:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling
:00:44. > :00:46.onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international
:00:47. > :00:48.trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future
:00:49. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out
:00:57. > :00:59.Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own
:01:00. > :01:01.divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear
:01:02. > :01:05.And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more
:01:06. > :01:07.hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,
:01:08. > :01:15.If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti
:01:16. > :01:24.the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.
:01:25. > :01:28.Carwyn Jones on what he calls the Brexit power grab.
:01:29. > :01:30.Are we really heading for a constitutional crisis?
:01:31. > :01:32.And who's been serving political aces?
:01:33. > :01:46.Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it
:01:47. > :01:49.by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed
:01:50. > :01:52.And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've
:01:53. > :01:57.won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.
:01:58. > :02:07.It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:08. > :02:09.First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting
:02:10. > :02:12.of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,
:02:13. > :02:14.most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.
:02:15. > :02:18.Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may
:02:19. > :02:22.not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times
:02:23. > :02:26.says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers
:02:27. > :02:29.as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.
:02:30. > :02:31.Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,
:02:32. > :02:34.and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source
:02:35. > :02:40.of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.
:02:41. > :02:43.If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people
:02:44. > :02:46.who are not happy with the agenda that I have,
:02:47. > :02:55.tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit
:02:56. > :02:59.which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting
:03:00. > :03:02.our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living
:03:03. > :03:15.So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being
:03:16. > :03:19.undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's
:03:20. > :03:26.quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely
:03:27. > :03:33.true. That's the least controversial part of it! The briefing is his
:03:34. > :03:35.position on Brexit and also frustration on his position over
:03:36. > :03:41.public sector pay then it is over any kind of leadership manoeuvrings.
:03:42. > :03:47.We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that he was doubling down on the issue of
:03:48. > :03:51.public sector pay rises. He didn't categorically deny using the words
:03:52. > :03:57.of overpaid, in fact he reiterated the fact he sees them as whether
:03:58. > :04:00.they are overpaid or not so I believe he did use that phrase but
:04:01. > :04:06.clearly he's got the tone wrong and I don't think he's done himself any
:04:07. > :04:13.favours. He's a pretty wealthy man himself, multimillionaire. He must
:04:14. > :04:19.have some kind of political deafness if he thinks it's OK for someone in
:04:20. > :04:24.his position to say, in a number of cases, lowly paid public sector
:04:25. > :04:28.workers are overpaid? I think he is politically deaf, and not
:04:29. > :04:40.emotionally intelligent. He has a great head for figures but very poor
:04:41. > :04:53.at expressing himself. It was a crass remark over women train
:04:54. > :04:58.drivers. He may be in the right place on some arguments, he's just
:04:59. > :05:02.extremely poor at expressing and that's what gives his opponents the
:05:03. > :05:08.chance to rip his head off. He should have worked out by now that
:05:09. > :05:11.it is clear whatever... Because of the dim munition of Mrs May's
:05:12. > :05:17.authority that whatever you see in the Cabinet now is likely to become
:05:18. > :05:21.public in some shape or form. I think this is the profound lesson of
:05:22. > :05:27.the story, that Cabinet discussion is almost impossible now, and
:05:28. > :05:31.Hammond will go away this summer thinking I can't engage in a proper
:05:32. > :05:35.debate in Cabinet because they will leak it. It sounds as if they were
:05:36. > :05:38.having quite a grown-up conversation about public sector pay with a
:05:39. > :05:42.spending department ministers putting the case for breaking the
:05:43. > :05:46.cup and Hammond saying from the Treasury perspective this is what's
:05:47. > :05:52.happening. Which is what normally happens in Cabinet. He would hope
:05:53. > :05:56.so, not any more. He won't be able to speak his mind in Cabinet because
:05:57. > :06:00.he knows it will be leaked and that is another sign of fragility of this
:06:01. > :06:05.Government, when you cannot have a grown-up discussion about public
:06:06. > :06:08.sector pay even in Cabinet, and that means Cabinet discussion which is
:06:09. > :06:14.urgently needed on Brexit and the rest of it cannot happen in an open
:06:15. > :06:18.way because leaking is happening. Mrs May is not exactly top of the
:06:19. > :06:24.Pops with her own party at the moment but doesn't help her in the
:06:25. > :06:28.fact that her Chancellor is even less top of the Pops? The key thing
:06:29. > :06:33.is that backbenchers don't want a leadership contest at the moment.
:06:34. > :06:37.There are a number of Cabinet ministers or more senior figures who
:06:38. > :06:41.have been around longer who may feel this is their last chance of the
:06:42. > :06:46.leadership and they are urgently wanting it happen now. Backbenchers
:06:47. > :06:53.don't want it, I don't think it will happen. Will it happen? I don't
:06:54. > :07:00.think it will. There are egos clashing in the Cabinet and also
:07:01. > :07:03.many who just want things to stay the way they are, so they will. We
:07:04. > :07:04.will talk more about this leadership matter later in the programme, but
:07:05. > :07:06.let's move on. This week the government passed
:07:07. > :07:08.another Brexit milestone when in introduced the Repeal Bill
:07:09. > :07:10.to the Commons. It will incorporate all EU law
:07:11. > :07:12.into the UK's domestic And although a vote on the Bill
:07:13. > :07:16.isn't due until the autumn, the government still has plenty
:07:17. > :07:18.on its plate when it Brexit secretary David Davis
:07:19. > :07:21.and the EU's negotiator Michel Barnier will sit down
:07:22. > :07:23.for another helping of Brexit negotiations in Brussels
:07:24. > :07:25.this week. Progress now needs to be made
:07:26. > :07:29.on some big questions. They include: the rights of EU
:07:30. > :07:31.citizens living here, How to maintain an open border
:07:32. > :07:38.between Northern Ireland And the size of the financial
:07:39. > :07:43.settlement or so-called divorce bill Previous estimates have included a
:07:44. > :07:50.figure of The British government has put no
:07:51. > :07:56.figure on it, simply saying it This week, Foreign Secretary
:07:57. > :08:02.Boris Johnson said the EU could "go whistle" if it was
:08:03. > :08:04.expecting an extortionate fee Brussels wants this set
:08:05. > :08:17.of negotiations focusing on the principles of separation
:08:18. > :08:20.to be done by the end of the year. They can then turn to the main
:08:21. > :08:23.event, the future trading relationship between the UK
:08:24. > :08:25.and the EU. While the UK remains a member
:08:26. > :08:28.of the EU customs union, it cannot But it can hold advanced discussions
:08:29. > :08:32.with other countries. This week, Australian Prime Minister
:08:33. > :08:34.Malcolm Turnbull said his country was very keen for a deal
:08:35. > :08:39.as quickly as possible. And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump
:08:40. > :08:43.said he wanted to sign a very powerful UK-US trade
:08:44. > :08:48.deal very quickly. But as trade deals normally
:08:49. > :08:54.take years to negotiate, So there will be plenty
:08:55. > :08:59.for both sides to digest, as negotiations continue
:09:00. > :09:07.over the summer. I'm joined
:09:08. > :09:17.by the International Trade Your brief is to agree new free
:09:18. > :09:23.trade deals but you cannot sign any until Brexit is done, can you even
:09:24. > :09:28.begin proper negotiations this side of Brexit or is that illegal too? We
:09:29. > :09:35.cannot negotiate and conclude a trade agreement but we can scope
:09:36. > :09:39.them out. We can get our preparatory work done. We have got ten working
:09:40. > :09:44.groups established across the world with countries from Korea to the
:09:45. > :09:48.United States to Australia. I know scoping the out is fine, you can
:09:49. > :09:54.talk about trade but you cannot begin formal trade negotiations
:09:55. > :09:57.until after Brexit. No, but we have trade working agreements. Free trade
:09:58. > :10:04.agreements are not the only thing that are in the mix as it were, they
:10:05. > :10:07.are what people think about but we also have mutual recognition
:10:08. > :10:13.agreements where we can reduce some of the barriers to trade, the
:10:14. > :10:17.technical barriers, in that process. We have a number of other things
:10:18. > :10:22.going on. We have got to get our trading schedules in Switzerland and
:10:23. > :10:26.Geneva and the World Trade Organisation organised. We then have
:10:27. > :10:30.40 EU free trade agreements and we have to get them ready because if we
:10:31. > :10:35.were not to negotiate those and be ready on the first day of Brexit,
:10:36. > :10:39.there would be huge market disruption. Although you can clearly
:10:40. > :10:45.do a lot of technical work and you can talk till the cows come home,
:10:46. > :10:52.there will be no free trade deals on the shelf ready to sign come March
:10:53. > :11:00.2019 when we are leaving the EU, that's correct isn't it? Technically
:11:01. > :11:06.there will be new ones... There will be no free trade deals ready to say
:11:07. > :11:09.right, we are out, here is a deal I have baked earlier. Not right away
:11:10. > :11:13.because we are not permitted to do that as part of our membership of
:11:14. > :11:18.the European Union and one of the things I want to get is greater
:11:19. > :11:21.freedom to be able to negotiate on behalf of the UK. That's not
:11:22. > :11:28.possible when you are inside the customs union. There's much talk of
:11:29. > :11:31.a transition after 2019. You told Bloomberg you didn't mind a few
:11:32. > :11:38.months, the Chancellor this morning said it would be a couple of years.
