:00:34. > :00:36.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:37. > :00:40.Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to visit US
:00:41. > :00:43.President Donald Trump this week - she's promised to hold "very
:00:44. > :00:45.frank" conversations with the new and controversial
:00:46. > :00:52.Speaking of the 45th President of America,
:00:53. > :00:56.we'll be looking at what the Trump presidency could hold
:00:57. > :01:02.in store for Britain and the rest of the world.
:01:03. > :01:05.And with the Supreme Court expected to say that Parliament should
:01:06. > :01:08.have a vote before the Brexit process begins, we'll ask
:01:09. > :01:15.Theresa May has had her say. what Labour will do next.
:01:16. > :01:18.Next up, the Welsh government's wish-list on Brexit.
:01:19. > :01:32.And who'll get the tax when houses are sold along the Welsh border?
:01:33. > :01:35.And to talk about all of that and more, I'm joined by three
:01:36. > :01:38.journalists who, in an era of so-called fake news, can be
:01:39. > :01:41.relied upon for their accuracy, their impartiality -
:01:42. > :01:44.and their willingness to come to the studio
:01:45. > :01:51.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer
:01:52. > :01:57.and Tom Newton Dunn, and during the programme they'll be
:01:58. > :02:01.tweeting as often as the 45th President of the USA in the middle
:02:02. > :02:11.So - the Prime Minister has been appearing on the BBC this morning.
:02:12. > :02:13.She was mostly talking about Donald Trump and Brexit,
:02:14. > :02:16.but she was also asked about a story on the front of this
:02:17. > :02:20.It's reported that an unarmed Trident missile test fired
:02:21. > :02:26.from the submarine HMS Vengeance near the Florida coast in June
:02:27. > :02:35.The paper says the incident took place weeks before a crucial Commons
:02:36. > :02:39.Well, let's have listen to Theresa May talking
:02:40. > :02:44.The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons
:02:45. > :02:48.It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,
:02:49. > :02:51.whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.
:02:52. > :02:54.That's what we were talking about in the House of Commons.
:02:55. > :02:56.That's what the House of Commons voted for.
:02:57. > :03:02.He doesn't want to defend our country with an independent
:03:03. > :03:09.There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,
:03:10. > :03:17.What we were talking about in that debate that took place...
:03:18. > :03:25.I'm not going to get an answer to this.
:03:26. > :03:31.Tom, it was clear this was going to come up this morning. It is on the
:03:32. > :03:36.front page of the Sunday Times. It would seem to me the Prime Minister
:03:37. > :03:42.wasn't properly briefed on how to reply. I think she probably was, but
:03:43. > :03:45.the Prime Minister we now have doesn't necessarily answer all
:03:46. > :03:53.questions in the straightest way. She didn't answer that one and all.
:03:54. > :04:00.Unlike previous ones? She made it quite clear she was briefed. You
:04:01. > :04:05.read between the Theresa May lines. By simply not answering Andrew Marr
:04:06. > :04:09.four times, it is obvious she knew, and that she knew before she went
:04:10. > :04:15.into the House of Commons and urged everyone to renew the ?40 billion
:04:16. > :04:18.replacement programme. Of course it is an embarrassment, but does it
:04:19. > :04:25.have political legs? I don't think so. She didn't mislead the Commons.
:04:26. > :04:30.If she wanted to close it down, the answer should have been, these are
:04:31. > :04:33.matters of national security. There's nothing more important in
:04:34. > :04:40.that than our nuclear deterrent. I'm not prepared to talk about testing.
:04:41. > :04:45.End of. But she didn't. Maybe you should be briefing her. That's a
:04:46. > :04:51.good answer. She is an interesting interviewee. She shows it when she
:04:52. > :04:55.is nervous. She was transparently uneasy answering those questions,
:04:56. > :05:00.and the fact she didn't answer it definitively suggests she did know
:05:01. > :05:04.and didn't want to say it, and she answered awkwardly. But how wider
:05:05. > :05:09.point, that the House of Commons voted for the renewal of Trident,
:05:10. > :05:14.suggests to me that in the broader sweep of things, this will not run,
:05:15. > :05:21.because if there was another vote, I would suggest she'd win it again.
:05:22. > :05:26.But it is an embarrassment and she handled it with a transparent
:05:27. > :05:31.awkwardness. She said that the tests go on all the time, but not of the
:05:32. > :05:35.missiles. Does it not show that when the Prime Minister leaves her
:05:36. > :05:40.comfort zone of Home Office affairs or related matters, she often
:05:41. > :05:47.struggles. We've seen it under questioning from Mr Corbyn even, and
:05:48. > :05:51.we saw it again today. Absolutely. Tests of various aspects of the
:05:52. > :05:56.missiles go on all the time, but there's only been five since 2000.
:05:57. > :06:00.What you described wouldn't have worked, because in previous tests
:06:01. > :06:08.they have always been very public about it. Look how well our missiles
:06:09. > :06:16.work! She may not have misled Parliament, but she may not have
:06:17. > :06:21.known about it. If she didn't know, does Michael Fallon still have a job
:06:22. > :06:27.on Monday? Should Parliament know about a test that doesn't work? Some
:06:28. > :06:33.would say absolutely not. Our deterrent is there to deter people
:06:34. > :06:38.from attacking us. If they know that we are hitting the United States by
:06:39. > :06:43.mistake rather than the Atlantic Ocean, then... There is such a thing
:06:44. > :06:49.as national security, and telling all the bad guys about where we are
:06:50. > :06:53.going wrong may not be a good idea. It was her first statement as Prime
:06:54. > :06:59.Minister to put her case for renewal, to have the vote on
:07:00. > :07:02.Trident, and in that context, it is significant not to say anything. If
:07:03. > :07:06.anyone knows where the missile landed, give us a call!
:07:07. > :07:08.So Donald Trump's inauguration day closed with him dancing
:07:09. > :07:11.to Frank Sinatra's My Way, and whatever your view on the 45th
:07:12. > :07:14.President of the United States he certainly did do it his way.
:07:15. > :07:16.Not for him the idealistic call for national unity -
:07:17. > :07:18.instead he used Friday's inaugural address to launch a blistering
:07:19. > :07:22.attack on the dark state of the nation and the political
:07:23. > :07:26.class, and to promise to take his uncompromising approach
:07:27. > :07:30.from the campaign trail to the White House.
:07:31. > :07:34.Here's Adam Fleming, with a reminder of how
:07:35. > :07:42.First, dropping by for a cup of tea and a slightly awkward exchange
:07:43. > :07:51.Then, friends, foes and predecessors watched
:07:52. > :07:58.I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear...
:07:59. > :08:03.The crowds seemed smaller than previous inaugurations,
:08:04. > :08:07.the speech tougher then any previous incoming president.
:08:08. > :08:14.From this day forth, it's going to be only America first.
:08:15. > :08:39.In the meantime, there were sporadic protests in Washington, DC.
:08:40. > :08:43.Opponents made their voices heard around the world too.
:08:44. > :08:45.The President, who'd criticised the work of
:08:46. > :08:50.the intelligence agencies, fitted in a visit to the CIA.
:08:51. > :08:53.There is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community
:08:54. > :09:05.And, back at the office, in the dark, a signature signalled
:09:06. > :09:11.the end of the Obama era and the dawn of Trump.
:09:12. > :09:17.So, as you heard there, President Trump used his
:09:18. > :09:20.inauguration to repeat his campaign promise to put "America first"
:09:21. > :09:23.in all his decisions, and offered some hints of what to expect
:09:24. > :09:39.He talked of in America in carnage, to be rebuilt by American hands and
:09:40. > :09:43.American Labour. President Trump has already started to dismantle key
:09:44. > :09:48.parts of the Obama Legacy, including the unwinding of the affordable care
:09:49. > :09:53.act, and the siding of the climate action plan to tackle global
:09:54. > :09:58.warning. Little to say about foreign policy, but promised to eradicate
:09:59. > :10:03.Islamic terrorism from the face of the Earth, insisting he would
:10:04. > :10:08.restore the US military to unquestioning dominance. He also
:10:09. > :10:12.said the US would develop a state missile defence system to deal with
:10:13. > :10:18.threats he sees from Iran and North Korea. In a statement that painted a
:10:19. > :10:23.bleak picture of the country he now runs, he said his would be a law and
:10:24. > :10:28.order Administration, and he would keep the innocents safe by building
:10:29. > :10:34.the border war with Mexico. One thing he didn't mention, for the
:10:35. > :10:36.first time ever, there is a Eurosceptic in the oval office, who
:10:37. > :10:39.is also an enthusiast for Brexit. We're joined now by Ted Malloch -
:10:40. > :10:43.he's a Trump supporter who's been tipped as the president's
:10:44. > :10:45.choice for US ambassador to the EU, and he's
:10:46. > :10:47.just flown back from Washington. And by James Rubin -
:10:48. > :10:58.he's a democrat who served Let's start with that last point I
:10:59. > :11:05.made in the voice over there. We now have a Eurosceptic in the oval
:11:06. > :11:08.office. He is pro-Brexit and not keen on further European Union
:11:09. > :11:14.integration. What are the implications of that? First of all,
:11:15. > :11:20.a renewal of the US- UK special relationship. You see the Prime
:11:21. > :11:24.Minister already going to build and rebuild this relationship. Already,
:11:25. > :11:29.the bust of Winston Churchill is back in the oval office.
