:01:09. > :01:17.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven
:01:18. > :01:19.Should Wales follow Finland's lead and give
:01:20. > :01:21.people a monthly income, no strings attached?
:01:22. > :01:23.And what should Labour do about Brexit ahead of this
:01:24. > :01:27.Should she have spoken out more strongly?
:01:28. > :01:30.We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage
:01:31. > :01:32.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's
:01:33. > :01:35.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:01:36. > :01:37.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze
:01:38. > :01:39.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.
:01:40. > :01:41.And with me, the best and brightest political
:01:42. > :01:43.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia
:01:44. > :01:45.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:46. > :01:48.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that
:01:49. > :01:51.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven
:01:52. > :01:57.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,
:01:58. > :02:00.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from
:02:01. > :02:05.where refugees are banned from until further notice.
:02:06. > :02:07.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban
:02:08. > :02:13.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.
:02:14. > :02:16.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out
:02:17. > :02:25.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,
:02:26. > :02:27.as people affected and already in the air were detained
:02:28. > :02:31.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many
:02:32. > :02:37.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked
:02:38. > :02:42.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...
:02:43. > :02:44.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'
:02:45. > :02:50.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy
:02:51. > :02:53.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number
:02:54. > :02:56.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.
:02:57. > :03:11.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:
:03:12. > :03:13.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why
:03:14. > :03:16.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's
:03:17. > :03:22.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip
:03:23. > :03:26.She wants to see the evidence, she wants
:03:27. > :03:31.to understand precisely what the implications are.
:03:32. > :03:33.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with
:03:34. > :03:37.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and
:03:38. > :03:41.understand it, and then will respond to that.
:03:42. > :03:43.I think there are times where, you know, there's always
:03:44. > :03:46.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.
:03:47. > :03:49.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it
:03:50. > :03:53.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative
:03:54. > :04:05.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more
:04:06. > :04:13.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David
:04:14. > :04:17.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an
:04:18. > :04:21.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I
:04:22. > :04:28.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects
:04:29. > :04:32.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it
:04:33. > :04:38.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with
:04:39. > :04:42.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but
:04:43. > :04:47.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism
:04:48. > :04:52.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in
:04:53. > :04:55.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street
:04:56. > :04:58.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have
:04:59. > :05:03.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of
:05:04. > :05:07.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,
:05:08. > :05:10.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I
:05:11. > :05:14.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the
:05:15. > :05:20.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address
:05:21. > :05:23.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the
:05:24. > :05:31.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you
:05:32. > :05:35.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is
:05:36. > :05:38.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she
:05:39. > :05:41.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would
:05:42. > :05:44.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald
:05:45. > :05:47.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to
:05:48. > :05:52.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with
:05:53. > :05:55.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would
:05:56. > :05:59.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day
:06:00. > :06:05.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority
:06:06. > :06:11.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the
:06:12. > :06:15.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this
:06:16. > :06:21.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is
:06:22. > :06:25.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through
:06:26. > :06:28.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.
:06:29. > :06:33.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can
:06:34. > :06:38.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already
:06:39. > :06:43.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach
:06:44. > :06:47.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by
:06:48. > :07:00.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?
:07:01. > :07:06.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by
:07:07. > :07:10.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are
:07:11. > :07:13.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by
:07:14. > :07:17.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only
:07:18. > :07:20.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it
:07:21. > :07:25.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do
:07:26. > :07:31.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is
:07:32. > :07:34.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work
:07:35. > :07:39.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was
:07:40. > :07:41.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our
:07:42. > :07:47.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is
:07:48. > :07:51.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate
:07:52. > :07:56.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,
:07:57. > :07:59.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,
:08:00. > :08:02.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a
:08:03. > :08:09.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of
:08:10. > :08:11.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the
:08:12. > :08:16.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I
:08:17. > :08:22.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have
:08:23. > :08:26.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a
:08:27. > :08:29.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am
:08:30. > :08:32.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege
:08:33. > :08:38.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places
:08:39. > :08:41.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the
:08:42. > :08:51.right place. Thank you for joining us.
