19/03/2017

:00:33. > :00:35.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36. > :00:39.She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:40. > :00:52.After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:53. > :00:54.With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:55. > :00:59.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:01:00. > :01:02.NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:03. > :01:06.impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:07. > :01:09.unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:10. > :01:14.Later in the programme. Providers joins me live.

:01:15. > :01:16.A stark warning from the First Minister unless there's

:01:17. > :01:19.clarity over who does what after Brexit.

:01:20. > :01:24.And the Tory leader in Wales, after a tricky week for the party.

:01:25. > :01:35.All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

:01:36. > :01:37.to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

:01:38. > :01:39.from his party's spring conference in York.

:01:40. > :01:44.With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

:01:45. > :01:46.three of the country's top political commentators:

:01:47. > :01:52.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:53. > :01:53.They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

:01:54. > :01:57.So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

:01:58. > :02:02.As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

:02:03. > :02:06.the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

:02:07. > :02:10.on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

:02:11. > :02:13.to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

:02:14. > :02:18.budget measure just one week after announcing it.

:02:19. > :02:20.Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

:02:21. > :02:37.Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

:02:38. > :02:38.Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

:02:39. > :02:41.She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

:02:42. > :02:46.By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

:02:47. > :02:48.future will be decided, not just by me, the

:02:49. > :02:49.Scottish Government, or the

:02:50. > :02:51.SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

:02:52. > :03:01.Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

:03:02. > :03:05.amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

:03:06. > :03:19.The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

:03:20. > :03:21.attempts to change it and it becomes law.

:03:22. > :03:28.But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

:03:29. > :03:30.Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

:03:31. > :03:47.We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

:03:48. > :03:48.We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

:03:49. > :04:00.the planned rise in National Insurance for

:04:01. > :04:01.the self-employed announced the budget.

:04:02. > :04:03.It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

:04:04. > :04:05.The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

:04:06. > :04:08.We will bring forward further proposals

:04:09. > :04:11.but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

:04:12. > :04:15.It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

:04:16. > :04:18.By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

:04:19. > :04:21.fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

:04:22. > :04:31.Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

:04:32. > :04:33.Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

:04:34. > :04:36.But that's not what the Prime Minister

:04:37. > :04:42.Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

:04:43. > :04:47.We should be working together, not pulling apart.

:04:48. > :04:49.We should be working together to get that

:04:50. > :04:50.right deal for Scotland, that

:04:51. > :04:55.So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

:04:56. > :04:59.so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

:05:00. > :05:01.Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

:05:02. > :05:03.SNP activists at their spring conference

:05:04. > :05:13.Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

:05:14. > :05:17.promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

:05:18. > :05:19.At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

:05:20. > :05:26.I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

:05:27. > :05:28.Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

:05:29. > :05:30.big issues in our world what

:05:31. > :05:35.good analysis, great news journalism.

:05:36. > :05:40.It's a really important time for good journalism that The

:05:41. > :05:41.Evening Standard is going to provide.

:05:42. > :05:48.There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

:05:49. > :05:54.Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

:05:55. > :05:57.Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

:05:58. > :06:02.and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

:06:03. > :06:04.And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

:06:05. > :06:22.What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

:06:23. > :06:27.Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

:06:28. > :06:29.of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

:06:30. > :06:37.events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

:06:38. > :06:41.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

:06:42. > :06:46.periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

:06:47. > :06:51.try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

:06:52. > :06:55.Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

:06:56. > :06:59.so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

:07:00. > :07:03.the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

:07:04. > :07:07.more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

:07:08. > :07:10.drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

:07:11. > :07:15.original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

:07:16. > :07:20.quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

:07:21. > :07:23.backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

:07:24. > :07:27.funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

:07:28. > :07:32.get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

:07:33. > :07:36.Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

:07:37. > :07:41.said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

:07:42. > :07:45.Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

:07:46. > :07:50.quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

:07:51. > :07:53.frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

:07:54. > :07:57.OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

:07:58. > :08:00.already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

:08:01. > :08:05.Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

:08:06. > :08:10.for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

:08:11. > :08:13.bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

:08:14. > :08:16.time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

:08:17. > :08:23.to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

:08:24. > :08:29.Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

:08:30. > :08:35.reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

:08:36. > :08:38.over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

:08:39. > :08:42.how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

:08:43. > :08:45.not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

:08:46. > :08:49.normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

:08:50. > :08:54.mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

:08:55. > :08:57.workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

:08:58. > :09:02.call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

:09:03. > :09:06.tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

:09:07. > :09:10.second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

:09:11. > :09:13.rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

:09:14. > :09:18.week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

:09:19. > :09:23.her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

:09:24. > :09:26.expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

:09:27. > :09:32.her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

:09:33. > :09:38.66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

:09:39. > :09:42.with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

:09:43. > :09:45.referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

:09:46. > :09:48.with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

:09:49. > :09:53.calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

:09:54. > :09:57.I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

:09:58. > :10:01.desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

:10:02. > :10:05.fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

:10:06. > :10:10.opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

:10:11. > :10:15.daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

:10:16. > :10:18.think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

:10:19. > :10:21.election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

:10:22. > :10:25.manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

:10:26. > :10:31.energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

:10:32. > :10:36.the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

:10:37. > :10:39.small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

:10:40. > :10:43.Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

:10:44. > :10:48.difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

:10:49. > :10:51.going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

:10:52. > :10:55.and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

:10:56. > :10:58.is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

:10:59. > :11:01.commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

:11:02. > :11:06.they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

:11:07. > :11:09.unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

:11:10. > :11:12.she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

:11:13. > :11:16.Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

:11:17. > :11:20.early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

:11:21. > :11:25.a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

:11:26. > :11:29.box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

:11:30. > :11:33.The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

:11:34. > :11:37.replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

:11:38. > :11:41.election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

:11:42. > :11:42.you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

:11:43. > :11:44.see. So if Theresa May did go

:11:45. > :11:47.for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

:11:48. > :11:57.and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

:11:58. > :12:00.have just been talking about, executed one of the most

:12:01. > :12:04.embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

:12:05. > :12:07.torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

:12:08. > :12:12.so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

:12:13. > :12:15.early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

:12:16. > :12:19.ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

:12:20. > :12:24.we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

:12:25. > :12:30.challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

:12:31. > :12:36.for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

:12:37. > :12:39.would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

:12:40. > :12:42.want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

:12:43. > :12:46.opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

:12:47. > :12:51.better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

:12:52. > :12:56.we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

:12:57. > :13:01.in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

:13:02. > :13:05.opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

:13:06. > :13:08.government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

:13:09. > :13:12.the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

:13:13. > :13:16.seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

:13:17. > :13:20.would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

:13:21. > :13:23.be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

:13:24. > :13:27.bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

:13:28. > :13:32.British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

:13:33. > :13:36.Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

:13:37. > :13:40.General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

:13:41. > :13:44.of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

:13:45. > :13:48.early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

:13:49. > :13:52.It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

:13:53. > :13:56.dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

:13:57. > :14:00.in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

:14:01. > :14:02.opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:14:03. > :14:11.Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