:11:30. > :11:33.Interestingly, Martin Luther King's bust is also there, so there is an
:11:34. > :11:40.act of unity in that first movement of dusts. Donald Trump will be
:11:41. > :11:50.oriented between bilateral relationships and not multilateral
:11:51. > :11:56.or supernatural. Supranational full. What are the implications of someone
:11:57. > :12:02.in the White House now not believing in it? I think we are present in the
:12:03. > :12:06.unravelling of America's leadership of the West. There is now a thing
:12:07. > :12:14.called the west that America has led since the end of World War II,
:12:15. > :12:22.creating supranational - we just heard supernatural! These
:12:23. > :12:27.institutions were created. With American leadership, the world was
:12:28. > :12:31.at peace in Europe, and the world grew increasingly democratic and
:12:32. > :12:36.prosperous. Wars were averted that could be extremely costly. When
:12:37. > :12:40.something works in diplomacy, you don't really understand what the
:12:41. > :12:44.consequences could have been. I think we've got complacent. The new
:12:45. > :12:50.president is taking advantage of that. It is a terrible tragedy that
:12:51. > :12:55.so many in the West take for granted the successful leadership and
:12:56. > :13:03.institutions we have built. You could argue, as James Rubin has
:13:04. > :13:08.argued in some articles, that... Will Mr Trump's America be more
:13:09. > :13:15.involved in the world than the Obama won? Or will it continue the process
:13:16. > :13:22.with running shoes on that began with Mr Obama? President Obama
:13:23. > :13:27.stepped back from American leadership. He withdrew from the
:13:28. > :13:31.world. He had a horrendous eight years in office, and American powers
:13:32. > :13:37.have diminished everywhere in the world, not just in Europe. That
:13:38. > :13:41.power will reassert. The focus will be on America first, but there are
:13:42. > :13:47.foreign interests around the world... How does it reassert itself
:13:48. > :13:51.around the world? I think the institutions will be recreated. Some
:13:52. > :13:57.may be taken down. There could be some new ones. I think Nato itself,
:13:58. > :14:01.and certainly the Defence Secretary will have discussions with Donald
:14:02. > :14:05.Trump about how Nato can be reshaped, and maybe there will be
:14:06. > :14:10.more burden sharing. That is an important thing for him. You are
:14:11. > :14:15.tipped to be the US ambassador to Brussels, to the EU, and we are
:14:16. > :14:19.still waiting to hear if that will happen. Is it true to say that Mr
:14:20. > :14:29.Trump does not believe in EU integration? I think you made that
:14:30. > :14:37.clear in the speech. He talked about supranational. He does not believe
:14:38. > :14:41.in those kinds of organisations. He is investing himself in bilateral
:14:42. > :14:46.relationships, the first of which will be with the UK. So we have a
:14:47. > :14:53.president who does not believe in EU integration and has been highly
:14:54. > :14:57.critical of Nato. Do the people he has appointed to defend, Secretary
:14:58. > :15:02.of State, national security, do you think that will temper this
:15:03. > :15:09.anti-NATO wretched? Will he come round to a more pro-NATO situation?
:15:10. > :15:15.I think those of us who care about America's situation in the world
:15:16. > :15:19.will come in to miss President Obama a lot. I think the Secretary of
:15:20. > :15:25.State and the faculty of defence will limit the damage and will urge
:15:26. > :15:29.him not to take formal steps to unravel this most powerful and most
:15:30. > :15:36.successful alliance in history, the Nato alliance. But the damage is
:15:37. > :15:40.already being done. When you are the leader of the West, leadership means
:15:41. > :15:46.you are persuading, encouraging, bolstering your leadership and these
:15:47. > :15:50.institutions by the way you speak. Millions, if not hundreds of
:15:51. > :15:52.millions of people, have now heard the US say that what they care about
:15:53. > :16:02.is within their borders. What do you say to that? It is such
:16:03. > :16:11.an overstatement. The point is that Donald Trump is in a Jacksonian
:16:12. > :16:14.tradition of national populism. He is appealing to the people first.
:16:15. > :16:20.The other day, I was sitting below this page during the address, and he
:16:21. > :16:24.said, everyone sitting behind me as part of the problem. Everyone in
:16:25. > :16:28.front of me, the crowd and the crowd on television, is part of the
:16:29. > :16:32.solution, so we are giving the Government back to the people. That
:16:33. > :16:35.emphasis is going to change American life, including American
:16:36. > :16:44.International relations. It doesn't moving the leak back -- it doesn't
:16:45. > :16:49.mean we are moving out of Nato, it simply means we will put our
:16:50. > :16:53.national interests first. There were echoes of Andrew Jackson's
:16:54. > :16:58.inauguration address of 1820. That night, the Jacksonians trashed the
:16:59. > :17:01.White House, but Mr Trump's people didn't do that, so there is a
:17:02. > :17:07.difference there. He also said something else in the address - that
:17:08. > :17:14.protectionism would lead to prosperity. I would suggest there is
:17:15. > :17:20.no evidence for that in the post-war world. He talked about protecting
:17:21. > :17:23.the American worker, American jobs, the American economy. I actually
:17:24. > :17:30.think that Donald Trump will not turn out to be a protectionist. If
:17:31. > :17:36.you read the heart of the deal... This is referring to two Republican
:17:37. > :17:45.senators who introduce massive tariffs in the Hoover
:17:46. > :17:50.administration. Exactly. If you read The Art Of The Deal, you will see
:17:51. > :17:53.how Donald Trump deals with individuals and countries. There is
:17:54. > :17:59.a lot of bluster, positioning, and I think you already see this in
:18:00. > :18:04.bringing jobs by the United States. Things are going to change. Let's
:18:05. > :18:11.also deal with this proposition. China is the biggest loser of this
:18:12. > :18:17.election result. Let me say this: The first time in American history
:18:18. > :18:25.and American president has set forth his view of the world, and it is a
:18:26. > :18:29.mercantile view of the world, who makes more money, who gets more
:18:30. > :18:34.trade, it doesn't look at the shared values, leadership and defends the
:18:35. > :18:37.world needs. The art of the deal has no application to America's
:18:38. > :18:42.leadership of the world, that's what we're learning. You can be a great
:18:43. > :18:47.businessman and make great real estate deals - whether he did not is
:18:48. > :18:51.debatable - but it has nothing to do with inspiring shared values from
:18:52. > :18:55.the West. You saying China may lose, because he may pressure them to
:18:56. > :19:02.reduce their trade deficit with the US. They may or may not. We may both
:19:03. > :19:06.lose. Right now, his Secretary of State has said, and I think he will
:19:07. > :19:10.walk this back when he is brief, that they will prevent the Chinese
:19:11. > :19:14.from entering these islands in the South China Sea. If they were to do
:19:15. > :19:19.that, it would be a blockade, and there would be a shooting war
:19:20. > :19:23.between the United States and China, so US - China relations are the most
:19:24. > :19:27.important bilateral relationship of the United States, and they don't
:19:28. > :19:31.lend themselves to the bluff and bluster that may have worked when
:19:32. > :19:36.you are trying to get a big building on second Ave in Manhattan. Is China
:19:37. > :19:53.the biggest loser? I think the Chinese have a lot to lose. Gigi and
:19:54. > :19:58.Ping was in Davos this week -- Xi Jin Ping was in Davos.