:11:39. > :11:41.What is it? The key thing is why would you have a transitional
:11:42. > :11:46.arrangements, how long would it be and what would the conditions be.
:11:47. > :11:51.For me first we have to leave the European Union in March 2019 so
:11:52. > :11:59.there can be no case of extending EU membership. At that point as a third
:12:00. > :12:01.country we can have a transition agreement which keeps as little
:12:02. > :12:06.disruption as possible but it has to have an end date. You said a few
:12:07. > :12:11.months, the Chancellor said a few years, why the difference? As the
:12:12. > :12:15.Chancellor said, it is more a technical argument, because for
:12:16. > :12:19.example how do we get new border equipment in place, how do we get
:12:20. > :12:24.the arrangements for immigration put in place, but for me, you know, I've
:12:25. > :12:30.waited a long time and campaigned long time to leave the European
:12:31. > :12:34.Union. As long as we leave in March 2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a
:12:35. > :12:37.time-limited transitional period to make it work for business. The
:12:38. > :12:43.Chancellor doesn't deny the transition could take up four years.
:12:44. > :12:49.The Brexit Secretary David Davis says it could be a maximum of three
:12:50. > :12:52.years, you are talking months. Shouldn't you sort this out around
:12:53. > :13:00.the Cabinet table instead of all three of you sending mixed messages?
:13:01. > :13:04.We are dependent on for example what HMRC Tal us, how investment is
:13:05. > :13:08.going. It's also a question of negotiating with our European
:13:09. > :13:14.partners. We know what's involved, why are you sending out these mixed
:13:15. > :13:18.messages? I don't have a problem with the transition period as long
:13:19. > :13:23.as it is time-limited. It is not just the time, it is the conditions.
:13:24. > :13:28.I want in the transitional period to be able to negotiate agreements at
:13:29. > :13:32.that point. We cannot have a putting off over the freedom to negotiate
:13:33. > :13:39.trade agreements. At the moment is it clear you would be able to sign
:13:40. > :13:47.any free trade deals during a transition period? No, that's to be
:13:48. > :13:53.negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr Davies is right, up to three or four
:13:54. > :13:58.years, it could be 2021 before you get to sign a free trade deal. We
:13:59. > :14:03.don't now how long any would take to negotiate. They don't happen
:14:04. > :14:08.overnight. Would you even be able to negotiate during a transition
:14:09. > :14:13.period? I would hope so, that is one of the conditions we might set. It
:14:14. > :14:15.is certainly something I would want to see because otherwise it makes it
:14:16. > :14:20.much more difficult to take advantage of the opportunities that
:14:21. > :14:24.Brexit itself would produce. Your ink will run dry before you get to
:14:25. > :14:31.sign one of these agreements. We have a huge amount to do and it's
:14:32. > :14:35.not just at the free trade agreement level. We have for example what we
:14:36. > :14:40.get at the World Trade Organisation because the real game for the UK is
:14:41. > :14:48.to get a global liberalisation in the services sector -- the real
:14:49. > :14:53.gain. And I want to come onto that in a minute but before do, are you
:14:54. > :14:58.group of the Cabinet ministers that seems to regularly be briefing
:14:59. > :15:04.against Philip Hammond? No, I deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I
:15:05. > :15:11.think my colleagues should be quiet, stick to their duties, and I expect
:15:12. > :15:17.discipline to be effective. The only people smiling that this will be
:15:18. > :15:24.people in Berlin and Paris. Why are people doing it? The need to have
:15:25. > :15:30.less prosecco. They don't trust Philip Hammond, do they? I don't
:15:31. > :15:33.think that is true. I read in the press we have very different views,
:15:34. > :15:38.in fact our views are very similar on things like transition. I don't
:15:39. > :15:44.know where it is coming from but I think it should stop.
:15:45. > :15:50.But it is happening? It is happening and I think it undermines the
:15:51. > :15:55.position of the government. We do not need an interim leader or an
:15:56. > :16:01.alternative leader. We have a very good competent leader in Theresa
:16:02. > :16:05.May. But he thinks it is being done by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know
:16:06. > :16:11.who is doing it and they should stop. Let's come back to the tariff
:16:12. > :16:16.free trade. There is much talk about that. The Chancellor says much of
:16:17. > :16:20.our trade with the world is in services and free trade deals won't
:16:21. > :16:25.make any particular difference. Do you agree with him? They can make a
:16:26. > :16:30.difference. It has been estimated with the OECD that free trade deals
:16:31. > :16:37.with the United States could add ?42 billion to our bilateral trade by
:16:38. > :16:41.2030. There is a game to be made. In an economy like the UK which is 80%
:16:42. > :16:47.services, what we would benefit from is a range of global liberalisation.
