0:00:37 > 0:00:39Morning everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43And this is your guide to all the big stories that
0:00:43 > 0:00:47are shaping politics this weekend, and a few of the smaller ones too.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Philip Hammond is getting ready to deliver his latest Budget
0:00:50 > 0:00:53on Wednesday and he's not short of advice - to spend more,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55show restraint, even to stop being an Eyore -
0:00:55 > 0:01:01but can he change the direction of the country and his government?
0:01:01 > 0:01:02Conservative Party darling Jacob Rees-Mogg has
0:01:02 > 0:01:04some advice of his own.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06He thinks the Chancellor is being far too gloomy about Brexit
0:01:06 > 0:01:11- he joins me live to explain why.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14The former Leave campaign leader, Gisela Stuart, will be here debating
0:01:14 > 0:01:17with pro-EU campaigner Alastair Campbell, after taking
0:01:17 > 0:01:19a trip to her native Germany to speak to businesses
0:01:19 > 0:01:22about Brexit.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30The programme, as the government is
0:01:30 > 0:01:31rocked
0:01:31 > 0:01:32The programme, as the government is rocked by allegations of bullying,
0:01:32 > 0:01:38will be asking one of his Labour AM is what should happen next. And
0:01:38 > 0:01:43Michael Sheen on what he thinks about how realtors run and his
0:01:43 > 0:01:44possible political ambitions beyond
0:01:51 > 0:01:53All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56And with me for for all of it, three journalists who've promised
0:01:56 > 0:01:59not to show off like Michael Gove by using any long economicky words -
0:01:59 > 0:02:02although I'm not sure they really know that many anyway -
0:02:02 > 0:02:05it's Tom Newton Dunn, Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08Let's take a look at the big political stories making the news
0:02:08 > 0:02:10this Sunday morning, and as you might expect there's
0:02:10 > 0:02:12plenty of speculation about what might or not might be
0:02:12 > 0:02:15in Philip Hammond's Budget.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17The Chancellor is promising a big investment in new technology,
0:02:17 > 0:02:21including driverless cars - which could be on the road by 2021.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24He's been interviewed in the Sunday Times,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27where he talks about plans to reach the target of building
0:02:27 > 0:02:30300,000 homes every year, or the equivalent of a city
0:02:30 > 0:02:31the size of Leeds.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35That paper speculates that he's attempting to turn from "fiscal
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Phil" into "hopeful Hammond" as he tries to set out
0:02:37 > 0:02:40a vision for the country, not just a list of numbers.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43The Sunday Telegraph thinks that Mr Hammond is planning to offer
0:02:43 > 0:02:46a pay rise to nurses as part of a bid to take on Labour.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49But that hasn't impressed Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52He's spoken to a number of papers and is calling for an emergency
0:02:52 > 0:02:55budget to invest in public services and help struggling households.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58So that's a taste of what you might hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond
0:02:58 > 0:03:01and Mr McDonnell have both been appearing this morning
0:03:01 > 0:03:04on the Andrew Marr Show.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07I think Britain has a very bright future ahead of it,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10and we have to embrace the opportunities that
0:03:10 > 0:03:12a post-Brexit world will offer.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14They will be opportunities that are based on huge change,
0:03:14 > 0:03:18huge technological evolution.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21It's not always going to be easy, but the British people have shown
0:03:21 > 0:03:23time and time again that we're up for these challenges.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27For many people out there, this is a depression.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30We've had people whose wages have been cut by 10%.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Nurses, for example.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35We've had people who are now...
0:03:35 > 0:03:391.25 million food parcels handed out in the sixth richest
0:03:39 > 0:03:40country in the world.
0:03:40 > 0:03:48That's what I call a recession for large numbers of people.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54We will be talking about Labour and their economic policies in a moment,
0:03:54 > 0:03:58but let's start with what we might expect from the budget. We will talk
0:03:58 > 0:04:02to our panel of political observers. Philip Hammond is under pressure to
0:04:02 > 0:04:07set out a bold vision and reset the government's programme. Can we
0:04:07 > 0:04:12expect that?No, we can't. We have heard enough from the Chancellor
0:04:12 > 0:04:16across various broadcast and his article in the Sunday Times. I think
0:04:16 > 0:04:25we will not be getting a bold budget. His precise words short... A
0:04:25 > 0:04:28short time ago were a balanced budget. Some Tory hearts will think.
0:04:28 > 0:04:33They desperately want something to go out and shout about, something to
0:04:33 > 0:04:37capture people's imagination, and do big and bold things, like how on
0:04:37 > 0:04:43earth are they going to build those new 300,000 houses a year? There are
0:04:43 > 0:04:50good reasons why he has chosen what appears to be a pretty staid,
0:04:50 > 0:04:55Conservative budget, and that is that they are probably unable to get
0:04:55 > 0:04:58anything bold through Parliament. His capital is so low among Tory
0:04:58 > 0:05:07MPs. If you have a minority government, it is tricky.We have
0:05:07 > 0:05:10seen ministers on programmes like this in the last few weeks putting
0:05:10 > 0:05:15in the bids for what they would like spending on, whether it be payment
0:05:15 > 0:05:19for nurses or parliament. Would he struggled to get something radical
0:05:19 > 0:05:24through the Commons?Big ideas cost money. That's the problem. Bold
0:05:24 > 0:05:31ideas are controversial. In some ways, Tory MPs are asking their
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Chancellor to do the impossible. Government is already doing
0:05:34 > 0:05:40something big and bold, which is Brexit. That has implications for
0:05:40 > 0:05:44how much money is available, how many risks you want to take with
0:05:44 > 0:05:49everything else. What is crucial is that he demonstrates a reputation
0:05:49 > 0:05:54for competence. The reputation that the Conservative government has for
0:05:54 > 0:05:59economic competence, that many people prefer them to Labour on the
0:05:59 > 0:06:02issue of economic competence. The worst thing he could do is come up
0:06:02 > 0:06:08with a big, bold idea that unravelled quickly. What they
0:06:08 > 0:06:12absolutely don't want is to come up with an exciting idea that falls
0:06:12 > 0:06:17apart three days after the budget. He is under pressure from
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Brexiteers, who are suspicious of him. Does he have to offer them
0:06:20 > 0:06:25something?Part of his problem is he has to offer so many different
0:06:25 > 0:06:28people different things. This is Philip Hammond trying to be and
0:06:28 > 0:06:37dynamic.It is hard to tell sometimes.At least in theoretical
0:06:37 > 0:06:46terms. His longer-term difficulty is that, if you look at the economic
0:06:46 > 0:06:51cycle, we are getting to a point where we are probably overdue, if
0:06:51 > 0:06:56you put Brexit to one side, overdue some kind of correction or downturn,
0:06:56 > 0:07:02if you look what has happened to asset prices globally. What will be
0:07:02 > 0:07:07worrying for the Treasury is, just as everyone is saying we should turn
0:07:07 > 0:07:13on the taps and build this or that, we might be at the top of a cycle,
0:07:13 > 0:07:17and the Treasury will want to lose something in the armoury in terms of
0:07:17 > 0:07:21probably growing the deficit if there are economic difficulties in
0:07:21 > 0:07:26the next two years, and then there is Brexit as well.It sounds
0:07:26 > 0:07:31impossible.I think so. Talking to his friends and colleagues over the
0:07:31 > 0:07:36last few days, he had to make a call, which was precisely how much
0:07:36 > 0:07:42can I get away with, with my political capital being as low as it
0:07:42 > 0:07:48is, with the mixed problems he had at the last budget, and a lot of the
0:07:48 > 0:07:53party disliking his approach to Brexit. He is damned if he is,
0:07:53 > 0:08:02damned if he doesn't. Universal Credit, we are expecting a reduction
0:08:02 > 0:08:09in the time it takes to wait, business rates, affected by high
0:08:09 > 0:08:14inflation... I think we will see a problem fixing budget which will
0:08:14 > 0:08:19probably do quite a lot of important spadework in many areas.We will
0:08:19 > 0:08:24pick up on some of this later in the programme.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27Let's speak now to the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week
0:08:27 > 0:08:29he helpfully launched an alternative "budget for Brexit" and advised
0:08:29 > 0:08:31the Chancellor to be less gloomy about the consequences
0:08:31 > 0:08:35of leaving the EU.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39Thank you for joining us. Your alternative budget is pretty
0:08:39 > 0:08:48radical. Almost half corporation tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the
0:08:48 > 0:08:53London market. It seems you are advocating the opposite from what we
0:08:53 > 0:08:57will hear from your Chancellor on Wednesday.There are two parts to
0:08:57 > 0:09:01the proposals I suggested. One is that we should show that after we
0:09:01 > 0:09:07have left the European Union, the UK is open to the rest of the world. It
0:09:07 > 0:09:11is about opening up to the rest of the world. Secondly, looking at the
0:09:11 > 0:09:16modelling that has been done by the Treasury and some other forecasters,
0:09:16 > 0:09:20which has been so comprehensively wrong. The forecasts made about what
0:09:20 > 0:09:28would happen after Brexit have turned out to be hopelessly false.
