:00:35. > :00:38.It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four
:00:42. > :00:44.extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up
:00:45. > :00:46.to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just
:00:47. > :00:52.Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -
:00:53. > :00:54.how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger
:00:55. > :01:01.I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.
:01:02. > :01:05.And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first
:01:06. > :01:09.round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact
:01:10. > :01:13.on the EU and Brexit of this most unpredictable of contests?
:01:14. > :01:15.Later in the programme: For the first time since
:01:16. > :01:17.the election was called, the leaders of the five main
:01:18. > :01:20.parties in Wales will be here live to tell me why
:01:21. > :01:22.Will the Remain majority punish the Tories for the decision?
:01:23. > :01:25.Or feel they may not like it but the Tories
:01:26. > :01:39.And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap
:01:40. > :01:43.general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and
:01:44. > :01:44.brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly
:01:45. > :01:47.Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this
:01:48. > :01:49.morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank
:01:50. > :01:51.holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints
:01:52. > :01:54.of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be
:01:55. > :02:00.getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this
:02:01. > :02:05.morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister
:02:06. > :02:08.if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike
:02:09. > :02:10.on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,
:02:11. > :02:14.give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,
:02:15. > :02:17.tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you
:02:18. > :02:26.would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back
:02:27. > :02:28.to the whole point? Is the objective
:02:29. > :02:32.to start more strikes that may kill many innocent
:02:33. > :02:34.people, as has happened? Do you think killing
:02:35. > :02:36.the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not
:02:37. > :02:45.being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender
:02:46. > :02:48.in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that
:02:49. > :02:52.the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of
:02:53. > :02:55.Isis. So you've got to think
:02:56. > :03:02.about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his
:03:03. > :03:06.reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been
:03:07. > :03:11.freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of
:03:12. > :03:14.questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause
:03:15. > :03:18.to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut
:03:19. > :03:21.straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the
:03:22. > :03:25.letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister
:03:26. > :03:30.when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --
:03:31. > :03:34.or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he
:03:35. > :03:37.should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines
:03:38. > :03:41.and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question
:03:42. > :03:45.so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make
:03:46. > :03:51.these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or
:03:52. > :03:55.damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the
:03:56. > :03:58.sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's
:03:59. > :04:02.going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they
:04:03. > :04:06.will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't
:04:07. > :04:12.press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to
:04:13. > :04:16.deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think
:04:17. > :04:21.most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the
:04:22. > :04:25.country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would
:04:26. > :04:30.consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been
:04:31. > :04:33.on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's
:04:34. > :04:36.campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr
:04:37. > :04:40.let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or
:04:41. > :04:43.SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral
:04:44. > :04:49.damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the
:04:50. > :04:53.assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral
:04:54. > :04:56.damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the
:04:57. > :05:02.question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,
:05:03. > :05:05.the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It
:05:06. > :05:09.turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to
:05:10. > :05:12.be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about
:05:13. > :05:17.Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but
:05:18. > :05:20.not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course
:05:21. > :05:23.the Labour Party were forced soon after that interview to put out a
:05:24. > :05:29.statement saying it is Labour Party policy to renew Trident. So where
:05:30. > :05:34.are we? Do we know what the party's policy is? It is to renew Trident
:05:35. > :05:39.but he has started this review which involves looking at it all again. We
:05:40. > :05:44.know he is a unilateralist to start with but whether he can force this
:05:45. > :05:48.through is dubious. Does it matter, though, if the party policy is in
:05:49. > :05:52.favour of Trident, if the leader is not? The potential Prime Minister is
:05:53. > :05:55.not? They split three ways when they went to vote on it in the Commons.
:05:56. > :06:00.The party agreed they were pro-Trident and when it came to the
:06:01. > :06:04.vote they split three ways. I think it's difficult for them, it's always
:06:05. > :06:08.been a really difficult issue for Labour. The question is whether you
:06:09. > :06:12.want to seal off your negatives, whether you really want to try and
:06:13. > :06:15.reach out to people. There are an awful lot of people who will like
:06:16. > :06:21.what he said, there are an awful lot of people that think we have been
:06:22. > :06:24.involved in terrible wars, we have wasted a lot of money and blood and
:06:25. > :06:29.let's just get back from the whole thing, let's retreat from the world
:06:30. > :06:32.and not try punching above our weight. There is something to be
:06:33. > :06:37.said for that and it is a reasonable argument. He's been true to himself
:06:38. > :06:40.on this. I think he is and Polly is right, lots of people will agree
:06:41. > :06:44.with him, not enough to win a general election, the latest ComRes
:06:45. > :06:48.poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour on 25 and as my colleague James
:06:49. > :06:51.Forsyth in the Spectator said if this was a boxing match it would
:06:52. > :06:53.have been stopped by now by the revelry. We are not stopping, we are
:06:54. > :06:54.going on. So the political parties have had
:06:55. > :06:56.to move into election mode Stand by for battle buses,
:06:57. > :07:00.mail shots and your social media timeline being bombarded
:07:01. > :07:02.by political propoganda. But none of this comes cheap -
:07:03. > :07:07.Adam's been doing his sums. Democracy is priceless but those
:07:08. > :07:12.planes, trains and automobiles used in the last election cost money
:07:13. > :07:15.and we know exactly how much, thanks to the Electoral
:07:16. > :07:20.Commission database. The Conservatives flew David Cameron
:07:21. > :07:24.to every part of the UK in one day on a private plane costing ?29,000,
:07:25. > :07:30.in-flight meals extra. They shelled out ?1.2 million
:07:31. > :07:36.for adverts on Facebook. The most expensive item was their
:07:37. > :07:40.election guru Lynton Crosby. They bought ?2.4 million worth
:07:41. > :07:43.of advice and research from his firm Labour's biggest expenditure
:07:44. > :07:50.was on good old-fashioned leaflets, costing ?7.4 million
:07:51. > :07:53.to print and deliver. Hope they didn't go straight
:07:54. > :07:58.into the recycling. Cheap for all the
:07:59. > :08:06.enjoyment it gave us. To turn a normal minibus
:08:07. > :08:09.into Harriet Harman's pink bus Nick Clegg toured the country doing
:08:10. > :08:16.all manner of stunts transported although the party got a grand's
:08:17. > :08:28.discount when it broke down. Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage
:08:29. > :08:30.was accompanied by bodyguards Nicola Sturgeon's chopper
:08:31. > :08:39.cost the SNP ?35,450. Plaid Cymru spent just over
:08:40. > :08:43.?1,000 on media training And the Greens spent ?6,912
:08:44. > :08:57.promoting their tweets. It adds up to a grand total
:08:58. > :09:01.for all the parties of ?37,560,039. Jabbing at my calculator that works
:09:02. > :09:07.out at less than ?1 per voter. Adam Fleming there -
:09:08. > :09:12.and joining me now is the man responsible for the Conservative
:09:13. > :09:16.election campaigns - for the locals next month
:09:17. > :09:24.and the general election in June - Welcome to the programme. The Crown
:09:25. > :09:27.Prosecution Service is reviewing evidence from 14 police forces that
:09:28. > :09:32.your party breached election spending rules on multiple occasions
:09:33. > :09:38.in the last election. What are you going to do differently this time?
:09:39. > :09:44.Well, the battle buses are part of the National campaign spend. You saw
:09:45. > :09:47.them just on the shot that you did, all three parties had those battle
:09:48. > :09:51.buses so that's why we believe they were part of the national spend and
:09:52. > :09:54.it was declared that way. At least 30 people in your party, MPs and
:09:55. > :09:59.agents, being investigated because they may not have been right to
:10:00. > :10:02.include it in the national spend. Are you saying you are going to do
:10:03. > :10:09.nothing differently this time? You asked me about last time and the way
:10:10. > :10:13.the position is... Was. I asked you about this time. We will take a
:10:14. > :10:20.careful count and make sure that everything that we do is within the
:10:21. > :10:23.law. But as I say, the last election, all three parties had
:10:24. > :10:28.battle buses. It is your party that above all has been investigated by
:10:29. > :10:33.14 police forces. You must surely be taking stock of that and working out
:10:34. > :10:37.how to do some things differently. You are being investigated because
:10:38. > :10:41.you put stuff on the National Ledger which should have been on the local
:10:42. > :10:45.constituency ledger. Are you looking at that again? All of the parties
:10:46. > :10:48.had battle buses and they all put them on their national spend. I
:10:49. > :10:53.don't think any of the parties put them on the local spend. The other
:10:54. > :10:56.battle buses were not full of their party activists. Your party stuffed
:10:57. > :11:02.these battle buses with activists and took them to constituencies.
