:59:20. > :59:26.lose to elections and Michael foot lost that election. We lost with Ed
:59:27. > :59:30.Miliband... There is no doubt he's got great experience of that but he
:59:31. > :59:37.is wrong! I thought we would get to the answer! Is the Labour Party at a
:59:38. > :59:42.very low ebb? It is, but I think you're absolutely right, it is a
:59:43. > :59:45.great myth that in the past there weren't huge, passionate internal
:59:46. > :59:52.debates. Under Wilson's leadership, there were problems all over the
:59:53. > :59:56.place but he won for elections out of five, he always used to say. It
:59:57. > :00:00.has become much more personal now with the social media thing going on
:00:01. > :00:05.in that kind of raises it to a different temperature.
:00:06. > :00:11.If it was accepted they could argue over policy, as was in the past and
:00:12. > :00:14.as will be the case with the Conservatives over Brexit, then
:00:15. > :00:19.there might be a way of working around this. As things stand at the
:00:20. > :00:22.moment it is a completely nightmarish, circuitous debate where
:00:23. > :00:26.the MPs slack him off and his supporters slack them off and it
:00:27. > :00:29.gets nowhere. The danger for Labour is earlier in the programme we
:00:30. > :00:32.talked about elections to the NEC and who will hold the balance of
:00:33. > :00:36.power there and the battles coming of the argument over how to choose
:00:37. > :00:42.the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't afford another year of talking about
:00:43. > :00:46.itself. No, that is right, and the public isn't remotely interested in
:00:47. > :00:50.these very tedious internal machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn
:00:51. > :00:55.has proved himself twice. There can be no clearer message that the party
:00:56. > :00:59.really needs to put this behind them and focus on unifying. I think the
:01:00. > :01:03.other great myth, we're talking about the myths of history and time
:01:04. > :01:06.and the centre-right. The myth is that they have all the answers. They
:01:07. > :01:12.clearly don't. They haven't been able to persuade their own selectors
:01:13. > :01:17.of their own eligibility and they haven't been able to persuade the
:01:18. > :01:23.general public that a right words shifting Labour Party is preferable
:01:24. > :01:27.and desirable. So maybe it's time for them to think, you know what,
:01:28. > :01:32.Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership elections, he has caused the party
:01:33. > :01:36.to be swelled, its ranks swelled and it's the largest party in Europe and
:01:37. > :01:40.people are galvanised, motivated and energised in a way they haven't been
:01:41. > :01:43.for so long. People have been apathetic about politics for so
:01:44. > :01:47.long. May be that wing of the party has something to learn from Corbyn
:01:48. > :01:50.rather than the other way around. I couldn't get Heidi Alexander to
:01:51. > :01:56.answer this. Is there any doubt that Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the
:01:57. > :02:02.2020 election? I think there is a small doubt. He could still be
:02:03. > :02:06.toppled. Who would topple him? The unions. This massive force in Labour
:02:07. > :02:09.politics, centre-left politics, which no one has come close to
:02:10. > :02:16.talking about in the last few days, we have a huge election coming up
:02:17. > :02:21.the after next for the Unite union. Len McCluskey is running again. If
:02:22. > :02:26.he stands down, they have already lost the GMB and Unison are not fond
:02:27. > :02:31.of him, if he does go it is curtains for him. It is about fundamental
:02:32. > :02:34.change taking place. Everyone of us has got to think differently,
:02:35. > :02:39.including me. They have all got to say for the party have said this
:02:40. > :02:43.with their new members, we have a different way of doing things and we
:02:44. > :02:46.want some of the old policies rehearsed and put forward again. The
:02:47. > :02:50.changes, whether in the PLP, the trade unions or elsewhere, things
:02:51. > :02:54.have changed, it's a big change coming to the Labour Party and thank
:02:55. > :02:58.God. I remember arguing with Tony Blair whether we should call it new
:02:59. > :03:05.Labour or old Labour and he wanted to call it new Labour and I said why
:03:06. > :03:07.don't we call it Labour. There is a change in policy, they want
:03:08. > :03:12.fundamental change, they are entitled to have it, he has won two
:03:13. > :03:15.elections, why do we think of the revolutionary thought, he is our
:03:16. > :03:19.leader until the next election, get on for the ride and fight the Tories
:03:20. > :03:22.instead of fighting ourselves. There is one really good answer to that,
:03:23. > :03:27.that is all well and good but you are 26% in the polls, an all-time
:03:28. > :03:32.historic low that is where Corbyn is taking them. All too often we talk
