15/01/2017

:00:35. > :00:38.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39. > :00:41.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:42. > :00:45.of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:46. > :00:48.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:49. > :00:55.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:56. > :00:57.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:58. > :01:02.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:03. > :01:08.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:09. > :01:14.Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:15. > :01:18.A senior MP tells us Wales shouldn't have a separate policy

:01:19. > :01:20.on immigration, and what's next for our councils?

:01:21. > :01:29.We look ahead to May's elections and beyond.

:01:30. > :01:33.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:34. > :01:35.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:36. > :01:43.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:44. > :01:50.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

:01:51. > :01:53.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

:01:54. > :01:57.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

:01:58. > :02:00.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:02:01. > :02:03.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:04. > :02:07.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:08. > :02:10.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:11. > :02:15.of the single market and customs union.

:02:16. > :02:17.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:18. > :02:20.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:21. > :02:23.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

:02:24. > :02:27.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:28. > :02:30.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

:02:31. > :02:32.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

:02:33. > :02:35.and call for an end to free movement.

:02:36. > :02:37.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

:02:38. > :02:39.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

:02:40. > :02:46.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

:02:47. > :02:52.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:53. > :02:55.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:56. > :03:01.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:03:02. > :03:05.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:06. > :03:09.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:10. > :03:13.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:14. > :03:17.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:18. > :03:22.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:23. > :03:25.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:26. > :03:28.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:29. > :03:33.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:34. > :03:37.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:38. > :03:40.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:41. > :03:46.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:47. > :03:50.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:51. > :03:54.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:55. > :03:59.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:04:00. > :04:03.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:04. > :04:08.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:09. > :04:12.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:13. > :04:15.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

:04:16. > :04:21.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

:04:22. > :04:25.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:26. > :04:29.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

:04:30. > :04:32.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:33. > :04:38.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:39. > :04:44.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:45. > :04:47.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:48. > :04:51.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:52. > :04:56.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:57. > :04:58.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:59. > :05:02.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:03. > :05:06.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:07. > :05:13.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:14. > :05:15.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

:05:16. > :05:18.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:19. > :05:21.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:22. > :05:27.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

:05:28. > :05:32.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:33. > :05:35.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:36. > :05:38.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:39. > :05:42.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:43. > :05:47.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:48. > :05:51.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:52. > :05:54.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

:05:55. > :05:58.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

:05:59. > :06:01.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:02. > :06:05.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:06. > :06:10.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:11. > :06:13.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:14. > :06:16.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:17. > :06:21.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:22. > :06:27.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:28. > :06:31.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:32. > :06:35.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:36. > :06:40.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:41. > :06:44.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:45. > :06:46.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:47. > :06:52.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:53. > :06:56.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:57. > :07:00.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:07:01. > :07:04.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:05. > :07:09.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:10. > :07:14.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:15. > :07:18.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:19. > :07:23.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:24. > :07:26.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:27. > :07:32.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

:07:33. > :07:35.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:36. > :07:40.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:41. > :07:43.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:44. > :07:46.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:47. > :07:53.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:54. > :07:59.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:08:00. > :08:03.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:04. > :08:06.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:07. > :08:09.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:10. > :08:12.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:13. > :08:16.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:17. > :08:20.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:21. > :08:25.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:26. > :08:31.answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:32. > :08:35.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:36. > :08:40.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:41. > :08:45.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:46. > :08:48.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:49. > :08:52.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:53. > :08:58.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:59. > :09:05.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:06. > :09:10.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:11. > :09:13.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:14. > :09:16.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:17. > :09:23.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:24. > :09:27.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:28. > :09:30.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:31. > :09:34.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:35. > :09:37.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:38. > :09:41.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:42. > :09:45.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:46. > :09:48.don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:49. > :09:55.definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:56. > :09:58.is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:59. > :10:00.somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:10:01. > :10:06.hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:07. > :10:09.option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:10. > :10:12.personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:13. > :10:21.We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:22. > :10:24.on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:25. > :10:29.reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:30. > :10:32.possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:33. > :10:36.David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:37. > :10:40.Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:41. > :10:45.are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:46. > :10:51.rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:52. > :10:55.arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:56. > :10:59.encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:11:00. > :11:02.deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:03. > :11:07.service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:08. > :11:10.this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:11. > :11:14.you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:15. > :11:19.years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:20. > :11:23.to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:24. > :11:28.would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:29. > :11:33.What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:34. > :11:36.of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:37. > :11:42.machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:43. > :11:46.pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:47. > :11:50.you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:51. > :11:56.Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:57. > :12:01.European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:12:02. > :12:05.of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:06. > :12:08.these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:09. > :12:12.intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:13. > :12:17.what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:18. > :12:20.Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:21. > :12:23.markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:24. > :12:28.doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:29. > :12:31.it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:32. > :12:33.Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:34. > :12:36.week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:37. > :12:37.enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:38. > :12:39.Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:40. > :12:42.could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:43. > :12:52.If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:53. > :12:55.The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:56. > :12:57.while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:58. > :12:59.a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:13:00. > :13:05.Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:06. > :13:09.It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:10. > :13:14.a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:15. > :13:17.They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:18. > :13:19.It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:20. > :13:29.a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:30. > :13:32.and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:33. > :13:34.which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:35. > :13:37.If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:38. > :13:38.that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:39. > :13:40.like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:41. > :13:47.To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:48. > :13:51.the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:52. > :13:53.publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:54. > :13:57.costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:58. > :14:01.It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:14:02. > :14:05.We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:14:06. > :14:07.This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:08. > :14:13.of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:14. > :14:16.from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:17. > :14:21.It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:22. > :14:27.I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:28. > :14:29.you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:30. > :14:32.I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:33. > :14:35.there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:36. > :14:37.standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:38. > :14:40."Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:41. > :14:42.Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:43. > :14:50.We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:51. > :14:53.for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:54. > :14:56.They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:57. > :14:58.from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:59. > :15:07.a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:15:08. > :15:09.Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:10. > :15:14.Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:15. > :15:17.the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:18. > :15:23.doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:24. > :15:27.The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:28. > :15:29.There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:30. > :15:32.won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:33. > :15:36.are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:37. > :15:38.Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:39. > :15:40.through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:41. > :15:43.Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:44. > :15:46.when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:47. > :15:53.If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:54. > :15:58.we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:59. > :16:00.The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:16:01. > :16:02.since the Government launched its consultation

