:00:43. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:56. > :00:58.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:59. > :01:04.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:05. > :01:08.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:09. > :01:13.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:14. > :01:15.Later in the programme, Carwyn Jones on Labour divisions,
:01:16. > :01:17.elections and retirement, and as the Article 50
:01:18. > :01:19.letter is sent, what role will Wales play in Brexit?
:01:20. > :01:32.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:35.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:36. > :01:41.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:42. > :01:43.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:44. > :01:47.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:48. > :01:49.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:50. > :01:53.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:54. > :01:55.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:56. > :01:58.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:59. > :02:01.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:02. > :02:05.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:06. > :02:07.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:08. > :02:15.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:16. > :02:23.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:24. > :02:27.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:28. > :02:30.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:31. > :02:35.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:36. > :02:38.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:39. > :02:43.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:44. > :02:46.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:47. > :02:52.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:53. > :02:56.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:57. > :03:01.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:03:02. > :03:05.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:06. > :03:09.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:10. > :03:13.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:14. > :03:19.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:20. > :03:22.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:23. > :03:27.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:28. > :03:31.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:32. > :03:35.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:36. > :03:40.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:41. > :03:45.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:46. > :03:49.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:50. > :03:54.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:55. > :03:59.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:04:00. > :04:03.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:04. > :04:09.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:10. > :04:15.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:16. > :04:19.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:20. > :04:24.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:25. > :04:27.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:28. > :04:34.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:35. > :04:38.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:39. > :04:42.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:43. > :04:46.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:47. > :04:49.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:50. > :04:51.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:52. > :04:55.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:56. > :05:00.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:05:01. > :05:05.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:06. > :05:07.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:08. > :05:14.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:15. > :05:18.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:19. > :05:29.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:30. > :05:34.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:35. > :05:36."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:37. > :05:39.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:40. > :05:42.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:43. > :05:45.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:46. > :05:48.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:49. > :05:51.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:52. > :05:58.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:59. > :06:04.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:05. > :06:06.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:07. > :06:09.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:10. > :06:12.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:13. > :06:16.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:17. > :06:25.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:26. > :06:27.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:28. > :06:29.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:30. > :06:31.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:32. > :06:35.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:36. > :06:37.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:38. > :06:41.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:42. > :06:49...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:50. > :06:51.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:52. > :06:57.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:58. > :07:05.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:06. > :07:08.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:09. > :07:12.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:13. > :07:16.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:17. > :07:20.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:21. > :07:24.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:25. > :07:28.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:29. > :07:32.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:33. > :07:40.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:41. > :07:42.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:43. > :07:47.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:48. > :07:51.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:52. > :07:54.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:55. > :08:00.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:08:01. > :08:04.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:05. > :08:07.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:08. > :08:13.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:14. > :08:18.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:19. > :08:24.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:25. > :08:28.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:29. > :08:32.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:33. > :08:35.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:36. > :08:39.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:40. > :08:43.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:44. > :08:47.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:48. > :08:51.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:52. > :08:56.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:57. > :09:01.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:02. > :09:06.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:07. > :09:11.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:12. > :09:16.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:17. > :09:21.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:22. > :09:24.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:25. > :09:30.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:31. > :09:35.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:36. > :09:39.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:40. > :09:44.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:45. > :09:48.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:49. > :09:53.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:54. > :09:57.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:58. > :10:01.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:02. > :10:06.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:07. > :10:10.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:11. > :10:13.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:14. > :10:18.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:19. > :10:23.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:24. > :10:27.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:28. > :10:30.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:31. > :10:36.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:37. > :10:41.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:42. > :10:45.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:46. > :10:49.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:50. > :10:52.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:53. > :10:56.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:57. > :11:00.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:11:01. > :11:05.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:06. > :11:09.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:10. > :11:12.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:13. > :11:15.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:16. > :11:23.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:24. > :11:28.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:29. > :11:36.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:37. > :11:39.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:40. > :11:43.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:44. > :11:49.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:50. > :11:51.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:52. > :11:56.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:57. > :11:58.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:59. > :12:01.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:12:02. > :12:08.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:09. > :12:11.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:12. > :12:20.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:21. > :12:25.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:26. > :12:28.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:29. > :12:35.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:36. > :12:41.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:42. > :12:49.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:50. > :12:52.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:55.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:56. > :12:59.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:13:00. > :13:04.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:05. > :13:08.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:09. > :13:11.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:12. > :13:17.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:18. > :13:20.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:21. > :13:26.