:08:52. > :08:57.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald
:08:58. > :09:02.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,
:09:03. > :09:06.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going
:09:07. > :09:12.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on
:09:13. > :09:16.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa
:09:17. > :09:22.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time
:09:23. > :09:27.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.
:09:28. > :09:35.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and
:09:36. > :09:40.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying
:09:41. > :09:44.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing
:09:45. > :09:48.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going
:09:49. > :09:50.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's
:09:51. > :09:56.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It
:09:57. > :10:01.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special
:10:02. > :10:04.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven
:10:05. > :10:10.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.
:10:11. > :10:14.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for
:10:15. > :10:18.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what
:10:19. > :10:23.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why
:10:24. > :10:27.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has
:10:28. > :10:32.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was
:10:33. > :10:38.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real
:10:39. > :10:41.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the
:10:42. > :10:46.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a
:10:47. > :10:51.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day
:10:52. > :10:57.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,
:10:58. > :11:01.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.
:11:02. > :11:04.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in
:11:05. > :11:12.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with
:11:13. > :11:16.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned
:11:17. > :11:21.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not
:11:22. > :11:25.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in
:11:26. > :11:28.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal
:11:29. > :11:37.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It
:11:38. > :11:43.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge
:11:44. > :11:47.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue
:11:48. > :11:53.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree
:11:54. > :11:57.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa
:11:58. > :12:03.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is
:12:04. > :12:08.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is
:12:09. > :12:13.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with
:12:14. > :12:18.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time
:12:19. > :12:22.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee
:12:23. > :12:28.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as
:12:29. > :12:32.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this
:12:33. > :12:37.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she
:12:38. > :12:40.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.
:12:41. > :12:45.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does
:12:46. > :12:49.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her
:12:50. > :12:53.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical
:12:54. > :12:58.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in
:12:59. > :13:03.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.
:13:04. > :13:05.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless
:13:06. > :13:10.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for
:13:11. > :13:13.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't
:13:14. > :13:17.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via
:13:18. > :13:22.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible
:13:23. > :13:26.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than
:13:27. > :13:31.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with
:13:32. > :13:34.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of
:13:35. > :13:38.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is
:13:39. > :13:44.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't
:13:45. > :13:46.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky
:13:47. > :13:50.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first
:13:51. > :13:53.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit
:13:54. > :13:55.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,
:13:56. > :13:58.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States
:13:59. > :14:00.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated
:14:01. > :14:02.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"
:14:03. > :14:04.but might not have intended to be pictured walking
:14:05. > :14:06.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping
:14:07. > :14:10.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade
:14:11. > :14:13.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President
:14:14. > :14:22.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister
:14:23. > :14:25.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries
:14:26. > :14:29.increased their defence spending It's been announced
:14:30. > :14:35.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,
:14:36. > :14:36.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead
:14:37. > :14:42.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as
:14:43. > :14:46.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's
:14:47. > :14:49.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear
:14:50. > :14:51.to Donald Trump her continued
:14:52. > :14:57.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over
:14:58. > :15:00.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer
:15:01. > :15:02.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues
:15:03. > :15:06.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former
:15:07. > :15:22.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's
:15:23. > :15:26.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the
:15:27. > :15:30.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which
:15:31. > :15:34.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He
:15:35. > :15:38.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to
:15:39. > :15:46.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven
:15:47. > :15:52.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if
:15:53. > :15:58.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just
:15:59. > :16:02.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela
:16:03. > :16:08.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,
:16:09. > :16:11.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all
:16:12. > :16:17.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria
:16:18. > :16:21.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in
:16:22. > :16:25.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have
:16:26. > :16:30.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of
:16:31. > :16:35.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of
:16:36. > :16:39.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But
:16:40. > :16:43.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you
:16:44. > :16:47.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing
:16:48. > :16:54.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees
:16:55. > :17:02.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.