:16:48. > :16:50.One example is data. We have an economy where we talk about freedom
:16:51. > :16:54.of movement of goods and services, but you also have to have the
:16:55. > :17:00.freedom of movement of data. One thing I would like the UK to lead on
:17:01. > :17:06.is to look to a global agreement on that. But the talks have come to an
:17:07. > :17:13.end. There is no great global movement. That is not true. We have
:17:14. > :17:16.just had a multilateral agreement, the trade facilitation was signed
:17:17. > :17:21.this year which seeks to diminish friction at customs around the world
:17:22. > :17:25.and will add 70 billion to the economy. But it leaves plenty of
:17:26. > :17:28.nontariff barriers in place. The moment you start to talk about these
:17:29. > :17:33.complicated rules and regulations that hinder services, it does not
:17:34. > :17:39.make free trade deals impossible, it makes them much more on placated and
:17:40. > :17:46.prolonged to do. Correct? You need to look at what is happening in the
:17:47. > :17:51.global economy. According to the OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20
:17:52. > :17:55.countries were operating about 300 nontariff barriers. By the end of
:17:56. > :18:00.2015, they were operating nearly three times that number. The silting
:18:01. > :18:05.up of growth and global trade is being done by the global economy. We
:18:06. > :18:09.need to be looking at how we can remove some of those barriers,
:18:10. > :18:13.because otherwise our prosperity becomes limited. Is it still your
:18:14. > :18:20.view that no deal would be better than a bad deal? Anyone who goes
:18:21. > :18:24.into that negotiation without that is foolish. We will not accept any
:18:25. > :18:29.deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the
:18:30. > :18:33.referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal
:18:34. > :18:39.rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no
:18:40. > :18:44.deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we
:18:45. > :18:49.have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I
:18:50. > :18:54.think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very
:18:55. > :18:57.important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.
:18:58. > :19:02.Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away
:19:03. > :19:06.rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did
:19:07. > :19:22.not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree
:19:23. > :19:27.with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do
:19:28. > :19:30.not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to
:19:31. > :19:34.accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with
:19:35. > :19:38.have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and
:19:39. > :19:42.say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go
:19:43. > :19:47.into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government
:19:48. > :19:54.is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday
:19:55. > :19:57.newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this
:19:58. > :20:06.morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --
:20:07. > :20:11.market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some
:20:12. > :20:17.other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a
:20:18. > :20:20.contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all
:20:21. > :20:25.working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to
:20:26. > :20:30.the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say
:20:31. > :20:35.there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across
:20:36. > :20:40.Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are
:20:41. > :20:45.contingency plans and my department and other departments have
:20:46. > :20:50.specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not
:20:51. > :20:55.correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I
:20:56. > :20:59.understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He
:21:00. > :21:05.is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I
:21:06. > :21:11.would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would
:21:12. > :21:20.you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you
:21:21. > :21:25.mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union
:21:26. > :21:30.at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what
:21:31. > :21:35.we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is
:21:36. > :21:41.if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put
:21:42. > :21:47.politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If
:21:48. > :21:50.they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those
:21:51. > :21:56.international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think
:21:57. > :21:59.you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you
:22:00. > :22:05.have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I
:22:06. > :22:08.would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are
:22:09. > :22:14.coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.
:22:15. > :22:19.Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side
:22:20. > :22:25.for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.
:22:26. > :22:29.Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we
:22:30. > :22:30.should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of
:22:31. > :22:54.our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a
:22:55. > :22:57.negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell
:22:58. > :23:00.you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another
:23:01. > :23:03.question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other
:23:04. > :23:05.countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada
:23:06. > :23:08.are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing
:23:09. > :23:11.basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after
:23:12. > :23:15.Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something
:23:16. > :23:21.so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to
:23:22. > :23:27.trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet
:23:28. > :23:31.been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on
:23:32. > :23:37.trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on
:23:38. > :23:43.the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have
:23:44. > :23:48.working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.
:23:49. > :23:53.Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry
:23:54. > :23:58.out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of
:23:59. > :24:03.Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we
:24:04. > :24:09.will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral
:24:10. > :24:16.agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in
:24:17. > :24:21.Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck
:24:22. > :24:25.leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on
:24:26. > :24:32.Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that
:24:33. > :24:39.about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's
:24:40. > :24:42.negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,
:24:43. > :24:46.they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.
:24:47. > :24:50.They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we
:24:51. > :24:53.have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British
:24:54. > :24:57.people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going
:24:58. > :25:02.to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else
:25:03. > :25:06.says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to
:25:07. > :25:09.get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on
:25:10. > :25:14.with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they
:25:15. > :25:17.do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the
:25:18. > :25:22.reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.
:25:23. > :25:24.Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's
:25:25. > :25:26.chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.
:25:27. > :25:28.We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's
:25:29. > :25:31.But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship
:25:32. > :25:34.with the single market and the customs union -
:25:35. > :25:37.Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.
:25:38. > :25:39.I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits
:25:40. > :25:42.of the customs union, and that's one of the issues
:25:43. > :25:45.Does it mean staying inside or leaving?
:25:46. > :25:48.Keep all the options open, keep all the options...
:25:49. > :25:50.Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?
:25:51. > :25:53.We are concentrating on the objectives rather
:25:54. > :25:55.than the structures and that seems to have a resonance
:25:56. > :25:59.I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary
:26:00. > :26:03.Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.
:26:04. > :26:10.Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election
:26:11. > :26:14.it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some
:26:15. > :26:18.answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of
:26:19. > :26:22.Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it
:26:23. > :26:27.want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.
:26:28. > :26:31.We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The
:26:32. > :26:32.end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are
:26:33. > :26:54.standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on
:26:55. > :26:56.that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of
:26:57. > :26:59.the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is
:27:00. > :27:01.open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum
:27:02. > :27:04.and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our
:27:05. > :27:06.laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single
:27:07. > :27:09.market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be
:27:10. > :27:12.seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting
:27:13. > :27:17.access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I
:27:18. > :27:21.am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would
:27:22. > :27:25.negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the
:27:26. > :27:30.consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow
:27:31. > :27:34.from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits
:27:35. > :27:38.we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will
:27:39. > :27:43.be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one
:27:44. > :27:48.of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people
:27:49. > :27:51.were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we
:27:52. > :27:57.could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the
:27:58. > :28:02.other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We
:28:03. > :28:08.have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.
:28:09. > :28:13.Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,
:28:14. > :28:20.the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the
:28:21. > :28:23.customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties
:28:24. > :28:27.in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?
:28:28. > :28:35.We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am
:28:36. > :28:42.asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice
:28:43. > :28:48.not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in
:28:49. > :28:53.the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be
:28:54. > :28:59.able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that
:29:00. > :29:04.in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point
:29:05. > :29:08.for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs
:29:09. > :29:13.union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part
:29:14. > :29:18.of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face
:29:19. > :29:21.without coming out of the customs union without any transitional
:29:22. > :29:25.arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you
:29:26. > :29:29.do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single
:29:30. > :29:39.market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single
:29:40. > :29:44.union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade
:29:45. > :29:51.deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the
:29:52. > :29:56.negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have
:29:57. > :29:59.negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside
:30:00. > :30:03.agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended
:30:04. > :30:08.settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we
:30:09. > :30:13.have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,
:30:14. > :30:17.says people would interpret remaining in the single market is
:30:18. > :30:21.not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep
:30:22. > :30:25.open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is
:30:26. > :30:28.automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single
:30:29. > :30:32.market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we
:30:33. > :30:36.would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make
:30:37. > :30:40.as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying
:30:41. > :30:45.it is completely off the table because stranger things have
:30:46. > :30:49.happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more
:30:50. > :30:52.on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we
:30:53. > :30:58.negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.
