:00:38. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:46. > :00:48.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:49. > :00:52.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:53. > :00:55.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:56. > :00:58.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:59. > :01:10.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:11. > :01:13.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:14. > :01:16.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:17. > :01:18.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:19. > :01:20.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:21. > :01:31.Later in the programme. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:32. > :01:33.Leanne Wood live, on where she thinks Labour
:01:34. > :01:49.is going wrong on Brexit, and will the Metro really breathe
:01:50. > :01:53.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:54. > :01:54.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:55. > :01:56.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:57. > :01:59.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:02:00. > :02:01.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:02. > :02:08.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:09. > :02:14.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:15. > :02:20.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:21. > :02:23.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:24. > :02:26.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:27. > :02:31.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:32. > :02:35.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:36. > :02:38.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:39. > :02:44.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:45. > :02:51.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:52. > :02:57.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:58. > :03:07.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:08. > :03:11.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:12. > :03:13.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:14. > :03:23.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:24. > :03:30.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:31. > :03:34.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:35. > :03:36.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:37. > :03:39."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:40. > :03:53.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:54. > :03:58.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:59. > :04:02.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:03. > :04:05.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:06. > :04:21.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:22. > :04:24.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:25. > :04:28.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:29. > :04:32.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:33. > :04:34.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:35. > :04:39.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:40. > :04:44.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:45. > :04:47.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:48. > :04:55.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:56. > :05:00.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:05:01. > :05:07.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:08. > :05:15.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:16. > :05:19.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:20. > :05:25.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:26. > :05:31.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:32. > :05:36.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:37. > :05:40.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:41. > :05:45.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:46. > :05:52.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:53. > :05:56.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:57. > :06:00.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:01. > :06:05.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:06. > :06:09.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:10. > :06:13.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:14. > :06:17.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:18. > :06:22.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:23. > :06:26.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:27. > :06:29.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:30. > :06:35.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:36. > :06:41.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:42. > :06:46.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:47. > :06:50.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:51. > :06:56.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:57. > :07:01.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:02. > :07:06.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:07. > :07:09.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:10. > :07:14.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:15. > :07:17.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:18. > :07:23.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:24. > :07:29.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:30. > :07:33.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:34. > :07:36.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:37. > :07:43.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:44. > :07:47.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:48. > :07:50.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:51. > :07:58.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:59. > :08:01.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:02. > :08:07.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:08. > :08:12.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:13. > :08:19.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:20. > :08:23.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:24. > :08:26.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:27. > :08:32.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:33. > :08:36.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:37. > :08:41.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:42. > :08:46.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:47. > :08:48.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:49. > :08:50.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:51. > :08:53.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:54. > :08:55.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:56. > :08:58.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:59. > :08:59.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:09:00. > :09:01.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:02. > :09:11.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:12. > :09:13.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:14. > :09:16.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:17. > :09:18.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:19. > :09:20.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:21. > :09:26.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:27. > :09:35.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:36. > :09:37.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:38. > :09:41.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:42. > :09:46.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:47. > :09:50.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:51. > :09:54.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:55. > :09:55.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:56. > :09:58.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:59. > :10:03.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:04. > :10:11.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:12. > :10:14.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:15. > :10:17.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:18. > :10:19.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:20. > :10:22.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:23. > :10:24.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:25. > :10:28.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:29. > :10:30.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:31. > :10:33.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:34. > :10:35.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:36. > :10:43.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:44. > :10:46.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:47. > :10:49.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:50. > :10:51.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:52. > :10:57.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:58. > :11:00.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:01. > :11:02.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:03. > :11:08.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:09. > :11:10.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:11. > :11:13.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:14. > :11:16.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:17. > :11:18.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:19. > :11:22.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:23. > :11:24.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:25. > :11:32.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:33. > :11:35.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:36. > :11:38.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:39. > :11:40.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:41. > :11:42.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:43. > :11:48.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:49. > :11:51.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:52. > :11:54.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:55. > :11:55.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:56. > :11:58.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:59. > :12:14.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:15. > :12:17.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:18. > :12:18.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:19. > :12:24.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:25. > :12:25.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:26. > :12:34.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:35. > :12:40.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:41. > :12:43.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:44. > :12:45.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:46. > :12:49.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:50. > :12:54.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:55. > :13:00.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:13:01. > :13:03.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:04. > :13:10.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:11. > :13:15.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:16. > :13:20.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:21. > :13:24.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:25. > :13:27.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:28. > :13:33.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:34. > :13:39.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:40. > :13:41.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:42. > :13:45.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:46. > :13:51.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:52. > :13:56.