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:27. > :13:31.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:32. > :13:38.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:39. > :13:42.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:43. > :13:46.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:47. > :13:50.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:51. > :13:56.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:57. > :14:01.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:14:02. > :14:06.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:07. > :14:12.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:13. > :14:16.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:17. > :14:20.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:21. > :14:23.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:24. > :14:29.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:30. > :14:33.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:34. > :14:38.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:39. > :14:44.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:45. > :14:48.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:49. > :14:55.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:56. > :15:00.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:15:01. > :15:05.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:06. > :15:07.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:08. > :15:13.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:14. > :15:19.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:20. > :15:23.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:24. > :15:29.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:30. > :15:33.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:34. > :15:38.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:39. > :15:42.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:43. > :15:46.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:47. > :15:50.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:51. > :15:54.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:55. > :15:58.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:59. > :16:02.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:03. > :16:11.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:12. > :16:15.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:16. > :16:20.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:21. > :16:24.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:25. > :16:29.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:30. > :16:34.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:35. > :16:39.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:40. > :16:49.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:50. > :16:53.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:54. > :17:01.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:02. > :17:07.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:08. > :17:13.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:14. > :17:17.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:18. > :17:22.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:23. > :17:25.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:26. > :17:32.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:33. > :17:39.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:40. > :17:43.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:44. > :17:49.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:50. > :17:53.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:54. > :18:00.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:18:01. > :18:04.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:05. > :18:17.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:18. > :18:22.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:23. > :18:25.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:26. > :18:29.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:30. > :18:33.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:34. > :18:40.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:41. > :18:43.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:44. > :18:49.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:50. > :18:53.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:54. > :18:57.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:58. > :19:01.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:19:02. > :19:06.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:07. > :19:11.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:12. > :19:16.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:17. > :19:21.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:22. > :19:25.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:26. > :19:30.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:31. > :19:37.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:38. > :19:42.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:43. > :19:47.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:48. > :19:53.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:54. > :19:57.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:58. > :20:05.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:06. > :20:09.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:10. > :20:15.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:16. > :20:18.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:19. > :20:24.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:25. > :20:28.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:29. > :20:35.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:36. > :20:40.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:41. > :20:44.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:45. > :20:49.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:50. > :20:54.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:55. > :20:57.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:58. > :21:02.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:03. > :21:04.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:05. > :21:21.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:22. > :21:24.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:25. > :21:26.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:27. > :21:32.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:33. > :21:37.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:38. > :21:41.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:42. > :21:47.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:48. > :21:52.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:53. > :21:56.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:57. > :22:04.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:05. > :22:09.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:10. > :22:14.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:15. > :22:20.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:21. > :22:26.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:27. > :22:32.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:33. > :22:37.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:38. > :22:44.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:45. > :22:49.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:50. > :22:52.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:53. > :23:03.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:04. > :23:09.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:10. > :23:13.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:14. > :23:17.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:18. > :23:22.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:23. > :23:26.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:27. > :23:31.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:32. > :23:36.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:37. > :23:41.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:42. > :23:46.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:47. > :23:52.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:53. > :23:59.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:24:00. > :24:04.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:05. > :24:10.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:11. > :24:17.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:18. > :24:22.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:23. > :24:33.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:34. > :24:39.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:40. > :24:43.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:44. > :24:46.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:47. > :24:52.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:53. > :24:57.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:58. > :25:01.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:25:02. > :25:05.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:06. > :25:11.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:12. > :25:14.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:15. > :25:20.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:21. > :25:26.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:27. > :25:27.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:28. > :25:30.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:31. > :25:32.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:33. > :25:33.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:34. > :25:35.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:36. > :25:37.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:38. > :25:40."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:41. > :25:44.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:45. > :25:46.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:47. > :25:51.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:52. > :25:54.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:55. > :26:00.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:26:01. > :26:02.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:03. > :26:04.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:05. > :26:06.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:07. > :26:14.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:15. > :26:16.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:17. > :26:19.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:20. > :26:22.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:23. > :26:24.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:25. > :26:27.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:28. > :26:30."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:31. > :26:39.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:40. > :26:45.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:46. > :26:55.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:56. > :27:00.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:27:01. > :27:06.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:07. > :27:10.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:11. > :27:14.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:15. > :27:18.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:19. > :27:22.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:23. > :27:26.