:30:59. > :31:05.But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the
:31:06. > :31:10.result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU
:31:11. > :31:14.you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's
:31:15. > :31:18.extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because
:31:19. > :31:23.stranger things have happened and this process so far has been
:31:24. > :31:27.extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating
:31:28. > :31:35.position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating
:31:36. > :31:38.position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to
:31:39. > :31:43.retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union
:31:44. > :31:48.and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot
:31:49. > :31:57.point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means
:31:58. > :32:01.Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and
:32:02. > :32:07.Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element
:32:08. > :32:11.of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was
:32:12. > :32:17.categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently
:32:18. > :32:22.Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The
:32:23. > :32:26.point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are
:32:27. > :32:35.extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There
:32:36. > :32:38.is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government
:32:39. > :32:43.has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is
:32:44. > :32:47.made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative
:32:48. > :32:50.membership for example but the clear position overall is that free
:32:51. > :32:54.movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed
:32:55. > :32:58.migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages
:32:59. > :33:02.for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that
:33:03. > :33:07.end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels
:33:08. > :33:13.labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another
:33:14. > :33:17.topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning
:33:18. > :33:25.the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is
:33:26. > :33:31.social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in
:33:32. > :33:38.Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social
:33:39. > :33:44.murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my
:33:45. > :33:48.constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same
:33:49. > :33:52.cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House
:33:53. > :33:58.fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government
:33:59. > :34:04.should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and
:34:05. > :34:09.they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst
:34:10. > :34:14.also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary
:34:15. > :34:24.remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is
:34:25. > :34:29.important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell
:34:30. > :34:34.Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I
:34:35. > :34:43.go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...
:34:44. > :34:51.Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were
:34:52. > :34:57.they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:34:58. > :35:01.sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,
:35:02. > :35:06.dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that
:35:07. > :35:12.appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a
:35:13. > :35:17.simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact
:35:18. > :35:22.is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty
:35:23. > :35:27.of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken
:35:28. > :35:33.through the courts, and could be classified as corporate
:35:34. > :35:38.manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The
:35:39. > :35:42.point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:35:43. > :35:45.sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building
:35:46. > :35:50.regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and
:35:51. > :35:55.time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want
:35:56. > :35:59.the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey
:36:00. > :36:01.from Salford, thank you for joining us.
:36:02. > :36:04.You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised
:36:05. > :36:06.and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having
:36:07. > :36:11.The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote
:36:12. > :36:15.is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's
:36:16. > :36:33.Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip
:36:34. > :36:40.about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And
:36:41. > :36:45.there is plotting. This programme understands Ukip's ruling body could
:36:46. > :36:51.ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to
:36:52. > :36:55.go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,
:36:56. > :36:59.wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more
:37:00. > :37:03.about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is
:37:04. > :37:08.growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new
:37:09. > :37:14.members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I
:37:15. > :37:21.don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam
:37:22. > :37:25.and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised
:37:26. > :37:28.in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are
:37:29. > :37:36.millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't
:37:37. > :37:41.want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed
:37:42. > :37:45.to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be
:37:46. > :37:51.the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro
:37:52. > :37:59.future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a
:38:00. > :38:02.party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I
:38:03. > :38:07.don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing
:38:08. > :38:10.and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say
:38:11. > :38:12.the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its
:38:13. > :38:19.integration agenda. Banning
:38:20. > :38:21.the burka and physically checking children for female
:38:22. > :38:22.genital mutilation. If we don't really do something
:38:23. > :38:25.about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go
:38:26. > :38:27.further but also suspects The party chairman says
:38:28. > :38:33.there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,
:38:34. > :38:49.including the screening process
:38:50. > :38:51.for its leadership candidates conducted
:38:52. > :38:52.by an external vetting company. But like the old boss,
:38:53. > :38:54.he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now
:38:55. > :38:58.is a process where people can I'm talking about the process
:38:59. > :39:02.we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,
:39:03. > :39:05.its history, and protect its future. We have always been
:39:06. > :39:07.about being for something, we are not against something,
:39:08. > :39:09.and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election
:39:10. > :39:12.so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one
:39:13. > :39:13.particular candidate. But it has got senior
:39:14. > :39:15.party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me
:39:16. > :39:18.the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away
:39:19. > :39:20.if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source
:39:21. > :39:23.said there would be mass The deadline for leadership
:39:24. > :39:27.nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have
:39:28. > :39:29.said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,
:39:30. > :39:32.the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be
:39:33. > :39:35.the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,
:39:36. > :39:38.amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most
:39:39. > :39:41.successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become
:39:42. > :39:43.more professional on their current
:39:44. > :39:51.trajectory, then they will on their current
:39:52. > :39:54.trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers
:39:55. > :39:58.and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it
:39:59. > :40:01.so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,
:40:02. > :40:03.get your act together, Whatever the direction
:40:04. > :40:13.the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think
:40:14. > :40:24.the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers
:40:25. > :40:34.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:40:35. > :40:39.we'll be talking about what's next Hello and welcome to
:40:40. > :40:51.the Sunday Politics Wales. In a few minutes,
:40:52. > :40:54.the Assembly's Presiding Officer tells us what she thinks
:40:55. > :40:57.about the Repeal Bill. And with Wimbledon in mind,
:40:58. > :41:00.who's been on form this term and who's crashed out
:41:01. > :41:06.of the political match? But first, Carwyn Jones went
:41:07. > :41:08.to Brussels this week to meet the EU's chief negotiator
:41:09. > :41:13.Michel Barnier on the very same day as the Repeal Bill came out,
:41:14. > :41:16.that's the legislation that sets out how EU rules will be