0:09:28 > 0:09:33The team at Cardiff University have done some modelling based on the
0:09:33 > 0:09:36classical economic principles and what happens if you move to free
0:09:36 > 0:09:41trade that would be very positive for the economy.You are predicting
0:09:41 > 0:09:49a Brexit dividend of £135 billion, which sounds fantastic. Why are you
0:09:49 > 0:09:53right, and everybody else, including the Bank of England and the
0:09:53 > 0:09:57Institute for Fiscal Studies, why are they all wrong?It depends on
0:09:57 > 0:10:02the type of modelling. The modelling that have been done by the Treasury
0:10:02 > 0:10:06have been based on gravity models, which work on the basis of the
0:10:06 > 0:10:10nearness of the market and the size of the economy you are trading with.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15These have been wrong in the past. They predicted that if we joined the
0:10:15 > 0:10:22euro, trade would grow by 300%. That was then revised down to 200%, but
0:10:22 > 0:10:29it is fantasyland. The model I am working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,
0:10:29 > 0:10:37who has a record of getting these things right. He was right about the
0:10:37 > 0:10:41exchange rate mechanism, right about the euro.Being right in the past
0:10:41 > 0:10:46doesn't mean you are right about the future. Why do you think the
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Treasury will not pick up the same numbers, if this is so obvious to
0:10:50 > 0:10:55you?I think the Treasury was humiliated by the errors in its
0:10:55 > 0:11:01forecast prior to Brexit, and is trying to defend its position. The
0:11:01 > 0:11:04short-term economic consequences of a vote to leave was one of the most
0:11:04 > 0:11:10dishonest documents to come out of the Treasury, purely a piece of
0:11:10 > 0:11:13political propaganda. They are wounded by that and sticking to the
0:11:13 > 0:11:18same script, rather than looking at other forecasts and other experts.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22You think the governor of the Bank of England is an enemy of Brexit,
0:11:22 > 0:11:27and it sounds like you think the Treasury is opposed to it. As the
0:11:27 > 0:11:32Chancellor fallen under their spell as well, and been persuaded to be an
0:11:32 > 0:11:38enemy of Brexit?I have admiration the Chancellor, but George Osborne,
0:11:38 > 0:11:43his predecessor, was the architect of Project Fear. He was too close to
0:11:43 > 0:11:47the Bank of England and lost his independence. That is what needs to
0:11:47 > 0:11:53change. It is an opportunity in the budget for Philip Hammond to show he
0:11:53 > 0:11:58is putting aside the Treasury's mistakes in the past. It is very
0:11:58 > 0:12:03encouraging what he is saying this morning, about a more positive
0:12:03 > 0:12:08approach to Brexit.Lord Lawson has accused Philip Hammond of being very
0:12:08 > 0:12:15close to sabotage on Brexit. He says we need a can-do man at the Treasury
0:12:15 > 0:12:19and not a prophet of doom.I think that Philip Hammond is an
0:12:19 > 0:12:23exceptionally intelligent man, a very thoughtful man. It is not a bad
0:12:23 > 0:12:28thing to have a Chancellor who is serious minded and steady, rather
0:12:28 > 0:12:35than one who is a showman and uses the Exchequer to interfere in
0:12:35 > 0:12:39absolutely everything.I have a lot of confidence in the Chancellor.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44When you launched your budget for Brexit, you said the government has
0:12:44 > 0:12:50to deliver the £350 million for the NHS that was delivered during the
0:12:50 > 0:12:53referendum, even though you didn't think that promise should have been
0:12:53 > 0:12:58made. Is that something they now need to deliver wrong?It is. This
0:12:58 > 0:13:03only happens once we have left. Politicians have to recognise that
0:13:03 > 0:13:11voters don't look at the small print of electoral policies. If you put
0:13:11 > 0:13:16£350 million on the side of a bus and say it may be available for the
0:13:16 > 0:13:22NHS, it is reasonable for people to think that is a promise. Brexit was
0:13:22 > 0:13:28won by the Leave campaign, so it it is important that they deliver on
0:13:28 > 0:13:32that promise. Politicians must keep faith with voters and deliver on
0:13:32 > 0:13:37implied promises, as well as ones that are set out in detail.The
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Cabinet will move on to talk about the Brexit bill this week, and we
0:13:41 > 0:13:46understand they may need to come up with more money to satisfy EU
0:13:46 > 0:13:49demands. The more money spent on that is less money available for
0:13:49 > 0:13:55things like spending on the NHS. Are you worried about the size of the
0:13:55 > 0:14:02exit bill?You have your finger on the important point. The government
0:14:02 > 0:14:06will have to choose whether to give lots of money to the European Union,
0:14:06 > 0:14:11or whether to spend money on UK public services, and that will be
0:14:11 > 0:14:15part of the negotiation. On all these issues, it comes down to
0:14:15 > 0:14:20choice is the government makes. I would encourage the government to
0:14:20 > 0:14:24choose our own domestic public services rather than expensive
0:14:24 > 0:14:28schemes in continent or Europe.Why are you advocating that the
0:14:28 > 0:14:38government should spend up to £2.5 billion on a no deal scenario?
0:14:38 > 0:14:43It is important that we are ready to leave in the event of no deal. If we
0:14:43 > 0:14:49left with no deal we would on current figures still be saving the
0:14:49 > 0:14:55remains of 18 billion so we would be saving 15 and a half billion against
0:14:55 > 0:15:00paying for the financial framework. To show we're ready on day one would
0:15:00 > 0:15:07be money well spent and most would be needed any way. We need to have
0:15:07 > 0:15:12new customs arrangements in place even if it is not for a no deal
0:15:12 > 0:15:15situation.There are suggestions that the Government might back down
0:15:15 > 0:15:19on the idea of putting the time and date of leaving the EU on the face
0:15:19 > 0:15:23of the bill. Would you be Exxon certained if that was -- concerned
0:15:23 > 0:15:31if that was remove prd the bill?It is in Article 50, unless Article 50
0:15:31 > 0:15:41is extended by the Council of Europe we leave on 20th March 2019 and it
0:15:41 > 0:15:45makes accepts that should be the same in -- sense that should be in
0:15:45 > 0:15:48same in domestic law. But that is a secondary concern from my point of
0:15:48 > 0:15:53view. It is important that we leave on that date.Stay there if you
0:15:53 > 0:15:55would.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57We're joined in the studio by the former minister
0:15:57 > 0:15:58Stephen Hammond.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01He's no relation to the Chancellor, but he is a member
0:16:01 > 0:16:04of the Treasury Select Committee and he's one of the Tory MPs named
0:16:04 > 0:16:06as "Brexit mutineers" by the Daily Telegraph
0:16:06 > 0:16:08this week - lucky him.
0:16:08 > 0:16:13I'm assured you're no relation to the Chancellor. Let's just pick up
0:16:13 > 0:16:22on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying. How important is it to you as a
0:16:22 > 0:16:27rebel that the Government does put the date on.I agree with Jacob it
0:16:27 > 0:16:32is in the Article 50 process, the key reason it is important is the
0:16:32 > 0:16:36negotiations look like they're going to be tricky and longer than we
0:16:36 > 0:16:43expected and it may well be that we are still negotiating up until March
0:16:43 > 0:16:482019. We could have a short couple of weeks period of extension. Why do
0:16:48 > 0:16:53harm to the economy by falling out on a precise time? If those
0:16:53 > 0:16:57negotiations need to be extended. They won't go on for more than a
0:16:57 > 0:17:01couple of weeks, because there will be elections in Europe in June 2019
0:17:01 > 0:17:06and there is no chance of a new commission or Parliament dealing
0:17:06 > 0:17:13with this. Giving it flexibility and with this flexibility the government
0:17:13 > 0:17:16said it wants flexibility in negotiations, why give all the
0:17:16 > 0:17:22advantage to the other side? Part of that was evidenced yesterday by
0:17:22 > 0:17:26somebody suggesting they will ask for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to
0:17:26 > 0:17:31be suspended. That is as a result of putting the date on the bill.You
0:17:31 > 0:17:34did not agree with the Brexit committee and think it is important
0:17:34 > 0:17:39that we set the date and time?I think it is perfectly reasonable to
0:17:39 > 0:17:44set the date and time and I think these negotiations fill the time
0:17:44 > 0:17:49available. The United States and Australia agreed a free trade deal
0:17:49 > 0:17:55between April 2003 and February 2004. These things don't need to be
0:17:55 > 0:17:58interm Knabl if both sides want to agree. I think the British
0:17:58 > 0:18:04electorate would be very concerned if nearly three years after the vote
0:18:04 > 0:18:07to leave, we still hadn't left. I think most people expected that we
0:18:07 > 0:18:11would have left by now. The negotiations realistically to get
0:18:11 > 0:18:15through the approval of the European Parliament and so on need to be
0:18:15 > 0:18:20completed by at the end of next year, going up to the last minute I
0:18:20 > 0:18:24don't think is real is tick.To move on to talk about a trade deal and
0:18:24 > 0:18:31getting that done, the EU need to agree to move on and we need to
0:18:31 > 0:18:33settle the divorce, cabinet are going to be talking about the amount
0:18:33 > 0:18:40that needs to be spent on that, Stephen what manned, are you happy
0:18:40 > 0:18:44for the Government to offer more?I hope that the Government will stick
0:18:44 > 0:18:49to the Florence speech in terms of ensuring that we fulfil our
0:18:49 > 0:18:54liabilities and obligations. I'm not clear exactly whether that is 20
0:18:54 > 0:18:58billion or 40 billion and I'm not sure the government is. If part of
0:18:58 > 0:19:02the divorce bill is then some settlement for getting the trade
0:19:02 > 0:19:08deal, we will need to examine that carefully.Jacob Rees Mogg, is this
0:19:08 > 0:19:13that might spark another war in the party if the cabinet suggest they're
0:19:13 > 0:19:19prepared to pay more?I think we need to go back to what you said,
0:19:19 > 0:19:29that the - the EU said they want us to settle the money first. The
0:19:29 > 0:19:33Government doesn't need to follow that. They need our money. If we
0:19:33 > 0:19:41don't pay any money for the final 21 months of the framework, the EU has
0:19:41 > 0:19:46about 20 billion pounds gap in its finances and it has no legal
0:19:46 > 0:19:50requirement to borrow. So it insolvents or the Germans and the
0:19:50 > 0:19:54others pay more. So our position on money is very strong and we
0:19:54 > 0:19:59shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking just because Mr Barnier
0:19:59 > 0:20:04said it it is as if he has received tablets of stone like Moses, he has
0:20:04 > 0:20:13not.There is a sense that the Government feels a mo generous offer
0:20:13 > 0:20:17would set a good tone, the kind of approach that Jacob Rees Mogg
0:20:17 > 0:20:22suggests would not make for smooth relations.It probably wouldn't. But
0:20:22 > 0:20:27we have to be clear what we are paying for and what we are getting.