:14:12. > :14:14.but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

:14:15. > :14:17.How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

:14:18. > :14:21.money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

:14:22. > :14:26.Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

:14:27. > :14:34.inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

:14:35. > :14:39.build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

:14:40. > :14:43.have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

:14:44. > :14:47.taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

:14:48. > :14:51.Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

:14:52. > :14:54.Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

:14:55. > :14:58.support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

:14:59. > :15:02.electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

:15:03. > :15:06.for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

:15:07. > :15:11.your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

:15:12. > :15:16.shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

:15:17. > :15:19.there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

:15:20. > :15:24.things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

:15:25. > :15:29.annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

:15:30. > :15:32.policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

:15:33. > :15:36.Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

:15:37. > :15:42.fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

:15:43. > :15:46.extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

:15:47. > :15:49.to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

:15:50. > :15:54.I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

:15:55. > :16:00.have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

:16:01. > :16:03.Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

:16:04. > :16:07.hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

:16:08. > :16:13.footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

:16:14. > :16:18.can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

:16:19. > :16:24.a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

:16:25. > :16:27.And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

:16:28. > :16:32.election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

:16:33. > :16:38.of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

:16:39. > :16:42.having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

:16:43. > :16:46.development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

:16:47. > :16:50.you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

:16:51. > :16:56.ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

:16:57. > :16:59.Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

:17:00. > :17:03.safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

:17:04. > :17:08.does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

:17:09. > :17:12.Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

:17:13. > :17:16.Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

:17:17. > :17:23.merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

:17:24. > :17:28.case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

:17:29. > :17:32.talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

:17:33. > :17:36.about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

:17:37. > :17:40.for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

:17:41. > :17:43.with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

:17:44. > :17:49.prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

:17:50. > :17:54.given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

:17:55. > :17:57.mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

:17:58. > :18:03.about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

:18:04. > :18:07.behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

:18:08. > :18:11.an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

:18:12. > :18:16.still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

:18:17. > :18:24.These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

:18:25. > :18:28.settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

:18:29. > :18:32.Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

:18:33. > :18:38.is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

:18:39. > :18:42.is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

:18:43. > :18:47.you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

:18:48. > :18:56.looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

:18:57. > :18:58.where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

:18:59. > :19:02.cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

:19:03. > :19:04.sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

:19:05. > :19:07.fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

:19:08. > :19:14.make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

:19:15. > :19:20.returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

:19:21. > :19:22.And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

:19:23. > :19:24.conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:19:25. > :19:33.Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

:19:34. > :19:39.Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

:19:40. > :19:47.what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

:19:48. > :19:52.saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

:19:53. > :19:56.Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

:19:57. > :20:03.what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

:20:04. > :20:09.arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

:20:10. > :20:14.supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

:20:15. > :20:19.Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

:20:20. > :20:22.ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

:20:23. > :20:27.Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

:20:28. > :20:31.isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

:20:32. > :20:37.that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

:20:38. > :20:45.to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

:20:46. > :20:51.Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

:20:52. > :20:55.nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

:20:56. > :21:01.what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

:21:02. > :21:07.interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

:21:08. > :21:11.you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

:21:12. > :21:15.the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

:21:16. > :21:20.to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

:21:21. > :21:25.in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

:21:26. > :21:31.right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

:21:32. > :21:37.have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

:21:38. > :21:42.Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

:21:43. > :21:48.view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

:21:49. > :21:54.antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

:21:55. > :21:57.aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

:21:58. > :22:04.British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

:22:05. > :22:12.choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

:22:13. > :22:16.so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

:22:17. > :22:19.harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

:22:20. > :22:24.threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

:22:25. > :22:29.ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

:22:30. > :22:38.speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

:22:39. > :22:43.challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

:22:44. > :22:47.that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

:22:48. > :22:52.conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

:22:53. > :22:57.time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

:22:58. > :23:02.realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

:23:03. > :23:09.that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

:23:10. > :23:13.realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

:23:14. > :23:19.that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

:23:20. > :23:23.recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

:23:24. > :23:27.often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

:23:28. > :23:32.we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

:23:33. > :23:40.have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

:23:41. > :23:47.Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

:23:48. > :23:55.seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

:23:56. > :23:59.for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

:24:00. > :24:02.increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

:24:03. > :24:06.because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

:24:07. > :24:13.from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

:24:14. > :24:17.on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

:24:18. > :24:21.them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

:24:22. > :24:26.parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

:24:27. > :24:30.village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

:24:31. > :24:34.inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

:24:35. > :24:45.on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

:24:46. > :24:50.ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

:24:51. > :24:55.to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

:24:56. > :25:03.thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

:25:04. > :25:07.are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

:25:08. > :25:11.referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

:25:12. > :25:15.ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

:25:16. > :25:20.unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

:25:21. > :25:31.guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

:25:32. > :25:36.British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

:25:37. > :25:41.out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

:25:42. > :25:47.will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

:25:48. > :25:51.trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

:25:52. > :25:56.that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

:25:57. > :26:01.will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

:26:02. > :26:08.this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

:26:09. > :26:12.back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

:26:13. > :26:17.thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

:26:18. > :26:23.promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

:26:24. > :26:27.glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

:26:28. > :26:31.world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

:26:32. > :26:35.years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

:26:36. > :26:40.take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

:26:41. > :26:47.quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

:26:48. > :26:54.welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

:26:55. > :26:56.certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

:26:57. > :27:03.spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

:27:04. > :27:10.spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

:27:11. > :27:18.editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

:27:19. > :27:23.feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

:27:24. > :27:28.against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

:27:29. > :27:35.again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

:27:36. > :27:39.wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

:27:40. > :27:44.the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

:27:45. > :27:50.self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

:27:51. > :27:54.a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

:27:55. > :27:58.will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

:27:59. > :28:01.Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

:28:02. > :28:03.warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

:28:04. > :28:06.But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

:28:07. > :28:08.no immediate relief, and today the head of

:28:09. > :28:10.the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

:28:11. > :28:13.of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

:28:14. > :28:15.care and planned operations, unless the Government

:28:16. > :28:22.Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

:28:23. > :28:25.Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

:28:26. > :28:30.published his plan for the future of the health service.

