:00:36. > :00:40.Theresa May was cheered by the Tory faithful
:00:41. > :00:44.as she charted her vision for Brexit.
:00:45. > :00:47.We'll be talking about the plan - or what we know of it -
:00:48. > :00:49.with Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and former Tory Cabinet
:00:50. > :00:54.The olive branch might have withered but Jeremy Corbyn has
:00:55. > :00:56.stamped his authority on the Labour Party
:00:57. > :00:59.with a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle that's rewarded allies
:01:00. > :01:06.And one Ukip MEP is still in hospital following an altercation
:01:07. > :01:11.Just what exactly happened in a week which has seen
:01:12. > :01:20.The man who wrote the blueprint for council reform says
:01:21. > :01:21.he's disappointed it won't be implemented.
:01:22. > :01:24.And what next for the Wales Bill as peers get the chance
:01:25. > :01:34.But what can the mayor and London's councils expect to get?
:01:35. > :01:39.And we'll be talking about the tape that's derailing Donald Trump's bid
:01:40. > :01:44.We've also reshuffled our own top team here in the studio,
:01:45. > :01:47.and we've ended up with three journalists who show all the unity
:01:48. > :01:57.the humour of a Conservative Party conference speech,
:01:58. > :02:08.and the anger management of a meeting of Ukip MEPS.
:02:09. > :02:13.that means they'll probably be fighting in a few minutes.
:02:14. > :02:16.Yes, it's Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:02:17. > :02:18.So, where else would we start but with Brexit?
:02:19. > :02:20.And the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has been talking
:02:21. > :02:24.He coined a new term - full Brexit - and he was asked
:02:25. > :02:26.if Britain was going to be leaving the EU's single market.
:02:27. > :02:32.This is Brexit. This is full Brexit if you like. We are going to be
:02:33. > :02:38.outside the European Union but we still, because it is over 40% of our
:02:39. > :02:45.trade, we still want to maximise our trade with it. A final question in
:02:46. > :02:49.the papers today. You see soft Brexiteers briefing against hard
:02:50. > :02:54.Brexiteers and vice versa. This is terribly damaging for the Cabinet
:02:55. > :03:01.presumably. We are all Brexiteers now. We have to make a success of
:03:02. > :03:02.it. So, a lot of briefing against Mr Hammond after his speech to the Tory
:03:03. > :03:13.conference. Then Mr Hammond's people briefing
:03:14. > :03:18.against people like Liam Fox David Davis, Boris Johnson. Today, one
:03:19. > :03:23.phrase was they were talking nonsense and garbage. When did we
:03:24. > :03:32.get the first Brexit resignation? A good question. We have full Brexit,
:03:33. > :03:37.open and close Brexit, hard and soft Brexit. The Prime Minister does not
:03:38. > :03:41.want to provide a running commentary so ministers are trying to tell us
:03:42. > :03:45.nothing but in interesting ways. I do not think anyone will resign but
:03:46. > :03:47.what is interesting as you get a situation where everyone is a
:03:48. > :03:51.Brexiteer now but there were very different views about how this is
:03:52. > :03:55.going to go forward. The Prime Minister herself, she did two things
:03:56. > :03:58.last week. She gave a speech for a domestic audience and a foreign
:03:59. > :04:05.audience. She is trying to embody the hopes and dreams of a group of
:04:06. > :04:08.people who feel they have been left out, the people who have been left
:04:09. > :04:10.behind on the domestic front and also voted for Brexit. By embodying
:04:11. > :04:15.those people fighting for their causes she is having to take a hard
:04:16. > :04:19.line on immigration. There may be no one about to resign now but we are
:04:20. > :04:25.only 100 days into this many government and the briefing on both
:04:26. > :04:30.sides of the so-called hard Brexit versus the so-called soft Brexit was
:04:31. > :04:35.the Treasury. It seems to embody the soft Brexit approach. The briefing
:04:36. > :04:40.is fierce. It is going to lead to trouble, to blood. This is a
:04:41. > :04:44.peak-time will stop we have just come away from the Tory Party
:04:45. > :04:48.conference where every journalist worth their salt is working the
:04:49. > :04:52.party circuit, going to dinners. It is an easy agenda to get every
:04:53. > :04:56.cabinet minister you lunch or dine with to give you their version of
:04:57. > :05:01.what Brexit said -- should mean. There is a melting pot here which is
:05:02. > :05:06.bubbling away. Things may become more disciplined in the week ahead.
:05:07. > :05:10.I do not think it is sustainable for Theresa May to say she will not give
:05:11. > :05:15.a running commentary. It is a red rag to every journalist and all her
:05:16. > :05:18.own Cabinet. You cannot keep that going for the next few months. She
:05:19. > :05:24.will have to give a clearer guide as to whether it is hard, soft, in or
:05:25. > :05:33.out, whatever it is. Theresa May is going to have to deploy the smack or
:05:34. > :05:37.firm government. She has been smacking away already. All three
:05:38. > :05:40.Brexit is happening to be airing personal opinions. The fact they are
:05:41. > :05:44.ministers in charge of this is totally irrelevant. There is
:05:45. > :05:48.political and economic things at work. What no one will say is that
:05:49. > :05:52.you can have hard Brexit but it will probably almost certainly have
:05:53. > :05:55.economic consequences. How do you go as a politician of the country and
:05:56. > :06:02.say we hear you want to control Iraq -- immigration but that means the
:06:03. > :06:07.country will be poorer? People will always be straddling it in a really
:06:08. > :06:10.uncomfortable way. OK. We'll be talking more about this as the
:06:11. > :06:14.programme goes on, you will not be surprised to hear.
:06:15. > :06:16.This week, Theresa May closed her party's conference
:06:17. > :06:18.with a speech designed to grab the centre ground
:06:19. > :06:21.She positioned the Conservatives as champion of the working classes
:06:22. > :06:23.and pledged to help those left behind by globalisation.
:06:24. > :06:26.We'll wait to see what any of that that means in practice.
:06:27. > :06:29.But it was what she had to say about Britain's exit
:06:30. > :06:32.from the EU that had the biggest immediate impact,
:06:33. > :06:36.not least on the value of the pound, as the world began to get a clearer
:06:37. > :06:46.We now know when the process of leaving the EU will begin.
:06:47. > :06:49.Theresa May has set a deadline of the end of next March
:06:50. > :06:51.for triggering Article 50, which formally begins the Brexit
:06:52. > :06:55.That allows only two years to do a deal, so we should be out
:06:56. > :06:59.of the EU by the end of March 2019 by the latest.
:07:00. > :07:02.The Government will also introduce a so-called Great Repeal
:07:03. > :07:06.Bill next year, which will end our membership of the EU.
:07:07. > :07:08.Theresa May talked of Britain being a fully
:07:09. > :07:14.The Prime Minister also said she will prioritise
:07:15. > :07:15.controlling immigration by ending the free movement
:07:16. > :07:20.Because being subject to the European Court of Justice
:07:21. > :07:22.and free movement are key requirements of membership
:07:23. > :07:25.of the EU single market, this strongly suggests the Prime
:07:26. > :07:29.Minister does not see Britain remaining a member.
:07:30. > :07:35.But there were some mixed messages about life after Brexit.
:07:36. > :07:39.The ability of EU citizens to stay in the UK remains a grey area.
:07:40. > :07:45.Brexit secretary David Davis said they would be 100% able to stay
:07:46. > :07:48.while Theresa May struck a more cautious tone.
:07:49. > :07:50.And Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plan to shame firms that
:07:51. > :07:57.take on foreign, rather than British, staff, faced a backlash
:07:58. > :07:58.from business and political opponents.
:07:59. > :08:03.There was also a range of mood music about life as we head for the door.
:08:04. > :08:06.Chancellor Philip Hammond was at one end, warning the country
:08:07. > :08:10.to brace for a roller-coaster ride ahead.
:08:11. > :08:12.But Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson attacked what he called
:08:13. > :08:15.gloomadon poppers and said Britain would be more active on the world
:08:16. > :08:22.Well, I'm joined now by the Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron.
:08:23. > :08:25.And the former Conservative Cabinet minister, Iain Duncan Smith.
:08:26. > :08:38.Let me come straight to the point, first of all with you, Iain Duncan
:08:39. > :08:43.Smith. Is it now clear that whatever relationship we will have with the
:08:44. > :08:49.single market, we will not be a member of the single market when
:08:50. > :08:54.Brexit is complete? I think when you add all these things together, it
:08:55. > :08:57.becomes, I believe, is pretty clear that what the Prime Minister said,
:08:58. > :09:05.what has been said by a number of Cabinet ministers, if the centre of
:09:06. > :09:09.our negotiations is that we intend to control our borders and the flow
:09:10. > :09:14.of migrants from the European Union, which has caused, in some cases, a
:09:15. > :09:18.great deal of damage to workers and their incomes at the bottom level,
:09:19. > :09:22.the skilled level, that means there is no way that the European Union
:09:23. > :09:29.will be able to allow us to be a member of the single market. That is
:09:30. > :09:33.not the same as access. Tim Farron, do you accept that is the way we are
:09:34. > :09:38.going? Whatever access arrangements we have, and we will have some
:09:39. > :09:44.arrangements. Even North Korea has access to the single market. But we
:09:45. > :09:49.won't be a member. That looks to be the way the Government is taking us.
