05/11/2017

0:00:38 > 0:00:40Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:45 > 0:00:46of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:46 > 0:00:49On today's show:

0:00:49 > 0:00:51Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:51 > 0:00:58police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:58 > 0:01:01He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:01 > 0:01:03With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:03 > 0:01:06can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:06 > 0:01:08to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:08 > 0:01:12the entire political class?

0:01:12 > 0:01:18We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:18 > 0:01:24And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:24 > 0:01:25Later in the programme... have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:25 > 0:01:27A special investigation into sexual harassment at the Assembly.

0:01:27 > 0:01:31This programme is told it happens all the time and a blind eye

0:01:31 > 0:01:35is turned to bad behaviour.

0:01:35 > 0:01:37is turned to bad behaviour.

0:01:45 > 0:01:47So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:47 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:52and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:52 > 0:01:54a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:54 > 0:01:55gunpowder and treason.

0:01:55 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:01So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:01 > 0:02:09Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:09 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:13left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:13 > 0:02:15First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:15 > 0:02:17investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:17 > 0:02:20of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:20 > 0:02:22police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:22 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:26Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:26 > 0:02:28police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:28 > 0:02:36and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:36 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:41over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:41 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:53misconduct allegations.

0:02:53 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:11And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:11 > 0:03:14with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:14 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:18Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:18 > 0:03:21she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:21 > 0:03:23against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:23 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:37that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:37 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:48respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:48 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:09issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:09 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:17makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:17 > 0:04:20Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:20 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:26deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:26 > 0:04:33terms are so imprecise, it

0:04:33 > 0:04:38terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:38 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:48bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:48 > 0:04:51political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:51 > 0:04:54allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:54 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:03were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:03 > 0:05:08the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:08 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:20beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:20 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:46bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:46 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:04would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:04 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:30without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:30 > 0:06:35scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:35 > 0:06:39Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:39 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:50may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:50 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:03there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:03 > 0:07:07Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:07 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:18her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:18 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:29Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:29 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:38 > 0:07:41the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:41 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:51regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:51 > 0:08:01House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:01 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:08point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:08 > 0:08:11the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:11 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:20sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:20 > 0:08:24interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:24 > 0:08:29between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:29 > 0:08:34chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:34 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:50they might be regulated.

0:08:50 > 0:08:52Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:52 > 0:08:55about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:55 > 0:08:58to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:58 > 0:08:59counterparts this week.

0:08:59 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:04she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:04 > 0:09:07Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:07 > 0:09:10talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:10 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:17Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:17 > 0:09:20morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:20 > 0:09:27should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:27 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:38is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:38 > 0:09:40ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:40 > 0:09:45properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:45 > 0:09:49that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:49 > 0:09:55investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:55 > 0:10:00and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:10:00 > 0:10:04important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:04 > 0:10:06test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:06 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:15exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:15 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:23range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:23 > 0:10:27Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:27 > 0:10:32environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:32 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:39knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:39 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:46bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:46 > 0:10:51Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:51 > 0:10:56the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:56 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:08House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:08 > 0:11:14well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:14 > 0:11:18thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:18 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:28Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:28 > 0:11:32year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:32 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:46experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:46 > 0:11:49yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:49 > 0:11:53certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:53 > 0:11:58as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:58 > 0:12:04about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:04 > 0:12:07authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:07 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:23brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:23 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:31didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:31 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:41flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:41 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:51the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:51 > 0:12:55urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:55 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:12right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:12 > 0:13:17and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:17 > 0:13:21perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:21 > 0:13:25sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:25 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:35use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:35 > 0:13:39find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:39 > 0:13:42of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:42 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:06step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:06 > 0:14:11are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:11 > 0:14:15It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:15 > 0:14:19terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:19 > 0:14:22and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:22 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:36children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:36 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:46the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:46 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:52justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:52 > 0:14:56support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:56 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:04need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:04 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:08Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:08 > 0:15:13saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:13 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:20when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:20 > 0:15:22newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:22 > 0:15:28Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:28 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:36making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:36 > 0:15:41of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:41 > 0:15:46to work with them.

0:15:46 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:50Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:50 > 0:15:52at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:52 > 0:15:54The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:54 > 0:15:56in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:56 > 0:15:58is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:58 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:04which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:04 > 0:16:06while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:06 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:13And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:13 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:20 > 0:16:24secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:24 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:31secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:31 > 0:16:36Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:36 > 0:16:39same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:39 > 0:16:44spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:44 > 0:16:49and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:49 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:58Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:58 > 0:17:02really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:02 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:19more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:19 > 0:17:24In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:24 > 0:17:27McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:27 > 0:17:33using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:33 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:43it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:43 > 0:17:48whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:48 > 0:17:51they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:51 > 0:17:56pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:56 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:02Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:02 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:12about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:12 > 0:18:17last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:17 > 0:18:22very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:22 > 0:18:26and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:26 > 0:18:31commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:31 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:44calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:44 > 0:18:49are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:49 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:17pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:17 > 0:19:22about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:22 > 0:19:25current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:25 > 0:19:30overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:30 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:48£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:48 > 0:19:52it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:52 > 0:19:58rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:58 > 0:20:02make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:02 > 0:20:05been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:05 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:15weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:15 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:34treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:34 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:49missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:49 > 0:20:54nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:54 > 0:20:58that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:58 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:16who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:16 > 0:21:22have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:22 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:30else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:30 > 0:21:35have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:35 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:49multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:49 > 0:21:51eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:51 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:59I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:59 > 0:22:04aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:04 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:14understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:14 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:34know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:34 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:01in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:01 > 0:23:05position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:05 > 0:23:09that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:09 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:30whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:30 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:51position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:51 > 0:23:58has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:58 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:06the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:06 > 0:24:10have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:10 > 0:24:16did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:16 > 0:24:21speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:21 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:28 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:45prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:45 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:54treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:54 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:04making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:04 > 0:25:08was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:08 > 0:25:15it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:15 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:25of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:25 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:33independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:33 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:42friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:42 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:09to us