:17:03. > :17:06.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those
:17:07. > :17:11.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's
:17:12. > :17:16.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is
:17:17. > :17:19.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this
:17:20. > :17:28.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any
:17:29. > :17:33.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have
:17:34. > :17:38.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have
:17:39. > :17:43.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why
:17:44. > :17:46.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people
:17:47. > :17:50.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into
:17:51. > :17:55.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not
:17:56. > :17:59.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening
:18:00. > :18:04.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with
:18:05. > :18:09.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to
:18:10. > :18:12.America, they then go through biometric screening, database
:18:13. > :18:23.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence
:18:24. > :18:31.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It
:18:32. > :18:35.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we
:18:36. > :18:37.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald
:18:38. > :18:44.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and
:18:45. > :18:47.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned
:18:48. > :18:53.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since
:18:54. > :18:59.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing
:19:00. > :19:03.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not
:19:04. > :19:06.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you
:19:07. > :19:13.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,
:19:14. > :19:16.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in
:19:17. > :19:20.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say
:19:21. > :19:23.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the
:19:24. > :19:27.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made
:19:28. > :19:32.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about
:19:33. > :19:39.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him
:19:40. > :19:43.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you
:19:44. > :19:47.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total
:19:48. > :19:52.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that
:19:53. > :19:56.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be
:19:57. > :20:04.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We
:20:05. > :20:09.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What
:20:10. > :20:16.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa
:20:17. > :20:19.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the
:20:20. > :20:23.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been
:20:24. > :20:29.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who
:20:30. > :20:32.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make
:20:33. > :20:36.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can
:20:37. > :20:40.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister
:20:41. > :20:46.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally
:20:47. > :20:51.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial
:20:52. > :20:55.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building
:20:56. > :21:00.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking
:21:01. > :21:05.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is
:21:06. > :21:10.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke
:21:11. > :21:14.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it
:21:15. > :21:18.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the
:21:19. > :21:22.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I
:21:23. > :21:25.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in
:21:26. > :21:30.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato
:21:31. > :21:36.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there
:21:37. > :21:41.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the
:21:42. > :21:44.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms
:21:45. > :21:52.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good
:21:53. > :21:56.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying
:21:57. > :22:01.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control
:22:02. > :22:04.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good
:22:05. > :22:09.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I
:22:10. > :22:12.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying
:22:13. > :22:19.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have
:22:20. > :22:22.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can
:22:23. > :22:27.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a
:22:28. > :22:30.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French
:22:31. > :22:36.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I
:22:37. > :22:39.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress
:22:40. > :22:45.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.
:22:46. > :22:50.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say
:22:51. > :22:53.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough
:22:54. > :22:59.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a
:23:00. > :23:03.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot
:23:04. > :23:09.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,
:23:10. > :23:13.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,
:23:14. > :23:18.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until
:23:19. > :23:22.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will
:23:23. > :23:26.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and
:23:27. > :23:30.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that
:23:31. > :23:35.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the
:23:36. > :23:39.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you
:23:40. > :23:43.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.
:23:44. > :23:48.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you
:23:49. > :23:52.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any
:23:53. > :23:58.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,
:23:59. > :24:01.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip
:24:02. > :24:06.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,
:24:07. > :24:11.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and
:24:12. > :24:15.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that
:24:16. > :24:18.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen
:24:19. > :24:23.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the
:24:24. > :24:28.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over
:24:29. > :24:33.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition
:24:34. > :24:37.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's
:24:38. > :24:42.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of
:24:43. > :24:48.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to
:24:49. > :24:57.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.