:19:59. > :20:04.Is Germany the second biggest loser in the sense that I understand he
:20:05. > :20:12.hasn't agreed time to see Angela Merkel yet, also that those close to
:20:13. > :20:15.him believe that Germany is guilty of currency manipulation by adopting
:20:16. > :20:19.a weak your row instead of the strong Deutschmark, and that that is
:20:20. > :20:25.why they are running a huge balance of payments surplus with the United
:20:26. > :20:31.States. American - German relations may not be great. There is a point
:20:32. > :20:34.of view throughout Europe. You only have to talk to the southern
:20:35. > :20:38.Europeans about this question. It seems like the euro has been aligned
:20:39. > :20:44.to benefit Germany. Joe Stiglitz, the famous left of centre Democrat
:20:45. > :20:52.economist, made the same case in a recent book. In this case, I think
:20:53. > :20:56.Germany will be put under the spotlight. Angela Merkel has shown
:20:57. > :21:01.herself to be the most respected and the most successful leader in
:21:02. > :21:05.Europe. We who care about the West, who care about the shared values of
:21:06. > :21:10.the West, should pray and hope that she is re-elected. This isn't about
:21:11. > :21:15.dollars and cents. We're living in a time whether Russian leader has
:21:16. > :21:21.another country in Europe and for some inexplicable reason, the
:21:22. > :21:24.American president, who can use his insult diplomacy on everyone,
:21:25. > :21:30.including Mrs Merkel, the only person he can't seem to find
:21:31. > :21:34.anything to criticise about is Mr Putin. There are things more
:21:35. > :21:38.important than the actual details of your currency. There are things like
:21:39. > :21:41.preventing another war in Europe, preventing a war between the Chinese
:21:42. > :21:48.and the US. You talk about the Trident missile all morning, nuclear
:21:49. > :21:53.deterrence is extremely important. It doesn't lend itself to the bluff
:21:54. > :21:56.and bluster of a real estate deal. I understand all that, but the fact we
:21:57. > :22:01.are even talking about these things shows the new world we are moving
:22:02. > :22:05.into. I'd like to get you both to react to this. This is a man that
:22:06. > :22:13.ended the Bush Dynasty, a man that beat the Clinton machine. In his
:22:14. > :22:15.inauguration, not only did he not reach out to the Democrats, he
:22:16. > :22:22.didn't even mention the Republicans. These are changed days for us. They
:22:23. > :22:26.are, and change can be good or disastrous. I'm worried that it's
:22:27. > :22:32.easy in the world of diplomacy and in them -- for the leadership of the
:22:33. > :22:36.United States to break relationships and ruin alliances. These are things
:22:37. > :22:44.that were carefully nurtured. George Schultz, the American Secretary of
:22:45. > :22:47.State under Reagan talked about gardening, the slow, careful
:22:48. > :22:52.creation of a place with bilateral relationships that were blossoming
:22:53. > :22:55.and flowering multilateral relationships that take decades to
:22:56. > :23:01.create, and he will throw them away in a matter of days. The final
:23:02. > :23:05.word... I work for George Schultz. He was a Marine who stood up
:23:06. > :23:10.America, defended America, who would be in favour of many of the things
:23:11. > :23:15.that Donald Trump and the tramp Administration... Give him a call.
:23:16. > :23:19.His top aide macs that I've spoken to are appalled by Mr Trump's
:23:20. > :23:27.abdication of leadership. He is going to our radically -- he's going
:23:28. > :23:32.to eradicate extremist Islam from the face of the year. Is that
:23:33. > :23:36.realistic? I know people in the national security realm have worked
:23:37. > :23:42.on a plan. They say they will have such a plan in some detail within 90
:23:43. > :23:48.days. Lets hope they succeed. We have run out of time. As a issues.
:23:49. > :23:51.Thank you, both. -- fascinating issues.
:23:52. > :23:54.So Theresa May promised a big speech on Brexit, and this week -
:23:55. > :23:57.perhaps against expectation - she delivered, trying to answer
:23:58. > :23:59.claims that the government didn't have a plan with an explicit
:24:00. > :24:02.wish-list of what she hopes to achieve in negotiations with the EU.
:24:03. > :24:04.To her allies it was ambitious, bold, optimistic -
:24:05. > :24:06.to her opponents it was full of contradictions
:24:07. > :24:10.Here's Adam again, with a reminder of the speech and how
:24:11. > :24:15.There are speeches, and there are speeches.
:24:16. > :24:18.Like Theresa May's 12 principles for a Brexit deal leading
:24:19. > :24:21.to the UK fully out of the EU but still friendly in terms
:24:22. > :24:25.This agreement should allow for the freest possible trade
:24:26. > :24:28.in goods and services between Britain and the EU's member states.
:24:29. > :24:33.It should give British companies the maximum
:24:34. > :24:36.operate within European markets and let European businesses do
:24:37. > :24:44.She also said no deal would be better than the wrong deal,
:24:45. > :25:00.We want to test what people think about what she's just said.
:25:01. > :25:03.Do we have any of our future negotiating
:25:04. > :25:07.As the European Parliament voted for its new
:25:08. > :25:15.president, its chief negotiator sounded off.
:25:16. > :25:17.Saying, OK, if our European counterparts don't accept
:25:18. > :25:20.it, we're going to make from Britain a sort
:25:21. > :25:23.of free zone or tax haven, I
:25:24. > :25:29.The Prime Minister of Malta, the country that's assumed the EU's
:25:30. > :25:32.rotating presidency, spoke in sorrow and a bit of anger.
:25:33. > :25:36.We want a fair deal for the United Kingdom, but
:25:37. > :25:46.that deal necessarily needs to be inferior to membership.
:25:47. > :25:49.Next, let's hear from some enthusiastic
:25:50. > :25:54.leavers, like, I don't know, the Daily Mail?
:25:55. > :25:57.The paper lapped it up with this adoring front page.
:25:58. > :26:01.For Brexiteers, it was all manna from heaven.
:26:02. > :26:04.I think today means we are a big step closer to becoming
:26:05. > :26:07.an independent country again, with control of our own laws,
:26:08. > :26:13.I was chuckling at some of it, to be honest, because
:26:14. > :26:17.There were various phrases there which I've used myself again and
:26:18. > :26:22.Do we have any of those so-called Remoaners?
:26:23. > :26:23.There will, at the end of this deal process,
:26:24. > :26:27.so politicians get to vote on the stitch-up, but
:26:28. > :26:30.We take the view as Liberal Democrats that
:26:31. > :26:32.if this process started with democracy last June,
:26:33. > :26:37.We trusted the people with departure, we must trust them
:26:38. > :26:43.Do we have anyone from Labour, or are you all
:26:44. > :26:45.watching it in a small room somewhere?
:26:46. > :26:52.Throughout the speech, there seemed to be an implied threat that
:26:53. > :26:55.somewhere along the line, if all her optimism of a deal
:26:56. > :26:57.with the European Union didn't work, we would move
:26:58. > :26:59.into a low-tax, corporate taxation, bargain-basement economy on the
:27:00. > :27:03.I think she needs to be a bit clearer about what
:27:04. > :27:10.The Labour leader suggested he'd tell
:27:11. > :27:13.his MPs to vote in favour of starting a Brexit process if
:27:14. > :27:16.Parliament was given the choice, sparking a mini pre-revolt among
:27:17. > :27:21.Finally, do we have anyone from big business here?
:27:22. > :27:30.Of course, your all in Davos at the World Economic
:27:31. > :27:40.Clarity, first of all, really codified what many of us have been
:27:41. > :27:42.anticipating since the referendum result,
:27:43. > :27:43.particularly around the
:27:44. > :27:47.I think what we've also seen today is the Government's
:27:48. > :27:51.willingness to put a bit of edge into the negotiating dynamic, and I
:27:52. > :27:55.Trade negotiations are negotiations, and you have to lay out, and you
:27:56. > :27:58.have to be pretty tough to get what you want.
:27:59. > :28:00.Although some business people on the slopes speculated
:28:01. > :28:02.about moving some of their operations out of Brexit Britain.
:28:03. > :28:20.We saw there the instant reaction of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn,
:28:21. > :28:23.but how will the party respond to the challenge posed by Brexit
:28:24. > :28:27.Well, I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.
:28:28. > :28:36.People know that Ukip and the Tories are for Brexit. The Lib Dems are
:28:37. > :28:40.four remain. What is Labour for? For respecting the result of the
:28:41. > :28:45.referendum. It was a 72% turnout, very high for an election of that
:28:46. > :28:48.nature, and we believe you have to respect that result. You couldn't
:28:49. > :28:53.have a situation where people like Tim Farron are saying to people,
:28:54. > :28:56.millions of people, sorry, you got it wrong, we in London no better.