:16:03. > :16:05.In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:06. > :16:09.And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:10. > :16:14.a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:15. > :16:16.The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:17. > :16:23.One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:24. > :16:25.So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:26. > :16:33.I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:34. > :16:37.What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:38. > :16:41.on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:42. > :16:44.was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:45. > :16:48.regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:49. > :16:53.which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:54. > :16:56.then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:57. > :16:59.case we are going to have to take further measures,

:17:00. > :17:04.The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:05. > :17:06.I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:07. > :17:11.about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:12. > :17:13.to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:14. > :17:16.But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:17. > :17:27.I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:28. > :17:30.Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:31. > :17:34.and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:35. > :17:42.Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:43. > :17:47.that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:48. > :17:51.press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:52. > :17:56.we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:57. > :18:00.into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:18:01. > :18:05.absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:06. > :18:10.like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:11. > :18:11.hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:12. > :18:38.means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:39. > :18:41.many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:42. > :18:43.does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:44. > :18:46.You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:47. > :18:49.People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:50. > :18:52.from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:53. > :18:55.but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:56. > :19:02.money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:19:03. > :19:05.from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:06. > :19:10.the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:11. > :19:14.because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:15. > :19:24.most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:25. > :19:28.the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:29. > :19:35.influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:36. > :19:39.lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:40. > :19:48.historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:49. > :19:52.family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:53. > :19:58.control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:59. > :20:02.the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:03. > :20:08.completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:09. > :20:11.wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:12. > :20:17.because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:18. > :20:22.curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:23. > :20:28.press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:29. > :20:32.Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:33. > :20:40.is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:41. > :20:45.tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:46. > :20:52.advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:53. > :20:57.Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:58. > :21:01.be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:21:02. > :21:05.press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:06. > :21:09.reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:10. > :21:11.selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:12. > :21:17.absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:18. > :21:21.Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:22. > :21:27.remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:28. > :21:33.He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:34. > :21:42.the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:43. > :21:58.do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:59. > :22:05.code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:06. > :22:09.be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:10. > :22:14.against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:15. > :22:19.wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:20. > :22:30.I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:31. > :22:38.wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:39. > :22:42.Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:43. > :22:47.people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:48. > :22:53.but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:54. > :22:57.have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:58. > :23:03.about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:23:04. > :23:09.possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:10. > :23:14.asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:15. > :23:20.the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:21. > :23:26.some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:27. > :23:31.the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:32. > :23:37.newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:38. > :23:41.enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:42. > :23:47.their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:48. > :23:57.they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:58. > :24:07.won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:24:08. > :24:11.fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:12. > :24:15.relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:16. > :24:20.The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:21. > :24:24.against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:25. > :24:30.understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:31. > :24:36.boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:37. > :24:46.Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:47. > :24:55.Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:56. > :24:59.would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:25:00. > :25:05.compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:06. > :25:09.papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:10. > :25:16.they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:17. > :25:20.regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:21. > :25:25.own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:26. > :25:29.one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:30. > :25:33.expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:34. > :25:38.the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:39. > :25:43.either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:44. > :25:55.approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:56. > :26:03.independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:26:04. > :26:08.a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:09. > :26:11.Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:12. > :26:15.to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:16. > :26:18.have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:19. > :26:23.expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:24. > :26:28.which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:29. > :26:32.up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:33. > :26:40.potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:41. > :26:46.the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:47. > :26:53.the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:54. > :26:55.it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:56. > :27:00.journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:27:01. > :27:05.scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:06. > :27:11.that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:12. > :27:15.equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:16. > :27:21.judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:22. > :27:26.saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:27. > :27:31.should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:32. > :27:35.is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:36. > :27:42.what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:43. > :27:46.something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:47. > :27:49.happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:50. > :27:54.circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:55. > :27:58.that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:59. > :28:03.because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:28:04. > :28:07.That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:08. > :28:14.newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:15. > :28:19.Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:20. > :28:22.outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:23. > :28:27.bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:28. > :28:35.the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:36. > :28:40.guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:41. > :28:44.The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:45. > :28:49.somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:50. > :28:53.can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:54. > :28:54.The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:55. > :28:56.has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:57. > :29:00.The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:29:01. > :29:03.open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:04. > :29:06.The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:07. > :29:09.It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:10. > :29:11.had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:12. > :29:18.At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:19. > :29:20.or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:21. > :29:25.On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:26. > :29:29.that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:30. > :29:37.But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:38. > :29:39.He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:40. > :29:44.On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:45. > :29:46.to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:47. > :29:51.paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:52. > :29:55.On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:56. > :30:01.told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:30:02. > :30:05.And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:06. > :30:09.The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:10. > :30:13.was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:14. > :30:16.And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:17. > :30:23.46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:24. > :30:27.Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:28. > :30:30.opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:31. > :30:37.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:38. > :30:40.MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:41. > :30:43.life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:44. > :30:53.Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:54. > :30:58.saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:59. > :31:01.enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:31:02. > :31:04.think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:05. > :31:09.have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:10. > :31:14.still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:15. > :31:19.GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:20. > :31:23.an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:24. > :31:27.is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:28. > :31:31.cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:32. > :31:34.wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:35. > :31:38.forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:39. > :31:48.to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:49. > :31:51.A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:52. > :31:53.play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:54. > :31:56.patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:57. > :32:01.by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:32:02. > :32:05.hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:06. > :32:09.Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:10. > :32:15.shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:16. > :32:18.or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:19. > :32:25.physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:26. > :32:30.most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:31. > :32:33.don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:34. > :32:37.working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:38. > :32:42.profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:43. > :32:50.Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:51. > :32:53.half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:54. > :32:57.of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:58. > :33:02.working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:33:03. > :33:06.not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:07. > :33:09.working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:10. > :33:13.if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:14. > :33:19.the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:20. > :33:22.out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:23. > :33:25.runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:26. > :33:30.contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:31. > :33:34.tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:35. > :33:37.the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:38. > :33:41.this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:42. > :33:46.practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:47. > :33:51.there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:52. > :33:54.are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:55. > :33:58.offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:59. > :34:03.they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:04. > :34:06.saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:07. > :34:11.one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:12. > :34:15.keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:16. > :34:18.should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:19. > :34:25.their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:26. > :34:29.upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:30. > :34:34.highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:35. > :34:39.the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:40. > :34:43.don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:44. > :34:48.enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:49. > :34:53.practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:54. > :34:57.advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:58. > :35:02.need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:35:03. > :35:06.short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:07. > :35:09.associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:10. > :35:13.practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:14. > :35:17.junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:18. > :35:20.this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:21. > :35:27.system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:28. > :35:32.1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:33. > :35:36.with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:37. > :35:40.when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:41. > :35:45.that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:46. > :35:48.where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:49. > :35:53.saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:54. > :35:55.services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:56. > :36:00.follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:36:01. > :36:03.it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:04. > :36:08.station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:09. > :36:15.it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:16. > :36:17.recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:18. > :36:20.haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:21. > :36:24.them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:25. > :36:27.professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:28. > :36:31.what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:32. > :36:36.you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:37. > :36:40.the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:41. > :36:43.patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:44. > :36:48.lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:49. > :36:53.necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:54. > :36:56.up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:57. > :37:00.things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:37:01. > :37:03.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:04. > :37:08.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:09. > :37:12.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:13. > :37:15.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:16. > :37:20.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:21. > :37:24.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:25. > :37:28.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:29. > :37:31.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:32. > :37:33.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:34. > :37:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:36. > :37:38.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:39. > :37:54.minutes: The Week Ahead. Hello and welcome to