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:27. > :27:33.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:34. > :27:36.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:37. > :27:40.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:41. > :27:43.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:44. > :27:47.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:48. > :27:54.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:55. > :27:59.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:28:00. > :28:03.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:04. > :28:11.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:12. > :28:15.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:16. > :28:23.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:24. > :28:28.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:29. > :28:33.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:34. > :28:38.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:39. > :28:46.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:47. > :29:02.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:03. > :29:06.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:07. > :29:09.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:10. > :29:13.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:14. > :29:19.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:20. > :29:23.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:24. > :29:27.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:28. > :29:33.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:34. > :29:39.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:40. > :29:42.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:43. > :29:46.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:47. > :29:52.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:53. > :29:56.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:57. > :30:03.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:04. > :30:06.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:07. > :30:13.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:14. > :30:17.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:18. > :30:22.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:23. > :30:26.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:27. > :30:36.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:37. > :30:41.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:42. > :30:45.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:46. > :30:51.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:52. > :30:55.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:56. > :30:59.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:31:00. > :31:04.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:05. > :31:09.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:10. > :31:12.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:13. > :31:29.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:30. > :31:31.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:32. > :31:33.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:34. > :31:36.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:37. > :31:39.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:40. > :31:42.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:43. > :31:46.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:47. > :31:50.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:51. > :31:54.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:55. > :31:58.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:59. > :32:05.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:06. > :32:07.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:08. > :32:11.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:12. > :32:17.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:18. > :32:24.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:25. > :32:31.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:32. > :32:34.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:35. > :32:39.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:40. > :32:43.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:44. > :32:47.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:48. > :32:51.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:52. > :32:56.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:57. > :33:00.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:33:01. > :33:08.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:09. > :33:13.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:14. > :33:17.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:18. > :33:21.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:22. > :33:28.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:29. > :33:30.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:31. > :33:36.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:37. > :33:40.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:41. > :33:45.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:46. > :33:53.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:54. > :33:58.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:59. > :34:02.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:03. > :34:06.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:07. > :34:11.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:12. > :34:14.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:15. > :34:18.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:19. > :34:23.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:24. > :34:28.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:29. > :34:33.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:34. > :34:37.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:38. > :34:41.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:42. > :34:45.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:46. > :34:49.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:50. > :34:55.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:56. > :35:03.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:04. > :35:05.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:06. > :35:09.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:10. > :35:13.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:14. > :35:17.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:18. > :35:22.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:23. > :35:26.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:27. > :35:32.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:33. > :35:38.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:39. > :35:42.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:43. > :35:45.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:46. > :35:51.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:52. > :35:55.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:56. > :35:59.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:36:00. > :36:03.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:04. > :36:07.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:08. > :36:11.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:12. > :36:15.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:16. > :36:19.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:20. > :36:24.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:25. > :36:27.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:28. > :36:32.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:33. > :36:37.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:38. > :36:41.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:42. > :36:44.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:45. > :36:48.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:49. > :36:52.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:53. > :36:56.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:57. > :37:00.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:37:01. > :37:04.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:05. > :37:09.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:10. > :37:12.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:13. > :37:17.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:18. > :37:20.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:21. > :37:29.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:30. > :37:33.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:34. > :37:37.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:38. > :37:42.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:43. > :37:45.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:46. > :37:50.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:51. > :37:56.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:57. > :38:01.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:02. > :38:04.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:05. > :38:10.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:11. > :38:14.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:15. > :38:17.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:18. > :38:25.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:26. > :38:29.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:30. > :38:33.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:34. > :38:38.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:39. > :38:49.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:50. > :38:52.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:38:53. > :38:54.In a few minutes, what will triggering Article 50 mean
:38:55. > :39:02.for Wales, and what role will we play in Brexit?
:39:03. > :39:04.But first the Welsh Labour Party is meeting in Llandudno this weekend.
:39:05. > :39:06.In his speech, Carwyn Jones mentioned the elections,
:39:07. > :39:09.the NHS and a new idea, a fair pay commission.
:39:10. > :39:14.But when I met him I began by asking about his reaction to the attack
:39:15. > :39:32.People are inevitably on their guard. Sadly, it shows how much
:39:33. > :39:39.damage is possible to do with a car and a knife, without explosives and
:39:40. > :39:42.without firearms and it shows we always have to be on our guard. It
:39:43. > :39:49.is difficult to try and spot somebody who might be thinking of
:39:50. > :39:52.causing the mayhem that occurred, it is difficult when you do not know
:39:53. > :39:57.what they are thinking. Intelligence meet its tips you so far. Let's go
:39:58. > :40:08.through some of the main elements of the speech. You had some extra
:40:09. > :40:12.money. The very emotive subject got a very strong response in the
:40:13. > :40:16.conference hall. Some transport announcements. Tell me about this
:40:17. > :40:23.fair pay commission and what you want to achieve with it. There is
:40:24. > :40:27.not a lot of detail. What we found knocking doors during the referendum
:40:28. > :40:35.is that people weren't happy with their job security and they felt
:40:36. > :40:38.they didn't have pensions, they remember their parents having more
:40:39. > :40:41.security and they say someone is to blame for this. If you look at
:40:42. > :40:47.unemployment figures in Wales, we do not have a problem but that is not
:40:48. > :40:52.something that we can just ignore. What we do have an issue with his
:40:53. > :40:58.people's job security, low wages and we have to start dealing with that.
