:00:37. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:51.After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas
:00:52. > :00:53.every building that fails will be evacuated.
:00:54. > :00:58.The government promises Britain will be a strong global
:00:59. > :01:01.trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,
:01:02. > :01:04.we'll ask the international trade minister how.
:01:05. > :01:09.As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status
:01:10. > :01:21.Later will the Labour leader
:01:22. > :01:23.of terror attacks - what can be done to restore
:01:24. > :01:36.And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political
:01:37. > :01:38.pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,
:01:39. > :01:40.Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:41. > :01:43.They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.
:01:44. > :01:46.First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks
:01:47. > :01:50.across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,
:01:51. > :01:52.following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people
:01:53. > :02:01.According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks
:02:02. > :02:04.has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.
:02:05. > :02:08.The government plans to examine up to
:02:09. > :02:12.600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.
:02:13. > :02:15.The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth
:02:16. > :02:20.as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden
:02:21. > :02:23.and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services
:02:24. > :02:28.Camden has already evacuated residents from
:02:29. > :02:33.650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such
:02:34. > :02:35.as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before
:02:36. > :02:47.When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity
:02:48. > :02:53.and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national
:02:54. > :02:56.system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as
:02:57. > :03:00.muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is
:03:01. > :03:05.striking how every single building they test seems to fail these
:03:06. > :03:07.regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the
:03:08. > :03:13.regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is
:03:14. > :03:17.most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been
:03:18. > :03:21.told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were
:03:22. > :03:24.told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets
:03:25. > :03:28.outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation
:03:29. > :03:33.that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in
:03:34. > :03:38.instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about
:03:39. > :03:42.social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about
:03:43. > :03:47.the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.
:03:48. > :03:52.People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building
:03:53. > :03:57.regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable
:03:58. > :04:00.material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,
:04:01. > :04:07.America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of
:04:08. > :04:10.the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and
:04:11. > :04:14.this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for
:04:15. > :04:20.a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are
:04:21. > :04:24.several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting
:04:25. > :04:27.this stuff into housing associations, where the controls
:04:28. > :04:31.have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is
:04:32. > :04:33.build more homes and every government announces they are going
:04:34. > :04:38.to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of
:04:39. > :04:44.these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a
:04:45. > :04:47.crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,
:04:48. > :04:52.frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second
:04:53. > :04:56.look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had
:04:57. > :05:00.kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in
:05:01. > :05:05.fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national
:05:06. > :05:11.and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about
:05:12. > :05:15.residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm
:05:16. > :05:18.hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,
:05:19. > :05:24.there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the
:05:25. > :05:27.politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which
:05:28. > :05:34.is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the
:05:35. > :05:38.initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to
:05:39. > :05:41.make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the
:05:42. > :05:47.result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils
:05:48. > :05:50.who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national
:05:51. > :05:56.failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.
:05:57. > :06:00.Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been
:06:01. > :06:05.slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge
:06:06. > :06:07.potential for this to snowball especially if we have other
:06:08. > :06:13.buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in
:06:14. > :06:16.the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word
:06:17. > :06:22.austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his
:06:23. > :06:25.targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't
:06:26. > :06:27.take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.
:06:28. > :06:31.Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver
:06:32. > :06:34.a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global
:06:35. > :06:37.trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,
:06:38. > :06:41.David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get
:06:42. > :06:44.a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure
:06:45. > :06:48.from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just
:06:49. > :06:52.the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,
:06:53. > :06:53.French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,
:06:54. > :06:58.you name it. The balance of trade basically
:06:59. > :07:01.is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest
:07:02. > :07:09.in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,
:07:10. > :07:12.on all sides on trade. And I've been joined
:07:13. > :07:17.by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are
:07:18. > :07:19.five main national business organisations in Britain and all of
:07:20. > :07:25.them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the
:07:26. > :07:29.EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a
:07:30. > :07:35.difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is
:07:36. > :07:41.not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with
:07:42. > :07:46.ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to
:07:47. > :07:50.the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You
:07:51. > :07:56.can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to
:07:57. > :07:59.be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they
:08:00. > :08:03.will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade
:08:04. > :08:08.ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is
:08:09. > :08:13.very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.
:08:14. > :08:16.We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,
:08:17. > :08:22.you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the
:08:23. > :08:25.rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the
:08:26. > :08:30.same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you
:08:31. > :08:34.have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at
:08:35. > :08:38.the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like
:08:39. > :08:51.the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The
:08:52. > :08:55.Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the
:08:56. > :09:00.stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to
:09:01. > :09:05.the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the
:09:06. > :09:12.customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a
:09:13. > :09:23.customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the
:09:24. > :09:28.first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from
:09:29. > :09:32.outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm
:09:33. > :09:37.told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a
:09:38. > :09:41.novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.
:09:42. > :09:46.We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from
:09:47. > :09:51.no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To
:09:52. > :09:54.do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the
:09:55. > :10:00.Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single
:10:01. > :10:03.market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a
:10:04. > :10:12.transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get
:10:13. > :10:17.on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective
:10:18. > :10:20.we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying
:10:21. > :10:24.across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard
:10:25. > :10:26.interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want
:10:27. > :10:30.to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to
:10:31. > :10:36.do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able
:10:37. > :10:40.to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this
:10:41. > :10:45.transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it
:10:46. > :10:49.is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by
:10:50. > :10:53.the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition
:10:54. > :11:00.them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with
:11:01. > :11:04.America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at
:11:05. > :11:07.the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working
:11:08. > :11:11.through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current
:11:12. > :11:15.arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week
:11:16. > :11:19.was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk
:11:20. > :11:22.about the current trading relationship, how do we make things
:11:23. > :11:26.better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs
:11:27. > :11:29.work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start
:11:30. > :11:35.thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,
:11:36. > :11:42.can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We
:11:43. > :11:49.can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during
:11:50. > :11:53.the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what
:11:54. > :11:58.we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue
:11:59. > :12:06.between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU
:12:07. > :12:13.will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.
:12:14. > :12:17.Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with
:12:18. > :12:21.trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there
:12:22. > :12:28.is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and
:12:29. > :12:31.as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,
:12:32. > :12:36.what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed
:12:37. > :12:40.country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no
:12:41. > :12:48.tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we
:12:49. > :12:52.give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the
:12:53. > :12:58.EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,
:12:59. > :13:02.despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but
:13:03. > :13:07.the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place
:13:08. > :13:17.with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all
:13:18. > :13:20.the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we
:13:21. > :13:26.are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,
:13:27. > :13:34.since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I
:13:35. > :13:43.have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also
:13:44. > :13:48.called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do
:13:49. > :13:53.you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to
:13:54. > :13:56.harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that
:13:57. > :14:02.people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.