:37:55. > :37:55.the Sunday Politics Wales. In just two days' time we expect

:37:56. > :37:59.to find out exactly what Brexit Two political stalwarts tell us

:38:00. > :38:03.what she should say. And the challenges ahead for our

:38:04. > :38:06.councils after the elections in May. But first, as the debate over

:38:07. > :38:08.immigration continues, a senior Welsh MP has told this

:38:09. > :38:10.programme the answer doesn't lie in having

:38:11. > :38:12.a separate policy for Wales. Chris Bryant says the UK Government

:38:13. > :38:15.should instead react to calls for more workers in certain roles

:38:16. > :38:17.on a case-by-case basis. Should Wales be in charge

:38:18. > :38:30.of its own borders with control over which and how many people

:38:31. > :38:33.are allowed to come here Carmarthenshire has attracted

:38:34. > :38:35.thousands of migrant Dozens have been employed

:38:36. > :38:45.by manufacturing firm Amcanu in Burry Port,

:38:46. > :38:47.but the managing director is not The reality of it, I think,

:38:48. > :38:51.is it is an extremely complex issue and I do not think

:38:52. > :38:53.that the Welsh Government have the resource or the knowledge

:38:54. > :38:56.to even cope with such I think there are a number of issues

:38:57. > :39:00.that are being devolved, like taxation, they need to focus

:39:01. > :39:03.on more, so I think the economy of Wales is currently struggling,

:39:04. > :39:06.they need to focus their efforts on supporting businesses to improve

:39:07. > :39:08.the economy without worrying about putting additional resource

:39:09. > :39:14.or burden in businesses' way. The counter-argument, of course,

:39:15. > :39:16.is that ministers in Cardiff are best placed to understand

:39:17. > :39:22.what kind of immigration Wales needs to boost the economy

:39:23. > :39:24.and improve services. A couple of years ago,

:39:25. > :39:28.I came here to New Tredegar to hear about the difficulties they have had

:39:29. > :39:30.in finding and recruiting GPs. It is an issue throughout

:39:31. > :39:33.the Valleys and in rural So would devolving some control over

:39:34. > :39:41.immigration make it easier It would just mean that the system

:39:42. > :39:48.locally is more dynamic, you know? If those powers currently

:39:49. > :39:51.reside with Whitehall, then it takes a long time to achieve

:39:52. > :39:54.any change and change is always And at least if we had power over