:40:59. > :41:01.The next stage, setting up the commission, the unions and the
:41:02. > :41:05.employers working together to him -- identify how we can put more money
:41:06. > :41:11.into people's pockets and deliver more secure jobs closer to home. You
:41:12. > :41:18.can't possibly... No one can possibly disagree with any of this
:41:19. > :41:25.but the possibility the macro problem is the pay levels are in the
:41:26. > :41:30.gift of the private sector. True, but we have major infrastructure
:41:31. > :41:35.projects in Wales at the moment. They are important levers in
:41:36. > :41:41.delivering skills, training, higher wages. It is not simply what you do
:41:42. > :41:45.with the tax system. In the 1990s, a lot of well-paid jobs in Wales were
:41:46. > :41:48.replaced by unskilled low paid jobs and even though unemployment figures
:41:49. > :41:52.went down, incomes went down as well. We are still dealing with that
:41:53. > :41:56.legacy. It is not good enough to say that is what happened then, we want
:41:57. > :41:59.to make sure that having brought unemployment down, we now look at
:42:00. > :42:06.improving people's wages, that is next. Claiming credit for saving the
:42:07. > :42:13.Welsh steel industry, that is a heck of a claim, isn't it? We worked with
:42:14. > :42:19.the unions, seminars, MPs, local councils, and we worked with Tata
:42:20. > :42:27.Steel. The organisation missing from the jigsaw was the UK Government.
:42:28. > :42:34.What would macro when David Cameron was... All the work that was done,
:42:35. > :42:37.working with Tata Steel, though in fairness were a responsive company,
:42:38. > :42:41.all the work that was done with the unions and the community, that was
:42:42. > :42:49.done bias. With all due respect, there are huge global issues at
:42:50. > :42:56.stake. To take sole response ready for saving the Welsh steel industry,
:42:57. > :42:59.come on. We put money on the table. We worked with Tata Steel week in
:43:00. > :43:04.week out. I met them all over the world just to show how important we
:43:05. > :43:08.saw the Welsh steel industry as being. One thing we asked the UK
:43:09. > :43:15.Government was to do was to reduce UK energy prices. They are the
:43:16. > :43:21.amongst the highest in Europe. Higher than Germany or Spain. They
:43:22. > :43:29.could not deliver that. Waiting times are going down, you said.
:43:30. > :43:37.Where are they going down? A, for example. Response rates, going down.
:43:38. > :43:47.It was said the Welsh NHS was worse and all of a sudden... If we look at
:43:48. > :43:54.what is happening in England, the situation is worse in England.
:43:55. > :44:02.Social care, we spend 6% more on social care per head than England
:44:03. > :44:05.do. Here we are. We find now we are making sure with the announcements
:44:06. > :44:10.we have made today, more money goes into social caring Wales. There has
:44:11. > :44:15.not been a substantial reduction across the board in waiting times.
:44:16. > :44:18.We have seen a substantial difference, there is no question
:44:19. > :44:26.about that. Independent studies have taken place. Two years ago, an
:44:27. > :44:29.attempt was made by the then UK Government to suggest the Welsh NHS
:44:30. > :44:34.was useless. It was not the case at all. Waiting times are still
:44:35. > :44:45.substantially longer in Wales than in England. In some areas, yes.
:44:46. > :44:48.Cancer performances better. And we have done that even as the money
:44:49. > :44:53.coming into Wales and the UK Government has been hammered. Big
:44:54. > :44:58.focus, council elections. You are in control in 12 out of 22. Someone
:44:59. > :45:01.told me if you retain control in eight or nine, that would be a good
:45:02. > :45:05.night for you. Would you be happy with that? I remember this debate
:45:06. > :45:12.last year with the assembly elections. We did a lot better. How
:45:13. > :45:17.do we do that? Clear message, stand on your record, listen, work hard.
:45:18. > :45:21.That is exactly what we have been doing in these council elections. We
:45:22. > :45:24.want to do as well as we can and that means holding what we have at
:45:25. > :45:29.the very least and saying to people, look what Labour councils have
:45:30. > :45:32.delivered across Wales. Look at the economic growth, the houses being
:45:33. > :45:37.built. I am more than happy to stand on that record. How concerned are
:45:38. > :45:44.you about the divisions within the party at Westminster level? They do
:45:45. > :45:52.not help. No one can argue it is helpful. In Wales, we do not have
:45:53. > :45:55.that but we can have a debate within the party, that is part of a natural
:45:56. > :46:01.democratic process but clearly, where you have quite severe
:46:02. > :46:04.arguments between people in Westminster, that is not going to
:46:05. > :46:10.help the party. That is why we need to see a sense of unity there that
:46:11. > :46:14.we see in Wales. I always ask you this question, you have just turned
:46:15. > :46:21.50, you have set yourself you have been in reflective mood. How long
:46:22. > :46:25.are you going to go on for? People try and read what I have said and
:46:26. > :46:29.read something into it. I have just turned 50. I am much younger than
:46:30. > :46:35.Theresa May and David Cameron. There is a lot of work to do. Particularly
:46:36. > :46:39.with Brexit. I am still as enthusiastic as I ever was. I have
:46:40. > :46:44.given no thought as to when I will stand down. There has been a sense
:46:45. > :46:49.that you will stand down once you have done ten years. In other words,
:46:50. > :46:56.you will not fight another assembly election campaign. I have only just
:46:57. > :46:58.come through the loss. I am focused on delivering the best deal for
:46:59. > :47:03.Wales with Brexit. That will be hugely important. The last thing
:47:04. > :47:07.that should happen is they should be a sudden change of government in
:47:08. > :47:12.Wales. People who have been there for a while and to have seen what
:47:13. > :47:18.has happened in the past, we can get to a point where we have a sensible
:47:19. > :47:21.Brexit. First Minister, thank you very much.