:11:03. > :11:06.That's the difference. And I ask again, what is different this time?
:11:07. > :11:10.Are you going to run the risk of being investigated yet again? We
:11:11. > :11:15.believe that we fully compliant with the electoral law as it was. What
:11:16. > :11:20.will happen if one of these, or two or three or four or five of these 30
:11:21. > :11:26.people, Tory MPs, or agents running campaigns are charged during the
:11:27. > :11:30.campaign? As I say I believe we properly declared our election
:11:31. > :11:33.expenses. What happens if they are charged? You asking me a
:11:34. > :11:37.hypothetical question, the importance of this election is about
:11:38. > :11:41.who is in Downing Street in seven weeks' time. Let me clarify this,
:11:42. > :11:45.you maintain that in 2015 you did nothing wrong with how you allocated
:11:46. > :11:47.the cost and the activities of the battle buses and you would do
:11:48. > :11:52.exactly the same this time round? What we did at the last election we
:11:53. > :11:58.believe fully complied with the law. So the battle buses this time,
:11:59. > :12:01.stocked full of activists, will still be charged to the national
:12:02. > :12:09.campaign even when they go to local constituencies? Will they? We will
:12:10. > :12:13.be looking at the way we do it, there is new guidance from the
:12:14. > :12:17.Electoral Commission out and we will look at that guidance. It is not the
:12:18. > :12:21.guidance, it is the lawful stop the Electoral Commission said that, if
:12:22. > :12:24.you look at the report they did on us, they said there was one area
:12:25. > :12:28.where we had over claimed, over declared, and another area we had
:12:29. > :12:31.and declared. We haven't worked out what to do
:12:32. > :12:35.yet, have you? We will get on with the campaign and
:12:36. > :12:37.start the campaign and I'm looking forward to the campaign.
:12:38. > :12:41.I'm trying to work out of the campaign is going to be legal or not
:12:42. > :12:45.because last time it seems it could have been illegal.
:12:46. > :12:46.I am sure the campaign will be legal.
:12:47. > :12:51.You started the campaign warning about the prospect of, the coalition
:12:52. > :12:59.of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a post-election coalition with the SNP
:13:00. > :13:02.and so have the Lib Dems so who is going to be in this coalition?
:13:03. > :13:04.Vince Cable said he was looking towards a possible coalition trying
:13:05. > :13:07.to stop a Conservative government. Is not the leader of the Lib Dems.
:13:08. > :13:13.He's an important voice in the Lib Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see
:13:14. > :13:16.because of the Conservative Party is not re-elected with a strong
:13:17. > :13:19.majority, what will happen? There will be a coalition stopping us
:13:20. > :13:24.doing the things we need to do. Who will be in it? It will be a
:13:25. > :13:28.coalition of the Labour Party, the SNP and the Liberal party. They have
:13:29. > :13:31.ruled it out. I think they would not rule it out if that was the
:13:32. > :13:35.situation. Like Theresa May not ruling out an election and then
:13:36. > :13:39.changing her mind? The things the Prime Minister said were very clear,
:13:40. > :13:43.once she had served Article 50 there was an opportunity, as we know
:13:44. > :13:47.today, there is going to be the start of a new government formed in
:13:48. > :13:50.France and in September we have the German elections. So it was quite
:13:51. > :13:56.right that we didn't get ourselves boxed into a timetable. That is why
:13:57. > :14:00.the Prime Minister took the view that they should be a general
:14:01. > :14:03.election to give her full strength of an electoral mandate when it
:14:04. > :14:10.comes to those negotiations. What about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new
:14:11. > :14:14.bank holidays, good idea? I'm not... If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St
:14:15. > :14:19.we will have a permanent bank holiday of the United Kingdom. We
:14:20. > :14:25.will have fewer bank holidays of most other major nations, most about
:14:26. > :14:28.major wealthy nations. What about at least one more? Well, look, he's
:14:29. > :14:33.talked about four bank holidays. Today would be a bank holiday and
:14:34. > :14:37.next Monday would be a bank holiday and the other week was a bank
:14:38. > :14:41.holiday too. I don't think it's very well thought out. It sounded more to
:14:42. > :14:45.me something like you get in school mock elections rather than proper
:14:46. > :14:48.elections. Your party is the self-styled party of the workers and
:14:49. > :14:52.you have no plans to give the workers even one extra bank holiday?
:14:53. > :14:57.What we want to do is ensure Britain is a strong economy and building on
:14:58. > :15:01.the jobs that we have created since 2010. We were told that by reducing
:15:02. > :15:06.public expenditure unemployment in this country would go up,
:15:07. > :15:11.unemployment has gone down and the number of jobs have gone up
:15:12. > :15:14.substantially. But no more bank holidays? Well, we will make our
:15:15. > :15:18.manifesto in due course but I don't think four bank holidays held in
:15:19. > :15:24.April, March and November are very attractive to people. When Ed
:15:25. > :15:33.Miliband as leader of the Labour Party suggested the government
:15:34. > :15:37.should control energy prices by capping them, the Conservatives
:15:38. > :15:41.described that as almost Communist and central planning. Do still take
:15:42. > :15:45.that view? You'll see what we have to say on energy prices. I didn't
:15:46. > :15:50.you about that, I asked you if you take the view... The Prime Minister
:15:51. > :15:52.made a speech at the Conservative Spring conference in which she
:15:53. > :15:55.outlined her dissatisfaction about people who are kept locked on a
:15:56. > :15:58.standard tariff and those are the issues we will address in the next
:15:59. > :16:03.few weeks when the manifesto was published.
:16:04. > :16:09.Would that be an act of communism? You will need to see what we say
:16:10. > :16:16.when we set out the policies. It could be. You could put a Communist
:16:17. > :16:20.act into your manifesto? I don't think you'll find a Communist
:16:21. > :16:24.manifesto in a Conservative manifesto which will be launched...
:16:25. > :16:28.You are planning to control prices? We will address what we think is
:16:29. > :16:32.unfairness in the energy market. Mr Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this
:16:33. > :16:39.morning to sanction a drone strike. You heard us talking about it
:16:40. > :16:42.earlier against the leader of Islamic State if our intelligence
:16:43. > :16:47.services identified him. What would it achieve? When the Prime Minister
:16:48. > :16:51.gets certain advice in the national interests, she has to act been that.
:16:52. > :16:54.We've seen with Theresa May in her time as Home Secretary and Prime
:16:55. > :16:58.Minister, she's not afraid to take those very difficult decisions. What
:16:59. > :17:03.we say this morning from Jeremy Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance.
