:00:36. > :00:39.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:46.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:47. > :00:48.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:49. > :00:54.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:55. > :00:57.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:58. > :01:01.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:02. > :01:05.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:06. > :01:07.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:08. > :01:17.Have you read the manifestos yet? and intelligence agencies.
:01:18. > :01:21.We'll tell you all you need to know, while Labour is in the hot seat
:01:22. > :01:25.We'll tell you all you need to know, supporters. In London, we look at
:01:26. > :01:32.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:33. > :01:34.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:35. > :01:36.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:37. > :01:41.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:42. > :01:48.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:49. > :01:52.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:53. > :01:58.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:01:59. > :02:01.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:02. > :02:06.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:07. > :02:09.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:10. > :02:14.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:15. > :02:16.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:17. > :02:23.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:24. > :02:26.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:27. > :02:29.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:30. > :02:33.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:34. > :02:36.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:37. > :02:45.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:46. > :02:47.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:48. > :02:51.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:52. > :02:53.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:54. > :02:56.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:57. > :03:03.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:04. > :03:10.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:11. > :03:12.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:13. > :03:15.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:16. > :03:19.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:20. > :03:21.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:22. > :03:23.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:24. > :03:26.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:27. > :03:28.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:29. > :03:36.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:37. > :03:45.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:46. > :03:49.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:50. > :03:52.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:53. > :03:57.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:58. > :04:03.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:04. > :04:10.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:11. > :04:14.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:15. > :04:18.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:19. > :04:23.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:24. > :04:27.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:28. > :04:38.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:39. > :04:41.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:42. > :04:47.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:48. > :04:52.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:53. > :04:55.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:56. > :04:59.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:00. > :05:03.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:04. > :05:09.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:10. > :05:13.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:14. > :05:20.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:21. > :05:24.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:25. > :05:30.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:31. > :05:34.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:35. > :05:39.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:40. > :05:43.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:44. > :05:49.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:50. > :05:51.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:52. > :05:56.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:57. > :06:01.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:02. > :06:05.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:06. > :06:08.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:09. > :06:14.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:15. > :06:18.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:19. > :06:22.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:23. > :06:27.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:28. > :06:32.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:33. > :06:35.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:36. > :06:40.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:41. > :06:48.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:49. > :06:52.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:53. > :06:59.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:00. > :07:03.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:04. > :07:07.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:08. > :07:11.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:12. > :07:19.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:20. > :07:23.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:24. > :07:29.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:30. > :07:33.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:34. > :07:38.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:39. > :07:44.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:45. > :07:50.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:51. > :07:54.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:55. > :07:58.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:07:59. > :08:04.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:05. > :08:09.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:10. > :08:12.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:13. > :08:17.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:18. > :08:22.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:23. > :08:25.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:26. > :08:29.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:30. > :08:32.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:33. > :08:37.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:38. > :08:40.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:41. > :08:44.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:45. > :08:51.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:52. > :08:55.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:56. > :08:59.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:00. > :09:03.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:04. > :09:08.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:09. > :09:13.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:14. > :09:16.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:17. > :09:21.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:22. > :09:26.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:27. > :09:30.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:31. > :09:32.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:33. > :09:38.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:39. > :09:41.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:42. > :09:48.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:49. > :09:54.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:55. > :10:00.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:01. > :10:05.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:06. > :10:11.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:12. > :10:17.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:18. > :10:20.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:21. > :10:25.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:26. > :10:29.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:30. > :10:33.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:34. > :10:39.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:40. > :10:42.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:43. > :10:46.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:47. > :10:51.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:52. > :10:54.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:55. > :10:57.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:58. > :10:59.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:00. > :11:00.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:01. > :11:03.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:04. > :11:05.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:06. > :11:08.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:09. > :11:22.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:23. > :11:27.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:28. > :11:30.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:31. > :11:37.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:38. > :11:41.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:42. > :11:44.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:45. > :11:45.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:46. > :11:48.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:49. > :11:57.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:58. > :12:00.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:01. > :12:04.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:05. > :12:09.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:10. > :12:13.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:14. > :12:19.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:20. > :12:24.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:25. > :12:28.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:29. > :12:37.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:38. > :12:40.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:41. > :12:45.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:46. > :12:55.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:56. > :12:59.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:00. > :13:03.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:04. > :13:06.