:28:57. > :29:03.However, how the Tories go forward from here has to be subject to
:29:04. > :29:08.parliamentary scrutiny. Is it Shadow Cabinet policy to vote for the
:29:09. > :29:12.triggering of Article 50? Our policy is not to block Article 50. That is
:29:13. > :29:19.what the leader was saying this morning. So are you for it? Our
:29:20. > :29:24.policy is not to block it. You are talking about voting for it. We
:29:25. > :29:29.don't know what the Supreme Court is going to say, and we don't know what
:29:30. > :29:32.legislation Government will bring forward, and we don't know what
:29:33. > :29:39.amendment we will move, but we're clear that we will not vote to block
:29:40. > :29:47.it. OK, so you won't bow to stop it, but you could abstain? No, what we
:29:48. > :29:51.will do... Either you vote for or against all you abstain. There are
:29:52. > :29:55.too many unanswered questions. For instance, the position of EU
:29:56. > :29:59.migrants working and living in this country. You may not get the answer
:30:00. > :30:04.to that before Article 50 comes before the Commons, so what would
:30:05. > :30:09.you do then? We are giving to amend it. We can only tell you exactly how
:30:10. > :30:12.we will amend it when we understand what sort of legislation the
:30:13. > :30:15.Government is putting forward, and in the course of moving those
:30:16. > :30:20.amendments, we will ask the questions that the people of Britain
:30:21. > :30:25.whether they voted to leave remain want answered.
:30:26. > :30:33.When you come to a collective view, will there be a three line whip? I
:30:34. > :30:38.can't tell you, because we have not seen the government 's legislation.
:30:39. > :30:44.But when you see it, you will come to a collective view. Many regard
:30:45. > :30:50.this as extremely important. Will there be a three line whip on
:30:51. > :30:55.Labour's collective view? Because it is important, we shouldn't get ahead
:30:56. > :30:59.of ourselves. When we see what the Supreme Court says, and crucially,
:31:00. > :31:03.when we see what the government position is, you will hear what the
:31:04. > :31:10.whipping is. Will shadow ministers be able to defy any three line whip
:31:11. > :31:16.on this? That is not normally the case. But they did on an early vote
:31:17. > :31:21.that the government introduced on Article 50. Those who voted against
:31:22. > :31:26.it are still there. In the Blair years, you certainly couldn't defy a
:31:27. > :31:32.three line whip. We will see what happens going forward. I remember
:31:33. > :31:35.when the Tories were hopelessly divided over the EU. All these
:31:36. > :31:42.Maastricht votes and an list arguments. Now it is Labour. Just
:31:43. > :31:54.another symptom of Mr Corbyn's poor leadership. Not at all. Two thirds
:31:55. > :31:59.voted to leave, a third to remain. We are seeking to bring the country
:32:00. > :32:05.and the party together. We will do that by pointing out how disastrous
:32:06. > :32:14.a Tory Brexit would be. Meanwhile, around 80 Labour MPs will defy a
:32:15. > :32:19.three line whip. It's too early to say that. Will you publish what you
:32:20. > :32:24.believe the negotiating goal should be? We are clear on it. We think
:32:25. > :32:30.that the economy, jobs and living standards should be the priority.
:32:31. > :32:36.What Theresa May is saying is that holding her party together is her
:32:37. > :32:42.priority. She is putting party above country. Does Labour think we should
:32:43. > :32:47.remain members of the single market? Ideally, in terms of jobs and the
:32:48. > :32:52.economy, of course. Ritt -ish business thinks that as well. Is
:32:53. > :32:56.Labour policy that we should remain a member of the single market?
:32:57. > :33:00.Labour leaves that jobs and the economy comes first, and if they
:33:01. > :33:08.come first, you would want to remain part of the single market. But to
:33:09. > :33:15.remain a member? Jobs and the economy comes first, and to do that,
:33:16. > :33:19.ideally, guess. So with that, comes free movement of people, the
:33:20. > :33:25.jurisdiction of the European, and a multi-million never shipped thief.
:33:26. > :33:31.Is Labour prepared to pay that? Money is neither here nor there.
:33:32. > :33:40.Because the Tories will be asked to pay a lot of money... The EU has
:33:41. > :33:47.made it clear that you cannot have... I am asking for Labour's
:33:48. > :33:53.position. Our position is rooted in the reality, and the reality is that
:33:54. > :33:56.you cannot have the benefits of the member of the European Union,
:33:57. > :33:59.including being a member of the single market, without
:34:00. > :34:04.responsibility, including free movement of people. Free movement,
:34:05. > :34:12.is remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Is
:34:13. > :34:17.that the Labour position? You've said that Labour wants to remain a
:34:18. > :34:22.member of the single market. That is the price tag that comes with it.
:34:23. > :34:27.Does Labour agree with paying that price tag? We are not pre-empting
:34:28. > :34:33.negotiation. Our goals are protect jobs and the British economy. Is it
:34:34. > :34:42.Labour's position that we remain a member of the customs union? Well,
:34:43. > :34:52.if we don't, I don't see how Theresa May can keep our promises and has
:34:53. > :35:01.unfettered access... You said Labour's position was clear. It is!
:35:02. > :35:06.It is clear that Theresa May... I am not asking about Theresa May. Is it
:35:07. > :35:12.Labour's position to remain a member of the customs union? It is Labour's
:35:13. > :35:16.position to do what is right for British industry. Depending on how
:35:17. > :35:21.the negotiations go, it may prove that coming out of the customs
:35:22. > :35:27.union, as Theresa May has indicated she wants to do, could prove
:35:28. > :35:33.catastrophic, and could actually destroy some of her promises. You do
:35:34. > :35:40.accept that if we are member of the customs union, we cannot do our own
:35:41. > :35:46.free trade deals? What free trade deals are you talking about? The
:35:47. > :35:51.ones that Labour might want to do in the future. First, we have to
:35:52. > :35:55.protect British jobs and British industries. If you are talking about
:35:56. > :36:00.free trade deals with Donald Trump, the danger is that Theresa May will
:36:01. > :36:07.get drawn into a free-trade deal with America that will open up the
:36:08. > :36:12.NHS to American corporate... The cards are in Theresa May's hands. If
:36:13. > :36:16.she takes us out of the single market, if she takes us out of the
:36:17. > :36:22.customs union, we will have to deal with that. How big a crisis for
:36:23. > :36:28.Jeremy Corbyn will be if Labour loses both by-elections in February.
:36:29. > :36:37.I don't believe we will lose both. But if he did? I am not anticipating
:36:38. > :36:41.that. Is Labour lost two seats in a midterm of a Tory government, would
:36:42. > :36:45.that be business as usual? I'm not prepared to see us lose those seats,
:36:46. > :36:48.so I will not talk about something that will not happen. Thank you.
:36:49. > :36:50.You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:51. > :36:52.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:53. > :36:55.Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead,
:36:56. > :36:57.when we'll be talking to Business Minister Margot James
:36:58. > :37:00.about the government's new industrial strategy and that
:37:01. > :37:03.crucial Supreme Court ruling on Brexit.
:37:04. > :37:12.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:13. > :37:14.Hello, and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:37:15. > :37:17.In today's programme: Crossing the line.
:37:18. > :37:26.Why the first Welsh tax for 800 years needs an urgent revamp.
:37:27. > :37:29.And we've heard from the PM, but what does the Welsh Conservative
:37:30. > :37:31.leader and leading Brexiteer Andrew RT Davies make of the
:37:32. > :37:35.But first, tomorrow morning Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood
:37:36. > :37:38.are expected to announce their plan for Wales after Brexit.
:37:39. > :37:42.The two leaders, along with the welsh Lib Dems have
:37:43. > :37:44.The two leaders, along with the Welsh Lib Dems have
:37:45. > :37:46.agreed a common platform where they will call
:37:47. > :37:48.for continued access to the single market,
:37:49. > :37:49.but also a fairer system of immigration.
:37:50. > :37:52.So how will all that play into the current situation?
:37:53. > :37:55.Two women who know all about the intricacies involved
:37:56. > :37:58.are the Labour AM and former MEP Eluned Morgan and Doctor Jo Hunt
:37:59. > :38:07.who's an expert in EU Law at Cardiff University.
