26/11/2017

0:00:36 > 0:00:38Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:38 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43And this is your essential briefing on everything that's

0:00:43 > 0:00:46happening this Sunday morning in the world of politics.

0:00:46 > 0:00:49Ireland says it will "continue to play tough until the end"

0:00:49 > 0:00:50over the Irish border.

0:00:50 > 0:00:52As Dublin threatens to derail Brexit trade

0:00:52 > 0:00:56talks, vice-president of the European Parliament Mairead

0:00:56 > 0:00:59McGuiness tells us why she thinks a hard border would cause havoc.

0:00:59 > 0:01:01Leading Brexiteer and former Northern Ireland Secretary Owen

0:01:01 > 0:01:06Paterson will debate with her live.

0:01:06 > 0:01:09It was billed as a make or break moment for the Chancellor -

0:01:09 > 0:01:11Phillip Hammond appears to have avoided an omni or even

0:01:11 > 0:01:12a mini-shambles.

0:01:12 > 0:01:15We'll get Budget reaction from the man who last month tried

0:01:15 > 0:01:26to topple Theresa May - former Tory Chairman, Grant Shapps.

0:01:26 > 0:01:28Later in the programme:

0:01:28 > 0:01:30As Carwyn Jones refers himself to an inquiry

0:01:30 > 0:01:32into bullying claims,

0:01:32 > 0:01:34the Welsh Government's Chief Legal Advisor

0:01:34 > 0:01:36and the leader of the Welsh Conservatives join us live.

0:01:44 > 0:01:47All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:47 > 0:01:50So, no omni-shambles Budget.

0:01:50 > 0:01:52But don't worry, if you're a fan of the shambolic you'll

0:01:52 > 0:01:54love our political panel, Sam Coates, Zoe Williams

0:01:54 > 0:01:56and Iain Martin.

0:01:56 > 0:01:58Welcome to the programme.

0:01:58 > 0:02:01It has been the Budget that's dominated the political week.

0:02:01 > 0:02:05There was no pasty tax or national insurance U-turn -

0:02:05 > 0:02:07but there were sharp downgrades for growth and productivity,

0:02:07 > 0:02:11offset by enough optimism to cheer the Tory benches.

0:02:16 > 0:02:23This week's Budget was billed as a make or break for Philip Hammond.

0:02:23 > 0:02:27insurance rise which lasted barely a week.

0:02:27 > 0:02:28Humiliated today, Chancellor?

0:02:28 > 0:02:31Will you resign?

0:02:33 > 0:02:35This time, his cheery demeanour was perhaps designed

0:02:35 > 0:02:38to confound his critics who think his outlook on Brexit

0:02:38 > 0:02:41is, well, miserable.

0:02:41 > 0:02:45What he's doing is very close to sabotage.

0:02:45 > 0:02:50Regrettably, our productivity performance continues to disappoint.

0:02:50 > 0:02:53But the downbeat tone wasn't down to Hammond,

0:02:53 > 0:02:58it was the independent Office for Budget Responsibility,

0:02:58 > 0:03:00the lower productivity projections lead to growth forecasts

0:03:00 > 0:03:02of less than 2%.

0:03:02 > 0:03:06Here's the new realistic forecast, average growth of just 1.4% a year.

0:03:06 > 0:03:10A slowdown that won't go away.

0:03:12 > 0:03:15The Chancellor may not have been able to drive up

0:03:15 > 0:03:18productivity and growth, but he has a cunning plan to remove

0:03:18 > 0:03:21the need to drive at all.

0:03:21 > 0:03:23David Cameron's old mate Jeremy Clarkson is reported to be

0:03:23 > 0:03:25less than impressed.

0:03:25 > 0:03:27Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like them.

0:03:27 > 0:03:31But there are many other good reasons to pursue this technology.

0:03:31 > 0:03:38So today we step up our support for it.

0:03:38 > 0:03:40Sorry, Jeremy, but definitely not the first time you've been

0:03:40 > 0:03:42snubbed by Hammond and May.

0:03:42 > 0:03:45More money for the English health service, a Brexit fund

0:03:45 > 0:03:46and abolishing stamp duty for first-time buyers

0:03:46 > 0:03:47lifted the mood.

0:03:47 > 0:03:51I commend this statement to the house.