:14:03. > :14:07.What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make
:14:08. > :14:12.an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will
:14:13. > :14:16.the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to
:14:17. > :14:20.work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the
:14:21. > :14:25.immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK
:14:26. > :14:29.economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of
:14:30. > :14:33.reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the
:14:34. > :14:40.priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs
:14:41. > :14:44.of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say
:14:45. > :14:49.meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more
:14:50. > :14:52.important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to
:14:53. > :14:56.the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital
:14:57. > :15:03.error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer
:15:04. > :15:07.workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,
:15:08. > :15:12.and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a
:15:13. > :15:15.general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or
:15:16. > :15:22.keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a
:15:23. > :15:24.businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of
:15:25. > :15:29.business and the success of our economy that we can afford the
:15:30. > :15:32.social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work
:15:33. > :15:36.through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through
:15:37. > :15:40.Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target
:15:41. > :15:44.of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital
:15:45. > :15:50.changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.
:15:51. > :15:57.Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted
:15:58. > :16:01.to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this
:16:02. > :16:07.morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out
:16:08. > :16:10.the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the
:16:11. > :16:15.principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy
:16:16. > :16:21.or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime
:16:22. > :16:25.Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's
:16:26. > :16:30.speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will
:16:31. > :16:33.be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers
:16:34. > :16:39.and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and
:16:40. > :16:44.there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out
:16:45. > :16:49.of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to
:16:50. > :16:55.say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are
:16:56. > :17:01.two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you
:17:02. > :17:08.what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's
:17:09. > :17:09.aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank
:17:10. > :17:12.you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics
:17:13. > :17:15.in the general election, increasing Labour's share
:17:16. > :17:16.of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use
:17:17. > :17:20.the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy
:17:21. > :17:23.has been finding out. Enjoying superstar
:17:24. > :17:27.status at Glastonbury. Since when did being
:17:28. > :17:31.a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually
:17:32. > :17:37.about everyday life. It's about all of us
:17:38. > :17:40.and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want
:17:41. > :17:44.for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,
:17:45. > :17:53.playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer
:17:54. > :18:02.of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election
:18:03. > :18:06.glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting
:18:07. > :18:12.in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader
:18:13. > :18:21.now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead
:18:22. > :18:23.in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader
:18:24. > :18:29.for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world
:18:30. > :18:40.is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann
:18:41. > :18:42.MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,
:18:43. > :18:46.is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling
:18:47. > :18:48.in the Labour Party, and there are people on both
:18:49. > :18:51.sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing
:18:52. > :18:54.better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his
:18:55. > :18:57.position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential
:18:58. > :19:01.Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress
:19:02. > :19:04.which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says
:19:05. > :19:06.now the party is more In the general election,
:19:07. > :19:26.the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot
:19:27. > :19:29.forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign
:19:30. > :19:31.pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull
:19:32. > :19:36.together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,
:19:37. > :19:38.staying up for the summer #. Before the election,
:19:39. > :19:41.a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and
:19:42. > :19:44.anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked
:19:45. > :19:47.into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine
:19:48. > :19:50.Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,
:19:51. > :19:52.attack the party staff, change the party rules,
:19:53. > :19:54.will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more
:19:55. > :19:57.interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that
:19:58. > :20:01.unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,
:20:02. > :20:05.is led from the top. The way in which internal
:20:06. > :20:10.hostilities would recommend The way in which internal
:20:11. > :20:13.hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return
:20:14. > :20:16.to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts
:20:17. > :20:20.to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors
:20:21. > :20:22.are going to fight If there are attempts to cross
:20:23. > :20:30.a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,
:20:31. > :20:32.again that would cause And if there are attempts to change
:20:33. > :20:43.the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan
:20:44. > :20:45.advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,
:20:46. > :20:48.but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball
:20:49. > :20:51.is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate
:20:52. > :20:54.at conference, though, on what some are calling
:20:55. > :20:56.the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower
:20:57. > :20:59.the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have
:21:00. > :21:06.been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate
:21:07. > :21:09.to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference
:21:10. > :21:20.is finely balanced on that. Because the elections
:21:21. > :21:22.for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge
:21:23. > :21:25.between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those
:21:26. > :21:28.around the 9th of July And then it all depends
:21:29. > :21:36.on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like
:21:37. > :21:38.the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite
:21:39. > :21:45.and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn
:21:46. > :21:57.supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another
:21:58. > :22:00.general election within six months and are remaining
:22:01. > :22:02.in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting
:22:03. > :22:04.new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists
:22:05. > :22:06.in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing
:22:07. > :22:09.new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get
:22:10. > :22:11.involved in the election. Safe to say, they're
:22:12. > :22:13.feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly
:22:14. > :22:18.opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words
:22:19. > :22:20.and have apologised. Look, in the general election
:22:21. > :22:24.campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates
:22:25. > :22:31.in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they
:22:32. > :22:36.stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates
:22:37. > :22:39.who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats
:22:40. > :22:45.for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way
:22:46. > :22:48.we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last
:22:49. > :22:52.till the next election because we all want to
:22:53. > :22:54.win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,
:22:55. > :23:02.staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,
:23:03. > :23:06.but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor
:23:07. > :23:11.to Labour winning power? Before the general election
:23:12. > :23:19.was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party
:23:20. > :23:27.was played out in the election of the general secretary
:23:28. > :23:29.of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,
:23:30. > :23:36.who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,
:23:37. > :23:38.faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour
:23:39. > :23:40.moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,
:23:41. > :23:43.and this week he was sacked from his Unite position
:23:44. > :23:50.as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been
:23:51. > :23:55.the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by
:23:56. > :24:00.that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed
:24:01. > :24:05.for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about
:24:06. > :24:10.nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it
:24:11. > :24:16.showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's
:24:17. > :24:19.a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for
:24:20. > :24:23.misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's
:24:24. > :24:27.because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the
:24:28. > :24:32.evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the
:24:33. > :24:36.union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in
:24:37. > :24:42.relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and
:24:43. > :24:46.no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own
:24:47. > :24:52.independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond
:24:53. > :25:01.parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused
:25:02. > :25:09.of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."