0:26:09 > 0:26:11For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:11 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:19plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:19 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:34The 7th November 1917.

0:26:34 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:42Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:42 > 0:26:45This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:45 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:51was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:51 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:27:00The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:27:00 > 0:27:02of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:02 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:10Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:10 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:22The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:22 > 0:27:24October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:24 > 0:27:29asserting their authority.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:37there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:37 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:43Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:43 > 0:27:46this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:46 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:51the discourse of history.

0:27:51 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:59I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:59 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:08He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:08 > 0:28:14to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:14 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:22and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:22 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:28We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:28 > 0:28:30There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:30 > 0:28:32from the Cold War period.

0:28:32 > 0:28:34It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:34 > 0:28:36But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:36 > 0:28:39The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:39 > 0:28:42of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:42 > 0:28:45and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:45 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:52the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55We wanted to have this conference

0:28:55 > 0:28:58because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:58 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:09of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:10 > 0:29:14Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:14 > 0:29:17The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:17 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:25camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:25 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:34 > 0:29:36That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:36 > 0:29:38So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:38 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:52Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:52 > 0:29:57revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:57 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:04truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:04 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:15back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:15 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:28his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:28 > 0:30:32Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:32 > 0:30:35former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:35 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:56Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:56 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:20And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:20 > 0:31:20Peter Hitchens, Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:20 > 0:31:20Peter Hitchens, does Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:20 > 0:31:21Peter Hitchens, does it Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:21 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:22 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:22 > 0:31:23Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:23 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:36cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:36 > 0:31:53Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:53 > 0:31:59was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:59 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:10why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:10 > 0:32:12misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:12 > 0:32:16possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:16 > 0:32:22and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:22 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:28to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:28 > 0:32:33acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:33 > 0:32:36statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:36 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:49camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:49 > 0:32:53Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:53 > 0:32:57never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:57 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:06events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:06 > 0:33:11decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:11 > 0:33:14is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:14 > 0:33:19earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:19 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:29China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:29 > 0:33:34people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:34 > 0:33:39system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:39 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:46mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:46 > 0:33:49which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:59complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:59 > 0:34:04about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:04 > 0:34:07events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:17overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:17 > 0:34:22we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:22 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:40has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:40 > 0:34:46Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:46 > 0:34:49overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:49 > 0:34:56second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:56 > 0:34:59not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:59 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:14discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:14 > 0:35:22Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:22 > 0:35:27world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:27 > 0:35:32and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:32 > 0:35:35Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:35 > 0:35:40You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:40 > 0:35:47Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:47 > 0:35:53Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:53 > 0:35:58disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:58 > 0:36:03Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:03 > 0:36:06would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:06 > 0:36:12for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:12 > 0:36:172008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:17 > 0:36:22Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:22 > 0:36:32Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:32 > 0:36:40not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:40 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:50them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:50 > 0:36:52need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:52 > 0:36:59possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:59 > 0:37:08is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:08 > 0:37:12by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:12 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:16 > 0:37:20leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:20 > 0:37:26economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:26 > 0:37:29they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:29 > 0:37:32country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:32 > 0:37:36don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:36 > 0:37:39of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:39 > 0:37:43not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:43 > 0:37:49the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:49 > 0:37:52own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:52 > 0:37:55in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:55 > 0:37:58to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:58 > 0:38:02not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:02 > 0:38:06and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:06 > 0:38:12has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:12 > 0:38:18go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:18 > 0:38:21truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:21 > 0:38:24that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:24 > 0:38:26told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:26 > 0:38:30been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:30 > 0:38:35it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:35 > 0:38:40question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:40 > 0:38:43London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:43 > 0:38:46celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:46 > 0:38:51is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:51 > 0:38:55celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:55 > 0:39:00the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:00 > 0:39:06the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:06 > 0:39:08thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:08 > 0:39:14rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:14 > 0:39:17people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:17 > 0:39:23Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:23 > 0:39:30succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:30 > 0:39:38the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:38 > 0:39:42kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:42 > 0:39:47Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:47 > 0:39:49for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:51 > 0:39:55Coming up on the programme:

0:39:55 > 0:39:58We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:58 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:00 > 0:40:03It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:03 > 0:40:05We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:05 > 0:40:05does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:13 > 0:40:14Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

0:40:14 > 0:40:17In a few minutes, this programme is told sexual harassment of women

0:40:17 > 0:40:21in the Assembly goes on all the time, and what does

0:40:21 > 0:40:23the Welsh Government want from Philip Hammond

0:40:23 > 0:40:28when he presents his budget?

0:40:28 > 0:40:32when he presents his budget?