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:57. > :14:00.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:14:01. > :14:04.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:05. > :14:07.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:08. > :14:10.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:11. > :14:15.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:16. > :14:20.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:21. > :14:23.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:24. > :14:28.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:29. > :14:31.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:32. > :14:36.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:37. > :14:41.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:42. > :14:45.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:46. > :14:50.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:51. > :14:57.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:58. > :15:02.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:03. > :15:09.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:10. > :15:12.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:13. > :15:15.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:16. > :15:19.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:20. > :15:31.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:32. > :15:39.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:40. > :15:44.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:45. > :15:48.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:49. > :15:52.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:53. > :15:57.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:58. > :16:01.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:02. > :16:04.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:05. > :16:09.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:10. > :16:16.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:17. > :16:19.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:20. > :16:29.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:30. > :16:35.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:36. > :16:40.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:41. > :16:43.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:44. > :16:49.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:50. > :16:54.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:55. > :16:57.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:58. > :17:01.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:02. > :17:06.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:07. > :17:12.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:13. > :17:17.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:18. > :17:20.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:21. > :17:27.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:28. > :17:31.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:32. > :17:34.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:35. > :17:38.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:39. > :17:44.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:45. > :17:52.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:53. > :18:00.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:18:01. > :18:06.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:07. > :18:12.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:13. > :18:19.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:20. > :18:23.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:24. > :18:30.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:31. > :18:34.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:35. > :18:38.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:39. > :18:46.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:47. > :18:50.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:51. > :18:54.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:55. > :18:59.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:19:00. > :19:03.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:04. > :19:11.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:12. > :19:14.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:15. > :19:22.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:23. > :19:28.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:29. > :19:34.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:35. > :19:38.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:39. > :19:44.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:45. > :19:50.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:51. > :19:59.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:20:00. > :20:03.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:04. > :20:07.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:08. > :20:11.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:12. > :20:15.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:16. > :20:23.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:24. > :20:27.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:28. > :20:31.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:32. > :20:39.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:40. > :20:45.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:46. > :20:49.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:50. > :20:52.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:53. > :20:59.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:21:00. > :21:06.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:07. > :21:10.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:11. > :21:14.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:15. > :21:19.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:20. > :21:24.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:25. > :21:28.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:29. > :21:33.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:34. > :21:39.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:40. > :21:50.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:51. > :21:57.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:58. > :22:03.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:04. > :22:07.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:08. > :22:15.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:16. > :22:23.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:24. > :22:27.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:28. > :22:33.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:34. > :22:37.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:38. > :22:39.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:40. > :22:42.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:43. > :22:45.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:46. > :22:47.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:48. > :22:49.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:50. > :22:53.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:54. > :22:56.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:57. > :22:57.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:58. > :23:06.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:07. > :23:08.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:09. > :23:12.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:13. > :23:15.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:16. > :23:19.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:20. > :23:21.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:22. > :23:25.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:26. > :23:30.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:31. > :23:35.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:36. > :23:47.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:48. > :23:50.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:51. > :23:59.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:24:00. > :24:02.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:03. > :24:05.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:06. > :24:08.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:09. > :24:11.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:12. > :24:15.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:16. > :24:16.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:17. > :24:19.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:20. > :24:25.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:26. > :24:28.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:29. > :24:30.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:31. > :24:36.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:37. > :24:41.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:42. > :24:43.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:44. > :24:53.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:54. > :24:58.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:59. > :25:02.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:03. > :25:06.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:07. > :25:11.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:12. > :25:14.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:15. > :25:16.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:17. > :25:18.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:19. > :25:26.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:27. > :25:31.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:32. > :25:38.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:39. > :25:46.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:47. > :25:53.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:54. > :25:58.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:59. > :26:02.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:03. > :26:12.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:13. > :26:15.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:16. > :26:21.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:22. > :26:25.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:26. > :26:30.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:31. > :26:34.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:35. > :26:39.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:40. > :26:42.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:43. > :26:48.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:49. > :26:54.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:55. > :26:59.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:27:00. > :27:06.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:07. > :27:11.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:12. > :27:16.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:17. > :27:20.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:21. > :27:25.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:26. > :27:30.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:31. > :27:35.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:36. > :27:41.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:42. > :27:44.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:45. > :27:49.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:50. > :27:55.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:56. > :27:59.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:28:00. > :28:05.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:06. > :28:09.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:10. > :28:14.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:15. > :28:18.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:19. > :28:24.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:25. > :28:29.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:30. > :28:33.