:47:22. > :47:23.You heard Carwyn Jones there talking about Brexit.
:47:24. > :47:25.This week the UK will let Brussels know, officially,
:47:26. > :47:31.But what will triggering Article 50 mean for Wales and what kind
:47:32. > :47:40.Bethan Lewis now on that all important letter.
:47:41. > :47:47.This week, it is all about the letter. The letter that will arrive
:47:48. > :47:52.on the desk of the European Council president in Brussels. The letter
:47:53. > :47:57.that triggers Article 50 and begins the formal process of Wales and the
:47:58. > :48:01.UK leaving the European Union. Everyone knows it has been coming.
:48:02. > :48:06.Theresa May said months ago that she would send the Article 50 letter to
:48:07. > :48:09.the European Council president by the end of March and that is when
:48:10. > :48:13.the clock starts ticking, with two years to work out exactly how this
:48:14. > :48:19.most complicated of divorces will happen. A Spitfire greets you when
:48:20. > :48:26.you arrive at this company near Bridgend. It employs around 150
:48:27. > :48:30.people making ground support equipment for dozens of airlines and
:48:31. > :48:40.governments across the world. Working with Nato and the United
:48:41. > :48:46.Nations. Some of these stairs are going to Japan. And some of them are
:48:47. > :48:49.going to Luton airport. Owner Duncan Barber was a guest at a roundtable
:48:50. > :48:53.discussion with the Prime Minister when she visited South Wales on
:48:54. > :48:58.Monday. He voted to remain in the European Union last June but now he
:48:59. > :49:08.is optimistic about Brexit. It was a shock. And I think afterwards, there
:49:09. > :49:13.was a lot of uncertainty. But since then, I think as the government has
:49:14. > :49:20.got its act together, the government has surprised the nation, there is a
:49:21. > :49:24.growing confidence. I am positive. Very positive. But we have got to
:49:25. > :49:28.get Lee and we have got to deliver and we have got to deliver
:49:29. > :49:32.competitively and as always for the United Kingdom, to the highest
:49:33. > :49:42.quality. For farmers, the talks ahead will be crucial. This farmer
:49:43. > :49:47.'s main business is goats milk. Gary wanted to stay in the European
:49:48. > :49:51.Union, though many farmers did not. I think there has been a lot of
:49:52. > :49:55.misinformation. And it is quite hard to see the wood for the trees
:49:56. > :50:00.really. We have not seen what is going to be the state of play for
:50:01. > :50:05.agriculture, so it is a bit of a time of uncertainty. Welsh farming
:50:06. > :50:10.is heavily dependent on funding from the European Union and on exporting
:50:11. > :50:14.to its markets. Over 90% of Welsh meat is exported to the European
:50:15. > :50:19.Union and an assembly committee report says there are grave risk for
:50:20. > :50:23.Welsh agriculture if the UK fails to agree a trade deal with the European
:50:24. > :50:27.Union. The cherries a Brexit enthusiast but has concerns about
:50:28. > :50:31.what is ahead. What we as a committee want to ensure is access
:50:32. > :50:37.to the single market because in the agricultural sector, which is
:50:38. > :50:42.important for Wales, tariffs would be very high. 40 or 60% for some
:50:43. > :50:46.products. Avoiding those will be very important for the future of
:50:47. > :50:51.agriculture in Wales. In Abergavenny town centre, people have had nine
:50:52. > :50:53.months to get used to the idea of leaving the European Union, with
:50:54. > :51:00.only days until the practicalities get started. In last June 's
:51:01. > :51:04.referendum, the vote in Monmouthshire was closer than in any
:51:05. > :51:08.other part of Wales. It was virtually 50-50, with a small
:51:09. > :51:12.majority for remain. But with the process of surely about to start,
:51:13. > :51:18.how do people here feel about it now? We have got to get on with it.
:51:19. > :51:24.At the end of the day, I to remain. But they are going, so we are going.