:28:31. > :28:33.In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

:28:34. > :28:36.would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

:28:37. > :28:39.To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

:28:40. > :28:42.from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

:28:43. > :28:45.and that the health service could account for the rest by making

:28:46. > :28:52.The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

:28:53. > :28:55.asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

:28:56. > :29:00.That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

:29:01. > :29:02.of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

:29:03. > :29:06.like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

:29:07. > :29:12.have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

:29:13. > :29:15.Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

:29:16. > :29:17.the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

:29:18. > :29:19.from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

:29:20. > :29:24.Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

:29:25. > :29:27.departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

:29:28. > :29:34.This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

:29:35. > :29:38.but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

:29:39. > :29:41.that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

:29:42. > :29:47.And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

:29:48. > :29:52.Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

:29:53. > :29:59.Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

:30:00. > :30:04.money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

:30:05. > :30:08.of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

:30:09. > :30:13.bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

:30:14. > :30:16.on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

:30:17. > :30:19.billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

:30:20. > :30:23.more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

:30:24. > :30:28.is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

:30:29. > :30:33.knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

:30:34. > :30:39.somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

:30:40. > :30:48.Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

:30:49. > :30:52.billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

:30:53. > :30:58.and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

:30:59. > :31:02.billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

:31:03. > :31:06.2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

:31:07. > :31:11.which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

:31:12. > :31:15.and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

:31:16. > :31:21.before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

:31:22. > :31:25.onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

:31:26. > :31:29.extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

:31:30. > :31:35.about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

:31:36. > :31:38.extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

:31:39. > :31:44.Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

:31:45. > :31:47.view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

:31:48. > :31:50.centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

:31:51. > :31:54.length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

:31:55. > :31:58.consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

:31:59. > :32:04.the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

:32:05. > :32:08.where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

:32:09. > :32:11.year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

:32:12. > :32:18.to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

:32:19. > :32:22.increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

:32:23. > :32:27.we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

:32:28. > :32:33.not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

:32:34. > :32:36.other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

:32:37. > :32:41.Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

:32:42. > :32:48.Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

:32:49. > :32:51.How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

:32:52. > :32:55.estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

:32:56. > :33:00.clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

:33:01. > :33:04.A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

:33:05. > :33:09.operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

:33:10. > :33:14.million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

:33:15. > :33:18.would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

:33:19. > :33:22.those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

:33:23. > :33:27.on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

:33:28. > :33:30.billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

:33:31. > :33:35.important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

:33:36. > :33:39.versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

:33:40. > :33:43.government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

:33:44. > :33:47.for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

:33:48. > :33:52.the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

:33:53. > :33:56.we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

:33:57. > :33:59.want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

:34:00. > :34:04.it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

:34:05. > :34:08.financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

:34:09. > :34:13.up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

:34:14. > :34:19.go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

:34:20. > :34:22.think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

:34:23. > :34:26.to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

:34:27. > :34:31.think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

:34:32. > :34:35.as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

:34:36. > :34:40.got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

:34:41. > :34:45.office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

:34:46. > :34:50.1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

:34:51. > :34:55.in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

:34:56. > :34:58.last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

:34:59. > :35:05.gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

:35:06. > :35:09.billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

:35:10. > :35:11.having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

:35:12. > :35:18.there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

:35:19. > :35:22.for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

:35:23. > :35:26.contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

:35:27. > :35:31.efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

:35:32. > :35:34.you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

:35:35. > :35:39.those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

:35:40. > :35:42.go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

:35:43. > :35:46.deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

:35:47. > :35:51.moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

:35:52. > :36:03.land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

:36:04. > :36:04.which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

:36:05. > :36:07.organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

:36:08. > :36:07.Have you raised that with the government?

:36:08. > :36:19.Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

:36:20. > :36:24.somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

:36:25. > :36:28.salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

:36:29. > :36:31.the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

:36:32. > :36:35.money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

:36:36. > :36:40.properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

:36:41. > :36:48.yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

:36:49. > :36:50.a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

:36:51. > :36:53.have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

:36:54. > :36:56.in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

:36:57. > :36:59.mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

:37:00. > :37:04.complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

:37:05. > :37:07.be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

:37:08. > :37:11.should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

:37:12. > :37:16.are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

:37:17. > :37:24.a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

:37:25. > :37:27.was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

:37:28. > :37:31.problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

:37:32. > :37:34.and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

:37:35. > :37:39.to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

:37:40. > :37:45.and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

:37:46. > :37:49.amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

:37:50. > :37:54.is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

:37:55. > :37:57.could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

:37:58. > :38:02.what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

:38:03. > :38:07.has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

:38:08. > :38:11.funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

:38:12. > :38:16.I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

:38:17. > :38:22.first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

:38:23. > :38:27.can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

:38:28. > :38:31.in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

:38:32. > :38:34.important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

:38:35. > :38:39.financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

:38:40. > :38:42.asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

:38:43. > :38:43.time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

:38:44. > :38:45.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:46. > :38:48.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:49. > :38:57.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.

:38:58. > :39:00.Labour veteran Jack Straw on Brexit, devolution and his party's woes,

:39:01. > :39:03.and Andrew RT Davies on how the Tories are putting this week

:39:04. > :39:13.behind them and looking to the local elections.

:39:14. > :39:15.But first more on the constitutional convention the First Minister says

:39:16. > :39:18.he wants, to discuss the future shape of the UK.

:39:19. > :39:22.When I spoke to Carwyn Jones, I asked how this was different

:39:23. > :39:28.from a similar call he made five years ago.

:39:29. > :39:31.We've got real challenges as far as the UK is concerned.