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:34. > :28:40.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:41. > :28:43.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:44. > :28:49.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:50. > :28:54.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:55. > :28:58.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:59. > :29:01.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:02. > :29:08.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:09. > :29:12.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:13. > :29:17.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:18. > :29:20.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:21. > :29:26.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:27. > :29:32.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:33. > :29:39.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:40. > :29:43.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:44. > :29:47.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:48. > :29:55.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:56. > :29:57.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:58. > :30:08.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:09. > :30:12.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:13. > :30:18.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:19. > :30:22.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:23. > :30:27.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:28. > :30:31.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:32. > :30:36.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:37. > :30:40.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:41. > :30:45.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:46. > :30:51.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:52. > :30:56.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:57. > :30:59.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:31:00. > :31:07.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:08. > :31:13.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:14. > :31:23.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:24. > :31:27.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:28. > :31:34.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:35. > :31:37.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:38. > :31:40.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:41. > :31:44.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:45. > :31:49.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:50. > :31:52.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:53. > :31:58.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:59. > :32:03.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:04. > :32:08.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:09. > :32:13.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:14. > :32:20.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:21. > :32:24.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:25. > :32:31.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:32. > :32:35.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:36. > :32:40.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:41. > :32:44.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:45. > :32:49.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:50. > :32:55.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:56. > :33:03.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:04. > :33:07.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:08. > :33:14.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:15. > :33:17.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:18. > :33:22.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:23. > :33:26.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:27. > :33:28.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:29. > :33:32.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:33. > :33:37.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:38. > :33:41.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:42. > :33:47.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:48. > :33:55.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:56. > :34:02.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:03. > :34:08.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:09. > :34:12.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:13. > :34:17.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:18. > :34:24.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:25. > :34:28.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:29. > :34:33.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:34. > :34:37.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:38. > :34:42.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:43. > :34:45.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:46. > :34:51.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:52. > :34:56.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:57. > :34:59.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:35:00. > :35:02.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:03. > :35:08.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:09. > :35:12.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:13. > :35:19.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:20. > :35:23.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:24. > :35:29.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:30. > :35:34.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:35. > :35:39.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:40. > :35:45.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:46. > :35:50.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:51. > :35:54.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:55. > :35:58.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:59. > :36:00.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:01. > :36:05.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:06. > :36:09.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:10. > :36:13.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:14. > :36:19.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:20. > :36:23.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:24. > :36:27.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:28. > :36:31.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:32. > :36:35.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:36. > :36:39.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:40. > :36:44.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:45. > :36:48.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:49. > :36:50.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:51. > :36:55.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:56. > :37:00.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:37:01. > :37:02.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:03. > :37:04.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:05. > :37:08.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:09. > :37:10.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:11. > :37:12.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:13. > :37:22.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:23. > :37:25.Hello, and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:37:26. > :37:30.The Metro has been hailed as a shot in the arm for the economy,
:37:31. > :37:34.but how long will it be before the effects are felt on the ground?
:37:35. > :37:37.And the Institute of Welsh Affairs has spent nearly 30 years thinking
:37:38. > :37:42.Its new director will be here to tell us about her
:37:43. > :37:48.But first, this morning Plaid Cymru has accused Labour of giving
:37:49. > :37:53.the Prime Minister what it's calling a blank cheque on Brexit.
:37:54. > :37:55.The party says Labour divisions mean it cannot scrutinise
:37:56. > :38:03.But what does Plaid mean by that and what would it do instead?
:38:04. > :38:07.Well, the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, is here with me now.
:38:08. > :38:18.Thank you for coming in. What do you mean, they're handing Theresa May a
:38:19. > :38:22.blank cheque on Brexit? We have no idea what the UK Government's plans
:38:23. > :38:28.are for Brexit. We do not know what it would mean for the Welsh economy,
:38:29. > :38:33.for jobs, for the agricultural industry, for things like workers'
:38:34. > :38:38.rights, human rights, protection for the environment. And until we have
:38:39. > :38:42.some clarity, and what I want to be satisfied of, is that Wales and
:38:43. > :38:48.people in Wales are not going to be significantly worse off as a result
:38:49. > :38:51.of the kind of Brexit that is negotiated, we're not prepared to
:38:52. > :38:55.give them a blank cheque and we do not think Labour should either.
:38:56. > :39:04.Presumably nobody wants to see Wales worse off as a result of Brexit, but
:39:05. > :39:06.then it is just a matter of, how long can we have this idea from
:39:07. > :39:08.Theresa May, she has said she will not discuss her negotiating
:39:09. > :39:13.position, and Labour have said they want to see a plan. That seems fair
:39:14. > :39:18.enough. We want to be able to scrutinise that plan. So does
:39:19. > :39:26.Labour. You're criticising them, but they have asked for a plan. C what
:39:27. > :39:29.they come up with. So far we have seen no evidence that they have any
:39:30. > :39:35.kind of a plan. They are rudderless, and frankly Lee Briers well. We have
:39:36. > :39:39.no sense of clarity from Labour about the kind of Brexit that they
:39:40. > :39:45.want to see. Some are saying that they want more of a hard Brexit,
:39:46. > :39:48.others are softer Brexit, someone continuation of movement of people.
:39:49. > :39:52.Others are concerned that that would play into the hands of Ukip. Unless
:39:53. > :39:56.we have got clarity and one single position coming from the main
:39:57. > :40:01.opposition in Westminster, then frankly they are not doing their
:40:02. > :40:06.job. That is your attack on Labour. Fine. What will we see from Plaid
:40:07. > :40:12.Cymru? You have said that you want to see membership of the single
:40:13. > :40:16.market retained, even if that means no curbs on immigration, people can
:40:17. > :40:21.come as they wish from the EU, is that still what you want to see? Let
:40:22. > :40:23.us be clear, the question of immigration was not on the ballot
:40:24. > :40:29.paper. The question on the ballot paper was, do you want to remain a
:40:30. > :40:32.relief the European Union? I accept some people voted to leave because
:40:33. > :40:37.they were chiefly concerned about immigration. But if you look at the
:40:38. > :40:41.figures, especially as they pertain to Wales, then immigration is not a
:40:42. > :40:47.great problem. So what I am not prepared to do is pander to Ukip by
:40:48. > :40:51.pretending that immigration is this huge problem, when only 2.6% of the
:40:52. > :40:56.Welsh population come from the European Union. So what exactly are
:40:57. > :41:02.we trying to curb here? So you are happy here, happy that they would
:41:03. > :41:06.not be any curbs on immigration from the EU? Are you happy with that post
:41:07. > :41:12.Brexit? Is that what you're calling for? You want clarity from Labour,
:41:13. > :41:18.let us have clarity from Plaid Cymru. I want to tackle the issues
:41:19. > :41:25.that people face, low wages, poor housing. I want to stay on
:41:26. > :41:30.immigration. People are blaming immigration for the effect of cuts
:41:31. > :41:37.from Westminster. What is Plaid Cymru's policy? It is about tackling
:41:38. > :41:42.the problems that people have, not perceived problems, real problems.