:25:10. > :25:12.What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision
:25:13. > :25:18.reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the
:25:19. > :25:22.involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in
:25:23. > :25:27.terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of
:25:28. > :25:32.quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So
:25:33. > :25:35.actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe
:25:36. > :25:42.I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show
:25:43. > :25:47.trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the
:25:48. > :25:52.proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the
:25:53. > :25:56.different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our
:25:57. > :26:00.members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They
:26:01. > :26:04.wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a
:26:05. > :26:12.different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes
:26:13. > :26:16.but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters
:26:17. > :26:20.that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a
:26:21. > :26:25.legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make
:26:26. > :26:30.sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you
:26:31. > :26:35.think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the
:26:36. > :26:38.certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the
:26:39. > :26:44.result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in
:26:45. > :26:47.the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification
:26:48. > :26:52.Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High
:26:53. > :27:00.Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I
:27:01. > :27:04.think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this
:27:05. > :27:09.certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High
:27:10. > :27:14.Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it
:27:15. > :27:17.say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be
:27:18. > :27:25.sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a
:27:26. > :27:31.robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for
:27:32. > :27:36.it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the
:27:37. > :27:40.election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and
:27:41. > :27:44.for most employees if they have had that length of service, some
:27:45. > :27:51.consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been
:27:52. > :27:55.re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.
:27:56. > :28:01.Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a
:28:02. > :28:07.key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've
:28:08. > :28:10.lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general
:28:11. > :28:14.election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about
:28:15. > :28:20.a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the
:28:21. > :28:25.party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an
:28:26. > :28:29.influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that
:28:30. > :28:33.starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the
:28:34. > :28:36.electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than
:28:37. > :28:42.being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what
:28:43. > :28:46.you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the
:28:47. > :28:51.Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The
:28:52. > :28:56.reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the
:28:57. > :29:01.disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in
:29:02. > :29:04.Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically
:29:05. > :29:08.linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a
:29:09. > :29:12.much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a
:29:13. > :29:16.member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed
:29:17. > :29:22.from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?
:29:23. > :29:27.That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?
:29:28. > :29:31.I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear
:29:32. > :29:38.from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have
:29:39. > :29:43.felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's
:29:44. > :29:46.important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure
:29:47. > :29:51.they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being
:29:52. > :29:54.with us. I've been joined now from Leeds
:29:55. > :30:07.by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy
:30:08. > :30:10.Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he
:30:11. > :30:18.use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why
:30:19. > :30:23.would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,
:30:24. > :30:26.if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow
:30:27. > :30:29.Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are
:30:30. > :30:34.vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the
:30:35. > :30:40.man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for
:30:41. > :30:43.the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also
:30:44. > :30:48.wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable
:30:49. > :30:53.decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour
:30:54. > :30:59.member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and
:31:00. > :31:05.that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There
:31:06. > :31:11.will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,
:31:12. > :31:15.when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned
:31:16. > :31:19.against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party
:31:20. > :31:24.reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is
:31:25. > :31:29.a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we
:31:30. > :31:33.will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be
:31:34. > :31:36.clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was
:31:37. > :31:39.previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction
:31:40. > :31:44.in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you
:31:45. > :31:50.say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.
:31:51. > :31:54.He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not
:31:55. > :32:01.going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have
:32:02. > :32:07.got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a
:32:08. > :32:11.piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has
:32:12. > :32:15.changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.
:32:16. > :32:19.The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the
:32:20. > :32:23.many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election
:32:24. > :32:26.campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the
:32:27. > :32:31.new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the
:32:32. > :32:35.changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say
:32:36. > :32:39.this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools
:32:40. > :32:49.and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the
:32:50. > :32:52.leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not
:32:53. > :32:59.going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want
:33:00. > :33:02.that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last
:33:03. > :33:09.couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER
:33:10. > :33:12.They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to
:33:13. > :33:16.listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics
:33:17. > :33:20.has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard
:33:21. > :33:26.Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the
:33:27. > :33:30.problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair
:33:31. > :33:34.years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across
:33:35. > :33:38.the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve
:33:39. > :33:42.them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the
:33:43. > :33:47.last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a
:33:48. > :33:50.problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about
:33:51. > :33:57.that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker
:33:58. > :34:00.for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of
:34:01. > :34:03.these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people
:34:04. > :34:08.and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move
:34:09. > :34:14.to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will
:34:15. > :34:19.see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.
:34:20. > :34:24.Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a
:34:25. > :34:27.long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants
:34:28. > :34:35.to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to
:34:36. > :34:39.express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election
:34:40. > :34:43.it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on
:34:44. > :34:47.the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or
:34:48. > :34:52.the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That
:34:53. > :34:56.is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look
:34:57. > :35:02.carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate
:35:03. > :35:07.will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the
:35:08. > :35:15.Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is
:35:16. > :35:18.suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change
:35:19. > :35:22.it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have
:35:23. > :35:28.different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in
:35:29. > :35:32.action and what happened in the general election showed the idea
:35:33. > :35:35.that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than
:35:36. > :35:43.doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election
:35:44. > :35:48.in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of
:35:49. > :35:57.votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.
:35:58. > :36:03.Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I
:36:04. > :36:07.have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people
:36:08. > :36:12.especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.
:36:13. > :36:17.Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John
:36:18. > :36:20.McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of
:36:21. > :36:24.the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a
:36:25. > :36:29.letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?