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:07. > :13:13.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:14. > :13:17.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:18. > :13:21.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:22. > :13:28.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:29. > :13:33.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:34. > :13:38.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:39. > :13:44.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:45. > :13:46.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:47. > :13:54.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:55. > :13:58.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:13:59. > :14:02.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:03. > :14:07.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:08. > :14:12.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:13. > :14:18.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:19. > :14:23.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:24. > :14:28.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:29. > :14:33.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:34. > :14:37.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:38. > :14:42.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:43. > :14:47.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:48. > :14:50.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:51. > :14:56.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:57. > :15:02.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:03. > :15:05.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:06. > :15:09.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:10. > :15:14.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:15. > :15:19.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:20. > :15:24.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:25. > :15:31.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:32. > :15:37.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:38. > :15:42.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:43. > :15:46.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:47. > :15:50.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:51. > :15:54.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:55. > :15:59.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:00. > :16:03.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:04. > :16:06.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:07. > :16:11.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:12. > :16:14.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:15. > :16:19.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:20. > :16:20.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:21. > :16:29.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:30. > :16:33.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:34. > :16:38.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:39. > :16:46.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:47. > :16:51.2000, it gave the Secretary of State Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:52. > :16:56.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:57. > :16:59.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:00. > :17:04.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:05. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:13.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:14. > :17:19.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:20. > :17:24.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:25. > :17:27.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:28. > :17:35.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:36. > :17:38.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:39. > :17:43.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:44. > :17:47.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:48. > :17:51.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:52. > :17:56.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:57. > :18:01.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:02. > :18:14.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:15. > :18:16.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:17. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:21.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:22. > :18:30.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:31. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:44.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:45. > :18:49.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:50. > :18:53.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:54. > :18:56.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really
:18:57. > :19:01.and murder lies with the murder, and me is that the Prime Minister
:19:02. > :19:04.and murder lies with the murder, and the other day that in Jeremy
:19:05. > :19:18.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:19. > :19:22.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:23. > :19:26.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:27. > :19:30.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:31. > :19:33.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:34. > :19:37.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:38. > :19:39.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:40. > :19:44.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:45. > :19:46.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:47. > :19:49.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:50. > :19:51.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:52. > :19:53.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:54. > :19:55.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:56. > :20:09.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:10. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:18.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:19. > :20:22.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:23. > :20:27.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:28. > :20:33.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:34. > :20:36.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:37. > :20:41.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:42. > :20:45.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:46. > :20:51.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:52. > :20:56.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:57. > :21:00.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:01. > :21:06.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:07. > :21:10.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:11. > :21:15.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:16. > :21:20.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:21. > :21:27.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:28. > :21:30.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:31. > :21:35.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:36. > :21:41.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:42. > :21:48.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:49. > :21:51.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:52. > :21:55.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:56. > :22:00.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:01. > :22:05.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:06. > :22:11.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:12. > :22:14.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:15. > :22:18.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:19. > :22:22.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:23. > :22:25.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:26. > :22:31.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:32. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:41.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:42. > :22:46.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:47. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:55.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:56. > :23:02.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:03. > :23:06.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:07. > :23:09.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:10. > :23:15.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:16. > :23:19.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:20. > :23:27.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:28. > :23:36.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:37. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:46.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:47. > :23:50.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:51. > :23:57.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:58. > :24:01.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:02. > :24:06.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:07. > :24:10.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:11. > :24:14.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:15. > :24:19.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:20. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:30.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:31. > :24:34.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:35. > :24:38.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:39. > :24:43.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:44. > :24:48.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:49. > :24:53.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:54. > :25:03.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:04. > :25:09.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:10. > :25:12.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:13. > :25:15.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:16. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:27.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:28. > :25:32.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:33. > :25:39.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:40. > :25:42.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:43. > :25:52.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:53. > :25:59.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:00. > :26:04.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:05. > :26:09.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:10. > :26:14.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:15. > :26:21.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:22. > :26:29.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:30. > :26:34.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:35. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:47.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:48. > :26:50.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:51. > :26:56.