:09:50. > :09:53.It is a massive mistake. I think Ian is wrong to say there has been a
:09:54. > :09:58.massive decision in favour of us leaving the single market and if
:09:59. > :10:11.that is what he is implying. It is given that a small majority voted to
:10:12. > :10:14.leave the EU but no one voted to leave the common or single market.
:10:15. > :10:16.It seems to me to be flying in the face of all the economic indicators
:10:17. > :10:19.of whatever the British people want, or is best for British jobs. It
:10:20. > :10:21.seems, for the Conservative Party, to be a reinterpretation of the
:10:22. > :10:29.result for a hard Brexit that nobody voted for. That is strong point. We
:10:30. > :10:34.do not have too much time this morning, so I'm going to try to keep
:10:35. > :10:38.this moving quickly. How do respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith? It is
:10:39. > :10:43.utter rubbish. The British people made it clear decision. They were
:10:44. > :10:49.asked a simple question. Do you want to stay in or leave the European
:10:50. > :10:53.Union? Were they asked whether they wanted to leave the single market?
:10:54. > :10:56.You need to have a look at the rules around this. The single market as
:10:57. > :11:03.part of the European Union, whether you like it or not. Do you think we
:11:04. > :11:10.should be in the single market? Do you agree with the overwhelming
:11:11. > :11:13.majority? No, no. I am sorry. The massive benefits which exist are
:11:14. > :11:17.asked to be able to trade with the European Union and have access.
:11:18. > :11:22.America has access. They sell more to the European Union than we do.
:11:23. > :11:27.Hold on. There is no point talking over each other because you are too
:11:28. > :11:32.far-away. Let me come to Tim Farron. If you want to be in the single
:11:33. > :11:37.market, you have to accept free movement. You have to accept the
:11:38. > :11:41.jurisdiction of the European port. In effect, that is membership of the
:11:42. > :11:54.EU. Isn't that what we voted against? -- the European Court. Tim
:11:55. > :12:00.Farron I am talking to. The reality is, and I accept the result of the
:12:01. > :12:04.referendum. It is the direction of the United Kingdom being towards the
:12:05. > :12:14.European Union as we stand. The deal we get at the end, as Lord Kurt, the
:12:15. > :12:19.writer of Article 50, agreed with me overnight because destination is not
:12:20. > :12:23.the same. You cannot start this process with democracy and end up
:12:24. > :12:26.with a stitch up, which is what the British people will get. Many people
:12:27. > :12:30.around the country voted to leave the European Union but there will
:12:31. > :12:36.not agree, I am certain, with having imposed upon them complete exit from
:12:37. > :12:41.any relationship with the nearest market and friends and neighbours,
:12:42. > :12:47.which will cost tens and hundreds of thousands of jobs. Let me get you to
:12:48. > :12:51.respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith. When article 50 was drafted, he did
:12:52. > :12:55.not mean it to help any country leave, he deliberately designed it
:12:56. > :12:59.so it would make it so difficult to leave it would almost be nigh on
:13:00. > :13:03.impossible. The second thing about the point that Tim makes, which is
:13:04. > :13:12.complete nonsense, is the added that we will lose tens of thousands of
:13:13. > :13:14.jobs. What we are looking for is a free trade relationship with the
:13:15. > :13:17.European Union. That is the key point. We are not leaving Europe, we
:13:18. > :13:23.are leaving the European Union. This is the problem. There is not a
:13:24. > :13:29.problem in that for common-sense and decent people. Hold on, Tim Farron.
:13:30. > :13:35.Sterling has slumped at the prospect of hard Brexit as it has dawned on
:13:36. > :13:41.the markets that the Government is heading for a so-called hard Brexit.
:13:42. > :13:45.Doesn't that give you pause for thought? Doesn't it make you think
:13:46. > :13:50.it might not be the right course? If you go to the airport at the moment,
:13:51. > :13:56.you would be lucky to get 1 euro for ?1. Doesn't that make you think? Not
:13:57. > :14:00.really. What you know about the free-flowing currency is it will
:14:01. > :14:04.fall and rise in accordance with what people speculate about and the
:14:05. > :14:10.prospects for the future. The point to look at is what the underlying
:14:11. > :14:14.story is for UK business. It used to be that the BBC generally spent its
:14:15. > :14:20.whole time telling us how terrible things work if you look at the FTSE
:14:21. > :14:26.250 or the FTSE 100. In the same period we have seen the FTSE 250,
:14:27. > :14:29.the small and medium companies, at record levels high. Much higher than
:14:30. > :14:34.before we decided to leave the European Union. Here is the other
:14:35. > :14:39.point. There is hugely a story about a strong dollar. The pound rose
:14:40. > :14:47.against the yen was the dollar rose against the euro, the yen, and the
:14:48. > :14:55.pout. Here is the deal. The pound is doing our supporters a of good. --
:14:56. > :15:01.the pound. There is no point heckling. That is my job. The point
:15:02. > :15:08.is that the pound having fallen means British business is doing very
:15:09. > :15:12.well. And that is a very good thing. Other than the slump in Stirling,
:15:13. > :15:20.what has gone wrong for the UK economy since the 23rd of June?
:15:21. > :15:27.First of all, I am not saying everything is completely calamitous.
:15:28. > :15:30.I take the views of all of the business leaders, people who wrote
:15:31. > :15:34.to the Financial Times yesterday, people who are former members of the
:15:35. > :15:37.Prime Minister's business advisory council, who say that whatever your
:15:38. > :15:42.view on leaving the European Union, departure from the single market
:15:43. > :15:48.would be calamitous. Really worrying indicator, this 31 year low drop in
:15:49. > :15:51.the pound, and we have not even left yet. That is what worries me. And
:15:52. > :15:57.what worries me more than anything else is that you've got the British
:15:58. > :16:01.business community, who now feel that the Conservative Party are
:16:02. > :16:04.listening to the English nationalist forces that have taken over the Tory
:16:05. > :16:09.party, rather than to good common-sense business practice. When
:16:10. > :16:14.Roger, who, the Ukip MEP, tells you that you have gone too far here,
:16:15. > :16:19.then you probably have gone too far. Iain Duncan Smith, let me bring you
:16:20. > :16:23.back in. We haven't got time for speeches this morning, from either
:16:24. > :16:27.of you. Iain Duncan Smith - don't we need to give just a bit on free
:16:28. > :16:32.movement, to secure open access? If we want really good access to the
:16:33. > :16:37.single market, we will have to give something on free movement?
:16:38. > :16:41.Actually, I wrote about a week ago in a paper which set out how you
:16:42. > :16:45.have control of your migration policy which is flexible enough to
:16:46. > :16:49.allow people to come into jobs inside the UK or outside the UK. And
:16:50. > :16:52.that is the kind of flexibility which leaves the British Government
:16:53. > :16:56.controlling the idea about how you access work through work permits.
:16:57. > :16:59.That means for higher skilled people, it will be a very light
:17:00. > :17:03.touch regime, but for the low skilled, which is where the most
:17:04. > :17:07.damage has been done, you have tight regime. You say, listen to British
:17:08. > :17:10.businesses - these are the self appointed losers of British
:17:11. > :17:15.business. That meet you something - these are the same people who told
:17:16. > :17:19.us before that Brexit... They told us, just like you did, Tim, that we
:17:20. > :17:23.would crash and burn afterwards, there would be a calamitous fall,
:17:24. > :17:31.the British economy would be destroyed. Some of us had a more
:17:32. > :17:39.lofty view. I wish everybody would get calm because what we want is
:17:40. > :17:43.Britain to do well. It is not my party... I have got one more
:17:44. > :17:50.question for you, Tim Farron - why have you now lost a second here in
:17:51. > :17:54.the House of Lords, Baroness Manzoor, who says you are not
:17:55. > :17:56.recognising the will of the people in the referendum by calling for a
:17:57. > :18:04.second referendum? She has joined the Tories, so that's Brive - how
:18:05. > :18:09.many more to go? Well, we are 20,000 up, Andrew. It is a peculiar
:18:10. > :18:12.decision which I totally respect. You only need to look at what's
:18:13. > :18:17.happened since June, with the Liberal Democrats gaining 20,000
:18:18. > :18:20.members. Thousands of them from the Conservatives, hundreds since their
:18:21. > :18:23.conference last week. You look at the by-election gains, the Liberal
:18:24. > :18:31.Democrats winning 18 in the last few months, and half of them... You are
:18:32. > :18:39.not set to lose her? I am always sad to lose people, but I am joined
:18:40. > :18:43.overjoyed to have gained 20,000. Come and joiners in the studio next
:18:44. > :18:46.time, where we can get a proper grip on this debate!