:36:30. > :36:36.That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to
:36:37. > :36:38.have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within
:36:39. > :36:44.the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on
:36:45. > :36:50.membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I
:36:51. > :36:55.will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any
:36:56. > :37:02.particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will
:37:03. > :37:05.see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another
:37:06. > :37:09.in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit
:37:10. > :37:13.which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which
:37:14. > :37:21.working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was
:37:22. > :37:22.asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of
:37:23. > :37:29.the single market or not? Alp policy Labour policy to remain members of
:37:30. > :37:34.is to secure all of the rights which exist, tariff free access, within
:37:35. > :37:38.the single market and the customs union, and we are not saying that a
:37:39. > :37:44.particular institutional form is something we've always ourselves to
:37:45. > :37:49.at this stage. Are you for or against remaining members of the
:37:50. > :37:54.single market? It is not a question of four it is about securing the
:37:55. > :38:01.best possible arrangement for our economy and working people -- it is
:38:02. > :38:09.not a question of for or against. The labour MP Clive Lewis said
:38:10. > :38:12.Thatcher economic dogma was to blame for Grenfell Tower, but we know many
:38:13. > :38:19.tower blocks have been clad in the same material by Labour councils,
:38:20. > :38:24.was that also the fault of Thatcherite economic dogma? It is
:38:25. > :38:27.very difficult to say exactly what happened, and I worked in the
:38:28. > :38:30.building industry for many years and I know the regulations were very
:38:31. > :38:38.tight. It now looks as though something happened with the building
:38:39. > :38:42.regulations. And apart from that, we can't say exactly what lies behind
:38:43. > :38:52.this. By Tory and Labour councils, that is my point, both parties have
:38:53. > :38:56.questions to answer. Yes, but the government have sat on the
:38:57. > :38:58.recommendations, like the recommendation of this printer
:38:59. > :39:06.systems, they have sat on those documents for years. -- sprinkler
:39:07. > :39:11.systems. Do you think all parties should stop trying to make political
:39:12. > :39:17.capital out of what is effectively a national disaster? And tried to get
:39:18. > :39:20.to the bottom of a system explained the and try to do better regardless
:39:21. > :39:25.of the party? Yes, everyone should do the same. The sooner we get the
:39:26. > :39:28.results of the inquiry the better, but if there are decisions which can
:39:29. > :39:33.be made sooner than the public inquiry they should be made and
:39:34. > :39:40.implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks for joining us.
:39:41. > :39:49.It's just gone 1140, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:50. > :39:51.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
:39:52. > :39:55.In a few minutes, we speak to someone who knows more
:39:56. > :39:58.than most about Article 50 - the man who wrote it.
:39:59. > :40:00.And the Welsh Conservative leader will be here to explain how
:40:01. > :40:06.he thinks his own party should be making Brexit work for Wales.
:40:07. > :40:10.But first, are education targets really important?
:40:11. > :40:13.One leading expert says they're critical for economic success.
:40:14. > :40:17.Professor David Reynolds, who used to advise the Welsh Government,
:40:18. > :40:20.has told this programme Wales risks becoming an economic backwater
:40:21. > :40:25.if the international ranking Pisa test results don't improve.
:40:26. > :40:28.His comments came at the end of a week when ministers seemed to
:40:29. > :40:31.disagree about whether they remained a target at all.
:40:32. > :40:41.Hit it, and after congratulating ourselves, we can think
:40:42. > :40:44.about setting a new, more ambitious goal.
:40:45. > :40:51.Miss it, and we need to ask ourselves what went wrong.
:40:52. > :40:55.But what if the target changes whilst we're trying to reach it?
:40:56. > :40:58.In 2014, the then education minister replaced the Welsh Government's Pisa
:40:59. > :41:03.target with a new one - for Wales to obtain a score of 500
:41:04. > :41:12.in each of the subjects assessed by the Pisa education tests by 2021.
:41:13. > :41:15.At the time, Kirsty Williams said the move showed an "absolute
:41:16. > :41:22.The most recent results showed we've made progress in maths,
:41:23. > :41:25.but we'd fallen back in science and reading.
:41:26. > :41:28.We remain behind the rest of the UK in all three areas,
:41:29. > :41:36.But at least we knew how far we have still had to go.
:41:37. > :41:40.Then, last week, the new Education Secretary distanced
:41:41. > :41:44.And so it's a much more complex picture than just
:41:45. > :41:46.saying we're going to have this individual target.
:41:47. > :41:51.OK, so the target now isn't the stated aim of 500,
:41:52. > :41:59.But a few days later, the First Minister insisted
:42:00. > :42:01.the Government's aim hadn't changed, much to the amusement
:42:02. > :42:06.Achieving 500 by 2021 remains the Welsh Government's target.
:42:07. > :42:08.The Cabinet Secretary was correct when she said
:42:09. > :42:10.she didn't set the target, because she wasn't the minister
:42:11. > :42:13.at the time, but she is part of the government that is adhering
:42:14. > :42:18.So, we've got you saying one thing - that the target exists -
:42:19. > :42:21.and you've got the Cabinet Secretary confirming in front of a scrutiny
:42:22. > :42:25.committee of this Assembly that it is not her target.
:42:26. > :42:27.Who's taking ownership of education here in Wales?
:42:28. > :42:30.Is it any wonder it is such a complete shambles
:42:31. > :42:34.Kirsty Williams has now confirmed that the Welsh Government
:42:35. > :42:36.target hasn't changed, but there remains concern
:42:37. > :42:38.and confusion over the events of the past ten days,
:42:39. > :42:43.with the issue of collective responsibility being raised.
:42:44. > :42:48.Kirsty Williams is the sole Lib Dem in Carwyn Jones'
:42:49. > :42:55.It does now leave them to ask the question,
:42:56. > :42:59.Should we be aiming for targets at all?
:43:00. > :43:02.And if so, what merits are we being judged on?
:43:03. > :43:04.Are we being judged on the performance as set out
:43:05. > :43:07.by the Education Cabinet Secretary or by the Welsh Government itself,
:43:08. > :43:10.and if we don't have clarity on that, then it becomes even more
:43:11. > :43:13.meaningless, really, to put weight on Pisa results.
:43:14. > :43:17.This may be a little bit awkward in next week's Cabinet meeting,
:43:18. > :43:19.but it's probably quite a sensible move by Kirsty Williams.
:43:20. > :43:22.The Pisa targets have tripped up several successive Welsh Government
:43:23. > :43:27.As a Liberal Democrat, Kirsty Williams has got
:43:28. > :43:30.a little bit of wiggle room, and I think she's used it quite well
:43:31. > :43:32.this week to put some distance between herself
:43:33. > :43:36.In the meantime, how likely is it that Wales
:43:37. > :43:43.I asked a former Welsh Government adviser for his assessment.
:43:44. > :43:46.We can meet it if teacher training improves, if we get
:43:47. > :43:49.the knowledge base out there, and if we make our teachers master
:43:50. > :43:51.craftsmen and women of teaching, which many countries have done.
:43:52. > :43:56.If we did that, then we could be very, very
:43:57. > :43:58.close to those targets, but I fear, at the moment,
:43:59. > :44:06.we're not doing it, so it ain't going to happen.
