:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:45. > :00:49.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:50. > :00:51.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:52. > :01:04.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:05. > :01:11.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:12. > :01:18.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:19. > :01:21.Later in the programme, what does the Welsh Government want
:01:22. > :01:26.in London: Is the battle for of AMs, but how many
:01:27. > :01:30.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:31. > :01:39.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:40. > :01:42.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:43. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:52.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :02:00."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:01. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:11.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:12. > :02:18.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:19. > :02:28.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:29. > :02:34.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:35. > :02:37.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:38. > :02:40.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:41. > :02:44.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:45. > :02:51.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:52. > :02:55.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:56. > :02:59.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:03:00. > :03:05.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:06. > :03:12.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:13. > :03:17.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:18. > :03:20.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:21. > :03:25.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:26. > :03:30.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:31. > :03:33.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:34. > :03:38.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:39. > :03:45.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:46. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:56.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:57. > :04:04.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:05. > :04:07.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:08. > :04:13.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:14. > :04:16.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:17. > :04:21.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:22. > :04:26.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:27. > :04:29.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:30. > :04:34.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:35. > :04:44.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:45. > :04:47.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:48. > :04:53.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:54. > :04:57.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:58. > :05:01.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:02. > :05:06.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:07. > :05:09.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:10. > :05:15.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:16. > :05:19.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:20. > :05:23.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:24. > :05:30.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:31. > :05:34.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:35. > :05:39.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:40. > :05:42.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:43. > :05:47.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:48. > :05:55.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:56. > :06:01.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:02. > :06:03.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:04. > :06:10.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:11. > :06:18.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:19. > :06:23.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:24. > :06:27.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:28. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:35.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:36. > :06:41.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:42. > :06:56.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:57. > :07:00.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:01. > :07:04.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:05. > :07:07.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:08. > :07:12.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:13. > :07:20.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:21. > :07:24.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:25. > :07:28.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:29. > :07:33.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:34. > :07:38.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:39. > :07:42.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:43. > :07:47.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:48. > :07:51.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:52. > :07:57.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:58. > :08:02.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:03. > :08:06.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:07. > :08:10.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:11. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:29.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:30. > :08:35.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:36. > :08:39.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:40. > :08:45.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:46. > :08:50.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:51. > :08:51.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:52. > :09:00.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:01. > :09:05.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:06. > :09:10.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:11. > :09:16.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:17. > :09:21.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:22. > :09:25.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:26. > :09:28.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:29. > :09:34.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:35. > :09:40.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:41. > :09:43.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:44. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:52.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:53. > :09:59.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:10:00. > :10:02.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:03. > :10:08.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:09. > :10:11.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:12. > :10:17.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:18. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:25.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:26. > :10:31.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:32. > :10:35.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:36. > :10:39.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:40. > :10:46.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:47. > :10:49.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:50. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:06.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:07. > :11:11.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:12. > :11:15.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:16. > :11:27.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:28. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:39.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:40. > :11:44.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:45. > :11:48.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:49. > :11:56.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:57. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:01.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:02. > :12:03.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:04. > :12:05.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:06. > :12:07.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:08. > :12:10.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:11. > :12:19.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:20. > :12:23.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:24. > :12:27."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:28. > :12:29.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:30. > :12:31.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:32. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:45.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:46. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:51.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:52. > :12:54.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:55. > :13:00.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:01. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:08.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:09. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:19.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:20. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:35.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:36. > :13:38.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:39. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:51.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:52. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:59.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:14:00. > :14:03.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:04. > :14:09.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:10. > :14:11.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:12. > :14:15.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:16. > :14:21.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:22. > :14:24.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:25. > :14:29.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:30. > :14:33.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:34. > :14:37.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:38. > :14:42.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:43. > :14:46.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:47. > :14:51.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:52. > :14:56.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:57. > :15:00.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:01. > :15:04.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:05. > :15:08.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:09. > :15:14.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:15. > :15:19.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:20. > :15:22.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:23. > :15:26.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:27. > :15:30.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:31. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:40.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:41. > :15:46.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:47. > :15:50.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:51. > :15:58.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:59. > :16:00.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:01. > :16:02.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:03. > :16:08.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:09. > :16:13.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:14. > :16:14.It's not the EU which is
:16:15. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:21.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:22. > :16:24.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:25. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:28.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:29. > :16:31.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:32. > :16:35.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:36. > :16:48.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:49. > :16:52.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:53. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:59.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:17:00. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:07.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:08. > :17:11.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:12. > :17:13.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:14. > :17:31.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:32. > :17:34.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:35. > :17:36.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:37. > :17:39.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:40. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:44.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:45. > :17:46.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:47. > :17:49.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:50. > :17:50.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:51. > :17:53.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:54. > :17:55.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:56. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:03.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:04. > :18:06.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:07. > :18:08.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:09. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:15.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:16. > :18:27.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:28. > :18:29.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:30. > :18:33.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:34. > :18:37.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:38. > :18:40.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:41. > :18:44.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:45. > :18:49.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:50. > :18:55.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:56. > :19:00.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:01. > :19:03.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:04. > :19:05.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:06. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:15.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:16. > :19:16.run. There is absolutely