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:57. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:16.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:17. > :27:19.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:20. > :27:25.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:26. > :27:30.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:31. > :27:33.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:34. > :27:41.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:42. > :27:48.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:49. > :27:53.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:54. > :27:57.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:58. > :28:01.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:02. > :28:06.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:07. > :28:10.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:11. > :28:15.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:16. > :28:21.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:22. > :28:33.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:34. > :28:35.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:36. > :28:43.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:44. > :28:45.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:46. > :28:47.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:48. > :28:50.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:51. > :28:51.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:52. > :28:53.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:54. > :28:56.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:57. > :28:57.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:58. > :29:00.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:01. > :29:03.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:04. > :29:09.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:10. > :29:27.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:28. > :29:30.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:31. > :29:32.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:33. > :29:39.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:40. > :29:43.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:44. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:57.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:58. > :30:04.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:05. > :30:08.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:09. > :30:20.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:21. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:28.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:29. > :30:33.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:34. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:58.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:30:59. > :31:02.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:03. > :31:06.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:07. > :31:11.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:12. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:17.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:18. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:29.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:30. > :31:33.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:34. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:43.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:44. > :31:48.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:49. > :31:54.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:55. > :31:57.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:58. > :32:05.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:06. > :32:14.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:15. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:30.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:31. > :32:36.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:37. > :32:40.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:41. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:50.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:51. > :32:53.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:54. > :32:58.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:32:59. > :33:04.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:05. > :33:09.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:10. > :33:16.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:17. > :33:25.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:26. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:37.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:38. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:47.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:48. > :33:49.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:50. > :33:55.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:56. > :34:01.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:02. > :34:06.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:07. > :34:10.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:11. > :34:14.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:15. > :34:17.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:18. > :34:21.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:22. > :34:24.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:25. > :34:27.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:28. > :34:32.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:33. > :34:37.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:38. > :34:43.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:44. > :34:46.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:47. > :34:50.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:51. > :34:56.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:57. > :35:00.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:01. > :35:03.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:04. > :35:08.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:09. > :35:12.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:13. > :35:15.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:16. > :35:21.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:22. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:31.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:32. > :35:37.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:38. > :35:40.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:41. > :35:45.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:46. > :35:49.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:50. > :35:55.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:56. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:17.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:18. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:26.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:27. > :36:33.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:34. > :36:35.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:36. > :36:43.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:44. > :36:47.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:48. > :36:53.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:54. > :36:59.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:00. > :37:04.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:05. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:16.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:17. > :37:19.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:20. > :37:26.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:27. > :37:32.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:33. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:42.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:43. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:56.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:57. > :38:00.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:01. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:12.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:13. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:21.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:22. > :38:26.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:27. > :38:29.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:30. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:50.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:51. > :38:51.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:52. > :38:53.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:54. > :38:56.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:57. > :39:07.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:08. > :39:11.In a few minutes our five minute guide to the manifestos
:39:12. > :39:18.But first the latest of our interviews with the main
:39:19. > :39:22.We've already heard from Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the LibDems.
:39:23. > :39:24.The Conservatives will be here next week.
:39:25. > :39:31.Its campaign co-ordinator Wayne David is with me now.
:39:32. > :39:43.Good morning. I guess it's almost a positive morning for Labour,
:39:44. > :39:47.considering, we've seen in some opinion polls a narrowing of the
:39:48. > :39:53.lead for the Conservatives. Is that a good news day or does more need to
:39:54. > :39:57.be done? Inevitably, there is a shadow of
:39:58. > :39:58.this election campaign after what happened in Manchester and our
:39:59. > :40:01.sympathy go out happened in Manchester and our
:40:02. > :40:05.sympathy go out to the victim and their families there.
:40:06. > :40:09.In terms of opinion polls shifts, yes positive movement for Labour.
:40:10. > :40:14.This election shows that there is everything to fight for still.
:40:15. > :40:18.Do you think it being a foregone conclusion for the Conservatives at
:40:19. > :40:22.the beginning of the campaign has helped to Labour and hindered the
:40:23. > :40:26.Tories? There's been a degree of arrogance
:40:27. > :40:32.as far as the Conservatives are concerned. They took people's votes
:40:33. > :40:35.for granted. They've had a very lacklustre campaign and Theresa May
:40:36. > :40:40.has not come across particularly well in contrast to the Labour
:40:41. > :40:43.campaign. Particularly in Wales, why has the
:40:44. > :40:48.being almost no mention of the party's leader in Wales?
:40:49. > :40:53.Jeremy Corbyn has been to Wales and has been well received in Cardiff.
:40:54. > :40:58.I am sure he will come to Wales again. It is important to recognise
:40:59. > :41:00.that the Labour Party in Wales is fighting this campaign as Welsh
:41:01. > :41:03.Labour. Carwyn Jones is the leader of Welsh
:41:04. > :41:10.Labour. But when MPs, when there are
:41:11. > :41:14.presumably some Labour MPs return to Westminster, they don't follow
:41:15. > :41:19.Carwyn Jones's lead, they follow the Labour whip in Westminster.