:44:07. > :44:10.You say that this is an ambitious target, to reach the score of 500,
:44:11. > :44:12.and yet when you look at many other countries around the world,
:44:13. > :44:15.their scores are higher than that score of 500.
:44:16. > :44:17.500 is merely the average, really, so that just shows
:44:18. > :44:19.how far off the pace we are, doesn't it?
:44:20. > :44:26.The Welsh Government says Pisa is just one yardstick for measuring
:44:27. > :44:31.But according to Professor Reynolds...
:44:32. > :44:33.In a globalised world, Pisa is the most important
:44:34. > :44:39.Pisa is about how different countries are doing,
:44:40. > :44:43.and I think probably the important thing to say is that industrially,
:44:44. > :44:45.there is some evidence to look at Pisa tests, too.
:44:46. > :44:48.If you look back at 2010, when Shanghai, China,
:44:49. > :44:50.suddenly came from nowhere to be top, if you look at foreign
:44:51. > :44:57.If industrialists are looking at Pisa, and they are,
:44:58. > :45:00.the answer is to get those scores up, to get industry in,
:45:01. > :45:04.or we risk becoming just a kind of theme park here without industry.
:45:05. > :45:05.The Education Secretary wasn't available to be
:45:06. > :45:14.However, a spokesman said the Welsh Government has introduced
:45:15. > :45:17.a number of initiatives to attract new teachers and raise standards,
:45:18. > :45:19.and Kirsty Williams expects to see an improvement in Wales's Pisa
:45:20. > :45:28.and Kirsty Williams expects to see an improvement in Wales's Pisa
:45:29. > :45:32.Now, a tremendous amount has been said and written about the ins
:45:33. > :45:35.and outs of Article 50, the process by which the UK
:45:36. > :45:37.leaves the European Union, but what does the man
:45:38. > :45:41.Lord Kerr was our man in Washington and Brussels before turning his hand
:45:42. > :45:43.to writing the article which has dominated politics
:45:44. > :45:48.But he now says it could and should be reversed, so when I spoke to him,
:45:49. > :45:56.I began by asking how and why that could ever be possible.
:45:57. > :46:02.We are members of the European Union until the moment we leave,
:46:03. > :46:05.and since we triggered the procedure in March 2017, we leave in March
:46:06. > :46:16.You will know that UK Government ministers,
:46:17. > :46:17.David Davis, even Theresa May, have been saying that actually,
:46:18. > :46:19.once we have triggered that Article 50 process,
:46:20. > :46:30.No, no, no, no - it is perfectly possible for us to change our mind.
:46:31. > :46:32.Look at what the President of the European Council has said,
:46:33. > :46:36.look at what president Macron has said, look at what the German
:46:37. > :46:37.finance minister, Dr Schauble, said the other day.
:46:38. > :46:47.Look at what all the lawyers, all the EU lawyers, say.
:46:48. > :46:50.It is open to the member state to change its intention.
:46:51. > :46:52.The first part of the article, Article 50, says that "according
:46:53. > :46:54.to your own constitutional requirements," you decide
:46:55. > :46:56.that you want to leave, and you notify your intention,
:46:57. > :47:00.and then after two years you are out, unless the period is extended.
:47:01. > :47:02.But during the two years or its extension, it is open
:47:03. > :47:05.to you to say, "Actually, we've now changed our mind,
:47:06. > :47:11.Whether they agreed would be a political question, of course,
:47:12. > :47:15.We would be entirely within our rights, but they might
:47:16. > :47:18.try to extract some sort of price from us if we'd wasted
:47:19. > :47:35.So, you are saying we could change our mind, we could return,
:47:36. > :47:37.but not necessarily to as things were before Article 50
:47:38. > :47:45.I'm not quite sure why we triggered it in March,
:47:46. > :47:47.and then did nothing for three months, because we called
:47:48. > :47:53.I'm not sure what the point of that was.
:47:54. > :47:55.And of course, there has been no negotiation of any
:47:56. > :47:57.kind until this week, so one year has passed
:47:58. > :47:59.since the referendum, and we have said nothing
:48:00. > :48:07.But isn't it a wise cause of action for the UK Government ministers not
:48:08. > :48:09.to reveal their hands, as it were, considering this
:48:10. > :48:20.Well, I mean, the idea that you can negotiate in secret
:48:21. > :48:26.The commission are negotiating on behalf of 27 member states,
:48:27. > :48:29.and everything they do, they will report to their clients,
:48:30. > :48:37.So it will all be available on the internet, and you can see
:48:38. > :48:40.today, 50 pages of documents, which have been agreed by the other
:48:41. > :48:45.You won't find a single page of British documents,
:48:46. > :48:54.Now, this is a point which I think is a great mistake.
:48:55. > :48:57.I think it would be better to play at home, we'd be better to negotiate
:48:58. > :49:00.on the basis of documents that we've put forward rather than the basis
:49:01. > :49:06.But as also the man who was for a time the UK's man
:49:07. > :49:09.in Brussels, if you like, as UK ambassador to the EU,
:49:10. > :49:12.how do you rate the chances of the UK getting a good deal
:49:13. > :49:17.working with those other EU member states?
:49:18. > :49:21.I think everybody wants a decent working relationship
:49:22. > :49:25.with a Britain that has left and the European Union.
:49:26. > :49:28.I think nobody wants to punish the European Union for going.
:49:29. > :49:36.We will have to pay a price, and our economy will grow less fast
:49:37. > :49:39.than it would have if we'd stayed inside, but nobody wants to pile
:49:40. > :49:45.I do think that the issues that are being discussed in the first
:49:46. > :49:46.round of the negotiation, and particularly the money,
:49:47. > :49:48.are particularly difficult, because money negotiation
:49:49. > :50:08.The EU doesn't want to let us off our bill.
:50:09. > :50:14.If we do a runner and refuse to pay the bill, then you can forget that
:50:15. > :50:16.close relationship that all sides, I think, want.
:50:17. > :50:19.We've discussed how the negotiations are going from Brussels point
:50:20. > :50:23.I wonder what you make of how the UK Government has discussed and taken
:50:24. > :50:26.on board the views of devolved administrations in the UK,
:50:27. > :50:27.the Welsh Government, Scottish Government,
:50:28. > :50:30.do you think they've been engaging enough
:50:31. > :50:36.with the constituent parts of the UK?