0:40:32 > 0:40:37I've been speaking with female politicians past and present about

0:40:37 > 0:40:40how women are treated in Cardiff Bay and a very clear picture emerged.

0:40:40 > 0:40:47It's just as bad as Westminster, it just doesn't get the same coverage.

0:40:47 > 0:40:58It's the story which has dominated British politics for over a week,

0:40:58 > 0:41:03politicians from all parties have been called out on allegations of

0:41:03 > 0:41:06sexual harassment and as more and more cases come forward, time and

0:41:06 > 0:41:14again, the question is asked, is this just the tip of the iceberg.

0:41:14 > 0:41:16But one question which isn't really being asked is -

0:41:16 > 0:41:19to what extent is that kind of behaviour going on here

0:41:19 > 0:41:20at the National Assembly?

0:41:20 > 0:41:23The party leaders in Wales tell us they'll be looking into issue.

0:41:23 > 0:41:26The body responsible for staff here says its revised its guidance

0:41:26 > 0:41:28and its procedures but I've spoken to over half a dozen women,

0:41:28 > 0:41:30current AMs, former AMs, researchers and officials

0:41:30 > 0:41:33and they all tell me a similar story which is that inappropriate

0:41:33 > 0:41:35behaviour towards women - and I quote -

0:41:35 > 0:41:40"goes on all the time at the Assembly."

0:41:40 > 0:41:45One former Assembly Member told me the problem is this place is so much

0:41:45 > 0:41:47smaller than Westminster.

0:41:47 > 0:41:50She said, when you see somebody acting inappropriately,

0:41:50 > 0:41:53you're more likely to know them, to be friends with them,

0:41:53 > 0:41:55that they tolerated things they shouldn't and turned a blind

0:41:55 > 0:41:57eye but she said there just weren't the procedures

0:41:57 > 0:42:00in place to deal with it.

0:42:00 > 0:42:03Another former Assembly Member told me of the story of a female

0:42:03 > 0:42:06researcher waking up to find a male Assembly Member undressing her.

0:42:06 > 0:42:09Another occasion where she had to physically step in to stop

0:42:09 > 0:42:11a colleague from harassing another female researcher.

0:42:11 > 0:42:16The head of a body which supports women in the workplace said it's

0:42:16 > 0:42:20a problem for the Assembly as well as councils across Wales.

0:42:20 > 0:42:26There's something I said about power and public exposure that changes

0:42:26 > 0:42:28people's behaviour or not changes it, but enables people to feel

0:42:28 > 0:42:35a little bit more cavalier about behaving in a way

0:42:35 > 0:42:38that they wouldn't dare to do in front of their friends and family.

0:42:38 > 0:42:41And I would be amazed if there wasn't a woman working

0:42:41 > 0:42:47in Welsh public life who didn't agree or didn't have a story

0:42:47 > 0:42:49of their own to tell.

0:42:49 > 0:42:53On a scale no doubt from the relatively minor,

0:42:53 > 0:42:56if you like, to much more serious accusations, and I've no doubt

0:42:56 > 0:43:00that those will come out over the next few weeks and months.

0:43:00 > 0:43:02So what are the parties doing?

0:43:02 > 0:43:05Labour told us that this week, they've written to the constituency

0:43:05 > 0:43:08secretary and women's officers with specific guidance

0:43:08 > 0:43:11about reporting complaints of sexual harassment,

0:43:11 > 0:43:13including a copy of the procedure.

0:43:13 > 0:43:17The Conservatives said they were actively working

0:43:17 > 0:43:21with colleagues across the party to ensure that all appropriate

0:43:21 > 0:43:23safeguards are in place to protect staff from harassment

0:43:23 > 0:43:25in all its forms.

0:43:25 > 0:43:30The Lib Dems say there are clear guidance on how to make a complaint

0:43:30 > 0:43:33and in cases where the complainant doesn't wish to disclose

0:43:33 > 0:43:35their identity, the pastoral care officer can act

0:43:35 > 0:43:36as a de facto complainant.

0:43:36 > 0:43:39Ukip Wales say it's reviewing safeguarding procedures

0:43:39 > 0:43:43within the party to ensure the protection of all

0:43:43 > 0:43:44who work with them.

0:43:44 > 0:43:47Plaid Cymru said they had recently put new infrastructure in place to

0:43:47 > 0:43:50deal with complaints more quickly.

0:43:50 > 0:43:54"We are also reviewing our internal protocols and considering how

0:43:54 > 0:43:55we can strengthen them."

0:43:55 > 0:43:57But there is an indication of the problem.

0:43:57 > 0:44:01Plaid are dealing with several accusations of bullying behaviour

0:44:01 > 0:44:03by one of its elected members.

0:44:03 > 0:44:07But eight months after saying they were going to deal

0:44:07 > 0:44:09with the complaint, it's still nowhere near being concluded.

0:44:09 > 0:44:12And two of the women who have made the complaint told us

0:44:12 > 0:44:14they are deeply unhappy with the process, not least

0:44:14 > 0:44:19about because on Tuesday, they got this e-mail

0:44:19 > 0:44:21from the party's chief executive telling them part of the reason

0:44:21 > 0:44:24it was taking so long was because of the summer break

0:44:24 > 0:44:27and the fact that the party had to change its standing orders

0:44:27 > 0:44:29to deal with the complaints.