:41:17. > :41:20.transferred after Brexit. The UK Government wants them to be
:41:21. > :41:25.held temporarily at Westminster, the Welsh Government says it's
:41:26. > :41:28.a naked power grab. So with that in mind
:41:29. > :41:31.was Carwyn Jones' visit It's a question I put to him
:41:32. > :41:36.when I spoke to him in the garden Bear in mind of course that
:41:37. > :41:42.wasn't the original date Actually, we had organised this
:41:43. > :41:49.meeting before we knew the date. It may seem like a highly organised
:41:50. > :41:52.event but it wasn't. What was important was,
:41:53. > :41:56.we were able to go, explain the position as far as Wales
:41:57. > :41:59.was concerned, get an idea of how the Commission saw the process
:42:00. > :42:02.moving forward. That is important in terms of us
:42:03. > :42:07.being able to see what the way Next week we have got an enormously
:42:08. > :42:13.important full week of Brexit negotiations and from a UK
:42:14. > :42:19.perspective, there are mixed That is not good for any
:42:20. > :42:23.negotiating strategy. I make absolutely no apology
:42:24. > :42:27.for putting forward Wales's voice. I don't see that in any way
:42:28. > :42:30.as mischief making, that is my job When I had the meeting
:42:31. > :42:34.with him we both knew it wasn't negotiation, it was simply us
:42:35. > :42:37.outlining what qA said so far and I was trying to understand
:42:38. > :42:40.what they saw process as. We have, for weeks and weeks
:42:41. > :42:43.and weeks, said to the UK Government we would like to work
:42:44. > :42:47.with you to develop a Brexit that We have asked them that week
:42:48. > :42:52.after week after week and they haven't come back to us
:42:53. > :42:55.with any constructive solutions. They are now, they are now,
:42:56. > :42:58.but we did say to them we are happy to work with you but bluntly,
:42:59. > :43:01.if you're not going to work Did you pick up the phone
:43:02. > :43:05.to David Davis this weekend? David Davies has been
:43:06. > :43:08.speaking to Mark Drakeford. He spoke to Mark last
:43:09. > :43:11.on the 3rd of July. I have been speaking
:43:12. > :43:14.to Alun Cairns as well. Theresa May, where she is,
:43:15. > :43:18.nobody ever knows. David Davis is the man
:43:19. > :43:21.representing Wales, representing Welsh farmers, steelworkers in those
:43:22. > :43:25.Brexit negotiations and you are not Instead, you go to Brussels
:43:26. > :43:29.and you are speaking to the man who is representing French farmers
:43:30. > :43:32.and Italian farmers. I don't agree with David Davis,
:43:33. > :43:37.bluntly, and the position the UK You can talk to David Davis
:43:38. > :43:42.and it is very useful to have meetings with him
:43:43. > :43:45.and that is something I very much value but he believes the UK
:43:46. > :43:47.Government should leave the single market, the customs union
:43:48. > :43:50.and the jurisdiction of the ECJ. I don't believe in
:43:51. > :43:52.any of those things. We are not going to
:43:53. > :43:55.achieve common ground. We have had the Repeal Bill
:43:56. > :43:59.published this week. A central issue here
:44:00. > :44:03.is you want all those European powers distributed to
:44:04. > :44:07.the devolved nations. But the problem is,
:44:08. > :44:09.there is no time for that. This is an internal
:44:10. > :44:15.matter for the UK. As things stand at the moment,
:44:16. > :44:19.those powers come straight here in They don't go to London,
:44:20. > :44:22.they don't go to fisheries, What the UK Government is trying
:44:23. > :44:26.to do is stop them coming Basically, to put it bluntly,
:44:27. > :44:30.England does what it wants, Wales, Scotland
:44:31. > :44:33.and Northern Ireland can't. I understand we need to make
:44:34. > :44:39.sure things don't change suddenly overnight,
:44:40. > :44:41.but we said to the UK Government, the powers come
:44:42. > :44:44.to us, let's all agree we're not going to change things
:44:45. > :44:47.until we have all sat down It is an important
:44:48. > :44:50.principle that it is done through consent
:44:51. > :44:52.and not by imposition. They have got to take all the risk
:44:53. > :44:55.out of the situation. You can understand it from the UK
:44:56. > :44:57.Government's perspective when actually the devolved
:44:58. > :45:01.nations may not do that. Their priority is the morning
:45:02. > :45:04.after Brexit, Welsh farmers being able to sell their lamb
:45:05. > :45:06.to France and other That is the greatest risk Welsh
:45:07. > :45:12.farmers have is not being able to sell as they do
:45:13. > :45:14.in the single market. That is by far the greatest
:45:15. > :45:16.risk that they face. If Welsh farmers face
:45:17. > :45:18.any kind of barrier, whether it is financial,
:45:19. > :45:20.in term of regulation to selling into Europe,
:45:21. > :45:24.that is a massive chunk of That is what the UK
:45:25. > :45:27.Government needs to focus on. It's not as if any of us have said,
:45:28. > :45:31.as soon as we get the power we will do something
:45:32. > :45:33.incredibly different to There is an important
:45:34. > :45:38.principle here and that is, it is not for Westminster
:45:39. > :45:41.to try to take back powers from the Assembly once they have
:45:42. > :45:44.arrived back from Brussels. These are an exceptional
:45:45. > :45:46.set of circumstances. 20 months left and the morning
:45:47. > :45:52.after we leave, they have got to be in a position to be able
:45:53. > :45:55.to trade and strike a deal. You can only do that
:45:56. > :45:58.with one system. The UK Government is doing the most
:45:59. > :46:01.logical thing possible which is all the legislation comes
:46:02. > :46:05.in on a temporary basis and they have said all those powers
:46:06. > :46:08.will be devolved in time. They have to do this
:46:09. > :46:10.because the priority Surely, farmers will
:46:11. > :46:15.agree with that. Trade will trump the constitution
:46:16. > :46:19.in terms of priorities. As I said, trade is the most
:46:20. > :46:24.important issue, that is true. But if we don't have access
:46:25. > :46:27.to the single market on the terms we do now,
:46:28. > :46:29.farmers will suffer. There has been no
:46:30. > :46:33.guarantee of subsidies It is possible we might be
:46:34. > :46:39.forced to go to a badger cull because of something the UK
:46:40. > :46:41.Government has agreed. These are and not to be
:46:42. > :46:45.taken lightly, they are not strained constitutional
:46:46. > :46:48.issues, they are fundamentally The people of Wales voted in 2011
:46:49. > :46:53.for the powers the Assembly has now and constitutionally the powers
:46:54. > :46:57.when they leave Brussels come You talk about a power grab,
:46:58. > :47:01.does it really stack up? You look at all the problems the UK
:47:02. > :47:04.Government is facing the moment, are they really desperate to get
:47:05. > :47:08.hold of farm subsidy That is a wing of the
:47:09. > :47:12.Conservative Party that is centralist, they still haven't come
:47:13. > :47:16.to grips with devolution. Now, the principle
:47:17. > :47:19.powers should not be removed from any devolved Assembly
:47:20. > :47:21.without the consent of We face a situation where we might
:47:22. > :47:29.want to do something but we are told you can't do it
:47:30. > :47:31.and Westminster says, This is a partnership of four
:47:32. > :47:37.nations at the end of the day. If Westminster was to turn around
:47:38. > :47:42.and say, we will impose a restriction on ourselves as well,
:47:43. > :47:44.that might be a different argument. You said earlier on this is
:47:45. > :47:48.temporarily, where in the Bill does Call me old-fashioned but I want
:47:49. > :47:55.to see it in writing first. The view there of the First
:47:56. > :47:58.Minister but what about the Assembly's approach
:47:59. > :47:59.to the Repeal Bill? In her first interview
:48:00. > :48:01.since it was published the Presiding Officer Elin Jones
:48:02. > :48:14.joins me now from Aberystwyth. Good morning.
:48:15. > :48:19.I suppose the first question to you is, whether you agree with the First
:48:20. > :48:24.Minister that Wales is facing a constitutional crisis. I certainly
:48:25. > :48:30.think the bill as it is drafted currently is a recipe for
:48:31. > :48:33.constitutional uncertainty. There is a serious undermining of the
:48:34. > :48:43.constitutional settlement as we know it come as it has been voted fourth
:48:44. > :48:48.by the people of Wales. Therefore, powers that we would have expected
:48:49. > :48:54.as a result of the EU Brexit referendum to return from the EU to
:48:55. > :48:59.Wales from Brussels to Cardiff, agricultural powers, fisheries,
:49:00. > :49:04.environmental, the repeal bill as it is drafted will grab or fleas are
:49:05. > :49:12.whatever word you wish to use, those powers will be frozen by the UK
:49:13. > :49:18.Government and not returned and not be able to be utilised by the UK
:49:19. > :49:25.Government. A crisis is going too far? It is uncertainty, it is crisis
:49:26. > :49:31.because we don't really know what this will mean for the people of
:49:32. > :49:39.Wales. It seems to me as if it is the path of greatest resistance to
:49:40. > :49:44.providing the ability of Parliament throughout the UK to work together,
:49:45. > :49:48.to come up with a solution that will meet the needs of EU negotiation and
:49:49. > :49:52.also meet the needs of people, businesses, farmers who need a
:49:53. > :49:59.degree of certainty as to what life will look like the day after Brexit.