:51:25. > :51:31.I voted out but I wish we hadn't. I am worried. We won't have as many
:51:32. > :51:36.nurses, and things like this. It is all going wrong. Back in the
:51:37. > :51:41.factory, Duncan Barbour feels there are opportunities ahead now the
:51:42. > :51:46.direction of travel has been set. Now the hard work begins and when it
:51:47. > :51:51.drops, the contents of the letter will begin the process assists --
:51:52. > :51:53.offsetting Wales' economic future for decades to come.
:51:54. > :51:56.Joining me now to talk about what this all means for Wales
:51:57. > :51:58.are the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood and the Welsh
:51:59. > :52:02.Conservative leader, Andrew RT Davies.
:52:03. > :52:08.Let me start with you, Leanne Wood. The phoney war is over and we are
:52:09. > :52:12.about to start this process. You fought a good fight to try and stop
:52:13. > :52:16.is getting to this stage. Does Plaid Cymru need to change the tone with
:52:17. > :52:21.which it approaches this subject? Plaid Cymru is always going to
:52:22. > :52:24.advocate the Welsh National Mining test. What is in the best interest
:52:25. > :52:31.of Wales is what we will champion at all times. Up until now and beyond
:52:32. > :52:34.now even, we still have no idea what is really going to be in this
:52:35. > :52:42.Article 50 letter. The key thing for Wales is that we stop any kind of
:52:43. > :52:46.extreme Tory Brexit, a hard Brexit that will pull us out of the single
:52:47. > :52:52.market. We have said very clearly that it is in Wales' best interests
:52:53. > :53:00.to retain our single market membership. Good to are exported
:53:01. > :53:04.into the European Union, 67% of everything we export from Wales goal
:53:05. > :53:08.to the European Union and it is 90% if you look at agricultural
:53:09. > :53:14.products. The membership of that market is very important. I see the
:53:15. > :53:18.list and we have had it for months. But the process is now starting. The
:53:19. > :53:22.danger is you could appear irrelevant because the reality will
:53:23. > :53:27.be happening now over the next 18 months. To what extent do you change
:53:28. > :53:32.things? But we still don't know what will happen. And it is a two-way
:53:33. > :53:35.process. Whatever the Prime Minister decides to take into those
:53:36. > :53:39.negotiations, she has to be prepared to compromise because that is the
:53:40. > :53:44.nature of negotiations and there is another side. There are 27 states
:53:45. > :53:49.that will have a position as well. Whatever is in the letter, we have
:53:50. > :53:55.to expect movement on that overtime. To what extent will you change your
:53:56. > :54:01.tone as well? What has been branded the sunny uplands metric post
:54:02. > :54:06.Brexit. If we get a bad deal, will you call it a bad deal or will you
:54:07. > :54:12.be so desperate to justify the league position, you will take
:54:13. > :54:15.whatever we get? Not at all. It is about the national interest. I would
:54:16. > :54:19.suggest the national interest of Wales was set on June the 23rd when
:54:20. > :54:22.the majority of Welsh people voted for us to renegotiate our
:54:23. > :54:27.relationship with Europe and come out of Europe. That is the national
:54:28. > :54:30.interest of Wales. On Wednesday, Article 50 is going to be evoked and
:54:31. > :54:34.the negotiations start and it is correct to point out that it is a
:54:35. > :54:36.two-way negotiation. Everything has been focused on what the
:54:37. > :54:40.Conservative government in Westminster along with the devolved
:54:41. > :54:44.administrations... Theresa May has been in Wales five times since she
:54:45. > :54:48.has been Prime Minister. There is extensive dialogue set out but we
:54:49. > :54:51.also need to know what the European Union wants and there is no
:54:52. > :54:57.coherence with the outside of the argument. A bad deal, walk away from
:54:58. > :55:00.it? I don't think we will get a bad deal? There is a great opportunity
:55:01. > :55:05.to engage economic tea, socially and culturally with Europe. This is
:55:06. > :55:09.about as taking the decisions in this country and bringing
:55:10. > :55:12.sovereignty back to this country so those decisions are taken by the
:55:13. > :55:17.politicians elected in the United Kingdom. I have seen very little
:55:18. > :55:20.evidence of the Prime Minister really listening to the needs of
:55:21. > :55:26.Wales. We have not had any sense when she has turned up... She is
:55:27. > :55:30.delivering what people want, which is to leave the European Union. But
:55:31. > :55:34.we are talking about how we leave the European now. We accept the
:55:35. > :55:38.result and the result is accepted by everybody. The question is how we
:55:39. > :55:42.leave and we have had very little detail from the Prime Minister or