:38:08. > :38:14.What do you know about what we can expect tomorrow morning? The joint
:38:15. > :38:19.platform between Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood? I haven't seen a copy
:38:20. > :38:23.of the paper yet but this issue of having the best possible access to
:38:24. > :38:28.the single market is top of the list. There is an understanding that
:38:29. > :38:30.on immigration that there needs to be a different approach to
:38:31. > :38:34.immigration so that if people come here they need to be here with the
:38:35. > :38:41.job but there is also an understanding that we need people to
:38:42. > :38:43.be helping us with our services, our health service and social service in
:38:44. > :38:49.particular and we will be in trouble if some of these people have to go
:38:50. > :38:53.broke. Everyone accepts that we want the best access to the single
:38:54. > :38:56.market, everyone apart from North Korea have access to the single
:38:57. > :39:00.market, how do you think the balance has to be struck between getting as
:39:01. > :39:04.much access as possible and at the same time doing something on
:39:05. > :39:09.immigration because Bert two aren't necessarily compatible? If we get
:39:10. > :39:12.the access issue wrong it will impact jobs in this country
:39:13. > :39:17.massively but it would not just impact jobs but it would impact
:39:18. > :39:21.things like we're already seeing the haemorrhaging of jobs in the City of
:39:22. > :39:26.London which provide 12% of the income of this country. That is
:39:27. > :39:30.going to impact on jobs, not just on jobs but on our services in
:39:31. > :39:33.hospitals and schools and people need to understand that this is not
:39:34. > :39:39.just about jobs but about services and about what will happen in Wales
:39:40. > :39:46.in future. It is just a huge gamble with the future of this country.
:39:47. > :39:52.Joel Hunt, you are our expert and we still like experts. With the point
:39:53. > :39:57.of the balance between single market membership and freedom of
:39:58. > :40:01.immigration, freedom to travel, how closely tied are those things? We
:40:02. > :40:05.hear politicians saying they could do someone on freedom of movement
:40:06. > :40:11.and still of full membership of the single market, is it possible? Well,
:40:12. > :40:15.the single market, or the internal market, it is referred to in
:40:16. > :40:19.different ways, but it is the same thing, the idea that we have free
:40:20. > :40:22.movement of the factors of production, goods, services and
:40:23. > :40:26.capital, and to start with it was workers but that has been expanded
:40:27. > :40:31.out over the years. When we look at the Treaty tells us that the
:40:32. > :40:35.internal market comprises both ball things so they are, as we have seen
:40:36. > :40:40.so far indivisible, as far as we have experienced it so far. The
:40:41. > :40:45.thing to recognise with the free movement provisions is that none of
:40:46. > :40:47.them are absolute, there are restrictions and limitations
:40:48. > :40:51.available on all of those things and if we take the free movement of
:40:52. > :40:56.people, the free movement of workers, there is a piece of
:40:57. > :41:03.legislation, EU law, citizenship directive, that makes it very clear
:41:04. > :41:07.that EU citizens, those who have EU nationality, of one of the member
:41:08. > :41:11.states, they can take advantage of the free movement rights but it
:41:12. > :41:14.doesn't mean you can go and live in another member state without
:41:15. > :41:19.restrictions and have full access to all the services in another member
:41:20. > :41:22.state -- member state. The citizenship directive makes it clear
:41:23. > :41:27.you have the right to be in another member state for three months but
:41:28. > :41:31.after that, as far as EU law is concerned, then you need to be
:41:32. > :41:35.either economically active, a worker, or a student, or retired,
:41:36. > :41:40.but you have to have the resources to support yourself. Three months is
:41:41. > :41:48.something that most people did not know what was happening, is it Jock
:41:49. > :41:52.-- is it just not being implemented? It falls to the member states to
:41:53. > :41:56.implement those rules. We have a court of justice that interprets
:41:57. > :42:00.these provisions and it has taken quite a robust interpretation of
:42:01. > :42:03.what these rights are because the free movement rights are allied to
:42:04. > :42:07.the right of non-discrimination, that you get treated as though you
:42:08. > :42:14.are a citizen of the state you are residing in. When we talk about the
:42:15. > :42:17.directive not being a burden, talking about not being a burden, so
:42:18. > :42:20.you would not be fulfilling the terms of the directive if you became
:42:21. > :42:24.a burden on the social services of that member state, the court said
:42:25. > :42:30.not to be an unreasonable burden, so there is space there to interpret
:42:31. > :42:35.what that means. EU law provides for restrictions that perhaps haven't
:42:36. > :42:39.always been fully given effect to. The other side of that is that many
:42:40. > :42:44.voters would have voted with a view of regaining control of borders, but
:42:45. > :42:47.the other side is the freedom of the rules of the single market making it
:42:48. > :42:53.easy to trade internationally with countries outside the EU, do you not
:42:54. > :42:59.have a note of optimism about the ability of the UK to strike a deal
:43:00. > :43:03.there? The person with a note of optimism is Theresa May but I think
:43:04. > :43:06.it is slightly naive to think that we can tear up a relationship that
:43:07. > :43:13.has been developed over 40 years and is our biggest market by a long
:43:14. > :43:18.shot. It is what we hand, it is a bird in hand, and we are tearing up
:43:19. > :43:20.their relationship in the hope that we can develop relationships with
:43:21. > :43:24.countries across the rest of the globe and we know from the Donald
:43:25. > :43:31.Trump speech this week that he will put America first, if we have a
:43:32. > :43:35.negotiation with him it will not be about the British benefit, it will
:43:36. > :43:38.about the benefits of the United States so I think it is very high
:43:39. > :43:42.risk and I think we are playing about with peoples lives and
:43:43. > :43:47.livelihoods and it will impact on our schools and hospitals and we
:43:48. > :43:51.need wake up to the reality of what is going on in this country. We know
:43:52. > :43:57.that tomorrow Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood will have a plan for
:43:58. > :44:02.Brexit. What is the danger that Theresa May ignores it completely?
:44:03. > :44:07.What I'm hoping is that in the White Paper we will see an evidence -based
:44:08. > :44:14.report, which will show categorically the impact of going
:44:15. > :44:19.towards a World Trade Organisation agreements, for example, would have
:44:20. > :44:26.on this country. That is not necessarily what will happen. It is
:44:27. > :44:28.the worst-case scenario and it is being rather presumptuous to think
:44:29. > :44:32.that all the other member states will just roll over and say that
:44:33. > :44:36.they will give us agreements on all of these different sectors of the
:44:37. > :44:41.economy. I think we need to wake up to the reality and make sure also
:44:42. > :44:44.that we have a better relationship, a new relationship with the UK
:44:45. > :44:50.Government backed constitutionally we are also won a different footing.
:44:51. > :44:54.Touching on the element of the trade benefit for the EU to trade freely
:44:55. > :44:59.with the UK, but those remaining countries of the EU are fighting for
:45:00. > :45:03.their political future over the political union, how much of a
:45:04. > :45:10.conflict is there between those two elements within the remaining EU
:45:11. > :45:14.countries? Well, we have seen the economic case being made, that it
:45:15. > :45:19.would be in the interest of the EU to continue having free movement and
:45:20. > :45:25.open markets between the UK and the EU, but what is clear is that is not
:45:26. > :45:27.simply about economics, there is a story and the history and a
:45:28. > :45:34.narrative about being part of the European Union that the other member
:45:35. > :45:36.states have a different engagement with a different understanding of
:45:37. > :45:40.what being part of the European Union is and what it brings and
:45:41. > :45:46.gives them, so it will not simply be an economic decision that they take.
:45:47. > :45:52.So they are fighting for their future and it may be more punitive
:45:53. > :45:56.than is needed? I think the language of being punitive and damaging, I
:45:57. > :46:01.think that is not the position that they are taking. This is the deal,
:46:02. > :46:07.you are not going to get a better deal than being part of the EU. The
:46:08. > :46:12.EU brings you those rights to trade freely. If you want people to move.
:46:13. > :46:20.There is no better deal on the table than that. We are out of time at the
:46:21. > :46:23.moment so we have the Brexit tomorrow and the Supreme Court on
:46:24. > :46:24.Tuesday so there are surely more opportunities. Thank you very much
:46:25. > :46:26.for both of you. It's the first Welsh tax to be
:46:27. > :46:29.raised here for 800 years, but is the devolution of stamp duty
:46:30. > :46:32.going to cause a huge headache? There's been a call for urgent
:46:33. > :46:35.clarification over what it will mean for more than 1,000 properties
:46:36. > :46:38.which have land in both The Law Society says it
:46:39. > :46:50.could be a right mess! This has taken on great political
:46:51. > :46:55.significance over the past 20 years. Devolution has seen more and more
:46:56. > :46:58.power drift across the border into Wales and sparking several
:46:59. > :47:02.cross-border debates. As Wales prepares to raise its own taxes for
:47:03. > :47:08.the first time in 800 years there is a new set of questions to consider.
:47:09. > :47:12.Next year stamp duty will be replaced in Wales by the land
:47:13. > :47:19.transaction tax, but what does it mean for properties like this one.