:39:55. > :40:04.that, then we could be more responsive and responsiveness

:40:05. > :40:05.is what is required The UK Government and Labour leader

:40:06. > :40:10.Jeremy Corbyn have rejected the idea put forward

:40:11. > :40:14.by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Social Integration and its chair,

:40:15. > :40:19.Labour MP Chuka Umunna. They have said devolving some

:40:20. > :40:23.control over immigration Former Shadow Immigration Minister

:40:24. > :40:30.Chris Bryant is also opposed, but believes the current system must

:40:31. > :40:32.work better for Wales. The UK Government should be awake

:40:33. > :40:37.to the fact that in different parts of the United Kingdom,

:40:38. > :40:39.there are different pressures In particular, in relation

:40:40. > :40:47.to the NHS, if South Wales feels that it has a shortage

:40:48. > :40:52.of orthopaedic surgeons, or, I don't know, mass spectrometers,

:40:53. > :40:57.or whatever, then they should be able to say, "Excuse me,

:40:58. > :41:01.Mr Government Minister, or Mrs Government Minister

:41:02. > :41:03.in Westminster, we need you to allow And clearly, you do not think that

:41:04. > :41:08.has been the case up until now? I am absolutely certain that

:41:09. > :41:10.has not been the case, I think that is because we have

:41:11. > :41:14.an unresponsive government, which is kowtowing to the agenda

:41:15. > :41:17.brought forward by the Mail Inevitably, the idea that Wales

:41:18. > :41:26.and other parts of the UK should have their own immigration policy

:41:27. > :41:28.has raised countless questions The Canadian model is given

:41:29. > :41:39.as an example that the UK could adopt, the provinces can

:41:40. > :41:42.set their own specific labour requirements and Quebec

:41:43. > :41:46.has its own immigration minister. Since the '90s there has been

:41:47. > :41:53.a federalisation of immigration programme and what we see is other

:41:54. > :41:56.provinces are far more proactive now, they do not

:41:57. > :41:58.have the same powers as Quebec, but they are certainly able

:41:59. > :42:01.to identify their own needs and be far more proactive,

:42:02. > :42:03.so within Canada we see that different provinces have

:42:04. > :42:05.different competencies So when we talk about what is

:42:06. > :42:10.workable for Wales, well, it depends really on the type

:42:11. > :42:13.of agreement that is decided upon. For now, the devolution

:42:14. > :42:15.of immigration remains no more than an idea and a talking point

:42:16. > :42:18.and the UK Government says its priority is to build

:42:19. > :42:20.an immigration system that works This week the Prime Minister

:42:21. > :42:33.is expected to outline But what exactly should she say,

:42:34. > :42:37.and how will Wales fit into it? A short while ago I spoke

:42:38. > :42:40.to Jonathan Edwards from Plaid Cymru, who's

:42:41. > :42:42.on the Commons Brexit Committee, and the senior

:42:43. > :42:43.Conservative AM, Nick Ramsay. I began by asking him

:42:44. > :42:46.about his reaction to reports that the Prime Minister may

:42:47. > :42:55.want to leave the single market. Well, from the moment that we had

:42:56. > :42:58.the referendum result and the people of Britain voted to leave

:42:59. > :43:00.the European Union, then The mechanics of how we leave

:43:01. > :43:04.and the exact mechanisms employed have always been up for discussion

:43:05. > :43:07.and those negotiations are ongoing, but at the end of the day

:43:08. > :43:09.we're going to leave, so we look forward to seeing

:43:10. > :43:16.what Theresa May says. But it doesn't necessarily have

:43:17. > :43:19.to mean leaving that single market, there could have been ways around

:43:20. > :43:21.it, whereby maybe you pay some extra money in,

:43:22. > :43:25.you keep some elements of freedom of movement, but she has

:43:26. > :43:27.chosen this hard Brexit, which she will undoubtedly call

:43:28. > :43:30.a clean Brexit, which could be damaging for manufacturing,

:43:31. > :43:31.for example, which is very Well, we don't know

:43:32. > :43:35.what she is going to say yet, but whether you call it hard Brexit,

:43:36. > :43:38.soft Brexit, clean Brexit, whatever that might be, the point

:43:39. > :43:41.is that Brexit is happening. Now, there is an argument

:43:42. > :43:44.that we would be better off staying within the single market in some

:43:45. > :43:47.form or other, but at the end of the day, it is having access

:43:48. > :43:50.to that market that matters. Do you think it would be better

:43:51. > :43:53.to remain in the single market? I think there are advantages

:43:54. > :43:55.of being in the market but there are also disadvantages

:43:56. > :43:58.and these are very complex At the end of the day we need

:43:59. > :44:02.the best deal for Wales, the best deal for the UK and I am

:44:03. > :44:05.confident that the team Jonathan Edwards, picking up

:44:06. > :44:09.on what Nick Ramsay said there, do you think that actually leaving

:44:10. > :44:11.the single market is Well, I think it will be absolutely

:44:12. > :44:16.disastrous for Wales, isn't it? We know that around 200,000 jobs

:44:17. > :44:20.in Wales are sustained by our membership of the single

:44:21. > :44:22.market, there was nothing in the referendum result

:44:23. > :44:25.which suggested that we had to leave We have an export-led economy

:44:26. > :44:29.in Wales, we have an export surplus. Now, obviously, if you leave your

:44:30. > :44:33.biggest trading market, the bloc that we are a part

:44:34. > :44:36.of as part of the European Union, that is going to have a huge impact