:19:17. > :19:18.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:19. > :19:19.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:20. > :19:24.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:25. > :19:33.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:34. > :19:36.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:37. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:48.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:49. > :19:53.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:54. > :20:03.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:04. > :20:07.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:08. > :20:10.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:11. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:18.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:19. > :20:21.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:22. > :20:25.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:26. > :20:29.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:30. > :20:33.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:34. > :20:36.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:37. > :20:40.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:41. > :20:44.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:45. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:53.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:54. > :20:56.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:57. > :20:59.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:21:00. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:07.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:08. > :21:11.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:12. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:18.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:19. > :21:21.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:22. > :21:24.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:25. > :21:30.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:31. > :21:35.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:36. > :21:38.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:39. > :21:42.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:43. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :22:00.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:01. > :22:03.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:04. > :22:07.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:08. > :22:11.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:12. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:15.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:16. > :22:17.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:18. > :22:20.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:21. > :22:23.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:24. > :22:25.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:26. > :22:28.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:29. > :22:44.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:45. > :22:54.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:55. > :23:02.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:03. > :23:04.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:05. > :23:06.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:07. > :23:20.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:21. > :23:23.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:24. > :23:25.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:26. > :23:28.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:29. > :23:30.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:31. > :23:34.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:35. > :23:38.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:39. > :23:44.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:45. > :23:47.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:48. > :23:52.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:53. > :23:59.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:24:00. > :24:02.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:03. > :24:10.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:11. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:19.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:20. > :24:21.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:22. > :24:24.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:25. > :24:29.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:30. > :24:32.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:33. > :24:46.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:47. > :24:49.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:50. > :24:52.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:53. > :24:55.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:56. > :24:57.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:58. > :24:59.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:25:00. > :25:01.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:02. > :25:10.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:11. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:16.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:17. > :25:19.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:20. > :25:20.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:21. > :25:24.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:25. > :25:27.that is something that Our members are not
:25:28. > :25:32.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:33. > :25:35.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:36. > :25:37.the future What method would you use
:25:38. > :25:40.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:41. > :25:43.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:44. > :25:47.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:48. > :25:53.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:54. > :25:55.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:56. > :25:59.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:26:00. > :26:01.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:02. > :26:07.details. This is one vote that
:26:08. > :26:09.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:10. > :26:13.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:14. > :26:16.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:17. > :26:20.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:21. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:30.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:31. > :26:39.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:40. > :26:42.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:43. > :26:44.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:45. > :26:47.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:48. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:04.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:05. > :27:14.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:15. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:21.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:22. > :27:23.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:24. > :27:28.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:29. > :27:31.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:32. > :27:35.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:36. > :27:55.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:56. > :27:57.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:58. > :28:01.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:02. > :28:03.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:04. > :28:05.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:06. > :28:07.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:08. > :28:10.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:11. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:15.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:16. > :28:18.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:19. > :28:20.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:21. > :28:22.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:23. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:29.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:30. > :28:36.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:37. > :28:40.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:41. > :28:44.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:45. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:52.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:53. > :28:56.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:57. > :29:01.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:02. > :29:04.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:05. > :29:08.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:09. > :29:11.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:12. > :29:22.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:23. > :29:24.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:25. > :29:26.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:27. > :29:29.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:30. > :29:32.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:33. > :29:35.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:36. > :29:40.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:41. > :29:44.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:45. > :29:47.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:48. > :29:51.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:52. > :29:55.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:56. > :29:59.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:30:00. > :30:02.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:03. > :30:09.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:10. > :30:13.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:14. > :30:17.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:18. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:26.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:27. > :30:31.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:32. > :30:34.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:35. > :30:37.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:38. > :30:43.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:44. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:51.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:52. > :30:55.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:56. > :31:00.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:01. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:09.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:10. > :31:12.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:13. > :31:18.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:19. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:25.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:26. > :31:27.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:28. > :31:37.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:38. > :31:43.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:44. > :31:50.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:51. > :31:54.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:55. > :32:00.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:01. > :32:06.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:07. > :32:10.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:11. > :32:14.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:15. > :32:21.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:22. > :32:25.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:26. > :32:33.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:34. > :32:36.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:37. > :32:42.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:43. > :32:46.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:47. > :32:50.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:51. > :32:53.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:54. > :32:57.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:58. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:13.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:14. > :33:16.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:17. > :33:21.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:22. > :33:27.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:28. > :33:34.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:35. > :33:37.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:38. > :33:40.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:41. > :33:47.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:48. > :33:55.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:56. > :33:59.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:34:00. > :34:04.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:05. > :34:09.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:10. > :34:13.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:14. > :34:17.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:18. > :34:21.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:22. > :34:25.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:26. > :34:30.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:31. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:40.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:41. > :34:44.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:45. > :34:46.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:47. > :34:53.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:54. > :34:57.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:58. > :35:01.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:02. > :35:11.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:12. > :35:15.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:16. > :35:20.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:21. > :35:26.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:27. > :35:29.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:30. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:39.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:40. > :35:44.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:45. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:54.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:55. > :36:01.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:02. > :36:06.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:07. > :36:10.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:11. > :36:15.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:16. > :36:19.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:20. > :36:35.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:36. > :36:43.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:44. > :36:48.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:49. > :36:52.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:56. > :37:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:05. > :37:09.In a few minutes, what are ministers doing about climate change,
:37:10. > :37:18.But first, the Welsh Government says the Chancellor should boost
:37:19. > :37:20.investment and ditch austerity in his Autumn Statement this week.