0:44:29 > 0:44:32It's been called a young democracy and has been lauded for its family

0:44:32 > 0:44:35friendly hours and having a greater proportion of women among

0:44:35 > 0:44:38its members than Westminster but it's clear that Cardiff Bay

0:44:38 > 0:44:39is far from immune to the inappropriate

0:44:39 > 0:44:46behaviour which has had so much attention elsewhere.

0:44:46 > 0:44:47Well, that's the situation.

0:44:47 > 0:44:51But why and how does it happen in Cardiff Bay?

0:44:51 > 0:44:54Well, Cathy Owens has worked at the very highest level

0:44:54 > 0:44:56as a special advisor to Rhodri Morgan and works

0:44:56 > 0:45:05closely with AMs and ministers as a lobbyist.

0:45:05 > 0:45:08Well, I'm pleased that we're actually talking about it now.

0:45:08 > 0:45:12We have been talking about this for a number of years.

0:45:12 > 0:45:18We've made it clear for a number of years now that it's been

0:45:18 > 0:45:21prevalent here in Cardiff Bay.

0:45:21 > 0:45:23Not just in Cardiff Bay, in Wales.

0:45:23 > 0:45:27We're talking about women who work across the political sphere Wales,

0:45:27 > 0:45:30in Wales, at whatever level, so, yes, it has been going on here.

0:45:30 > 0:45:32We've been making it very clear for some years

0:45:32 > 0:45:36it's been going on here, so yes it is time to talk about it

0:45:36 > 0:45:39but we have been trying to talk about it for quite some time.

0:45:39 > 0:45:41Do you think you've been ignored during that time?

0:45:41 > 0:45:45Yes, absolutely we have and we've made it pretty clear

0:45:45 > 0:45:47that this has happened.

0:45:47 > 0:45:54Parties have had complaints made, where things have not happened.

0:45:54 > 0:45:58That's absolutely clear and we've made it clear to journalists

0:45:58 > 0:46:01here that it's happened here as well.

0:46:01 > 0:46:02We took the opportunity three years ago when...

0:46:02 > 0:46:08When I say we, there is an informal network of women, of course,

0:46:08 > 0:46:12who work across different parties and politics and I was very lucky

0:46:12 > 0:46:15who work across different parties in politics and I was very lucky

0:46:15 > 0:46:18to start a business a few years ago with Alison Goldsworthy

0:46:18 > 0:46:21and Nerys Evans, and we took the opportunity, I think when Alison

0:46:21 > 0:46:24very bravely stood up and talked about what happened to her to say

0:46:24 > 0:46:26very clearly this was happening in Wales and in fact,

0:46:26 > 0:46:29what happened to Alison and other women involved in the issue

0:46:29 > 0:46:34regarding Lord Rennard, happened to here in Wales.

0:46:34 > 0:46:38We made that clear to people so my concern has been simply a lack

0:46:38 > 0:46:40of fluosity amongst some of the media as well as really

0:46:40 > 0:46:44an abject failure on the parties to be able to tackle this very well.

0:46:44 > 0:46:46Is it something that you can say that you've got

0:46:46 > 0:46:47personal experience of?

0:46:47 > 0:46:48Yes, of course.

0:46:48 > 0:46:49Absolutely.

0:46:49 > 0:46:53Can you elaborate on that at all?

0:46:53 > 0:46:58One experience I had very, very early on in my career was,

0:46:58 > 0:47:03looking back now, it sounds odd, but the experience I had

0:47:03 > 0:47:05was, I've lost my keys, I need somewhere to stay.

0:47:05 > 0:47:14You know, in a relationship which was very distinct in terms

0:47:14 > 0:47:22of power differences, I was very early on in my career and

0:47:22 > 0:47:23this was an elected representative.

0:47:23 > 0:47:26I made very clear that nothing was going to happen.

0:47:26 > 0:47:27He's staying in the spare room.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29And then, sometime later, coming into my bedroom

0:47:29 > 0:47:34and trying to get into my bed.

0:47:34 > 0:47:37I've had a situation where somebody's come into the taxi

0:47:37 > 0:47:40that I'm going home in, so, you know, this isn't

0:47:40 > 0:47:43about my experiences, this is about the experience

0:47:43 > 0:47:49of women that we've worked with over the last 20 years.

0:47:49 > 0:47:51One of the former Assembly Members I was talking to was saying

0:47:51 > 0:47:54that the fact that the Assembly's such a small institution makes it

0:47:54 > 0:47:57so much more difficult, because you see a man behaving

0:47:57 > 0:48:07in a horrifically inappropriate manner, but it's more difficult

0:48:07 > 0:48:12because you know him.

0:48:12 > 0:48:16because you know him.

0:48:16 > 0:48:18You're friends with him.

0:48:18 > 0:48:19Has that been your experience?

0:48:19 > 0:48:21Is that how you see it as well?

0:48:21 > 0:48:23That's not that different from Westminster.

0:48:23 > 0:48:25What's difficult is that this is a political sphere.

0:48:25 > 0:48:28It's so the power of it makes it more difficult than say,

0:48:28 > 0:48:29potentially in another industry.

0:48:29 > 0:48:30You can't simply go to HR.

0:48:30 > 0:48:32You've got to make a decision about how far you're

0:48:32 > 0:48:34going to take this.