0:20:27 > 0:20:33No one is suggesting we should hand over money without proper scrutiny.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38It may be appropriate to put money to facilitate international trade to
0:20:38 > 0:20:42secure jobs. We have to be careful about the analysis about what the
0:20:42 > 0:20:48scale and size of Brexit dividend is and the size of payments will be.
0:20:48 > 0:20:55You mustn't confuse gross and net and there is disagreement about some
0:20:55 > 0:21:01of the numbers.On that, Jacob Rees Mogg in his budget for Brexit
0:21:01 > 0:21:06suggests in five years time we would have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do
0:21:06 > 0:21:13you think it is real is tick.He is using some analysis that has some
0:21:13 > 0:21:20flaws. It is predicting a price drop in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff
0:21:20 > 0:21:27drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is predicting huge productivity gains,
0:21:27 > 0:21:32the likes of which we have not seen in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his
0:21:32 > 0:21:37view on modellers there is evidence that they weren't and if you go into
0:21:37 > 0:21:44the detail of the analysis, some of the data is 14 years out of date.
0:21:44 > 0:21:49Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being hopelessly optimistic?I don't think
0:21:49 > 0:21:54that right. I think the fall in prices comes because you make the
0:21:54 > 0:21:58economy more competitive and you take away tariffs which reduces the
0:21:58 > 0:22:05price of food by 20%. That is a big reduction. Bear in mind that the
0:22:05 > 0:22:09biggest tariffs hit food, clothing and foot wear that, harm the poorest
0:22:09 > 0:22:16in society the most. The gains from productivity come from is in
0:22:16 > 0:22:24additional tariffs. Leading to other saving and further investment I
0:22:24 > 0:22:27think the modelling done by the professor is as good as modelling
0:22:27 > 0:22:34can be. That doesn't mean it is infallible. The failure of gravity
0:22:34 > 0:22:41model is well known.Michael Gove was accused of auditioning for the
0:22:41 > 0:22:47job of Chancellor by using long words. Do you know any good long
0:22:47 > 0:22:51economic words?I don't think that we want to get into this type of
0:22:51 > 0:22:55business actually. I think all Conservatives and Steven and I very
0:22:55 > 0:23:01much agree on this, want to show as united a front as we can manage.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05There are differences on some aspects of policy, but in terms of
0:23:05 > 0:23:07individuals we want to stand together and support the best
0:23:07 > 0:23:13interests of the government.Thank you.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Brexit Secretary David Davis was in Berlin this week trying
0:23:15 > 0:23:18to win the support of business leaders there for a comprehensive
0:23:18 > 0:23:20free trade deal with the EU.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23He warned them against putting 'politics above prosperity'
0:23:23 > 0:23:27and reportedly got a bit of a frosty reception.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Well, the former Labour MP Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders
0:23:30 > 0:23:32of the Vote Leave referendum campaign.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34We travelled with Gisela to Germany to meet the business leaders
0:23:34 > 0:23:37she says will help secure a good trade deal for the UK.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41Here's her film.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50I was born and brought up in this part of Germany,
0:23:50 > 0:23:53and although I've lived in the UK for the past 40 years,
0:23:53 > 0:23:58and represented the constituency of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20
0:23:58 > 0:24:02years, my family still live here, and I've kept many links.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08I was chair of Vote Leave, and together with only a handful
0:24:08 > 0:24:11of other Labour MPs, we campaigned to leave
0:24:11 > 0:24:13the European Union because we thought the country would be
0:24:13 > 0:24:15better off outside.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18It's hard to remember now, but back in the 1970s, when we joined
0:24:18 > 0:24:22the European Economic Community, people thought that by joining
0:24:22 > 0:24:27the club we would see the kind of economic miracle Germany
0:24:27 > 0:24:29experienced in the '70s back home.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder" would come to Britain.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36But, of course, it didn't.
0:24:36 > 0:24:36But, of course, it didn't.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Within a few short years of the devastation of World War II,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Germany had emerged as the largest economy in Europe.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Germany's extraordinary success is down to
0:24:46 > 0:24:50the pragmatism of its business.
0:24:50 > 0:24:55German Mittelstand is family dominated, forward-thinking,
0:24:55 > 0:25:01long-term thinking, reliability, are very important values.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04Changing moods on a political landscape and changing frameworks
0:25:04 > 0:25:06are toxic for our way of doing business, and we want
0:25:06 > 0:25:12that to go away.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14that to go away.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18German business is not given to making big political statements
0:25:18 > 0:25:21out of step with government policy, but talk to those in decision-making
0:25:21 > 0:25:24positions, and it is clear that they want to secure a good deal
0:25:24 > 0:25:27with the United Kingdom.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30BMW employs almost 90,000 people here in Germany,
0:25:30 > 0:25:34and exports just under 1 million cars annually.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39The UK is a vital market.
0:25:39 > 0:25:43What we are really seeking right now is more clarity, more certainty,
0:25:43 > 0:25:48because in our cycle of investment, cycle of development,
0:25:48 > 0:25:52it's about a seven-year or so period that we look at,
0:25:52 > 0:25:56but we are now, of course, starting to think about what comes next,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59and what we need to see now is what is going to be
0:25:59 > 0:26:02the trading relationship, how are the logistics going to look,
0:26:02 > 0:26:04what is going to be the requirements for people
0:26:04 > 0:26:07moving across the continent?
0:26:07 > 0:26:09Because all of these things are important to us today.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13And, by the way, they will be just as important tomorrow.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Berlin is well aware that if the European Commission
0:26:15 > 0:26:19is allowed to put up trade barriers against Britain, it will be
0:26:19 > 0:26:21German business, German consumers and German employees
0:26:21 > 0:26:25who will suffer.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28TRANSLATION:I think it's very important that we complete
0:26:28 > 0:26:30the first phase successfully.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33The first phase of the negotiations, which looks at the financial
0:26:33 > 0:26:36consequences of Great Britain leaving the EU.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39And then it's not a question of punishment payments.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42It's about when you are part of a multilayer, contractual
0:26:42 > 0:26:45obligation and you want to leave that, then of course it takes
0:26:45 > 0:26:48a whole lot of obligations which you have to deal with,
0:26:48 > 0:26:57so both sides are satisfied and can live with the consequences.
0:26:57 > 0:27:02It isn't everyone's interests for the UK to part on good terms.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05Of course there was going to be upset when the UK voted to leave,
0:27:05 > 0:27:09but creating uncertainty over the terms of UK's exit will simply
0:27:09 > 0:27:14have a disruptive effect on exports to UK markets.
0:27:14 > 0:27:17Far better to have a sensible, amicable negotiation that results
0:27:17 > 0:27:20both sides being able to trade together and work
0:27:20 > 0:27:24together post-Brexit.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26together post-Brexit.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28Markus Krall is managing director of Goetzpartners,
0:27:28 > 0:27:30and heads the Financial Institution Industry Group.
0:27:30 > 0:27:35Is it true to say that, if we negotiate Brexit well,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37then a good Brexit can actually strengthen the United Kingdom,
0:27:37 > 0:27:38the European Union and Germany?
0:27:38 > 0:27:41It's absolutely true.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44I think that this is about two things.
0:27:44 > 0:27:49One, about proving that free trade is possible
0:27:49 > 0:27:52between a European Union that is smaller and a former member country.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55If you don't prove that free trade is possible there,
0:27:55 > 0:27:59then the question becomes, what is Europe standing for?