:41:20. > :41:26.But things are changing. So we'll Carwyn Jones sent the Labour MP's
:41:27. > :41:31.whip in Westminster? There is a new relationship between
:41:32. > :41:35.London and Welsh Labour. We'll see a new relationship which is
:41:36. > :41:39.manifesting itself in our manifesto. There are clear commitments which
:41:40. > :41:43.apply specifically to Wales. Our allegiances to Colin Jones,
:41:44. > :41:47.first and foremost. So whatever Carwyn Jones says in
:41:48. > :41:52.future goals, even if it contradicts what Jeremy Corbyn says?
:41:53. > :41:59.We have a strong partnership. Our responsibilities to make sure there
:42:00. > :42:04.are contradictions. So if there is conflict, who has the final say,
:42:05. > :42:08.surely it is Jeremy Corbyn? It depends what the issues are. As
:42:09. > :42:10.far as the election is concerned we are fighting an Welsh and devolved
:42:11. > :42:15.issues. We want devolution taken forward.
:42:16. > :42:18.When it comes to issues at the centre the party in London has a
:42:19. > :42:25.crucial relationship with Labour MPs, I think that's very clear. Not
:42:26. > :42:29.everyone in the media has grasped the complexity of the situation.
:42:30. > :42:33.It is a new ball game completely. I am pleased to say it is working well
:42:34. > :42:36.for Labour. When it comes to, for example,
:42:37. > :42:40.immigration what is the Labour Party position?
:42:41. > :42:45.We recognise that we are leaving the European Union, there is an end to
:42:46. > :42:50.free movement, that is fact. That is recognised by everyone.
:42:51. > :42:55.But what do you want to replace it? We want a system whereby immigration
:42:56. > :43:01.is not capped. We want it judged on what contribution migrants can make
:43:02. > :43:04.to the economy. We think it's important that we continue with
:43:05. > :43:10.immigration as far as the health service is concerned.
:43:11. > :43:14.But I'm talking about a plan for the future. Carwyn Jones, and he said
:43:15. > :43:17.this morning, there should be a system where people come here for
:43:18. > :43:23.three months to look for a job, then they had to leave.
:43:24. > :43:27.Is that party policy or not? It does not contradict anything.
:43:28. > :43:32.That is car win's... But if he is the leader in Wales, that is your
:43:33. > :43:37.policy. The immigration policy is determined
:43:38. > :43:42.at a UK level. So that's Jeremy Corbyn tromping Carwyn Jones Commies
:43:43. > :43:47.and it? It's not a case of trumping. It is not a contradiction at UK
:43:48. > :43:50.level. It takes it slightly further and
:43:51. > :43:54.refined it. It's not a contradiction. But it's
:43:55. > :43:58.meaningless, because Carwyn Jones can say what he likes about
:43:59. > :44:03.immigration, no one has to listen. It is not meaningless. It is an
:44:04. > :44:07.outline of what we want to achieve. Carwyn Jones expressed a specific
:44:08. > :44:11.point of view, which I'm sure will carry an enormous amount of weight
:44:12. > :44:16.if Labour winds the election. Why are there no specifics on your
:44:17. > :44:21.manifesto? Ours is longer than any manifesto
:44:22. > :44:26.we've ever produced. You cannot imagine the fine detail of every
:44:27. > :44:30.single policy included in the manifesto. We want a clear direction
:44:31. > :44:35.of travel. The direction of travel as clear as far as immigration. An
:44:36. > :44:40.end to free movement, that is coming. We want to judge immigration
:44:41. > :44:45.on the basis of what contribution migrants can make to our economy.
:44:46. > :44:52.But we've seen on tax and spending, we've seen a bit of detail from the
:44:53. > :44:55.party there. Unfortunately, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, very
:44:56. > :44:59.well regarded economic forecasting body, says it would mean higher
:45:00. > :45:01.taxes more spending than we've ever seen during peace time in this
:45:02. > :45:07.country. Is that what you're going for? The
:45:08. > :45:13.Labour Party has spelt out its commitments very clearly. Wales will
:45:14. > :45:17.benefit enormously from that. What is important, I think, is
:45:18. > :45:22.recognising that those who are wealthy will be asked to pay a bit
:45:23. > :45:25.more. A great mass of people will not see an increase in their
:45:26. > :45:31.taxation. That's important to emphasise. That is not contradicted
:45:32. > :45:35.by any economist, anyway. No, no, but fact remains that the
:45:36. > :45:39.tax levels would be set at record levels in peace time since 1945 at
:45:40. > :45:45.the highest level. Are you comfortable without? I would
:45:46. > :45:49.put emphasis on the point I just made. We aren't talking about an
:45:50. > :45:54.increase in taxation for all people. We are talking about an increase in
:45:55. > :45:58.taxation for the top 5%. What we've seen over the last five years is a
:45:59. > :46:01.discrepancy in our society between the very rich and varied pool are
:46:02. > :46:06.getting ever greater. We want that narrowed. We want a
:46:07. > :46:10.fairer society where everybody has equal opportunity and everybody is
:46:11. > :46:13.able to contribute and fulfil their aspirations.