:24:58. > :25:01.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,
:25:02. > :25:05.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always
:25:06. > :25:12.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't
:25:13. > :25:17.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it
:25:18. > :25:21.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and
:25:22. > :25:23.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for
:25:24. > :25:25.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,
:25:26. > :25:27.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:25:28. > :25:29.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll
:25:30. > :25:38.be talking to our political panel. Hello and welcome to
:25:39. > :25:41.the Sunday Politics Wales. He's not a politician,
:25:42. > :25:46.not officially at least, but in his last interview
:25:47. > :25:48.as Archbishop, Barry Morgan tells us why the Church needs
:25:49. > :25:52.to speak out on politics. And after Jo Stevens'
:25:53. > :25:54.resignation, what should Labour A senior Labour frontbencher
:25:55. > :26:00.will be here to tell us. But first how would you feel
:26:01. > :26:03.about getting a wad of money every Ministers in Wales say giving
:26:04. > :26:07.everyone a guaranteed minimum income could help tackle
:26:08. > :26:11.poverty and inequality. Others say it would be
:26:12. > :26:12.far too expensive. Should every citizen receive
:26:13. > :26:19.an automatic basic income to spend however they want,
:26:20. > :26:22.no strings attached? It isn't a new question
:26:23. > :26:24.and philosophers have debated it The policy does have fresh support
:26:25. > :26:30.from the left and the right and here in Wales,
:26:31. > :26:32.the Finance Secretary recently It is an idea with
:26:33. > :26:40.considerable roots in our Always struggled to manage
:26:41. > :26:44.to find a practical way of taking it forward but it is
:26:45. > :26:48.an opportunity for us in Wales, to watch what is being attempted
:26:49. > :26:51.elsewhere and to see whether we can do anything practical
:26:52. > :26:56.with the idea ourselves. It isn't clear if or how
:26:57. > :26:58.the Welsh Government could introduce a universal basic income
:26:59. > :27:04.but Mark Drakeford says he will keep an eye on developments in Scotland
:27:05. > :27:07.where there are efforts to launch The initiative has
:27:08. > :27:10.cross-party support and the backing of
:27:11. > :27:15.the RSA think tank. It explains a basic income
:27:16. > :27:17.would be paid to everyone, regardless of whether they work
:27:18. > :27:20.or not and so there is an extra incentive for unemployed people
:27:21. > :27:24.to find a job as they wouldn't have to worry about losing benefits,
:27:25. > :27:29.as happens under the current system. With a basic income,
:27:30. > :27:32.moving from a system where you weren't working into one
:27:33. > :27:34.you were, you will You retain your consistent payment
:27:35. > :27:51.throughout that period. You are given the security to be
:27:52. > :27:55.able to choose to work and also actually to be able to choose
:27:56. > :27:58.work or training and set up your own In a way that is more beneficial
:27:59. > :28:02.to you, rather than one Universal basic income has
:28:03. > :28:05.already been trialled in a number of countries including
:28:06. > :28:07.Brazil, India and the Netherlands and on the 1st of January this year,
:28:08. > :28:10.Finland launched its own 2,000 unemployed people have been
:28:11. > :28:16.picked at random to take part and they will each receive 560 euros
:28:17. > :28:19.a month for the next two years, replacing money they
:28:20. > :28:23.already get in benefits. And to put that figure into some
:28:24. > :28:25.kind of context, the average private sector salary
:28:26. > :28:28.in Finland is 3,500 euros a month. The scheme is managed by the agency
:28:29. > :28:31.responsible for administering social The biggest response
:28:32. > :28:36.from the big group of The biggest question has
:28:37. > :28:48.been, is this for real? I can keep this 560 euros and then