:18:47. > :18:48.With Parliament returning tomorrow, Jeremy Corbyn has been
:18:49. > :18:50.reshuffling his Shadow Cabinet, following his thumping win in this
:18:51. > :18:54.And unlike previous reshuffles, it's been a pretty decisive affair,
:18:55. > :18:56.which has seen him give big jobs to his supporters.
:18:57. > :19:01.Mr Corbyn has moved ally Dianne Abbott to Shadow
:19:02. > :19:03.Home Secretary, keeping Emily Thornberry at Shadow
:19:04. > :19:06.Foreign Secretary and moving Clive Lewis to Business.
:19:07. > :19:16.He's been replaced on the Defence brief by Nia Griffith,
:19:17. > :19:22.There's also a job for new Labour peer Shami Chakrabarti,
:19:23. > :19:24.who recently carried out a report into anti-semitism in the party.
:19:25. > :19:27.And chief whip Rosie Winterton is out.
:19:28. > :19:32.She's replaced by the veteran whip Nick Brown.
:19:33. > :19:37.You may remember him from the Gordon Brown years.
:19:38. > :19:39.Mr Corbyn has also brought back a number
:19:40. > :19:41.of Shadow Cabinet members, who resigned in protest
:19:42. > :19:44.They include Jon Ashworth, as Shadow Health Secretary.
:19:45. > :19:47.Although he's also been removed from the National Executive
:19:48. > :19:49.Committee, Labour's ruling body, where power has been finely balanced
:19:50. > :19:59.Well, to discuss this, we're joined by the Labour MP, John Mann.
:20:00. > :20:07.John Mann, who is a Corbynite critic. Mr Corbyn says this is the
:20:08. > :20:11.most diverse shadow cabinet ever, the best team to take Labour forward
:20:12. > :20:15.- what do you say? Well, it's his choice of team. And I think we
:20:16. > :20:19.should get on with the job now. Think he has won, whether people
:20:20. > :20:28.like it or not. And the last and we want I think is a year of
:20:29. > :20:34.internalised, inward looking navel-gazing. Like the last year?
:20:35. > :20:37.Like the last year. And I have said, I was not in favour of the timing of
:20:38. > :20:41.this challenge, but we actually have to get to grips with the referendum
:20:42. > :20:46.result and the fact that quite a lot of Labour voters voted to leave,
:20:47. > :20:50.unlike the general view in the Labour Party. There's lots of issues
:20:51. > :20:53.we should be looking at, but we should not be looking inwards. Is
:20:54. > :20:56.there much of an olive branch from Mr Corbyn to the Parliamentary
:20:57. > :21:00.Labour Party in this? I would not call it an olive branch. But if I
:21:01. > :21:06.was him, I would have done pretty much what he has done. He's won the
:21:07. > :21:10.election. If I was leader, I might choose different people. That
:21:11. > :21:14.probably goes for everyone of the 200-plus members of the
:21:15. > :21:19.Parliamentary party. But I think there is a bit of a... The idea you
:21:20. > :21:26.can negotiate a shadow cabinet or cabinet, I mean, it's important that
:21:27. > :21:29.he has all viewpoints represented somewhere, otherwise we'll be much
:21:30. > :21:33.weaker. And so we wait to see whether every view is going to get
:21:34. > :21:42.proper Leanne Wood. That's vital. But he's got to make the choices. --
:21:43. > :21:50.every view is going to get properly aired.. Quite a lot of London
:21:51. > :21:53.representation - how does that help people like you in the north and the
:21:54. > :21:58.Midlands? It's following the trends of Tony Blair, was always keen on
:21:59. > :22:02.having lots of people who worked in London, and Ed Miliband even more
:22:03. > :22:07.so. So it is not a new trait. He's chosen the people, but what's
:22:08. > :22:10.crucial is, with ceremony people from the metropolitan area, that
:22:11. > :22:15.they spend a lot of time out in areas like mean, not talking to the
:22:16. > :22:19.members, not doing photocalls, they can do that if they want, but going
:22:20. > :22:23.and talking to voters. If they do that, I've got no objection. If they
:22:24. > :22:27.don't, then that will mean that there is not sufficient knowledge of
:22:28. > :22:32.what the wider electorate is thinking. Those shadow cabinet
:22:33. > :22:38.members, every week, should be out there knocking on real doors, in
:22:39. > :22:42.areas that perhaps they are not too familiar with. Keir Starmer, your
:22:43. > :22:49.new shadow Brexit secretary, he has said that there should be a vote on
:22:50. > :22:53.article 50, that when the Government moves it, Parliament should vote.
:22:54. > :22:57.What do you think of that? Well, let's see what... We are quite a way
:22:58. > :23:01.away from seeing what Google is going to do. I think what is vital
:23:02. > :23:08.in terms of Brexit is actually to get into the detail, because there's
:23:09. > :23:13.a lot of slogans, the full Brexit, the soft Brexit, the hard Brexit...
:23:14. > :23:20.Actually, the issue is, what access do we get to markets, what access do
:23:21. > :23:24.we give to our markets? And is there any form of restriction on the free
:23:25. > :23:30.movement of labour? They are the three big issues. We need detail.
:23:31. > :23:32.And it's the negotiation not in the British Parliament but with the
:23:33. > :23:37.Germans and the French in particular that is vital. And of course that
:23:38. > :23:40.hasn't begun. Mr Corbyn told us at the Labour Party conference that he
:23:41. > :23:44.was not really that interested in controlling immigration. Keir
:23:45. > :23:50.Starmer said this morning on the BBC that immigration has become down -
:23:51. > :23:54.you must encouraged by that? What a coalition! Keir Starmer as the
:23:55. > :23:59.person responsible I hope we'll be talking to those of us who supported
:24:00. > :24:03.the Leave campaign in the Vale, and more fundamentally, getting out of
:24:04. > :24:09.those areas where the vast majority of Labour voters voted to leave. If
:24:10. > :24:14.he's going to do his job properly, that is critical. I'm confident that
:24:15. > :24:17.he will do that. Do you know yet what the party policy is on
:24:18. > :24:21.immigration? I'm sure that will emerge over the time. I do not know
:24:22. > :24:25.what the Conservative Party's ease, either. We do not know what the
:24:26. > :24:30.response of the Germans and the French will be. They have got
:24:31. > :24:35.elections next year. This is rather a movable feast in those countries.
:24:36. > :24:39.Therefore, we should be in 20 new negotiations, as Labour. It's
:24:40. > :24:46.crucial that our leadership talks and listens to Labour voters and to
:24:47. > :24:49.those who have voted Labour in the past.
:24:50. > :24:53.Jeremy Corbyn's re-shuffle has upset the Chair
:24:54. > :24:58.He represents the party's backbench MPs.
:24:59. > :25:01.In an e-mail, John Cryer said Mr Corbyn "did not
:25:02. > :25:03.engage" in a promised plan to reunite the party by allowing MPs
:25:04. > :25:08.Mr Cryer said he had been in talks with the leadership
:25:09. > :25:12.with the aim of "striking an agreement which would allow
:25:13. > :25:15.some places to be filled through elections, while the leader
:25:16. > :25:19.But on Wednesday it became clear "a reshuffle was under way,
:25:20. > :25:26.which had not been discussed or mentioned".
:25:27. > :25:27.Well, we're joined now by Barry Gardiner.
:25:28. > :25:37.He's kept his job as Shadow International Trade Secretary.
:25:38. > :25:43.What happened to the idea of electing at least part of the Shadow
:25:44. > :25:49.Cabinet? Well, I was part of the discussions in the Shadow Cabinet,
:25:50. > :25:53.with Rosie Winterton, who was the chief whip. And she made it very
:25:54. > :25:57.clear that what would need to happen is, there would need to be a vote
:25:58. > :26:02.first of all at the NEC to change the party rules. So I don't think
:26:03. > :26:06.anybody was under any illusion that we could have direct elections now
:26:07. > :26:10.to the Shadow Cabinet without that change in the party rules. Is the
:26:11. > :26:15.idea dead for the foreseeable future? Doormen, is the honest
:26:16. > :26:19.answer. That is for Jeremy to decide. But I think what would be
:26:20. > :26:25.clearly wrong is, if we now going to almost rerunning what was the
:26:26. > :26:29.election contest. And it would be foolish to saddle a leader with a
:26:30. > :26:33.group of people in the Shadow Cabinet that were out of sympathy.