:46:14. > :46:23.But what the ISS says is that you are pretending everything can be
:46:24. > :46:25.paid for by somebody else. Their tax rates will not raise anything like
:46:26. > :46:30.the ?48.6 billion you are claiming. Are you being honest with voters?
:46:31. > :46:37.I believe we are. The predictions are based upon greater measures of
:46:38. > :46:41.tax avoidance, people seeking to take money abroad, and they won't be
:46:42. > :46:46.paying the contributions we expect them to pay. Part of our packages to
:46:47. > :46:51.make certain that there are measures in place to prevent tax avoidance,
:46:52. > :46:55.to prevent people taking money abroad. International controls which
:46:56. > :46:58.work for the partners in Europe and across the world to make sure there
:46:59. > :47:03.is that social control of capital which we need to see.
:47:04. > :47:16.How happy have you been with Jeremy Corbyn's performance since the
:47:17. > :47:18.campaign was launched? I think he's performed very well.
:47:19. > :47:21.The important thing is that he is being himself. That is in sharp
:47:22. > :47:23.contradiction to the Prime Minister who is being evasive and duplicitous
:47:24. > :47:26.at times. Even if people don't like Jeremy Corbyn, he's an honest,
:47:27. > :47:31.decent man. Have you changed your mind on him? A
:47:32. > :47:35.year ago you were saying you don't think he'd have relevant policies or
:47:36. > :47:41.could provide strong leadership, were you wrong AMs I think it's
:47:42. > :47:45.important to recognise that I, and many others, had reservations about
:47:46. > :47:49.Jeremy Corbyn. That hasn't changed, but we all
:47:50. > :47:53.recognise that when you compare Jeremy Corbyn to Theresa May, that
:47:54. > :47:57.tries people are faced with, there's no doubt in my mind that Jeremy
:47:58. > :48:00.Corbyn would be a far better Prime Minister.
:48:01. > :48:04.That's faint praise if the best you can say about your own party leader
:48:05. > :48:07.is that he's better than Theresa May, the leader of the
:48:08. > :48:11.Conservatives. Politics is about choice. And I
:48:12. > :48:16.think Jeremy has come across as a man of principle, a man of decency
:48:17. > :48:19.and a man of vision. I am more than happy to support him on that basis.
:48:20. > :48:23.Now we're all in favour, I hope, of creating a stronger economy,
:48:24. > :48:25.a more just society and a better world for our children.
:48:26. > :48:27.And surprise surprise, so are the parties
:48:28. > :48:31.But beyond the promises and pleasantries, what is there
:48:32. > :48:34.Our reporter Carl Roberts loves going to bed with a good book,
:48:35. > :48:56.Well, the political parties' Welsh manifestos have been launched.
:48:57. > :49:00.You're there you are, essential bedtime reading if you're
:49:01. > :49:05.But you might not want to read them all.
:49:06. > :49:08.So we've picked out the main pledges for you.
:49:09. > :49:15.Plaid Cymru was the first party to launch its manifesto,
:49:16. > :49:19.enticingly entitled Action Plan 2017.
:49:20. > :49:23.We've got the record, we've got the team.
:49:24. > :49:27.And with today's manifesto, we've got the vision.
:49:28. > :49:30.Today, we rally behind something which is much
:49:31. > :49:37.What we have today is an action plan.
:49:38. > :49:49.The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham,
:49:50. > :49:56.The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham,
:49:57. > :49:58.to launch the Welsh Conservative manifesto, while the Secretary
:49:59. > :50:00.of State for Wales, the keen marathon runner,
:50:01. > :50:08.gave the BBC's Laura Kunesberg, the runaround.
:50:09. > :50:10.The Welsh Conservative manifesto I launched today
:50:11. > :50:14.is a plan to make the most of the opportunities to gather.
:50:15. > :50:20.It is a plan to make Wales, and our union, stronger.
:50:21. > :50:23.But this manifesto sets out a vision of Britain around
:50:24. > :50:42.The Welsh Conservative manifesto, Forward Together, pledges:
:50:43. > :50:50.One man and his dog turned up for the Labour manifesto launched
:50:51. > :50:54.it's called Standing Up For Wales, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones,
:50:55. > :50:59.Our Welsh manifesto is an ambitious, comprehensive plan for
:51:00. > :51:02.what Welsh Labour can do together in the Assembly.