0:27:59 > 0:28:04Number two is, I also believe the free trade,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08free market and democratic and less bureaucratic approach that Britain
0:28:08 > 0:28:11has chosen as the path into the future is a role
0:28:11 > 0:28:14model for Europe.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17The time has come both for the United Kingdom
0:28:17 > 0:28:19and for the EU to be more clear about what kind of
0:28:19 > 0:28:22deal we can achieve.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24Both sides need to be bold.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27As long as we remain open to free trade and sensible co-operation,
0:28:27 > 0:28:32we can arrive at something that will benefit both sides.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36But one thing's obvious - if we are an open and free trading
0:28:36 > 0:28:38economy, we've got one big cheerleader on our side,
0:28:38 > 0:28:43and that is German business.
0:28:43 > 0:28:44and that is German business.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46That was Gisela Stuart setting out her case
0:28:46 > 0:28:48and we'll be hearing from the opposite side
0:28:48 > 0:28:50of the argument in the coming weeks.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio now, as does Alastair Campbell.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56He used to work for Tony Blair in Number 10, set up
0:28:56 > 0:28:57the New European Newspaper to campaign against Brexit,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00and is so pro-European that at this year's Labour conference
0:29:00 > 0:29:02he was heard playing Ode to Joy on the bagpipes.
0:29:02 > 0:29:07Welcome both of you.
0:29:07 > 0:29:07Welcome both of you.
0:29:07 > 0:29:12We will start with your point in the film, that you think the German
0:29:12 > 0:29:17business once the EU to offer the UK a generous deal because it is in
0:29:17 > 0:29:21their interests, yet the president of the German equivalent of the CBI
0:29:21 > 0:29:26said that defending the single market must be the priority for the
0:29:26 > 0:29:32EU, and another says that the cohesion of the remaining member
0:29:32 > 0:29:38states remains the highest priority. The president of the CBI just after
0:29:38 > 0:29:43the referendum said that it would be in nobody 's interest to introduce
0:29:43 > 0:29:51tariffs and trade barriers. On the UK side, I don't think there's a
0:29:51 > 0:29:55full understanding that economic interests are incredibly important,
0:29:55 > 0:30:02that they are trying to cover economic interests on the cohesion
0:30:02 > 0:30:06of the 27. I think different economic interests will raise the
0:30:06 > 0:30:14head of different countries. The German auto industry is as important
0:30:14 > 0:30:20as the financial sector is here. The banking crisis is far from over, but
0:30:20 > 0:30:26the big riffs which were going on is that the E U is losing its second
0:30:26 > 0:30:30biggest net contributor. Countries like Germany want a deal with the UK
0:30:30 > 0:30:37that is a free open market. There are other tensions in the EU that
0:30:37 > 0:30:41wants to become more protectionist, and that is a bad thing.Looking at
0:30:41 > 0:30:49the film there with the Jacob Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what
0:30:49 > 0:30:54side of leave you are, it is delusional and all driven by wishful
0:30:54 > 0:30:58thinking. You could find a businessman who says Brexit will be
0:30:58 > 0:31:02good for Germany. The vast bulk of British businesses think this is a
0:31:02 > 0:31:07disaster, as do the vast bulk of European businesses. One of the
0:31:07 > 0:31:11delusions on which they ran their campaign is the idea that they need
0:31:11 > 0:31:18us more than we need them. That is not true.Be you self about £80
0:31:18 > 0:31:23billion more in goods and services into the UK than we do to them, and
0:31:23 > 0:31:27Germany has one of the biggest deficits. It is in their interest.
0:31:27 > 0:31:33Of course it is, but it is a myth that they need us more than we need
0:31:33 > 0:31:39them. The damage that will be done to us, even with a good deal. Let's
0:31:39 > 0:31:45be frank, where these negotiations are, Theresa May is either going to
0:31:45 > 0:31:52end up with a bad deal and dumber or no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no
0:31:52 > 0:31:59deal is a catastrophe.You are setting up ideas that which were not
0:31:59 > 0:32:06there to begin with and knocking them down. Delusional.35 billion,
0:32:06 > 0:32:11the Brexit bonus.If we had a referendum, it was a democratic
0:32:11 > 0:32:14decision. I know you don't like it and that a lot of business would
0:32:14 > 0:32:19have preferred to stay with the status quo. We have had the
0:32:19 > 0:32:24referendum. Undermining political institutions is in no one's
0:32:24 > 0:32:30interests. It is functioning democracies which lead to economic
0:32:30 > 0:32:37stability.Theresa May fought an election Inc on a hard Brexit that
0:32:37 > 0:32:50was rejected.As we heard from BMW, there is uncertainty for business.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55There will be elections, European elections, in 2019. There will be a
0:32:55 > 0:33:00change of the Commission and the parliament. We have a narrow window
0:33:00 > 0:33:04to implement the mandate for the referendum which Parliament voted
0:33:04 > 0:33:11for. So rather than you undermining this country, why don't you work
0:33:11 > 0:33:15together to get the best deal? Because we totally disagree.You
0:33:15 > 0:33:21don't want a good deal?I'm in favour of a good deal, and I could
0:33:21 > 0:33:27give them some advice as to how they get a good deal. First, you have a
0:33:27 > 0:33:33cabinet that has an agreed strategy. 18 months in, they don't have that.
0:33:33 > 0:33:38I am not undermining a deal. I am continuing to pose questions about
0:33:38 > 0:33:44what they are trying to do and how they are trying to do it. This is
0:33:44 > 0:33:49democracy. Democracy is the ability for Parliament, which is not doing
0:33:49 > 0:33:53its job properly, and the public, to keep scrutinising, and if they want
0:33:53 > 0:34:00to change their mind, having the right to do that.You were trying to
0:34:00 > 0:34:04encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to play hardball with the UK.I am on
0:34:04 > 0:34:10the side of the UK, and I am worried that if we go down the path that we
0:34:10 > 0:34:14are being taken down, and Theresa May and Boris Johnson and the rest
0:34:14 > 0:34:19of them, this shambolic path, we are going to do fundamental, lasting
0:34:19 > 0:34:24damage to the country we love. I don't care about the Civil Aviation
0:34:24 > 0:34:30Authority. I care about Britain. -- I don't care about the European
0:34:30 > 0:34:38Union. If every lorry going into the UK today was stopped for just two
0:34:38 > 0:34:44minutes, we would create an instant 17 mile traffic jam. These people
0:34:44 > 0:34:54just don't care...I am not these people! Let us not conflate... You
0:34:54 > 0:34:58either decide that you are implementing a democratic decision
0:34:58 > 0:35:04of a referendum that was called and over 17 million voted.You will not
0:35:04 > 0:35:12stop me debating it. Just as Nigel Farage...Stop talking about Nigel
0:35:12 > 0:35:23Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not Nigel Farage. There is no desire in
0:35:23 > 0:35:28Germany to punish the United Kingdom.They are behaving
0:35:28 > 0:35:33reasonably.There is a battle of protectionism and free market going
0:35:33 > 0:35:38on. If we implement this properly, give businesses the kind of
0:35:38 > 0:35:45incentives they want, we can get a good deal. So you want a bad deal?
0:35:45 > 0:35:51You are driven by wishful thinking. Gisela Stuart, you are saying that
0:35:51 > 0:35:55business will intervene to prevent things like tariffs being put in
0:35:55 > 0:36:00place? They are leaving it a bit late to put pressure on.You will
0:36:00 > 0:36:03find that business is laying out the kind of things they need to get
0:36:03 > 0:36:08those deals. I can find as much fault with the speed of the
0:36:08 > 0:36:13progress, but what I really do resent is that you are actually
0:36:13 > 0:36:21encouraging other countries to undermine...Know I am not! I spoke
0:36:21 > 0:36:25out in support of the Irish Taoiseach because I spent a lot of
0:36:25 > 0:36:28time with Tony Blair and his team on the Good Friday Agreement. The
0:36:28 > 0:36:32people who are driving this hard Brexit without thinking it through,
0:36:32 > 0:36:38still no answer on how you do Brexit in our island without a hard border.
0:36:38 > 0:36:46I think the Irish Taoiseach is right to call out the government on the
0:36:46 > 0:36:50incompetence and the fact they have not thought it through.You accept
0:36:50 > 0:36:56the result of the referendum and the fact that we will be leaving the EU?