:17:04. > :17:10.I don't think that serves the country well. What would it achieve
:17:11. > :17:14.if we take out the head of Islamic State he's replaced by somebody
:17:15. > :17:19.else. It brings their organisation into difficulties. It undermines
:17:20. > :17:23.their organisation. It shows we'll take every measure to undo an
:17:24. > :17:27.organisation which has organised terrorism in different parts of
:17:28. > :17:29.Europe, the UK. I think it is absolutely right the Prime Minister
:17:30. > :17:34.is prepared to take those kind of measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he
:17:35. > :17:40.wasn't prepared to take that. Because he wasn't sure what it would
:17:41. > :17:44.achieve. The Obama administration launched hundreds of drone strikes
:17:45. > :17:50.in various war zones and we in the west are still under attack on a
:17:51. > :17:56.regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was what would it achieve? It would
:17:57. > :18:00.achieve a safer position for the UK overall. The war on terrorists. But
:18:01. > :18:06.the Westminster attack, Paris has just been attacked again? There's
:18:07. > :18:10.been attacks which have been stopped by the intelligence services. We
:18:11. > :18:14.must do all we can to support them. The question was about drone
:18:15. > :18:18.strikes. Whether it is drone strikes or other action, we have to be
:18:19. > :18:22.prepared to act. Let's move on to Brexit. It is the major reason the
:18:23. > :18:26.Prime Minister's called the election? Not the only within but
:18:27. > :18:30.the main reason? It is one of the reasons. Now we start the two-year
:18:31. > :18:36.negotiations and then a year afterwards. Also the way in which
:18:37. > :18:38.certain people said they would try to use in the House of Lords or
:18:39. > :18:46.House of Commons to prevent us making progress. I think you'll put
:18:47. > :18:51.in your manifesto, it is the Government's policy, the Brexit
:18:52. > :18:58.negotiating position will be no more freedom of movement. Leave the
:18:59. > :19:02.single market and no longer under the jurisdiction Europe. You expect
:19:03. > :19:08.every Tory MP to fight on that manifesto. What will you do with Ken
:19:09. > :19:12.Clarke and Anna? They will have fought on their manifesto. They will
:19:13. > :19:15.understand the Prime Minister has the authority of the ballot box
:19:16. > :19:20.behind them. Will they fight the election on these positions? I'm
:19:21. > :19:25.sure they'll fight the election supporting the election of a
:19:26. > :19:28.Conservative Government and it's manifesto will quite clearly set
:19:29. > :19:33.out... You know they're against these positions. Ken Clarke has a
:19:34. > :19:38.prod tradition of expressing a certain view. Overall, the party's
:19:39. > :19:41.manifesto, it is not just individuals like Ken Clarke, it is
:19:42. > :19:46.what happens as far as the House of Lords are concerned, people said
:19:47. > :19:50.they'd use the House of Lords to prevent certain measures. You're the
:19:51. > :19:55.party chairman, will it be possible for people like Ken Clarke to fight
:19:56. > :20:00.this election under the Conservative ticket without sub describing to all
:20:01. > :20:06.-- subscribing to all of these Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will
:20:07. > :20:10.fight as Conservative candidates. That wasn't my question. I know
:20:11. > :20:14.that. Will they be allowed to fight it on their own ticket and not
:20:15. > :20:18.subscribe to what is in your manifesto? The manifesto will be
:20:19. > :20:23.what the Conservative Party fights the General Election on. There will
:20:24. > :20:28.always be cases where people have had different views on different
:20:29. > :20:34.parts of the manifesto. That will be the guiding principles for the
:20:35. > :20:39.party. Philip Hammond says your election promises in 2015, in your
:20:40. > :20:43.manifesto not to raise taxes tied his hands when it came to managing
:20:44. > :20:48.the economy. Do you agree with him? No. The simple fact is we have to do
:20:49. > :20:53.the best things for the economy. We'll set out in our manifesto in a
:20:54. > :20:58.few weeks' time, what the policies will be for the next Parliament. Can
:20:59. > :21:03.I clarify, you don't agree with your Chancellor? What Philip was saying
:21:04. > :21:08.was some of the areas we wants to address as Chancellor, what the
:21:09. > :21:11.party will do, it will set out all the issues we're fighting on. It
:21:12. > :21:15.will set out clearly the choice we have in this country. That's the
:21:16. > :21:20.important thing. Let me put the question to you again. Philip
:21:21. > :21:24.Hammond said this week your election promise in 2015 not to raise taxes
:21:25. > :21:29.had tied his hands when it came to managing the economy. I ask you, do
:21:30. > :21:34.you agree with him? You said no. Philip expressed his view as to what
:21:35. > :21:39.he would like. What I'm saying is in a few weeks' time we'll set the
:21:40. > :21:43.manifesto which will set the policies, agreed with the the
:21:44. > :21:47.Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he determine what the economic part of
:21:48. > :21:52.the manifesto is? We'll talk about that in due course. Will you have a
:21:53. > :21:58.lock on the taxes that you locked in 2015 on income tax, VAT, national
:21:59. > :22:05.insurance? That will be decided. You'll see that when we publish the
:22:06. > :22:08.manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will you rule out the possibility taxes
:22:09. > :22:13.may have to rise under a future Conservative Party? Conservative
:22:14. > :22:19.Government. We've taken four million people out of tax. Now, on average,
:22:20. > :22:25.people are paying ?1200 less tax than they were on the same salaries
:22:26. > :22:28.in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative
:22:29. > :22:31.Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party
:22:32. > :22:37.which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.
:22:38. > :22:43.Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden
:22:44. > :22:49.as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level
:22:50. > :22:54.since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax
:22:55. > :22:57.burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more
:22:58. > :23:00.people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing
:23:01. > :23:05.economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you
:23:06. > :23:11.reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We
:23:12. > :23:16.have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start
:23:17. > :23:21.paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax
:23:22. > :23:26.rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax
:23:27. > :23:35.rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again
:23:36. > :23:36.between now and June Is France now about to make it
:23:37. > :23:40.a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies
:23:41. > :23:44.the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared
:23:45. > :23:46.in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean
:23:47. > :23:48.for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact
:23:49. > :24:08.on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting
:24:09. > :24:10.the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward
:24:11. > :24:16.to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De
:24:17. > :24:21.Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that
:24:22. > :24:25.no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the
:24:26. > :24:28.centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by
:24:29. > :24:36.the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected
:24:37. > :24:42.to anything and only started his own party
:24:43. > :24:45.a few months ago. And the far left in the form
:24:46. > :24:48.of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged
:24:49. > :24:51.in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the
:24:52. > :24:55.traditional governing parties is the centre-right's
:24:56. > :24:57.Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in
:24:58. > :25:01.the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid
:25:02. > :25:06.at generous public expense for a job I've just come across
:25:07. > :25:21.this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood
:25:22. > :25:24.of the French people. It's got the five main candidates
:25:25. > :25:27.for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,
:25:28. > :25:30.the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,
:25:31. > :25:33.and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,
:25:34. > :25:43.Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance
:25:44. > :25:46.of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates
:25:47. > :25:49.them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's
:25:50. > :25:55.going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that
:25:56. > :26:00.two of them may be President But the two of them may not find
:26:01. > :26:13.themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or
:26:14. > :26:27.woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing
:26:28. > :26:30.who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are
:26:31. > :26:37.the more you may be wrong. The country has largely
:26:38. > :26:42.stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,
:26:43. > :26:45.one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is
:26:46. > :26:49.the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come
:26:50. > :26:57.to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in
:26:58. > :27:03.particular the political elite. And an element of
:27:04. > :27:09.nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive
:27:10. > :27:13.in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in
:27:14. > :27:25.the French election. Identity and security has been
:27:26. > :27:28.as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries
:27:29. > :27:35.about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how
:27:36. > :27:40.to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of
:27:41. > :27:43.which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by
:27:44. > :27:54.the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before
:27:55. > :27:57.voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge
:27:58. > :28:09.victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon
:28:10. > :28:12.will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will
:28:13. > :28:16.not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the
:28:17. > :28:19.National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc
:28:20. > :28:25.Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French
:28:26. > :28:28.nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal
:28:29. > :28:32.discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace
:28:33. > :28:40.would represent an existential Brexit would simply become
:28:41. > :28:50.a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels
:28:51. > :28:54.and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from
:28:55. > :29:05.Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.
:29:06. > :29:09.Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist
:29:10. > :29:16.attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how
:29:17. > :29:20.that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this
:29:21. > :29:25.has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One
:29:26. > :29:29.policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd
:29:30. > :29:35.with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the
:29:36. > :29:41.election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a
:29:42. > :29:47.young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the
:29:48. > :29:53.terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was
:29:54. > :30:00.promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's
:30:01. > :30:06.one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But
:30:07. > :30:11.now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least
:30:12. > :30:18.at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might
:30:19. > :30:22.benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely
:30:23. > :30:27.anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she
:30:28. > :30:30.immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if
:30:31. > :30:35.she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in
:30:36. > :30:42.France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years
:30:43. > :30:47.ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan
:30:48. > :30:51.in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was
:30:52. > :30:55.asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream
:30:56. > :30:59.up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,
:31:00. > :31:02.that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened
:31:03. > :31:08.overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.