:51:03. > :51:10.Unlike the Tories, we stand ready to deliver on the big projects that
:51:11. > :51:27.Ukip Wales's manifesto is called Wales Into The World.
:51:28. > :51:30.So it's apt that it was launched in the Norwegian Church in Cardiff Bay.
:51:31. > :51:34.The launch of the Ukip manifesto nationally
:51:35. > :51:39.is going on simultaneously with this launch here in Cardiff.
:51:40. > :51:46.And our manifesto for Wales fits into a wider matrix
:51:47. > :52:04.Changing Wales's Future is the Welsh Liberal Democrat's manifesto,
:52:05. > :52:08.launched in the pharmaceutical factory in Hay on Wye.
:52:09. > :52:28.fully aware of what they wanted when they voted on June 23.
:52:29. > :52:31.The negotiations, of course, are in doubt.
:52:32. > :52:33.We don't know what those terms are going to be.
:52:34. > :52:36.We don't know what the impact of coming out of the single
:52:37. > :52:39.The impact on our family farms, the manufacturing sector,
:52:40. > :52:45.The main pledges, from the political parties in Wales.
:52:46. > :52:48.They've made their beds, and after all that reading,
:52:49. > :52:57.I'm tired, and I need a little snooze.
:52:58. > :53:00.So, with less than a fortnight to go, where are we going
:53:01. > :53:03.Dylan Jones-Evans is Professor of Entrepreneurship
:53:04. > :53:06.at the University of South Wales and a former Conservative candidate.
:53:07. > :53:09.Bethan Darwin is a lawyer, author and founder of the Superwoman
:53:10. > :53:23.Thank you both very much for coming in for a quick chat. It's been a
:53:24. > :53:28.difficult week for so many reasons. I guess for the political parties,
:53:29. > :53:34.moving on from such terrible events and trying to resume the campaign
:53:35. > :53:40.has been difficult. How do you think they've coped with that?
:53:41. > :53:43.I think they've done the best they could in the circumstances. It's
:53:44. > :53:48.difficult to move quickly away from something so horrendous.
:53:49. > :53:53.And a van to focus on electioneering. I think they've done
:53:54. > :53:58.the best they could in the circumstances to look forward to
:53:59. > :54:00.June eight. Some people have said it's too long, others said it should
:54:01. > :54:06.have been longer. I think it about right. In a
:54:07. > :54:12.previous life, you would a candidate, is it's difficult? On the
:54:13. > :54:18.one hand you must be keen to get out there, but on the other you have two
:54:19. > :54:23.be sensitive to what is a difficult set of circumstances?
:54:24. > :54:29.It's been a short campaign already. What you will see over the next ten
:54:30. > :54:33.or 12 days is a concertina on what should have been on the campaign
:54:34. > :54:39.trail in the previous week into this week. That will change the dynamic
:54:40. > :54:42.of the election. Any political party will have a plan leading up to
:54:43. > :54:49.election day and they will ratchet up. Whatever focus they want to have
:54:50. > :54:54.on the opposition, that will be far more intense snow over the next few
:54:55. > :54:57.days. As it would have been if we didn't have the atrocity in
:54:58. > :55:03.Manchester. We've had calls from ITV Wales and
:55:04. > :55:06.Cardiff University over the past few weeks, first of all saying that the
:55:07. > :55:13.Conservatives were miles ahead in Wales and would win a majority of
:55:14. > :55:17.seats. And then we had another one on Monday which said, no, Labour and
:55:18. > :55:22.the lead again. Normal service resumes. How would the campaigns be
:55:23. > :55:26.looking at those polls? Most of the campaigners would
:55:27. > :55:31.continue as there are not respond to these polls. In the end, there's
:55:32. > :55:36.only one poll that counts and that's the one on the day it sounds. Most
:55:37. > :55:41.of the candidates will have a particular plan, and will continue
:55:42. > :55:50.knocking doors as they will. These are polls, and as we've seen in the
:55:51. > :55:53.last three elections, the polls have been wildly out. One can't say if
:55:54. > :55:58.the polls will save Labour or the Conservatives. I guarantee they will
:55:59. > :56:03.be another postmortem today after an well-regarded right or wrong.
:56:04. > :56:08.We were talking only about the campaign from Labour in Wales. Have
:56:09. > :56:13.you been surprised that they've concentrated so much an Carwyn
:56:14. > :56:15.Jones? Is there a danger that could be confusing considering that Carwyn
:56:16. > :56:20.Jones isn't standing in the selection?