:39:32. > :39:34.And those challenges can be met in order for the UK to remain

:39:35. > :39:37.in the 21st century but we need to work out who does

:39:38. > :39:39.what when we leave the EU and so far Whitehall hasn't

:39:40. > :39:44.What we have said is, there are areas which are already

:39:45. > :39:46.the responsibility of Wales, and Scotland and Northern Ireland,

:39:47. > :39:47.there should be a joint decision-making process,

:39:48. > :39:51.we have to work out what rules there will be in the internal

:39:52. > :39:53.single market of the UK and who polices them.

:39:54. > :39:55.Not difficult but the work needs to start now.

:39:56. > :39:57.Isn't there a danger, though, you're going to be

:39:58. > :40:01.We're already seeing the SNP calling for a second

:40:02. > :40:05.The UK Government doesn't seem all that interested in your idea

:40:06. > :40:09.of constitutional Convention, you're the mercy of others.

:40:10. > :40:12.We were way ahead of the game, we recognised a long time ago

:40:13. > :40:14.what the challenges would be for the UK.

:40:15. > :40:21.It is up to Whitehall whether it listens enough

:40:22. > :40:24.The ball in the UK Government's court.

:40:25. > :40:28.If they don't listen, then people are going to make their own minds up

:40:29. > :40:34.So these things have to be sorted out now rather than the platitudes

:40:35. > :40:39.We need to see action now so we understand the UK

:40:40. > :40:42.is a partnership of four nations, not one imposing its will

:40:43. > :40:47.We have been discussing this for a number of years and I guess

:40:48. > :40:49.the problem will be for people watching this programme now,

:40:50. > :40:52.the constitution again, how is that going to improve my life?

:40:53. > :40:55.With services, schools and hospitals, what would be

:40:56. > :40:58.Certainty, we need to know who does what.

:40:59. > :41:02.For example, if you don't have any rules at all about what can happen

:41:03. > :41:06.in the UK if we leave the EU, we're going to have a trade war

:41:07. > :41:08.in the UK between the different nations, no one wants that,

:41:09. > :41:11.that would cost jobs, it would cost a lot of money,

:41:12. > :41:14.And that needs to be resolved as soon as possible.

:41:15. > :41:17.Do you think that could happen, there could be a trade

:41:18. > :41:19.war between Scotland, England and Wales after Brexit?

:41:20. > :41:24.The EU state aids rules govern what we can and can't do.

:41:25. > :41:27.If there are no rules, it becomes a free for all,

:41:28. > :41:29.that is a bad thing for any single market.

:41:30. > :41:31.What will be your suggestion, how should this federalism,

:41:32. > :41:34.this new relationship and your convention work?

:41:35. > :41:37.Let's look at one example, Canada, where they have pooled sovereignty,

:41:38. > :41:38.sovereignty is shared between the provinces

:41:39. > :41:44.This idea that everything lies in Westminster and therefore

:41:45. > :41:48.Westminster has control over every single policy, every

:41:49. > :41:51.single thing ultimately, Parliamentary sovereignty,

:41:52. > :41:54.I think it should be consigned to the history books.

:41:55. > :41:57.We need to have a situation where we have a structure in place,

:41:58. > :42:01.there is a recognition that not just of Scotland, Wales

:42:02. > :42:03.and Northern Ireland, but England and the cities as well,

:42:04. > :42:06.a modern constitution that will keep the UK together in the future.

:42:07. > :42:09.But how do you get over the fact that what you have

:42:10. > :42:12.in the United Kingdom is one massive entity, England, and the rest of

:42:13. > :42:19.It's difficult, let's have a look at ways we can do that.

:42:20. > :42:22.If we have for example a situation where, two examples,

:42:23. > :42:26.The UK doesn't exist in agriculture and fisheries,

:42:27. > :42:28.either it's European or it's the four nations who control

:42:29. > :42:34.We need to have a mechanism in place where we can agree a common

:42:35. > :42:36.framework and a common way forward where that's appropriate.

:42:37. > :42:39.Animal health, for example, does it make sense to have three

:42:40. > :42:41.different animal health regimes on one island?

:42:42. > :42:45.We agree a common way forward but the difference is it should

:42:46. > :42:49.That's what we need to look at in the future.

:42:50. > :42:52.There are other ways in which we can look at this,

:42:53. > :42:55.for example, the upper house, the Lords as it is now,

:42:56. > :42:57.why not make that something like the American Senate

:42:58. > :43:00.where there is equal representation from these four nations,

:43:01. > :43:02.that recognises the fact that there are four nations

:43:03. > :43:05.in this partnership, as of course the House of Commons

:43:06. > :43:09.recognises the population difference between England and the other three.

:43:10. > :43:12.So what do Carwyn Jones' political opponents make of all this?

:43:13. > :43:15.James Williams took a trip to the future to find out.

:43:16. > :43:21.Good evening and welcome to Wales Today.

:43:22. > :43:24.Tonight's headlines on March 19th 2027.

:43:25. > :43:28.With all eyes on elections in the newly independent Scotland

:43:29. > :43:31.and the united Ireland, we ask what it will mean for Wales.

:43:32. > :43:34.Meanwhile, a hat-trick for the Welsh football team

:43:35. > :43:38.as they clinch the World Cup for third successive time.

:43:39. > :43:41.OK, thanks very much, Jamie, thanks for that,

:43:42. > :43:46.But in all seriousness, in the wake of the Brexit vote,

:43:47. > :43:49.the idea of an independent Scotland and a united Ireland

:43:50. > :43:55.So when it comes to Labour's plan for a constitutional

:43:56. > :43:57.convention about the future of the United Kingdom,

:43:58. > :44:04.I'll tell you the constitution convention we should be having,

:44:05. > :44:09.And that's the kind of leadership that we should be seen

:44:10. > :44:12.from the First Minister of Wales, is actually leading

:44:13. > :44:16.a national conversation at these uncertain times.

:44:17. > :44:22.And yet where is the vision for what this means for Wales?

:44:23. > :44:27.That's the convention that we should be having, a cross-party,

:44:28. > :44:31.across the whole of Wales, involving all sections of society,

:44:32. > :44:38.Rather than the Labour Party talking to itself, why doesn't it talk

:44:39. > :44:42.And in that conversation, Plaid Cymru wants to talk about

:44:43. > :44:45.the prospect for an independent Wales.

:44:46. > :44:48.They called for a renewed discussion on this just days

:44:49. > :44:54.Whilst others were of course celebrating their independence.