:31:09. > :31:13.Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the
:31:14. > :31:19.second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics
:31:20. > :31:22.will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange
:31:23. > :31:27.thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go
:31:28. > :31:31.anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger
:31:32. > :31:38.that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as
:31:39. > :31:42.for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people
:31:43. > :31:48.were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to
:31:49. > :31:54.change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will
:31:55. > :31:59.be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time
:32:00. > :32:00.tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your
:32:01. > :32:04.city. Now, the Green Party currently has
:32:05. > :32:07.one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June
:32:08. > :32:10.as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in
:32:11. > :32:13.the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign
:32:14. > :32:14.on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made
:32:15. > :32:16.a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young
:32:17. > :32:18.people they've been But one crucial way they've been
:32:19. > :32:24.betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous
:32:25. > :32:27.ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year
:32:28. > :32:31.on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does
:32:32. > :32:34.the environment need to be doing All the signs are there
:32:35. > :32:38.and it is young people who are going to be bearing
:32:39. > :32:40.the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important
:32:41. > :32:44.that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large
:32:45. > :32:47.but to young people in particular, I think climate change,
:32:48. > :32:49.the environment, looking after our precious resources,
:32:50. > :32:54.has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green
:32:55. > :33:08.MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.
:33:09. > :33:11.Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback
:33:12. > :33:15.cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would
:33:16. > :33:18.you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed
:33:19. > :33:22.manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so
:33:23. > :33:26.I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every
:33:27. > :33:31.party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last
:33:32. > :33:34.time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a
:33:35. > :33:40.position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would
:33:41. > :33:43.you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes
:33:44. > :33:49.for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount
:33:50. > :33:51.of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not
:33:52. > :33:58.entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000
:33:59. > :34:01.people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real
:34:02. > :34:05.focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on
:34:06. > :34:08.that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an
:34:09. > :34:11.enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from
:34:12. > :34:14.country to country and we need European corporation to make that
:34:15. > :34:20.successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of
:34:21. > :34:24.changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in
:34:25. > :34:29.taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the
:34:30. > :34:33.competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change
:34:34. > :34:38.the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.
:34:39. > :34:41.Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending
:34:42. > :34:45.programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.
:34:46. > :34:48.If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and
:34:49. > :34:52.also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10
:34:53. > :34:56.billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the
:34:57. > :34:59.upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a
:35:00. > :35:03.year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not
:35:04. > :35:08.vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on
:35:09. > :35:14.the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...
:35:15. > :35:19.People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above
:35:20. > :35:24.42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate
:35:25. > :35:28.changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion
:35:29. > :35:32.raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of
:35:33. > :35:37.40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would
:35:38. > :35:41.put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on
:35:42. > :35:45.lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,
:35:46. > :35:50.60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?
:35:51. > :35:55.It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you
:35:56. > :35:59.look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,
:36:00. > :36:02.longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also
:36:03. > :36:06.older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost
:36:07. > :36:10.anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The
:36:11. > :36:14.mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the
:36:15. > :36:18.Progressive Alliance coming? It is going well, I have heard of a lot of
:36:19. > :36:23.interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of
:36:24. > :36:28.progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,
:36:29. > :36:31.social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they
:36:32. > :36:36.are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has
:36:37. > :36:39.given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with
:36:40. > :36:43.backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small
:36:44. > :36:46.majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must
:36:47. > :36:49.come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using
:36:50. > :36:54.the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.
:36:55. > :36:57.Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the
:36:58. > :37:02.government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen
:37:03. > :37:05.otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the
:37:06. > :37:08.primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium
:37:09. > :37:12.government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that
:37:13. > :37:15.is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you
:37:16. > :37:19.accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical
:37:20. > :37:23.Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat
:37:24. > :37:25.to the country than Theresa May, she has shown herself to be an
:37:26. > :37:32.authoritarian leader and she has said she doesn't want to have
:37:33. > :37:34.dissidents, which I would say is reasonable opposition, and what we
:37:35. > :37:37.are suggesting at the moment is there is a way of avoiding that very
:37:38. > :37:39.hard Brexit and damage to public services. You'd be happy to pay the
:37:40. > :37:44.price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister? I do not see that as a
:37:45. > :37:48.price. People have the choice of Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as
:37:49. > :37:52.Prime Minister, that's the system that works. You would prefer Mr
:37:53. > :37:55.Corbyn? I would but votes are translated into seats and the
:37:56. > :38:07.Progressive Alliance is a step towards that.
:38:08. > :38:09.Hello and welcome once again to Sunday Politics Wales.
:38:10. > :38:11.Well, Theresa May's snap election caught almost everyone
:38:12. > :38:14.in the political world off guard, but now it's all systems
:38:15. > :38:28.In a few moments, the Welsh party leaders will go head
:38:29. > :38:30.to head for the first time since the election was called.
:38:31. > :38:32.Mark Williams who leads the Welsh Liberal Democrats
:38:33. > :38:34.is in Aberystwyth, and here with me in studio
:38:35. > :38:36.the Welsh Labour Leader, Carwyn Jones, Andrew RT Davies
:38:37. > :38:39.the Welsh Conservative leader is here, along with the leader
:38:40. > :38:41.of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, and Ukip's leader in
:38:42. > :38:44.But after the initial excitement what's
:38:45. > :38:46.We sent our reporter, Cemlyn Davies, straight
:38:47. > :38:50.to Downing Street to find out - but it might not be the one
:38:51. > :39:07.Yes, welcome to Downing Street in Newport.
:39:08. > :39:11.It may not be quite as glamorous as its Westminster namesake,
:39:12. > :39:15.there aren't any fancy gates or gangs of photographers
:39:16. > :39:18.waiting to snap the locals, but in a few weeks' time,
:39:19. > :39:21.the people who live here will have power to wield when they vote
:39:22. > :39:26.This street is in one of 25 Welsh Parliamentary seats
:39:27. > :39:33.The Conservatives have 11, following their best general
:39:34. > :39:35.election showing in Wales in a generation two years ago.
:39:36. > :39:41.The Liberal Democrats have one Welsh seat.
:39:42. > :39:45.So, what are the parties' chances this time around?
:39:46. > :39:49.A swing to the Conservatives will actually mean a good six
:39:50. > :39:51.or seven Labour seats are very much at risk.
:39:52. > :39:53.So for Labour it is very much a defensive job,
:39:54. > :39:56.they are trying to keep hold of the seats they've already got.
:39:57. > :39:58.Plaid Cymru might go for a few seats, they might throw
:39:59. > :40:03.It's quite a big win for them, they've only got three MPs
:40:04. > :40:05.in Parliament at the moment, if they can get a few more,
:40:06. > :40:09.The Conservatives will probably capitalise on the bits of Wales,
:40:10. > :40:11.particularly those that voted Leaving the referendum.
:40:12. > :40:17.Now they can say, well, we delivered the referendum for you,
:40:18. > :40:19.we've delivered Article 50, now vote for us to
:40:20. > :40:23.The Lib Dems lost two Welsh MPs in 2015 and, last year,
:40:24. > :40:25.the party was left with just one Assembly Member.
:40:26. > :40:30.I think it's #LibDemFightback all the way.
:40:31. > :40:34.The Lib Dems are very optimistic about this.
:40:35. > :40:36.They have selected candidates already, unlike any other party,
:40:37. > :40:40.The Lib Dems were the only ones that were anticipating a snap election.
:40:41. > :40:45.They are standing in local elections as well, so, like all parties,
:40:46. > :40:48.I think they will be seeking to stand candidates.
:40:49. > :40:53.Whether they are successful, it is difficult.
:40:54. > :40:55.They mostly claimed third place in 2015, even at their peak.
:40:56. > :40:58.With Labour struggling in the polls, the other parties are all
:40:59. > :41:02.Several seats are seemingly up for grabs.
:41:03. > :41:04.There are good seven or eight seats that are quite
:41:05. > :41:07.For Labour, they have to worry about Delyn,
:41:08. > :41:11.We've also got Anglesey, we've got only a 200
:41:12. > :41:17.Last time, Plaid Cymru very nearly took it.