:03:33. > :03:40.about the polls. Terrible inconvenience! Let us go along this
:03:41. > :03:45.road, see how we can do it, the PLP, let's just for the argument is about
:03:46. > :03:48.the election of the Shadow Cabinet. The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet
:03:49. > :03:52.is only two or three years ago and now it wants them back. Quite right,
:03:53. > :03:57.I support them, I've been party to them. For god sake, can get on with
:03:58. > :04:02.fighting the Tories, back the leadership for the moment? I have to
:04:03. > :04:13.say to Jeremy, talking about splits in part is, we have already
:04:14. > :04:17.wondering, Momentum crazy things, argue the case for change. Electoral
:04:18. > :04:21.College instead of one man, one vote. I've always fought for one man
:04:22. > :04:26.one vote. That would be going backwards, would it not? It would
:04:27. > :04:30.strengthen the PLP. We have to look at all of these fears and do a
:04:31. > :04:35.proper conference as I advocate, but think about it first. We have ?3
:04:36. > :04:40.members at Miliband came through and whacked that through special
:04:41. > :04:44.conference. We need to think about how we've done things in the past,
:04:45. > :04:48.trade unions, members of Parliament, PLP members, they want change, they
:04:49. > :04:52.are entitled democratically to see if we will listen to them at
:04:53. > :04:57.implement it democratically. Jeremy must show leadership. What does
:04:58. > :05:01.showing leadership mean? There are two things. The election of a Shadow
:05:02. > :05:08.Cabinet if you want to do that. Elected by whom? That could be the
:05:09. > :05:12.PLP to begin with. We can't wait until the conference comes along,
:05:13. > :05:19.11th of October. These things are constitutional. In the coming
:05:20. > :05:24.elections he is the leader, he could put in people he feels he has to
:05:25. > :05:27.have their in the Shadow Cabinet, because it's all about power
:05:28. > :05:30.distribution, and give the PLP the right to put some people in and then
:05:31. > :05:35.look at the issues of whether other members should be involved. That's
:05:36. > :05:39.the long-term. At the moment a team ready for fighting Theresa May, she
:05:40. > :05:45.will be worse than Thatcher. We are here in the great traditional Labour
:05:46. > :05:49.city, the heartland of traditional Labour support. Does anybody in
:05:50. > :05:52.Liverpool care how the Shadow Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet
:05:53. > :05:57.people just outside this building are talking about that. They will be
:05:58. > :06:01.because they are journalists! I don't even think they will be! In a
:06:02. > :06:05.way we are contradicting ourselves because we are saying we should not
:06:06. > :06:07.spend time talking about it and we are all talking about it. The
:06:08. > :06:12.so-called rebels misjudged this completely in terms of timing, when
:06:13. > :06:15.they all resigned on the Sunday after the referendum, they didn't
:06:16. > :06:18.ask, do we have a candidate? What happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go
:06:19. > :06:22.as a result of this and have they got themes that can unite the rest
:06:23. > :06:31.of the membership, or a new membership could to? We keep talking
:06:32. > :06:35.about the voters. Let's not talk about the Shadow Cabinet because
:06:36. > :06:38.that is an insider conversation. About the voters, we don't know
:06:39. > :06:45.whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable or not. We don't know how he would
:06:46. > :06:50.fare with a united team behind him with over 500,000 members
:06:51. > :06:56.canvassing, campaigning, talking about his policies. We don't know if
:06:57. > :07:01.for this time, in a time when we are dealing with massive inequalities,
:07:02. > :07:04.when we're dealing with rampant... Just, food banks, child poverty and
:07:05. > :07:07.things that should not happen in one of the wealthiest countries in the
:07:08. > :07:11.world. We don't know whether what the Labour Party proposes under
:07:12. > :07:14.Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will have a chance to find out. One of
:07:15. > :07:18.the things that is interesting is that clearly the membership of the
:07:19. > :07:21.party has changed dramatically, even in the past 12 months. Will the
:07:22. > :07:27.Parliamentary party change as a result of that? There has been talk
:07:28. > :07:34.of the and reselection. This is what Mr Corbyn had to say this morning.
:07:35. > :07:37.The relationship between an MP and their
:07:38. > :07:40.It's not necessarily all the policy tick
:07:41. > :07:42.It's also the relationships, the community, the
:07:43. > :07:44.effectiveness of representation and all those issues.
:07:45. > :07:46.Let's have a democratic discussion and I think the vast
:07:47. > :07:53.majority of MPs will have no problem whatsoever.
