:00:38. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:44.Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal
:00:45. > :00:48.Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.
:00:49. > :00:51.But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing
:00:52. > :00:54.for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?
:00:55. > :00:58.Having defied expectation in last month's general election,
:00:59. > :01:01.are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party
:01:02. > :01:08.The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has
:01:09. > :01:10.devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political
:01:11. > :01:13.storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover
:01:14. > :01:20.If the pay cap is lifted, who should pay for it,
:01:21. > :01:23.And the Education Secretary tells us why she's expecting
:01:24. > :01:25.a fall in GCSE results. Havering council are about to vote
:01:26. > :01:47.on breaking away from the capital. If we are darking today we apoll
:01:48. > :01:53.jierks it could be a power cut or the BBC is trying to save money with
:01:54. > :01:53.its fuel bill! Assuming you can see them...
:01:54. > :01:58.And with me - as always - for TV's second most keenly watched
:01:59. > :01:59.on-screen relationships after Love Island,
:02:00. > :02:01.the Sunday Politics panel - Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer
:02:02. > :02:07.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:02:08. > :02:09.So - Donald Trump says a trade deal with UK could be
:02:10. > :02:12.Theresa May says that other world leaders,
:02:13. > :02:15.including those of China, India and Japan, are also keen to do
:02:16. > :02:20.President and PM were speaking at the G20 summit of the world's major
:02:21. > :02:24.President and PM were speaking at the G20 summit of the world's major
:02:25. > :02:27.But could the transitional deal that some want,
:02:28. > :02:30.that would keep the UK in the EU's single market and Customs Union
:02:31. > :02:33.for several years after exit, put paid to those plans?
:02:34. > :02:35.Here's what the man likely to be the next Lib Dem leader -
:02:36. > :02:43.Vince Cable - told the Marr show earlier.
:02:44. > :02:45.I'm beginning to think that Brexit may never happen,
:02:46. > :02:52.The problems are so enormous, the divisions within the two major
:02:53. > :02:56.parties are so enormous, I can see a scenario
:02:57. > :03:04.We're joined now from Shropshire by the former
:03:05. > :03:06.Conservative Cabinet Minister and leading Brexit
:03:07. > :03:11.Ogise, it could be a power cut or the BBC is trying to save money with
:03:12. > :03:14.its fuel bill! Assuming you can see them... Good morning to you, Vince
:03:15. > :03:18.Cable says that he thinks Brexit may now not happen, what do you say to
:03:19. > :03:24.that? What is new? Vince Cable always wanted to stay in the
:03:25. > :03:27.European Union, he is chucking buckets of water round, we had a
:03:28. > :03:31.huge vote last year, we had an enormous vote in the House of
:03:32. > :03:38.Commons, 494 votes to trigger Article 50, we had an election
:03:39. > :03:43.campaign in which the two main parties took 85% of the vote they
:03:44. > :03:48.back the speech and leaving the customs union and the single market
:03:49. > :03:51.and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party went down in votes as did the other
:03:52. > :03:55.parties that want to stay in the European Union. So Vince is behind
:03:56. > :04:01.history, we are going to leave, we are on target, Michael Gove
:04:02. > :04:07.triggered leaving the 1964 London convention so we can take back
:04:08. > :04:11.control of the seas and bring back a sane fishing policy and more
:04:12. > :04:15.important getting environmental gained in our marine environment,
:04:16. > :04:20.so... You think we are still heading for the exit but Mrs May called the
:04:21. > :04:24.election because she wanted a mandate for her version of Brexit.
:04:25. > :04:28.She didn't get it. Surely you can't just continue with business as
:04:29. > :04:34.usual? Well, we have been over the election, we did not get the number
:04:35. > :04:39.of sees we wanted but on votes, we got 13.7 million, that is more than
:04:40. > :04:43.the great Blair landslide. You had an overall majority and you lost it.
:04:44. > :04:50.That is a fact. I said that. We know that. So you didn't get the mandate.
:04:51. > :04:55.We got the vote! We got a lot votes and so did the Labour Party. You
:04:56. > :04:58.know we are in a Parliamentary system where what matters is the
:04:59. > :05:01.number of seats you get in the Commons, you know enough about the
:05:02. > :05:05.British constitution to know a that is what determines the mandate. Not
:05:06. > :05:09.the number of votes, we are not a Presidential system.
:05:10. > :05:13.I am First Minister throughly wear of that. 85% of the election voted
:05:14. > :05:19.for parties that wanted to leave. If you take votes in the Commons last
:05:20. > :05:23.week on the Queen's Speech not a single Conservative MP abstained or
:05:24. > :05:29.voted against and the Labour Party unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and
:05:30. > :05:35.amendment wanting us to stay in the customs union and got hammered. So,
:05:36. > :05:40.I am clear that we have to deliver this, much the most important point
:05:41. > :05:47.in all this, is if we do not deliver a proper Brexit which means leaving
:05:48. > :05:52.the single market, leaving the customs union and the jurisdiction
:05:53. > :05:58.of the ECJ, there will be appalling damage to the integrity of the whole
:05:59. > :06:02.establishment. Not just political, you, the media, and the judicial
:06:03. > :06:06.establishment. Some would say that damage has already been done in
:06:07. > :06:11.other area, let us look at the detail. Under Article 50 Britain
:06:12. > :06:16.leaves the EU in 20 months which means the deal will have to be done
:06:17. > :06:20.in 15 or 16 months to allow for people to approve it in the various
:06:21. > :06:26.Parliaments and so son. Progress has the been glacial. We have only just
:06:27. > :06:30.begun. Why should there not be a transitional deal that keep some of
:06:31. > :06:36.the current arrangements in place to mitigate this falling off a cliff?
:06:37. > :06:43.As Liam said in the Commons, Liam who? Liam Fox, this should be one of
:06:44. > :06:48.the easiest ever deals to conclude, because already, we have zero
:06:49. > :06:54.tariffs, already we have complete conformty on standards and already,
:06:55. > :06:59.those who are negotiating with us have an enormous surplus, the
:07:00. > :07:08.Germans sold an enormous number of cars, so that is the basis on which,
:07:09. > :07:11.if you look at Nafta... We haven't even started talking about free
:07:12. > :07:20.trade yet. That is not on the agenda yet. Let me finish. If you look at
:07:21. > :07:26.Nafta, that took 14 months, we are starting on a basis of mutual
:07:27. > :07:29.recognition of all our standard and zero tariffs so yes, there will be
:07:30. > :07:35.an implementation period but it is very very important politically this
:07:36. > :07:39.is concluded fast, as a huge economic imperative as well, because
:07:40. > :07:42.it is uncertainty about this that will damage future investment and
:07:43. > :07:47.job, the quicker we get on with it and we know where we are going and
:07:48. > :07:51.we can reach out to the world, we can take advantage of the fact
:07:52. > :07:55.stated on the European Commission website that 9 a 5% of the world's
:07:56. > :08:02.growth is going to come from outside European Union, which is what we are
:08:03. > :08:08.seeing, we have seen sales go from 61% to 43% and it is tumbling to
:08:09. > :08:13.43%. We cannot take advantage of these wonderful opportunities in the
:08:14. > :08:21.wider world... Why not? Why not? Germany does. Because they can't
:08:22. > :08:25.conclude free trade deals. Germany runs a balance of payment surplus,
:08:26. > :08:31.it finds it possible to trade with the rest of the EU and with the rest
:08:32. > :08:36.of the world. It has a bigger surplus than China, if Germany can
:08:37. > :08:44.do both why can't we? They can't. They can't conclude deal, we Trump
:08:45. > :08:49.wants to do a deal with us. You saw Theresa May sitting down with the
:08:50. > :08:53.economies of the future, India, China, South Korea, these are all
:08:54. > :09:00.longing to do more business with us, we can only do that once we are out
:09:01. > :09:05.of the customs union, that is vital for the future of this country, that
:09:06. > :09:09.is where the future growth is. The business in this country says we
:09:10. > :09:14.should stay in the single market and the customs union, at least through
:09:15. > :09:21.a transition period. Does that count for nothing, is Tory party now so
:09:22. > :09:28.antebusiness it ignores the wealth creators? I think what you are
:09:29. > :09:33.saying is that the CBI which represents very large organisations
:09:34. > :09:36.has made that statement, but talking to business widely, and smaller
:09:37. > :09:39.private businesses which dominate the economy, what is vital on this
:09:40. > :09:44.is to have a rapid implementation period. That is what is important.