:37:21. > :37:23.Just before we came on air I spoke to the Finance Secretary Mark
:37:24. > :37:37.I am glad to see Philip Hammond confirmed that there is likely to be
:37:38. > :37:41.new investment in infrastructure, that is very important to us in
:37:42. > :37:43.Wales, together with the Finance Minister is from Scotland and
:37:44. > :37:48.Northern Ireland we have urged him to turn his back on failed policies
:37:49. > :37:52.of austerity and to focus the Autumn Statement on growth in the economy.
:37:53. > :38:01.Let's hope that what he said today gives us some hope that that is what
:38:02. > :38:04.the statement will contain. But we are also led to believe these are
:38:05. > :38:07.very uncertain times and we are told that the official forecasts may well
:38:08. > :38:11.be predicting ?100 billion as a black hole in the economy because of
:38:12. > :38:15.Brexit. Is this really the best time to be increasing investment if we
:38:16. > :38:18.have that back already in the economy? I think it certainly is
:38:19. > :38:22.because if you have predictions of a downturn in the economy as a result
:38:23. > :38:27.of Brexit then the government must act. Now is the time for governments
:38:28. > :38:32.to invest to try and counter the effect of Brexit, to put the UK
:38:33. > :38:37.economy back on a firm growth path, that is how you get increased tax
:38:38. > :38:40.receipts, that is how you have money available for public investment, you
:38:41. > :38:45.create a virtuous circle. I hope that this Chancellor has understood
:38:46. > :38:51.that and that his Autumn Statement will be a statement dedicated to
:38:52. > :38:54.growth and fairness in the UK economy. Some of the things that you
:38:55. > :38:59.say you would like to see, Swansea Bay, the barrage and the city
:39:00. > :39:03.region, a growth deal from North Wales, I am assuming you are not
:39:04. > :39:07.even hoping to see all of these things delivered. What are the main
:39:08. > :39:12.priorities you would like to see, rather than a scatter-gun approach
:39:13. > :39:17.of hoping for everything? The main thing is investment, investment in
:39:18. > :39:20.the long-term future of the economy. In what, specifically? If you are
:39:21. > :39:25.talking about spending plans from the UK demand, what do you want to
:39:26. > :39:28.see? We want to see money come to Wales for capital expenditure and
:39:29. > :39:34.then it will be for the Welsh Government to set out our own
:39:35. > :39:37.priorities, whether that is in transport, economic restructure,
:39:38. > :39:42.research bases of the future of the Welsh economy. We will make those
:39:43. > :39:45.decisions when we know the quantum of investment that will come to
:39:46. > :39:50.Wales. Alongside that there are a series of things that were promised
:39:51. > :39:54.by the previous Chancellor and the Swansea City deal and the growth
:39:55. > :39:59.deal for more fools are both things that the previous Chancellor
:40:00. > :40:07.embarked on. We want them both to be embarked on. We want to see the
:40:08. > :40:09.North Wales growth deal moved to the next phase and these are all things
:40:10. > :40:15.that which the UK Government has already identified as important
:40:16. > :40:19.investments for Wales and in my letter, I sent to the Chancellor,
:40:20. > :40:23.now is the time to push forward on those items. We have also heard this
:40:24. > :40:26.morning from John McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor for the
:40:27. > :40:31.UK Government saying he was to see an extra ?500 billion spending over
:40:32. > :40:33.the next ten years. Is that something, the scale of that,
:40:34. > :40:40.something you would be supporting as well? We need an ambition for the UK
:40:41. > :40:45.economy. But ?500 billion, is that something you would support quite