:56:21. > :56:27.I think they're trying to distance themselves from Jeremy Corbyn. They
:56:28. > :56:32.are trying to show that they are in this 2-party contest, Jeremy Corbyn
:56:33. > :56:35.versus Theresa May. Welsh Labour want to distance themselves a little
:56:36. > :56:41.bit from Corbyn and push Welsh Labour versus national labour.
:56:42. > :56:47.Do you think people buying that? Do you think, or when David was saying
:56:48. > :56:52.that there is devolution and we have to change the relationship, do you
:56:53. > :56:57.think people go, yeah, fair enough, or do they think they just don't
:56:58. > :57:03.fancy having Corbyn plastered all over the place?
:57:04. > :57:07.I think they do buy it. Because we have the National Assembly and Plaid
:57:08. > :57:14.Cymru performing so well. Leanne Wood continues to perform well in
:57:15. > :57:21.every public outing she has, I think that people are looking at it from a
:57:22. > :57:25.Welsh perspective far more. They are looking at Welsh Labour and Plaid
:57:26. > :57:29.Cymru, that is the chance we are meeting in this election. If you are
:57:30. > :57:34.left wing and believe that you've got a bigger table, you should share
:57:35. > :57:39.it with others, you are looking at Labour or Plaid Cymru. People will
:57:40. > :57:43.have to make that choice based on a Welsh perspective. I think it does
:57:44. > :57:46.make a difference and people understand that difference. But
:57:47. > :57:50.Welsh Labour is part of national labour.
:57:51. > :57:57.But we know that in Wales, more so than Scotland and Northern Ireland
:57:58. > :58:02.people get their news from London. The Fleet Street newspapers. Has
:58:03. > :58:06.that been interesting, that even from the polls we've seen today,
:58:07. > :58:10.they are all showing that the polls suggest a narrowing of the lead for
:58:11. > :58:16.the Conservatives. But we are still talking even with
:58:17. > :58:21.the most pessimistic Paul, a 50 seat majority. Why was this election
:58:22. > :58:25.called? Everybody in the country is generally sick of elections over the
:58:26. > :58:29.last few years, and referenda, the whole point about this was giving
:58:30. > :58:32.the Prime Minister and the Conservative Party a stronger
:58:33. > :58:39.mandate to drive through Brexit. We haven't heard almost nothing on
:58:40. > :58:44.Brexit over the last two weeks. And, of course, when you talk about other
:58:45. > :58:48.policies, if we don't get that particular negotiation right, then
:58:49. > :58:52.we can't even start talking about social care, economic policy... We
:58:53. > :58:56.need to get those negotiations right and we forgotten that is what this
:58:57. > :59:00.was election was about. I think that will happen. Are you
:59:01. > :59:05.surprised there's been so little talk about Brexit? What is the very
:59:06. > :59:09.nature of discussions but they haven't happen yet does that mean
:59:10. > :59:12.it's inevitable that you can't give too many details?
:59:13. > :59:16.I think the point was the Prime Minister has been trying to say who
:59:17. > :59:24.is the best person. That's been her line. I think that message has been
:59:25. > :59:29.lost. You've seen in the papers today, allegations of infighting
:59:30. > :59:35.amongst close advisers, that's what's different. When the last
:59:36. > :59:39.campaign was run for David Cameron they had one message and drove it
:59:40. > :59:42.through. They surprised everyone by winning that significant majority
:59:43. > :59:46.considering the circumstances. That's got to change again if the
:59:47. > :59:51.Conservatives were to get that lead in the polls that they need. If
:59:52. > :59:55.Theresa May ends up with the same majority as before people will say
:59:56. > :00:00.what was the point of all this? Are we seeing a squeezing of smaller
:00:01. > :00:05.parties? You mentioned Plaid Cymru there, they aren't Ukip and the
:00:06. > :00:11.Liberal Democrats, are they being squeezed out?
:00:12. > :00:16.Yes. Completely. Not just squeezed out by campaigning, but by their
:00:17. > :00:21.election results, with the Lib Dems having just nine MPs and 1am.