0:03:57 > 0:04:00But senior figures in the NHS said the new money was not enough

0:04:00 > 0:04:03and less, in this Budget at least, than the amount pledged for Brexit,

0:04:03 > 0:04:05giving some Remainers plenty of fun on Twitter.

0:04:08 > 0:04:11It turned out the stamp duty changes would mainly help

0:04:11 > 0:04:14people selling a house, not buying them.

0:04:14 > 0:04:17Tweaks to the Universal Credit system soothed Tory concerns,

0:04:17 > 0:04:19but they didn't calm the Labour leader.

0:04:19 > 0:04:22Uncaring!

0:04:22 > 0:04:25The uncaring, uncooth attitude of certain members opposite!

0:04:26 > 0:04:28Order!

0:04:28 > 0:04:29Order!

0:04:30 > 0:04:34And his Shadow Chancellor had some number trouble.

0:04:34 > 0:04:38How much do we now spend on paying the interest of our national debt.

0:04:38 > 0:04:39A lot.

0:04:39 > 0:04:40How much?

0:04:40 > 0:04:41Well, I'll give you the figure.

0:04:41 > 0:04:43I'll send you a note on the figure.

0:04:43 > 0:04:44You don't know?

0:04:44 > 0:04:45I know the figure...

0:04:45 > 0:04:46How much?

0:04:46 > 0:04:48I'll send it.

0:04:48 > 0:04:50Well, you tell me now.

0:04:50 > 0:04:53The forecast may be sticky, but at least the Daily Mail

0:04:53 > 0:04:54had a positive outlook.

0:04:54 > 0:04:57Phil was no longer a miserable donkey.

0:04:57 > 0:05:00And by the end of the week, the Chancellor could still smile.

0:05:00 > 0:05:03He might even stay in Number 11 long enough to deliver

0:05:03 > 0:05:06next year's Budget.

0:05:08 > 0:05:10We're joined now by the former Conservative Party

0:05:10 > 0:05:14Chairman, Grant Shapps.

0:05:14 > 0:05:19Thank you very much for coming in. No banana skin in the Budget for

0:05:19 > 0:05:22Philip Hammond, but really dismal growth prospects. What is the

0:05:22 > 0:05:27government back to doing wrong? Well, first of all, he cheered up

0:05:27 > 0:05:30the backbenches by giving quite an upbeat assessment. The economy is

0:05:30 > 0:05:37still growing, the jobs factory of Europe. Not words we are used to

0:05:37 > 0:05:41hearing from Philip Hammond.But overall, growth prospects are really

0:05:41 > 0:05:48bad, they have been significantly downgraded.Of course, the really

0:05:48 > 0:05:51big story is the Office for Budget Responsibility say we are going to

0:05:51 > 0:05:55grow at 1.5%, not 2%. That is a real problem. I thought Philip's

0:05:55 > 0:05:58presentation of the issue was interesting. He said this is of the

0:05:58 > 0:06:02outside of our control, it is the office of Budget response ability.

0:06:02 > 0:06:06It is to do with productivity, who knows what that is made up of? That

0:06:06 > 0:06:10sort of excuses get mug from having to do anything. There are things we

0:06:10 > 0:06:14can do to attract business to this country. You have the tax base, the

0:06:14 > 0:06:19attitude towards business. We spent quite a while looking like we were

0:06:19 > 0:06:24not interested in business, business being thought of as bad. I am

0:06:24 > 0:06:28pleased to see that is changing.You think the few has a pro-business

0:06:28 > 0:06:32attitude that wasn't there a year ago?We have them locked out of

0:06:32 > 0:06:36Downing Street for a while, sector leaders could not express their

0:06:36 > 0:06:41concerns. Some conference speeches that business as the bad guys rather

0:06:41 > 0:06:46than job creators. That seems to have gone and I welcome it.Why?