:09:45. > :09:50.And there has to be clarity of where we are going, if we are in permanent
:09:51. > :09:55.limbo which will take a enormous amount of negotiation and will take
:09:56. > :09:57.ratification by the 27 countries and the European Parliament as well as
:09:58. > :10:03.our own, that will drag things out. What we need to do is a clean Claire
:10:04. > :10:08.statement of reciprocal free trade which should be really pretty easy
:10:09. > :10:12.to negotiate because we have that, we have conformty of standard, we
:10:13. > :10:17.have an implementation period. That needs to be done rapidly. Latest by
:10:18. > :10:20.the next election. OK, we shall see how simple it turns out to be. Thank
:10:21. > :10:27.you for joining us here. What do you make of this increasing
:10:28. > :10:31.talk of transition period in which it is not clear, we remain full
:10:32. > :10:36.members of the single market, full members of the customs union? Which
:10:37. > :10:41.came we cannot conclude very quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free
:10:42. > :10:47.trade deal? This is where the battle is now heading, between Brexiteer,
:10:48. > :10:54.levers, re-levers and the lot of it. This will be really what the only
:10:55. > :10:57.thing we could achieve in the next negotiations, what has changed since
:10:58. > :11:02.the general election which you were touching on there, is of course
:11:03. > :11:05.Brussels in the year 2017 are no longer negotiating with Theresa May,
:11:06. > :11:11.they are negotiating with the House of Commons and the you know majority
:11:12. > :11:15.for a softer Brexit, so this will begin, the transition deal will
:11:16. > :11:18.define the rest of deal, the rest of the final relationship, so getting
:11:19. > :11:22.the transition on the right trajectory is crucial, hence why you
:11:23. > :11:28.have Philip Hammond making a major play to try and keep one foot in the
:11:29. > :11:31.EU, if not necessarily in the custom union and the single market and
:11:32. > :11:35.everyone else says get out. These are the opening skirmishes on what
:11:36. > :11:38.will certainly be the nettle that will will be grasped round about
:11:39. > :11:43.some time between October and spring next year. Are you worried that the
:11:44. > :11:47.election result, the fact that she didn't get this mandate that she had
:11:48. > :11:51.looked for and she has ended up in a weaker position than she was before
:11:52. > :11:55.the election, is going to make Brexit more difficult, it is going
:11:56. > :12:01.to muddy the water, it means her idea of Brexit is not necessarily
:12:02. > :12:06.the one that become Brexit? Yes I am worried are about as a Brexiteer,
:12:07. > :12:13.the same remain yaks would have been trying to scupper the will of the
:12:14. > :12:21.British people as expressed in June 2016. Now they might succeed. I
:12:22. > :12:26.don't think any will succeed. We have to stop this nonsense and the
:12:27. > :12:29.media included, of this talk of soft Brexit an transition period. We have
:12:30. > :12:34.a transition period once we are out when we are leading to the next
:12:35. > :12:38.process, with have to be out of the single market, and not under the
:12:39. > :12:42.European Court of Justice. All within the two years, all by
:12:43. > :12:48.March... That happens automatically, then we can agree for a two, three
:12:49. > :12:55.year max, three year period we will have a position as we move to the
:12:56. > :12:58.new deal, but I don't think there many Leave voters, most Remain
:12:59. > :13:02.voters accept that result, unlike the people like the CBI who are
:13:03. > :13:05.fighting against it still, they will accept anything more than that. I
:13:06. > :13:12.think Owen Paterson is right. We are in a situation where we will face
:13:13. > :13:15.some serious disflus the establishment, the political world,
:13:16. > :13:23.the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey the will of the people. What do you
:13:24. > :13:27.make of the reports in the Sunday papers, it was only ten days ago,
:13:28. > :13:32.two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going to be the caretaker leader, that is
:13:33. > :13:38.a story that didn't seem to last 48-hour, but what do you make of the
:13:39. > :13:45.remain MPs on both sides of the House, plus peers, are going to try
:13:46. > :13:51.to derail this repeal act, that the Government needs to push EU law on
:13:52. > :13:56.to the UK statute book. I I think they will use it to at certain key
:13:57. > :14:00.points to attempt to defeat the Government, not over the whole
:14:01. > :14:06.thing, this summer reminds me so much of the summer of 92 who the
:14:07. > :14:11.Maastricht Treaty coming into a fragile John Major Government, and
:14:12. > :14:14.people then were plotting, in the opposite direction, Eurosceptics to
:14:15. > :14:19.try and stop that. He won with a huge percentage of the vote. Tiny
:14:20. > :14:28.majority, 23, bigger than she would have died for that. A shock victory.
:14:29. > :14:32.The The summer was full of talk and plotting, some which came to
:14:33. > :14:36.fruition in the sessions after and some will come into fruition from
:14:37. > :14:39.this autumn on ward where you will see alliances across the Commons
:14:40. > :14:43.manned the Lords, there will be moments of high Parliamentary drama,
:14:44. > :14:50.I think. Sounds like a long hot autumn.
:14:51. > :15:00.An a long hot autumn, and winter. Winter too? I thought it was all
:15:01. > :15:01.global warming. This will add to the temperature!
:15:02. > :15:04.Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election,
:15:05. > :15:06.but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable
:15:07. > :15:07.as Labour leader for the foreseeable future.
:15:08. > :15:11.So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago -
:15:12. > :15:20.Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the
:15:21. > :15:25.party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of
:15:26. > :15:29.deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get
:15:30. > :15:34.deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his
:15:35. > :15:37.comments in another interview. Chris Williamson, the newly appointed
:15:38. > :15:41.labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary
:15:42. > :15:47.party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if
:15:48. > :15:51.MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency
:15:52. > :15:57.parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable
:15:58. > :16:02.waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won
:16:03. > :16:07.several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite
:16:08. > :16:13.quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr
:16:14. > :16:23.Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends.
:16:24. > :16:26.Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these
:16:27. > :16:30.usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included
:16:31. > :16:34.prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and
:16:35. > :16:39.tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow
:16:40. > :16:41.Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally,
:16:42. > :16:44.Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting
:16:45. > :16:46.any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think
:16:47. > :16:48.about actually, who are Who are making the problems
:16:49. > :16:55.for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous
:16:56. > :16:57.policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're
:16:58. > :17:01.fighting each other. We're joined now from
:17:02. > :17:02.Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister,
:17:03. > :17:14.Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour
:17:15. > :17:20.frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support
:17:21. > :17:24.the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find
:17:25. > :17:35.someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad
:17:36. > :17:41.that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an
:17:42. > :17:47.election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a
:17:48. > :17:51.mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said
:17:52. > :17:55.this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and
:17:56. > :17:58.how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but
:17:59. > :18:02.also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever
:18:03. > :18:09.that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and
:18:10. > :18:15.doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to
:18:16. > :18:20.as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have
:18:21. > :18:23.been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested,
:18:24. > :18:28.it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe,
:18:29. > :18:38.hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015
:18:39. > :18:45.government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already
:18:46. > :18:49.refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk
:18:50. > :18:55.and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus
:18:56. > :18:59.on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party
:19:00. > :19:02.hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour
:19:03. > :19:13.political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the
:19:14. > :19:17.most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is
:19:18. > :19:23.outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's
:19:24. > :19:28.constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she
:19:29. > :19:36.now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise
:19:37. > :19:43.for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That
:19:44. > :19:47.is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a
:19:48. > :19:56.majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the
:19:57. > :20:00.truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members
:20:01. > :20:03.in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this
:20:04. > :20:12.individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done.