:55:43. > :55:50.evidence that she has actually consulted and listened to the Wales
:55:51. > :55:53.position. It is about how much information we actually get. You
:55:54. > :55:58.must realise she does not want to give a running commentary but she
:55:59. > :56:02.cannot just stay silent for 18 months and expect us to accept
:56:03. > :56:07.whatever we get. She has been the Prime Minister for nine months. She
:56:08. > :56:10.has organised her government around these negotiations, so there are
:56:11. > :56:15.departments in Whitehall dedicated to the negotiations and also she has
:56:16. > :56:22.included the devolved administrations and had extensive
:56:23. > :56:26.discussions along with the Secretary of State and I fully expect Leanne
:56:27. > :56:28.Wood to take a political position that is trying to rubbish those
:56:29. > :56:35.negotiations but one simple point, the Welsh government paper talks
:56:36. > :56:41.about participation. I have tried to understand what that means. Carwyn
:56:42. > :56:44.Jones is very vague on this. Leanne Wood has talked about having full
:56:45. > :56:51.access and membership of the single market, which she said in her
:56:52. > :56:56.conference speech. Labours official position is they have a blank sheet
:56:57. > :57:02.of paper. That is their official position. But the Tories are
:57:03. > :57:05.prepared to walk away from the single market entirely and operate
:57:06. > :57:09.under World Trade Organisation rules. That would be disastrous for
:57:10. > :57:14.the farming industry and for Welsh manufacturers as well. These are the
:57:15. > :57:19.kind of guarantees that Plaid Cymru MPs had been trying to seek through
:57:20. > :57:22.the process. Guarantees about our funding, about those European Union
:57:23. > :57:26.citizens living here and we have had nothing. We have had no sense from
:57:27. > :57:31.the Prime Minister and her team that she is listening to the needs
:57:32. > :57:34.outlined in that white Paper jointly presented by the Welsh Government
:57:35. > :57:40.and Plaid Cymru. The Prime Minister in her speech in Sophia Gardens was
:57:41. > :57:47.talking specifically about workers' rights. She can talk about what she
:57:48. > :57:52.likes. You can't guarantee your own position at the moment. You are
:57:53. > :57:58.talking about... You want independence for Wales. That is
:57:59. > :58:01.hardly giving... Hardly giving clarity and offering leadership. The
:58:02. > :58:05.Prime Minister is offering leadership and she has moved her
:58:06. > :58:13.government to be on a negotiating footing for the next two years. What
:58:14. > :58:18.should the red lines be? Should the red line be the World Trade
:58:19. > :58:20.Organisation rules? Tariffs would go up significantly, potentially
:58:21. > :58:25.devastating for the farming industry. The red line is that
:58:26. > :58:28.Parliament and the assemblies of the United Kingdom have sovereignty on
:58:29. > :58:32.the issues and ultimately that is what the red line has to be because
:58:33. > :58:35.that is what we voted on. All the negotiations will revolve around
:58:36. > :58:40.that and actually having access and agreement on the single market could
:58:41. > :58:43.be relatively easy because most trade negotiations revolve around
:58:44. > :58:47.setting standards and conformity around goods. We have those
:58:48. > :58:52.standards, we have at conformity, so there is not those big debate to be
:58:53. > :58:58.had. If Europe want to engage positively, which I hope they will,
:58:59. > :59:02.5 million jobs depend with won-macro on trade with Britain, if the Irish
:59:03. > :59:09.beef market does not have access to Britain, it will collapse. So there
:59:10. > :59:14.are negotiating positions on both sides of this. And ultimately if
:59:15. > :59:17.there are sensibilities on both sides, we can get a good agreement
:59:18. > :59:22.and we can move, as you said, to those sunny uplands. Leanne Wood,
:59:23. > :59:27.the red line for the primaries there has to be ending free movement of
:59:28. > :59:32.labour as we know it. We have outlined a number of guarantees we
:59:33. > :59:33.seek. There are questions about workers' rights, environmental
:59:34. > :59:47.protections, access to the free market. No tariffs on goods coming
:59:48. > :59:51.in to the UK. We have put forward that says it would mean that Wales
:59:52. > :59:55.would operate like a Norwegian system, where free movement would
:59:56. > :59:59.still be there, particularly for students and so on but there would
:00:00. > :00:03.be an element of linking that to work, to make sure that we don't
:00:04. > :00:08.lose vital staff within our health service and manufacturing industry.
:00:09. > :00:13.There are clear guarantees that we have said Wales needs and we have
:00:14. > :00:19.had nothing in terms of feedback as to what those guarantees will be.