:44:37. > :44:40.on jobs and wages in Wales, and the reality about what we will

:44:41. > :44:45.hear from her on Tuesday is going to be the greatest

:44:46. > :44:47.job-killing act in Welsh economic history, probably

:44:48. > :44:50.in British economic history, and in that regard, my colleagues

:44:51. > :44:53.and I will be opposing this extreme Tory government every step

:44:54. > :45:03.of the way. But if you accept that a large part

:45:04. > :45:06.of why people voted to leave the European Union was immigration,

:45:07. > :45:09.the idea of taking back control of borders, then really,

:45:10. > :45:11.if you want to have total control over your borders, it seems to be

:45:12. > :45:14.the logical step that you have But the two things are so closely

:45:15. > :45:18.intertwined in terms Well, I think the great mistake

:45:19. > :45:22.of this referendum, of course... If you compare it to the Scottish

:45:23. > :45:24.Independence Referendum, for instance, when that referendum

:45:25. > :45:27.was fought, the Scottish Government - which was proposing a Yes

:45:28. > :45:29.vote to leave the UK - produced a 600-page white

:45:30. > :45:31.paper outlining exactly There is nothing on that ballot

:45:32. > :45:37.paper telling us what Brexit meant, it has been made up as we go along,

:45:38. > :45:47.following the referendum result. The extremists in the Conservative

:45:48. > :45:50.Party and in Ukip are defining the result to suit their own narrow

:45:51. > :45:52.and dangerous extreme But if you want controls on borders,

:45:53. > :46:08.you must leave the single market. But that is not actually

:46:09. > :46:11.the case, is it? Norway is a member of the single

:46:12. > :46:17.market and their freedom of movement rules relate to workers

:46:18. > :46:19.and labour and permits, so there are ways of staying

:46:20. > :46:21.in the single market But as I mentioned, the last time

:46:22. > :46:30.I was on this programme the UK Government decided as a priority it

:46:31. > :46:33.wanted to keep the Common Travel Area between the Irish Republic

:46:34. > :46:35.and the British state. Well, the Irish Republic is a Member

:46:36. > :46:38.of the European Parliament, so how can you have controls

:46:39. > :46:40.over your border if there is complete freedom of movement

:46:41. > :46:43.between the Republic of Ireland and the British state,

:46:44. > :46:45.be that only on the island of Ireland between the six counties

:46:46. > :46:48.and the Republic or between the Nick Ramsey, Jonathan Edwards

:46:49. > :46:56.telling us this is the largest job-killing scheme in Wales

:46:57. > :46:58.and in British history, is there a danger that there is too

:46:59. > :47:01.much emphasis on benefit of the UK economy and not enough

:47:02. > :47:03.emphasis as to what happens Of course, there is

:47:04. > :47:07.a danger on both sides. I would disagree with this issue

:47:08. > :47:10.that this is about extremism within the Conservative Party or any

:47:11. > :47:12.party, come to that. This is about enacting the wills

:47:13. > :47:15.of the British people I think actually staying

:47:16. > :47:18.within the single market, if that was possible,

:47:19. > :47:19.would clearly be The question is, are we able to do

:47:20. > :47:33.that and honour the commitment made If that is not possible,

:47:34. > :47:36.what matters is how I guess the problem,

:47:37. > :47:39.as Jonathan Edwards said there, was that there was not a clear

:47:40. > :47:42.message on the ballot paper as to what it meant and therefore,

:47:43. > :47:45.there is interpretation now happening after the referendum

:47:46. > :47:47.as to what it meant, that is the danger in terms

:47:48. > :47:50.of leaving the single market, who knows what the British

:47:51. > :47:52.people are voting for? It is and on the face of it,

:47:53. > :47:55.if an appropriate agreement can be achieved, then remaining a member

:47:56. > :47:57.or an associate member of the market area in some form

:47:58. > :48:00.would be beneficial. Jonathan mentioned Norway,

:48:01. > :48:02.the Prime Minister has already said we will not have an off-the-shelf

:48:03. > :48:06.model here, this is going to be something that is bespoke

:48:07. > :48:09.and suited to Britain. Hopefully, we can stay very closely

:48:10. > :48:13.entwined within that market but at the end of the day we must

:48:14. > :48:17.achieve access and we must achieve There are dangers on either side,

:48:18. > :48:21.this is a complex negotiation process but I am confident

:48:22. > :48:23.we are on the right track. Jonathan Edwards, you are a member

:48:24. > :48:26.of the Commons Brexit Committee, there was a report from

:48:27. > :48:28.the committee yesterday saying that MPs should have a say on this

:48:29. > :48:31.and that Theresa May should But you have said that MPs

:48:32. > :48:36.are likely to refuse your request Is there not a danger of letting

:48:37. > :48:54.everyone have their say and actually diluting what Theresa May

:48:55. > :48:57.is trying to achieve here? Well, I have had some wins

:48:58. > :49:04.on the committee and the major win I had was that everybody

:49:05. > :49:06.on the committee agreed that the government finally had

:49:07. > :49:09.to come clean about where they stood on membership of the single market

:49:10. > :49:12.and the customs union. It looks as if the Prime Minister

:49:13. > :49:15.has responded to that within one day In terms of the endorsement,

:49:16. > :49:19.I moved an amendment saying that the final deal should be

:49:20. > :49:28.endorsed by the four That means that the remaining 27

:49:29. > :49:32.Members of the European Parliament will each have a veto. This could

:49:33. > :49:40.take ten years to negotiate as we have seen in that deal done with