:20:13. > :20:16.Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and
:20:17. > :20:20.Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions,
:20:21. > :20:26.he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20
:20:27. > :20:30.years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who
:20:31. > :20:35.didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or
:20:36. > :20:40.apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party
:20:41. > :20:44.and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on
:20:45. > :20:48.policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with
:20:49. > :20:53.that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not
:20:54. > :20:56.happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think
:20:57. > :21:02.moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election
:21:03. > :21:06.badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop
:21:07. > :21:11.him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he
:21:12. > :21:15.didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people
:21:16. > :21:19.who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported
:21:20. > :21:25.and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they
:21:26. > :21:28.represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy
:21:29. > :21:33.thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago
:21:34. > :21:39.John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election
:21:40. > :21:42.I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened
:21:43. > :21:51.in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against
:21:52. > :21:56.an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and
:21:57. > :22:02.said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just
:22:03. > :22:11.finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to
:22:12. > :22:17.me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in
:22:18. > :22:21.outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises
:22:22. > :22:24.that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were
:22:25. > :22:31.working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up
:22:32. > :22:34.for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and
:22:35. > :22:40.the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I
:22:41. > :22:45.take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need
:22:46. > :22:50.from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he
:22:51. > :22:55.has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks
:22:56. > :22:59.ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly
:23:00. > :23:01.issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we
:23:02. > :23:05.have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a
:23:06. > :23:09.very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from
:23:10. > :23:14.the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach,
:23:15. > :23:24.and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are
:23:25. > :23:27.saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think
:23:28. > :23:32.moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were
:23:33. > :23:44.always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy
:23:45. > :23:48.Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally
:23:49. > :23:53.wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a
:23:54. > :23:58.continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters
:23:59. > :24:05.and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are
:24:06. > :24:10.at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to
:24:11. > :24:15.where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class
:24:16. > :24:19.voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting
:24:20. > :24:23.for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting
:24:24. > :24:27.Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad
:24:28. > :24:29.church and representing working-class people is at the heart
:24:30. > :24:33.of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to
:24:34. > :24:39.have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That
:24:40. > :24:46.would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in
:24:47. > :24:48.disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us.
:24:49. > :24:50.This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry
:24:51. > :24:53.would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares
:24:54. > :24:55.to begin to examine what caused the tragedy.
:24:56. > :24:57.But some have warned that the situation now needs
:24:58. > :24:59.to be de-politicised, or it will damage
:25:00. > :25:02.In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea
:25:03. > :25:04.where the Grenfell Tower fire took place.
:25:05. > :25:07.But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played
:25:08. > :25:22.a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event.
:25:23. > :25:27.When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts
:25:28. > :25:31.are about the people, not about the politics.
:25:32. > :25:44.What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend.
:25:45. > :25:46.storm that those in power struggled to respond to.
:25:47. > :25:51.We want justice, we want justice, we want justice...
:25:52. > :25:58.People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall.
:25:59. > :26:01.A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced
:26:02. > :26:09.At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked
:26:10. > :26:15.What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous
:26:16. > :26:19.And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:26:20. > :26:26.Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more,
:26:27. > :26:37.were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
:26:38. > :26:39.I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised
:26:40. > :26:45.I think using terms like murder is completely reckless
:26:46. > :26:53.The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts
:26:54. > :26:57.this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated.
:26:58. > :26:59.And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations
:27:00. > :27:02.or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse
:27:03. > :27:08.The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it
:27:09. > :27:17.Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped
:27:18. > :27:21.to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but
:27:22. > :27:26.for others, it was entirely justified.
:27:27. > :27:29.That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge
:27:30. > :27:35.the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people
:27:36. > :27:38.round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics
:27:39. > :27:41.Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign
:27:42. > :27:43.for building improvements in previous years, and returned
:27:44. > :27:47.I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been
:27:48. > :27:50.to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents
:27:51. > :27:54.with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political
:27:55. > :27:57.things about land in London and property ownership in London,
:27:58. > :28:01.Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this?
:28:02. > :28:06.Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention
:28:07. > :28:11.to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower,
:28:12. > :28:23.and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed.
:28:24. > :28:26.It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that."
:28:27. > :28:28.We already know two very clear things.
:28:29. > :28:29.Had the people there been protected by sprinklers,
:28:30. > :28:32.People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers.
:28:33. > :28:35.The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had
:28:36. > :28:39.They should be done year in, year out.
:28:40. > :28:41.Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos
:28:42. > :28:43.or threes, which doesn't make a political statement.
:28:44. > :28:44.So the political parties haven't really needed
:28:45. > :28:50.They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once
:28:51. > :28:53.The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues,
:28:54. > :28:55.has already faced calls for its newly appointed
:28:56. > :28:59.And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP
:29:00. > :29:05.You would call on him, would you, to stand down?
:29:06. > :29:10.I don't think there will be any credibility and some people
:29:11. > :29:13.are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work.
:29:14. > :29:18.I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability...
:29:19. > :29:21.I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks
:29:22. > :29:28.It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get
:29:29. > :29:33.to the truth and that's the most important thing now.
:29:34. > :29:35.Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political,
:29:36. > :29:44.but will the politics help get to the truth?
:29:45. > :29:46.I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington -
:29:47. > :29:49.who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad.
:29:50. > :30:01.Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't
:30:02. > :30:05.met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words
:30:06. > :30:09.understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling
:30:10. > :30:14.me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody
:30:15. > :30:19.looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been
:30:20. > :30:23.involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post
:30:24. > :30:28.Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This
:30:29. > :30:31.issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody
:30:32. > :30:35.with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the
:30:36. > :30:40.rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend
:30:41. > :30:44.what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but
:30:45. > :30:48.you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with
:30:49. > :30:52.meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order
:30:53. > :30:55.to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have
:30:56. > :30:59.done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly.
:31:00. > :31:05.What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he
:31:06. > :31:08.made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am
:31:09. > :31:12.reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in
:31:13. > :31:16.your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human
:31:17. > :31:19.beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what
:31:20. > :31:23.people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly
:31:24. > :31:29.betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been
:31:30. > :31:34.betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used
:31:35. > :31:39.top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for
:31:40. > :31:43.that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether
:31:44. > :31:48.or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part
:31:49. > :31:51.of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as
:31:52. > :31:58.the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of
:31:59. > :32:02.commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a
:32:03. > :32:07.lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a
:32:08. > :32:11.specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and
:32:12. > :32:15.doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly
:32:16. > :32:19.need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as
:32:20. > :32:23.anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there
:32:24. > :32:27.is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we
:32:28. > :32:32.all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was
:32:33. > :32:36.chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this
:32:37. > :32:40.inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent
:32:41. > :32:44.inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is
:32:45. > :32:48.he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of
:32:49. > :32:53.people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not
:32:54. > :33:00.involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the
:33:01. > :33:04.victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who
:33:05. > :33:09.directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate.