:47:20. > :47:24.It has land in Powys and Shropshire. According to the map I am right on
:47:25. > :47:27.the border and legislation dictates that as of April next year anyone
:47:28. > :47:34.wanting to buy this property or one like it would have to make two
:47:35. > :47:37.separate tax returns, paying the new Welsh land transaction tax, based on
:47:38. > :47:42.the value of the land in Wales, and they would have to pay stamp duty on
:47:43. > :47:47.the parts of the property in England. We foresee that separate
:47:48. > :47:51.valuations of land and buildings will be required for English land
:47:52. > :47:57.and for Welsh land. Is that a difficult process? It is an extra
:47:58. > :48:02.additional cost for somebody that is selling. The changes will also
:48:03. > :48:07.complicate things for solicitors like this who crossed the border on
:48:08. > :48:11.the way to work in Oswestry. Emma and others in her profession are
:48:12. > :48:16.calling for clarity on how the new arrangement will work in areas like
:48:17. > :48:21.this. In terms of valuing the two separate areas of land, it has to be
:48:22. > :48:25.done on a just and reasonable basis. There is no further guidance as to
:48:26. > :48:29.what that means but it is ultimately the responsibility of the purchaser
:48:30. > :48:37.and their advisers to make sure the correct tax is paid. Are you want
:48:38. > :48:42.and need that mistakes will be made? If we don't get the clarity than I
:48:43. > :48:45.am sure there will be. That is a concern for solicitors and for
:48:46. > :48:50.buyers who are concerned with making sure the right taxes are paid. It
:48:51. > :48:54.has been found that there are more than 1000 properties straddling the
:48:55. > :48:57.border and experts believe there are many more. I don't think people
:48:58. > :49:02.understood until we looked into it in detail just how many properties
:49:03. > :49:06.could conceivably be caught up in broader issues. You would imagine
:49:07. > :49:10.that the common-sense approach would be to say that something is mostly
:49:11. > :49:13.in Wales or mostly in England and perhaps come to an arrangement that
:49:14. > :49:20.might solve that, but the law is very clear, the basis on which we
:49:21. > :49:23.have devolution is very clear, you must apportion that part of the land
:49:24. > :49:28.of the building or the property to either Wales if any part of it is in
:49:29. > :49:34.Wales, or to England if any part is in England. In terms of clearing up
:49:35. > :49:37.the issue, what must happen next? We need to find where the border is,
:49:38. > :49:41.which might sound curious because there is evidence of whether border
:49:42. > :49:45.is, but the land Registry that keeps a copy of every land transaction now
:49:46. > :49:49.in Wales and England hasn't needed to plot the border in the past so
:49:50. > :49:56.its digital maps do not include the border. The government must engage
:49:57. > :50:00.in those negotiations with the land Registry now. There is one year and
:50:01. > :50:04.two months left to sort it out, and to not only sort it out but have the
:50:05. > :50:09.IT stress tested and working on day one. If it is then the Welsh
:50:10. > :50:13.government had Wales will have the money it is entitled to but if it is
:50:14. > :50:18.not it will be a right mess to sort out really. The Welsh government
:50:19. > :50:21.says it is working with the land Registry to identify all the
:50:22. > :50:25.properties that could be affected and work is underway to make sure
:50:26. > :50:29.the border is properly mapped. The land Registry told us it is a
:50:30. > :50:33.complex issue but it is confident and appropriate resolution will be
:50:34. > :50:39.found. In the meantime, and with more powers in the offing for Wales,
:50:40. > :50:43.should we expect more similar difficulties in the future? Policy
:50:44. > :50:46.in Wales and England will diverges devolution extends and we see
:50:47. > :50:49.different policies emerge from both governments so naturally these are
:50:50. > :50:54.things which we would expect to see more of in the next few years as
:50:55. > :51:00.policy develops. We will develop ways of working out the effects of
:51:01. > :51:04.different types of policy changes and also as legislation is being
:51:05. > :51:08.implemented making sure that there is full public awareness of any
:51:09. > :51:14.changes of policy and changes in law. As for the land transaction
:51:15. > :51:19.tax, it will be introduced in Wales in April 2018 and we will see if it
:51:20. > :51:20.is enough time to provide answers to all the questions being asked along
:51:21. > :51:22.the border. We've heard what Labour,
:51:23. > :51:24.Plaid and the Lib Dems plan to do about Brexit,
:51:25. > :51:26.but what about the Conservatives? Their leader in Wales Andrew
:51:27. > :51:34.RT Davies is here now. Good morning. Thank you for coming
:51:35. > :51:40.in. Theresa May made a big speech last week and the headline figure
:51:41. > :51:44.coming out of the single market and the single market and what did you
:51:45. > :51:49.make of that speech overall? As you would expect me to say, it was a
:51:50. > :51:52.very strong speech and outlined the 12 principles be negotiations would
:51:53. > :51:57.be conducted under. Triggering article 50 will trigger those
:51:58. > :52:00.negotiations at the legislative format will bring all of that under
:52:01. > :52:04.one umbrella and it shows a government that is in control and
:52:05. > :52:07.shaping its destiny and the destiny of this country, unlike what we are
:52:08. > :52:15.seeing here in Wales from Welsh Labour. We have heard earlier in the
:52:16. > :52:20.programme there are dangers of losing the membership of the single
:52:21. > :52:24.market, should it be a concern? Well, Eluned is talking the same
:52:25. > :52:31.language she spoke prior to June 23. We have a mandate here in Wales. The
:52:32. > :52:35.people of Wales along with United Kingdom voted to renegotiate our
:52:36. > :52:40.relationship with Europe, pull us out of Europe, I am not sure if
:52:41. > :52:43.Eluned is talking membership, participation, access, depending on
:52:44. > :52:48.the day the Labour position changes and what is important for us is that
:52:49. > :52:51.we are able to trade and we can get access but we get access on a level
:52:52. > :52:54.playing field. The important thing that people told us in the
:52:55. > :52:59.referendum was that sovereignty needed to come back to the United
:53:00. > :53:10.Kingdom and decisions be made here in the United
:53:11. > :53:13.Kingdom. If you accept that then you can move forward but sadly Eluned
:53:14. > :53:16.another Labour politicians and unplugged Cumbria in particular
:53:17. > :53:18.cannot come to terms with that. The problem with an impediment on our
:53:19. > :53:21.ability to trade with the European Union is when you look at how many
:53:22. > :53:24.of our exports depend on those countries of the EU then it is a
:53:25. > :53:27.huge chunk of our exports, over two thirds goes to European Union and
:53:28. > :53:31.the rest of the world is almost not there. Anything that impairs that
:53:32. > :53:37.ability will be a huge danger to the economy, went it? That is why the
:53:38. > :53:41.Cabinet in London has been crafting the ability to trade and access with
:53:42. > :53:46.markets, whether it is European or global, and we have a department
:53:47. > :53:51.dedicated to bringing investment into the United Kingdom. I am in an
:53:52. > :53:56.industry, agriculture, that has good trading relations with Europe, but
:53:57. > :53:59.do not forget that your trades with us and in agricultural produce, the
:54:00. > :54:03.Republic of Ireland, for example, depends on access to our market. We
:54:04. > :54:07.want a strong Europe and a strong United Kingdom, this is not about
:54:08. > :54:12.doing someone over. Regrettably Carwyn Jones turns to all the
:54:13. > :54:17.parties here in Wales to see if there could be a consensus around a
:54:18. > :54:21.negotiating position in Wales and that is a missed opportunity. You
:54:22. > :54:25.wrote an article for the Sunday Times this morning and said that in
:54:26. > :54:29.recent years the Welsh economy has become too reliant on EU market,
:54:30. > :54:37.that 68%, is it who I? Doesn't need to be lower? I want to trade
:54:38. > :54:40.globally and with our neighbours on the neocons and so wherever trade
:54:41. > :54:45.can be sort we need access into those markets. I am a businessman
:54:46. > :54:49.and I have traded all my life so we want a strong Europe and a strong
:54:50. > :54:53.United Kingdom and the principles that Theresa May outlined, the 12
:54:54. > :54:56.tenets of the negotiating principle but she has put on the table from
:54:57. > :55:01.the speech on Tuesday outlined what the UK Government would be doing. It
:55:02. > :55:05.is a government that has lead and Remainers in it. They sit on the
:55:06. > :55:10.front row. When Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood make their speech
:55:11. > :55:16.tomorrow in London it will just be the coalition pre-June 23. That will
:55:17. > :55:20.not help the Welsh cause. What we will have is in North America, the
:55:21. > :55:25.second largest chunk on our chart, it has a brand-new president who
:55:26. > :55:29.says America first, by American, high American, we will not get a
:55:30. > :55:34.look in. We are, I am comments to that, because you have a businessman
:55:35. > :55:38.in the White House who realises that to create American jobs you need
:55:39. > :55:42.trade and you need economic activity and ultimately we are a nation that
:55:43. > :55:48.has traded globally and traded with our continental cousins to make sure
:55:49. > :55:55.that we have a successful country. He won the election on putting
:55:56. > :55:59.America first and not putting trade. But America became a superpower by
:56:00. > :56:02.trade and driving trade around the globe. In Wales we have a very
:56:03. > :56:06.strong off and we have a strong United Kingdom government, batting
:56:07. > :56:10.for Wales, but we have a disorganised message coming from
:56:11. > :56:15.Wales under Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood who signed up to his message,
:56:16. > :56:20.that has changed numerous times since June 23. The other devolved
:56:21. > :56:21.administrations were able to table their proposals last birthday and
:56:22. > :56:25.Northern Ireland doesn't even have a government but they had proposals on
:56:26. > :56:31.the table. Carwyn Jones had nothing on the table last Thursday. You have
:56:32. > :56:34.an article in the Sunday paper, as does Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood
:56:35. > :56:39.today and they say they want a plan that could tighten immigration
:56:40. > :56:43.controls without breaching EU rules on freedom of movement. Is that
:56:44. > :56:47.something you can sign up to? I am on record as being a pragmatist when
:56:48. > :56:52.it comes to immigration, I think culturally and socially and --
:56:53. > :56:56.economically it helps and benefits countries so actually I do believe
:56:57. > :56:59.that we have to respond to the outcome of the referendum but Europe
:57:00. > :57:03.needs to respond as well to its principles around the single market.