:41:43. > :41:47.So you do not need to tackle immigration? I am saying there is a
:41:48. > :41:52.lack of clarity from Plaid Cymru. I am saying to you immigration is not
:41:53. > :41:55.a problem. I am saying to you that if we could immigration then there
:41:56. > :42:00.is a very real risk to some industries and some places. The
:42:01. > :42:05.tourism industry, for example, the NHS relies on Labour from overseas.
:42:06. > :42:10.There is much that we need to do in terms of protecting the Welsh
:42:11. > :42:14.language, and Welsh culture and Welsh communities, but what we are
:42:15. > :42:21.talking about in terms of the immigration debate is not touching
:42:22. > :42:25.any of the real immigration issues that Wales faces. We're talking all
:42:26. > :42:29.the time about the perceived problems, and I am not prepared to
:42:30. > :42:33.follow what Ukip say, that immigration is this massive problem,
:42:34. > :42:36.when the facts do not bear that out when you look at the figures as they
:42:37. > :42:43.pertain to Wales. If that is the case and if immigration is not a
:42:44. > :42:48.problem, why is Plaid Cymru and year spokesman calling for a Norwegian
:42:49. > :42:53.stale model we can only go there, as he says, if you have got a job?
:42:54. > :42:57.Because people voted to leave the European Union and we recognise the
:42:58. > :43:02.vote, even though we may not like it. If you do not think it is a
:43:03. > :43:06.problem, why are you seeking to address it? People voted to leave,
:43:07. > :43:11.so what we do know is we discuss the best kind of Brexit possible for
:43:12. > :43:15.Wales. The least worst option, if you like. We have come up with the
:43:16. > :43:20.Norwegian model is the least harmful model for Wales. That would enable
:43:21. > :43:26.us to retain an element of freedom of movement. Yes, we could be a bit
:43:27. > :43:30.more picky about that, but it would enable us to protect the Welsh NHS
:43:31. > :43:36.and the sustainability of some of those industries that currently rely
:43:37. > :43:40.on Labour from overseas. What you understand the Norwegian model to
:43:41. > :43:44.be? Adam Price has said that you have to have a pre-identified job
:43:45. > :43:48.before you can go to normally, but that is not the case according to
:43:49. > :43:52.the Foreign Office, and websites advising people on moving to
:43:53. > :43:58.normally, you can go there for six months to look for work. So what you
:43:59. > :44:04.want? That people can come to Wales for six months, or that they have to
:44:05. > :44:09.have a job? I want maximum flexibility, my chief concern is the
:44:10. > :44:13.Welsh economy. As with having that element of flexibility by allowing
:44:14. > :44:16.people to come per six months to try out a job or a look for a job before
:44:17. > :44:21.the permanently reside, I would be open to that kind of thing. At the
:44:22. > :44:24.end of the day, what is really important if the 200,000 jobs that
:44:25. > :44:31.are reliant on the single market. Those industries that are reliant on
:44:32. > :44:34.cooperation with other European countries. I want to hang on to as
:44:35. > :44:40.much of that as we possibly can to protect those jobs. It has been a
:44:41. > :44:46.momentous year in politics, I want to book ahead no to next year. And
:44:47. > :44:50.to the council elections. You have had a good few sets of council
:44:51. > :44:56.elections in the past, not so good last time, what will you be hoping
:44:57. > :45:01.for? We will be looking to establish representation in new areas. We will
:45:02. > :45:04.be looking to fieldwork candidates and we ever have before and we will
:45:05. > :45:08.be looking to win more council seats than we ever have before. We are in
:45:09. > :45:13.quite a strong and confident place to be able to do that. We are
:45:14. > :45:16.obviously running a number of councils and there have been
:45:17. > :45:24.councils that we have run in the past that we would be looking to be
:45:25. > :45:32.in the driving seat of again. We also are very keen to break through
:45:33. > :45:34.to new ground. And to give people a Plaid Cymru representative in some
:45:35. > :45:41.of those communities that might not have seen them. Are those previous
:45:42. > :45:48.councils targets you are aiming for? I'm trying to see what your ambition
:45:49. > :45:55.is. I have outlined by ambition. Is that a target? I have outlined you
:45:56. > :45:59.what we want to achieve. We go into that in a good position. I am not
:46:00. > :46:05.going to name places as targets for anime particular seats or even
:46:06. > :46:14.councillors. I am not getting into it. We want to keep the seats and we
:46:15. > :46:28.have got we have excellent councillors throughout the country
:46:29. > :46:33.and the running of the councils that we run, we want to gain on ground in
:46:34. > :46:37.those places. So we will not get much from you in targets. In the
:46:38. > :46:40.spring next year, it will be five years since she became leader of
:46:41. > :46:48.Plaid Cymru. How long do you think you will remain as leader? How long
:46:49. > :47:02.is a piece of string? How long would you like it to be? That is a matter