:44:55. > :45:02.The dawn is breaking on an independent United Kingdom.

:45:03. > :45:05.But will it come at a price for the four nations?

:45:06. > :45:10.I don't think that the UK will break up as a result of Brexit.

:45:11. > :45:15.I think it will give more powers to the devolved institutions,

:45:16. > :45:17.the parliament in Scotland and the assembly in Wales,

:45:18. > :45:20.and that is going to help keep the kingdom together

:45:21. > :45:25.because within a single entity, the devolved assemblies

:45:26. > :45:33.So I think actually, it takes quite a lot

:45:34. > :45:36.of power out of the demand for further separation.

:45:37. > :45:39.Our party are clear, there must be a future

:45:40. > :45:43.for the United Kingdom but there are issues that

:45:44. > :45:48.Obviously the whole debate about devolution, the future

:45:49. > :45:50.of the House of Lords, about electoral reform,

:45:51. > :45:52.about devolving even more to local authorities,

:45:53. > :45:55.there's a much bigger picture than what we have been presented

:45:56. > :45:57.with at the moment and that requires a UK response.

:45:58. > :46:00.So I do welcome it and I hope other political parties do as well.

:46:01. > :46:03.This weekend has been a tale of two conferences.

:46:04. > :46:06.And two competing visions for the future of the UK.

:46:07. > :46:08.In Cardiff, the Prime Minister set out her desire to create

:46:09. > :46:11.a more united union, just days after she rejected

:46:12. > :46:13.Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second Scottish independent referendum.

:46:14. > :46:20.It's safe to say Nicola Sturgeon got a better reception

:46:21. > :46:26.than the Prime Minister amongst the SNP faithful.

:46:27. > :46:30.With all this talk about the future of Northern Ireland and Scotland,

:46:31. > :46:35.The majority of the Welsh electorate voted for Brexit which means that

:46:36. > :46:38.Wales has far less leverage for example in the discussions

:46:39. > :46:42.with the government in Edinburgh, even Belfast.

:46:43. > :46:46.So frankly Wales is pretty marginalised, and that's of course

:46:47. > :46:51.why for the Welsh Labour government the idea of a convention

:46:52. > :46:54.is so attractive because I think they view it as a way of getting

:46:55. > :46:57.themselves into the shop window if you like, making

:46:58. > :47:03.As we prepare to leave one union, the future of the other union looks

:47:04. > :47:11.Little is known about how either will turn out.

:47:12. > :47:13.Now few people can say they've been in a Westminster

:47:14. > :47:16.cabinet for 13 years, but Jack Straw is one of them.

:47:17. > :47:19.The former Foreign Secretary, who also ran the Home Office

:47:20. > :47:22.in his time, was visiting the University of

:47:23. > :47:29.When I met him there I asked how trade talks would work after Brexit.

:47:30. > :47:32.Well, it's not easy but I'm actually pretty optimistic about the future.

:47:33. > :47:35.And that against a background in which I thought it was not

:47:36. > :47:39.in our interests to leave the European Union.

:47:40. > :47:44.We are 60 million people, we've got the fifth largest defence

:47:45. > :47:49.forces in the world, we've got the fifth biggest economy.

:47:50. > :47:54.We are the top four in exercise of what's called soft power.

:47:55. > :48:02.It requires skill by British ministers and British

:48:03. > :48:04.parliamentarians about how we negotiate.

:48:05. > :48:08.And it's already clear that quite a number of countries,

:48:09. > :48:12.Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Turkey, quite big countries,

:48:13. > :48:17.want changes in trade arrangements with us so they're closer

:48:18. > :48:24.We're going to reach a deal somehow or other with other member states

:48:25. > :48:30.It's just possible we don't but I don't regard the WTO,

:48:31. > :48:35.the foot, as a total disaster, let's see.

:48:36. > :48:37.Going back 20 years, would have been the referendum

:48:38. > :48:40.on devolution creating a Welsh assembly.

:48:41. > :48:44.I remember it well, I remember trying to generate interest in a bus

:48:45. > :48:48.station in Wrexham during the course of that campaign.

:48:49. > :48:54.Well, I can't say it was my finest moment canvassing.

:48:55. > :48:56.That's the thing, it was a very narrow,

:48:57. > :48:58.considering the overwhelming majority...

:48:59. > :49:03.Considering the thumping majority that Labour had,

:49:04. > :49:05.just six months previously, to have such a narrow majority

:49:06. > :49:09.there, how much of a disappointment and a surprise was that?

:49:10. > :49:12.Well, I mean, look, there were plenty of people

:49:13. > :49:15.who were firmly opposed to devolution back in the '70s.

:49:16. > :49:17.I mean, Neil Kinnock famously who argued very,

:49:18. > :49:20.very strongly and powerfully against the Labour Party's

:49:21. > :49:27.Which is why the referendum in Wales in early '79

:49:28. > :49:37.Anyway, it happened, but I think that the results

:49:38. > :49:40.of Welsh devolution has been pretty benign.

:49:41. > :49:45.I think it's good that Wales is running so many of its own

:49:46. > :49:49.services from Cardiff, from its own national capital.

:49:50. > :49:51.It's good that you're getting different parts

:49:52. > :49:56.of the United Kingdom trying to achieve similar aims

:49:57. > :49:58.but differently, say within the health service

:49:59. > :50:00.within the education service, because they only benefit

:50:01. > :50:07.What was the Labour view in Westminster when you saw you had

:50:08. > :50:10.the New Labour project, academy schools, foundation

:50:11. > :50:13.hospitals, or working with the private sector in England,

:50:14. > :50:16.and then Wales's policy of clear water, we are not

:50:17. > :50:18.following the New Labour model, it was almost a dirty word

:50:19. > :50:32.If you give people power, you can't at the same time say,

:50:33. > :50:35.and what's more, you've got to use the power the way

:50:36. > :50:41.So my view is, that was a natural consequence of devolution,

:50:42. > :50:46.that different parts of the UK, even in the same party,

:50:47. > :50:53.And I personally think that academy schools and the use of the private

:50:54. > :50:58.sector for the NHS has a role to play.

:50:59. > :51:02.I'm not certain about that and I think it's terrific that

:51:03. > :51:06.meanwhile, Labour colleagues in Wales are experimenting

:51:07. > :51:09.in a different way by saying we're going to keep the private sector out

:51:10. > :51:12.altogether, we're going to keep local authorities running schools.