:40:46. > :40:48.categorically? The figure is for John McDonnell to identify. I would
:40:49. > :40:53.be interested in the consequential that for Wales but I definitely do
:40:54. > :40:57.share that sense of an ambition to invest, to move away from the failed
:40:58. > :41:02.policies of austerity that have dragged our economy down rather than
:41:03. > :41:06.taking it forward. We need to see a party at Westminster that has that
:41:07. > :41:11.sense of positive future ambition for Wales and for the UK economy,
:41:12. > :41:18.investment while interest rates are at historic low, governments will
:41:19. > :41:22.never borrow money more cheaply to Dave, that is definitely a passport
:41:23. > :41:29.that I endorse. How much more one needs would you like -- how much
:41:30. > :41:36.more money would you like to see the Welsh Government therefore being
:41:37. > :41:40.given? A chance to borrow more money? As we take on greater
:41:41. > :41:45.tax-raising responsibilities in Wales, so I am in negotiation with
:41:46. > :41:48.the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to increase the borrowing limit for
:41:49. > :41:54.the government in Wales. That is a simple and sensible equation. It is
:41:55. > :41:59.what is done in Scotland. I was heartened by what Lord Nick Bourne
:42:00. > :42:02.said on the house of the -- the floor of the House of Lords
:42:03. > :42:06.recently. That is part of the overall negotiation on the fiscal
:42:07. > :42:09.framework but we definitely expect to see a rise in the level of
:42:10. > :42:12.borrowing that the Welsh Government will be able to undertake in the
:42:13. > :42:16.future, as we have revenue streams to support it.
:42:17. > :42:18.Climate change is still a priority for the Welsh Government,
:42:19. > :42:19.so says Wales's Environment Secretary.
:42:20. > :42:22.She has rejected claims that she has taken her foot off
:42:23. > :42:24.the gas on the issue, after claims by green campaigners
:42:25. > :42:26.that Brexit was now dominating the political agenda.
:42:27. > :42:45.The Eiffel Tower shone bright green as the Paris agreement came into
:42:46. > :42:52.force earlier this month. Less than a year after representatives from
:42:53. > :42:57.nearly 200 countries gathered in the city to thrash out a global deal for
:42:58. > :43:01.tackling climate change, Welsh Assembly Members recently gave the
:43:02. > :43:06.document their backing to, but what progress has been made in Wales over
:43:07. > :43:11.the past 12 months to help limit global warming? A year after we last
:43:12. > :43:18.met on the day that agreement was signed, environmental campaigner
:43:19. > :43:23.gave me her assessment over a coffee. We now have framework for
:43:24. > :43:27.tackling climate change in Wales with the act adopted earlier this
:43:28. > :43:31.year but now we really need to see action. We have a new assembly and a
:43:32. > :43:38.new government and we have not seen the size that they are actually
:43:39. > :43:41.working within a carbon budget. So there needs to be action across
:43:42. > :43:48.government. How confident are you that climate change is a real
:43:49. > :43:53.priority for this Welsh Government? Certainly as a result of Brexit,
:43:54. > :43:59.other issues have been the priorities. That is the number one
:44:00. > :44:10.issue for government and across Wales. But we do have to tackle
:44:11. > :44:15.climate change and it has to be the top priority. Those are legal
:44:16. > :44:20.obligations. We cannot leave it go a few years because of Brexit.
:44:21. > :44:25.Meanwhile a recent report shows emissions in Wales have fallen by
:44:26. > :44:31.18% compared to 1990 levels. That is still a long way off the target of a
:44:32. > :44:35.40% reduction by 2020. Scotland and England have seen much greater cuts.