:41:18. > :41:18.They do have the assembly seat as well.
:41:19. > :41:20.I think that will be a particularly interesting one
:41:21. > :41:25.But it is still very much all to play for.
:41:26. > :41:27.Theresa May's decision to call a snap election means voters
:41:28. > :41:30.here and across Wales will be asked to go to the polls for
:41:31. > :41:33.the fifth time in two years on the 8th of June.
:41:34. > :41:39.I've been looking forward to it, I wanted Theresa May to have a good
:41:40. > :41:46.majority in the Houses of Parliament so she can push through with Brexit.
:41:47. > :41:49.And do you think that's what's going to happen now?
:41:50. > :41:57.For an ex-Labour supporter, it's hard for me to really say that.
:41:58. > :41:59.I'm glad, the country needs sorting at the moment.
:42:00. > :42:06.The poor are getting poorer, the rich are getting richer.
:42:07. > :42:13.I'm not sure at the moment, but it won't be Conservative.
:42:14. > :42:16.Labour, what do you make of Jeremy Corbyn?
:42:17. > :42:19.That seems to be a big issue at the moment?
:42:20. > :42:24.He's making a lot more sense than the Conservatives at the moment.
:42:25. > :42:27.All 40 sitting Welsh MPs are standing again.
:42:28. > :42:30.They all know that this campaign will be dominated by Brexit,
:42:31. > :42:33.but they'll have to be ready to discuss other issues, too.
:42:34. > :42:36.Considering this is the only election for five years,
:42:37. > :42:39.although people will be voting on Brexit, and they will be voting
:42:40. > :42:42.on how negotiations go - they might be voting on hard Brexit
:42:43. > :42:44.or soft Brexit - I think a lot of people in Wales,
:42:45. > :42:47.they will be voting on the usual issues that people worry
:42:48. > :42:52.They will be voting on the economy, they will be voting on if they think
:42:53. > :42:54.their wages are getting better or not.
:42:55. > :42:55.They will be voting on the Health Service,
:42:56. > :42:59.Even though those are devolved issues, of course?
:43:00. > :43:01.Even though they are devolved issues, the UK parties
:43:02. > :43:03.are going to be campaigning on these pledges.
:43:04. > :43:05.On this street, and across the country, there are decisions
:43:06. > :43:08.to be made, votes to be won, to determine who occupies Number 10
:43:09. > :43:25.Good to see 10 Downing Street, keeping up with their recycling.
:43:26. > :43:28.There are challenges for the parties, but what will they be
:43:29. > :43:35.offering? Let's find out for the next 35 minutes or so. Carwyn Jones,
:43:36. > :43:39.you are a senior Labour politician. What is the party position on
:43:40. > :43:43.Trident? In favour of renewing it, quite clearly. In the manifesto? I
:43:44. > :43:49.don't run the manifesto, but has been clear today it will be in the
:43:50. > :43:53.manifesto. We need to make sure that the world disarms multilaterally.
:43:54. > :43:57.Defence is hugely important. But it is not just about the nuclear
:43:58. > :44:01.deterrent, it is about making sure we have sufficient capacity in the
:44:02. > :44:06.defence forces to provide security. A nuclear deterrent only works if
:44:07. > :44:09.you have a Prime Minister that says they will use it, and he says it
:44:10. > :44:15.won't? That is true, if you are Prime Minister, you have to quite
:44:16. > :44:17.often look at the possible as you're taking difficult decisions. Nobody
:44:18. > :44:23.wants to take that decision, but if you have a deterrent, it is
:44:24. > :44:28.unfortunate that you have to say you cannot rule out using it. You said
:44:29. > :44:32.recently that the party has a mountain to climb in the general
:44:33. > :44:35.election. That seems to be an understatement? It is true, no point
:44:36. > :44:39.pretending otherwise. But the mountains are there to be climbed,
:44:40. > :44:42.to be conquered. It is important that people are able to hear what we
:44:43. > :44:46.are saying, that we want a fair deal for Wales. We have had seven years
:44:47. > :44:50.of austerity. We were told it would sort things out, balance the books,
:44:51. > :44:56.there is no end to it. We need some hope, a party with vision, and we
:44:57. > :45:00.need a change in Westminster. Your party, the Shadow Chancellor said
:45:01. > :45:02.?500 billion more borrowing to give the economy a bit of a boost. You
:45:03. > :45:12.would go with Yes. There has never been a better time
:45:13. > :45:17.to borrow. A Labour government came in after the war when things were
:45:18. > :45:20.much worse, and yet it created the NHS, it made sure the economy was
:45:21. > :45:24.rebuilt, it built houses. All of these things were done at a far more
:45:25. > :45:29.difficult time. If they could do it, there is no reason a Labour
:45:30. > :45:34.government cannot do it after June. Coming into 2010, all of the
:45:35. > :45:36.political problems you got into because of so-called excess
:45:37. > :45:41.borrowing, you're not concerned about that? It was a world problem.
:45:42. > :45:45.On the 9th of August 2007, the stock market started to crash and it was a
:45:46. > :45:47.problem for all governments, not just the UK. It was a Labour
:45:48. > :45:53.government that made sure that the banks did not collapse, things were
:45:54. > :45:56.not left to get worse and worse. If it wasn't for the action Gordon
:45:57. > :46:02.Brown took, things would have been far worse. Andrew RT Davies, going
:46:03. > :46:07.into the 2015 general election, David Cameron was clear there was a
:46:08. > :46:11.tax block, a promise of no increase in VAT, income tax or national
:46:12. > :46:15.insurance. Should Theresa May have a similar promise going into this
:46:16. > :46:21.election? We are the party of low taxation. A promise, rule it out? We
:46:22. > :46:26.get it, if people are incentivised to go out to work, and agree to give
:46:27. > :46:31.a fair amount over, they will work harder to get on in life. If the
:46:32. > :46:34.government loads the tax system against it, they will not put the
:46:35. > :46:37.timing, they will not make the opportunities, entrepreneurs will
:46:38. > :46:42.not invest and you will see a contraction. We are the low tax
:46:43. > :46:46.party and we stand on that record. We are also about making sure that
:46:47. > :46:49.public finances are in good health. You can only borrow if people have
:46:50. > :46:56.confidence that you can repay the borrowing, when you look at Labour's
:46:57. > :46:59.commitment to ?500 billion, which the Prime Minister just endorsed,
:47:00. > :47:05.you can suddenly see the financial markets running a mile from the UK.