:47:03. > :47:04.for the membership of Plaid Cymru. Thank you very much for your time
:47:05. > :47:05.this morning. Now, we've heard a lot
:47:06. > :47:08.about the South Wales Metro. It's meant to be a shot
:47:09. > :47:11.in the arm for the economy, we shouldn't rely on it bringing
:47:12. > :47:17.all that's been promised. This week the First Minister
:47:18. > :47:19.went to Brussels So how much of a difference
:47:20. > :47:23.will it make? We sent Cemlyn Davies
:47:24. > :47:28.on a trip to find out. It's an ambitious vision to connect
:47:29. > :47:30.communities across South The Metro network could consist
:47:31. > :47:34.of trams, buses and trains, running from Monmouth to Maesteg,
:47:35. > :47:40.from Bargoed to Barry. There are plans for new stations,
:47:41. > :47:45.new routes, new opportunities. In Treharris, a typical Valleys
:47:46. > :47:47.town, there's impatience Just 17 miles from Cardiff
:47:48. > :47:54.and a stone's throw from the A470, The buses, they don't go
:47:55. > :48:01.very often around here. The train station, you have
:48:02. > :48:04.to walk quite a way to it, so it would be nice,
:48:05. > :48:06.yes, it would be great. I haven't heard about it,
:48:07. > :48:08.though, yet, at the moment. The Metro would be great,
:48:09. > :48:13.it would be for commuting to Cardiff, so, yes,
:48:14. > :48:16.I think it is a great idea. This man runs a cafe
:48:17. > :48:19.in the town centre. He told me many people have
:48:20. > :48:21.had to leave Treharris because of the poor
:48:22. > :48:24.commuter connections. But is he worried improved links
:48:25. > :48:31.could also put customers away? We would like to think that
:48:32. > :48:33.with the Metro system, or somewhere where we had a stop
:48:34. > :48:36.positioned in Treharris, that it would have the reverse effect,
:48:37. > :48:39.where it would actually bring people into the village, as opposed
:48:40. > :48:41.to people leaving the village And that would then
:48:42. > :48:48.boost the economy? Hopefully that would
:48:49. > :48:54.benefit the local economy, us as is a business,
:48:55. > :48:57.right in the heart of the village, hopefully it would actually boost
:48:58. > :48:59.the area in general, which personally I think
:49:00. > :49:01.is much needed. Treharris did used to have a train
:49:02. > :49:04.station, and this is where it was. In this area here where
:49:05. > :49:09.the playground is, this Ernie used to catch the train
:49:10. > :49:14.here himself to get to work before He and his co-counsellor believe
:49:15. > :49:19.the metro would boost this area. I do spend quite a bit
:49:20. > :49:21.of time in Manchester, and the Metro system there links
:49:22. > :49:24.in all the outlying Something like that would be
:49:25. > :49:35.a massive boost to South East Wales. It is a win-win situation
:49:36. > :49:39.for everybody, isn't it? If you open up these little towns
:49:40. > :49:43.again so that people can come there, and you get the little individual
:49:44. > :49:46.shops, a fishing tackle shop is only in Treharris,
:49:47. > :49:48.where everybody comes for that, or there is a great fashion shop
:49:49. > :49:51.in Nelson, and everybody goes. So if you open that up,
:49:52. > :50:05.you would not have... You wouldn't have the high
:50:06. > :50:07.street stores, obviously, but you would have that individual
:50:08. > :50:09.business, and that makes for an interesting and a pleasant
:50:10. > :50:13.little town to visit as well. In Treharris they're
:50:14. > :50:15.clearly confident the metro But what is the view
:50:16. > :50:20.further down the line Whether it is likely will depend
:50:21. > :50:26.on whether there is anything There is a requirement to build
:50:27. > :50:29.products, destinations, interesting things to do and see
:50:30. > :50:32.that the railway enables, not to expect the railway
:50:33. > :50:36.or tramline or a light rail, whatever it is, to in and of itself
:50:37. > :50:38.transform these places. I would certainly think
:50:39. > :50:42.places north of the M4, will have an easier time of it
:50:43. > :50:45.when the railway is there, But it will require complementary
:50:46. > :50:49.investment in skills and training, With a potential final price tag
:50:50. > :50:55.of several billion pounds, this project is unlike any other
:50:56. > :50:57.the Welsh government It is a huge challenge
:50:58. > :51:08.for civil servants, told me things are progressing well,
:51:09. > :51:13.and the procurement The initial work, costing
:51:14. > :51:17.more than ?700 million, will focus on the Valleys lines,
:51:18. > :51:19.with the first Metro services up However, it could take many more
:51:20. > :51:23.years for this vision The problem with that is,
:51:24. > :51:27.the people Treharris do not The management of this process,
:51:28. > :51:33.expectations management, between this big shiny Metro
:51:34. > :51:36.and the reality of what will be an incremental, long-term
:51:37. > :51:39.development of a very interesting mix of technologies, that is quite
:51:40. > :51:41.a difficult thing to manage. People's expectations,
:51:42. > :51:43.against the reality of what is The Metro was seen as key