:49:41. > :49:48.Canada. It seems very strange to me in that scenario that this new Great

:49:49. > :49:51.Britain and eight post-Brexit environment that the devolved

:49:52. > :49:57.institutions of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will not have a

:49:58. > :50:03.formal role to play in the negotiating process. It is OK to say

:50:04. > :50:06.that they have listened to our views, but... Sorry, time is tight,

:50:07. > :50:12.I would like to put that point to get back. Should the assembly have a

:50:13. > :50:16.view or a vote on the final decision? I can fully understand

:50:17. > :50:21.Plaid Cymru making this type of cavalry charge. But Wales is not

:50:22. > :50:29.that part of Belgium that he referenced. The First Minister has

:50:30. > :50:32.been involved and should be involved and Jonathan is correct to say that

:50:33. > :50:35.Wales should be involved in this process but at the end of the day

:50:36. > :50:39.the duty will take a decision whether be brimming. That is the

:50:40. > :50:44.situation at the moment, there was a UK referendum and the UK will remain

:50:45. > :50:46.or leave as the government decides. Thank you both very much for your

:50:47. > :50:52.time this morning. Now there was a little sadness,

:50:53. > :50:55.if not much surprise on Friday, when Lord Carlile announced

:50:56. > :50:57.he was leaving the Lib He's a former leader of the party

:50:58. > :51:01.in Wales, of course, but has, in recent years,

:51:02. > :51:03.been at odds with it, Lord Carlile hasn't been available

:51:04. > :51:07.for comment, but many had been I think the reaction will be mixed,

:51:08. > :51:13.some people in the party, particularly younger people,

:51:14. > :51:15.we'll be saying good riddance and have called for him

:51:16. > :51:17.to go, to be honest. But within Wales, in particular

:51:18. > :51:22.within Montgomeryshire, his former constituency,

:51:23. > :51:24.and amongst the leadership of the Welsh Liberal Democrats,

:51:25. > :51:27.I think there will be real sadness because Lord Carlile has given

:51:28. > :51:30.so much over the years and has always been somebody that could be

:51:31. > :51:38.turned to for advice and support. In a year where little

:51:39. > :51:40.is certain in politics, one thing we know will happen

:51:41. > :51:43.are the local elections in May. As well as being a test

:51:44. > :51:45.of the parties' popularity, Joining me now to talk about those

:51:46. > :51:49.issues are the Leader of Ceredigion Council,

:51:50. > :51:51.Ellen ap Gwynn, who's in Aberystwyth, and the Newport

:51:52. > :52:03.leader, Debbie Wilcox. To start with you, Ellen ap Gwynn,

:52:04. > :52:10.we have been hearing so much over the last five or six years about

:52:11. > :52:14.cuts to council budgets, is there a sense that whoever is in power in

:52:15. > :52:19.whichever council or whatever party, you are all going to have very tough

:52:20. > :52:25.decisions to make? We already have had to do that. Ceredigion has lost

:52:26. > :52:31.?34 million of our revenue budget over the period that I have been a

:52:32. > :52:34.leader, that is 25% of our budget revenue. It has been a huge

:52:35. > :52:42.challenge over the past few years and that will not stop by all

:52:43. > :52:45.accounts. Debbie Wilcox, we were talking to Thomas from Welsh local

:52:46. > :52:50.government last week who was telling us who would want to be a

:52:51. > :52:53.councillor? There will not be a lot of wiggle room for any of the main

:52:54. > :52:59.parties in terms of what you can achieve over the next five years, I

:53:00. > :53:02.would guess. That is correct. We have lost ?48 million in the Newport

:53:03. > :53:06.in that four-year period. But what we have got now in Newport is the

:53:07. > :53:11.same budget we had when I first became elected in 2004, so 13 years

:53:12. > :53:15.later we are now dealing with those same figures. Let us not forget that

:53:16. > :53:20.the Welsh Government are doing everything they can to ensure that

:53:21. > :53:25.the settlements are appropriate and distributed across Wales, but they

:53:26. > :53:29.can only do what they can with what they are sent from Westminster and

:53:30. > :53:33.that is the key issue, we are guardians of our services but we can

:53:34. > :53:41.only deal with the money that we are directly sent from Westminster. You

:53:42. > :53:45.are still trying to address the same problems and services with less

:53:46. > :53:51.money, what as portable parties can you do to try to give that little

:53:52. > :53:55.extra offer to the borders? I believe the key is in the ward local

:53:56. > :53:58.and we have clearly understood that we want to keep our services as

:53:59. > :54:02.local as possible but within that we are of course looking at regional

:54:03. > :54:07.working and there are two major footprints at work for our council

:54:08. > :54:10.and in recent weeks # South-east of Wales in terms of

:54:11. > :54:13.the Cardiff City region deal and we also look at the health board

:54:14. > :54:16.footprint. So we are going to have to do things differently, we are

:54:17. > :54:20.going to have to make better use of resources and money and, you know,

:54:21. > :54:26.as it worked for the Welsh football team, together, stronger. Well done!