:28:49. > :28:52.take on a job and keep the earnings So this does not reduce my social
:28:53. > :28:56.security and it is basically income. That is one response,
:28:57. > :29:00.a very positive one. Critics say handing out
:29:01. > :29:03.regular, unconditional payments to everyone could encourage
:29:04. > :29:05.laziness and boost immigration. This is not a workable
:29:06. > :29:17.scheme because it is It creates a tremendous tax
:29:18. > :29:20.and disincentive for the average person further up
:29:21. > :29:23.the income scale who is paying taxes Mark Drakeford has said he thinks
:29:24. > :29:27.this is an attractive idea. It is quite worrying for Wales
:29:28. > :29:33.because it is very expensive and if Wales did it on its own it is going
:29:34. > :29:36.to be very expensive. Now, we are used to
:29:37. > :29:39.the communist state north of Hadrian's Wall but I'm hoping Wales
:29:40. > :29:44.won't go the same way towards this sort of extremely expensive
:29:45. > :29:49.socialist experiment. The UK Government
:29:50. > :29:51.rejected the idea last year, describing universal basic
:29:52. > :29:54.income as unaffordable. Mark Drakeford meanwhile
:29:55. > :29:57.accepts securing public support for the scheme
:29:58. > :30:01.would be a challenge in light of negative tabloid
:30:02. > :30:08.headlines in Scotland. This afternoon a special service
:30:09. > :30:11.will be held for the retiring Barry Morgan is the longest serving
:30:12. > :30:15.Archbishop in the Anglican Church, and he's never been afraid
:30:16. > :30:17.to intervene in politics, He's busy today, of course,
:30:18. > :30:23.so Felicity Evans spoke to him a few days ago,
:30:24. > :30:26.when she asked whether having the Church interfere
:30:27. > :30:31.in politics was appropriate. Some people, of course,
:30:32. > :30:32.Christians among them, think that the Christian faith only
:30:33. > :30:35.has to do with going to church, saying your prayers
:30:36. > :30:39.and reading your Bible. They haven't looked very
:30:40. > :30:41.carefully at the Bible because it has a great deal to say
:30:42. > :30:44.about justice, a great deal to say about poverty and both the prophets
:30:45. > :30:49.and Jesus said, it's no good just offering me worship unless you live
:30:50. > :30:54.justly, if you don't take care of the poor,
:30:55. > :30:58.if you don't look after refugees. Have you ever come out on a side
:30:59. > :31:09.at some point and in retrospect thought, actually, I got that wrong
:31:10. > :31:12.and I shouldn't have said that? I was on the wrong
:31:13. > :31:15.side of the argument? There were some people who thought
:31:16. > :31:17.I was wrong to come out over the deemed consent about organ
:31:18. > :31:20.donation and the Welsh Government. I still believe that it was right
:31:21. > :31:23.for the Church to speak as it did and I spoke on behalf
:31:24. > :31:28.of the Church in Wales and on behalf of the bishops
:31:29. > :31:31.because the clue was in the Some people misunderstood
:31:32. > :31:37.that and thought that I was against organ donation
:31:38. > :31:40.and of course, I'm certainly not. I was urging people to give organs
:31:41. > :31:47.but to do so voluntarily. What about the Syria bombing
:31:48. > :31:51.debate, when you urged MPs to vote against British military
:31:52. > :31:56.involvement in bombing in Syria? In retrospect, having seen
:31:57. > :31:58.the suffering inflicted upon civilian populations
:31:59. > :32:00.across Syria by government and Russian bombing campaigns,
:32:01. > :32:01.do you regret that Well, I'm not sure that
:32:02. > :32:14.people listen to any advice that comes from
:32:15. > :32:16.the episcopal bench anyway. You must have assumed
:32:17. > :32:20.you had influence or you wouldn't have
:32:21. > :32:22.said it, surely? Well, I'm speaking to my own
:32:23. > :32:25.constituency and getting people to think about some
:32:26. > :32:27.of the moral issues. I mean, our record in Iraq
:32:28. > :32:30.and Afghanistan is not a happy one And when you look at the walls
:32:31. > :32:39.of Llandaff Cathedral you see that we have been