0:06:46 > 0:06:49Because it is not realistic to believe that business is evil and

0:06:49 > 0:06:57bad. Business people that create the jobs for this country, the well for

0:06:57 > 0:06:58bad. Business people that create the this country...But why do you think

0:06:58 > 0:07:02the government but robust change the message on that?It is hard to know

0:07:02 > 0:07:08what created that. Since the election we have a change in

0:07:08 > 0:07:11emphasis. Business leaders are now welcomed to come and talk to the

0:07:11 > 0:07:14Prime Minister and the Chancellor about what is going on. One thing we

0:07:14 > 0:07:18could do now, we are leaving Europe, we had all of those red tape

0:07:18 > 0:07:21challenges in the Coalition Government but we always got stuck

0:07:21 > 0:07:24when it got to the EU. We had to say, we can't do anything about that

0:07:24 > 0:07:28red tape. We can now go back on that. I would like the cupboard to

0:07:28 > 0:07:31go further and not just accept figures from the Office for Budget

0:07:31 > 0:07:34Responsibility. I'm actually doubtful about that and I think that

0:07:34 > 0:07:41Philip Hammond is as well. Growth of productivity is a difficult thing to

0:07:41 > 0:07:47measure. This country trades more online than any other country in the

0:07:47 > 0:07:50world. We are top of that league table. That has to be a more

0:07:50 > 0:07:53efficient way to do business. Yet it does not seem to be reflected in

0:07:53 > 0:07:58productivity.They are forecasts, the productivity figures. But the

0:07:58 > 0:08:05middle, things could be worse, the OBR say. The... Seems to say these

0:08:05 > 0:08:09are the projections, we hope it isn't that. Is it the Buttler's job

0:08:09 > 0:08:16to do something about productivity? The government EU has a role to

0:08:16 > 0:08:21play. I started a printing business which still exists to this day.

0:08:21 > 0:08:25Uncertainty over Brexit could lead a business like that to delay

0:08:25 > 0:08:29purchasing a new press. One that is likely to be faster, less setup

0:08:29 > 0:08:33time, print stuff faster. Uncertainty in the economy slows

0:08:33 > 0:08:39that down. Of course the Government has a role. It cannot act the way it

0:08:39 > 0:08:45treats taxation, investment, it can encourage businesses. Actually, I

0:08:45 > 0:08:49suspect what the Office for Budget Responsibility has done is said, oh,

0:08:49 > 0:08:53all of this uncertainty has lead to slower productivity and therefore we

0:08:53 > 0:08:58will continue projecting forward, almost ad infinitum. The projections

0:08:58 > 0:09:03went up five years. If we can get the Brexit uncertainty out of the

0:09:03 > 0:09:07way...That is what I was about to say. The great uncertainty is under

0:09:07 > 0:09:11Brexit. We are not entering a period where things will be more certain

0:09:11 > 0:09:13people can confidently make investment decisions, nobody knows

0:09:13 > 0:09:18what the future trading relationship will be.I think Government can help

0:09:18 > 0:09:21with that. If you have a Government that, at its heart, fundamentally,

0:09:21 > 0:09:27is singing from the same hymn sheet, you saw Number 10 and Number 11,

0:09:27 > 0:09:37finally, a bit of banter between the two of them, the Chancellor and the

0:09:37 > 0:09:40Prime Minister, they went out on Thursday and did a visit together.

0:09:40 > 0:09:42You have a Cabinet meeting reported from Tuesday where they are agreeing

0:09:42 > 0:09:45how to go forward collectively on Europe. If you can have the central

0:09:45 > 0:09:47government working in unison, it gives business of evidence, it gives

0:09:47 > 0:09:50the economy confidence that maybe you can get to faster growth by

0:09:50 > 0:09:54having better productivity and more inward investment.Six weeks ago you

0:09:54 > 0:09:59were calling for the Prime Minister to stand down. You were outed as

0:09:59 > 0:10:04leading a coup against her. Have you changed your mind?I saw your

0:10:04 > 0:10:06lead-in, calling colleagues that want to go and speak to the Prime

0:10:06 > 0:10:11Minister about a perfectly sensible subject that she herself has asked

0:10:11 > 0:10:14for colleagues' opinions on, how long should I be in this role, to

0:10:14 > 0:10:18call it a plot is tabloid. The reality is, of course colleagues

0:10:18 > 0:10:22should be able to have that conversation. We do not live in

0:10:22 > 0:10:25North Korea. We shouldn't be not allowed to express views, nor do

0:10:25 > 0:10:28they disappear if you don't express them.You said your colleagues have

0:10:28 > 0:10:31buried their heads in the sand, hoping things would get better. It

0:10:31 > 0:10:37never got better for Gordon Brown or John Major, it will not get that for

0:10:37 > 0:10:41Theresa May. Have you changed your

0:10:41 > 0:10:42John Major, it will not get that for mindI think that colleagues should

0:10:42 > 0:10:47be allowed to have views and express them. My views have not changed.