:47:06. > :47:10.So, cast iron, you think there should be a promise ruling out any
:47:11. > :47:12.sort of tax increases? We will see what the commitments are in the
:47:13. > :47:18.manifesto. I am saying that the Conservatives are the party of low
:47:19. > :47:20.taxation. So rule it out? What we would be doing is making sure we
:47:21. > :47:23.build on the strong credentials of the first seven years we have been
:47:24. > :47:28.in government, where 4 million people do not pay tax because they
:47:29. > :47:37.have been taken out of that. 31 million-plus people are in
:47:38. > :47:39.employment make sure we safeguard the interests of the vulnerable in
:47:40. > :47:42.society by continuing to grow the economy. That is what this election
:47:43. > :47:44.is about. It is about giving Theresa May the mandate to continue to build
:47:45. > :47:50.the economy, build Britain and negotiate Brexit. You are not ruling
:47:51. > :47:54.out raising taxes, Theresa May will not rule it out, either. That will
:47:55. > :47:58.lead to confusion? It will not lead to confusion, we are the party of
:47:59. > :48:02.low taxation. The manifesto will be coming forward on May the tenth, and
:48:03. > :48:05.people will be able to read it. The election was only called last
:48:06. > :48:11.Tuesday. As the part of low taxation, we want to make sure that
:48:12. > :48:14.the taxation system is fair and it allows entrepreneurs to invest,
:48:15. > :48:17.workers keep a fair share of income and we continue on the strong
:48:18. > :48:21.economic part we have built up. I guess the truth of the election is
:48:22. > :48:24.that it will be a battle along normal party political lines between
:48:25. > :48:29.the Conservatives and Labour. Is it difficult for you to get your voice
:48:30. > :48:32.heard? I would be concerned if you are right on that point, because
:48:33. > :48:37.Wales faces grave threats at the moment. There is a real job of work
:48:38. > :48:42.to do to defend Wales. We are under threat from an extreme Tory Brexit,
:48:43. > :48:47.which risks pulling us out of the single market. That risks many jobs
:48:48. > :48:52.in Wales. As well as the future of public services, and continued cuts,
:48:53. > :48:57.people face a downturn in their economic outlook. On top of that, we
:48:58. > :49:05.have the potential of a power grab from Westminster, where the powers
:49:06. > :49:10.that will be given by Brussels will not come back to Cardiff. The Tories
:49:11. > :49:16.will grab them for themselves in Westminster. So, Wales needs a team
:49:17. > :49:20.of MPs with a strong voice, defending Wales. We have an
:49:21. > :49:24.opportunity to provide that in this election. Will you be part of that
:49:25. > :49:28.team? I have a big decision to make over the next couple of days. I
:49:29. > :49:34.think, as I have said, the very nature of our country is in the
:49:35. > :49:37.balance now. So it is a no-brainer? If Scotland becomes independent, we
:49:38. > :49:42.risk becoming part of some England and Wales entity, and our voice
:49:43. > :49:46.within that structure risks being very, very small indeed. We do need
:49:47. > :49:51.a very strong team of MPs in Westminster. That is why I am
:49:52. > :49:55.actively considering it. We also need a strong team in the national
:49:56. > :49:58.assembly, and the election in 2021 is an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to
:49:59. > :50:03.form a government. That is something to bear in mind as well. Your
:50:04. > :50:06.colleagues in the assembly, are they capable of running their own
:50:07. > :50:11.affairs, having a leadership battle, having a First Minister, it isn't
:50:12. > :50:17.your time and effort best pursued in Westminster? These are the issues I
:50:18. > :50:21.am actively weighing up. You have had a few days? The Labour MP for
:50:22. > :50:26.the Rhondda is in a very vulnerable situation. He is constantly
:50:27. > :50:30.attacking his leader. The party is riven with divisions and people can
:50:31. > :50:32.see that. He has an appalling expenses record. I think we can win
:50:33. > :50:38.there with a number of different candidates. I think we are in for a
:50:39. > :50:41.very interesting election, in a number of seats throughout Wales,
:50:42. > :50:46.not least in the valleys, where people are still very desperate for
:50:47. > :50:48.change. Neal Hamilton, we have been talking about whether Leanne Wood
:50:49. > :50:53.would stand, your leader was refusing to refer to back row
:50:54. > :50:58.confirm if he was standing, surely the leader of Ukip us to stand in a
:50:59. > :51:03.general election? He may well do. It is not for me to advise him. I
:51:04. > :51:06.intend to be a candidate myself, to give a lead, because elections for
:51:07. > :51:12.Ukip our work in progress, always. One leads to another. We are still
:51:13. > :51:15.building our support base. This is going to be an important
:51:16. > :51:20.opportunity. Is the problem for Ukip, what can you offer a voter
:51:21. > :51:23.that they can't get from the Tories right now? This election is not
:51:24. > :51:28.about electing a government, that is done and dusted, we know what it is
:51:29. > :51:31.going to be. This is about electing an effective opposition. The best
:51:32. > :51:34.opportunity to leave Bracco opposition to the Conservatives is
:51:35. > :51:39.one that forces them to get the best Brexit deal possible for Britain,
:51:40. > :51:43.deliver on promises on immigration and many other things. We have other
:51:44. > :51:47.policies, like drastically reducing the foreign aid budget and putting
:51:48. > :51:51.it into the Health Service, scrapping green taxes on energy,
:51:52. > :51:56.which would reduce the average household electricity bill by ?300 a
:51:57. > :52:03.year. But those are fiddling around the edges. On the main issues of the
:52:04. > :52:07.day, there is a fag paper between you and the Tories? I don't know
:52:08. > :52:13.what you mean by the main issues of the day, Theresa May was a Remain in
:52:14. > :52:16.pain. A lot of Conservative MPs were Remain campaigners. Ukip is,
:52:17. > :52:25.unambiguously, the only party that supported Brexit. We are the guard
:52:26. > :52:31.dogs of that process. Mark Williams, last, but not least, I guess the big
:52:32. > :52:33.challenge for you once again will be to be a party that stands for
:52:34. > :52:38.something other than so-called standing up for those that voted to
:52:39. > :52:41.remain? We're going to stand for the whole of the country, the whole of
:52:42. > :52:46.Wales. There are huge issues at stake on the European issue. You are
:52:47. > :52:50.right, the tone of the discussion we have had so far, there are other
:52:51. > :52:57.issues which the Tory party must be challenged on. We did not mention
:52:58. > :53:00.the triple lock on pensions. We talk about vulnerable people, there is a
:53:01. > :53:04.group of people there that are very vulnerable, very concerned over what
:53:05. > :53:11.is being sad. Of course, the Prime Minister was very clear what this
:53:12. > :53:14.election was about. It is about Brexit, it is essential she doesn't
:53:15. > :53:18.get her way when she talks about the country being united, which it
:53:19. > :53:22.isn't, the need to have a compliant House of Commons that will give her
:53:23. > :53:24.a blank cheque to do what she chooses, with dire implications,
:53:25. > :53:27.particularly on the issue of the single market, particularly on the
:53:28. > :53:35.issues of what is there to replace subsidies for farmers, a structural
:53:36. > :53:38.fund regime, and concern that the powers currently exercised by the
:53:39. > :53:42.European Union will not find their way in Whitehall, when I have to
:53:43. > :53:45.vote for them, when they should be decided in the National Assembly.
:53:46. > :54:04.These are critical times and critical issues that need to be
:54:05. > :54:10.decided. Andrew Davies I have been waiting for a long time. It is
:54:11. > :54:14.important that people have clear choices. Not be threatened like they
:54:15. > :54:19.were at the last general election. Let's look at the opinion polls and
:54:20. > :54:24.be realistic. Theresa May called this election because she wants to
:54:25. > :54:30.kick Labour Party down even further. We're not going to have a coalition
:54:31. > :54:40.government but it is important the stores of all parties are clearer
:54:41. > :54:43.what is at stake. Andrew, one of the points raised, the only reason
:54:44. > :54:47.Theresa May has held this election is because she thinks she can
:54:48. > :54:50.thought the opposition. She was saying outside Downing Street she is
:54:51. > :54:55.doing it for the good of the country and needs to have a clear set of
:54:56. > :55:00.proposals. Where has there been any difficulty in her Brexit Road? She
:55:01. > :55:04.was clear on Tuesday why she is going to the country. The arithmetic
:55:05. > :55:11.of the House of Commons is challenging. The country is going to
:55:12. > :55:15.get it say on June eight. What is interesting from Mark Williams when
:55:16. > :55:21.he talks about no coalitions with Labour or the Conservatives, many in
:55:22. > :55:25.2010 remember when they said no to tuition fees and within a couple of
:55:26. > :55:33.months, they brought their men. Now she clearly outlined that she was
:55:34. > :55:40.doing it with a heavy heart. You believe that? She was very
:55:41. > :55:46.articulate. People at my her courage to go to the country. We take
:55:47. > :55:52.nothing for granted and as was Conservatives, will have to fight
:55:53. > :55:55.every seat, every square root of battle ground. As we go forward,
:55:56. > :56:02.what people are voting for is for a strong confident leadership of
:56:03. > :56:12.Jeremy -- of Theresa May rather than the confusion of Germany cordon --
:56:13. > :56:19.Jeremy Corbyn. They are divided as any party. Liam Fox wanted to put
:56:20. > :56:24.the clock back. To reason may is a Remainer and somebody who is a
:56:25. > :56:37.Remainer, I would want to negotiate a sensible Brexit. I don't see any
:56:38. > :56:43.sign of leadership. If strong leadership means down the ship --
:56:44. > :56:52.Downing Street leadership, is that the strong leadership he approves
:56:53. > :56:55.of? You have said the Labour Party has two leadership battles and group
:56:56. > :57:00.meetings which have had to break up in chaos and that is what is on the
:57:01. > :57:05.table for the people in this country on June eight. Chaos and confusion
:57:06. > :57:10.and labour or competent leadership of Theresa May. You have said
:57:11. > :57:13.they're fighting with the Parliamentary groups, that fighting
:57:14. > :57:18.leads to stop. This morning, anything less than victory is a
:57:19. > :57:25.failure and there will be a reckoning. That is not a united
:57:26. > :57:29.party. That is true of any party at any time. I will not pretend things
:57:30. > :57:36.are good in Westminster. We are very united in Wales. Let's not pretend
:57:37. > :57:40.the Conservative Party is wonderfully united. There are some
:57:41. > :57:43.who want to go back to the days before devolution. They are the
:57:44. > :57:47.people that want to see the powers come from Brussels to London and
:57:48. > :57:53.never come to Wales. That is appalling as part -- as far as the
:57:54. > :57:56.people of Wales are concerned. It is important that the message goes from
:57:57. > :58:01.Wales to the UK Government in Westminster and Wales is not there
:58:02. > :58:07.to see powers taken away. I put the questions to Carwyn Jones about
:58:08. > :58:12.taxation and we have seen Andrew saying there should be no promises
:58:13. > :58:18.on low tax. Carwyn Jones, 5 million of borrowing. Where does Plaid Cymru
:58:19. > :58:23.come in that? We have said we are concerned about the level of cuts to
:58:24. > :58:31.Welsh public services. Health service waiting lists are creaking.