:32:40. > :32:41.involved in Afghanistan for a couple of hundred years and it has
:32:42. > :32:46.always ended in tears. There is no kind of
:32:47. > :32:49.right answer, is there? I just wish the situation
:32:50. > :32:52.in Syria is not as it is but perhaps if we had gone in,
:32:53. > :32:56.it might even be worse. What was your biggest
:32:57. > :32:59.challenge, do you think, on taking up the position
:33:00. > :33:02.of Archbishop of Wales? I don't know if I've thought of it
:33:03. > :33:09.in terms of challenges like that. You know, you deal with
:33:10. > :33:11.things from day-to-day So certainly I think it didn't make
:33:12. > :33:20.any sense at all for women to be ordained to the diaconate
:33:21. > :33:23.and to the priesthood and not to be ordained to the episcopate
:33:24. > :33:25.because there are three orders I think that was pretty important
:33:26. > :33:32.as a matter of justice, as a matter of equality and as a matter
:33:33. > :33:40.of doing what was right, really. We have a resurgent Russia,
:33:41. > :33:43.we have the crisis in Syria and the wider Middle East,
:33:44. > :33:45.we have President Trump, What is your assessment
:33:46. > :33:51.of the direction that we are heading in and
:33:52. > :33:58.Wales's place in it? I think all the Church can do is be
:33:59. > :34:02.with people as they wrestle with these issues and give
:34:03. > :34:08.some kind of moral lead. I'm leaving, as you say,
:34:09. > :34:11.and it is no longer my job to I will have my private
:34:12. > :34:18.views but I think I shall It's been another week of high drama
:34:19. > :34:27.on the Brexit front, but much of the focus has
:34:28. > :34:31.been on Labour. The Shadow Welsh Secretary Jo
:34:32. > :34:33.Stevens resigned on Friday over being forced to support triggering
:34:34. > :34:37.Article 50. The Shadow Solicitor General and MP
:34:38. > :34:54.for Torfaen, Nick Thomas-Simmonds, Good morning and thanks for coming
:34:55. > :34:58.in. First of all, on the point about Jo Stevens and whether you think
:34:59. > :35:03.more of your fellow Labour MPs will follow, is that what you expect?
:35:04. > :35:07.Not necessarily. In respect of Jo Stevens, I think she was if a
:35:08. > :35:15.drastic shadow were said and she has a great future in the party. Our
:35:16. > :35:21.position is to respect the result of the referendum. It was the highest
:35:22. > :35:25.national turnout since 1992. My constituency, Wales and the UK all
:35:26. > :35:29.voted to leave. I think there is a crucial point here. Going around the
:35:30. > :35:33.doors in the referendum I got the sense of people saying they didn't
:35:34. > :35:37.feel politicians listened to them. I think it would be a mistake not to
:35:38. > :35:42.listen to the result of the referendum, that would further
:35:43. > :35:44.exacerbate the alienation in politics.
:35:45. > :35:51.Is the difficulty for you and the Labour Party that around two thirds
:35:52. > :35:54.of Labour Party members work for remain, but two thirds of Labour
:35:55. > :36:00.constituencies were four leaf and to try to bring those things together
:36:01. > :36:03.was almost impossible? -- were in favour of leaving.
:36:04. > :36:10.The results are therefore everyone to see in various constituencies.
:36:11. > :36:14.What unites us is the post Brexit Britain we want to see and in the
:36:15. > :36:17.House of Commons we will see in above amendments by the Labour Party
:36:18. > :36:23.to shape post Brexit Britain, maintaining the environmental
:36:24. > :36:28.protections, workers' rights, trying to secure tariff free access to the
:36:29. > :36:32.single market which is crucial to Wales because 60% of our exports go
:36:33. > :36:38.to the EU and we need to ensure that we don't become some giant tax
:36:39. > :36:43.haven. Coming onto those details in a
:36:44. > :36:48.minute. Just on the Labour and Jeremy Corbyn issue. Was he right,
:36:49. > :36:53.considering this is a huge issue for all Labour MPs, to use its three
:36:54. > :36:56.line whip to say you must vote this way?