:50:00. > :50:05.It is the greatest resistance to that because it is now a
:50:06. > :50:08.constitutional issue between both UK Government and Welsh Government, but
:50:09. > :50:14.also the Scottish Government, Scottish Parliament and for my
:50:15. > :50:16.purposes, the National Assembly. This is not their week they
:50:17. > :50:21.committees of the National Assembly that have been doing significant
:50:22. > :50:24.work over the last year in working towards Brexit, this is not the way
:50:25. > :50:31.any of that work has visualised wanted to see. The Brexit being
:50:32. > :50:36.implemented across the countries of the United Kingdom. The trouble is,
:50:37. > :50:40.the UK Government is the member state and will be leading the
:50:41. > :50:46.negotiations. That is not much the Assembly can do. Yes, that is much
:50:47. > :50:53.the Assembly can do. The Assembly has the gift or not its consent to
:50:54. > :51:00.this bill as it is drafted. It doesn't seem as if there is a
:51:01. > :51:09.majority from day one to give that consent to this Bill as it is
:51:10. > :51:13.drafted. But it could be ignored? There is no statutory legal reason
:51:14. > :51:19.why the UK Government, it is more convention, or how do you see it
:51:20. > :51:22.panning out? It is not a good way to do Brexit, to give certainty to
:51:23. > :51:26.businesses and farmers and communities in Wales that one
:51:27. > :51:31.Parliament is ignoring the view of another Parliament. There are many
:51:32. > :51:35.ways in which this could be done better than the way the repeal Bill
:51:36. > :51:40.is putting forward at the moment. I want to use these next few weeks and
:51:41. > :51:47.months because time is running out, but the National Assembly has done
:51:48. > :51:52.much work on this already. It is in some underlying principles that
:51:53. > :51:56.could be there for the four countries on common frameworks can
:51:57. > :51:59.make use of powers on day one after Brexit. That can give the certainty
:52:00. > :52:08.that the UK Government is looking for in its negotiations with the EU.
:52:09. > :52:15.What would you do if it was ignored? If the vote in the legislative
:52:16. > :52:19.consent motion was passed at the Assembly to reject the fuel bill and
:52:20. > :52:24.the UK Government ignored it? If we go to that point, and I
:52:25. > :52:30.seriously hope we won't, I am confident the UK Government will
:52:31. > :52:34.work with us to redraft clause 11 which is particularly problematic of
:52:35. > :52:39.the EU withdrawal bill. If we got at that point where the view of the
:52:40. > :52:44.Assembly, the view of the Scottish Parliament elected bodies that have
:52:45. > :52:50.been elected and powers are thereby view of referenda that have happened
:52:51. > :52:55.in those in Scotland, is that he is ignored then we are in a
:52:56. > :53:02.constitutional crisis because people have voted for the legislative
:53:03. > :53:06.constitutional framework that we have currently. For that food to be
:53:07. > :53:13.ignored by any government of any political colour by any house of
:53:14. > :53:20.parliament is the constitutional crisis. I am hopeful that we won't
:53:21. > :53:24.get to that point. There are means of achieving the aims of the UK
:53:25. > :53:31.Government wants to achieve in its deliberations with the EU without
:53:32. > :53:34.having to have this constitutional showdown between their National
:53:35. > :53:38.Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament. We will have
:53:39. > :53:39.to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed.
:53:40. > :53:42.Now, as the Assembly and Westminster get ready to shut up
:53:43. > :53:44.shop for the summer, which of our politicians can say
:53:45. > :53:47.With today's Wimbledon tennis final in mind
:53:48. > :53:49.Cemlyn Davies has been assessing their form
:53:50. > :54:08.to see who's been serving aces and whose efforts have hit the net.
:54:09. > :54:11.Politics has never been a love all game and it has been another
:54:12. > :54:15.year of gripping political drama with parties on all sides
:54:16. > :54:22.doing their very best to serve aces and catch their opponents out.
:54:23. > :54:25.An unexpected championship was called last month.
:54:26. > :54:28.As ever, there were winners and losers.
:54:29. > :54:31.In Cardiff Bay, the political toing and froing saw the
:54:32. > :54:35.Conservatives climb up the Assembly rankings overtaking Plaid Cymru
:54:36. > :54:38.as the second-largest group, thanks to a couple of
:54:39. > :54:45.It has been a good year for the Welsh Conservatives in the Assembly.
:54:46. > :54:47.We are the official opposition here in the Assembly.
:54:48. > :54:50.It does give us the ability to put extra scrutiny
:54:51. > :54:53.The Welsh Conservatives also made significant gains in the
:54:54. > :54:57.local elections, however the party's results a month later were less
:54:58. > :55:07.An electoral upset saw the Conservatives lose three Welsh
:55:08. > :55:10.seats at the general election as a tactical gamble backfired
:55:11. > :55:14.The overall vote share went up dramatically for us, up to 34%.
:55:15. > :55:17.Something we have not achieved for nearly 100 years in Wales.
:55:18. > :55:19.Sadly, we lost three very good colleagues.
:55:20. > :55:21.Would you have preferred to have greater influence
:55:22. > :55:26.As I said, it is easy to look back and to say, I told you so.
:55:27. > :55:29.We're working together with colleagues to make sure we were in
:55:30. > :55:31.the best place possible for the next set of elections.
:55:32. > :55:34.We have to learn the lessons of the last campaign.
:55:35. > :55:37.We had a very successful local government campaign in Wales, that
:55:38. > :55:40.was a Welsh-led campaign, a Welsh-led campaign that
:55:41. > :55:44.delivered real results for the Conservatives in Wales.
:55:45. > :55:47.Plaid Cymru broke serve in Ceredigion to gain a Parliamentary
:55:48. > :55:52.seat but the party failed to strike a blow into the target areas like
:55:53. > :55:55.the Rhondda where party leader Leanne Wood umed
:55:56. > :55:59.and aahed over standing before finally deciding not to.
:56:00. > :56:03.I am needed here in the National Assembly.
:56:04. > :56:08.This is where we want to become the biggest party.
:56:09. > :56:12.We are focusing now on the next set of Assembly elections.
:56:13. > :56:15.I will be the candidate for Plaid Cymru for First Minister
:56:16. > :56:20.Leanne Wood says she is disappointed by Plaid's fall
:56:21. > :56:22.in the Assembly rankings but she thinks there is still
:56:23. > :56:26.everything to play for and the scores could change again
:56:27. > :56:30.Strange things are happening in politics.
:56:31. > :56:33.Strange alliances and allegiances are being made, particularly because
:56:34. > :56:37.the Brexit question goes across different party divides.
:56:38. > :56:41.I think possibly the Assembly we have got now may not be
:56:42. > :56:46.And what about Dafydd Elis-Thomas's defection?