0:48:34 > 0:48:36You've got to have your parties, because a lot of people

0:48:36 > 0:48:39are working in parties, you've got to have the competence

0:48:39 > 0:48:41of the organisation to back you, because they make political

0:48:41 > 0:48:43decisions which are different from those which are around safeguarding.

0:48:43 > 0:48:46It's been difficult for journalists you have to deal with as well

0:48:46 > 0:48:49and one of your colleagues may bravely go forward and said

0:48:49 > 0:48:50this happened to her.

0:48:50 > 0:48:53Of course it did and of course it's happened to other women.

0:48:53 > 0:48:56The point you were making their about the HR side of things

0:48:56 > 0:48:59The point you were making there about the HR side of things

0:48:59 > 0:49:01and that it is difficult because these men are making

0:49:01 > 0:49:03decisions about your career and everything like that,

0:49:03 > 0:49:04do you think these men know that?

0:49:04 > 0:49:06Of course they do.

0:49:06 > 0:49:07And feed off it?

0:49:07 > 0:49:08Well, of course they do.

0:49:08 > 0:49:10This isn't random men flirting with women.

0:49:10 > 0:49:12This is the situation and I'd just like to say,

0:49:12 > 0:49:14this is a small number of men.

0:49:14 > 0:49:16It is a very, very small number of men.

0:49:16 > 0:49:18And, you know, I think it's important to say as well,

0:49:18 > 0:49:21if this is a story that becomes about what happened on Friday,

0:49:21 > 0:49:23then it would be doing a great disservice...

0:49:23 > 0:49:25Friday, Carl Sargeant as a Cabinet minister being sacked

0:49:25 > 0:49:28because of his personal conduct.

0:49:28 > 0:49:31It would be doing a great disservice to the women who worked in politics

0:49:31 > 0:49:34in Wales over the last 20 years, because it would be actually

0:49:34 > 0:49:36missing the reality of what is actually going on.

0:49:36 > 0:49:38We are talking about a small number of men.

0:49:38 > 0:49:41We have a lot of allies who are men as well,

0:49:41 > 0:49:44who are very supportive of what we do, trying

0:49:44 > 0:49:48to raise our voices here but let's not suggest a lot of other men don't

0:49:48 > 0:49:49know what is going on as well.

0:49:49 > 0:49:52Thankfully, we are talking about a small number of men who have

0:49:52 > 0:49:57used their positions and are sexual predators.

0:49:57 > 0:50:00They've used their positions in politics knowing

0:50:00 > 0:50:03that the parties will protect them.

0:50:03 > 0:50:06This is not a party political issue.

0:50:06 > 0:50:10It happens across all parties.

0:50:10 > 0:50:12There are some parties who culturally haven't quite learned

0:50:12 > 0:50:14how to deal with this at all.

0:50:14 > 0:50:17There are some parties that, let's just say, get it right

0:50:17 > 0:50:20about 50% of the time.

0:50:20 > 0:50:23And there are some parties that just abjectly awful at dealing with that.

0:50:23 > 0:50:26So when you see that the party leaders will be meeting

0:50:26 > 0:50:31with Elin Jones, on Tuesday to move on, what do they need to do and how

0:50:31 > 0:50:33hopeful are you now that they'll get to grips with that?

0:50:33 > 0:50:36Firstly, if anyone of them around that table say they didn't

0:50:36 > 0:50:38know this was going on, I would say to them,

0:50:38 > 0:50:40hang on a minute.

0:50:40 > 0:50:42If anyone of them say that their parties are fine in terms

0:50:42 > 0:50:46of the procedures they've got in, oh yes, we've got new procedures

0:50:46 > 0:50:48to deal with this - hang on a minute.

0:50:48 > 0:50:50That is absolutely not the case and we know that

0:50:50 > 0:50:53because we are testing those procedures are right at this minute

0:50:53 > 0:50:55and they are failing.

0:50:55 > 0:50:58So, you know, also I think what they'll be talking

0:50:58 > 0:51:02about importantly is about having a system within the Assembly

0:51:02 > 0:51:05for people who work in that building but that isn't enough.

0:51:05 > 0:51:07These parties cannot be let off the hook.

0:51:07 > 0:51:10They have got to take responsibility for it and the leaders in Wales have

0:51:10 > 0:51:12got to take responsibility for it.

0:51:12 > 0:51:14You can't have people leaving it to the people in London,

0:51:14 > 0:51:16saying we'll put some guidance in place.

0:51:16 > 0:51:18The party leaders in Wales have got to take

0:51:18 > 0:51:22responsibility for it as well.

0:51:22 > 0:51:28responsibility for it as well.

0:51:28 > 0:51:28responsibility for it as well.

0:51:35 > 0:51:40Carwyn Jones reshuffled his government at the end of the week,

0:51:40 > 0:51:46with Jane Hutt and Carl Sargeant leaving their posts. In came a raft

0:51:46 > 0:51:51of new names, including bye knew maybe, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas,

0:51:51 > 0:51:57finally a minister after 43 years in public life. Valerie Livingston

0:51:57 > 0:52:06Jones B. Before we go on to that, you have worked at the highest level

0:52:06 > 0:52:09of working with government, and what are your reflections on what you've

0:52:09 > 0:52:15just heard? An incredibly brave interview. She

0:52:15 > 0:52:19is absolutely right to say that there's a problem in Cardiff Bay.