:51:13. > :51:16.You should not be dogmatic about this.

:51:17. > :51:20.You should be dogmatic about the ends, free health service

:51:21. > :51:22.at the point of use, good quality, free schooling,

:51:23. > :51:25.but the means I think you should be pragmatic.

:51:26. > :51:33.Which brings us on to Labour at the UK level.

:51:34. > :51:36.How long do you think it will be before you're back

:51:37. > :51:44.This is not me trying to pour terrible water on Labour's chances,

:51:45. > :51:48.it's just a matter of fact and I should not be shot for saying

:51:49. > :51:51.so, that Labour is going to be out of power for a long time

:51:52. > :51:57.I occasionally go to the bookies and put money on events,

:51:58. > :52:01.I'm not putting any money on Labour winning the next election.

:52:02. > :52:06.I know nobody who would with the current leadership.

:52:07. > :52:12.Well, look, there has to be a change of leader if we ever want to win.

:52:13. > :52:15.I think that's even palpably obvious to Jeremy Corbyn.

:52:16. > :52:18.The question is whether we have to wait until the next

:52:19. > :52:25.But is a change of leader or a change of the politics of Labour?

:52:26. > :52:32.It's both, just to replace Jeremy Corbyn with someone

:52:33. > :52:35.who is another Jeremy Corbyn ain't going to work.

:52:36. > :52:38.I mean people are not daft, they look at the totality

:52:39. > :52:42.of what a leadership is offering and frankly, all the evidence

:52:43. > :52:47.is that they turn away from what Mr Corbyn is offering

:52:48. > :52:55.And it's a curious mixture of dogmatism and pure opportunism.

:52:56. > :53:00.Take this question of the national insurance contributions

:53:01. > :53:06.Understandably it caused a row on the Tory backbenchers.

:53:07. > :53:10.But why have Labour joined in to support the Tory

:53:11. > :53:15.I thought that we were a party in favour of ensuring that those

:53:16. > :53:19.who could afford to paid a decent amount of taxation.

:53:20. > :53:22.I also thought we were a party of, as the Institute

:53:23. > :53:25.for Fiscal Studies has pointed out, if you are on similar incomes

:53:26. > :53:27.and similar benefits, you should pay similar

:53:28. > :53:33.And this proposal was to equalise the level of taxation the people

:53:34. > :53:37.who are self employed with those who are employed.

:53:38. > :53:42.It was, Labour would have done this had we been in government.

:53:43. > :53:47.So quite why it's being decided to oppose it, I know why,

:53:48. > :53:49.they thought it would embarrass the Conservatives.

:53:50. > :53:52.It would have been far more sensible for us to have stuck

:53:53. > :53:55.to our principles and said to Mrs May, we will support

:53:56. > :53:58.you in the lobbies, doing something that was right which also had

:53:59. > :54:03.the added advantage of splitting the Tory party.

:54:04. > :54:06.It's been a difficult week for the Tories, but the message

:54:07. > :54:09.from their conference in Cardiff this weekend was that the party

:54:10. > :54:10.is moving forwards and looking to the local elections.

:54:11. > :54:13.But when I met Andrew RT Davies, I had to begin by asking

:54:14. > :54:17.I don't think politicians can win, can they?

:54:18. > :54:19.At the end of the day they put something forward

:54:20. > :54:22.and ultimately then they listen to the representations of the day

:54:23. > :54:26.and they say, do you know what, maybe it's not such a good idea

:54:27. > :54:28.and then they come to Parliament, they take all the questions

:54:29. > :54:31.as Philip Hammond did take when he made his statement, and they

:54:32. > :54:36.The decision wasn't going to come in until April next year anyway,

:54:37. > :54:40.so no one has had to pay these monies over to the Treasury.

:54:41. > :54:42.Whereas you take the situation here in Wales where you've got

:54:43. > :54:45.businesses the length and breadth of Wales which are facing a huge

:54:46. > :54:49.increase in their business rates and the Welsh government have done

:54:50. > :54:52.very, very little to do, and I've been talking to the FSB

:54:53. > :54:54.this morning over the problems many of their members are facing.

:54:55. > :54:58.And so actually you can't have it that politicians will never

:54:59. > :55:03.Here you have a classic case of a politician listening and acting

:55:04. > :55:05.on the representations he is receiving.

:55:06. > :55:08.The Welsh government would say they've spent over ?20 million

:55:09. > :55:12.helping small businesses, small business relief in Wales.

:55:13. > :55:16.But when you look at not just the economic history,

:55:17. > :55:18.but you look at what is happening constitutionally in the UK now,

:55:19. > :55:22.Nicola Sturgeon threatening that second independence referendum,

:55:23. > :55:25.is that a concern at all in your mind that the price

:55:26. > :55:28.of Brexit may well be the end of the United Kingdom?

:55:29. > :55:33.Nicola Sturgeon didn't suddenly decide independence is a good

:55:34. > :55:41.Nicola Sturgeon is a nationalist at the end of the day.

:55:42. > :55:43.I respect her for that, that's her view, that's her party's

:55:44. > :55:46.goal, to break up the union in the United Kingdom.

:55:47. > :55:48.But actually if you look at what Nicola Sturgeon is looking

:55:49. > :55:51.to do, she's looking to follow her nemesis on the other

:55:52. > :55:54.side of the Atlantic, Donald Trump, and build a wall to break Scotland

:55:55. > :55:59.But sadly, it will be the Scottish people who will end up paying

:56:00. > :56:01.for that wall by poorer public services, closure of hospitals,

:56:02. > :56:04.closure of schools, and less take-home pay in people's pay

:56:05. > :56:06.packets because we know that Scotland benefits

:56:07. > :56:10.Wales benefits from being part of the union, Northern Ireland

:56:11. > :56:13.benefits from being part of the union, and the union

:56:14. > :56:16.benefits from having Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland,

:56:17. > :56:22.So surely that's a good recipe to hold together.

:56:23. > :56:25.But aren't all those points you've just made equally

:56:26. > :56:28.applicable to staying as part of the European Union?

:56:29. > :56:31.Without fighting a referendum that's already been fought,

:56:32. > :56:33.the points you have just made about Scotland being part

:56:34. > :56:37.of the United Kingdom are equally applicable for the European Union.