:50:37. > :50:41.There doesn't appear to have been much details discussion
:50:42. > :50:43.There doesn't appear to have been much detailed discussion
:50:44. > :50:45.with the Welsh Government or the Scottish Government
:50:46. > :50:49.about the negotiating positions we should take up.
:50:50. > :50:53.I think it's probably more worrying that I don't think there's been any
:50:54. > :50:55.discussion at all yet about the Repeal Bill
:50:56. > :50:57.which is about to be tabled in Parliament.
:50:58. > :50:59.The Repeal Bill lays down what should happen
:51:00. > :51:10.in areas like agriculture, where at present, policy
:51:11. > :51:13.is run from Brussels - the Common Agricultural Policy.
:51:14. > :51:15.Where these decision should be taken when we've left Brussels.
:51:16. > :51:18.Should they be taken by central government or should they be taken
:51:19. > :51:28.Yes, but the Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns,
:51:29. > :51:31.has said recently that the UK Government wants as much
:51:32. > :51:38.as possible to devolve those powers back to Cardiff.
:51:39. > :51:41.But I just wonder, do you think that an unhappy Welsh Government,
:51:42. > :51:43.Scottish Government, could derail the process of these
:51:44. > :51:46.Well, I very much hope that won't happen.
:51:47. > :51:52.As I say, I'm not an insider, but I do think it will be very
:51:53. > :51:54.important that the Whitehall government, the London government,
:51:55. > :51:57.makes sure that it has the consent of the Welsh Government and Assembly
:51:58. > :51:59.and the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament
:52:00. > :52:02.for what it is proposing to do with the powers that it proposes
:52:03. > :52:11.I myself, going back to where you started,
:52:12. > :52:15.I would like to believe that it is still possible
:52:16. > :52:18.for the country to change its mind when it sees that it was,
:52:19. > :52:21.in the referendum campaign, told a lot of things that weren't
:52:22. > :52:26.actually true by those campaigning to leave.
:52:27. > :52:29.When it sees that the economy is slowing down as a result
:52:30. > :52:36.of the referendum decision, I would hope that the country
:52:37. > :52:42.feel that this question needs to be...
:52:43. > :52:47.But by which mechanism could that be decided?
:52:48. > :52:49.Because you are saying within the two years we can reverse
:52:50. > :52:52.this Article 50 and halt the process, if you like,
:52:53. > :52:55.but there wouldn't be a second referendum.
:52:56. > :52:57.We just had an election with the Liberal Democrats
:52:58. > :53:00.are offering a second referendum, and they were roundly defeated,
:53:01. > :53:06.so how would you bring about that reversal?
:53:07. > :53:10.I'm fairly expert on the legal position in Brussels
:53:11. > :53:16.and what would happen in Brussels if we did change our mind.
:53:17. > :53:18.The process, in this country, of getting a change of mind,
:53:19. > :53:25.I think it is probably the case that it would need a general
:53:26. > :53:27.election or another referendum, or both, in order to be
:53:28. > :53:32.clear that the country had changed its mind.
:53:33. > :53:39.But David Davis, who is a serious political thinker
:53:40. > :53:43.as well as a negotiator - David Davis is on record as saying
:53:44. > :53:46.that the democracy that cannot change its mind has ceased to be
:53:47. > :53:49.a democracy, and it seems to me that as the facts become clear,
:53:50. > :53:53.we are entitled to consider whether we want to change our mind.
:53:54. > :53:56.There we are, Lord Kerr, thank you very much for your time.
:53:57. > :54:02.Now, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives is a leading
:54:03. > :54:03.Brexiteer, even tweeting, "Happy Independence Day"
:54:04. > :54:08.on the anniversary of the Brexit vote on Friday.
:54:09. > :54:10.So why is Andrew RT Davies apparently challenging his party's
:54:11. > :54:27.Maybe we can talk a little about it. Thanks for coming in. We just heard
:54:28. > :54:32.the man who wrote Article 50 saying the process should be reversed. I
:54:33. > :54:35.probably know what your answer will be but are there any circumstances
:54:36. > :54:40.under which you could go along with that? I did find it a little
:54:41. > :54:45.bizarre, he said your guess is as good as mine how we do it. We had a
:54:46. > :54:49.democratic process last year where we had the biggest participation of
:54:50. > :54:59.voters in the referendum on the die was cast and a mandate was given to
:55:00. > :55:01.the government. Both sides in the referendum is will be binding. So
:55:02. > :55:03.instead of all this energy and focus about trying to reverse the
:55:04. > :55:06.referendum result, why don't we put more effort in a cross-party
:55:07. > :55:11.approach to come to a consensus about Wales and the UK and how we
:55:12. > :55:15.want them to be after the negotiations have concluded. So
:55:16. > :55:20.cross-party is fine once negotiations are concluded but not
:55:21. > :55:25.before then? On the 24th of June I may be offered to Carwyn Jones, I
:55:26. > :55:29.said, we will put different sides of the debate but the die has been
:55:30. > :55:33.cast, let's work together to ensure we get a successful outcome for
:55:34. > :55:38.Wales and the UK. Sadly he never took that offer up. I said from day
:55:39. > :55:45.one... On the UK Government side as well, Tejerizo may have very much
:55:46. > :55:51.said this is down to me and nobody else, I am the Prime Minister -- the
:55:52. > :55:56.Prime Minister has said. Not much role for Parliament according to
:55:57. > :56:00.hurt there. I disagree. Ultimately the Prime Minister has to make the
:56:01. > :56:05.final call, but right the way along the line from the devolved nations
:56:06. > :56:09.and governments, right the way through, there have been talks,
:56:10. > :56:12.discussions, about shaping the agenda for these negotiations, and
:56:13. > :56:16.some have walked away from them, some change their position, but one
:56:17. > :56:20.thing to say about the Prime Minister from her Lancaster house
:56:21. > :56:24.speech, she put 12 key principles down to guide the negotiations, but
:56:25. > :56:28.discussions continue with the devolved administrations and in
:56:29. > :56:39.Parliament, and the more those discussions include and have
:56:40. > :56:44.clarity at their part the better of -- heart -- at their heart the
:56:45. > :56:46.better the outcome for the United Kingdom and Europe. You wrote an
:56:47. > :56:48.article at the end of last week saying the joint ministerial
:56:49. > :56:50.committee, this forum whereby the ministers... I see people's eyes
:56:51. > :56:54.glazing over! Stick with me. Where all the governments come together to