:44:36. > :44:39.But when it comes to recycling, Wales leads the way in the UK with
:44:40. > :44:47.55% of all waste collected in 2014 being recycled, reused or compost
:44:48. > :44:50.it. What Wales needs to do is it needs to take lessons in the areas
:44:51. > :44:54.that it is successful and take the lessons from elsewhere in the UK
:44:55. > :44:57.where we have seen policies that the Scottish Government and the UK
:44:58. > :45:01.Government in Westminster has been putting into place for example
:45:02. > :45:08.around low emission vehicles, charging infrastructure support for
:45:09. > :45:11.the industrial -based to create the low emission vehicles, we need to
:45:12. > :45:16.take the lessons from elsewhere in the UK as well as from areas that
:45:17. > :45:20.have succeeded in Wales. This year 's summit was held in Marrakesh and
:45:21. > :45:24.the Welsh Environment Secretary was there. She insists the Welsh
:45:25. > :45:28.Government takes its environmental responsibilities very seriously. It
:45:29. > :45:32.is a huge priority for Welsh Government right across government
:45:33. > :45:35.or my Cabinet Secretary colleagues are very aware of the
:45:36. > :45:39.responsibilities they have. I have just been through a series of
:45:40. > :45:43.meetings with them prior to my attendance at the meeting and I will
:45:44. > :45:47.be meeting them again following being out in Marrakesh because as
:45:48. > :45:49.you can imagine, it was an absolutely inspirational event so I
:45:50. > :45:53.have come back with lots of ideas that I want to discuss with them. Of
:45:54. > :45:58.course Brexit is an issue for us. It will have a profound effect
:45:59. > :46:01.particularly within my portfolio on the agricultural young fisheries and
:46:02. > :46:07.environmental sectors. It is very important that I balance the two
:46:08. > :46:12.things. Last year your predecessor said the Welsh Government could
:46:13. > :46:16.still reach that target of a 40% reduction in emissions by 2020. Do
:46:17. > :46:21.you think that is possible? Yes, I do. It is an ambitious target and it
:46:22. > :46:26.is challenging but if we are to have that transition, we need to make
:46:27. > :46:31.sure that we do it. The Marrakesh talks were of course dominated by
:46:32. > :46:36.reaction to Donald Trump 's win in the US. America's next president
:46:37. > :46:39.once called global warming a hoax and promised to cancel the Paris
:46:40. > :46:43.agreement. There are others closer to home will feel governments should
:46:44. > :46:49.not waste time and money trying to stop climate change. I don't think
:46:50. > :46:54.that human beings can tackle climate change. This is the point. We don't
:46:55. > :46:57.know to what extent the climate has actually changed and is likely to
:46:58. > :47:01.change any foreseeable future and even if we did, would we be able to
:47:02. > :47:11.do anything about it as remark we think not. These campaigners making
:47:12. > :47:17.their voices heard in Paris a year ago will continue to demand action
:47:18. > :47:20.and here in Wales, the new future generations Commissioner is expected
:47:21. > :47:23.to play her part in the fight against climate change.
:47:24. > :47:26.I put some of those points to the Sophie Howe and asked her
:47:27. > :47:28.whether she agreed that Brexit was pushing climate
:47:29. > :47:39.Brexit is obviously the big issue and challenge that is facing the
:47:40. > :47:43.government at the moment. It was something that they were not
:47:44. > :47:47.expecting. Not just in terms of the Welsh Government, it has obviously
:47:48. > :47:53.spun governments across the UK and abroad into a bit of a tailspin. I
:47:54. > :47:57.suppose the situation varies to be expected. We are going to have to
:47:58. > :48:02.however make sure that all of those other issues that we are expecting
:48:03. > :48:08.the Welsh Government to act on don't fall down to the bottom of the pile.
:48:09. > :48:10.How do we ensure that? We saw back in June, you wrote a very strongly
:48:11. > :48:16.worded letter to the economy secretary of the M4, outlining your
:48:17. > :48:19.concerns and telling him how you thought he should be going ahead
:48:20. > :48:27.with it. Has anything changed since that? I have had a response in which
:48:28. > :48:33.the government in my view shows that they are trying to retrofit the
:48:34. > :48:39.principles of the act. There is an issue therein that the part of the
:48:40. > :48:43.decision they can process on the M4 came into effect before the future
:48:44. > :48:46.generations at did but nevertheless, it is the government 's own
:48:47. > :48:50.legislation so they should be applying those principles. I think
:48:51. > :48:53.what that issue demonstrates and of course the issues around the M4 are
:48:54. > :48:57.very much linked back to our approach on climate change as well,
:48:58. > :49:00.but what that demonstrates is that what the future generations are
:49:01. > :49:03.going to require is a massive cultural change in the way that we
:49:04. > :49:08.start to think about taking decisions in Wales. That needs to
:49:09. > :49:10.come from the top but it seems from what you are saying, the Welsh
:49:11. > :49:14.Government is not really showing that leadership that they should be
:49:15. > :49:18.showing? I think the Welsh Government probably need to do more.
:49:19. > :49:24.I think they have got their own challenges in doing that because
:49:25. > :49:28.they have an infrastructure which for very many years have been taking
:49:29. > :49:35.decisions in a particular way, sometimes in a silo would wave, not
:49:36. > :49:39.necessarily understanding the impact of an issue in another area.
:49:40. > :49:48.Budgetary pressures are a massive issue. But then, as the
:49:49. > :49:51.Commissioner, where does your role coming to a question mark I guess
:49:52. > :49:56.you can write a letter and tell them they should be improving but as you
:49:57. > :49:59.say, they have budgets to think about and other considerations.