:33:10. > :33:13.Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent,
:33:14. > :33:17.they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from
:33:18. > :33:21.it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not
:33:22. > :33:25.only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign
:33:26. > :33:29.groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area.
:33:30. > :33:35.What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this
:33:36. > :33:39.If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives
:33:40. > :33:43.from different groups who can at least advise and feed in
:33:44. > :33:47.information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But
:33:48. > :33:52.rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you
:33:53. > :33:57.saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he
:33:58. > :34:01.should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an
:34:02. > :34:04.advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At
:34:05. > :34:08.the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable,
:34:09. > :34:12.and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster,
:34:13. > :34:16.the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what
:34:17. > :34:20.people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s
:34:21. > :34:25.it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people
:34:26. > :34:29.who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor
:34:30. > :34:33.says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision
:34:34. > :34:38.do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of
:34:39. > :34:41.people feel like that. There is massive failure of political
:34:42. > :34:46.decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an
:34:47. > :34:52.active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be
:34:53. > :34:55.right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I
:34:56. > :34:59.don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a
:35:00. > :35:03.failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment
:35:04. > :35:09.for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has
:35:10. > :35:13.been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was
:35:14. > :35:19.looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad.
:35:20. > :35:24.Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on
:35:25. > :35:29.the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The
:35:30. > :35:36.process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make
:35:37. > :35:39.it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been
:35:40. > :35:46.clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by
:35:47. > :35:53.chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that
:35:54. > :36:00.decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the
:36:01. > :36:03.the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the
:36:04. > :36:08.specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come
:36:09. > :36:14.before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The
:36:15. > :36:20.advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the
:36:21. > :36:23.time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the
:36:24. > :36:29.specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of
:36:30. > :36:33.the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have
:36:34. > :36:40.any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have
:36:41. > :36:45.been accused of... That because my predecessor said I should take
:36:46. > :36:48.responsibility, a clueing colleague of mine got beaten up for that,
:36:49. > :36:53.there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing
:36:54. > :36:59.that up. Thank you for joining us too.
:37:00. > :37:01.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:02. > :37:03.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:37:04. > :37:07.Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.
:37:08. > :37:14.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:15. > :37:19.Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
:37:20. > :37:21.In a few minutes, the Education Secretary tells us what she's
:37:22. > :37:27.going to do about an expected fall in GCSE results this year.
:37:28. > :37:30.But first the main political row of the week has been about the pay
:37:31. > :37:35.Should it be abandoned and if so, who should cough up the extra money?
:37:36. > :37:38.Ministers here say it's down to Westminster to pay,
:37:39. > :37:41.and guess what, ministers there say the opposite!
:37:42. > :37:48.How much should public sector workers be paid?
:37:49. > :37:51.Or rather, how much more should they be paid?
:37:52. > :37:54.It's a question that's dominated the headlines in recent weeks amidst
:37:55. > :37:57.increasing pressure on the UK Government to scrap its 1% cap
:37:58. > :38:05.Neil Evans is an A nurse with 16 years experience at the Princess
:38:06. > :38:12.He'd like to sit more exams and gain extra qualifications,
:38:13. > :38:16.but he says the pay cap has made him consider leaving the job altogether.
:38:17. > :38:19.I've taken a second job with a health care bank,
:38:20. > :38:21.with another health board as well as my own.
:38:22. > :38:30.That's what I'm finding a lot of my colleagues are doing.
:38:31. > :38:32.What we call health care bank, they are doing agency,
:38:33. > :38:34.they are doing what they can to survive every month.
:38:35. > :38:38.They work full time, come out of university with degrees,
:38:39. > :38:41.and a lot of us have been in the job a long time.
:38:42. > :38:46.I have, seriously considered packing it in.
:38:47. > :38:48.Taking a job in a supermarket, or somewhere less stressful.
:38:49. > :38:51.Unless nurses are offered a better deal, the Royal College of Nursing
:38:52. > :38:55.says it is prepared to do something it's never done before,
:38:56. > :38:59.and ballot its members for industrial action.
:39:00. > :39:03.Why are we putting our nurses in that position?
:39:04. > :39:07.Why are the politicians not removing the cap?
:39:08. > :39:10.It's forcing public sector workers into poverty.
:39:11. > :39:12.And we are a rich country, it's possible to find money
:39:13. > :39:17.from areas to do things, why isn't it possible to find money
:39:18. > :39:27.The UK Government makes its decisions on public pay
:39:28. > :39:29.after receiving recommendations from eight independent pay review
:39:30. > :39:32.bodies, who consider the needs to recruit,
:39:33. > :39:41.They also consider the government's financial circumstances,
:39:42. > :39:44.and since 2010 public sector pay has either been frozen or
:39:45. > :39:50.Despite inflation, currently merging 3%.
:39:51. > :39:52.The Welsh government could deviate from the policy,
:39:53. > :39:54.and scrap the cap year for public sector staff working
:39:55. > :40:01.If Westminster, through the Treasury, isn't giving
:40:02. > :40:04.additional resources to the Welsh government to go beyond the 1% pay
:40:05. > :40:08.cap that is provided for in the settlement,
:40:09. > :40:11.then that will come from the Welsh government's own resources,
:40:12. > :40:14.and will be taken from other areas of the budget, front
:40:15. > :40:19.So it comes down to the basic political question about
:40:20. > :40:22.where the priorities on in the Welsh government budget.
:40:23. > :40:26.The Welsh government says it would cost around ?110 million
:40:27. > :40:30.to give public sector workers in Wales an extra 1%
:40:31. > :40:34.With around ?60 million needed for the 76,000
:40:35. > :40:40.Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood, believes that is affordable.
:40:41. > :40:44.If it is a priority for Labour UK wide, it should be a priority
:40:45. > :40:50.We are calling upon the Welsh government to commit
:40:51. > :40:56.We've estimated the cost of this to be around 60 odd million pounds,
:40:57. > :41:00.in a budget of ?15 billion, that can be found, if it's
:41:01. > :41:06.It's not a sensible course of action for me to spend Welsh money
:41:07. > :41:14.So, no, the way we will do it is to put pressure on the UK
:41:15. > :41:17.Government to add our voices to voices in the UK Cabinet
:41:18. > :41:20.and to say to the UK Government, now is the time to do this.
:41:21. > :41:24.Lift the cap and give us the money so we can do that in Wales.
:41:25. > :41:26.Are there any circumstances in which you would be prepared
:41:27. > :41:29.to use Welsh government finances to ease the burden on public
:41:30. > :41:36.We try and use the money we have with the best possible way,
:41:37. > :41:39.that includes creating jobs in the Welsh public sector.
:41:40. > :41:43.What we can't do is put ourselves in a position that
:41:44. > :41:45.others need to be in, responsibilities that lie at the UK
:41:46. > :41:50.level must be answered by the UK Government.
:41:51. > :41:53.The Scottish Government claim that they are introducing a policy
:41:54. > :41:57.to scrap the cap in Scotland that will benefit public sector
:41:58. > :42:02.Why are they able to do that, and you're not?
:42:03. > :42:05.Well, the Barnett Formula has always treated Scotland far more
:42:06. > :42:12.They've always had more money at their disposal than we do.
:42:13. > :42:15.I have to say it's not entirely clear to me what the Scottish
:42:16. > :42:21.This week the BMA doctors' union backed Leanne Wood's call,
:42:22. > :42:24.but the Royal College of Nursing supports the Government's stance.
:42:25. > :42:27.It's not for devolved administrations to say
:42:28. > :42:34.It's the Treasury increased to public sector pay we require,
:42:35. > :42:38.Let's have it delivered to the public sector workforce.
:42:39. > :42:41.The UK Treasury told us the Welsh government is responsible for public
:42:42. > :42:46.sector pay covering most devolved services in Wales.