0:52:19 > 0:52:26This is the opportunity to tackle it. Can't have words. We need

0:52:26 > 0:52:30action. We need to make politics a safe place for young women to work

0:52:30 > 0:52:34and to build their careers based on the talent is not on the

0:52:34 > 0:52:38relationships before modern form. And that meeting we mentioned, the

0:52:38 > 0:52:44party leaders on Tuesday, it's easy to say we're changing the procedures

0:52:44 > 0:52:49but it's that culture which will be a lot more stubborn, I'm assuming,

0:52:49 > 0:52:57to judge.The culture goes to the heart of it. People going to

0:52:57 > 0:53:02politics because of the belief and it's that belief that leads to this

0:53:02 > 0:53:06career for your personal life is so closely linked to your professional

0:53:06 > 0:53:11life. I think unpicking that and putting into place professional

0:53:11 > 0:53:19practices will be a challenge that we can't shyly a la -- away from.

0:53:19 > 0:53:24We've invited you to talk about the Cabinet reshuffle. How much of a

0:53:24 > 0:53:29surprise? There will be a reshuffle. How much of a surprise, the comings

0:53:29 > 0:53:37and goings, the new intake, who came in as government ministers?What are

0:53:37 > 0:53:43your feelings? It wasn't a big surprise. We've been waiting for

0:53:43 > 0:53:49this show reshuffle to happen. When Carwyn Jones formed his cabinet

0:53:49 > 0:53:53after the 2016 election, they went a huge number of new faces and this is

0:53:53 > 0:54:01an opportunity to bring them in. There are several to watch and they

0:54:01 > 0:54:07are now in government 18 months into the political careers.We've got

0:54:07 > 0:54:11Jeremy Miles, another of the new intake, straightened the Cabinet. He

0:54:11 > 0:54:18is the main legal officer for the Welsh Government. Part of the fact

0:54:18 > 0:54:24that he's overtaken everyone else? Certainly, he's proven himself to be

0:54:24 > 0:54:29a keen legal mind in the Assembly. He asks highly technical questions

0:54:29 > 0:54:36and understands that belief. A less high-profile role than some of the

0:54:36 > 0:54:48ministerial ones.Carwyn Jones is to be Consulate general. In a moment,

0:54:48 > 0:54:57we discuss... He doesn't mind taking on the challenge. Do we expect any

0:54:57 > 0:55:01changes there in the way the Welsh Government will be approaching the

0:55:01 > 0:55:04changes, to local government, now that's been given to Alun Davies?

0:55:04 > 0:55:09The reform of local government was driven forward by Leighton Andrews.

0:55:09 > 0:55:15It has been put on the back burner in recent months because Alun Davies

0:55:15 > 0:55:22has had a lot on his plate with Brexit and the budget.Leighton

0:55:22 > 0:55:27Andrews has said we're going to get you down to eight or nine and Mark

0:55:27 > 0:55:32Drakeford came in a lot more laid back, and said let's work together,

0:55:32 > 0:55:40let's see what we get. Do you think we're going to go back to Leighton

0:55:40 > 0:55:44Andrews or continue with the Mark Drakeford style?I think we'll see

0:55:44 > 0:55:49more pushing from Alun Davies.And what does this tell us about Carwyn

0:55:49 > 0:55:56Jones? We were speculating he might do another year or two before he

0:55:56 > 0:56:01stands down as First Minister. He said recently he wants to serve the

0:56:01 > 0:56:04full terms. Does this tell us anything about his thinking on when

0:56:04 > 0:56:10he might stand down?I wonder if bringing those newly elected

0:56:10 > 0:56:15Assembly Members into the Cabinet was giving them the exposure to

0:56:15 > 0:56:19minister to approach -- portfolios, before he stands down. It doesn't

0:56:19 > 0:56:23seem to be on the cards at the moment but he will have been First

0:56:23 > 0:56:28Minister for ten years in May 2009, which is a lengthy time in the top

0:56:28 > 0:56:34job.Are we surprised there wasn't a Brexit Minister roll out there?

0:56:34 > 0:56:41Would turn out and out Brexit minister have helped?I don't know.

0:56:41 > 0:56:45It might have been a little more clear-cut but what the signals are

0:56:45 > 0:56:52is that Carwyn Jones sees Brexit responsibilities to lie. It's partly

0:56:52 > 0:56:56constitutional, partly financial. So he's between himself and Professor

0:56:56 > 0:56:57Drakeford.

0:56:57 > 0:56:58Drakeford.

0:56:58 > 0:57:00Ahead of Philip Hammond's Budget in a couple of weeks,

0:57:00 > 0:57:02the Welsh Government has sent him its wish list.

0:57:02 > 0:57:04In a nutshell, ministers want a commitment from Westminster

0:57:04 > 0:57:06to invest in infrastructure such as the Swansea tidal

0:57:06 > 0:57:08lagoon and other projects.

0:57:08 > 0:57:17Well, the Finance Minister Mark Drakeford joins me now.