:50:00. > :50:04.Where is your influence coming into this? There is a few things that I
:50:05. > :50:09.can have and will continue to do. I think I can highlight the areas
:50:10. > :50:12.where they really need to be taking action and upping their game and I
:50:13. > :50:18.think climate change is one of them. I can help in terms of providing the
:50:19. > :50:21.evidence. I can help them in terms of supporting them around the
:50:22. > :50:24.culture change that is needed so that is by taking an issue and kind
:50:25. > :50:29.of modelling out what would it mean to apply the future generations act,
:50:30. > :50:33.to be thinking about the long-term and prevention and all the knock-on
:50:34. > :50:38.effects around a range of policy areas and so on and then ultimately,
:50:39. > :50:43.I have powers to challenge. I cannot compel public bodies or the
:50:44. > :50:46.government to do particular things or to take particular decisions but
:50:47. > :50:49.I can challenge the way in which they approach their decision-making.
:50:50. > :50:53.There have been complaints for years that more are needed to cope
:50:54. > :50:56.In a moment two AMs give us their view,
:50:57. > :51:04.but the Presiding Officer says she's already convinced.
:51:05. > :51:12.This place is taking on more responsibility, both legislatively
:51:13. > :51:16.and fiscally and therefore there is... There will be a price to pay
:51:17. > :51:20.if we don't do our work effectively here because of too few Assembly
:51:21. > :51:24.Members and that is why the time is absolutely right for this assembly
:51:25. > :51:26.to look at increasing the number of members.
:51:27. > :51:28.Here with me are two new AMs who have different
:51:29. > :51:35.Labour's Hefin David and Mark Reckless from Ukip.
:51:36. > :51:42.Thank you both for coming in this morning. You have just started as an
:51:43. > :51:47.Assembly Member. Was it more work than you had anticipated? No, it was
:51:48. > :51:52.about what I expected. I was working full-time and I was a councillor and
:51:53. > :51:56.chair of the committee. It is a different vocation to being a
:51:57. > :52:00.councillor. My working week would be Monday is constituency day with
:52:01. > :52:03.constituency meetings, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, chock-a-block
:52:04. > :52:08.with assembly business and Friday and Saturday mornings, I am working
:52:09. > :52:15.on casework. You used to be an MP, Mark. How does it compare? I think
:52:16. > :52:19.there is a better working culture in the assembly. In Parliament, outside
:52:20. > :52:23.of Prime Minister's Questions or a controversial statement, it would be
:52:24. > :52:26.rare to have even one in ten MPs in the chamber, whereas in the
:52:27. > :52:30.Assembly, it is the norm that most people are therefore most business
:52:31. > :52:37.and people also then serve on two or sometimes three committees. I am one
:52:38. > :52:40.of these people that watch as primary very often. And you see
:52:41. > :52:45.people there, they are not contributing all that much to
:52:46. > :52:47.debate. Perhaps they could beat doing some more scrutiny work
:52:48. > :52:52.elsewhere rather than being sitting in a debate that might be of
:52:53. > :52:55.interest -- might not be of interest to them. Maybe but it is a good
:52:56. > :53:05.culture that you have most people therefore most items of business.
:53:06. > :53:07.But in Parliament, there is an awful lot of hanging around and just
:53:08. > :53:11.waiting for votes and the opportunity to do constituency work
:53:12. > :53:16.perhaps in your office but you don't have that central of most people
:53:17. > :53:19.being in the chamber and coming to almost all their committees and from
:53:20. > :53:24.that sense, I think the Assembly, people do actually work hard. We
:53:25. > :53:29.have been hearing for years, the Richards commission backing 2002,
:53:30. > :53:31.saying there needs to be more Assembly Members. With the
:53:32. > :53:36.additional powers that you have, possibly on taxation coming up very
:53:37. > :53:40.soon, do you agree that there needs to be more Assembly Members can mark
:53:41. > :53:43.far be it for me to disagree with the presiding officer but it is not
:53:44. > :53:48.something that keeps me awake at night. In my constituency I am
:53:49. > :53:53.concerned about how we are going to bring jobs and good jobs to the
:53:54. > :53:55.northern valleys and other Assembly Members are concerned about similar
:53:56. > :53:59.things in their constituencies but if we are to achieve these things,
:54:00. > :54:03.we need a functional democracy. Asking the question is a good thing.
:54:04. > :54:07.Do we need Assembly Members to be taking on more work and one of the
:54:08. > :54:13.things I would also say is let's take a nonparty government minister,
:54:14. > :54:19.does a government minister want more or less Assembly Members
:54:20. > :54:21.scrutinising their work, more or less Mark miraculous examination
:54:22. > :54:26.what they are up to and also I speak for myself as a backbencher in the
:54:27. > :54:31.governing party, people like me with a job to do as a critical friend, is
:54:32. > :54:35.that a good thing to have more scrutinising government policy?