:42:47. > :42:53.And its own pay policy is designed to be fair.
:42:54. > :42:55.Now in a few weeks time students here will be
:42:56. > :42:58.getting their GCSE results, but this year the marks in English,
:42:59. > :43:02.Welsh and Maths are expected to be down on previous years.
:43:03. > :43:05.That's being blamed on schools entering more year 10
:43:06. > :43:09.pupils to sit exams, a year earlier than is intended.
:43:10. > :43:12.When I spoke to the Education Secretary during a school visit this
:43:13. > :43:21.week, I asked Kirsty Williams about that dropoff.
:43:22. > :43:23.I do think we have to acknowledge there
:43:24. > :43:26.are a combination of factors here that could see a drop
:43:27. > :43:30.First of all, we have are more rigorous GCSE exams
:43:31. > :43:33.We are seeing a change in the cohort of students
:43:34. > :43:36.who are taking science GCSEs, for instance, whereas before
:43:37. > :43:40.you would have seen significant numbers take BTEC science,
:43:41. > :43:43.we've recognised that qualification is not as rigorous
:43:44. > :43:45.as we would like it, so we are going to have more
:43:46. > :43:51.Most worrying of all for me, is a big change in the way
:43:52. > :43:54.in which students are being entered for exams.
:43:55. > :43:56.We are seeing significant numbers of students being entered
:43:57. > :43:59.earlier for qualifications, and I think those combination
:44:00. > :44:02.of factors could well see a drop in the overall points
:44:03. > :44:10.In terms of the new qualifications, there's a new English
:44:11. > :44:12.and a new Welsh GCSE, unique to Wales being sat
:44:13. > :44:17.If it's more rigorous, OK, fine, but surely,
:44:18. > :44:19.there should have been, built into the system,
:44:20. > :44:23.this comparative outcomes where qualifications in Wales
:44:24. > :44:26.were telling schools no child should be advantaged or disadvantaged
:44:27. > :44:31.Does that mean something has gone wrong then?
:44:32. > :44:33.No, I don't think anything has gone wrong.
:44:34. > :44:38.Obviously, qualifications Wales is an arms length
:44:39. > :44:40.from the Welsh government, and the Welsh government
:44:41. > :44:41.don't interfere in the examination process.
:44:42. > :44:47.But there is a well known and well understood phenomena that
:44:48. > :44:50.when you introduce new exams, new qualifications, you can
:44:51. > :44:57.reasonably expect a drop because teachers may not be quite
:44:58. > :45:01.so familiar, and, as teachers and the course becomes
:45:02. > :45:04.bedded in you'll see those grades rise again.
:45:05. > :45:06.But, more importantly than that, the exam is fundamentally different,
:45:07. > :45:09.how we examine English and are examining mathematics
:45:10. > :45:13.means that it's not fair to make direct comparisons.
:45:14. > :45:15.What's more, I welcome that, we need rigorous exams.
:45:16. > :45:21.What I'm concerned about is this phenomena that we've
:45:22. > :45:25.seen in significant numbers this summer...
:45:26. > :45:29.Will come back to that in a second, but is it fair for the pupils
:45:30. > :45:32.sitting on the exam this year that it's more rigorous, that they might
:45:33. > :45:35.have got a B last year, but they might get a C,
:45:36. > :45:40.or a D, this year because it is a more rigorous system?
:45:41. > :45:44.I want to be in the system, I want to be in charge
:45:45. > :45:47.of a system that demands rigger from that system.
:45:48. > :45:52.Well, it's fair that we are ensuring our children are leaving school
:45:53. > :45:55.with the skills and qualifications they will need to be
:45:56. > :45:58.Whether that's going on to further education,
:45:59. > :46:02.The individual marking is not a matter for me,
:46:03. > :46:06.it's a matter for qualifications Wales and the WJ EC.
:46:07. > :46:09.They will want to ensure that there is famous, of course,
:46:10. > :46:12.but we cannot move away from a system that demands rigger
:46:13. > :46:15.of our students, of our teachers, of me as education minister,
:46:16. > :46:29.Moving on them to that other element, more pupils
:46:30. > :46:34.They've been studying for a year, a two-year course, but for some
:46:35. > :46:37.reason schools want to put them in early.
:46:38. > :46:40.You could say, you're not allowed to have resits.
:46:41. > :46:42.Like they did in England four years ago.
:46:43. > :46:51.I am concerned to see the large numbers of early entry we have
:46:52. > :46:55.I've always said that if it's in the interests of an individual
:46:56. > :46:57.student to sit that exam early, then that should be
:46:58. > :47:02.What I'm concerned about is that we are seeing entire cohorts
:47:03. > :47:05.of students being entered into exams for qualifications that are designed
:47:06. > :47:09.That is putting pressure on students.
:47:10. > :47:11.Putting pressure on teachers, potentially compromising what that
:47:12. > :47:18.Qualifications Wales are doing a report into early entry,
:47:19. > :47:20.I expect to receive that in the autumn.
:47:21. > :47:23.I will look very carefully at the evidence before I make
:47:24. > :47:31.I could decide to stop early entry altogether.
:47:32. > :47:33.Better then that might have the side-effect
:47:34. > :47:36.of disadvantage in some children, but we could also change the way
:47:37. > :47:40.we hold schools accountable for their performance.
:47:41. > :47:43.We could say to schools it is the grades the child gets
:47:44. > :47:46.the first time they sit the exam that will count towards your
:47:47. > :47:50.There is a range of options I am prepared to look at once
:47:51. > :47:53.I receive the expert evidence from qualifications Wales.
:47:54. > :47:56.And that last option you mentioned is what they did in England,
:47:57. > :48:02.Your predecessor in the education Minister's office, Huw Lewis,
:48:03. > :48:05.said we are going to try and stop schools from gaming the system,
:48:06. > :48:10.You are talking about gaming the system in May this year.
:48:11. > :48:13.The problem is still there, it's just not being addressed, is it?
:48:14. > :48:17.But I need to do that on the basis of evidence.
:48:18. > :48:21.From experts who are there to independently advise the Welsh
:48:22. > :48:23.government and myself on our systems.
:48:24. > :48:26.I'm clear that where an entire cohorts of children are being
:48:27. > :48:31.entered, then that's not the policy of looking at the interests
:48:32. > :48:35.of individual children, and if necessary, on the advice,
:48:36. > :48:38.there is a range of options I am prepared to take this autumn.
:48:39. > :48:41.Do you think it is that schools are just trying to game the system
:48:42. > :48:46.Put a child in early, get a C grade, that counts towards their school
:48:47. > :48:49.performance targets, therefore, they move on.
:48:50. > :48:53.I am concerned that may be happening in some schools.
:48:54. > :48:56.Some schools may be entering children because they want to give
:48:57. > :48:59.them a test, they want to show them what an exam looks like.
:49:00. > :49:03.Those children will go on to sit the exam again.
:49:04. > :49:06.What I'm concerned about is that children who, perhaps,
:49:07. > :49:10.had the potential to get an A*, A or B at the end of a two-year
:49:11. > :49:13.course end up having to settle for a C because they do it early
:49:14. > :49:18.I want children to fulfil their potential in school.
:49:19. > :49:21.I want early entry to be for those children who will benefit from it.
:49:22. > :49:25.When I see such large numbers as being reported that
:49:26. > :49:32.I've asked for independent advice, that will come to me in the autumn.
:49:33. > :49:35.It's been a busy year in terms of education.