0:10:47 > 0:10:51However, I also accept the reality of the situation, that we are in a

0:10:51 > 0:10:55very sensitive period with Brexit negotiations. Six weeks ago is six

0:10:55 > 0:11:01weeks ago. Time moves on and Brexit negotiations wait 101. What we have

0:11:01 > 0:11:05to do have is a Government that is capable of singing from the same

0:11:05 > 0:11:14hymn sheet, going to Brussels. If you have Number 10 and Number 11 at

0:11:14 > 0:11:17each other's throats, when you have people been briefed against the

0:11:17 > 0:11:23centre, whips that are more

0:11:23 > 0:11:24people been briefed against the interested in... We have mutineers

0:11:24 > 0:11:27on the front of the Telegraph, 50 people that wanted not to have the

0:11:27 > 0:11:31date for Brexit in the bill. I don't happen to agree with those people.

0:11:31 > 0:11:36But to have colleagues accused of being mutineers because they have a

0:11:36 > 0:11:43slightly diverted the view is ridiculous. -- diverted view. I am

0:11:43 > 0:11:47pleased what we are seeing now is an attitude from the centre saying

0:11:47 > 0:11:53let's work together, let's not briefed against others, let's get on

0:11:53 > 0:11:57and stop the country from the even bigger danger than Brexit, a Jeremy

0:11:57 > 0:12:01Corbyn government.Stay there for a moment. I am going to bring in the

0:12:01 > 0:12:10panel. You were listening to that interview. A change in mood towards

0:12:10 > 0:12:14the Prime Minister?Haven't seems to have cheered up a lot. He seemed to

0:12:14 > 0:12:21me like a man giving his own leaving speech. There was a devil may care

0:12:21 > 0:12:27attitude aspect, not really backed up by what you're saying. They

0:12:27 > 0:12:31wanted always. There would be OBR figures to be nothing to do with a

0:12:31 > 0:12:33Government. Unfortunately they have revised down, there is nothing we

0:12:33 > 0:12:41can really do. At the same time, they wanted to show Conservative

0:12:41 > 0:12:44policies are capable of driving growth. They want to say,

0:12:44 > 0:12:47unfortunately it is not a generous Budget because growth figures are

0:12:47 > 0:12:51revised downwards, while at the same time saying that the OBR is often

0:12:51 > 0:12:58wrong, who knows if it will be correct. I don't think you get any

0:12:58 > 0:13:06clear analysis from this.Cake and eat it?The significance is not

0:13:06 > 0:13:12really economic, it is political. If you go back a week, it seemed

0:13:12 > 0:13:17possible, likely even, that the Chancellor was going to be replaced

0:13:17 > 0:13:23in a reshuffle expected between now and Christmas. He has saved his job.

0:13:23 > 0:13:27His critics in other parties will say, well, his job should be about

0:13:27 > 0:13:32more than his own personal survival. But it alters the dynamics. It means

0:13:32 > 0:13:37that the government but was not quite Chancellor, it means a

0:13:37 > 0:13:44reshuffle could be less substantial than might have been the case. It

0:13:44 > 0:13:49seems the Tories have had a shocking run over the last few months. They

0:13:49 > 0:13:54were rather buoyed up by it. Not that it was a massive success as a

0:13:54 > 0:13:58Budget, it was just OK. That counts for quite a lot at the moment.

0:13:58 > 0:14:02Listening to what Grant Shapps was telling us, it sounds like Theresa

0:14:02 > 0:14:07May's job is safe as well?I would if she is sitting in Downing Street

0:14:07 > 0:14:12wearing a badge saying Philip Hammond saved my job? The point is,

0:14:12 > 0:14:16just to pull out the camera, the fundamentals have not changed. The

0:14:16 > 0:14:19Conservatives did not win an overall majority at the election, they still

0:14:19 > 0:14:25have to deliver Brexit in an incredibly complicated process, that

0:14:25 > 0:14:29looks intractable with negotiation difficulties, particularly with