0:57:27 > 0:57:34We can come on in a moment to discuss Philip Hammond but to go

0:57:34 > 0:57:40back to what Cathy Owens were saying, and you've worked closely

0:57:40 > 0:57:46with, watched you make of what she was saying?I felt sick to the pit

0:57:46 > 0:57:51of my stomach listening to that interview with Cathy. It was a brave

0:57:51 > 0:57:58interview and she went to the very heart of government. I sat at a desk

0:57:58 > 0:58:02close to her and she fought a good fight on behalf of the government to

0:58:02 > 0:58:06see so to hear some of their personal experiences is shocking but

0:58:06 > 0:58:10it also demonstrates as she said, the need to get the most serious

0:58:10 > 0:58:15grip on these circumstances. Nobody should imagine that there isn't an

0:58:15 > 0:58:18issue here that has to be dealt with and next week will be very important

0:58:18 > 0:58:24in making sure that happens.Does it to ring true to you what we heard

0:58:24 > 0:58:29that it is tolerated, that a blind eye was occasionally turns to

0:58:29 > 0:58:32inappropriate behaviour? Is that something that rings true with you?

0:58:32 > 0:58:38It important to pick up a couple of other things that Cathy said. She

0:58:38 > 0:58:42said the fact that we have so many women and women in prominent

0:58:42 > 0:58:46positions as the semi has made a difference. It is a different

0:58:46 > 0:58:52institution to others but in any place where power is at stake, any

0:58:52 > 0:58:57organisation, there will be some people who seek to exploit that and

0:58:57 > 0:59:03if they are -- there are instances at the Assembly, then they

0:59:03 > 0:59:05absolutely have to be taken seriously and systems have to be put

0:59:05 > 0:59:10in place to make sure that they are not tolerated if they have been in

0:59:10 > 0:59:16the past. They must not be tolerated.The meeting we mentioned,

0:59:16 > 0:59:22the power to reduce coming together how important is it that there is

0:59:22 > 0:59:27commitment to challenge in this kind of behaviour?There will be that

0:59:27 > 0:59:30commitment there. I don't believe the leadership of parties at the

0:59:30 > 0:59:34Assembly, they will be anything other than determined to make sure

0:59:34 > 0:59:38that if we are at a particular moment in which things that

0:59:38 > 0:59:41previously have been below the surface are coming through, and

0:59:41 > 0:59:45rightly so. It's very important to encourage anybody who has anything

0:59:45 > 0:59:49that they need to say to come forward and say that. I think that

0:59:49 > 0:59:53will be taken very seriously by party leaders and we'll be able to

0:59:53 > 0:59:56see next week how they want to make sure that things that may have been

0:59:56 > 1:00:01tolerated in the past and quite strongly, those things will not be

1:00:01 > 1:00:06tolerated in the future.This morning, you've publish this letter

1:00:06 > 1:00:12that you've written to Philip Hammond, the Treasurer, outlining

1:00:12 > 1:00:17what you'd like to see from the budget. It is a wish list of we want

1:00:17 > 1:00:22more, we want better, we want more spent. Is that a realistic, given

1:00:22 > 1:00:27that over the last few years, that very much hasn't been forthcoming,

1:00:27 > 1:00:32it hasn't been the style of UK Government?It's an important part

1:00:32 > 1:00:36of the budget process. We get an opportunity on the run up to the

1:00:36 > 1:00:42budget on the 22nd November to make the case for the way in which we

1:00:42 > 1:00:46think important decisions made by the Chancellor should be discharged

1:00:46 > 1:00:51in relation to Wales. I have written and I have been to the tragedy and

1:00:51 > 1:00:57bat with my Scottish counterpart as well. What we do is make a series of

1:00:57 > 1:01:01point about the economy on the whole, and then there's an

1:01:01 > 1:01:05opportunity to identify some very specific matters that are relevant

1:01:05 > 1:01:09here in Wales.If you've met with officials and politicians there,

1:01:09 > 1:01:16it's a realistic list so you've come out and written off a huge list of

1:01:16 > 1:01:20things that probably aren't going to amount to anything?My job is to

1:01:20 > 1:01:26make sure UK ministers are entirely aware of the point of view of the

1:01:26 > 1:01:31national Assembly and things that are important in Wales. Do I come

1:01:31 > 1:01:36away feeling that? I've always had the impact that I feel the need to

1:01:36 > 1:01:40have. The answer is no. We have a government in Westminster that has a

1:01:40 > 1:01:45different set of beliefs and priorities. I banged the table and

1:01:45 > 1:01:49say now is the time to put an end to austerity and lift the pick-up, and

1:01:49 > 1:01:53be sure you borrow to invest. Do I think that alongside everybody else

1:01:53 > 1:01:57who's making their spines, I'm guaranteed to win through? I don't

1:01:57 > 1:02:01say that at all. But it is very important to those points are made

1:02:01 > 1:02:06forcefully on behalf of Wales.You talk about devolving air passenger

1:02:06 > 1:02:14duty. So have your own Labour members of Parliament been reluctant

1:02:14 > 1:02:19to have that devolved. It's not all the fault of the UK Government.They

1:02:19 > 1:02:24are in charge in Westminster. I negotiate with them and say to them

1:02:24 > 1:02:29things should be devolved to Wales as it is to Scotland and Northern

1:02:29 > 1:02:33Ireland and as they recommended themselves, as it was this week

1:02:33 > 1:02:37reinforced again by new research, I'm making some very important

1:02:37 > 1:02:40points and serious points to them and that's exactly what they need to

1:02:40 > 1:02:43do.Thank you very much.

1:02:43 > 1:02:44That's it for this week.

1:02:44 > 1:02:46We're taking a short break next Sunday.