:54:27. > :54:30.One of the other things the local Welsh Government Association has

:54:31. > :54:32.said is that the big elephant in the in the room, the service that will

:54:33. > :54:37.double in cost over the next decade is social care and that's not enough

:54:38. > :54:41.is being done by councils to address the very real challenges you face

:54:42. > :54:45.there. What must be done there, do you think, from the councils? I

:54:46. > :54:50.would not say that we're not doing anything, we are actually doing a

:54:51. > :54:56.lot, we are having to redesign our services to make sure that those

:54:57. > :55:00.that really need that help really do get it. It is not an easy one, as

:55:01. > :55:03.Debbie has already said, according to the social services and

:55:04. > :55:08.well-being acted that came into force last April, we must work

:55:09. > :55:14.together now on the footprints of the health board, and that means

:55:15. > :55:18.moving towards closer cooperation with the health board and that

:55:19. > :55:22.hopefully we will be able to support each other because without the

:55:23. > :55:27.social care in each of unity, the hospitals will be clogged up. So are

:55:28. > :55:33.you confident, despite the increase of the mountain the services and not

:55:34. > :55:37.a corresponding increase in funding that you can actually manage with

:55:38. > :55:42.those services? It will be very, very difficult. We are having to cut

:55:43. > :55:46.some things and they look at how we offer services. I would tell you

:55:47. > :55:51.that is one of the areas, one of the priority areas for extra funding,

:55:52. > :55:54.but as Debbie has already said, unless that funding comes down from

:55:55. > :56:05.the Treasury, unless they increase the social care fund in Westminster,

:56:06. > :56:11.the elements that comes down to Wales is what it is, that means that

:56:12. > :56:17.the Welsh Government is hamstrung in trying to help others. But the

:56:18. > :56:20.amount of share for rural areas this coming year has improved compared to

:56:21. > :56:28.what it has been for the past three years, where we have been losing

:56:29. > :56:31.three, four, 5%... You are talking about the demands, the difficulties

:56:32. > :56:36.in terms of the funding settlement that you get and those increases in

:56:37. > :56:40.social care, how confident are you that you can manage all of the

:56:41. > :56:47.additional burdens of social care without having to ensure that other

:56:48. > :56:50.areas do not suffer? I think the key is the boards statutory and an

:56:51. > :56:56.statutory. We have a statutory obligation to provide social care to

:56:57. > :57:01.our citizens and the gaps in those budgets must be felt and met by the

:57:02. > :57:06.reduction in non-statutory services. Does that mean that even though we

:57:07. > :57:09.have seen a restriction on libraries and other non-statutory elements,

:57:10. > :57:14.they will actually be squeezed harder? I try to explain on the

:57:15. > :57:19.doorstep is simple as this. For years ago you had ?100 a week to

:57:20. > :57:23.spend, now you have 60. It is simple economic. I am sure my old A-level

:57:24. > :57:27.economic teacher would be proud of me for that some plus the cancer!

:57:28. > :57:32.But that is the case and councils must look at what they provide and

:57:33. > :57:36.how they provide in future. On one hand the public education has

:57:37. > :57:40.greatly risen and why not? On the other hand, our budgets have

:57:41. > :57:42.dramatically fallen, so the expectation for councils to do

:57:43. > :57:46.everything in the same way in the future will not be there. There was

:57:47. > :57:50.an awful lot of talk at this time last year about councils being

:57:51. > :57:55.forced to emerge by the Welsh Government and those plans have now

:57:56. > :57:59.been dropped, only about eight or nine councils instead of about 22.

:58:00. > :58:01.To what extent of the next five years do you think we will see

:58:02. > :58:05.councils merging because they will have to do is out of necessity and

:58:06. > :58:10.accepting that the financial situation is as it is? The first

:58:11. > :58:14.thing I thought when I went to the coordinating committee and I met

:58:15. > :58:17.Ellen ap Gwynn for the first time was how civilised it was as a

:58:18. > :58:21.political entity in terms of the readers of Wales and how well

:58:22. > :58:25.everyone cooperated and did grown-up politics. That sounds of consensus

:58:26. > :58:29.that maybe Welsh Government think again about how local government

:58:30. > :58:33.should operate was very, very clear. We must cooperate and do things

:58:34. > :58:38.differently, but do you know what? We also need a base budget and that

:58:39. > :58:42.base budget that we have to set legally, you know, we cannot go over

:58:43. > :58:47.into the red as health authorities can. So we need that sense of

:58:48. > :58:51.co-operation. I do not think it is a case of councils merging, I

:58:52. > :58:57.genuinely think it is a case of that regional working and working well

:58:58. > :59:01.together. Ellen ap Gwynn, where do you see the number of councils in

:59:02. > :59:06.five years' time? Others have said they think there will be mergers

:59:07. > :59:12.because of the pressures of social care and everything else. We are

:59:13. > :59:15.working closely together already. We work on six county footprints for

:59:16. > :59:20.the education improvement services at this point, we are working on the

:59:21. > :59:23.county footprints in terms of social care and health is concerned and

:59:24. > :59:30.both the relevant ministers have already announced that the economic

:59:31. > :59:36.developments, strategic transport and regional planning will be on

:59:37. > :59:40.four different regional footprints. Growing Mid Wales being the relevant

:59:41. > :59:47.one for us here. At last we have got a focus on the rural economy because

:59:48. > :59:51.previously there was too much, in my view, although I am sure it is

:59:52. > :59:55.needed, on the city regions and no focus at all on the rural economy.