:54:36. > :54:42.Presumably, yes. So you are in favour of having more. But maybe not
:54:43. > :54:45.on the streets campaigning for it. It is not something that keeps me
:54:46. > :54:53.awake but it is something I would like to have a conversation about.
:54:54. > :54:57.Mark Reckless, Ukip 's manifesto was quite clear, saying you would oppose
:54:58. > :55:04.any more Assembly Members. Now that you are an Assembly Member, does
:55:05. > :55:07.that still hold? That is the position we have taken. And I think
:55:08. > :55:12.it is really difficult to make the case that we should have more
:55:13. > :55:16.politicians, let alone that people should get less money spent on
:55:17. > :55:19.public services or pay more in taxes in order to pay for more politicians
:55:20. > :55:25.and I think that is the real difficulty and partly we have, I
:55:26. > :55:28.think, underemployed Welsh MPs at Westminster who cannot vote on the
:55:29. > :55:32.laws we vote for most of the devolved areas but also cannot fault
:55:33. > :55:35.on most stages of laws that only affect England and there is 40 of
:55:36. > :55:40.them with much smaller constituencies than average. But
:55:41. > :55:45.there will be fewer of them by possibly the next election. You are
:55:46. > :55:55.answering it it with a different question. Do there need to be more
:55:56. > :55:58.semi-members? We suggest MPs, perhaps also a panel of local
:55:59. > :56:02.councillors to help with some of the work but we are prepared to engage
:56:03. > :56:06.with the debate. I do respect the presiding officer and I want to
:56:07. > :56:12.listen to what she says but it does unnerve me when I hear some people
:56:13. > :56:16.talking that we should have 80, 90, 100, with no regard to the cost of
:56:17. > :56:21.that. If people wanted to make a case for ten or 15 or some much
:56:22. > :56:25.smaller number and say this is where we would make savings in order to
:56:26. > :56:30.pay for it then I would want to listen to what they say. It is not a
:56:31. > :56:38.know on a matter of principle from you then. No more costly increases
:56:39. > :56:43.was the manifesto. But he would be happy to have a few more. We are not
:56:44. > :56:50.convinced because we do not think it is to easy to justify the spending.
:56:51. > :56:55.I cherished committee where most of the areas where we work are in
:56:56. > :56:58.theory devolved but in practice, the power lives at European level and I
:56:59. > :57:02.want to see those powers properly used and I would like to see it
:57:03. > :57:10.possible to do it with the existing budget that we have. There were 108
:57:11. > :57:15.Assembly Members in Northern Ireland serving a smaller population. We are
:57:16. > :57:18.the smallest Parliament in the UK. One of the things that Mark Reckless
:57:19. > :57:22.has raised is the number of MPs and there are going to be fewer MPs and
:57:23. > :57:25.I was at a seminar with Mark on Tuesday morning in which they were
:57:26. > :57:29.raising legal concerns about the capacity of the assembly to deal
:57:30. > :57:35.with Brexit and Mark was concerned with that. I think there is a
:57:36. > :57:40.legitimate case. I agree with what he says about the chamber. There is
:57:41. > :57:46.clearly a working... Although he was not there for my debate last
:57:47. > :57:54.Wednesday. The short debates are the one exception. But in terms of use
:57:55. > :58:02.saying there need to be more, be a number. Northern Ireland with a
:58:03. > :58:07.different set of needs therefore the legislative year. How many are
:58:08. > :58:16.needed? I think we need to open a conversation. What is the
:58:17. > :58:19.realistic... Open it with a number. David Rowlands said to me, I didn't
:58:20. > :58:23.expect the work to be this hard and I wasn't expecting it to be so much.
:58:24. > :58:27.To be fair, he did also say he was enjoying it. We need to have a
:58:28. > :58:32.conversation about what that working tales before we talk about numbers.
:58:33. > :58:37.I am not going to give you a number because it is up to the public
:58:38. > :58:41.conversation to indicate the kind of assembly and democracy we want but
:58:42. > :58:45.we need a democracy that enables us to do our work. One of the big
:58:46. > :58:49.difference is I guess between Westminster and Cardiff Bay are the
:58:50. > :58:54.hours, far longer hours in Westminster, family friendly hours
:58:55. > :58:57.in Cardiff Bay. Before we look at more Assembly Members, increasing
:58:58. > :59:02.the numbers, should we look at few days off, fewer holidays and longer
:59:03. > :59:07.hours? I think the longer hours at Westminster are particular the well
:59:08. > :59:10.used. But you say the working conditions in the Sevilla better. If
:59:11. > :59:16.you could lengthen those hours but still be working in a more efficient
:59:17. > :59:22.way? It is different if you can live... I represent an area close to
:59:23. > :59:27.Cardiff and that makes it much easier to maintain a family life and
:59:28. > :59:34.other Assembly Members commuting from North Wales or West Wales.