0:36:56 > 0:37:01I accept the result of the referendum, but I do not accept that
0:37:01 > 0:37:05the country will definitely leave, because the country is entitled to
0:37:05 > 0:37:10change its mind. As the chaos and costs mount, the public is entitled
0:37:10 > 0:37:16to change its mind and will change its mind.There is no evidence at
0:37:16 > 0:37:24the moment.Come out with me!Allow me to finish the sentence. There is
0:37:24 > 0:37:30a changing of mind happening, a crystallisation. Unlike you, I have
0:37:30 > 0:37:36fought five elections and I have won five elections. I have probably
0:37:36 > 0:37:41spoken to more people like you.You may do, I'm just saying, come out on
0:37:41 > 0:37:47the road with me...40% of the population in the middle just want
0:37:47 > 0:37:53us to get on with it. What that film showed is that if you want to make
0:37:53 > 0:37:59it a self-fulfilling prophecy that it's a disaster, which I don't. I
0:37:59 > 0:38:04want to implement a deal that is good for British jobs. The rest of
0:38:04 > 0:38:12the world is changing in terms of technology. Currently, Germany
0:38:12 > 0:38:17hasn't even got a government, and nobody is laughing about that.And
0:38:17 > 0:38:20they are stable without a government!Let's leave it there.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33In a few minutes, Michael Sheen gives us his take on how Wales
0:38:33 > 0:38:36is run and how he thinks it could be better.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39He tells us whether a career as a professional politician
0:38:39 > 0:38:42is on the cards.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45But first, it's been an astonishing week in Welsh
0:38:45 > 0:38:48politics, with claims of a toxic culture within Carwyn Jones'
0:38:48 > 0:38:50government in the past.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Issues were dealt with at the time, says the First Minister,
0:38:53 > 0:38:56but that's not quite what he said at the time.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59And what about the important matter of how women are treated
0:38:59 > 0:39:02in politics in Wales?
0:39:02 > 0:39:05The Chair of the Assembly's Standards Committee has warned that
0:39:05 > 0:39:07far from being any kind of instant solution, it will "take
0:39:07 > 0:39:10time" to address issues of inappropriate behaviour.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12Jayne Bryant also told this programme it's "important
0:39:12 > 0:39:15to get this right".
0:39:15 > 0:39:18In a moment, we'll be asking two AMs where we go from here.
0:39:18 > 0:39:24First, Cemlyn Davies has this report.
0:39:24 > 0:39:30As accusations of bullying dominate its discussions in the Assembly, it
0:39:30 > 0:39:34was perhaps ironic that this anti-bullying exhibition should be
0:39:34 > 0:39:39on display in the Senedd this week. The First Minister has faced tough
0:39:39 > 0:39:43questions about the culture within his administration after former
0:39:43 > 0:39:47senior government collects spoke of the toxic poisonous atmosphere they
0:39:47 > 0:39:54say existed back in 2014. Others who were part of carbon Jones's Cabinet
0:39:54 > 0:39:59at the time have dismissed the claims. At one woman who is not
0:39:59 > 0:40:05surprised by the allegations is this woman. She was a Labour councillor
0:40:05 > 0:40:11in Cardiff but resigned in 2014, just two years after being elected.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15It plays on my mind and had a big factor in me becoming disillusioned
0:40:15 > 0:40:21with politics, I don't want to go on to the specific details, but the
0:40:21 > 0:40:27outcome of that incident was I locked myself in my office in County
0:40:27 > 0:40:30Hall and that the store remained locked for the rest of the day.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Siobhan told me that the incident related to intimidation and she was
0:40:35 > 0:40:39unhappy at the way Welsh Lib. But are concerned at the time.Would you
0:40:39 > 0:40:44say you were bullied? There was a culture of bullying. It can be
0:40:44 > 0:40:49subtle, it doesn't have to be a big stand-off between two people. A lot
0:40:49 > 0:40:54of the time it can go unnoticed by the person doing the bullying and
0:40:54 > 0:40:57the victim, that is why it is so difficult to accept the back culture
0:40:57 > 0:41:02is happening.In a statement, Welsh Labour claims.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24The recent allegations of sexual harassment and bullying have raised
0:41:24 > 0:41:30difficult questions about the way we do politics in Wales and on
0:41:30 > 0:41:33Wednesday the Presiding Officer met with the chair of the Assembly's
0:41:33 > 0:41:37standards committee and the party leaders to discuss what needs to be
0:41:37 > 0:41:42done. They agreed to develop our respect and dignity policy which
0:41:42 > 0:41:45will spell out clearly that inappropriate behaviour has no place
0:41:45 > 0:41:55here.It is really, really important that we create an environment, a
0:41:55 > 0:41:59safe environment for everybody who works here and I'm keen that we do
0:41:59 > 0:42:03we can to make sure that it is as clear and fair as possible.Is it a
0:42:03 > 0:42:09cultural thing within the Assembly, within politics, and is it something
0:42:09 > 0:42:13that can be addressed quickly or will it take a long time to address?
0:42:13 > 0:42:19With some issues it is cultural, not just in politics but throughout her
0:42:19 > 0:42:24society, and I think that will take time. What I would say about
0:42:24 > 0:42:28anything that we do as a standards committee it is really important we
0:42:28 > 0:42:32get this right. But we can control and the structures that we can
0:42:32 > 0:42:36control, we need to take the time to make sure we get this right because
0:42:36 > 0:42:41we owe it to everybody involved that we do.HR experts agree that a joint
0:42:41 > 0:42:46approach is the way forward.There needs to be something that is
0:42:46 > 0:42:49cross-party, that there is a standard amount across all parties
0:42:49 > 0:42:56that people can be held accountable to. Making sure that they have the
0:42:56 > 0:43:01right levels of the HR support and training the people in people
0:43:01 > 0:43:05management positions, leadership positions, so they understand their
0:43:05 > 0:43:09responsibilities in taking this issue seriously.There is a
0:43:09 > 0:43:13recognition in Cardiff Bay that more must be done to support staff, but
0:43:13 > 0:43:16what impact have the recent allegations here and in Westminster
0:43:16 > 0:43:20had done young people like the students who are considering a
0:43:20 > 0:43:26career in the field?We have to wake up and make the decision, I engaged
0:43:26 > 0:43:30enough and passionate enough about this? Will go into an industry that
0:43:30 > 0:43:36I know it is likely that this will happen, it is possible?Now that the
0:43:36 > 0:43:42cases are coming out now, it is a lesson to me on what to do if I come
0:43:42 > 0:43:46into that situation.We should take the positive from it and hope that
0:43:46 > 0:43:50the next system will be better than the one that comes before it.
0:43:50 > 0:43:56Personally, I think it makes me and others considering going into
0:43:56 > 0:44:00politics to get into politics, so that if we get into politics in the
0:44:00 > 0:44:04future we are a new generation I can do things better.Have you misled
0:44:04 > 0:44:13the Assembly, First Minister? Absolutely not. Back in the here and
0:44:13 > 0:44:16now, after allegations that Carwyn Jones might have misled the Assembly
0:44:16 > 0:44:23over possible bullying in the past, the calls for greater scrutiny into
0:44:23 > 0:44:27his actions have only increased the pressure on the First Minister.
0:44:27 > 0:44:29We should point out that we asked the First Minister
0:44:29 > 0:44:32to come on the programme, but were told he wasn't available.
0:44:32 > 0:44:34A further request to interview any minister
0:44:34 > 0:44:35from the Welsh Government was also declined.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37However, we're delighted to welcome the Labour
0:44:37 > 0:44:39AM for Swansea East, Mike Hedges, and the Plaid Cymru
0:44:39 > 0:44:44AM Simon Thomas, who's in our studio in Aberystwyth.
0:44:44 > 0:44:55Thank you both. Just looking, there is so much to talk about, but just
0:44:55 > 0:45:01looking at the week that Carwyn Jones has had, in terms of the
0:45:01 > 0:45:06claims about the toxic culture of bullying, undermining in the past in
0:45:06 > 0:45:11the Welsh Government, what do you make of those claims?I am
0:45:11 > 0:45:16surprised. I am surprised if people knew this three years ago nothing
0:45:16 > 0:45:20was done. If you have a complaint then you can go to the permanent
0:45:20 > 0:45:24Secretary, you can go to the First Minister. Also, the Labour Party has
0:45:24 > 0:45:32its own rules over bullying. The Labour Party will take action
0:45:32 > 0:45:38against members to stop bullying. Some form of report was written but
0:45:38 > 0:45:44never shown to anyone. If we take Leighton Andrews at its word for
0:45:44 > 0:45:47that, does it surprise you that nothing would have been done about
0:45:47 > 0:45:52it?At that stage Leighton Andrews did not go to the Labour Party and
0:45:52 > 0:45:58say that there was bullying going on, I have taken it up at the First
0:45:58 > 0:46:04Minister, I am unhappy with his response on it enquiry. We all work
0:46:04 > 0:46:09under Labour Party rules.When you hear this kind of thing coming out
0:46:09 > 0:46:14now, I was talking to an MP last week he said that old vendettas are
0:46:14 > 0:46:17being settled here, and that has been strongly denied by Leighton
0:46:17 > 0:46:23Andrews, but what is your view on why this is coming out now?The last
0:46:23 > 0:46:26conversation I had with Leighton Andrews he told me I wasn't
0:46:26 > 0:46:33supportive enough of the First Minister! If you put ten people in a
0:46:33 > 0:46:37room there will be quarrelling taking place. If they are all
0:46:37 > 0:46:41competing for advancement and there will be more competition amongst
0:46:41 > 0:46:46them. Having said that, if people are being bullied they have a route
0:46:46 > 0:46:50to take. They can go to the First Minister, the permanent Secretary,
0:46:50 > 0:46:55or they could go to the Labour Party nationally and complain about it and
0:46:55 > 0:46:59the Labour Party will engage in enquiry.I was watching the
0:46:59 > 0:47:03statements about this in the chamber and some of your colleagues in the
0:47:03 > 0:47:08Labour group were seriously unhappy when they were hearing what Carwyn
0:47:08 > 0:47:13Jones was saying. What is truly put the colleagues?I have not heard
0:47:13 > 0:47:18anybody say anything about it. The great success for some of them is to
0:47:18 > 0:47:23be able to talk about crying at the moment, there is a huge upset over
0:47:23 > 0:47:29the loss of Carl Sargeant. He was loosely liked across the chamber who
0:47:29 > 0:47:35was locked in the Labour group. It is absolutely true in this case. He
0:47:35 > 0:47:39always had time for people. He wasn't one of those people who when
0:47:39 > 0:47:46they walk down the corridor examined the floor so people wouldn't talk to
0:47:46 > 0:47:50him. He always had time for everybody and people are really
0:47:50 > 0:47:55upset. I don't think people have moved on that's next stage yet, they
0:47:55 > 0:48:01are still in the grieving stage.On the things that we have been hearing
0:48:01 > 0:48:07in the Senedd this week over what Carwyn Jones might have said back in
0:48:07 > 0:48:112014. He said on Tuesday that issues have been addressed at the time,
0:48:11 > 0:48:15although in 2014 he said no accusations have been made. That has
0:48:15 > 0:48:21led to some of your colleagues, but mainly the Conservatives, has Carwyn
0:48:21 > 0:48:27Jones misled the Assembly.The two statements are incompatible with
0:48:27 > 0:48:32each other and needs to be an estimation of the nature of the
0:48:32 > 0:48:35allegations back in 2014 and how they were dealt with at the time.