0:14:29 > 0:14:32Ireland, but also bringing the Cabinet together over some of these

0:14:32 > 0:14:39incredibly thorny issues about where Brexit is going to end up. Although

0:14:39 > 0:14:45Grant is putting a positive gloss on it now, the conference after which

0:14:45 > 0:14:50he was adjusted people might consider her going -- after which he

0:14:50 > 0:14:53suggested people might consider her going, things have not really

0:14:53 > 0:14:56changed. He says his view has not really changed, and I think that

0:14:56 > 0:15:01many of the people that Grant talks to, they have not changed their

0:15:01 > 0:15:05fundamental view about the talents and otherwise of Theresa May. I

0:15:05 > 0:15:09wonder how many people think what Grant thinks at the moment?We will

0:15:09 > 0:15:13come back to you and ask you that. How many people agree with you? Do

0:15:13 > 0:15:17you still have the same view about the Prime Minister?I have said

0:15:17 > 0:15:21exactly what I think. You don't have to second-guess what I think about

0:15:21 > 0:15:28all of this. Nor do I think it is worth day by day giving a running

0:15:28 > 0:15:31commentary on that. I was heartened to see Number 10 and number 11

0:15:31 > 0:15:35working together. We can make some progress. I think that is a very

0:15:35 > 0:15:38good thing. The lesson to be learned, just because people have

0:15:38 > 0:15:42diverse views, it has not been there should be vilified. I think we were

0:15:42 > 0:15:45in danger of doing that through the whips or Number 10, or what have

0:15:45 > 0:15:48you. I'm pleased to see we have a more mature attitude coming from

0:15:48 > 0:15:53Downing Street.

0:15:53 > 0:15:57You once said you thought you would make a good Prime Minister yourself,

0:15:57 > 0:16:00do you still think that?The question was do you have the

0:16:00 > 0:16:05required ability to make these decisions and the rest of it. To

0:16:05 > 0:16:08answer that question would be as if to say I don't think she should be

0:16:08 > 0:16:14doing it but that's not what I think at all. I think this country

0:16:14 > 0:16:17requires leadership which unites particularly those involved in the

0:16:17 > 0:16:21Government and I'm pleased that's what we are now starting to get.

0:16:21 > 0:16:26Grant Shapps, thanks for coming to talk to us today.

0:16:26 > 0:16:28Now, the Northern Powerhouse was a phrase coined

0:16:28 > 0:16:30by Philip Hammond's predecessor, George Osborne.

0:16:30 > 0:16:32But Theresa May has insisted that she wouldn't be

0:16:32 > 0:16:33pulling the plug on it.

0:16:33 > 0:16:35So how did it fare in this month's Budget?

0:16:35 > 0:16:37Joining us now from Salford is the Mayor

0:16:37 > 0:16:38of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham.

0:16:38 > 0:16:43Thanks for coming in. I assume you must be very pleased with the Budget

0:16:43 > 0:16:47and the amount of money delivered for the Northern Powerhouse?When I

0:16:47 > 0:16:51came into this job I was clear I would never play politics for the

0:16:51 > 0:16:57sake of it. There was good news in this Budget for Manchester, money

0:16:57 > 0:17:03which we need very much, money to help us tackle rough sleeping.

0:17:03 > 0:17:07Again, a big priority for me. But overall I have to say it is pretty

0:17:07 > 0:17:15thin pickings for the north of England. The headline measure on

0:17:15 > 0:17:17stamp duty massively benefits the South over the north and people here

0:17:17 > 0:17:21who are suffering every day on the rail system, our clapped-out rail

0:17:21 > 0:17:27system, they didn't get any good news in terms of electrification or

0:17:27 > 0:17:36improvement of services. All we got was an -- promise of improvement of

0:17:36 > 0:17:42mobile services.The Government is giving new £12 million to help cover

0:17:42 > 0:17:47the cost relating to the Manchester Arena attack. You must be welcoming

0:17:47 > 0:17:51of that too.This is difficult because I'm conscious whenever this

0:17:51 > 0:17:56issue comes up, I'm conscious of the families. We put our bid in some

0:17:56 > 0:18:02time ago. The cost we have incurred so far is 17 million and we have a

0:18:02 > 0:18:06further 11 million we will incur through the inquest process. We have