:26:34. > :26:39.And indeed, that was why the Parliamentary Labour Party, when Ed
:26:40. > :26:42.Miliband asked us to give him the right to appoint the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:43. > :26:48.rather than the previous system, which had been elected... What do
:26:49. > :26:52.you make of the chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party, Mr
:26:53. > :26:57.Cryer, complaining that Mr Corbyn did not engage with him in this
:26:58. > :27:04.reshuffle? Look, I don't know what discussions took place. John is a
:27:05. > :27:09.very good friend. He's a very good representative of the PLP, as its
:27:10. > :27:12.chair. But he's one of the best connected people in the party, and
:27:13. > :27:19.the idea that anything took face without his knowledge I find it
:27:20. > :27:22.difficult to believe. He says, Niall Quinn OMP backing him up was a
:27:23. > :27:27.charades in the negotiations? That is a separate question. And I don't
:27:28. > :27:34.think that's true at all. Because the Shadow Cabinet said to the
:27:35. > :27:38.previous NEC meeting delegation, to actually initiate those
:27:39. > :27:44.negotiations. But I think John Mann, who sat here just a few moments ago,
:27:45. > :27:48.got it absolutely right - the Labour Party now must not look inwards for
:27:49. > :27:51.the next year, it must begin to look outwards. It must be challenging the
:27:52. > :27:58.government on what it is doing in our education system and saying, it
:27:59. > :28:00.is wrong to segregate our children. They must be challenging the
:28:01. > :28:06.government on housing and homelessness. I am delighted that
:28:07. > :28:09.John has come back into the Shadow Cabinet, nobody better to take
:28:10. > :28:13.forward our fight for housing in this country. If you want to appeal
:28:14. > :28:17.across the country, are there not too many London metropolitan types
:28:18. > :28:21.at the top? The four great Shadow offices of state all seemed to come
:28:22. > :28:27.from within walking distance of each other. It's a kind of shadow cabinet
:28:28. > :28:31.of all BMW one talents? Well, you could ever welcomed the fact that
:28:32. > :28:47.two of those great offices of state, for the first time ever, are held by
:28:48. > :28:53.women. -- NW1 talents. Broomstick is, it is very London centric. It is
:28:54. > :28:57.not because you have got five MPs from the north-east in the Shadow
:28:58. > :29:01.Cabinet, four from Greater Manchester, all of whom are women.
:29:02. > :29:05.You've got five from Yorkshire. In terms of the population of the
:29:06. > :29:14.country as a whole, it's very representative of whether Labour
:29:15. > :29:19.votes are. John Ashworth accepted the Shadow bridge but is no longer
:29:20. > :29:24.on the National Executive Committee. Does Mr Corbyn now have a majority
:29:25. > :29:30.on the NEC, the ruling body of the Labour Party? The majority would
:29:31. > :29:35.always be on issue by issue. I don't think anybody goes to the NEC
:29:36. > :29:39.determined to wage wall or battle. I assure that people go there to
:29:40. > :29:42.listen to arguments and decide what is in the best interest of the party
:29:43. > :29:47.and the country and take Ossetians accordingly. Why was it important
:29:48. > :29:54.that Mr Ashworth stepped down? I don't know whether it was important.
:29:55. > :29:59.John has been a superb member of the Shadow Cabinet. He has always
:30:00. > :30:03.represented very clearly the views of party members, and I think he
:30:04. > :30:14.will do a fantastic job at health. We will leave it there.
:30:15. > :30:22.I still have energy and can. When we last spoke, I put it to you that we
:30:23. > :30:28.were massive importers of energy including gas. I came here primed
:30:29. > :30:34.for that. Next time I will bring the power with meat!
:30:35. > :30:40.The party with the third highest vote share at the general election
:30:41. > :30:41.has, just since Tuesday, lost a leader, seen
:30:42. > :30:44.the return of Nigel Farage - even if only temporarily -
:30:45. > :30:47.and seen the favourite to take over end up in hospital
:30:48. > :30:48.after an altercation in the European Parliament.
:30:49. > :31:01.Our Ellie's been watching the soap opera unfold.
:31:02. > :31:04.So, we've all heard the rumours about the internal
:31:05. > :31:09.Well, this week, they played out in front of our very eyes on the TV
:31:10. > :31:12.screens in the most dramatic of ways.
:31:13. > :31:19.It was only just over three weeks ago.
:31:20. > :31:31.18 days later, she realised that wasn't going to happen.
:31:32. > :31:33.In her resignation statement, she said she didn't have
:31:34. > :31:35.sufficient authority, nor the full support, of her MEP
:31:36. > :31:39.colleagues and party officers to continue.
:31:40. > :31:42.There was also this clue in the official form she filled
:31:43. > :31:44.in for the Electoral Commission, where she signed her name
:31:45. > :31:52.In the meantime, Nigel Farage seemed pretty chipper, explaining
:31:53. > :31:59.I keep getting over the wall and running for the hills.
:32:00. > :32:01.Before I am finally free, they drag me back.
:32:02. > :32:08.It doesn't have one because she's resigned.
:32:09. > :32:10.The Ukip constitution is quite clear.
:32:11. > :32:12.In these circumstances, the National Executive Committee has
:32:13. > :32:17.the right to appoint an interim leader, which I presume it will do
:32:18. > :32:21.at its meeting on the 17th of October.
:32:22. > :32:23.I'm told the NEC might have met earlier but someone
:32:24. > :32:26.is on is on a cruise, so it wouldn't be quorate.
:32:27. > :32:29.It was starting to feel a bit like a soap opera.
:32:30. > :32:35.It's almost like being a part of Dynasty.
:32:36. > :32:37.By close of play, this man, who probably would have been leader
:32:38. > :32:40.last time if he hadn't been barred from standing had thrown
:32:41. > :32:46.But then things went really off script, when he, Steven Woolfe,
:32:47. > :32:50.after a meeting with colleagues that went...
:32:51. > :32:53.There are mixed accounts of what happened.
:32:54. > :32:56.It's two grown men getting involved in an altercation.
:32:57. > :33:03.We're talking about a dispute that finished up physically.
:33:04. > :33:08.I understand there was an argument between some MEPs and Steven,
:33:09. > :33:15.I think, picked a fight with one of them, and came off worst.
:33:16. > :33:18.It later transpired that the MEPs had been arguing about reports that
:33:19. > :33:21.Mr Woolfe had considered defecting to the Tories.
:33:22. > :33:24.That had ended in a scuffle with this man.
:33:25. > :33:34.It was, as people in Hull would say, handbags at dawn.
:33:35. > :33:38.He even tweeted a picture of his hands to prove it.
:33:39. > :33:41.But Mr Woolfe's team questioned that version of events and said his
:33:42. > :33:46.Either way, the two men have been in touch and say
:33:47. > :33:48.they want to meet - handbags and all -
:33:49. > :33:52.But that might not be the end of the story.
:33:53. > :33:55.So, part of Ukip's charm has always been to say and do
:33:56. > :33:57.things the other party would never even dream of.
:33:58. > :34:01.But this week has been different and a number of senior Ukip sources
:34:02. > :34:07.have told me that what happens next will be make or break for the party.
:34:08. > :34:09.They say that will depend on who the next leader is.
:34:10. > :34:11.Before all this happens, Steven Woolfe, seen
:34:12. > :34:15.as a disciple of Nigel Farage, would have been favourite.
:34:16. > :34:20.It must surely have been obvious to anybody, having seen this,
:34:21. > :34:23.that Steven Woolfe, and of course Mike Hookem,
:34:24. > :34:25.I don't think Mike would put his hat into the ring.
:34:26. > :34:29.Surely they can't now consider that either of them could stand
:34:30. > :34:35.The party's biggest donor, Arron Banks,
:34:36. > :34:41.It's fairly indicative of the party split between those who think
:34:42. > :34:44.the new leader should be moulded in Nigel Farage's image,
:34:45. > :34:48.and those who can think of little worse.
:34:49. > :34:53.The party is bigger than any one individual.
:34:54. > :34:55.Everybody has a responsibility within Ukip to safeguard
:34:56. > :35:04.its reputation and that's what I'm asking all people to do now
:35:05. > :35:11.The drama may be over for this week but with the leadership campaign
:35:12. > :35:13.looming, there will be plenty more episodes to come.
:35:14. > :35:15.And we're joined now by the Ukip MEP Bill Etheridge.
:35:16. > :35:17.He was at the meeting where the "altercation"
:35:18. > :35:20.between Steven Woolfe and Mike Hookem took place,
:35:21. > :35:25.and he stood to be leader in the party's last
:35:26. > :35:31.leadership contest, which only finished in September.