:00:20. > :00:31.Strippers all away. -- strip this all away. It is the key point, can
:00:32. > :00:35.she achieve it? I believe she can. Isn't that what the former Prime
:00:36. > :00:42.Minister tried to achieve in his negotiations prior to leaving? How
:00:43. > :00:46.on earth would we -- would it be sensible for the European Union to
:00:47. > :00:52.agree to those terms after the UK has voted to leave when they were
:00:53. > :00:56.not prepared to do it before. That is the key point. Why would they
:00:57. > :01:01.accept that? They cannot make it too easy. The debate and discussion has
:01:02. > :01:05.moved on from one David Cameron was going to Brussels. When you look at
:01:06. > :01:09.the referendum that is happening in Turkey and the potential influx of
:01:10. > :01:12.migrants over the summer and refugees as well, there is now a
:01:13. > :01:17.dynamic of work in Europe that actually says we cannot... If they
:01:18. > :01:21.do continue as they are, the whole edifice will implode. Ultimately,
:01:22. > :01:24.there is a critical way land a political understanding that things
:01:25. > :01:29.need to change. I do not accept that. The refugee crisis has been
:01:30. > :01:33.going on for a long time. People are dead in the Mediterranean Sea on a
:01:34. > :01:37.daily basis in large numbers. There has been little political will from
:01:38. > :01:40.anyone to do with that. I have to leave it there at that point.
:01:41. > :01:55.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:56. > :02:12.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:13. > :02:15.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:16. > :02:19.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:20. > :02:21.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:22. > :02:24.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:25. > :02:26.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:27. > :02:29.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:30. > :02:35.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:36. > :02:40.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:41. > :02:48.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:49. > :02:51.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:52. > :02:55.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:56. > :02:58.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:59. > :03:17.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:18. > :03:21.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:22. > :03:25.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:26. > :03:32.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:33. > :03:35.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:36. > :03:41.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:42. > :03:47.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:48. > :03:51.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:52. > :03:54.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:55. > :04:00.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:04:01. > :04:03.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:04. > :04:08.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:09. > :04:11.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:12. > :04:29.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:30. > :04:33.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:34. > :04:36.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:37. > :04:38.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:39. > :04:41.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:42. > :04:43.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:44. > :04:45.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:46. > :04:48.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:49. > :04:50.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:51. > :04:54.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:55. > :05:00.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:05:01. > :05:04.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:05. > :05:09.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:10. > :05:14.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:15. > :05:20.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:21. > :05:23.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:24. > :05:29.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:30. > :05:33.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:34. > :05:40.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:41. > :05:45.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:46. > :05:51.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:52. > :05:54.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:55. > :06:00.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:06:01. > :06:05.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:06. > :06:12.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:13. > :06:16.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:17. > :06:20.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:21. > :06:23.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:24. > :06:28.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:29. > :06:32.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:33. > :06:35.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:36. > :06:39.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:40. > :06:52.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:53. > :06:55.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:56. > :06:58.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:59. > :07:00.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:07:01. > :07:03.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:04. > :07:07.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:08. > :07:11.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:12. > :07:14.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:15. > :07:18.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:19. > :07:25.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:26. > :07:29.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:30. > :07:33.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:34. > :07:37.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:38. > :07:42.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:43. > :07:45.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:46. > :07:51.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:52. > :08:04.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:05. > :08:07.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:08. > :08:10.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:11. > :08:13.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:14. > :08:15.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:16. > :08:19.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:20. > :08:23.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:24. > :08:27.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:28. > :08:30.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:31. > :08:35.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:36. > :08:38.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:39. > :08:42.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:43. > :08:47.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:48. > :08:51.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:52. > :08:54.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:55. > :08:59.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:09:00. > :09:03.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:04. > :09:06.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:07. > :09:12.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:13. > :09:18.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:19. > :09:23.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:24. > :09:26.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:27. > :09:29.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:30. > :09:33.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:34. > :09:45.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:46. > :09:50.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:51. > :09:54.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:55. > :09:59.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:10:00. > :10:08.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:09. > :10:13.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:14. > :10:18.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:19. > :10:22.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:23. > :10:26.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:27. > :10:30.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:31. > :10:35.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:36. > :10:39.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:40. > :10:44.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:45. > :10:49.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:50. > :10:54.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:55. > :10:57.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:58. > :11:16.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:17. > :11:20.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:21. > :11:22.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:23. > :11:25.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:26. > :11:27.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:28. > :11:30.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:31. > :11:33.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:34. > :11:35.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:36. > :11:42.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:43. > :11:46.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:47. > :11:50.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:51. > :11:55.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:56. > :12:00.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:12:01. > :12:04.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:05. > :12:08.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:09. > :12:11.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:12. > :12:18.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:19. > :12:20.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:21. > :12:25.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:26. > :12:29.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:30. > :12:35.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:36. > :12:42.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:43. > :12:46.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:47. > :12:50.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:51. > :12:53.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:54. > :12:56.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:57. > :13:00.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:13:01. > :13:04.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:05. > :13:08.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:09. > :13:13.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:14. > :13:17.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:20.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:21. > :13:22.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:23. > :13:23.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:24. > :13:26.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:27. > :13:28.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:29. > :13:34.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:35. > :13:38.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's