:57:04. > :57:07.When the single market was created and the tenets underpinned the
:57:08. > :57:10.single market, the mass movement of people around Europe was not a
:57:11. > :57:16.consideration. It is today and when you look at one of Angela Merkel 's
:57:17. > :57:19.key tenants today, talking up the possibility of a positive Brexit
:57:20. > :57:24.then we can really see a change in direction on the continent. I am
:57:25. > :57:29.positive about these negotiations. We just heard from an expert on EU
:57:30. > :57:32.law from Cardiff University is saying that the only economic
:57:33. > :57:35.freedom you have is to come here for three months but it hasn't been
:57:36. > :57:40.implemented by the UK Government in the last six years and who has been
:57:41. > :57:44.in charge that? Theresa May. Why has she not done more with the powers
:57:45. > :57:48.she already has? I will point to many commentators who say the
:57:49. > :57:53.problems around immigration as they see it and community see it began in
:57:54. > :57:59.2004 when under various agreement Tony Blair could have put safeguards
:58:00. > :58:03.in and restrictions in but he chose not to. Communities spoke with one
:58:04. > :58:08.voice on June 23 and we are leaving the European Union so let us get on
:58:09. > :58:12.with it. Sadly for Wales Carwyn Jones is going down the narrow path
:58:13. > :58:16.of isolationism when he is talking his politics and he is leaning on
:58:17. > :58:20.Plaid Cymru as a crutch to be safe with. Ultimately we could have had a
:58:21. > :58:26.political axe consensus here in Wales that would lift the vision for
:58:27. > :58:30.Wales and the aspiration for Wales. Where do you think you could have
:58:31. > :58:33.found common ground with Carwyn Jones Leanne Wood when they say
:58:34. > :58:36.immigration is not a problem? It is difficult to pre-empt the paper that
:58:37. > :58:42.they will bring forward tomorrow because I have not seen it. Where
:58:43. > :58:47.would you have tried to find agreement? If I can find agreement
:58:48. > :58:50.within that paper I will be the first to recognise it but ultimately
:58:51. > :58:54.what I am saying to you is that we weren't able to put a paper on the
:58:55. > :58:57.table last Thursday when the other devolved administrations did that we
:58:58. > :59:01.have been behind the curve at every opportunity on this because they are
:59:02. > :59:05.in denial about the referendum result on June 23. We are leaving
:59:06. > :59:09.the European Union, let's get on with it and build strong trading
:59:10. > :59:15.relationships with the Globe and our cousins on the European continent
:59:16. > :59:17.because ultimately a strong Europe and the strong UK and a strong
:59:18. > :59:21.global economy is where we all prosper. Should the assembly have a
:59:22. > :59:27.say before the final deal? Should they have a vote to ratify the final
:59:28. > :59:30.deal? No, because Westminster is the sovereign parliament in this
:59:31. > :59:33.discussion. What the assembly and the assembly government should be
:59:34. > :59:36.doing is making sure we have a health service that gets people of
:59:37. > :59:41.the waiting list and they should be dealing with the economy and the
:59:42. > :59:47.situation as ?90 a week less pay goes to workers in Wales. They
:59:48. > :59:50.should drive up education standards and they have driven those standards
:59:51. > :59:54.down and they are I coalition we are being asked to trust to bring these
:59:55. > :59:56.negotiations forward in Wales and I wouldn't.
:59:57. > :00:00.We'll bring you the latest on Brexit and anything else that's going on,
:00:01. > :00:04.Don't forget we're @walespolitics on Twitter, but for now that's
:00:05. > :00:06.all from me, diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.
:00:07. > :00:09.have to do this. Thank you to you both.
:00:10. > :00:19.What exactly is the government's industrial strategy?
:00:20. > :00:23.Will ministers lose their supreme court battle over Brexit, and,
:00:24. > :00:35.Well, tomorrow Theresa May is launching the government's
:00:36. > :00:39.industrial strategy - and to talk about that we're joined
:00:40. > :00:46.by the Business Minister, Margot James - welcome to the show.
:00:47. > :00:54.When you look at what has already been released in advance of the
:00:55. > :00:59.Prime Minister's statement, it was embargoed for last night, it's not
:01:00. > :01:03.really an industrial strategy, it's just another skills strategy, of
:01:04. > :01:10.which we have had about six since the war, and our skills training is
:01:11. > :01:15.among the worst in Western Europe? There will be plenty more to be
:01:16. > :01:18.announced tomorrow in what is really a discussion document in the
:01:19. > :01:23.preparation of an industrial strategy which we intend to launch
:01:24. > :01:31.properly later in the year. Let's look at skills. You are allocating
:01:32. > :01:38.117 of funding to establish institutes of technology. How many?
:01:39. > :01:43.The exact number is to be agreed, but the spend is there, and it will
:01:44. > :01:46.be on top of what we are doing to the university, technical
:01:47. > :01:53.colleges... How many were lit bio create? We don't know exactly, but
:01:54. > :01:57.we want to put them in areas where young people are performing under
:01:58. > :02:04.the national average. But if you don't know how many, what is the
:02:05. > :02:07.basis of 170 million? That is the amount the Treasury have released.
:02:08. > :02:12.The something that is very important, we are agreed we need to
:02:13. > :02:18.devote more resources to vocational training and get it on a par with
:02:19. > :02:24.academic qualifications. I looked on the website of my old university,
:02:25. > :02:29.the University of Glasgow, the Russell group universities. Its
:02:30. > :02:37.spending budget every year is over 600 million. That's one University.