:51:44. > :51:50.to the success of the ?1.2 billion Cardiff City deal between the Welsh
:51:51. > :51:52.and UK governments under A big chunk of that money has been
:51:53. > :51:58.earmarked for the scheme and, later this week, a commission set up
:51:59. > :52:02.as part of the agreement will publish a report outlining how
:52:03. > :52:04.else the region's economy Well, we put some of those points
:52:05. > :52:12.to the Economy Secretary Ken Skates, My colleague Dan Davies caught up
:52:13. > :52:20.with him at the Assembly and began by asking him when exactly the first
:52:21. > :52:23.Metro services would begin. By 2023, we hope to have Metro
:52:24. > :52:32.services up and running, the Metro franchise is part
:52:33. > :52:35.of the Wales and Borders franchise, which will commence in 2018,
:52:36. > :52:38.we hope to have diggers in the ground towards the end
:52:39. > :52:41.of this decade, and the Metro will be a transformational piece
:52:42. > :52:43.of infrastructure for South Wales. We have been speaking
:52:44. > :52:48.to an economist who says that the Metro itself is not
:52:49. > :52:50.going to be enough to regenerate
:52:51. > :52:51.Valleys communities. Do you agree with that?
:52:52. > :52:54.What else needs to be done? There are a number of essential
:52:55. > :52:56.factors that determine the economic
:52:57. > :53:03.success of a region. One is infrastructure -
:53:04. > :53:05.in this regard the Metro is absolutely crucial
:53:06. > :53:07.in transforming the Valleys. We have to people equipped
:53:08. > :53:13.with the right skills to be able to feel economic growth,
:53:14. > :53:17.and that is why the Valleys task force is looking at how we can
:53:18. > :53:19.improve the skills base But in itself it is
:53:20. > :53:22.a transformational piece This will connect many communities
:53:23. > :53:26.that are currently feeling quite isolated and disconnected
:53:27. > :53:27.from the capital. I have been very clear all along
:53:28. > :53:30.that the Metro should primarily It should not be seen
:53:31. > :53:33.as a Cardiff-centric And for that reason I said early
:53:34. > :53:39.on in my appointment that the headquarters for Transport
:53:40. > :53:42.for Wales should be located Isn't there a danger that
:53:43. > :53:48.if you make it easier for people to get to Cardiff you just
:53:49. > :53:51.suck all the economic activity into Cardiff,
:53:52. > :53:52.and other places, Conversely, it actually
:53:53. > :53:57.makes it easier to get investment into the Valleys,
:53:58. > :53:59.and that is why you have to ensure the skills
:54:00. > :54:01.are there within the Valleys We will see more people
:54:02. > :54:07.travelling into the capital, but we would hope to see more
:54:08. > :54:09.investment travelling For that reason, we are going to be
:54:10. > :54:14.investing very heavily in the skills base of those Valleys communities,
:54:15. > :54:18.by targeting some of our apprenticeship programmes at making
:54:19. > :54:20.sure that the skills levels within those communities that have
:54:21. > :54:25.felt this advantage, that have felt disconnected,
:54:26. > :54:27.get the skills and the opportunities What is your view on subsidising
:54:28. > :54:31.tickets to incentivise people to get on board by making tickets
:54:32. > :54:35.as cheap as possible? What we have learned from bus travel
:54:36. > :54:38.actually is that it can We have had the youth
:54:39. > :54:44.concessionary fares, concessionary fares for older people
:54:45. > :54:46.as well, and it is absolutely essential that
:54:47. > :54:48.if we're going to challenge the culture of using private
:54:49. > :54:50.vehicles, using cars, that we do incentivise
:54:51. > :54:52.where possible alternative means So I am open-minded as to the use
:54:53. > :55:01.of concessionary fares to make sure that we get as many people
:55:02. > :55:03.as possible using alternative forms of transport other
:55:04. > :55:06.than private cars. Now, the Institute of Welsh Affairs
:55:07. > :55:11.has been bringing forward ideas on how to improve public policy
:55:12. > :55:15.in Wales for nearly 30 years. It has a new director,
:55:16. > :55:19.Auriol Miller, who no doubt to take the organisation forward,
:55:20. > :55:35.and she joins me now. 30 years. Interestingly, the metro
:55:36. > :55:42.was an idea from Welsh affairs. That is right. People describe us as
:55:43. > :55:45.opening up the tip of the arrow through you can have a conversation
:55:46. > :55:49.which is not always otherwise happening. Spotting an idea, getting
:55:50. > :55:54.experts around the table and bringing people together to talk
:55:55. > :55:59.about something which long-term can make a significant change. One of
:56:00. > :56:03.the problems you might face in Wales generally is that arena in which you
:56:04. > :56:08.have a discussion is lacking. We often say there is not enough
:56:09. > :56:13.discussion in the media, for example, about public policy as you
:56:14. > :56:18.would have in Whitehall. Is that a problem? That is very reason why we
:56:19. > :56:23.were set up almost years ago, we celebrate the anniversary next week.