:35:32. > :35:42.We have learned, while on-air, that Steven Woolfe has left the hospital
:35:43. > :35:51.in Strasbourg. Bill Etheridge, were punches thrown? First of all, as all
:35:52. > :35:54.MEPs we should apologise to our member ship and supporters for all
:35:55. > :35:59.this nonsense. With regards to punches thrown, I was first on the
:36:00. > :36:06.scene. I did not see punches thrown. I saw Mike with his hands down his
:36:07. > :36:11.side and is Steven Wolfe halfway through and unlatched door. --
:36:12. > :36:16.Steven Woolfe. He was on the floor. Before you got on the scene, there
:36:17. > :36:21.could have been blows exchanged? In the 15 to 30 seconds before I got
:36:22. > :36:25.there, there is a possibility but Mike has denied that there were any
:36:26. > :36:31.punches thrown and I have not seen any evidence that their world. The
:36:32. > :36:35.friends of Steven Woolfe has said independent medical examinations
:36:36. > :36:39.suggests he does have wounds and bruising which cannot be explained
:36:40. > :36:43.by simply a fall to the floor. I am sure the chairman of the party will
:36:44. > :36:47.look into that and see the exact information being discussed. When it
:36:48. > :36:55.is something put out by sources or friends, let's wait and see the
:36:56. > :36:58.actual information. Was it the idea of Steven Woolfe that the dispute
:36:59. > :37:03.should be settled outside? Yes, Stephen stood up and said, if this
:37:04. > :37:08.is the temperature of your comments, I think we should sort out
:37:09. > :37:12.man-to-man. He took off his jacket and walked outside. Unfortunately,
:37:13. > :37:15.and he has said he regrets it, Mike went outside and did the same thing
:37:16. > :37:22.himself was that neither of them should have done it. It was foolish.
:37:23. > :37:27.If that is response by Steven Woolfe to an argument, no matter how
:37:28. > :37:32.heated, among his own MEPs, does that disqualify him to stand as
:37:33. > :37:40.leader? It does not disqualify him. It says something about his
:37:41. > :37:42.temperament. What I will say is it was not heated argument at the
:37:43. > :37:45.start. We were discussing the fact he had been in a conversation with
:37:46. > :37:48.the Conservative Party about joining. Only a day or two earlier
:37:49. > :37:52.he had said he was not going to join for that we asked if that was to do
:37:53. > :37:56.with the fact that he heard Diane James was standing down. That was
:37:57. > :38:01.the purpose of the meeting, to find out what Steven Woolfe was doing
:38:02. > :38:05.about the Conservative Party. Due to this altercation, we never got an
:38:06. > :38:11.answer. I personally would like need to know what he was doing. What was
:38:12. > :38:18.said? I and stand this happened quite quickly into the meeting. What
:38:19. > :38:23.was it that was said which meant, take the jacket off, we will settle
:38:24. > :38:28.this outside? Steven Woolfe had said about how upset he was that he could
:38:29. > :38:34.not stand in the summer, his form were late by 17 minutes. Mike said
:38:35. > :38:38.whether it is your fault and no one else's. Steven Woolfe reacted
:38:39. > :38:42.angrily and we could get no further conversation. That was the extent of
:38:43. > :38:49.the provocation, to say it was your fault. He was not swearing but he
:38:50. > :38:53.basically said, that's your fault, it is your responsibility. Are you
:38:54. > :38:57.going to stand in this leadership contest now? Up until this happens,
:38:58. > :39:01.I was seriously considering rolling in to try to make sure we did not
:39:02. > :39:06.have people who had been negative towards the party and towards Nigel
:39:07. > :39:11.taking over. Now I do not feel I can support Steven Woolfe and, yes, I
:39:12. > :39:16.will be standing. Isn't the bitter truth, your previously the last for
:39:17. > :39:22.18 days. Two MPs have now said to step outside and we will sort this
:39:23. > :39:27.with jackets. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Ukip is not a
:39:28. > :39:33.proper, functioning party without Nigel Farage at the helm? You cannot
:39:34. > :39:38.survive without him. Nigel is a fantastic leader. He has led us very
:39:39. > :39:42.strongly and powerfully. It is up to us to take responsibility. That is
:39:43. > :39:47.one reason I want to do it to bring the party together. Every time he
:39:48. > :39:51.goes quickly fall apart. There is no functioning Ukip I would suggest
:39:52. > :39:55.without Nigel Farage. Up to us to make sure we get systems in place
:39:56. > :39:59.and make sure we have strong leadership and pull the party
:40:00. > :40:04.together. We can do it. We have 4 million voters than 30,000 members.
:40:05. > :40:07.They must be feeling very let down. It is up to us to make sure we do
:40:08. > :40:08.the right thing and look after them and be there to represent them.
:40:09. > :40:11.Thank you. We say goodbye to
:40:12. > :40:15.viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for
:40:16. > :40:17.Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:40:18. > :40:20.the Week Ahead, when we'll be talking about the recording,
:40:21. > :40:22.which some think could derail Donald Trump's bid
:40:23. > :40:31.for the White House. Hello and welcome to
:40:32. > :40:38.the Sunday Politics Wales. Here in a few minutes, after many
:40:39. > :40:41.twists and turns the Wales Bill is now well on its way
:40:42. > :40:43.through Parliament, but what reception will
:40:44. > :40:45.the Lords give it tomorrow? Is it really the bill
:40:46. > :40:47.that will settle Welsh But first, the big political news
:40:48. > :40:56.of the week in Wales is that our councils are not
:40:57. > :40:59.going to be scrapped after all! Ministers say they want them
:41:00. > :41:01.to co-operate instead. The Minister will tell
:41:02. > :41:04.us in a few minutes. But the man who came up
:41:05. > :41:07.with the original merger proposals Daniel Davies now on how those plans
:41:08. > :41:13.bit the political dust. January 2014, and a report on how
:41:14. > :41:17.to run public services lands The Williams Commission said
:41:18. > :41:24.the number of local councils should be cut from 22 to as few as ten,
:41:25. > :41:30.and one word rang out, the need Change is inevitable
:41:31. > :41:41.and essential he told us, but political opponents and some
:41:42. > :41:45.in his own party disagreed. When he didn't get what he wanted,
:41:46. > :41:47.he brought Leighton Andrews back in to the government on a mission
:41:48. > :41:51.to force heads together. Council bosses showed little
:41:52. > :41:55.enthusiasm for Mr Andrews' map which reduced the number
:41:56. > :42:00.of councils to eight or nine. Then another change in the political
:42:01. > :42:05.map - Mr Andrews lost his seat So over to his successor,
:42:06. > :42:11.Mark Drakeford, who this Councils won't merge,
:42:12. > :42:15.instead they will deliver services So, two-and-a-half years down
:42:16. > :42:28.the line, is Sir Paul Williams, the man who got the ball rolling,
:42:29. > :42:31.disappointed at a lack of progress? I think probably my commission
:42:32. > :42:37.members were disappointed given the depth of the evidence
:42:38. > :42:39.we took, and at the time, virtually everyone we spoke
:42:40. > :42:41.to expressed the view that But unless there is the political
:42:42. > :42:50.will to see it through, then no I'm not surprised,
:42:51. > :42:54.and I think what Mark is trying to do now is form that consensus,
:42:55. > :42:58.but he's quite clear that partnership working as it has
:42:59. > :43:04.operated previously, I'm going back as far
:43:05. > :43:06.as Sir Jeremy Beecham's review Is there a danger that by getting
:43:07. > :43:18.councils to work together even more on a regional basis,
:43:19. > :43:22.with different services in different places,
:43:23. > :43:24.it becomes even more And the danger is that you just
:43:25. > :43:32.develop an overly bureaucratic landscape, where those operating
:43:33. > :43:38.within it are spending more time working on process than on outcomes,
:43:39. > :43:43.and I think that is where Mark has been quite clear,
:43:44. > :43:50.that he wishes to mandate both on the new arrangements and reducing
:43:51. > :43:52.existing partnerships In other words telling
:43:53. > :44:08.them what to do. More importantly, to mandate
:44:09. > :44:09.on the governance arrangements. I think that is going to be very
:44:10. > :44:13.tricky because he is going to keep How are the governments arrangements
:44:14. > :44:18.going to work where they are where they are going to have to seed
:44:19. > :44:20.some of the authority When words like resilience
:44:21. > :44:24.and capacity are thrown around, what we are talking about here
:44:25. > :44:28.are councils that are I mean when we did our analysis,
:44:29. > :44:39.of the performance of 22 authorities back in 2013-14,
:44:40. > :44:41.five of the smallest I don't think across the whole
:44:42. > :44:52.of South Wales there were substantive officers in key
:44:53. > :44:55.roles, at director or deputy director level in education
:44:56. > :44:58.or social services. You are competing in a market,
:44:59. > :45:13.particularly in health, So you said in your report in 2014
:45:14. > :45:17.that there was an urgent need Would you say now it