:36:57. > :36:59.I think we need to be understanding about colleagues who take a
:37:00. > :37:03.particular view because they have to. I do think it was very important
:37:04. > :37:06.we sent out a signal that we respected the result of the
:37:07. > :37:13.referendum. That is exactly what we are doing. We are now fighting to
:37:14. > :37:20.protect jobs... Does that mean those Labour MPs who
:37:21. > :37:23.don't vote to trigger Article 50 are not respecting the overall result,
:37:24. > :37:28.such as Jo Stevens? What every MP has to do is look at
:37:29. > :37:32.the conflicting issues, like all MPs do before they vote in the House of
:37:33. > :37:36.Commons. Looking at their constituency and broader concerns
:37:37. > :37:41.and what they judge best. This is a quite unprecedented situation and I
:37:42. > :37:45.am sympathetic to colleagues who take a different view. Over the next
:37:46. > :37:50.few weeks with the amendments being put down we will be fighting for the
:37:51. > :37:54.kind of post Brexit Britain, a fair one that we want to see.
:37:55. > :37:59.How local are you that over the next couple of weeks there will be
:38:00. > :38:04.discussions about triggering Article 50 and it will be more broadbrush.
:38:05. > :38:08.How confident are you that there will be a settled well in the House
:38:09. > :38:15.of Commons that Labour MPs and surgeon Conservative MPs will have a
:38:16. > :38:20.settled view on these votes? -- and surgeon Conservative MPs? I
:38:21. > :38:24.don't know if we will until we see where the conversation is going
:38:25. > :38:29.forward. We will do all we can to shape Brexit going forward but it is
:38:30. > :38:32.the government that is doing the negotiation and people did not vote
:38:33. > :38:37.to become poorer and it is for the government to carry out that
:38:38. > :38:40.instruction from the public in a way that doesn't make Briton Laura.
:38:41. > :38:48.They will be judged upon that. I guess on that point the government
:38:49. > :38:51.won't want to have... You wouldn't want to see tightening of the
:38:52. > :38:55.wriggle room you can give Theresa May because by doing that you are
:38:56. > :39:00.handing the negotiation position by those dashed to those other EU
:39:01. > :39:04.countries. I used to be a lawyer and mediator.
:39:05. > :39:12.Nobody is suggesting you hand over the details of negotiation before.
:39:13. > :39:19.We don't want Britain as an island tax haven... We need to be straight
:39:20. > :39:23.on the trade-offs going forward. Immediately that cuts away to May's
:39:24. > :39:29.last option because she has said she is willing to walk away and have low
:39:30. > :39:32.tax, low regulation. You are immediately saying you can't have
:39:33. > :39:36.that. What I'm absolutely saying is the
:39:37. > :39:40.kind of nightmarish vision she is talking about, this bargain basement
:39:41. > :39:46.Britain, where we would be competing to be a tax haven with the single
:39:47. > :39:51.market would be a disaster. That doesn't cut away any of her
:39:52. > :39:56.negotiating strength. Who would see that as an option to make the
:39:57. > :40:02.country stronger? She needs to be held to account.
:40:03. > :40:06.File with that sort of manifest itself over the next couple of
:40:07. > :40:09.weeks? What kind of votes do you think we can see coming forward from
:40:10. > :40:14.the Labour Party? You will see amendments on workers'
:40:15. > :40:18.rights, environmental rights, consumer protection, a broader
:40:19. > :40:23.amendment on post Brexit Britain, including tariff free access to the
:40:24. > :40:25.single market, which is vital, but also an anti-tax avoidance amendment
:40:26. > :40:27.to avoid is becoming a tax haven. Another big political week ahead -
:40:28. > :40:30.we'll be back to talk about it We're @walespolitics on Twitter,
:40:31. > :40:39.but for now that's all from me. Welcome back and let's get back
:40:40. > :40:43.to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven
:40:44. > :40:49.mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,
:40:50. > :40:52.Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK
:40:53. > :41:05.should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong
:41:06. > :41:10.for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be
:41:11. > :41:14.challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should
:41:15. > :41:18.come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.