:58:32. > :58:37.There are investments that should go into schools. More tax? In these to
:58:38. > :58:42.be fair. The issues around people being able to offshore tax in other
:58:43. > :58:49.countries is a massive one. That hasn't been resolved yet and I think
:58:50. > :58:54.we have had since 2008, cut after cut and so many communities have
:58:55. > :58:58.lost so many precious assets and we can't allow it to continue. That is
:58:59. > :59:02.why it is important that we don't give the Tories and increased
:59:03. > :59:06.mandate from Wales in this election. We had to see a reduction in the
:59:07. > :59:11.number of Welsh MPs or otherwise people will be giving the Tories a
:59:12. > :59:15.mandate to carry on with more privatisation, to further cut and
:59:16. > :59:24.take powers away from the National Assembly. Mail, where do you come in
:59:25. > :59:29.on this? We have not been in an age of austerity. George Osborne
:59:30. > :59:40.increased the national debt. The idea that the Tories are somehow the
:59:41. > :59:46.custodians of prudence is nonsense. There have been cuts. They have been
:59:47. > :59:54.reductions in spending increases and their art questions are priorities.
:59:55. > :59:59.Why close libraries and parks and leisure centres and day centres?
:00:00. > :00:05.Because of foreign aid. Tory austerity. The government is running
:00:06. > :00:13.a deficit of 50 billion a year. The possibility that Labour could borrow
:00:14. > :00:17.500 million is absurd. I want to bring in Mark Williams because we're
:00:18. > :00:23.having fun in the studio. Mark, I'm sure you would have something to say
:00:24. > :00:28.on this. The tax issue, you will have to look at the detail but one
:00:29. > :00:31.particular concerning issue that will concern everybody is the health
:00:32. > :00:40.budget and the cost of social care. Whether we have to happen English
:00:41. > :00:49.context and funds come to Wales to address social care may well be a
:00:50. > :00:53.reality. I have to say one thing and that is the Lib Dem policy which was
:00:54. > :00:56.raising the tax threshold for those paying income tax with a significant
:00:57. > :01:04.policy and I hope that will continue for the hardest working and knowing
:01:05. > :01:08.-- low-income families. One of the other things mentioned was the
:01:09. > :01:16.triple lock on pensions. They will go up by 2.5% every year. Should
:01:17. > :01:25.that stay? We will have our manifesto commitments. We have stood
:01:26. > :01:29.up for the triple lock and we will be working on the manifesto over the
:01:30. > :01:36.next week and people will be able to marry about pledges with this. It is
:01:37. > :01:39.an important factor. You have a Labour First Minister saying it is
:01:40. > :01:46.fine to borrow an extra ?500 billion. You have the leader of
:01:47. > :01:56.Plaid Cymru was saying it is good to raise taxes. You are not committing
:01:57. > :02:00.to anything. We stand clearly on our record of strong leadership and
:02:01. > :02:04.confidence when it comes to managing the economy. We are in turbulent
:02:05. > :02:08.times but we know there are the Brexit negotiations. We know where
:02:09. > :02:14.we need to continue to play down the public deficit. That is the three
:02:15. > :02:17.things the lecturer will be voting on and when you compare it to the
:02:18. > :02:23.chaos and confusion of Jeremy Corbyn propped up by the Liberals and Plaid
:02:24. > :02:31.Cymru, I know which way the country will go. We have many years of this.
:02:32. > :02:36.It never gets any better. It is austerity after austerity. If you
:02:37. > :02:41.get a job, you will get more money. What do we see, the bedroom tax, in
:02:42. > :02:49.what tax credits, the lowest paid sick more thermally taken in tax. It
:02:50. > :02:54.is not about improving society. It is a difficult one to live with. If
:02:55. > :03:01.you are advocating warren of ?500 billion, it resurrects the idea of a
:03:02. > :03:04.country living beyond its means. Some people have 30 year mortgages
:03:05. > :03:09.to invest in something they could have as an asset. That is what
:03:10. > :03:13.governments do. This is borrowing to invest and then get better return
:03:14. > :03:19.and more of your money back. It is what the government did. Your party
:03:20. > :03:30.borrows money. That is exactly why you borrow. You cannot go on
:03:31. > :03:33.believing money grows on trees because it doesn't. You can borrow
:03:34. > :03:38.for a certain length of time and eventually your credit limit is
:03:39. > :03:42.reached. That is the position Britain has reached. And George
:03:43. > :03:53.Osborne com he doubled the national debt in seven years. ?750 billion.
:03:54. > :03:59.215 more than this. I'm not getting a sense of what you are offering. We
:04:00. > :04:04.are offering a B designation of priorities within government instead
:04:05. > :04:09.of spending billions on foreign aid. It is a drop in the ocean. Not in
:04:10. > :04:18.terms of the health service billion -- budget. We were meant to have
:04:19. > :04:25.?350 million extra a week to stop that was promised by you and you and
:04:26. > :04:32.we have not seen it. Brexit dividend will be eight to ?10 billion on top
:04:33. > :04:37.of that. On top of foreign aid and many other savings, it adds up to a
:04:38. > :04:42.substantial amount of money. Look after our people first, is our
:04:43. > :04:47.slogan. We have to make sure we have a voice. We have had no mentions --
:04:48. > :04:50.we have had more mentions of Gibraltar than Wales and we had the
:04:51. > :04:57.Tories who are signed up to those Brexit promises and are able to
:04:58. > :05:00.influence the UK Government and the priorities of the Conservative
:05:01. > :05:07.Party. He was going to fight for Wales? What are your proposals for
:05:08. > :05:12.Brexit? We want to continue participation in the single market.
:05:13. > :05:16.That is vital for many industries within Wales. What kind of
:05:17. > :05:20.participation? We would like to have the same terms as we have now. We
:05:21. > :05:27.are exporting so much to that single market. No control on immigration.