:56:55. > :56:57.discuss the issues of the day. Carwyn Jones has said Wales and
:56:58. > :57:02.Scotland have been ignored and the UK Government is not listening to
:57:03. > :57:06.them. Your article seems to go along with that, saying this is in the
:57:07. > :57:11.1950s, we need to establish better ways to engage as the United
:57:12. > :57:27.Kingdom. Is that the fault of the UK Government? Do you feel they
:57:28. > :57:31.are not listening to Wales? It is listening but the point I made back
:57:32. > :57:33.in November, December, was that agricultural, for example, we need
:57:34. > :57:36.UK frameworks. At that point I was saying I was anti-devolution -- that
:57:37. > :57:37.people were saying I was anti-devolution. Now it is
:57:38. > :57:39.mainstream thinking we need UK frameworks. When we come out,
:57:40. > :57:42.whether they're our transitional arrangements or not they will have
:57:43. > :57:48.to be a body that will arbitrate whether our disputes between the
:57:49. > :57:52.nations and the UK. We can't have a 1950s, 60s government. We need one
:57:53. > :57:58.that works... What you mean by that? We were very centralist state in the
:57:59. > :58:02.50s and 60s. I believe Theresa May and the Westminster government has
:58:03. > :58:06.worked tirelessly to bring those administrations along but let's face
:58:07. > :58:10.it, we have a nationalist government in Scotland, a Labour government in
:58:11. > :58:14.Wales, and the political dynamics make it challenging with a
:58:15. > :58:17.Conservative government in Westminster and suspended executive
:58:18. > :58:26.in Northern Ireland, that is why from a Welsh perspective it is
:58:27. > :58:28.important rather than Carwyn Jones and Welsh Labour taking the lead,
:58:29. > :58:31.burqas most people seem to be saying we should look to Carwyn Jones and
:58:32. > :58:34.the Welsh Labour recipe book for the solution, it is the Assembly itself
:58:35. > :58:40.that should take the lead. And by that logic the UK Parliament rather
:58:41. > :58:43.than UK Government should be discussing with other parties Hywel
:58:44. > :58:47.post Brexit we should move forward because we haven't seen any of that.
:58:48. > :58:51.You seem to say one thing for Wales, the Assembly should be a cross-party
:58:52. > :58:55.approach, but what we are seeing with your colleagues in London is
:58:56. > :58:59.very much not a cross-party approach. Again I disagree. If you
:59:00. > :59:03.look at the evidence the Prime Minister and the government have
:59:04. > :59:06.reached out repeatedly. We have the joint ministerial committee in
:59:07. > :59:17.Cardiff, the Prime Minister brought it to Cardiff for the discussion.
:59:18. > :59:19.What I am looking at is post-Brexit and what we can do from a
:59:20. > :59:22.legislative point of view in the Assembly is lead the discussions in
:59:23. > :59:25.Wales where we can reach consensus amongst parties. Surely when we
:59:26. > :59:28.speak with one voice... It is for colleagues... That is the political
:59:29. > :59:34.dynamic that will have to be taken into consideration, but if you have
:59:35. > :59:36.discussions... You have made that point, but how confident are you
:59:37. > :59:43.that your colleagues in London will listen to your call now that it will
:59:44. > :59:47.be the small consensus approach post-Brexit, or are they falling on
:59:48. > :59:50.deaf ears? I believe that discussion will continue and ultimately
:59:51. > :59:55.succeed. Have you spoken to anybody in the UK Government about it? I
:59:56. > :59:59.have spoken to several politicians and advisers in the UK Government.
:00:00. > :00:04.What I am trying to get at is will this happen? If you look at my
:00:05. > :00:11.position, whether on Brexit, I voted for it in a positive way... You are
:00:12. > :00:14.trying to lead a discussion before we have had negotiations. If you
:00:15. > :00:19.look at the record of what we talked about from the Welsh Conservative
:00:20. > :00:23.point of view, whether Brexit, UK frameworks, leading the multiparty
:00:24. > :00:26.discussion from the Assembly rather than thinking Labour have the
:00:27. > :00:33.solutions when they don't, in London for example they have changed their
:00:34. > :00:36.position. I believe to have a successful UK Government we need
:00:37. > :00:39.plurality and we will get that. Another thing you said during and
:00:40. > :00:47.since the referendum is you don't want Wales to be a penny worse off
:00:48. > :00:52.because we are leaving the EU. Now, from structural funding, European
:00:53. > :00:58.grant money for Wales, it has ?83 per person. In England it is ?13,
:00:59. > :01:03.Scotland ?18, Northern Ireland, ?13. If Wales gets less than ?83 per
:01:04. > :01:07.person, whatever money after that, will that be a disappointment to
:01:08. > :01:11.you? There are two sides of the coin. What we need to do is wait
:01:12. > :01:15.shall -- make sure Wales generates more wealth than empower communities
:01:16. > :01:24.to make more wealth and get on. The reason we have so much objective one
:01:25. > :01:27.funding is because our communities have been kept dirt poor by Whaley
:01:28. > :01:30.opossum -- label's failures since devolution. The money isn't about...
:01:31. > :01:39.You said that money should still... What we need to do is make sure that
:01:40. > :01:45.in tandem with security... We need to make sure Wales is worse off, let
:01:46. > :01:48.me take this further, we need to build economic capacity so
:01:49. > :01:53.ultimately we generate more wealth. I welcome Carl Sargeant's move away
:01:54. > :01:57.from that dependency culture on the communities first project to a
:01:58. > :02:01.project to generate wealth in communities, but I do not believe
:02:02. > :02:07.Labour are able to do that because they don't understand the dynamics
:02:08. > :02:11.of the economy. We have seen repeatedly... Time is tight. We
:02:12. > :02:15.didn't see that promise of a Shared Prosperity Fund in the Queen's
:02:16. > :02:20.speech. Are you confident that is still there? That is the principle
:02:21. > :02:24.underpinning the government economy post Brexit. We need to make sure
:02:25. > :02:27.funding is in place for agriculture, structural funds and higher
:02:28. > :02:30.education which are vital ingredients for the economy in Wales
:02:31. > :02:33.and we will work with Westminster colleagues to ensure Wales isn't at
:02:34. > :02:34.a disadvantage. Thank you for your time.
:02:35. > :02:39.You can follow us on Twitter of course - we're @walespolitics
:02:40. > :02:42.Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.
:02:43. > :02:48.We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.
:02:49. > :02:53.And with that it's back to you, Andrew.