:07:54. > :08:00.Is it's not inevitable, given that you've talked about it yourself,
:08:01. > :08:04.this huge change taking place in the Labour Party membership, that the
:08:05. > :08:08.Parliamentary party will have to change to reflect that? To some
:08:09. > :08:13.extent the PLP is the creation of the previous membership, not the new
:08:14. > :08:16.membership. That is right. Some people were opposing him within
:08:17. > :08:19.weeks when he was elected and pulling out of the cabinet and I
:08:20. > :08:23.don't think they will change. They might want to stay on the
:08:24. > :08:26.backbenches, they don't want to divide the party so they will fight
:08:27. > :08:31.for the party from the backbenches. The greater majority of those in the
:08:32. > :08:33.PLP they didn't want to go on this road of no confidence, that was one
:08:34. > :08:37.when they were kidded into believing that if they had a begin of no
:08:38. > :08:41.confidence he would pick of the revolver and shoot himself. It never
:08:42. > :08:50.was going to happen. So let's say, keep your view, if you don't want to
:08:51. > :08:53.get involved, fine, but now you are required to take account, looking at
:08:54. > :09:01.the policy issues between us rather than fighting ourselves. He has got
:09:02. > :09:04.to show leadership. He is the man in charge of it. That's why the
:09:05. > :09:09.election of the Capanagh has become more important inside the PLP. It's
:09:10. > :09:13.a struggle, isn't it? The PLP produced a whole package of things
:09:14. > :09:17.with electoral reform. Let's get on with that, put it on the side, get a
:09:18. > :09:21.team ready for October the 11th to fight the Tories are using our
:09:22. > :09:25.energy and fighting the Tories and I think the majority of MPs are on
:09:26. > :09:28.board for that. Will Rachel get to see her united Labour Party behind
:09:29. > :09:35.Mr Corbyn going into another election? No. This is it. We have to
:09:36. > :09:39.look at the facts on the table, the Labour Party, the PLP and the people
:09:40. > :09:42.in the country, those people who voted for Owen Smith, they are so
:09:43. > :09:47.far apart ideologically, the hard left and there is the Blairite right
:09:48. > :09:50.and those two will never unite and it's all very well John saying so
:09:51. > :09:55.and I admire your optimism but you and I know it will not happen. It
:09:56. > :10:00.has got to for our people. The party and our country wants it. If your
:10:01. > :10:04.press get onside instead of being so vicious about Corbyn, not just your
:10:05. > :10:09.paper, but most of them have had a kind of hostility that has not been
:10:10. > :10:18.seen before. It has taken ten minutes but eventually we got there.
:10:19. > :10:22.Perhaps we will wait and see. The ideological gap is as big as the
:10:23. > :10:25.80s, partly because on both sides there is a complete lack of clarity
:10:26. > :10:31.about what they believe in and where they want to go. The early 80s, Roy
:10:32. > :10:36.Jenkins knew exactly what there were four and so did Tony Benn. There is
:10:37. > :10:41.that clarity of vision now. It is all blurred and muddled so there is
:10:42. > :10:45.a problem and an opportunity there. Second, I think the crunch point in
:10:46. > :10:50.this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn, not now obviously, but if and when
:10:51. > :10:57.the Tories have a crisis over Brexit and if at that point Labour are 25,
:10:58. > :11:01.20 6% in the polls he will have a crisis. Let me interrupt you because
:11:02. > :11:05.the really big political event yesterday wasn't what was happening
:11:06. > :11:12.here in Liverpool, it happened on BBC One on your TV screens. It was
:11:13. > :11:15.Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how that went.
:11:16. > :11:26.Dancing the waltz, Ed Balls and Katya Jones.
:11:27. > :11:45.There we go, glitter balls on strictly. I bet you wish you had
:11:46. > :11:54.been there. I turned it down some time ago. So did I! What was the
:11:55. > :11:58.woman who did it? Edwina. BBC journalists, the public like people
:11:59. > :12:03.like that and supported in many ways but they fall out because they can't
:12:04. > :12:08.dance. That is a drawback. They love them for not dancing, they love the
:12:09. > :12:13.fact they are trying. But they didn't win. I love dancing myself,
:12:14. > :12:17.but frankly you've got to have some movement. There has got to be a flow
:12:18. > :12:22.in the body and the feel of the music. I think you've got it there!
:12:23. > :12:28.You want to do it, I can tell! Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That
:12:29. > :12:34.is not dancing, it's about the movement of the body, the music and
:12:35. > :12:43.the spirit. You should be a judge on the programme. I give it eight!
:12:44. > :12:49.Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn, they love this, it humanises it. You
:12:50. > :12:56.can see a petition to get him on. I can see it happening. We may have to
:12:57. > :13:01.speak to compliance about it! Anyway, it has become a part of the
:13:02. > :13:03.Constitution that you and I have to meet at a Labour conference, so it's
:13:04. > :13:07.good to see you. Two comedians together. One day we might get a
:13:08. > :13:09.proper job! I'll be back next week
:13:10. > :13:14.at the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham
:13:15. > :13:15.with more Sunday Politics. And I'll be back tomorrow
:13:16. > :13:18.with the Daily Politics at 11am over on BBC Two with more
:13:19. > :13:26.from the Labour Conference We will bring you what is happening
:13:27. > :13:29.in the Labour conference and the Shadow Chancellor's speech too.
:13:30. > :13:34.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.