:02:38. > :02:42.And yet you have a mere 170 million foreign unspecified number of
:02:43. > :02:47.institutes of technology. It hasn't got equality with the academics? You
:02:48. > :02:51.have to remember that just as you have quoted figures from Glasgow
:02:52. > :02:56.University there are further education colleges all over the
:02:57. > :03:04.country. The government is already spending on 16 to 19-year-olds. But
:03:05. > :03:09.also, we are going to be adding... This is new money that is all to the
:03:10. > :03:14.good, because we are already spending a lot. We have already
:03:15. > :03:19.created 2 million more apprentices since 2010. That many are not in
:03:20. > :03:24.what we would call the stem skills, and a lot come nowhere near what the
:03:25. > :03:30.Dutch, Germans and Austrians would have. I'm not clear how another 170
:03:31. > :03:34.million would do. You said it is more than skills. In what way is
:03:35. > :03:46.this industrial strategy different from what Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne
:03:47. > :03:48.did before? It's different because it is involving every single
:03:49. > :03:50.government department, and bringing together everything that government
:03:51. > :03:53.does in a bid to make Britain more competitive as it disengages from
:03:54. > :03:59.the European Union. That is what the last Labour government did. They
:04:00. > :04:03.will much more targeted interventions. Under the Labour
:04:04. > :04:08.government, the auto industry got some benefit. A few more sectors
:04:09. > :04:13.were broached under the coalition government. This is all about
:04:14. > :04:18.communities all over the country, some of whom have fallen behind in
:04:19. > :04:23.terms of wage growth and good jobs. The Prime Minister has already
:04:24. > :04:31.announced 2 billion as a research and development priority in specific
:04:32. > :04:34.technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, medical technology,
:04:35. > :04:40.satellites... So you are doing what has been done before. There is
:04:41. > :04:45.nothing new about this. Wait until tomorrow, because there will be some
:04:46. > :04:48.new strands emerging. It is the beginning of the dialogue with
:04:49. > :04:54.industry and with workers, and the responses will be invited up until
:04:55. > :05:00.April. That will inform a wider strategy that goes beyond skills. I
:05:01. > :05:05.have moved on to beyond them. I'm slightly puzzled as to how the
:05:06. > :05:10.government knows where to invest in robotics, when it can't even provide
:05:11. > :05:15.the NHS with a decent IT system. Discuss. I have to say I find it
:05:16. > :05:18.bizarre that the government is making an announcement about an
:05:19. > :05:23.amount of money and don't know where it's going. This is typical of all
:05:24. > :05:29.governments over all political shoes, which is total disregard for
:05:30. > :05:37.technical education, so different from Germany, who actually invest in
:05:38. > :05:44.the technological side. Germany has a long history. We want to emulate
:05:45. > :05:48.some of the best of what German companies do. Siemens sponsor
:05:49. > :05:54.primary schools, for example. We want to get a dialogue on with
:05:55. > :05:59.business. We don't want to decide where this money is going. By the
:06:00. > :06:05.way, it was 4.7 billion that the government has agreed to invest in
:06:06. > :06:08.science and research, which is the most significant increase in
:06:09. > :06:13.decades. Can you remind us what happened in Northern Ireland, when
:06:14. > :06:16.the government invested money in state-of-the-art technology for
:06:17. > :06:24.energy? No one needs to be reminded of that, and that is not what we are
:06:25. > :06:29.doing. We are inviting business and industry to advise where that money
:06:30. > :06:34.is best spent. That's very different from government deciding that a
:06:35. > :06:39.particular technology is for the future. The government's chief
:06:40. > :06:45.scientific adviser has determined that we will invest a huge amount in
:06:46. > :06:50.battery technology, which should benefit the electric car industry,
:06:51. > :06:57.and... This is taxpayers' money. Who gets it? Ultimately, business will
:06:58. > :07:02.get it, but often only when there is a considerable amount of private
:07:03. > :07:10.sector finance also drawn in. But who is held to account? Various
:07:11. > :07:14.government departments at local authorities will hold this list to
:07:15. > :07:21.account. A lot of it is about releasing private capital as well.
:07:22. > :07:28.Thank you very much. This week, the Supreme Court, I think we know the
:07:29. > :07:32.ruling is coming on Tuesday. And the expectation is that the judges will
:07:33. > :07:38.say Parliament will have to vote to trigger. Is this all much ado about
:07:39. > :07:41.nothing? Parliament will vote to trigger, and the government will win
:07:42. > :07:45.in the Lords and the Commons by substantial majorities, and it will
:07:46. > :07:50.be triggered? Completely. We've known that. Parliament is voted.
:07:51. > :07:54.Everyone is pretty confident that the Supreme Court will uphold the
:07:55. > :08:03.High Court's decision and say it has to go to MPs. There will be a bit of
:08:04. > :08:09.toing and froing among MPs on amendments. You heard Diane Abbott's
:08:10. > :08:13.slightly car crash interview there. The Lib Dems may throw something in,
:08:14. > :08:20.but we will trigger Article 50 by the end of March. If it also says
:08:21. > :08:25.that the roll of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast should be picked up,
:08:26. > :08:29.that could complicate matters. Absolutely. That could delay the
:08:30. > :08:33.planned triggering of Article 50 before the end of March. Not what
:08:34. > :08:38.they say about the Westminster Parliament, because it is clear that
:08:39. > :08:43.it was. I never understood the furore about that original judgment,
:08:44. > :08:48.because every MP made it clear they wouldn't block it. Even though Diane
:08:49. > :08:53.Abbott was evasive on several fronts, she said they wouldn't block
:08:54. > :08:58.it. You are right, if they give a vote, or give some authorisation for
:08:59. > :09:02.the Scottish Parliament and other devolved assemblies, that might
:09:03. > :09:08.delay the whole sequence. That is the only significant thing to watch
:09:09. > :09:13.out for. Watch out on Tuesday. Mrs May goes to Washington. It will be
:09:14. > :09:18.another movie in the making! I would suggest that she has a tricky line
:09:19. > :09:23.to follow. She has got to be seen to be taking advantage of the fact that
:09:24. > :09:28.there is a very pro-British, pro-Brexit president in the Oval
:09:29. > :09:33.Office, who I am told is prepared to expend political capital on this.
:09:34. > :09:45.But on the other hand, to make sure that she is not what we used to call
:09:46. > :09:49.Mr Blair, George Bush's poodle. It is very difficult, and who would not
:09:50. > :09:52.want to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! I can't think of anyone in
:09:53. > :09:58.the world who would despise Mr Trump more than Mrs May, and for him, he
:09:59. > :10:08.dislikes any woman who does not look like a supermodel, no disrespected
:10:09. > :10:12.Mrs May. Most of it is actually anti-EU, and I think we should
:10:13. > :10:17.capitalise it. Let's get the Queen to earn her money, roll out the red
:10:18. > :10:24.carpet, invite him to dinner, spend the night, what ever we need...
:10:25. > :10:29.Trump at Balmoral! Here is the issue, because the agenda is, as we
:10:30. > :10:34.heard from Ted Malloch earlier, that this is not an administration that
:10:35. > :10:37.has much time for the EU, EU integration or Germany. I think
:10:38. > :10:43.Germany will be the second biggest loser to begin with. They will not
:10:44. > :10:51.even give a date for Angela Merkel to meet the president. This is an
:10:52. > :10:59.opportunity for Mrs May... It is a huge. It could sideline talks of the
:11:00. > :11:06.punishment beating from Germany. The Trump presidency has completely
:11:07. > :11:09.changed the field on Brexit. Along came Donald Trump, and Theresa May
:11:10. > :11:15.has this incredible opportunity here. Not of her making, but she has
:11:16. > :11:21.played her cards well. To an officially be the EU emissary to
:11:22. > :11:26.Washington, to get some sort of broker going. That gives us huge
:11:27. > :11:30.extra leveraged in the Brexit negotiations. People around the
:11:31. > :11:34.world think Germany as a currency manipulator, that it is benefiting
:11:35. > :11:39.from an underpriced euro, hence the huge surplus it runs of America, and
:11:40. > :11:44.they think it is disgraceful that a country that runs a massive budget
:11:45. > :11:49.surplus spends only 1.2% of its GDP on defence, and America runs a
:11:50. > :11:55.massive deficit and needs to spend a lot more. He's going for Germany.
:11:56. > :12:00.And what a massive shift. I think Obama was quite open, in a farewell
:12:01. > :12:05.interview, that he felt closer to Merkel than any other European
:12:06. > :12:12.leader. And Jamie kind of reflected that in our discussion. Yes, that's
:12:13. > :12:17.very interesting discussion. I think she was the last person he spoke to
:12:18. > :12:23.in the White House, Obama. And now you are getting the onslaught from
:12:24. > :12:28.Trump. This Thatcher- Reagan imagery is dangerous, though. Blair was
:12:29. > :12:33.hypnotised by it and was too scared to criticise Bush, because he wanted
:12:34. > :12:38.to be seen in that light, and we know where that led. Cameron
:12:39. > :12:41.similarly with Obama, which presented him with problems, as
:12:42. > :12:48.Obama didn't regard him as his number one pin up in Europe. I would
:12:49. > :12:53.put a note of caution in there about the Thatcher - Reagan parallel.
:12:54. > :12:58.Everything Trump is doing now is different from before, so Mrs May
:12:59. > :13:04.should not have any of these previous relationships in her mind.
:13:05. > :13:11.That is not entirely true. Donald Trump aches to be the new Ronald
:13:12. > :13:15.Reagan. He may be impeached first! He sees her as the new Margaret
:13:16. > :13:23.Thatcher, and that may her leveraged with him. Thank you.
:13:24. > :13:28.We'll be back here at the same time next week, and you can catch up
:13:29. > :13:30.on all the latest political news on the Daily Politics,
:13:31. > :13:34.In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:35. > :14:13.It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,
:14:14. > :14:17.it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.
:14:18. > :14:20.'Alla I ddeud 'tha chi bod "man flu" yn bodoli.