:02:54. > :02:55.What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give
:02:56. > :03:03.Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,
:03:04. > :03:05.the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House
:03:06. > :03:29.A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond
:03:30. > :03:34.becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.
:03:35. > :03:40.What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming
:03:41. > :03:46.on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for
:03:47. > :03:50.it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also
:03:51. > :03:57.be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good
:03:58. > :04:00.sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way
:04:01. > :04:05.manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not
:04:06. > :04:08.saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that
:04:09. > :04:14.there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but
:04:15. > :04:19.there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that
:04:20. > :04:22.ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might
:04:23. > :04:25.have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election
:04:26. > :04:30.campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the
:04:31. > :04:34.feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly
:04:35. > :04:39.self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by
:04:40. > :04:45.triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a
:04:46. > :04:52.world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a
:04:53. > :04:55.plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he
:04:56. > :05:01.will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber
:05:02. > :05:06.Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's
:05:07. > :05:10.support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as
:05:11. > :05:14.well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about
:05:15. > :05:23.this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit
:05:24. > :05:29.supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But
:05:30. > :05:33.everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead
:05:34. > :05:37.them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new
:05:38. > :05:42.leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something
:05:43. > :05:46.in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,
:05:47. > :05:49.pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and
:05:50. > :05:52.if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might
:05:53. > :05:58.be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have
:05:59. > :06:03.David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.
:06:04. > :06:06.David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.
:06:07. > :06:09.Let me be absolutely plain about this.
:06:10. > :06:12.Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.
:06:13. > :06:15.I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,
:06:16. > :06:18.I've seen a number of prime ministers in
:06:19. > :06:21.Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.
:06:22. > :06:24.She makes good decisions, she's bold.
:06:25. > :06:26.There's no crisis about this government.
:06:27. > :06:28.It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.
:06:29. > :06:32.Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.
:06:33. > :06:38.What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around
:06:39. > :06:40.in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership
:06:41. > :06:46.Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.
:06:47. > :06:53.Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite
:06:54. > :06:57.sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on
:06:58. > :07:03.manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not
:07:04. > :07:06.being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if
:07:07. > :07:11.they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace
:07:12. > :07:15.the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,
:07:16. > :07:20.what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge
:07:21. > :07:25.difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is
:07:26. > :07:28.why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very
:07:29. > :07:35.self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it
:07:36. > :07:38.is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they
:07:39. > :07:42.are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the
:07:43. > :07:46.operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know
:07:47. > :07:50.who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was
:07:51. > :07:54.asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not
:07:55. > :08:01.getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is
:08:02. > :08:07.on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with
:08:08. > :08:13.this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in
:08:14. > :08:19.a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was
:08:20. > :08:22.sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen
:08:23. > :08:26.to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much
:08:27. > :08:32.the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've
:08:33. > :08:36.spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they
:08:37. > :08:39.would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is
:08:40. > :08:43.happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the
:08:44. > :08:47.Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief
:08:48. > :08:51.Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you
:08:52. > :08:56.don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have
:08:57. > :09:01.Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals
:09:02. > :09:07.from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but
:09:08. > :09:10.the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an
:09:11. > :09:14.arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the
:09:15. > :09:21.government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be
:09:22. > :09:23.slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater
:09:24. > :09:27.priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority
:09:28. > :09:32.government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the
:09:33. > :09:36.hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they
:09:37. > :09:40.can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are
:09:41. > :09:48.no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That
:09:49. > :09:51.is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland
:09:52. > :09:55.politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is
:09:56. > :09:58.a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that
:09:59. > :10:04.is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure
:10:05. > :10:07.for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will
:10:08. > :10:11.be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus
:10:12. > :10:15.on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory
:10:16. > :10:23.which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and
:10:24. > :10:26.-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the
:10:27. > :10:31.moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they
:10:32. > :10:35.think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of
:10:36. > :10:39.votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour
:10:40. > :10:43.think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire
:10:44. > :10:49.and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will
:10:50. > :10:52.put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they
:10:53. > :10:56.have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the
:10:57. > :11:01.House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor
:11:02. > :11:07.dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour
:11:08. > :11:14.Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election
:11:15. > :11:19.if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who
:11:20. > :11:23.shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.
:11:24. > :11:27.If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an
:11:28. > :11:32.election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a
:11:33. > :11:41.government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,
:11:42. > :11:41.how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,
:11:42. > :11:46.because what we saw from the machine, Parliamentary machine,
:11:47. > :11:50.election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any expectations in his talents as a
:11:51. > :11:54.campaigner but the fundamentals, if you talk to labour MPs who have been
:11:55. > :11:59.sceptical about him, haven't changed in terms of his ability to manage
:12:00. > :12:02.the Parliamentary party. Nothing that has happened so far in terms of
:12:03. > :12:06.the rhetoric coming out from Labour on Brexit gives any cause for
:12:07. > :12:13.confidence that there is a strategy or even a tone that has been set
:12:14. > :12:21.that is coherent. You heard the Unite union man Gerard Coyne who
:12:22. > :12:24.believes he has been purged from the organisation and he believed that
:12:25. > :12:29.could happen in the party, as well. But if you have achieved what Jeremy
:12:30. > :12:31.Corbyn has achieved, and he is now ahead in the polls, even if they
:12:32. > :12:37.don't matter much will stop he has better ratings than Theresa May now.
:12:38. > :12:43.Why would you not say, this is a winning formula and I will rebuild
:12:44. > :12:48.the party in my image? It is a legitimate thing to do, but Europe
:12:49. > :12:51.is crucial. That is why Labour was like another election sooner rather
:12:52. > :12:55.than later before any crucial votes on things like the customs union and
:12:56. > :12:57.freedom of movement because they held together a much bigger
:12:58. > :13:05.coalition than anybody thought but they did that on the back of angry
:13:06. > :13:10.Remainers. This could factor again for them. When we talk about
:13:11. > :13:14.remaking the Labour Party in the image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question
:13:15. > :13:18.is, is that someone who is sceptical about Europe, and you will see some
:13:19. > :13:21.Labour MPs rebelling on Europe because they know that's the thing
:13:22. > :13:30.the members agree with them on, and not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is
:13:31. > :13:33.a long time in politics, as Harold Wilson said.
:13:34. > :13:37.Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon tomorrow with the Daily Politics,
:13:38. > :13:40.and I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am with
:13:41. > :14:09.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:10. > :14:13.then we have to treat only patients with very early stages of