:41:19. > :41:23.Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long
:41:24. > :41:28.term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going
:41:29. > :41:34.to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be
:41:35. > :41:38.anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe
:41:39. > :41:42.territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until
:41:43. > :41:47.summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people
:41:48. > :41:51.coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees
:41:52. > :41:55.from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on
:41:56. > :42:01.Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in
:42:02. > :42:05.mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world
:42:06. > :42:08.that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when
:42:09. > :42:14.it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the
:42:15. > :42:19.civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500
:42:20. > :42:28.Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a
:42:29. > :42:31.hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,
:42:32. > :42:37.although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is
:42:38. > :42:41.discovering that being a president is different from being a business
:42:42. > :42:44.man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a
:42:45. > :42:50.backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss
:42:51. > :42:54.with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,
:42:55. > :42:58.and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial
:42:59. > :43:03.ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any
:43:04. > :43:08.opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the
:43:09. > :43:13.streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an
:43:14. > :43:17.international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit
:43:18. > :43:20.are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have
:43:21. > :43:24.suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you
:43:25. > :43:29.have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal
:43:30. > :43:35.Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who
:43:36. > :43:42.would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one
:43:43. > :43:46.subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in
:43:47. > :43:50.front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.
:43:51. > :43:53.Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played
:43:54. > :43:57.host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we
:43:58. > :44:03.have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how
:44:04. > :44:07.serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often
:44:08. > :44:14.are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still
:44:15. > :44:17.won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place
:44:18. > :44:21.in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the
:44:22. > :44:27.opposite the next day. Brown did the same.
:44:28. > :44:36.Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide
:44:37. > :44:39.because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on
:44:40. > :44:44.the major government, even though their position on the single
:44:45. > :44:49.currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of
:44:50. > :44:53.leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to
:44:54. > :44:57.dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over
:44:58. > :45:01.Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,
:45:02. > :45:06.but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in
:45:07. > :45:12.danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political
:45:13. > :45:15.conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we
:45:16. > :45:20.are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that
:45:21. > :45:24.vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would
:45:25. > :45:28.have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece
:45:29. > :45:35.of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial
:45:36. > :45:39.world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to
:45:40. > :45:43.worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the
:45:44. > :45:47.legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a
:45:48. > :45:53.big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year
:45:54. > :45:56.is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely
:45:57. > :46:01.hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an
:46:02. > :46:05.incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you
:46:06. > :46:10.politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've
:46:11. > :46:14.already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You
:46:15. > :46:19.have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to
:46:20. > :46:24.stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,
:46:25. > :46:28.and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we
:46:29. > :46:32.have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if
:46:33. > :46:35.it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will
:46:36. > :46:40.be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said
:46:41. > :46:46.regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU
:46:47. > :46:52.citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get
:46:53. > :46:58.through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all
:46:59. > :47:03.know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it
:47:04. > :47:07.won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with
:47:08. > :47:11.those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but
:47:12. > :47:16.the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's
:47:17. > :47:20.already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU
:47:21. > :47:25.governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit
:47:26. > :47:28.for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it
:47:29. > :47:33.through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey
:47:34. > :47:37.through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has
:47:38. > :47:43.been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there
:47:44. > :47:49.will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of
:47:50. > :47:55.the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and
:47:56. > :47:59.see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means
:48:00. > :48:04.unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s
:48:05. > :48:12.when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony
:48:13. > :48:18.Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in
:48:19. > :48:24.or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.
:48:25. > :48:26.But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this
:48:27. > :48:28.week. The Daily Politics is back
:48:29. > :48:32.tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here
:48:33. > :48:35.on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:48:36. > :48:41.it's the Sunday Politics.