:05:28. > :05:34.How can we control it? It would be impossible. If you want to control
:05:35. > :05:38.immigration, many want to control it from outside the EU. None of that is
:05:39. > :05:44.possible. Even immigration from within the EU, because there was
:05:45. > :05:52.going to be a soft border within Ireland, there's good to be a
:05:53. > :05:58.difficulty of the free flow of movement between the UK and what is
:05:59. > :06:02.left of the UK and the existing policy. I want to hear from all of
:06:03. > :06:07.you but what can you tell me that you will be offering for Wales? I
:06:08. > :06:12.want to follow up. I am still looking for the guarantee on the
:06:13. > :06:16.triple lock from Andrew. It was said in good faith and now the Tories are
:06:17. > :06:19.trying to get rid of it. That is a disgrace and it will resonate with a
:06:20. > :06:24.lot of hard pressed pensioners around the country. This is an
:06:25. > :06:27.issue, an election that will be dominated by the Brexit debate and
:06:28. > :06:31.sometimes we have to take this down to the human level. It is about
:06:32. > :06:36.those levels of farm subsidy and those schemes that have been
:06:37. > :06:39.supported in the valleys of West Wales and reminding people that it
:06:40. > :06:42.would be lost. That is why it is important to have strong voices in
:06:43. > :06:48.the House of Commons who will argue that case. The offer is we need to
:06:49. > :06:52.remain members of the single market or at the very least, have
:06:53. > :06:56.unfettered access to it. And not fall off the edge with those world
:06:57. > :07:01.trip -- World Trade Organisation tariffs that are looming close to us
:07:02. > :07:06.in the couple of years from now. That is a really important thing. We
:07:07. > :07:10.have so clearly as a party that if these negotiations proceed, just as
:07:11. > :07:13.this process started with the people and the referendum, it should end
:07:14. > :07:19.with a referendum on the terms of the deal that Theresa May set out.
:07:20. > :07:26.But -- will that be in a manifesto? It is not a second death -- second
:07:27. > :07:30.referendum. It is a racket -- ratification referendum. We don't
:07:31. > :07:34.know those terms. We don't go into this negotiation with uncertainty
:07:35. > :07:36.but we are in an uncertain age. We need clarity of the terms and a vote
:07:37. > :07:47.at the end. Should there be a referendum on
:07:48. > :07:50.ratification? Referendum, no, ratification, yes. What we don't
:07:51. > :07:58.want is a UK Parliament full of sheep with blue rosettes, who simply
:07:59. > :08:03.will not challenge what is proposed. What will you be proposing, as a
:08:04. > :08:06.Labour Party? I know that you proposed, as a Welsh government, you
:08:07. > :08:09.can come to work here for six months as an immigration policy after
:08:10. > :08:14.Brexit. This morning, Jeremy Corbyn was promising no such thing. Is he
:08:15. > :08:19.ignoring you? It is a work in progress, we have been clear on what
:08:20. > :08:24.we want. I am a Remain, but the result is what it was. So was
:08:25. > :08:27.Theresa May, we have moved on. Leanne and myself, two parties came
:08:28. > :08:33.together and put forward a sensible proposal for Brexit. It is not one
:08:34. > :08:37.that has been rejected by the UK Government. Wires Jeremy Corbyn not
:08:38. > :08:43.using that? This morning, you said no such thing. We know there is a
:08:44. > :08:47.template, and that he is aware of it. We have to respect the result of
:08:48. > :08:50.the referendum. That is gone. It is trying to interpret what people
:08:51. > :08:57.actually wanted, what outcome they wanted. You have outlined why we
:08:58. > :08:59.need a strong team of Plaid Cymru MPs. No matter how many Labour MPs
:09:00. > :09:06.you have in Westminster, they will not fight for Welsh interests, the
:09:07. > :09:10.same way that Plaid Cymru MPs will. It is only Plaid Cymru that will
:09:11. > :09:15.stand up for Wales. I guess this is your opportunity, as a pro Believe
:09:16. > :09:21.Conservative, you must be chomping at the bit to see those Vote Leave
:09:22. > :09:26.promises in the manifesto? And they will make it to the manifesto. We
:09:27. > :09:31.are mapping out what it will mean. Leanne goes on about a strong team
:09:32. > :09:34.of Plaid Cymru MPs. Plaid Cymru exists to smash up the United
:09:35. > :09:38.Kingdom. The biggest single market we are a member is the United
:09:39. > :09:46.Kingdom. Economic, it would be devastating if we polled the United
:09:47. > :09:51.Kingdom apart. That is what the election is about, strong, confident
:09:52. > :09:55.leadership. That worries me, what he just said. Against the chaos and
:09:56. > :10:00.confusion of Labour, Plaid Cymru and the Liberals clubbing together. That
:10:01. > :10:04.would be disastrous. I don't believe the Welsh Conservatives are standing
:10:05. > :10:08.for Wales, it is about centralising power in London. We think the best
:10:09. > :10:20.way forward is the partnership for four nations across the UK. ALL TALK
:10:21. > :10:28.AT ONCE... The viewer at home is not going to be able to pick up these
:10:29. > :10:32.points. What is happening... You are responding to the point about
:10:33. > :10:36.leadership, but it is a difficult one for you to raise, leadership,
:10:37. > :10:41.when you have problems with Jeremy Corbyn? He has to prove himself,
:10:42. > :10:46.there is no getting away from that. Will he be leader when the election
:10:47. > :10:50.is over? We have to see what the result is. As leaders, we know, and
:10:51. > :10:54.I am the same, with a referendum last year, if things go badly, you
:10:55. > :10:58.carry the responsibility. If things go well, you take the credit. That
:10:59. > :11:03.is how these things have always operated. What worries me is that if
:11:04. > :11:06.we get more Conservative MPs in Wales, the Conservatives will run
:11:07. > :11:12.all over Wales. We will see power taken away. The money we were
:11:13. > :11:16.promised, saying that Wales would not lose a penny, it will stick to
:11:17. > :11:21.summary's fingers in Whitehall. And I am sure you will be fighting to
:11:22. > :11:25.make sure it comes back to Wales? Yes, I would say that every penny of
:11:26. > :11:30.UK money that was spent in Brussels should come to Wales after Brexit. I
:11:31. > :11:34.am against any power grab from Westminster of the powers which are
:11:35. > :11:37.devolved in agriculture, environment, etc, being exercised
:11:38. > :11:42.from Brussels. They should automatically come to us in Cardiff.
:11:43. > :11:48.I very much hope that one of the major issues in this election will
:11:49. > :11:51.be child poverty. I think the Westminster Government, the Tories,
:11:52. > :11:56.in terms of welfare reforms, taking money away from the third child,
:11:57. > :12:03.unless the mother can prove she was raped to conceive the child, and
:12:04. > :12:05.also the Welsh government taking away Communities First funding from
:12:06. > :12:10.the most deprived communities with no guarantee of anything to replace
:12:11. > :12:14.it. On top of losing structural funds, it means child poverty levels
:12:15. > :12:17.are likely to increase. I very much hope we can have a debate about
:12:18. > :12:22.tackling child poverty in this election. We have too much in Wales
:12:23. > :12:25.already. We had a great debate this afternoon. Shouldn't Theresa May
:12:26. > :12:30.stand up and be counted with the other leaders in the TV debates?
:12:31. > :12:35.There is a huge art of access to the Prime Minister. She will be doing
:12:36. > :12:41.two and a sessions. I do want to take the First Minister to task on
:12:42. > :12:44.this issue. He says the Welsh Conservatives do not stand up for
:12:45. > :12:48.Wales. Over the last six years we had two Wales bills that delivered a
:12:49. > :12:56.huge amount of responsibilities to the Welsh Assembly. We have the
:12:57. > :13:00.referendum result, transferring lawmaking powers. The Conservatives
:13:01. > :13:04.will deliver strong, decisive leadership if we are elected. We
:13:05. > :13:09.take nothing for granted. And the rest of them it is chaos and
:13:10. > :13:14.confusion. Chaos and confusion with Labour, Plaid and the Liberals. I am
:13:15. > :13:19.seeing shaking off the head in Aberystwyth? We have the next Prime
:13:20. > :13:22.Minister's Question Time on Wednesday, and then she is off the
:13:23. > :13:26.hook for six weeks. She should have debates with all parties
:13:27. > :13:31.represented. It is a democratic necessity. You talk about
:13:32. > :13:36.leadership, you cannot be a leadership... It is time to finish
:13:37. > :13:39.the programme, we have run out of time this afternoon. We will be back
:13:40. > :13:43.with the latest development is at our regular time next week. Hope you
:13:44. > :13:44.can join me then. If you cannot contain yourself until then, you can
:13:45. > :13:50.follow all of the latest on Twitter. Diolch am wylio -
:13:51. > :13:56.thanks for watching. It's time to clock in...
:13:57. > :13:58.Whoooa!