0:48:35 > 0:48:40Most of us assume that the allegations referred to are the ones
0:48:40 > 0:48:44that Leighton Andrews and Steve Jones have referred to publicly.
0:48:44 > 0:48:49There is a body of evidence that something happened in 2014 that was
0:48:49 > 0:48:52directed to the First Minister, but he did something about it but we
0:48:52 > 0:48:57don't know what, but he denied it at the time. Because he denied it at
0:48:57 > 0:49:01the time other people perhaps being bullied would not have felt
0:49:01 > 0:49:04confident and coming forward. That is the problem with the culture that
0:49:04 > 0:49:09then gets colder bullying culture. Is not that there aren't avenues to
0:49:09 > 0:49:12bring things forward, it is difficult to do so in a context
0:49:12 > 0:49:17where many of us in politics regard colleagues as part of our extended
0:49:17 > 0:49:21family in and that is not per nothing that we talk about the
0:49:21 > 0:49:25Labour family or the Plaid Cymru family.A spokesman for Carwyn Jones
0:49:25 > 0:49:30has said it was something similar to bullying, not bullying that was
0:49:30 > 0:49:36being discussed at the time. Is the wording here very important or more
0:49:36 > 0:49:40is at the spirit of the thing that is important?I think we should
0:49:40 > 0:49:43focus on the spirit of the thing and the culture that allows people to
0:49:43 > 0:49:52speak openly and honestly. When they hear wording like that, AM as a very
0:49:52 > 0:49:55experienced lawyer, he is experienced in dancing on the head
0:49:55 > 0:49:59of a pin around precise use of wording, and I don't think that is
0:49:59 > 0:50:04sufficient any more to address the serious problems.The Conservatives
0:50:04 > 0:50:08have asked for a special enquiry, is that that anything you would be
0:50:08 > 0:50:13supporting?I am open minded as to how we go forward.They worked your
0:50:13 > 0:50:21support on that.Would you support but they are calling for? You have
0:50:21 > 0:50:27put your finger on the problem. It is not just the opposition that can
0:50:27 > 0:50:32demand this, Labour have to have for this. I have not discussed that with
0:50:32 > 0:50:37my colleagues but am sure we will only return to the Assembly on
0:50:37 > 0:50:41Tuesday, but I think it is important that we have an independent
0:50:41 > 0:50:45adjudicator of the ministerial code. The problem at the moment is any
0:50:45 > 0:50:49complaint made about the First Minister is decided by the First
0:50:49 > 0:50:52Minister. By clearly is not robust enough nor does it give confidence
0:50:52 > 0:50:59in the system where complaints are taken seriously. The two aspects
0:50:59 > 0:51:04need to be examined. I agree with the Conservatives that they need to
0:51:04 > 0:51:07be an assembly examination of what the First Minister has said and
0:51:07 > 0:51:12done, whether by committee or other proceedings, but we have the
0:51:12 > 0:51:17knowledge that there needs to be some sort of independent scrutiny of
0:51:17 > 0:51:22the First Minister does.The problem for Plaid Cymru, especially over
0:51:22 > 0:51:26talks of bullying, it has been eight months since a series of claims of
0:51:26 > 0:51:30bullying was made against at Plaid Cymru elected member yet here we are
0:51:30 > 0:51:36nearly nine months on and no kind of enquiry has taken place in Plaid
0:51:36 > 0:51:41Cymru. The accusation Jura levelling that Labour could be put to Plaid
0:51:41 > 0:51:52Cymru, couldn't they?Yes, and that member has been the site -- that
0:51:52 > 0:51:58member has been suspended. I don't know much about these allegations. I
0:51:58 > 0:52:00understand that the national executive considers these yesterday.
0:52:00 > 0:52:10I know that the need to pass a series of amendments, they are
0:52:10 > 0:52:15designed to have a robust procedure in place to deal with this. We find
0:52:15 > 0:52:17that we were wanting in Rome procedures, but it doesn't mean that
0:52:17 > 0:52:25the don't have at process in place to deal with this night.The death
0:52:25 > 0:52:28of Carl Sargeant has the run everything into turmoil, but in the
0:52:28 > 0:52:34week leading up to that there was talk about in Cardiff Bay about how
0:52:34 > 0:52:38women are treated in politics. Is there a concern that that has been
0:52:38 > 0:52:42overlooked, that has been forgotten and an important issue isn't being
0:52:42 > 0:52:46addressed?I dumping it has been forgotten. My female colleagues will
0:52:46 > 0:52:52make sure it will not be forgotten. If people are being treated badly,
0:52:52 > 0:52:56people are being sexually harassed, then that is a very serious thing to
0:52:56 > 0:53:02happen and we need action to take part in it. I don't spend time in
0:53:02 > 0:53:08the Assembly outside working hours. I live in Swansea, I'm in the race
0:53:08 > 0:53:13to get to my car to get home as soon as possible. Others like Simon who
0:53:13 > 0:53:20are in Cardiff on Monday to Thursday may well see things happening
0:53:20 > 0:53:27outside that I don't.The party leaders met with Elin Jones to look
0:53:27 > 0:53:31at how you go ahead with this and one of the things they were looking
0:53:31 > 0:53:36at is the penalties for AM when the act inappropriately. At the moment
0:53:36 > 0:53:41it is a slap on the wrist. Does that need to be strengthened, that maybe
0:53:41 > 0:53:47at AM be faced with suspension if it is proven they have acted
0:53:47 > 0:53:51inappropriately?Certainly. They should be suspended. It is
0:53:51 > 0:53:55unfortunately don't have a method by which we can remove them from the
0:53:55 > 0:54:01Assembly, depending on what people have done. Council, for example, if
0:54:01 > 0:54:05you get a six-month sentence, had a suspended or not suspended, you
0:54:05 > 0:54:11automatically lose your seat on the council. I would like to see exactly
0:54:11 > 0:54:15the same in the Assembly. Yes, they need century and reviewed to see
0:54:15 > 0:54:22people suspended and there are actions that people have done that
0:54:22 > 0:54:28have led to century went suspension would have been better.The
0:54:28 > 0:54:31Assembly's standards Commissioner will not be looking at the parties
0:54:31 > 0:54:37procedures when it comes to dealing with claims of harassment or
0:54:37 > 0:54:42inappropriate behaviour. Would you welcome some of the external coming
0:54:42 > 0:54:46in and looking at Plaid Cymru's rules and so on?Yes, I would
0:54:46 > 0:54:51welcome that. All parties need to remain independent, but I think
0:54:51 > 0:54:56afresh and independent light cast over the rules and regulations would
0:54:56 > 0:55:01be welcomed by any party that takes these issues seriously. I understand
0:55:01 > 0:55:06that Plaid Cymru has slipped for external people to come and look at
0:55:06 > 0:55:10our rules and regulations. I support Mike hedges when he just talked
0:55:10 > 0:55:15about the sanctions against misbehaving by assembly members. We
0:55:15 > 0:55:19had an assembly member a couple of terms ago who assaulted an ambulance
0:55:19 > 0:55:23worker but was allowed to remain in the Assembly. I think that was a
0:55:23 > 0:55:28time when we should have taken firmer action.Thank you both for
0:55:28 > 0:55:29your time this morning.
0:55:29 > 0:55:31Thank you both for your time this morning.