:59:56. > :00:00.So I am very pleased that they have taken that on board. That will be a

:00:01. > :00:05.huge area of work for us going forward because we were hearing

:00:06. > :00:11.about Brexit earlier, Ceredigion is going to lose about ?55 million out

:00:12. > :00:15.of the economy annually if that money is not replaced from the

:00:16. > :00:20.Treasury in London. Their rear. Very quickly, temp tee-mac, in terms of

:00:21. > :00:27.what you think about the toughness of those choices, how many cars you

:00:28. > :00:32.think will be the budgets across Wales? -- Debbie. I could not put a

:00:33. > :00:33.figure on it but I think it will be significant. Thank you both very

:00:34. > :00:34.much this morning. Keep up with all the latest

:00:35. > :00:37.on our twitter feed - we're @walespolitics,

:00:38. > :00:39.but for now, it's time Diolch am wylio -

:00:40. > :00:43.thanks for watching. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:44. > :00:51.would tone things down after the American election

:00:52. > :01:01.campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:01:02. > :01:05.President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:06. > :01:07.on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:08. > :01:09.inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:10. > :01:13.to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:14. > :01:16.at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:17. > :01:19.in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:20. > :01:21.obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:22. > :01:37.news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:38. > :01:42.you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:43. > :01:44.a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:45. > :01:50.which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:51. > :01:54.going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:55. > :01:57.believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:58. > :02:00.a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:02:01. > :02:03.guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:04. > :02:11.returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:12. > :02:25.public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:26. > :02:28.last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:29. > :02:32.hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:33. > :02:35.will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:36. > :02:40.from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:41. > :02:43.the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:44. > :02:47.ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:48. > :02:51.has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:52. > :02:55.committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:56. > :02:59.incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:03:00. > :03:02.spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:03:03. > :03:07.him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:08. > :03:11.following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:12. > :03:16.all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:17. > :03:20.Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:21. > :03:24.getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:25. > :03:28.marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:29. > :03:32.He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:33. > :03:43.cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:44. > :03:48.weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:49. > :03:52.cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:53. > :03:55.he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:56. > :04:01.look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:04:02. > :04:04.point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:05. > :04:07.negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:08. > :04:11.him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:12. > :04:17.pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:18. > :04:23.differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:24. > :04:28.the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:29. > :04:31.try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:32. > :04:38.the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:39. > :04:44.are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:45. > :04:47.that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:48. > :04:51.this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:52. > :04:55.fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:56. > :04:58.I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:59. > :05:04.media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:05:05. > :05:12.told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:13. > :05:16.in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:17. > :05:19.who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:20. > :05:25.seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:26. > :05:28.that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:29. > :05:32.independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:33. > :05:36.too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:37. > :05:41.3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:42. > :05:46.now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:47. > :05:50.three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:51. > :05:54.We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:55. > :05:56.appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:57. > :06:00.billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:06:01. > :06:04.simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:06:05. > :06:07.thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:08. > :06:12.day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:13. > :06:19.to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:20. > :06:23.hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:24. > :06:30.really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:31. > :06:33.consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:34. > :06:37.about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:38. > :06:40.doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:41. > :06:44.to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:45. > :06:47.something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:48. > :06:51.won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:52. > :06:56.magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:57. > :06:59.he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:07:00. > :07:02.liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:07:03. > :07:06.my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:07. > :07:10.LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:11. > :07:14.system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:15. > :07:19.is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:20. > :07:22.balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:23. > :07:26.system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:27. > :07:32.way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:33. > :07:38.to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:39. > :07:44.him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:45. > :07:48.disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:49. > :07:52.and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:53. > :07:57.feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:58. > :08:00.those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:08:01. > :08:03.you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:04. > :08:06.offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:07. > :08:14.may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:15. > :08:17.parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:18. > :08:19.country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:20. > :08:25.free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:26. > :08:29.as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:30. > :08:33.the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:34. > :08:37.British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:38. > :08:41.loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:42. > :08:45.very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:46. > :08:51.Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:52. > :08:56.me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:57. > :08:59.period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:09:00. > :09:04.game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:09:05. > :09:10.whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:11. > :09:14.from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:15. > :09:17.Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:18. > :09:19.If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:20. > :09:21.Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:22. > :09:25.Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:26. > :09:29.as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:30. > :09:31.It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:32. > :09:34.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:35. > :09:36.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:37. > :09:38.It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:39. > :09:43.Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:44. > :09:46.you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:47. > :09:49.I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:50. > :09:52.let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:53. > :09:54.are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:55. > :09:55.levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:56. > :09:58.where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:59. > :10:00.frightened of going to university because of the debts

:10:01. > :10:04.they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:05. > :10:10.Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:11. > :10:13.the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:14. > :10:16.they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:17. > :10:22.to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:23. > :10:26.their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:27. > :10:30.has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:31. > :10:33.they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:34. > :10:37.tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:38. > :10:40.Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:41. > :10:47.summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:48. > :10:51.the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:52. > :10:57.we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:58. > :11:02.as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:11:03. > :11:07.they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:08. > :11:10.mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:11. > :11:15.one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:16. > :11:19.sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:20. > :11:23.happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:24. > :11:26.a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:27. > :11:34.Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:35. > :11:36.because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:37. > :11:39.literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:40. > :11:42.you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:43. > :11:45.steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:46. > :11:48.feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:49. > :11:53.by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:54. > :11:57.and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:58. > :12:03.thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:12:04. > :12:11.to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:12. > :12:13.as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:14. > :12:16.afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:17. > :12:22.what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:23. > :12:24.elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:25. > :12:28.generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:29. > :12:32.out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:33. > :12:35.very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:36. > :12:39.would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:40. > :12:44.ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:45. > :12:49.Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:50. > :12:53.talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:54. > :12:58.laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:59. > :13:02.nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:13:03. > :13:06.has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:07. > :13:08.could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:09. > :13:11.I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:12. > :13:13.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.