:56:24. > :56:30.That is space for independent power and debate about the things that
:56:31. > :56:34.really matter to people in Wales. The thing about media is really
:56:35. > :56:40.important, reflecting back, the BBC trust said recently that only 1.4%
:56:41. > :56:46.of money is spent on representing issues of relevance to Wales and
:56:47. > :56:51.Wales back to itself. So we are really trying to both hold the ring
:56:52. > :56:55.for those conversations and enable new and different conversations to
:56:56. > :56:59.happen. How do you have those new conversations? Where will they
:57:00. > :57:03.happen? If people are not watching programmes like this or reading the
:57:04. > :57:08.newspapers, where will they receive that information? Where is the
:57:09. > :57:13.challenge therefore you? It is about ideas and where they come from. That
:57:14. > :57:16.is what I bring to the table, I have almost 20 years of International
:57:17. > :57:20.Development Secretary on. My contacts are global. If we are
:57:21. > :57:24.looking at, we are people doing this really well, where can we learn
:57:25. > :57:29.from? I will get out my phone and think about who I know, for a start.
:57:30. > :57:33.But having worked in Wales for the last three years having run a
:57:34. > :57:40.membership organisation that reaches right across the country, I have
:57:41. > :57:45.contacts there as well. We want to look at things from a different
:57:46. > :57:49.perspective. C we can put new and different combinations of ideas
:57:50. > :57:53.together and try to understand what people's concerns really are. What
:57:54. > :57:58.bothers you most at the moment? What would you most like to change a
:57:59. > :58:05.challenge? What we are really working on is a fantastic starting
:58:06. > :58:07.point, the energy project that we have, looking at an alternative
:58:08. > :58:11.economic strategy for Wales based on renewable energy. We will be
:58:12. > :58:17.publishing a piece on energy demand, in relation to one of our case
:58:18. > :58:20.studies. Over the next years and years and years, Brexit is going to
:58:21. > :58:27.be the big policy, politics, whatever you want to call it, issue.
:58:28. > :58:31.What will you be doing there? Of course it is. Brexit we are already
:58:32. > :58:35.asking our members what it is we should be doing, we need to be
:58:36. > :58:38.rooted from the bottom up. We have 1000 or so members right across the
:58:39. > :58:42.country and I will be looking to grow that membership even more. With
:58:43. > :58:47.Brexit, nobody knows what is going to happen, do they? It is a great
:58:48. > :58:52.big question mark out there. It also cannot get in the way of the
:58:53. > :58:59.delivery of things that needs to happen at the moment. But with the
:59:00. > :59:07.IW aid, we do not look at that, we look much further down the line --
:59:08. > :59:11.IWA. But do you think without any details on Brexit, just a vacuum,
:59:12. > :59:18.the discussion goes over all of the old ground and people become more
:59:19. > :59:21.resolutely in favour of Remain or pro-Brexit, and it does not help
:59:22. > :59:27.things at all? There is a danger of that, but that does not mean that
:59:28. > :59:30.you sit back and do nothing. As an independent think-tank, we say, let
:59:31. > :59:34.us look at things from a number of different sides and try to
:59:35. > :59:38.understand what people's concerns are. We heard Leanne Wood talking
:59:39. > :59:41.about that before, saying that immigration is not really the issue,
:59:42. > :59:45.in her opinion. From our side of things, what are the issues that are
:59:46. > :59:50.going to make a difference? With the Wales bill going through at the
:59:51. > :59:53.moment, that is one thing of concern to us. We do not want a piecemeal
:59:54. > :00:00.devolution settlement any more, and I think that Brexit has a risk
:00:01. > :00:05.cutting right across that. So for as it is about making sure things
:00:06. > :00:12.happen in a way that is sensible and reasonable. Thank you for coming in.