:45:18. > :45:22.is even more urgent? And Mark recognises in his statement
:45:23. > :45:27.the importance of leadership and that is why in a report we had
:45:28. > :45:30.a significant section on leadership because we felt these changes
:45:31. > :45:33.were not actually coming to pass unless we were having a change
:45:34. > :45:36.of culture and a change of leadership, or leadership
:45:37. > :45:38.approaches rather, both politically He said he wants to go through two
:45:39. > :45:47.local government elections, he's looking at a ten year
:45:48. > :45:54.time period here. And yet austerity is something
:45:55. > :45:57.we are dealing with for a while. The amount of time this
:45:58. > :46:00.is all taking. Yes, well, again I think
:46:01. > :46:03.Mark is wanting to build stability into the system,
:46:04. > :46:05.whilst he can achieve his reforms. The problem is that
:46:06. > :46:08.because of the pressures financially and on the quality of services,
:46:09. > :46:14.there's going to have to be some rapid movement in my view,
:46:15. > :46:16.if the citizen is going And even more importantly now,
:46:17. > :46:21.in a post Brexit environment, where Wales are going to have
:46:22. > :46:23.to compete globally. Well, when I met Wales' local
:46:24. > :46:29.government Secretary, I asked Mark Drakeford why he'd
:46:30. > :46:31.decided not to force Well, the simple realities
:46:32. > :46:41.of the matter, to be frank, the last Welsh government
:46:42. > :46:44.here in the last Assembly term made, I think, a valiant effort to try
:46:45. > :46:50.and take forward Sir Paul's recommendations, in terms
:46:51. > :46:52.of the numbers of Local Authorities. I think that debate has changed some
:46:53. > :47:02.of the nature of what we will do, but in the end it failed to obtain
:47:03. > :47:07.a consensus within the Assembly and without with the Assembly
:47:08. > :47:09.on that particular aspect But I am unclear as to
:47:10. > :47:12.what your view is now. Are you saying it was wrong to aim
:47:13. > :47:16.for ten or 12 councils, but you have Or do you think it is better
:47:17. > :47:21.to continue with the current 22, My view is this, is that the debate
:47:22. > :47:26.that was generated last time was important, but that it failed
:47:27. > :47:28.to create a consensus And in the end, in this business,
:47:29. > :47:33.you have to find a way in which you can carry
:47:34. > :47:38.all the people who are important to this, Local Authorities
:47:39. > :47:43.themselves and their partners, political parties at the Assembly,
:47:44. > :47:48.and if you cannot do that, then you are never going to be able
:47:49. > :47:52.to find a practical way. But with respect,
:47:53. > :47:53.that is not your view. That's an explanation
:47:54. > :47:55.of the situation, rather Well, my view is that it is my job
:47:56. > :48:01.as a practical politician, is to find a way forward that can be
:48:02. > :48:06.made to work. It may not be the ideal way forward,
:48:07. > :48:15.as anyone of us may think, but my message to Local Authorities
:48:16. > :48:18.is that we have a joint obligation to find a way forward
:48:19. > :48:20.and if you want to create You said that there needed to be two
:48:21. > :48:29.areas where you have to get the consensus,
:48:30. > :48:31.the councils and the Assembly. Does that mean it is only
:48:32. > :48:33.because you don't If you had 36 Labour Assembly
:48:34. > :48:39.members, would be you be driving through the aim of getting down
:48:40. > :48:41.to ten or 12 councils, but you're just faced
:48:42. > :48:43.with the political reality, If you are asking my own approach
:48:44. > :48:47.to it, it would be that even if we had a majority here,
:48:48. > :48:51.I would still think it would be important to craft a solution that
:48:52. > :48:53.would take others with you. Now having a majority
:48:54. > :48:55.here might change the nature But I don't think it would be
:48:56. > :49:04.enough simply to say, we have got the numbers,
:49:05. > :49:07.we will do what we like and we don't It might change the nature
:49:08. > :49:11.of the conversation, but nor did it change the realities
:49:12. > :49:13.that as your predecessor and Paul Williams is saying,
:49:14. > :49:16.there is a cost to continuing with having 22 local authorities,
:49:17. > :49:20.there's a lack of effectiveness Those realities are unchanged
:49:21. > :49:25.because of the numbers That is exactly what I say
:49:26. > :49:29.to local authorities. But are you being harsh
:49:30. > :49:32.enough with them? What you are offering
:49:33. > :49:41.is you are asking them Are you really taking enough of us
:49:42. > :49:51.stick to them to say, Look, the two words that I have been
:49:52. > :49:56.very clear about and repeated in the statement I made
:49:57. > :49:58.to the Assembly this week is that when we move
:49:59. > :50:01.forward, as I hope we will, in the new regional arrangements,
:50:02. > :50:06.there will be two things. They will be systematic
:50:07. > :50:09.and they will be mandatory. So I moved well beyond the idea that
:50:10. > :50:11.simply ask, persuade We need to agree what the regional
:50:12. > :50:15.footprints will be, we need to agree the responsibilities that
:50:16. > :50:17.will be discharged there. But once we have agreed,
:50:18. > :50:20.this is how it will be done all over Wales,
:50:21. > :50:23.that is why it will be systematic, It will be a requirement,
:50:24. > :50:27.not a request. But what's the difficult,
:50:28. > :50:29.I guess is when you have one of the things your colleague
:50:30. > :50:31.for example education services. There is a problem there in terms
:50:32. > :50:37.of democratically elected councils. If I live in Wrexham,
:50:38. > :50:40.and I am unhappy with my schools, who do I vote out, the cos it is not
:50:41. > :50:43.just the Wrexham councillors They will be merging
:50:44. > :50:46.with Flintshire and elsewhere. There is a lack of
:50:47. > :50:48.accountability there. There is a question certainly
:50:49. > :50:49.about answerability and accountability which we have
:50:50. > :50:52.to work through as part of the conversation I'm going
:50:53. > :51:11.to have over the next three months. How do you overcome that? You would
:51:12. > :51:14.do it the way they do now. We have regional consortia. They are not in
:51:15. > :51:24.charge of the whole system, which I think you are getting at. The
:51:25. > :51:25.principle is the same. Those educational improvement
:51:26. > :51:28.responsibilities are not done by Wrexham. If you are not satisfied
:51:29. > :51:30.with the way school improvement is being carried out in Wrexham, the
:51:31. > :51:42.regional improve ability question is there too. If regional improvement
:51:43. > :51:45.is the question, why not merge the councils. The stumbling block would
:51:46. > :51:48.be the councillors. We do not want to voters also out of a job. I think
:51:49. > :51:53.the role of local councillors will be even more important in the future
:51:54. > :52:00.than in the past. If you are a citizen of Wrexham and want to know
:52:01. > :52:03.where a decision is being made and want to influence it, your local
:52:04. > :52:05.councillor will be your guide and your assistant and making sure that
:52:06. > :52:10.happens. The Democratic accountability and the local is
:52:11. > :52:15.that, having people close to that local area generally to speak on
:52:16. > :52:20.people's the half is 22. And I think that citizens of Wales have had the
:52:21. > :52:25.current system for nearly a quarter of a century. It has accumulated
:52:26. > :52:29.knowledge in peoples minds. They are used to dealing with that local
:52:30. > :52:35.authority. Fact that you will still through the front door of which ever
:52:36. > :52:40.council area you live in, one that you are used in all, behind the
:52:41. > :52:44.front door services that you receive will be operated on a regional
:52:45. > :52:47.basis, that will not matter to you. But your sense of how to get into
:52:48. > :52:48.them remains at that local level. It's been billed as the way
:52:49. > :52:51.to settle Welsh devolution Others say it's a dog's dinner,
:52:52. > :52:55.which if passed, would see powers Tomorrow the Lords get their chance
:52:56. > :52:59.to look at the Wales Bill. But what would it do for Wales,
:53:00. > :53:02.and why has it had If passed, the Wales Bill if passed
:53:03. > :53:09.would give the Assembly new powers, over energy projects such
:53:10. > :53:12.as fracking, deciding how taxis should be licenced and what speeds
:53:13. > :53:15.should be allowed on Welsh roads. It would also let the Assembly
:53:16. > :53:19.decide on how its own elections should be run, including possibly
:53:20. > :53:22.altering the voting age. But the real row over
:53:23. > :53:24.the Bill is which powers The UK Government says having
:53:25. > :53:32.the Reserved Powers model - where everything is devolved
:53:33. > :53:40.unless it's on a list of things that aren't - makes
:53:41. > :53:44.things clearer. This week
:53:45. > :53:45.a committee of AMs said was a danger of powers
:53:46. > :53:59.being taken back. This bill is not good enough. There
:54:00. > :54:03.are dangers that could roll the devolution settlement backwards.
:54:04. > :54:03.That is the first time this has done that.