:49:36. > :49:38.It's also been a very busy year in terms of politics, generally,
:49:39. > :49:41.since you've been in post we've had, not that it's your fault,
:49:42. > :49:43.but we've had a referendum on leaving the European Union,
:49:44. > :49:48.Both of which, I guess, wouldn't have gone the way that
:49:49. > :49:51.you would have liked to have gone, how does it feel, for example,
:49:52. > :49:54.to be the last Liberal Democrat in national office in Wales,
:49:55. > :49:57.the most senior Lib Dem, I guess, in government
:49:58. > :50:04.Obviously, the referendum result is extremely disappointing.
:50:05. > :50:09.We are seeing the consequences of that decision already
:50:10. > :50:12.in the education system in Wales, particularly in higher education.
:50:13. > :50:14.The effect it's having on universities.
:50:15. > :50:17.I, and the Welsh government, and working very hard to ensure that
:50:18. > :50:20.all the promises that were made by those who campaigned for a leave
:50:21. > :50:26.People in Wales didn't vote to leave the European Union to be worse off.
:50:27. > :50:29.People in Wales didn't vote to leave the European Union
:50:30. > :50:38.As for being the last Lib Dem standing, again,
:50:39. > :50:42.We've seen internationally Liberal parties, over the years, potentially
:50:43. > :50:48.They've gone on to rebuild themselves and look at fresh
:50:49. > :50:51.approaches and new ways of doing things.
:50:52. > :50:54.I'm confident that the Welsh Liberal Democrats will go on to do that.
:50:55. > :50:58.But what I am enjoying is having the opportunity of being able
:50:59. > :51:01.to bring Liberal Democrat ideas and Liberal Democrat
:51:02. > :51:05.values into government and into our education
:51:06. > :51:12.Well, here with me now to talk about all this are Gareth Evans
:51:13. > :51:14.who's Director of Education Policy at University of Wales Trinity Saint
:51:15. > :51:16.David and the senior Conservative AM and Chair
:51:17. > :51:23.of the Public Accounts Committee, Nick Ramsay.
:51:24. > :51:30.Thank you for coming in this morning. In a previous life you were
:51:31. > :51:36.an education journalist. This has been around for a long time. This
:51:37. > :51:41.element of schools putting in their pupils a year early. It's been
:51:42. > :51:46.having an effect for a long time. But maybe not as dramatic an impact
:51:47. > :51:49.it seems to be having now. That's right. Pupils in Wales have
:51:50. > :51:55.been entered in year ten rather than your 11 for some time now. Numbers
:51:56. > :51:59.have grown significantly. We've got to ask why that has happened. It
:52:00. > :52:06.could be perfectly legitimate reasons, pupils who are excelling in
:52:07. > :52:12.certain subjects, or who want to ban gay qualification to look at
:52:13. > :52:17.studying something else in the second year of GCSE -- banked a
:52:18. > :52:22.qualification. The Cabinet Secretary has just mentioned they are judged
:52:23. > :52:30.so heavily on GCSE grades, what is known as the level two plus
:52:31. > :52:35.criteria, but five good a start to G grades, and English or Welsh, and
:52:36. > :52:40.maths. The difficulty you have is that schools are under such pressure
:52:41. > :52:43.to hit those targets they are potentially entering pupils slightly
:52:44. > :52:47.earlier than they should be, clearly not all pupils will be doing that.
:52:48. > :52:52.Some will be well within their rights to sit early. Others may be
:52:53. > :52:55.pushing through so schools can hit targets. We need to shift that
:52:56. > :52:59.accountability mechanism to reflect the needs of pupils.
:53:00. > :53:06.That point about schools and Kirsty Williams made it in the interview,
:53:07. > :53:11.maybe pupils who could get a A*, a or B are getting a C grade after one
:53:12. > :53:19.year and not being put back in to reset. Something has gone wrong way
:53:20. > :53:25.that is happening, is it? It's not acceptable if pupils are
:53:26. > :53:29.not being stretched to the maximum. If they are capable of an a grade
:53:30. > :53:33.and end up with a C grade, that's not right. Early engineers a
:53:34. > :53:38.valuable mechanism for some pupils. You would expect an element of that.
:53:39. > :53:42.Schools should be able to employ an early entry but the numbers being
:53:43. > :53:46.seen at the moment, that's not right. It's not right we are letting
:53:47. > :53:51.so many pupils down. The numbers are stark.
:53:52. > :53:56.English-language GCSE, two thirds of all year ten pupils have been
:53:57. > :54:01.entered early. In England, four years ago, I think, Michael Gove
:54:02. > :54:07.said, only your first set of results count towards your performance, your
:54:08. > :54:11.accountability targets. Firstly, should be Welsh government have
:54:12. > :54:15.followed suit back then, should they do it now?
:54:16. > :54:19.Yes, and yes. In a lot of what Kirsty Williams said, actually, I
:54:20. > :54:23.would tend to agree with. We are talking for years down the line from
:54:24. > :54:32.when England looked at this. Words are fine but let's get on with the
:54:33. > :54:36.job. I guess after that switch was flicked in England, there was a
:54:37. > :54:40.massive drop off in the number of schools entering pupils early. Has
:54:41. > :54:45.that had been required effect? Is that the way we should go in Wales?
:54:46. > :54:50.You've got to be careful if you wish to switch to wrap mechanism. You
:54:51. > :54:56.then set the bar so high it is a high state exam. If you only get one
:54:57. > :55:01.chance that an A* you might struggle to get better grades in the future.
:55:02. > :55:06.I think you have to be very careful if you go down the England route
:55:07. > :55:11.that you don't penalised schools and put more pressure on. We have to
:55:12. > :55:14.find a balance. What the Welsh government has moved to do with the
:55:15. > :55:17.right thing, look at accountability more generally and try to support
:55:18. > :55:22.schools to improve rather than bash them over the head.
:55:23. > :55:27.There is such high stakes, these exams, so much rides on this for
:55:28. > :55:37.pupils. Should parents be worried? Watcher parents do? I think it is
:55:38. > :55:40.heartening that the new regulatory body, qualifications Wales, has said
:55:41. > :55:47.they are confident that exams this summer will be compatible with those
:55:48. > :55:52.before. So a student who will get a A* this year will have done so last
:55:53. > :55:58.year and in previous years. That is comforting. But what we've got to do
:55:59. > :56:03.is look at how we can, perhaps, change the system. The way in which
:56:04. > :56:07.we monitor and regulate schools. We need to give pupils the best chance
:56:08. > :56:13.with no perverse incentives for schools to game the system. We
:56:14. > :56:18.really supported them to achieve the best they possibly can for pupils to
:56:19. > :56:23.get the grades they deserve. As was mentioned there, these are
:56:24. > :56:27.brand-new qualifications, GCSEs in English and Welsh being sat in
:56:28. > :56:32.Wales. They are unique to Wales. We've been told all along they are
:56:33. > :56:36.more rigorous more difficult. That may count for some of the drop-off
:56:37. > :56:42.in the expected results. Now, Kirsty Williams was happy that more
:56:43. > :56:47.rigorous exams are good, but is there a danger that they could be
:56:48. > :56:51.collateral damage. Some pupils not getting the result they might have
:56:52. > :56:56.got? We've been concerned from the start about the inherent dangers of
:56:57. > :57:00.a new system like this. I'm not saying that there is the potential
:57:01. > :57:03.they are to have a good system long term, but there are big question
:57:04. > :57:11.marks at the moment about not just early entry, but the system... You
:57:12. > :57:17.would welcome a more rigorous system in Wales? You've already seen acting
:57:18. > :57:23.England. They had bad drop-off because the system was more rigorous
:57:24. > :57:26.there. There definitely needs to be a more rigorous system. Employers
:57:27. > :57:31.within Wales and across the border in England need to know that the
:57:32. > :57:36.system is as rigorous and, at the same time, our pupils, if they are
:57:37. > :57:39.capable of getting a grades, then they need to be in a position where
:57:40. > :57:44.they are able to get them and the gaming of the system which we looked
:57:45. > :57:50.at in the Public Accounts Committee, and it is going on, that is really
:57:51. > :57:55.failing so many of our pupils who could be doing better. It certainly
:57:56. > :57:58.needs to be looked at pretty soon. This is a life chance for our young
:57:59. > :58:04.people we are talking about. There is an element here, perhaps,
:58:05. > :58:08.this is the first time we have had Wales only qualifications. This is
:58:09. > :58:17.the first time England have results by numbers, so you're A* will be a
:58:18. > :58:20.one, down to nine or ten. How important is it that the Welsh
:58:21. > :58:22.government get that message out to parents, I'll be doing it? I've been
:58:23. > :58:29.surprised that the amount of people that don't know what's going on in
:58:30. > :58:33.terms of qualifications. Do you mean parents or schools? All sorts.