1:02:46 > 1:02:51Meanwhile don't forget about our new political and current

1:02:51 > 1:02:56affairs programme Wales Live which begins this Wednesday

1:02:56 > 1:02:57on BBC One Wales at 10.30pm.

1:02:57 > 1:03:02But for now, diolch am wylio - thanks for watching.

1:03:02 > 1:03:04Time to go back to Sarah.

1:03:06 > 1:03:07to support.

1:03:07 > 1:03:10All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:10 > 1:03:13My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:13 > 1:03:15It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:15 > 1:03:16again, you might think.

1:03:16 > 1:03:19She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:19 > 1:03:22which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:22 > 1:03:25vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:25 > 1:03:26this time apparently over housing.

1:03:26 > 1:03:29So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:29 > 1:03:30or more of a whimper?

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:31 > 1:03:33and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:33 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:39ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:39 > 1:03:45# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:45 > 1:03:49It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:49 > 1:03:52but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:52 > 1:03:56it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:56 > 1:03:59does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:59 > 1:04:00Yes or no?

1:04:00 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:11and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:11 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:17 > 1:04:20She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:20 > 1:04:22Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:22 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:26She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27No, I don't.

1:04:27 > 1:04:28I think she's a mess.

1:04:28 > 1:04:31Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:31 > 1:04:33by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:33 > 1:04:37I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:43 > 1:04:47I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:47 > 1:04:50a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:50 > 1:04:52The Queen is England's role.

1:04:52 > 1:04:54It's her birth right.

1:04:54 > 1:04:58She is England's role of this country.

1:04:58 > 1:05:00I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:00 > 1:05:04I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:04 > 1:05:07I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:07 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:11The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:11 > 1:05:12I think she should resign, really.

1:05:12 > 1:05:15I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:15 > 1:05:17I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:17 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:23With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:23 > 1:05:26moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:26 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:34Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:34 > 1:05:37And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:37 > 1:05:39But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:39 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:44The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:44 > 1:05:46in the first place for the euro.

1:05:46 > 1:05:52We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:52 > 1:05:55Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:55 > 1:05:58The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:58 > 1:06:02and the result is...

1:06:02 > 1:06:03No.

1:06:03 > 1:06:04The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:04 > 1:06:07don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:07 > 1:06:11CHEERING

1:06:11 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:20to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:20 > 1:06:21Let's put in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:21Let's put the in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:21Let's put the Sorbol in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:21Let's put the Sorbol question in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:21Let's put the Sorbol question to in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:22Let's put the Sorbol question to our in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:22 > 1:06:25Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:25 > 1:06:28seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:28 > 1:06:33Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:33 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:44All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:44 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:54her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:54 > 1:06:57in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:57 > 1:07:01in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:01 > 1:07:05could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:05 > 1:07:09say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:09 > 1:07:12goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:12 > 1:07:16think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:16 > 1:07:21things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:21 > 1:07:25basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:25 > 1:07:30basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:30 > 1:07:34minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:34 > 1:07:38impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:38 > 1:07:42opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:42 > 1:07:45action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:45 > 1:07:50get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:50 > 1:07:55her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:55 > 1:07:59is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:59 > 1:08:04Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:04 > 1:08:07not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:07 > 1:08:11giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:11 > 1:08:16an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:16 > 1:08:19has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:19 > 1:08:23her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:23 > 1:08:32like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:32 > 1:08:35retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:35 > 1:08:38longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:38 > 1:08:42or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:42 > 1:08:49being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:49 > 1:08:53think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:53 > 1:08:56Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:56 > 1:09:02be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:02 > 1:09:05Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:05 > 1:09:10again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:10 > 1:09:14investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:14 > 1:09:19into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:19 > 1:09:24Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:24 > 1:09:28the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:28 > 1:09:33promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:33 > 1:09:38simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:38 > 1:09:41not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:41 > 1:09:46possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:46 > 1:09:50seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:50 > 1:09:59goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:59 > 1:10:08knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:08 > 1:10:13are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:13 > 1:10:17Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:17 > 1:10:24in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:24 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:33less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:33 > 1:10:40Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:40 > 1:10:44Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:44 > 1:10:47vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:47 > 1:10:51They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:51 > 1:10:55moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:55 > 1:10:59Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:59 > 1:11:03with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:03 > 1:11:08virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:08 > 1:11:12guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:12 > 1:11:16part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:16 > 1:11:21whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:21 > 1:11:24what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:24 > 1:11:27that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:27 > 1:11:32Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:32 > 1:11:35glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:35 > 1:11:39should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:39 > 1:11:43a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:43 > 1:11:47of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:47 > 1:11:51quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:51 > 1:11:56steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:56 > 1:12:00that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:12:00 > 1:12:03expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:03 > 1:12:08the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:08 > 1:12:12he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:12 > 1:12:18Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:18 > 1:12:23do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:23 > 1:12:27budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:27 > 1:12:33is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:33 > 1:12:38Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:38 > 1:12:43witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:43 > 1:12:46between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:46 > 1:12:50bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:50 > 1:12:54in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:54 > 1:13:00be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:00 > 1:13:05Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:05 > 1:13:08are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:08 > 1:13:10to build for themselves.

1:13:10 > 1:13:11That's all for today.

1:13:11 > 1:13:13There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:13 > 1:13:15while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:15 > 1:13:18but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:18 > 1:13:22Until then, bye bye.