:00:13. > :00:13.Good luck with it and good luck with the celebrations for next year for
:00:14. > :00:14.your 30th. Don't forget you follow
:00:15. > :00:16.all the latest on twitter - Now, Foreign Secretary
:00:17. > :00:31.Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -
:00:32. > :00:34.yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia
:00:35. > :00:36.of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"
:00:37. > :00:38.in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention
:00:39. > :00:41.of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime
:00:42. > :00:44.minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
:00:45. > :00:51.was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,
:00:52. > :00:58.the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply
:00:59. > :01:01.we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,
:01:02. > :01:04.and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over
:01:05. > :01:06.the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing
:01:07. > :01:08.in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people
:01:09. > :01:16.to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way
:01:17. > :01:19.it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left
:01:20. > :01:21.people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia
:01:22. > :01:30.and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been
:01:31. > :01:32.in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,
:01:33. > :01:34.so how's he been received? Our security correspondent
:01:35. > :01:36.Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson
:01:37. > :01:47.was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time
:01:48. > :01:51.since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary
:01:52. > :01:57.visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of
:01:58. > :02:02.it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a
:02:03. > :02:06.tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I
:02:07. > :02:11.have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss
:02:12. > :02:16.about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,
:02:17. > :02:19.I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage
:02:20. > :02:25.limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of
:02:26. > :02:29.smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they
:02:30. > :02:34.are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten
:02:35. > :02:38.and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is
:02:39. > :02:42.in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few
:02:43. > :02:48.minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting
:02:49. > :02:51.the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him
:02:52. > :02:54.according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their
:02:55. > :03:00.security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they
:03:01. > :03:04.are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that
:03:05. > :03:07.has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris
:03:08. > :03:12.Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's
:03:13. > :03:17.supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have
:03:18. > :03:25.had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr
:03:26. > :03:34.Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is
:03:35. > :03:39.in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words
:03:40. > :03:45.Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running
:03:46. > :03:50.up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by
:03:51. > :03:56.some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the
:03:57. > :04:02.gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic
:04:03. > :04:07.mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will
:04:08. > :04:14.reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in
:04:15. > :04:17.building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities
:04:18. > :04:20.that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15
:04:21. > :04:25.hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven
:04:26. > :04:29.warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain
:04:30. > :04:34.withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and
:04:35. > :04:39.off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.
:04:40. > :04:47.In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,
:04:48. > :04:51.but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big
:04:52. > :04:55.emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties
:04:56. > :05:01.with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,
:05:02. > :05:08.I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a
:05:09. > :05:10.large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with
:05:11. > :05:16.Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the
:05:17. > :05:18.conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you
:05:19. > :05:28.very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr
:05:29. > :05:34.Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there
:05:35. > :05:38.has just given us a really important development, or explained what the
:05:39. > :05:42.British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big
:05:43. > :05:46.time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is
:05:47. > :05:51.fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this
:05:52. > :05:55.is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's
:05:56. > :06:00.role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the
:06:01. > :06:05.Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in
:06:06. > :06:10.a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about
:06:11. > :06:14.it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason
:06:15. > :06:20.that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are
:06:21. > :06:24.pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level
:06:25. > :06:28.power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.
:06:29. > :06:35.What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big
:06:36. > :06:39.story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we
:06:40. > :06:44.are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,
:06:45. > :06:49.most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights
:06:50. > :06:55.country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,
:06:56. > :07:03.unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is
:07:04. > :07:07.the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty
:07:08. > :07:12.unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits
:07:13. > :07:16.open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will
:07:17. > :07:21.go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be
:07:22. > :07:24.involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe
:07:25. > :07:29.and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our
:07:30. > :07:35.knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever
:07:36. > :07:39.they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that
:07:40. > :07:44.is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are
:07:45. > :07:48.the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are
:07:49. > :07:53.leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am
:07:54. > :07:58.trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got
:07:59. > :08:03.yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of
:08:04. > :08:07.Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word
:08:08. > :08:12.like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?
:08:13. > :08:16.I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back
:08:17. > :08:19.in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,
:08:20. > :08:24.the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in
:08:25. > :08:30.the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S
:08:31. > :08:35.one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in
:08:36. > :08:42.the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because
:08:43. > :08:46.it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that
:08:47. > :08:53.these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what
:08:54. > :08:58.FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has
:08:59. > :09:04.been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't
:09:05. > :09:14.have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it
:09:15. > :09:18.needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be
:09:19. > :09:22.turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and
:09:23. > :09:27.the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.
:09:28. > :09:30.You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the
:09:31. > :09:34.Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that
:09:35. > :09:40.the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a
:09:41. > :09:42.speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.
:09:43. > :09:55.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:56. > :09:57.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:58. > :10:11.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:12. > :10:17.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:18. > :10:21.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:22. > :10:26.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:27. > :10:30.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:31. > :10:36.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:37. > :10:42.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:43. > :10:46.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:47. > :10:54.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:55. > :10:59.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:11:00. > :11:03.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:04. > :11:09.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:10. > :11:12.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:13. > :11:16.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:17. > :11:21.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:22. > :11:25.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:26. > :11:30.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:31. > :11:38.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:39. > :11:42.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:43. > :11:48.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:49. > :11:53.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:54. > :11:58.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:59. > :12:02.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:03. > :12:06.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:07. > :12:09.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:10. > :12:13.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:14. > :12:17.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:18. > :12:23.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:24. > :12:27.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:28. > :12:33.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:34. > :12:36.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:37. > :12:40.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:41. > :12:45.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:46. > :12:50.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:51. > :12:56.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:57. > :13:00.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:13:01. > :13:04.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:05. > :13:09.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:10. > :13:16.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:17. > :13:22.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:23. > :13:26.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:27. > :13:28.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:29. > :13:33.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:34. > :13:39.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:40. > :13:42.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:43. > :13:45.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:46. > :13:53.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.