:00:22. > :00:27.They've lost their place in the discussion. And Ukip, I think
:00:28. > :00:32.everybody feels like they've done it now. They've achieved Brexit, why
:00:33. > :00:35.are you still hear? Those roadside in this world for other parties to
:00:36. > :00:42.pick up. I guess the interesting thing in the
:00:43. > :00:47.Welsh vote is with those second... Those former Ukip routes could go? I
:00:48. > :00:50.know a lot of them are going to the Conservatives. But in the valleys
:00:51. > :00:56.where I am from they could go back to Labour. The ones that went to
:00:57. > :01:05.Ukip were traditional Labour voters. They could go to Labour again, or
:01:06. > :01:11.they could go to Plaid Cymru. The great unknown. It's a really
:01:12. > :01:14.interesting time. It is a new and unpredictable world but June it will
:01:15. > :01:17.reveal. So neither of you will give me a
:01:18. > :01:23.prediction? For Wales or for the UK? It's
:01:24. > :01:27.difficult. You've seen the surge. I think everybody said at the
:01:28. > :01:32.beginning that this campaign would be the turnout election. It's
:01:33. > :01:35.whether people are tired of elections, and some people in the
:01:36. > :01:42.Labour Party might think there is no point voting because we will lose.
:01:43. > :01:46.Others might be strengthened by the polls and say because filters, Ukip
:01:47. > :01:49.voters likely there is no point, we got what we want. What we back the
:01:50. > :01:51.part we want to back. Thank you for your lack of
:01:52. > :01:53.Thank you for your lack of productions!
:01:54. > :01:57.Join us next week as the election gallops into its final furlong.
:01:58. > :01:59.You can follow all the latest on twitter, we're @walespolitics
:02:00. > :02:01.but for now that's all from me time to go back to Jo.
:02:02. > :02:03.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:04. > :02:18.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:19. > :02:25.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:26. > :02:29.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:30. > :02:35.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:36. > :02:39.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:40. > :02:44.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:45. > :02:50.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:51. > :02:56.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:57. > :03:00.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:01. > :03:05.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:06. > :03:10.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:11. > :03:15.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:16. > :03:24.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:25. > :03:26.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:27. > :03:32.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:33. > :03:40.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:41. > :03:47.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:48. > :03:51.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:52. > :03:54.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:55. > :04:00.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:01. > :04:06.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:07. > :04:13.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:14. > :04:17.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:18. > :04:22.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:23. > :04:29.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:30. > :04:34.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:35. > :04:40.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:41. > :04:47.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:48. > :04:54.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:55. > :05:00.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:01. > :05:06.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:07. > :05:13.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:14. > :05:17.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:18. > :05:22.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:23. > :05:25.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:26. > :05:32.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:33. > :05:39.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:40. > :05:43.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:44. > :05:48.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:49. > :05:53.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:54. > :05:57.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:05:58. > :06:01.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:02. > :06:06.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:07. > :06:14.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:15. > :06:19.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:20. > :06:24.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:25. > :06:29.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:30. > :06:33.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:34. > :06:40.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:41. > :06:45.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:46. > :06:49.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:50. > :06:53.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:54. > :06:57.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:06:58. > :07:02.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:03. > :07:06.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:07. > :07:09.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:10. > :07:16.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:17. > :07:21.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:22. > :07:25.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:26. > :07:29.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:30. > :07:34.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:35. > :07:38.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:39. > :07:42.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:43. > :07:46.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:47. > :07:51.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:52. > :07:58.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:07:59. > :08:07.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:08. > :08:11.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:12. > :08:19.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:20. > :08:23.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:24. > :08:29.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:30. > :08:36.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:37. > :08:39.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:40. > :08:45.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:46. > :08:50.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:51. > :08:56.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:57. > :09:01.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:02. > :09:05.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:06. > :09:09.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:10. > :09:13.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:14. > :09:20.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:21. > :09:25.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:26. > :09:30.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:31. > :09:34.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:35. > :09:39.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:40. > :09:43.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:44. > :09:47.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:48. > :09:52.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:53. > :09:55.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:56. > :10:00.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:01. > :10:05.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:06. > :10:10.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:11. > :10:13.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:14. > :10:20.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:21. > :10:24.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:25. > :10:29.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:30. > :10:35.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:36. > :10:42.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:43. > :10:45.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:46. > :10:52.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:53. > :10:55.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:56. > :11:01.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:02. > :11:07.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:08. > :11:10.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:11. > :11:15.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:16. > :11:22.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:23. > :11:27.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:28. > :11:32.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:33. > :11:44.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:45. > :11:48.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:49. > :12:01.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:02. > :12:06.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:07. > :12:10.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:11. > :12:13.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:14. > :12:18.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:19. > :12:22.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:23. > :12:29.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:30. > :12:36.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:37. > :12:44.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:45. > :12:47.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:48. > :12:52.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:53. > :12:56.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:57. > :13:01.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:02. > :13:04.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:05. > :13:11.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:12. > :13:17.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:18. > :13:22.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:23. > :13:29.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:30. > :13:34.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:35. > :13:40.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.