:54:04. > :54:06.This is the fourth attempt to clarify, if that's the word,
:54:07. > :54:10.Each of the previous Acts was said to be the final one -
:54:11. > :54:13.Joining me in the studio is the devolution expert
:54:14. > :54:16.Manon George and the Wales Office Minister Guto Bebb
:54:17. > :54:34.Good morning. Have you been surprised by just how many people in
:54:35. > :54:36.terms of academics, constitutional experts and assembly members, have
:54:37. > :54:42.been so critical of the Wales Bill as it currently stands? Surprised
:54:43. > :54:48.and disappointed because the bill has changed significantly over the
:54:49. > :54:52.last nine months. It has passed through the House of Commons without
:54:53. > :54:58.much trouble. The allocated time was not utilised because so few
:54:59. > :55:06.amendments from the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru. To see the attack from
:55:07. > :55:09.the asylum blade this week is surprising. What is generally
:55:10. > :55:13.concerned is they are being somewhat dishonest in their attack. --
:55:14. > :55:16.assembly. They say there is a removal of pearls from Westminster.
:55:17. > :55:21.What they are talking about our powers which have been conferred on
:55:22. > :55:26.the assembly as a result of court cases that need to be reserved. How
:55:27. > :55:34.is that not a reversal of powers? You are reversing to the
:55:35. > :55:36.agricultural powers board. The Welsh government has the power to
:55:37. > :55:41.legislate in that area. That would be removed. I think it is very
:55:42. > :55:46.clear. This was going against the will of the people of Wales. They
:55:47. > :55:50.did not fought for a situation where the courts would decide. It is
:55:51. > :55:56.important, if we take that supreme court finding, it could be feasible
:55:57. > :55:59.for the Welsh government to defend. No one in Wales has voted to give
:56:00. > :56:07.the Wales assembly powers over defence. The Supreme Court has
:56:08. > :56:10.highlighted deficiencies and the wage we have legislated. The aim of
:56:11. > :56:16.the bill is to put in the agreements we have and also to have a clarity
:56:17. > :56:20.so that we know what is the responsibility of Westminster and
:56:21. > :56:24.what is the responsibility of Cardiff. I am disappointed to see
:56:25. > :56:28.this as the attack prepared by some in the assembly who should know
:56:29. > :56:34.better. Let's take it to the constitutional experts who gave
:56:35. > :56:38.evidence to the committee, a legal Tech expert on law saying that the
:56:39. > :56:45.national Assembly, he thinks has the power to do -- Boulus the smacking
:56:46. > :56:50.ban. He says the Wales Bill as it stands now, that would be removed.
:56:51. > :56:54.How is that not rolling back of powers question mark it as providing
:56:55. > :57:00.clarity. Clarity can still be rolling back the powers. Just as
:57:01. > :57:05.importantly, we are building upon the 2011 referendum. It was clear,
:57:06. > :57:10.it gave the Welsh assembly powers and 20 subject areas. We are going
:57:11. > :57:16.far beyond that. We need clarity, the people of Wales are not well
:57:17. > :57:18.served by decisions that are in a grey area. That is not serving
:57:19. > :57:25.devolution. There has been a cross-party agreement to move to a
:57:26. > :57:30.more clarified position. That was in place in Westminster is when you did
:57:31. > :57:35.not see these types of issues raised and I think it is late in the day
:57:36. > :57:39.and not very helpful to have this kind of overblown attack from some
:57:40. > :57:42.grandees and this assembly at this point of time. Let's take it away
:57:43. > :57:48.from the assembly members. What you are moving to know is powers system
:57:49. > :57:51.whereby there are reserved powers. It will be written down what
:57:52. > :57:56.Westminster does and the rest is up to the Welsh assembly. The concern
:57:57. > :58:00.is that that list of what is reserved to Westminster is far too
:58:01. > :58:05.long. There doesn't need to be any shorter now in this new reformed
:58:06. > :58:11.wheels mill. There is one evidence as the committee said, in the past
:58:12. > :58:17.you had a G1, health professionals and GEC was ordered to us. Now it is
:58:18. > :58:22.shorter because you have G1 and that is auditors, architects and health
:58:23. > :58:28.workers. Some would say you are pulling a fast one now. No, I think
:58:29. > :58:34.it is something very clear. It is concerning that we reflect the vote
:58:35. > :58:37.of the people of Wales in 2011. We are highlighting the agreement where
:58:38. > :58:42.there was a cross-party consensus on some issues and not another's. What
:58:43. > :58:47.we're trying to do is important where there is consensus. I think
:58:48. > :58:56.the problem here resides as much in the Labour Party as in concerns
:58:57. > :59:08.about the devolution settlement. We have a situation where he have wine
:59:09. > :59:16.member of pose to... Do you think this Wales Bill isn't actually any
:59:17. > :59:19.shorter than the last version of it. It is shorter and clearer and there
:59:20. > :59:22.has been a welcome to the new bill by the First Minister himself who
:59:23. > :59:24.said while it was not perfect in his view, it was a basis for moving the
:59:25. > :59:29.settlement for it. The First Minister said that when it was
:59:30. > :59:31.announced. I am surprised that this committee has taken such a different
:59:32. > :59:37.view. I would like to get your view on another thing, your boss
:59:38. > :59:43.essentially, the secretary for State of Wales, should apologise because
:59:44. > :59:48.of comments he made others deny's Question Time when he was accusing
:59:49. > :59:53.Plaid Cymru member as being part of a bombing campaign. Should he
:59:54. > :59:59.apologised that work IMs apprised by Carwyn Jones's intervention. What I
:00:00. > :00:02.saw was a robust debate. In terms of apology, there is a difference
:00:03. > :00:08.between what happened on question Time and the collusion between the
:00:09. > :00:12.Labour Party in Wales in attacking Welsh speaking communities in order
:00:13. > :00:15.to be Plaid Cymru. If there is any apology required, it should come
:00:16. > :00:21.from Carwyn Jones and his party. Thank you very much for your time
:00:22. > :00:26.this morning. I did promise that we would have a constitutional expert
:00:27. > :00:32.in the studio. What did you make of what the minister had to sleep. I
:00:33. > :00:39.would disagree with the Minister, this bill clearly is rolling back
:00:40. > :00:43.the assembly's powers. There is a long list of reservations, over 200
:00:44. > :00:48.matters. Some would say that that is an improvement on the draft bill.
:00:49. > :00:52.But we are still looking at over 200 reservations. The bill has just been
:00:53. > :00:57.rewritten so that the reservations have been rewritten so they are a
:00:58. > :01:03.bit cleaner. As was described there, they have been grouped together. So
:01:04. > :01:09.you can count more than 200 individual reservations. The UK
:01:10. > :01:13.Government did take on board the Welsh government's advice either of
:01:14. > :01:21.having issues they could later perhaps die of -- vault to the
:01:22. > :01:24.assembly, for example, things like criminal justice. Police think is
:01:25. > :01:30.not mentioned at all. So still and huge reservations on the assembly's
:01:31. > :01:34.powers. What about the point that actually a lot of things that were
:01:35. > :01:37.proposed in the changes went beyond the scope of what should have been
:01:38. > :01:42.devolved, saying the Supreme Court was essentially wrong to rule in
:01:43. > :01:47.favour to see do not have these powers. The supreme court to the
:01:48. > :01:53.agricultural wages cases suggested the assembly should be all to
:01:54. > :01:56.legislate on anything as long as it realistically and fairly relates to
:01:57. > :02:00.a devolved matter. So that means that some silent subjects, things
:02:01. > :02:08.that are not confirmed in the assembly or not excepted from its
:02:09. > :02:14.powers, the legislation can be made by the assembly. So an example of
:02:15. > :02:16.that is employment. So that judgment definitely clarified the assembly's
:02:17. > :02:20.lawmaking powers. But what this bill has done has tried to undo those
:02:21. > :02:25.Supreme Court decisions and actually take back some of the powers that
:02:26. > :02:30.the Welsh government and the assembly thought the ad. I guess I
:02:31. > :02:34.know the answer to this question, one of the things that isn't there
:02:35. > :02:43.in this bill is a promise of a single legal body for Wales. Does
:02:44. > :02:46.that need to be there? Historically, the unified legal system between
:02:47. > :02:49.England and Wales has always been the reason why Wales cannot have
:02:50. > :02:53.more powers. But now that we are moving to a reserved powers model,
:02:54. > :03:03.that model would work much better with a separate jurisdiction or even
:03:04. > :03:06.distinct jurisdictions for Wales. Currently the law of Wales become
:03:07. > :03:12.part of the law of England and Wales, so it would provide more
:03:13. > :03:15.clarity if you had distinct arrangements for Wales. I was good
:03:16. > :03:19.to ask you if you think this is good to be settling devolution
:03:20. > :03:20.settlement. I will not ask you for announcer. Thank you for coming in
:03:21. > :03:22.this morning. There's more coverage on twitter -
:03:23. > :03:43.we're @walespolitics but for now Just what exactly is the
:03:44. > :03:49.Government's see an asking fans to recall how many foreign workers they
:03:50. > :03:56.employ? Has Donald Trump's is at a campaign been halted ill of the
:03:57. > :04:01.water line? Two big questions for our Week Ahead. The Home Office is
:04:02. > :04:06.pumping out briefings as we speak, trying to clarify what the Tubman
:04:07. > :04:16.Palacios, announced by Amber Rudd at the Tory conference. -- the
:04:17. > :04:21.Government plan is. They wanted companies having lists of people who
:04:22. > :04:25.worked. Now it may be just industrywide for that we're not
:04:26. > :04:31.going to name the companies or publish any lists. And it sounds
:04:32. > :04:35.like a classic party conference kite flyers and it has gone hideously
:04:36. > :04:38.wrong when even the brother of the Home Secretary is hitting out at it.