:56:38. > :56:40.No, you obviously didn't take any points on at all in the referendum.

:56:41. > :56:43.We send, for every ?2 we send over to Brussels,

:56:44. > :56:47.Scotland actually benefits from being in the union

:56:48. > :56:52.It has four times the amount of trade with the United Kingdom

:56:53. > :56:55.And ultimately, Europe, as I last looked, wasn't

:56:56. > :57:00.The United Kingdom is a sovereign state.

:57:01. > :57:04.We have control within these islands because we have parliaments

:57:05. > :57:06.and assemblies that have democratically elected

:57:07. > :57:10.Nicola Sturgeon, if you slam the door too loud in Whitehall,

:57:11. > :57:16.What Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should be doing is focusing

:57:17. > :57:19.on improving education standards, health, and the economy

:57:20. > :57:23.in Scotland which has all gone backwards under the SNP.

:57:24. > :57:26.And what's dangerous here is that Plaid Cymru are trying to make

:57:27. > :57:29.the same case here in Wales to break Wales from the union

:57:30. > :57:34.Let's not forget, every vote in these local government elections

:57:35. > :57:36.for Plaid Cymru will be a vote for nationalism

:57:37. > :57:41.It will not be a vote for local services.

:57:42. > :57:47.Looking at what will happen after Brexit, you will have seen

:57:48. > :57:49.that Carwyn Jones has been saying there needs to be this

:57:50. > :57:52.Constitutional Convention, there needs to be clearly set out

:57:53. > :57:54.rules about how the United Kingdom works after Brexit.

:57:55. > :57:56.Otherwise, he said, it could lead to trade wars.

:57:57. > :58:01.I'm baffled by his pronunciation of trade wars.

:58:02. > :58:04.I mean, the union of the United Kingdom has been

:58:05. > :58:09.As I last looked at the Constitution, trade and industry

:58:10. > :58:13.certainly wasn't devolved and international negotiations

:58:14. > :58:19.But this is internal, a trade war between Wales and England.

:58:20. > :58:22.He does have a point because the point I put forward

:58:23. > :58:25.and at the time I was rubbished over, but it seems that people

:58:26. > :58:28.seem to accept it now, is that we do need UK frameworks.

:58:29. > :58:31.We need frameworks in agriculture, we need frameworks for HE, we need

:58:32. > :58:35.So that all parts of the union can benefit from that money

:58:36. > :58:40.And Wales mustn't lose out any money when it comes

:58:41. > :58:45.And we will be working with colleagues in Westminster.

:58:46. > :58:48.The biggest regret I have over Carwyn Jones is that he has not

:58:49. > :58:53.reached out the hand of friendship and had a discussion with myself

:58:54. > :58:56.and with other Brexiteers about how we can get a solid platform

:58:57. > :59:03.in the negotiating round for Wales having a joint approach.

:59:04. > :59:08.But Carwyn Jones didn't choose to do that.

:59:09. > :59:11.He keeps moaning about the UK Government's response to him.

:59:12. > :59:14.The UK Government is fully engaged with the devolved

:59:15. > :59:17.governments and administrations and the Secretary of State

:59:18. > :59:19.and the Prime Minister have had numerous meetings.

:59:20. > :59:21.Regrettably Carwyn Jones is not practising what he

:59:22. > :59:25.We mentioned earlier the local elections.

:59:26. > :59:27.How do you think those are going to go?

:59:28. > :59:31.A fairly disappointing set of results in 2012,

:59:32. > :59:36.I don't think it's right to set targets in the media

:59:37. > :59:40.as such, but what I can say is that we have a record number

:59:41. > :59:42.of candidates looking to stand for us at these elections,

:59:43. > :59:46.we will be standing in all 22 local authorities and we will be putting

:59:47. > :59:51.Because ultimately if people want to see what Conservatives can

:59:52. > :59:53.do in local government, they only need to look

:59:54. > :59:55.at the Monmouthshire where we have run a very successful

:59:56. > :59:59.administration, delivering quality public services

:00:00. > :00:02.at an affordable price, getting the job done.

:00:03. > :00:04.What communities can't afford is to have another five years

:00:05. > :00:09.And the Conservatives will be fighting a positive campaign,

:00:10. > :00:12.looking forward, looking up and looking at the horizon,

:00:13. > :00:16.OK, those are the sound bites but what are the details?

:00:17. > :00:17.What kind of offer will you be making?

:00:18. > :00:21.The offer will be that we will deliver and maintain public services

:00:22. > :00:23.that people value and cherish, like if that pothole outside your

:00:24. > :00:26.house isn't being filled, we will get the roads fixed,

:00:27. > :00:29.we will get the lights back on, we will reopen community

:00:30. > :00:32.centres and above all, we will get playing fields

:00:33. > :00:34.and parks people cherish back into the community.

:00:35. > :00:38.Because we don't believe in dictating down to communities,

:00:39. > :00:40.we believe in working with those communities.

:00:41. > :00:42.Reopening playing fields, is that a manifesto...

:00:43. > :00:45.I'm trying to get a sense from you what you will be offering

:00:46. > :00:48.to people across Wales, you say you'll be reopening playing

:00:49. > :00:51.fields, that will be a pledge for every council in Wales?

:00:52. > :00:54.We'll be working with community to allow that to happen.

:00:55. > :00:58.Because local government isn't a one size fits all,

:00:59. > :01:01.there's 22 local authorities, what is right in one local authority

:01:02. > :01:03.doesn't necessarily fit in another local authority.

:01:04. > :01:06.The way you protect services in one area might be

:01:07. > :01:09.totally different, say, from Cardiff, for example, a large

:01:10. > :01:14.But what the Conservatives believe in, rather than saying,

:01:15. > :01:17.we know best, and sitting in County Hall dictating

:01:18. > :01:20.to communities, we want to work with communities so that we can

:01:21. > :01:23.unleash that potential within those communities to keep the local

:01:24. > :01:26.leisure centre open, to keep the library going,

:01:27. > :01:28.to keep sports fields going, rather than just say,

:01:29. > :01:31.you know what, it's easier for us to shut it.

:01:32. > :01:34.That's been the approach to date and that's why people have

:01:35. > :01:37.seen services disappear, services that communities

:01:38. > :01:41.Andrew RT Davies there in buoyant mood.