:59:35. > :59:40.Darren Millar was saying it takes in four hours to get to Cardiff Bay. If
:59:41. > :59:45.he was an MP, his trip would be easier. It is not universally family
:59:46. > :59:50.friendly. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night, I am back quite
:59:51. > :59:54.late. Thank you both for coming in this morning. That is it from me.
:59:55. > :59:55.Diolch am wylio - thanks for watching, time
:59:56. > :00:01.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:00:02. > :00:10.should spend more time on. Back to you.
:00:11. > :00:14.What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
:00:15. > :00:17.What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy?
:00:18. > :00:20.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:21. > :00:35.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:36. > :00:36.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:37. > :00:43.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:44. > :00:46.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:47. > :00:49.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:50. > :00:52.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:53. > :00:55.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:56. > :01:00.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:01:01. > :01:03.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:04. > :01:08.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:09. > :01:11.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:12. > :01:14.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:15. > :01:18.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:19. > :01:32.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:33. > :01:40.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:41. > :01:45.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:46. > :01:49.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:50. > :01:58.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:59. > :02:02.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:03. > :02:07.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:08. > :02:11.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:12. > :02:20.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:21. > :02:28.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:29. > :02:32.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:33. > :02:36.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:37. > :02:47.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:48. > :02:50.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:51. > :02:53.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:54. > :02:58.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:59. > :03:05.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:06. > :03:12.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:13. > :03:15.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:16. > :03:19.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:20. > :03:23.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:24. > :03:28.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:29. > :03:33.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:34. > :03:37.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:38. > :03:42.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:43. > :03:46.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions,
:03:47. > :03:54.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:55. > :03:57.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:58. > :04:01.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:04:02. > :04:08.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:09. > :04:15.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:16. > :04:20.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:21. > :04:28.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:29. > :04:38.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:39. > :04:43.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:44. > :04:46.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:47. > :04:55.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:56. > :05:01.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:05:02. > :05:05.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:06. > :05:10.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:11. > :05:13.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:14. > :05:21.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:22. > :05:26.pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:27. > :05:32.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:33. > :05:36.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:37. > :05:41.pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020,
:05:42. > :05:46.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:47. > :05:55.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:56. > :06:02.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:06:03. > :06:05.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:06. > :06:09.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:10. > :06:16.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:17. > :06:25.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:26. > :06:32.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:33. > :06:37.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:38. > :06:40.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:41. > :06:45.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:46. > :06:48.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:49. > :06:53.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:54. > :06:57.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:58. > :07:03.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:04. > :07:06.did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given
:07:07. > :07:12.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:13. > :07:17.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:18. > :07:24.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:25. > :07:31.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring.
:07:32. > :07:33.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:34. > :07:34.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:35. > :07:36.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:37. > :07:38.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:39. > :07:41.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:42. > :07:44.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:45. > :07:48.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:49. > :08:01.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:08:02. > :08:05.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:06. > :08:09.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:10. > :08:24.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:25. > :08:27.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:28. > :08:32.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:33. > :08:38.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:39. > :08:43.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:44. > :08:48.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:49. > :08:52.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:53. > :08:59.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:09:00. > :09:02.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:03. > :09:07.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:08. > :09:12.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:13. > :09:17.surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a
:09:18. > :09:21.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:22. > :09:29.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:30. > :09:32.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:33. > :09:36.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:37. > :09:41.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:42. > :09:43.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:44. > :09:47.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:48. > :09:53.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:54. > :10:02.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:10:03. > :10:10.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:11. > :10:15.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done.
:10:16. > :10:20.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:21. > :10:25.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:26. > :10:34.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it
:10:35. > :10:41.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:42. > :10:45.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:46. > :10:48.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:49. > :10:52.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:53. > :10:56.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:57. > :11:00.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:11:01. > :11:07.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:08. > :11:11.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:12. > :11:14.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:15. > :11:22.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:23. > :11:29.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:30. > :11:35.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:36. > :11:46.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:47. > :11:49.Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:50. > :11:55.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:56. > :11:59.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:12:00. > :12:14.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:15. > :12:23.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:24. > :12:30.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:31. > :12:32.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:33. > :12:36.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:37. > :12:41.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:42. > :12:50.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:51. > :12:53.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:54. > :12:58.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:59. > :13:05.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:06. > :13:12.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:13. > :13:14.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:15. > :13:19.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:20. > :13:22.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:23. > :14:01.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:02. > :14:07.That could be a pile of workers on't scrapheap.
:14:08. > :14:10.It's not just the end of an industry -
:14:11. > :14:13.Everybody's absolutely devastated by it.