0:55:31 > 0:55:33He may be known to millions as one of the most
0:55:33 > 0:55:35talented actors around, but these days Michael Sheen
0:55:35 > 0:55:38is almost as well known for his forays into Welsh politics.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41This week he was in Merthyr at a lecture for the Learning
0:55:41 > 0:55:42and Work Institute, where he re-asked, "Who
0:55:42 > 0:55:44speaks for Wales?"
0:55:44 > 0:55:46It's obviously an important question in terms of the development
0:55:46 > 0:55:48of devolution and other issues, not least of all Brexit.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51So when I caught up with him before his talk, I began
0:55:51 > 0:56:00by asking him what points he was trying to make.
0:56:00 > 0:56:07The Raymond Williams lecture, and Raymond Williams's work, his
0:56:07 > 0:56:09Internat channel -- international reputation wasn't really based on
0:56:09 > 0:56:14what it will about whales, but specifically for this lecture I have
0:56:14 > 0:56:18been reading everything he did write about wheels and what he did write
0:56:18 > 0:56:23was incredibly influential. One of the pieces that he wrote in 1971 was
0:56:23 > 0:56:28called who speaks for Wales? I have taken that as my starting point.
0:56:28 > 0:56:32What I find so fascinating about reading his work is that the talked
0:56:32 > 0:56:36about how it is the past and the present relate to each other that is
0:56:36 > 0:56:41most telling about the culture. In looking at things like Welsh
0:56:41 > 0:56:46identity, Welsh history and politics now you have to go back to the past,
0:56:46 > 0:56:50you have to state within the context of the past and see how those two
0:56:50 > 0:56:55things come together.What elements of the past that you think most...
0:56:55 > 0:57:00Has that ability to ship where we are now?The work that I have been
0:57:00 > 0:57:04doing over the last few years wheels, visiting people, seeing
0:57:04 > 0:57:08projects going on in communities, talking to people in the Welsh
0:57:08 > 0:57:11Government and different organisations, I have got the
0:57:11 > 0:57:17opportunity because of my small amount of celebrity. I have an
0:57:17 > 0:57:20opportunity to meet lots of different types of people. One of
0:57:20 > 0:57:26the things I have come away with is a sense of infrastructure or an
0:57:26 > 0:57:31institutional framework that is a little bit delicate. It is not quite
0:57:31 > 0:57:36as developers could have been, not when you go to places like Scotland.
0:57:36 > 0:57:41In looking at why that is the case, all you have to do is start going
0:57:41 > 0:57:44back into history and you see that there have been moments of since the
0:57:44 > 0:57:49Roman invasion where the beginnings of something the beginnings of a
0:57:49 > 0:57:54nation state, or at least the first steps towards that, start to emerge
0:57:54 > 0:58:06time and time again and are stopped at a certain point. By the time you
0:58:06 > 0:58:12do get to Henry VIII and the acts of union something changes
0:58:12 > 0:58:20fundamentally there and Wales is a simulated into England's. For Wales,
0:58:20 > 0:58:29see England, that famous Encyclopaedia 1888 entry. So, there
0:58:29 > 0:58:35is a reason why there is a certain kind of difference between what we
0:58:35 > 0:58:41have in Wales now and what was in Scotland. Scotland had a monarchy,
0:58:41 > 0:58:44we didn't. Scotland had a parliament long before we have an assembly.
0:58:44 > 0:58:50There is an list -- an institutional framework that was not there, a
0:58:50 > 0:58:54history of that. When you look at things like the first time we have
0:58:54 > 0:59:02the referendum about assembly powers in 1979, 12% of our electorate voted
0:59:02 > 0:59:07to have that. It was a resounding refusal to start the process of
0:59:07 > 0:59:13having your own powers. Then you think, what changed between 1979 and
0:59:13 > 0:59:161997 estimate the Thatcher government, everything that happened
0:59:16 > 0:59:22in the South Wales valleys areas around heavy industry and seeing how
0:59:22 > 0:59:26vulnerable position the country could be in. Even then in 1997 it
0:59:26 > 0:59:31was less than 1%, just over half a percent difference. I find that
0:59:31 > 0:59:36fascinating. Looking Brexit, in terms of the history of the
0:59:36 > 0:59:41relationship between Wales and England, it is remarkable to me that
0:59:41 > 0:59:48when it comes to the Brexit vote, unlike Scotland or Northern Ireland,
0:59:48 > 0:59:53Wales voted in lockstep with England. I just find that
0:59:53 > 0:59:57fascinating, but given that tortuous relationship between the two
0:59:57 > 1:00:01countries and the dominance of the English culture on Wales, what is
1:00:01 > 1:00:08that all about? How did that happen? What is it all about, why did that
1:00:08 > 1:00:13happen?I think there are a number of reasons. Some of the things I
1:00:13 > 1:00:16explored within it is the idea that I never got off Welsh history at
1:00:16 > 1:00:23school. Everything I'm talking about in this lecture I discovered in the
1:00:23 > 1:00:27last few years, said Julie. I remember being in school and being
1:00:27 > 1:00:33told to write an essay that started you are a Roman soldier on patrol,
1:00:33 > 1:00:41what do you see? Now I think, I think, who cares, what about the
1:00:41 > 1:00:44Welsh people, what are they see? Bride-to-be look at it from our
1:00:44 > 1:00:50point of view. That disconnection from your past and understanding
1:00:50 > 1:00:56what is going on in context is really important. Most importantly
1:00:56 > 1:01:00is the fact that the opportunities for us as a nation, as people to
1:01:00 > 1:01:04talk to each other and have these conversations, argued there might
1:01:04 > 1:01:10still limited. A lot of our media comes from ancient. This programme
1:01:10 > 1:01:16is tagged on to a programme coming from England. All the fantastic
1:01:16 > 1:01:20work, and I love the work that you do, think it is amazing and I would
1:01:20 > 1:01:26love to see more of it, I would love to see more opportunities for these
1:01:26 > 1:01:31conversations, to be able to set it in the context of Welsh history and
1:01:31 > 1:01:35in the were we really are at the moment. There needs to be more of
1:01:35 > 1:01:42that. Local journalism has collapsed across Wales. In Port Talbot in 1970
1:01:42 > 1:01:46we had five newspapers with 11 reporters all based on offices, now
1:01:46 > 1:01:55we have none.The fragility of the institution to wheels, you'd think
1:01:55 > 1:01:58it is a lack of sense of self or Welsh people that is leading to
1:01:58 > 1:02:08that?We have had difficulty in reckoning with our past. Partly
1:02:08 > 1:02:12because of outside influences, the fact that Welsh media is a reserve
1:02:12 > 1:02:18power for Westminster. You could say there is at this interest in Welsh
1:02:18 > 1:02:22infrastructure comment from England, it seems like that at times, but
1:02:22 > 1:02:30also from within because we have the two main parties in Wales, Welsh
1:02:30 > 1:02:33Labour and Plaid Cymru, there is such a danger of overlap that the
1:02:33 > 1:02:38carving out a political space I think in some ways has led to a
1:02:38 > 1:02:46restriction in what the parameters of a corsage. Then, in order to have
1:02:46 > 1:02:50local communities engage in that, the opportunities for that have been
1:02:50 > 1:02:56so restricted. I'm not saying it has been on purpose, but in terms of the
1:02:56 > 1:02:59incentive to develop more inclusivity, more outreach, I'm not
1:02:59 > 1:03:06entirely sure what the incentive is there. Why would anyone be
1:03:06 > 1:03:09incentivised to develop local journalistic infrastructure, greater
1:03:09 > 1:03:14accountability for government, why would they be incentivised to
1:03:14 > 1:03:20develop that? And not saying it is conscious. You just look at the
1:03:20 > 1:03:24currents within Welsh culture at the moment and I think there is a
1:03:24 > 1:03:29certain star says going on that is maybe holding us back.The
1:03:29 > 1:03:35Conservatives would argue that they are the third main party in Wales, I
1:03:35 > 1:03:42should say. If you accept the point that you're making that there is
1:03:42 > 1:03:46asked that says a lack of stuff happening, how do you overcome that?
1:03:46 > 1:03:55Greater engagement. When I have gone to various public service delivers
1:03:55 > 1:03:59or anyone in authority since the Brexit referendum all key here is we
1:03:59 > 1:04:04must listen more, we have to listen, we haven't been listening properly.
1:04:04 > 1:04:09It is as if listening you can do just like that. You have to learn
1:04:09 > 1:04:15how to listen. It's not easy. Any time you go wild with an agenda
1:04:15 > 1:04:23apart from just listen everything you hear challenges your prejudices.