:01:42. > :01:44.That's it from me for another week, I hope we can look forward

:01:45. > :01:47.to your company again next Sunday when we'll be hearing

:01:48. > :01:48.from Welsh Labour at their conference in Llandudno.

:01:49. > :01:50.Don't forget Twitter runs all the time.

:01:51. > :01:59.you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.

:02:00. > :02:02.So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament

:02:03. > :02:06.Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think

:02:07. > :02:10.And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?

:02:11. > :02:19.Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week

:02:20. > :02:29.Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is

:02:30. > :02:33.too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor

:02:34. > :02:38.would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a

:02:39. > :02:41.position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four

:02:42. > :02:46.days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not

:02:47. > :02:49.be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,

:02:50. > :02:51.a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,

:02:52. > :02:54.he's also chairman of While being committed to one day

:02:55. > :03:00.a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -

:03:01. > :03:03.a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic

:03:04. > :03:08.credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,

:03:09. > :03:10.an American thinktank, And finally as a member

:03:11. > :03:18.of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep

:03:19. > :03:24.as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000

:03:25. > :03:36.since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners

:03:37. > :03:40.if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on

:03:41. > :03:43.the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have

:03:44. > :03:49.got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs

:03:50. > :03:53.on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.

:03:54. > :03:58.I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these

:03:59. > :04:02.people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used

:04:03. > :04:07.to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,

:04:08. > :04:11.Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now

:04:12. > :04:15.because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new

:04:16. > :04:20.foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair

:04:21. > :04:26.praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.

:04:27. > :04:29.They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge

:04:30. > :04:35.influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015

:04:36. > :04:39.election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they

:04:40. > :04:44.elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which

:04:45. > :04:48.this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as

:04:49. > :04:55.a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and

:04:56. > :05:00.government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly

:05:01. > :05:03.getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George

:05:04. > :05:08.Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of

:05:09. > :05:12.London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying

:05:13. > :05:19.Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major

:05:20. > :05:22.was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing

:05:23. > :05:27.for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features

:05:28. > :05:34.editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,

:05:35. > :05:38.did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I

:05:39. > :05:41.worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know

:05:42. > :05:45.what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.

:05:46. > :05:50.If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am

:05:51. > :05:53.to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited

:05:54. > :05:59.should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is

:06:00. > :06:02.a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you

:06:03. > :06:06.see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and

:06:07. > :06:09.maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people

:06:10. > :06:15.about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have

:06:16. > :06:19.known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,

:06:20. > :06:25.he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have

:06:26. > :06:29.calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised

:06:30. > :06:32.there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's

:06:33. > :06:37.probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and

:06:38. > :06:42.on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big

:06:43. > :06:47.budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages

:06:48. > :06:52.out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.

:06:53. > :06:57.It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant

:06:58. > :07:03.budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has

:07:04. > :07:07.hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a

:07:08. > :07:13.something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to

:07:14. > :07:17.stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was

:07:18. > :07:20.wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an

:07:21. > :07:25.association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four

:07:26. > :07:28.hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big

:07:29. > :07:35.speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages

:07:36. > :07:40.have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the

:07:41. > :07:46.editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is

:07:47. > :07:49.what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the

:07:50. > :07:58.newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on

:07:59. > :08:01.newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation

:08:02. > :08:09.period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas

:08:10. > :08:13.losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National

:08:14. > :08:19.Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are

:08:20. > :08:25.unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are

:08:26. > :08:29.unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed

:08:30. > :08:34.form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to

:08:35. > :08:37.move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or

:08:38. > :08:42.will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor

:08:43. > :08:47.level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need

:08:48. > :08:51.to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but

:08:52. > :08:54.what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents

:08:55. > :08:59.have been getting letters across the country in England about what this

:09:00. > :09:03.will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a

:09:04. > :09:07.matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and

:09:08. > :09:12.Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the

:09:13. > :09:16.new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more

:09:17. > :09:20.disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are

:09:21. > :09:24.going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already

:09:25. > :09:29.struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller

:09:30. > :09:34.fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,

:09:35. > :09:39.adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is

:09:40. > :09:44.an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the

:09:45. > :09:47.Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy

:09:48. > :09:51.companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so

:09:52. > :09:55.good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put

:09:56. > :10:00.a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was

:10:01. > :10:04.obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the

:10:05. > :10:09.Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap

:10:10. > :10:12.on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus

:10:13. > :10:17.much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this

:10:18. > :10:22.translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That

:10:23. > :10:25.bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the

:10:26. > :10:30.Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time

:10:31. > :10:34.where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that

:10:35. > :10:39.government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in

:10:40. > :10:43.the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy

:10:44. > :10:46.consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in

:10:47. > :10:51.fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of

:10:52. > :10:56.implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of

:10:57. > :10:59.Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk

:11:00. > :11:06.the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about

:11:07. > :11:09.managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the

:11:10. > :11:15.lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and

:11:16. > :11:20.in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just

:11:21. > :11:23.about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut

:11:24. > :11:27.their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We

:11:28. > :11:31.don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that

:11:32. > :11:35.could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There

:11:36. > :11:38.has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and

:11:39. > :11:40.not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory

:11:41. > :11:55.MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of

:11:56. > :11:58.continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's

:11:59. > :12:01.on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs

:12:02. > :12:03.to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of

:12:04. > :12:06.Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government

:12:07. > :12:09.is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you

:12:10. > :12:11.could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a

:12:12. > :12:15.malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,

:12:16. > :12:18.so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics

:12:19. > :12:21.would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff

:12:22. > :12:25.to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the

:12:26. > :12:31.way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You

:12:32. > :12:34.are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been

:12:35. > :12:37.calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite

:12:38. > :12:43.some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to

:12:44. > :12:47.sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly

:12:48. > :12:50.ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in

:12:51. > :12:57.Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial

:12:58. > :13:00.windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I

:13:01. > :13:03.mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling

:13:04. > :13:07.businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having

:13:08. > :13:12.saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point

:13:13. > :13:16.being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those

:13:17. > :13:20.first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions

:13:21. > :13:27.taken. On that unusual agreement we will

:13:28. > :13:29.leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at

:13:30. > :13:31.noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One

:13:32. > :13:34.next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:35. > :14:21.it's the Sunday Politics. for families that have had

:14:22. > :14:21.people pass away. There is a life out there

:14:22. > :14:22.afterwards.