:58:34. > :58:37.Teachers, schools, parents. If our teachers aren't abreast of the
:58:38. > :58:41.changes what chance do we have of getting pupils and teachers well
:58:42. > :58:46.informed. We've got to come as a sector, we've got to pull together
:58:47. > :58:52.some sort of communication strategy that allows us to get messages out
:58:53. > :58:54.there. We need to improve and show divergences qualifications,
:58:55. > :58:59.curriculum reform, initial teacher training even. There are so many
:59:00. > :59:03.differences now between the Welsh education system and the English
:59:04. > :59:07.education system, I think we've got to do a far better job as a system
:59:08. > :59:12.of coordinating and communicating. Do you think that is happening to
:59:13. > :59:16.the extent it should be? To reassure parents and schools, but actually
:59:17. > :59:20.the gold standard is still here in Wales? No, it's not happening. That
:59:21. > :59:25.is why we are having this discussion now. That's why the Public Accounts
:59:26. > :59:30.Committee was concerned. These are not simple issues to deal with. Many
:59:31. > :59:35.are media man long-term. But these are going to affect pupils this
:59:36. > :59:39.year, next year and the year after. We need to prove that the system is
:59:40. > :59:42.rigorous, as has been said. This isn't a question of the Welsh
:59:43. > :59:47.government is telling schools, telling NEA is what to do. The Welsh
:59:48. > :59:49.government needs a much better dialogue with schools, with the
:59:50. > :59:54.educational institutions in Wales and come to a conclusion that will
:59:55. > :59:56.ultimately give our pupils the best life chances. Thank you very much
:59:57. > :59:58.for coming in this morning. Join us next week for our last
:59:59. > :00:02.programme of the series. Meantime we're on Twitter,
:00:03. > :00:03.we're @walespolitics Diolch am wylio, thanks for
:00:04. > :00:11.watching, time to go back to Andrew. Now just under a year ago,
:00:12. > :00:24.Theresa May was making her way back from Buckingham Palace having been
:00:25. > :00:26.asked by the Queen To say it's been a tumultuous twelve
:00:27. > :00:30.months would be an understatement - here's a reminder of
:00:31. > :00:37.the highs and lows. I have just been to Buckingham
:00:38. > :00:40.Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form
:00:41. > :00:49.a new Government and I accepted. If you're just managing,
:00:50. > :00:51.I want to address you directly. I know you're working
:00:52. > :00:53.around-the-clock, I know you're doing your best,
:00:54. > :00:55.and I know that sometimes When future generations
:00:56. > :01:03.look back at this time, they will judge us not only
:01:04. > :01:06.by the decision that we made, but by I have just chaired a meeting
:01:07. > :01:21.of the Cabinet, where we agreed that the Government should call
:01:22. > :01:25.a general election to The Conservative Party
:01:26. > :01:43.has won the most seats and probably the most votes,
:01:44. > :01:49.then it will be incumbent on us to ensure we have that period
:01:50. > :02:07.of stability and that is exactly So 12 months in the life of Theresa
:02:08. > :02:12.May, and the rest of us too. I am exhausted. I don't know what she
:02:13. > :02:16.feels like! How weak or strong is her position and this constant
:02:17. > :02:20.reporting, more on the Sunday paper today about groups of Tory MPs
:02:21. > :02:24.manoeuvring to bring her down in the autumn, before the autumn after the
:02:25. > :02:28.autumn, name a month between now and the end of the year. Is that, that
:02:29. > :02:32.has to be corrosive as well. Absolutely. Every week there will be
:02:33. > :02:36.another story. The reality is the stronger Jeremy Corbyn and the
:02:37. > :02:40.Labour Party look the stronger her position is because it is what are
:02:41. > :02:44.the alternative, Theresa May or... It is depending on the polls where
:02:45. > :02:48.it is Theresa May herself who is helping to cause that boost for
:02:49. > :02:54.Jeremy Corbyn, if she is the toxic part of the Tory party brand, and if
:02:55. > :02:58.they get rid of her the Tories would spring back up and the Labour Party
:02:59. > :03:03.would go down or is it best for her to soak it, literally draw out the
:03:04. > :03:08.toxins and then, I don't know, two money, six months a year, she stands
:03:09. > :03:13.down and next leader takes the over, next generation or David Davis and
:03:14. > :03:18.they start again, start afresh, and she takes all the badness, the
:03:19. > :03:22.toxins with her this is thing, there must be a hell of a lot of detailed
:03:23. > :03:28.polls right now find that out. I don't know the answer. Can she
:03:29. > :03:32.relaunch herself? No, she will make a big speech on Tuesday, ex tracts
:03:33. > :03:41.are being briefed into tomorrow's papers, I have seen them. . What is
:03:42. > :03:46.the subject matter? Me. Not me, her. There has been enough movement from
:03:47. > :03:50.BBC... It is going to be her, it will be the relaunch. I have a
:03:51. > :03:54.purpose, still here and allow me to stay, but the problem is, Julia is
:03:55. > :03:59.right, there is a feeling among Tory MPs it would be ideal for her to
:04:00. > :04:04.last at least two years, suck in the bad bit, and to have a referendum or
:04:05. > :04:09.not, and the miscalculations and bring in a new person, untarnished.
:04:10. > :04:14.The problem over that is events dear boy as someone once said. Brexit may
:04:15. > :04:19.go well, it may not. Talks may produce something or she may get
:04:20. > :04:22.stuck down a hole. She is the sticking plaster over the two side
:04:23. > :04:26.of the Tory party. She is there, because they want her to be there
:04:27. > :04:31.and that Palacester is stilled holding, if that seismic divide goes
:04:32. > :04:38.any further, the plaster breaks she will go down the hole with it. David
:04:39. > :04:42.Davis said she doesn't want a leadership election, the papers are
:04:43. > :04:48.full of briefings from what are claimed to be from his people saying
:04:49. > :04:52.she faces abject misery, that it is time she will have to go sooner
:04:53. > :04:58.rather than later, they clearly haven't got the memo from DD as he
:04:59. > :05:02.is called. Publicly they have, to declare loyalty until the moment
:05:03. > :05:10.when they feel the time has come to be disloyal. The problem she has got
:05:11. > :05:15.is that context determines 95% of how a leader is perceived. She can
:05:16. > :05:22.make a brilliant speech this week about how she plans to be bold but
:05:23. > :05:29.the context is that lost majority in the election, a hung parliament with
:05:30. > :05:33.Brexit looming. It makes it hard to be bold, hung Parliaments are not
:05:34. > :05:39.bold. You will have to manoeuvre all the time and it be exhausting and
:05:40. > :05:42.transparent in the scheming, a like with the arrangement with the DUP,
:05:43. > :05:46.some of the vote it is a have happened and it will be utterly
:05:47. > :05:50.draining, now Julia is is right. The key question for the Tories will be
:05:51. > :05:54.if they get someone else in, does that transform their prospects?