1:04:23 > 1:04:26To be able to listen and not be selective about what you hear, that
1:04:26 > 1:04:32is a challenge. To actually engage with the communities across fools
1:04:32 > 1:04:37who don't feel they have a stake in the Welsh theatre as it is. A lot of
1:04:37 > 1:04:41communities think that money and inclusivity doesn't get beyond
1:04:41 > 1:04:45Cardiff. Engaged to those communities, listen to people at the
1:04:45 > 1:04:49front line of serving the needs of communities, then developing
1:04:49 > 1:04:56policies through that. Back you said earlier on to modesty that you have
1:04:56 > 1:04:59a small amount of celebrity.To what end do you want to use that
1:04:59 > 1:05:06celebrity? You have spoken in the past about wanting to engage more
1:05:06 > 1:05:10politically. Is this part of you coming more into the political
1:05:10 > 1:05:16world? Yes, political but with a small p. Would it ever be with the
1:05:16 > 1:05:22big P questionable at ever be in Parliament?If I ever thought that
1:05:22 > 1:05:26they could be more affected by being in a political party in Wales than I
1:05:26 > 1:05:30would do it. At the moment I feel I can be most effective being outside
1:05:30 > 1:05:36of the political parties so that I have my own independence, my own
1:05:36 > 1:05:40financial independence. I have a media platform to a certain extent
1:05:40 > 1:05:44myself and I be able to move fairly freely within different worlds
1:05:44 > 1:05:51within wheels, bring people together that might normally not want to, at
1:05:51 > 1:05:54least you can get people in the room who would not normally have that
1:05:54 > 1:05:58conversation. I feel that is the way I can be most effective at the
1:05:58 > 1:06:06moment. It has been said that the purpose of power is to give it away.
1:06:06 > 1:06:11I'm starting to understand that now. So few people in Wales. They have a
1:06:11 > 1:06:16voice and I feel that the purpose of having a voice now is to allow other
1:06:16 > 1:06:21people to speak through it.Michael Sheen, thank you for your time.
1:06:21 > 1:06:23Michael Sheen, thank you for your time.
1:06:23 > 1:06:25While the current focus of Brexit is on the battle
1:06:25 > 1:06:27in the Commons over the Withdrawal Bill
1:06:27 > 1:06:30looking at how we leave the EU, what are our MEPs doing?
1:06:30 > 1:06:32What kind of issues are being raised with them when they're
1:06:32 > 1:06:34at the European Parliament in Brussels or Strasbourg?
1:06:34 > 1:06:36The Conservative MEP Dr Kay Swinburne
1:06:36 > 1:06:40is here with me now.
1:06:40 > 1:06:41is here with me now.
1:06:41 > 1:06:48Thank you for coming in. For a Conservative MEP he is very much
1:06:48 > 1:06:51prove remaining in the European Union, a lot of people might be
1:06:51 > 1:06:57asking, what is it that you do now? How is it for the British politician
1:06:57 > 1:07:05to in Brussels?It very much depends on what your wall was beforehand. My
1:07:05 > 1:07:10wall before the referendum was very much helping on financial services
1:07:10 > 1:07:16and Europe religion matters with regards to the legislation. So that
1:07:16 > 1:07:20continues. My day job continues as if nothing has happened. Not only
1:07:20 > 1:07:25have I got as much work as I had done previously, I have still got as
1:07:25 > 1:07:29many reports where I am leaving for the parliament on those pieces of
1:07:29 > 1:07:34legislation, even in financial services where there are some
1:07:34 > 1:07:39sensitivities about a British person taking the role.It is almost
1:07:39 > 1:07:42counterintuitive. As we approach Brexit, your colleagues in Brussels
1:07:42 > 1:07:48might be saying, well, we should be pushing them away, but they are
1:07:48 > 1:07:56joined in?Part of it is pragmatic. If you have the skills to do a
1:07:56 > 1:07:59certain job, they have always given that where they can within the
1:07:59 > 1:08:04political system to the people who can do the work. I have always been
1:08:04 > 1:08:08very grateful for the trust and confidence in me. It seems that has
1:08:08 > 1:08:12increased not diminished as a result. Some would say they are
1:08:12 > 1:08:20making the most of the British skill set while they have still got it.
1:08:20 > 1:08:24How did they view Brexit, is a despair, anger?I think they have
1:08:24 > 1:08:30moved on. It is almost as if it is the different stages of grief. They
1:08:30 > 1:08:35have come to terms with it and are now looking forward so much that
1:08:35 > 1:08:41they are planning their future as an EU 27 and are not spending much time
1:08:41 > 1:08:44discussing the Brexit negotiations because all of that at this stage is
1:08:44 > 1:08:49all about Article 50, about how we actually leave, and those
1:08:49 > 1:08:59discussions have been taken out to a team with a group of civil servants
1:08:59 > 1:09:03who have been hand selected to do these negotiations. All we are being
1:09:03 > 1:09:07axed to do on the Brexit side at the moment is to pass judgment on
1:09:07 > 1:09:11whether sufficient progress has been made by those civil servants in the
1:09:11 > 1:09:20discussions.It must be difficult for use striking a balance between
1:09:20 > 1:09:25writing reports for the remaining 27 countries on the one hand, but as
1:09:25 > 1:09:29unelected British politician wanting to get the best for the UK out of
1:09:29 > 1:09:34Brexit.Is it a tricky situation? It is pulling deep in some of those
1:09:34 > 1:09:41relationships you have built up over the last 89 years, in my case. Those
1:09:41 > 1:09:45relationships are quite strong, the network is deep, so I am trusted to
1:09:45 > 1:09:53do the work.But you are an elected UK politician trying to get the best
1:09:53 > 1:09:58from your constituents. As it that element that is tricky?I think they
1:09:58 > 1:10:03know that as a Conservative member I am involved in helping my
1:10:03 > 1:10:06Conservative Cabinet members, trying to work out what the solutions are
1:10:06 > 1:10:14after us leaving, but they also know that just as we were invoking
1:10:14 > 1:10:19Article 50, with the commentary at the time that they would like us to
1:10:19 > 1:10:24be the bridge between the two camps, to take the messaging back of the
1:10:24 > 1:10:28pragmatic solutions we think might work back to the heart of Cabinet,
1:10:28 > 1:10:33and therefore influence of their decisions.Talking to the UK Cabinet
1:10:33 > 1:10:36members, what is your view of how they are dealing with the Brexit
1:10:36 > 1:10:42negotiations? BCB splits, undermining and this that and the
1:10:42 > 1:10:47other. From Brussels, how do you see is the way this process is being
1:10:47 > 1:10:53handled by the UK Government?I have the benefit of seeing both sides.
1:10:53 > 1:10:57The way the EU is dealing with things is not always perfect, and
1:10:57 > 1:11:02the way my own government is dealing with this, which in some terms as a
1:11:02 > 1:11:09British way of dealing with things. It has always been the EU 28
1:11:09 > 1:11:13countries coming together to find a compromise, and there are special
1:11:13 > 1:11:16ways of negotiating bad. My colleagues have taken a little while
1:11:16 > 1:11:21to get into the spirit of what an EU the grittiest looks like.He is
1:11:21 > 1:11:27handling a better, the UK or the EU 27?They are now speaking the same
1:11:27 > 1:11:31language. There were occasions in the early months were there were
1:11:31 > 1:11:35maybe saying and agree on certain things, then going away and
1:11:35 > 1:11:39realising they were in different positions.Is that good enough? We
1:11:39 > 1:11:45hear that the clock is ticking. Only now are they speaking the same
1:11:45 > 1:11:49language. Will we run out of time before the negotiations need to be
1:11:49 > 1:11:54in place are in place?What we need to move on with quickly, and I hope
1:11:54 > 1:11:58this will happen in the next couple of weeks when we get into December
1:11:58 > 1:12:02and the next council meeting, is that there will be a green light for
1:12:02 > 1:12:06the next age of the negotiations, which look at the future
1:12:06 > 1:12:11relationship. It is difficult to negotiate your settlement with the
1:12:11 > 1:12:15EU unless you know what you are transitioning to and how you will
1:12:15 > 1:12:18transition because the sums of money involved will be very different if
1:12:18 > 1:12:23it is going to be a longer transition or a shorter transition.
1:12:23 > 1:12:28I think these are important messages that my colleagues in the EU 27 need
1:12:28 > 1:12:33to know where we want to get to as a final end result. I would hope that
1:12:33 > 1:12:39we start those discussions after that December council meeting.
1:12:39 > 1:12:44Should it be the longer transition period or a shorter transition
1:12:44 > 1:12:48period?For me, knowing how complicated some of the issues are
1:12:48 > 1:12:53and how we extricate ourselves from 40 years of legislation, it is not
1:12:53 > 1:12:57about the time but about the detail we need to go into to make sure that
1:12:57 > 1:13:03both sides have a workable solution when we do come out completely. That
1:13:03 > 1:13:07transition is not about extending our membership, it is solely about
1:13:07 > 1:13:12finding the right solutions for both parties during that period. If it
1:13:12 > 1:13:15takes two years, then fine, but if it takes longer we should be
1:13:15 > 1:13:19open-minded about it.Thank you for coming in this morning.
1:13:19 > 1:13:20Thank you for coming in this morning.
1:13:20 > 1:13:21That's it for another week.
1:13:21 > 1:13:25If you can't wait til next Sunday for your fix of Welsh politics,
1:13:25 > 1:13:27don't forget Wales Live on Wednesday night at 10.30pm,
1:13:27 > 1:13:28but for now that's all from me.
1:13:28 > 1:13:29Diolch am wylio.
1:13:29 > 1:13:30Thanks for watching.
1:13:30 > 1:13:32Hwyl fawr.