:56:47. > :56:51.I think the decision on his part was the right one for both of us.
:56:52. > :56:59.What about the Assembly's wild cards?
:57:00. > :57:05.Ukip are about to complete their first full year in Cardiff Bay.
:57:06. > :57:10.I think I have added a bit of colour to the proceedings
:57:11. > :57:15.as well which hasn't always been to everybody's taste.
:57:16. > :57:18.However, Ukip double-faulted in the elections this year
:57:19. > :57:23.and two of the party's once seven strong team in the Assembly
:57:24. > :57:28.have now called out since they were elected in 2016.
:57:29. > :57:31.Our big challenge for next year in the year after is
:57:32. > :57:36.to establish Ukip's purpose in a post-Brexit Britain.
:57:37. > :57:40.And so, as Westminster and Cardiff Bay head for
:57:41. > :57:44.a change of ends after some exhausting rallies, the parties will
:57:45. > :57:50.A chance to iron out the foot faults and prepare for the next volley
:57:51. > :57:58.So that's where we are, but what can we expect next?
:57:59. > :58:07.Dr Sam Blaxland from Swansea University is here with me now.
:58:08. > :58:14.Good morning. A great opportunity to take stock. Another extraordinary
:58:15. > :58:19.year. Let's kick off with the general election and Jeremy Corbyn's
:58:20. > :58:22.performance. I got the impression Welsh Labour whereabouts
:58:23. > :58:25.differentiating themselves from Jeremy Corbyn and lo and behold he
:58:26. > :58:34.was more popular than people thought. We can't make Windows into
:58:35. > :58:39.souls what would've happened if Corbyn would've taken the lead in
:58:40. > :58:43.Wales. It is the Corbyn factor. He is a very good campaigner, much
:58:44. > :58:49.better out on the streets. For people like me, of people of my
:58:50. > :58:56.generation, he is a breath of fresh air even though he is an OAP. He is
:58:57. > :59:02.a world away from the politics my generation grew up with in terms of
:59:03. > :59:07.Tony Blair. He had a huge impact for a lot of people. What is remarkable
:59:08. > :59:12.is he was saying a lot of socialist things, he had a very expensive
:59:13. > :59:16.manifesto and it was remarkable he went out and said all these things
:59:17. > :59:19.and wasn't challenged by the Conservatives. That was one of the
:59:20. > :59:24.significant features of the election. Let's talk about the
:59:25. > :59:30.Conservatives. A disappointing election. A second disappointing
:59:31. > :59:35.election result in Wales. It interrupted this narrative of
:59:36. > :59:42.progress and momentum that we have seen from a low base in the last 20
:59:43. > :59:47.years. What it boils down to is the share of the vote certain party gets
:59:48. > :59:51.isn't reflective of the seats they win. As Andrew RT Davies said, they
:59:52. > :59:58.got a high yet share of the vote than they did in 1993 but then
:59:59. > :00:03.proceeds fell. It is about the way everything aligned. Plaid Cymru, the
:00:04. > :00:09.share of their vote went down but they got more seats. It is
:00:10. > :00:15.confusing. The Conservative momentum stalled. If there was any momentum
:00:16. > :00:18.there. That's what Knutson said fault of the Conservatives. It came
:00:19. > :00:24.down to the fact that we have returned to this 2-party system. A
:00:25. > :00:29.great proportion of the vote was given to Labour and the
:00:30. > :00:33.Conservatives. The huge fault lines like Leanne Wood said, the big fault
:00:34. > :00:40.lines in politics are within the political parties themselves.
:00:41. > :00:44.It is a good point. On that, let's look at the party is caught in the
:00:45. > :00:51.middle. The Liberal Democrats, an obvious example here, expectation as
:00:52. > :00:56.we move to the future, how would you see the role they are going to
:00:57. > :01:02.undertake? Is there any way back. There should be a role for the
:01:03. > :01:06.Liberal Democrats, they represent 48%. Vince Cable is an interesting
:01:07. > :01:13.politician and I am glad he re-entered. For some reason, that is
:01:14. > :01:17.an impotence hanging around there. I don't know if that is a hangover
:01:18. > :01:23.from their coalition ears. Within the Labour Party and the
:01:24. > :01:27.Conservatives, there are grants of supporters who look far more like
:01:28. > :01:32.the Lib Dems than their leaderships. You have a socialist leadership for
:01:33. > :01:37.the Labour Party and the reasonable Conservative leadership for the
:01:38. > :01:41.Conservative Party. It isn't going to happen with if I made a wild
:01:42. > :01:45.prediction about the future of British politics there should be a
:01:46. > :01:54.real -- the realignment of the parties.
:01:55. > :01:59.Because of Brexit. Brexit has been the fundamental
:02:00. > :02:01.dividing point. Are we going to see a general election within the next
:02:02. > :02:09.year? When I came here last time I said,
:02:10. > :02:12.yes. Nye Bevan said you can't look into the crystal ball if you had the
:02:13. > :02:18.book. I don't make predictions about the future because it is bad. I
:02:19. > :02:27.don't think we will because who would want to go into it? We've got
:02:28. > :02:32.our Parliament. An element of self preservation for Conservative MPs.
:02:33. > :02:36.They should be able to tackle the line coming from the Labour Party.
:02:37. > :02:40.If there was another general election, if all of that was
:02:41. > :02:45.rewritten again, the Conservative should be able to tackle the big
:02:46. > :02:54.open goals on policy. There is one other element which is anecdotal but
:02:55. > :03:00.it is interesting. People were voting for Labour because they were
:03:01. > :03:05.voting against the complacency of the Conservative Party. That needs
:03:06. > :03:09.to be taken into consideration. In terms of Brexit, the role of the
:03:10. > :03:15.Assembly in all of this, briefly, what tact you think it'll take?
:03:16. > :03:19.It is hard to tell. Ultimately it is the second player here, the main
:03:20. > :03:26.constitutional aspect of it lies with Westminster, lies with people
:03:27. > :03:26.like David Davis. Thank you very much indeed.
:03:27. > :03:29.That's it from us for this series, we'll be back in September.
:03:30. > :03:31.Twitter never rests of course, we're @walespolitics.
:03:32. > :03:48.But for now that's all from me, time to go back to Andrew.
:03:49. > :03:51.This is the last Sunday Politics before Parliament breaks up for the
:03:52. > :03:54.summer recess, and most MPs could definitely do with some time away
:03:55. > :03:56.from the political hothouse at Westminster.
:03:57. > :03:58.But when they come back in September, both the Conservatives
:03:59. > :04:01.and Labour face some big questions over how to win an overall majority
:04:02. > :04:07.We'll talk about that in a moment, but first let's have a look at
:04:08. > :04:10.what's been happening to Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn since polling day
:04:11. > :04:26.And what we are saying is the Conservatives are the largest party.
:04:27. > :04:35.Note they don't have an overall majority at this stage.
:04:36. > :04:45.She who dares doesn't always win. Now let's get to work. The party
:04:46. > :04:48.that has lost in this election is the Conservative Party. The
:04:49. > :04:54.arguments they put forward in this election have lost. I think we need
:04:55. > :05:03.a change. That's not quite true, Labour is a party that lost. The
:05:04. > :05:10.Government failed and her coming over here to try to speak to... Who?