:05:55. > :06:01.While that is not clear, I agree she will probably cling on, but there
:06:02. > :06:05.will be no glorious summer for her again, the pre-election context was
:06:06. > :06:10.fantastic for her, it is really dark now, and tough. The key thing is
:06:11. > :06:15.what you said, who would have thunk it. You have said the Tories are
:06:16. > :06:21.frightened to call to provoke us another election because they fear,
:06:22. > :06:26.they think Jeremy Corbyn will win. Who would have thought we would get
:06:27. > :06:31.into that position? In the same argument who would have thought
:06:32. > :06:34.Theresa May been so popular. Who would have thought Jeremy Corbyn
:06:35. > :06:38.would get where he is now? That shows there is still hope for not
:06:39. > :06:43.maybe, maybe not Theresa May, I think that she has holed below the
:06:44. > :06:46.water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa May's
:06:47. > :06:51.defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she has
:06:52. > :06:55.been exposed, during the election campaign for just not having enough
:06:56. > :07:00.of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of
:07:01. > :07:03.steel, a lesser man or holed below the water line, what goes up can
:07:04. > :07:06.also come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she will
:07:07. > :07:08.last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the election
:07:09. > :07:11.campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be
:07:12. > :07:14.fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman holed
:07:15. > :07:17.below the water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa
:07:18. > :07:19.May's defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she
:07:20. > :07:21.has been exposed, during the election campaign for just not
:07:22. > :07:25.having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have
:07:26. > :07:28.a backbone of steel, a lesser man or woman who have gone, "I'm off now."
:07:29. > :07:31.To take the flak she is get, she is steely as they come. It is almost a
:07:32. > :07:33.form of penance she is doing, having brought her party to this less than
:07:34. > :07:36.glorious position, she's having to try and kind of restore things a
:07:37. > :07:39.bit, knowing in her heart of hearts and perhaps not as deep at that,
:07:40. > :07:41.that she will not be the beneficiary. Absolutely not. That is
:07:42. > :07:44.what she said to the 1922 Committee that Monday after the general
:07:45. > :07:47.election, I got us into this mess, I am going to get us out of it. Talks
:07:48. > :07:49.to MPs this week, it is interesting, there is pretty hard feeling
:07:50. > :07:53.settling that the new person should come from the 2010 intake, skip a
:07:54. > :08:01.generation. The Boris, the Teresa, the Hammonds. Bye Amber Rudd? She
:08:02. > :08:07.has a tiny minority -- majority. There was one minister in your foyer
:08:08. > :08:11.an hour ago. Did we have a foyer? I think about 30 of them, all of them
:08:12. > :08:15.believe it or not fancy their chance, and for any of those to
:08:16. > :08:18.expose themselves and to lay out their agenda they will need
:08:19. > :08:24.two-years to make these sort of Sport Reliefs Let us turn to Labour.
:08:25. > :08:26.Well, earlier we talked to Caroline Flint about the threat
:08:27. > :08:31.Here's what Shadow Minister and Corbyn ally, Chris Williamson,
:08:32. > :08:33.MPs need to reflect the political programme that is overwhelmingly
:08:34. > :08:35.supported by Labour members and Labour supporters,
:08:36. > :08:37.and if people aren't prepared to do that,
:08:38. > :08:40.then it will be up to members in their local constituencies
:08:41. > :08:57.How big a change is Labour going to undergo? To what extent will Labour
:08:58. > :09:03.now be recast in the mould of Mr Corbyn and his wing of the party?
:09:04. > :09:07.Well in policy terms it already has been largely recast into the Corbyn
:09:08. > :09:11.McDonnell view, although with lots of examples of them being pretty
:09:12. > :09:17.expedient, Trident being an example. Where they went into the election
:09:18. > :09:20.backing retention, even though personally they are totally
:09:21. > :09:26.committed to nuclear disarmament. He might be able to move to that
:09:27. > :09:30.position? They might but that example of expend yen sip leads me
:09:31. > :09:35.to this. . I suspect Corbyn and McDonnell will be thinking we are
:09:36. > :09:43.close to power do we really want 18 months of Civil War, which is what
:09:44. > :09:48.deelection battles would become, and terrible publicity, and an imflowing
:09:49. > :09:53.a party on the verge possibly of an election win. -- implosion. My guess
:09:54. > :09:59.is they won't and they will go out of their way to try and stop it.
:10:00. > :10:01.John McDonnell said many times divide a party lose elections, I
:10:02. > :10:05.don't think they will want this. There are power battles in party, we
:10:06. > :10:09.have been talking about it in the Tory party, and there will be
:10:10. > :10:12.moments of heightened tension between the Labour MPs and their
:10:13. > :10:19.memberships but I don't think that this is going to happen. If Steve is
:10:20. > :10:25.right we should be looking for signs of them looking for signs of them
:10:26. > :10:29.hosing things down. Although, I don't think they need to do this.
:10:30. > :10:34.The moderate wing of the party, they are not standing up to Jeremy Corbyn
:10:35. > :10:38.any more, they are trying to get a few Select Committee Chairmanships
:10:39. > :10:43.and survive and hope something happens. The extraordinary thing is,
:10:44. > :10:50.given that no-one expected Jeremy Corbyn, no-one tried to deselect him
:10:51. > :10:56.and no-one accused him of disloyalty. We are in Soviet style
:10:57. > :11:01.show trial, you know, repent territory. We haven't had a show
:11:02. > :11:06.trial yet. Matter of time. Apart from Brexit. The Labour Party are
:11:07. > :11:11.united until it comes to votes on the House of Commons on what to do
:11:12. > :11:16.about Europe. So, Brexit goes well, that 49 will wither away a bit and
:11:17. > :11:25.start getting... If Brexit goes badly. Vince Cable saying we need a
:11:26. > :11:30.mud referendum, huge temptation then among Labour MPs to recalibrate and
:11:31. > :11:36.a oar gue for staying in and that would split the partyty down the
:11:37. > :11:40.middle. You heard Owen Paterson say 85% of people voted for parties that
:11:41. > :11:46.wanted Brexit, meaning Labour and Conservative. It is true that Jeremy
:11:47. > :11:49.Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are more Eurosceptic than people realise.
:11:50. > :11:55.They want another election quickly, because they don't know how, this
:11:56. > :11:58.maybe as good as it gets. None of us know, so get an election quick
:11:59. > :12:04.because we think we might win it. That means that they could well play
:12:05. > :12:10.game, why would they just bolster the store Tories if a big defeat on
:12:11. > :12:15.Brexit could provoke an election. I am guessing they will play games, if
:12:16. > :12:19.there is chance of undermining the Government perhaps fatally to get
:12:20. > :12:22.this early election which would be massively in their interest, theyry
:12:23. > :12:28.ahead in the poll, I think that will do it. They have displayed
:12:29. > :12:33.expediency on Europe in the past, possibly arguing for it why having
:12:34. > :12:37.doubts about it in the referendum, for Remain, sorely. So yes, I think
:12:38. > :12:41.there will be, as I said earlier, in this Parliament there will be going
:12:42. > :12:44.to be moments where it looks as if the Government could be defeat and I
:12:45. > :12:51.think they will move towards defeating the Government. Any
:12:52. > :12:56.remainor should be more worried about the economics of a Corbyn left
:12:57. > :12:58.On that point we better leave it there.
:12:59. > :13:04.I'll be back here on BBC One at the same time next week
:13:05. > :13:08.And Jo Co's back tomorrow with the Daily Politics on BBC Two
:13:09. > :13:11.at the earlier time of 11am - that's because of Wimbledon.
:13:12. > :14:00.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:01. > :14:03.This is what it takes to get her to come home, you know?