:04:39. > :04:43.Lotsa people would not have a problem imprisonable with the idea
:04:44. > :04:48.companies having to give an idea of the proportion of foreign workers
:04:49. > :04:54.employed. Where it gets sinister is where you are naming people and that
:04:55. > :04:59.becomes very difficult. Does not seem that the Government, even as it
:05:00. > :05:05.badly briefed this out, posted the Amber red speech there was never the
:05:06. > :05:11.intention of publishing a list of there being 500 migrants working for
:05:12. > :05:18.this company and these are the names. That would be absurd. What is
:05:19. > :05:22.the point? The latest line is it would be a private list for
:05:23. > :05:26.government. It reflects a bigger problem. Individually, these
:05:27. > :05:30.measures, you can see a principled argument. There was an avalanche
:05:31. > :05:34.building up with a hostile climate towards migrants. That might start
:05:35. > :05:42.making people queasy. Lots of parents have been text being and
:05:43. > :05:48.saying whether their children have a passport. You are going to need to
:05:49. > :05:56.do this data collection. It makes people uneasy. There was a plus in
:05:57. > :06:01.the idea. Ed Miliband had proposed something similar. The Americans do
:06:02. > :06:05.it. The idea that we look at those industries or companies where there
:06:06. > :06:08.is a high proportion of migrant workers, it sends a message that
:06:09. > :06:12.that is where our skilled effort should go. We should be training the
:06:13. > :06:16.people here already in these skills because we are short of them. That
:06:17. > :06:24.would seem to be part of a sensible labour market policy. But that, I
:06:25. > :06:29.would suggest to you, is entirely lost in this. It has been a
:06:30. > :06:33.catastrophe in the way has been put out. What you have is different
:06:34. > :06:38.levels of what Brexit looks like. The Home Secretary voted for Remain
:06:39. > :06:43.and the Prime Minister voted for Remain. They are all trying to be
:06:44. > :06:46.tough. If you speak to Amber Road when she does not think there should
:06:47. > :06:51.be any controls over skilled immigration. The message wit is
:06:52. > :06:59.coming through is we are going to clamp down on this stuff. -- which
:07:00. > :07:04.is coming through. She is broadly liberal in outlets. Was she trying
:07:05. > :07:08.to be more Brexit than Brexit? It is a really difficult position for that
:07:09. > :07:11.she is running the department that will have to implement all the
:07:12. > :07:19.things she does not believe in. Theresa May is failing to implement
:07:20. > :07:26.proper immigration controls. She is following Mrs May in the job she has
:07:27. > :07:34.to do. Let's move on to something rather bigger. This is this video,
:07:35. > :07:39.broadcast, which has emerged of the Republican presidential candidate,
:07:40. > :07:44.Donald Trump. It seems to be a watershed moment in the presidential
:07:45. > :07:49.campaign of 2016. He is caught on tape making lewd comments about
:07:50. > :08:10.women. It is a long tape so let's have a look at a part of it.
:08:11. > :08:18.And there is lots more where that came from. Yesterday other tapes
:08:19. > :08:21.came out of Mr Trump making inappropriate remarks in the past
:08:22. > :08:28.when the microphone was also running. Yesterday in the United
:08:29. > :08:33.States has been a remarkable day, almost unprecedented. Senior
:08:34. > :08:38.Republicans are now poised to abandon Mr Trump as Republican
:08:39. > :08:43.candidate. Two dozen Republican lawmakers have already disowned him.
:08:44. > :08:48.Senior figures like Senator Mike Leigh of Utah and John McCain, who
:08:49. > :08:55.was the Republican candidate several years ago from Arizona. Senator --
:08:56. > :09:04.the Senator in New Hampshire who has a tough race to work. We are joined
:09:05. > :09:08.by Jan from publicans Overseas. This is a catastrophe for your party. It
:09:09. > :09:13.is. It is not as catastrophic as people are making it. You have
:09:14. > :09:18.listed the elites. They are the ones that loss throughout the primaries.
:09:19. > :09:24.Jeb Bush wasted 154 million. Monitoring all the polls, it is only
:09:25. > :09:30.making Trump's port is that much stronger. May be the elites were
:09:31. > :09:37.right that Mr Trump was a wholly unsuitable person to be your party's
:09:38. > :09:40.and did it. Is he unsuitable? How much of understanding what the
:09:41. > :09:50.voters want and how much they messed up the Government plays into it? I
:09:51. > :09:59.am beyond being able to defend him. Yes, I am. Is number of people in
:10:00. > :10:04.your party are poised to disown him? There is another part for me. As a
:10:05. > :10:08.psychologist I wrote an international bestseller where I
:10:09. > :10:16.interviewed 4000 men and followed slides. Some of this is not
:10:17. > :10:20.shocking. I have experienced men in power who speak as Donald Trump
:10:21. > :10:25.does. You may not want someone like that as president. The Republican
:10:26. > :10:30.National committee has, as of now, frozen any further spending on the
:10:31. > :10:35.Donald Trump presidential campaign. The Republican National committee. I
:10:36. > :10:40.agree that they needed to do this if they wanted to even retain any women
:10:41. > :10:45.in the party. This has been a very smart move. Basically, we need to
:10:46. > :10:48.watch the debate tonight. I can come on your show tomorrow and tell you
:10:49. > :10:57.whether it is all over or not. This debate could well be major in Saint
:10:58. > :11:01.Louis. Nine o'clock UK time cost of the people who are worried now are
:11:02. > :11:05.the senators, who are up for re-election. There are a lot of
:11:06. > :11:10.them, a lot more than Democrats. The House is all up. They are up every
:11:11. > :11:13.two years, and governors are up for re-election as well. They are
:11:14. > :11:17.terrified. They thought they could do is to budget with Donald Trump as
:11:18. > :11:25.head of the ticket. Now they are really worried they cannot. There is
:11:26. > :11:28.not time to get rid of him, as I understand it from legal opinions
:11:29. > :11:30.which have come out. There is not enough time. Only if he is willing
:11:31. > :11:34.to go. Clearly he is not. This interview says it all. The comments
:11:35. > :11:40.are basically indefensible. What can you say apart from it being locker
:11:41. > :11:44.room banter. The real danger is the debate tonight, I think this could
:11:45. > :11:49.be the most explosive debate we have ever seen in American politics.
:11:50. > :11:54.Donald Trump is that only play is to drag Bill Clinton into this. He said
:11:55. > :12:00.that Bill Clinton said worse things on the golf course. There is a great
:12:01. > :12:04.phrase from Ronald Reagan on Gary Hart back in 1988 saying, boys
:12:05. > :12:08.should be boys but boy should not be president either. I think tonight
:12:09. > :12:13.you will see boys being boys again. Some Republicans are saying that
:12:14. > :12:18.Donald Trump should be replaced by the governor of Indiana. The problem
:12:19. > :12:23.is, the ballot papers have already been printed. 400,000 have already
:12:24. > :12:27.voted in the election in early voting and, constitutionally, it is
:12:28. > :12:32.by no means clear that you can, at this late stage, drop the top of the
:12:33. > :12:37.ticket and replace him with somebody else. They have not been a great
:12:38. > :12:44.deal of opposition research done on Mike pence. This is the same as with
:12:45. > :12:50.Bernie Sanders. You do not know until you get into the heat of the
:12:51. > :12:54.election. There are prominent Republicans saying that is an
:12:55. > :12:58.option. It is extraordinary to think this is the point where people have
:12:59. > :13:02.ditched him. There has been comment after comment and relating to the
:13:03. > :13:06.fact he was already falling in the polls after the Republican National
:13:07. > :13:10.Convention who was becoming within a whisker that he was catching up with
:13:11. > :13:15.Hillary Clinton. Now he has tailed away four. A senior Republican said
:13:16. > :13:19.to me, we have lost the White House and need to do what we can to hold
:13:20. > :13:25.on to the Senate figures really badly, we could lose that as well.
:13:26. > :13:29.It is very serious right now. For one who would like a Republican in
:13:30. > :13:33.the White House and to us to retain the Senate, and Congress, it is
:13:34. > :13:38.going to be worrying. As I said, we need to see what happens tonight and
:13:39. > :13:43.then we are going to really know. Live from Saint Louis it will be on
:13:44. > :13:53.the BBC News Channel at nine o'clock London time. Get in the popcorn and
:13:54. > :13:58.maybe an extra bottle of Blue None! The Daily Politics will be back from
:13:59. > :14:01.midday tomorrow. Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.