:05:11. > :05:12.Who do you want to speak to you had your chance. Now everyone will go
:05:13. > :05:43.angry and crazy. I think the public will want us to
:05:44. > :05:50.get the broadest possible consensus in looking at those issues. If the
:05:51. > :05:56.Prime Minister would like it, I am happy to furnish her with a copy of
:05:57. > :06:01.our election manifesto. You are now playing for Arsenal! The
:06:02. > :06:06.comments we were getting back that were passed on to me were that we
:06:07. > :06:19.were going to get a better results than we did. Devastated enough to
:06:20. > :06:23.shed a tear? Yes, a little tear at that moment, yes.
:06:24. > :06:29.Let's start with Mrs May. Another day, another leadership rumour,
:06:30. > :06:35.challenge. She is tired, she wants to fight on, she doesn't. Is this
:06:36. > :06:44.corrosive to her leadership? Hugely corrosive. My estimation of what's
:06:45. > :06:49.really going on in the party, and Tory MPs in Westminster, is the vast
:06:50. > :06:54.majority and by that I mean probably around 300 don't want a contest.
:06:55. > :06:58.They want her to stay and finish Brexit, see it through, because of
:06:59. > :07:03.the incredible Pandora's box that would open. Who's putting these
:07:04. > :07:11.incredible column inches in the papers? They are giant egos, they
:07:12. > :07:19.have been at this for several years if not decades and they are keen to
:07:20. > :07:24.manoeuvre themselves into the position to be the leader. In their
:07:25. > :07:28.own interests? Because most Tories I speak to think the risk of another
:07:29. > :07:32.leadership election is horrendous for them because they fear it could
:07:33. > :07:36.lead to a general election and they will lose. The ones you are talking
:07:37. > :07:42.about, they put their own self-interest above the interest of
:07:43. > :07:46.their party. Without a doubt. They are funny bunch, we know them very
:07:47. > :07:49.well, but they are simply incapable of putting their own interests
:07:50. > :07:55.underneath those of the country. The problem for Mrs May is this won't
:07:56. > :07:59.stop. They are going to carry on doing this I think unless she says
:08:00. > :08:04.something about her own leadership and conference is the time to do it.
:08:05. > :08:10.She needs to spell out a timetable for herself, when she will stay and
:08:11. > :08:17.go. She almost did that, didn't she, in her interview with you. She came
:08:18. > :08:23.very close. I agree with almost everything Thomas said, but those on
:08:24. > :08:29.the backbenches who don't want a leadership contest, it's not purely
:08:30. > :08:32.for the good of the country, there is self-interest there too and that
:08:33. > :08:38.is because they are eyeing up the top job and they need a few years to
:08:39. > :08:42.build up a following. My view is people like Boris Johnson 's and
:08:43. > :08:46.Amber Rudd for their own reasons think they stand a better chance
:08:47. > :08:57.once Brexit is done. At the moment Mr Johnson too toxic for the
:08:58. > :09:04.Remainers, Amber Rudd too toxic for the Leavers. Last time Mrs May went
:09:05. > :09:09.walking in the hills, in Wales, she came back and called an election.
:09:10. > :09:13.She's about to go walking in the Swiss mountains I understand in the
:09:14. > :09:18.weeks ahead for a break. Is there any chance she comes back and says
:09:19. > :09:23.I'm not going on with this? No because although I think being a
:09:24. > :09:26.human being she will be deeply traumatised by what's happened, and
:09:27. > :09:31.it will probably hit her more intensely when she moves away for a
:09:32. > :09:35.few days from the cocoon drama of the whole situation, you just have
:09:36. > :09:39.to keep going and she will be walking and thinking what have I
:09:40. > :09:45.done? But she is clearly trying to hold on and she's built up a new
:09:46. > :09:49.Number Ten. Almost an entire new personnel in there. She's brought
:09:50. > :09:53.Damian Green in as a deputy so there's no sign she plans to go in
:09:54. > :09:59.the short-term but leadership is partly about a spell on us and her
:10:00. > :10:04.ministers. The fact that her ministers, even in her interview
:10:05. > :10:07.when she was being robust in two years, they know that she won't
:10:08. > :10:13.fight part of the next election which means part of the spell has
:10:14. > :10:17.gone. When Tony Blair gave a date for his departure, you could feel
:10:18. > :10:22.the power losing away from him. The fact that assumption is there means
:10:23. > :10:29.this feverish speculation will carry on until she goes. Let me come on to
:10:30. > :10:34.Mr Corbyn who would seem to be in a much better position after the
:10:35. > :10:37.election. What does he now do though? Because if you cannot
:10:38. > :10:43.provoke an election quite quickly, you never know how long your day in
:10:44. > :10:48.the sun will be. But he does have a mission or he and the people around
:10:49. > :10:53.him, they want to take control of those parts of the Labour Party they
:10:54. > :10:57.don't already take control, and they will probably do it. Absolutely, so
:10:58. > :11:03.Jeremy Corbyn has established he's a very good campaigner. Everybody now
:11:04. > :11:08.agrees on that. Look at the clip, he now dresses in a white shirt and a
:11:09. > :11:12.dark suit, and he actually looks I won't say Prime Minister Arial but
:11:13. > :11:21.like he could possibly lead the whole country. -- prime ministerial.
:11:22. > :11:23.But the whole thing is built on protests, there isn't a fully
:11:24. > :11:28.established policy set up where he is ready to take over the Government
:11:29. > :11:33.if this election comes. The challenge for him is to turn the
:11:34. > :11:38.huge generation of support he's got over protest into the ability to
:11:39. > :11:43.govern. You heard from Rebecca Long-Bailey on Brexit alone, the
:11:44. > :11:48.party now admitting their policy is cake and eat it, that is not
:11:49. > :11:53.electorally satisfying. Final word from Isabel. The fact is Mr Corbyn
:11:54. > :12:00.has been a transformative figure for the Labour Party. If and when he
:12:01. > :12:04.goes, it's not going back to normal. It is transformative for the Labour
:12:05. > :12:10.Party and the country. I disagree with Tom, they put forward a more
:12:11. > :12:15.detailed programme than the Conservatives at the election and be
:12:16. > :12:19.costed it to some extent. I think to be facing two weighs on Brexit is
:12:20. > :12:23.the only place for a Leader of the Opposition to beat and he has been
:12:24. > :12:28.smart on that. Tony Blair when he was a leader faced to microwaves on
:12:29. > :12:37.single currency, outside of Parliament he seemed be more robust,
:12:38. > :12:44.but he's played it very smart. All I would say is for Brexiteers we want
:12:45. > :12:49.more Tony Blair saying it won't happen. You think he's such a toxic
:12:50. > :12:55.figure that whatever side he supports damages that side?
:12:56. > :13:04.Absolutely, yes. As a leader of an opposition party you cannot advance
:13:05. > :13:06.things. All right, we will have to leave it there. Enjoy your summer.
:13:07. > :13:09.That's all for today, and that's all from us until September.
:13:10. > :13:11.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics -
:13:12. > :13:19.unless it's parliament's summer recess.
:13:20. > :13:54.But for me it is thank you and goodbye.
:13:55. > :13:57.It was always a very, very deep love affair
:13:58. > :14:00.When I think of the world we inhabit, everyone will think,
:14:01. > :14:03.Yeah. And it wasn't, it was done by hand