0:18:06 > 0:18:10been raising that privately and I haven't gone public on this issue

0:18:10 > 0:18:14until the Prime Minister said last week we would have the answer, and

0:18:14 > 0:18:20we got that on Friday. It falls some way short. I cannot see why the

0:18:20 > 0:18:24Government is not meeting our cost in full. As I said at the beginning,

0:18:24 > 0:18:28I would never make politics out of this issue but when we got our

0:18:28 > 0:18:32answer and it wasn't good enough I had to make our position clear. I

0:18:32 > 0:18:35will be replying to the Prime Minister saying let's sort this out

0:18:35 > 0:18:41properly. I just hope we can now get a full agreement for all of our

0:18:41 > 0:18:45costs from the Government.You've accused the Government before of

0:18:45 > 0:18:50being London centric and ignoring other parts of the UK. Given that

0:18:50 > 0:18:56you have welcomed of the spending measures, do you feel that problem

0:18:56 > 0:19:00has been addressed?Definitely not. The country is London centric. The

0:19:00 > 0:19:06way transport investment is assessed by the Treasury favours the areas

0:19:06 > 0:19:09where there is already greater economic growth. The system is

0:19:09 > 0:19:14biased against the north and that needs to change. In the Budget we

0:19:14 > 0:19:18got a half-hearted commitment to the rail system of the future for the

0:19:18 > 0:19:24north of England but Crossrail 2, the project in London, got more of a

0:19:24 > 0:19:30thumbs up. I'm speaking for people here who feel this has been very

0:19:30 > 0:19:34unfair over decades. We have a transport system here that is

0:19:34 > 0:19:38creaking now and it is completely congested, it isn't working for

0:19:38 > 0:19:43people. The Government needs to grip that problem much more directly. The

0:19:43 > 0:19:47problem I guess with this Budget was there's an elephant in the room and

0:19:47 > 0:19:51that is the Brexit Divorce Bill. There was a feeling for me they were

0:19:51 > 0:19:55not committing money our infrastructure cause of this thing

0:19:55 > 0:20:01looming behind. To have no mention of social care, no mention of police

0:20:01 > 0:20:07funding, these were two gaping holes at the heart of this Budget.Surely

0:20:07 > 0:20:12you think they should be making a generous offer for the Brexit

0:20:12 > 0:20:16divorce settlement? You are not advocating that we walk away without

0:20:16 > 0:20:23paying our dues?No, my point was a different one. It looks like the

0:20:23 > 0:20:26Government is holding back on the investment the north of England

0:20:26 > 0:20:31needs until they have settled this question, but the challenges facing

0:20:31 > 0:20:33our public services and the productivity challenge facing the

0:20:33 > 0:20:37north is urgent and it is critical we get that investment so we can

0:20:37 > 0:20:43rise to the challenge of exit. I saw this as a Budget where the

0:20:43 > 0:20:49Chancellor was holding back. This year of all years, to have no

0:20:49 > 0:20:52mention of police security counterterrorism in the Budget

0:20:52 > 0:20:56seemed a monumental mistake. The police service here has not got much

0:20:56 > 0:21:03left to give. It is down to the bare minimum and we need to see the

0:21:03 > 0:21:06Chancellor bringing forward new funding for the police in the

0:21:06 > 0:21:11December settlement that it's about to get. To have no mention of it

0:21:11 > 0:21:16just seemed to me to be a major mistake.What did you make of Jeremy

0:21:16 > 0:21:24Corbyn's response to the Budget?I thought it was passionate. I don't

0:21:24 > 0:21:29think they will deal with the issue of Universal Credit.It was

0:21:29 > 0:21:34passionate but was it effective?I think so. People want to see people

0:21:34 > 0:21:39speaking with that level of commitment, genuine concern. The

0:21:39 > 0:21:43dangers are still there with Universal Credit. Tinkering with the

0:21:43 > 0:21:46waiting times I don't think will take away the problem that it could

0:21:46 > 0:21:51put more people on our streets, huddled in doorways. The Government

0:21:51 > 0:21:56needs to give a clear commitment that we won't see people spiralling

0:21:56 > 0:22:00into debt and then at the risk of being homeless as a result of

0:22:00 > 0:22:05Universal Credit roll out.The day after the Budget John McDonnell got

0:22:05 > 0:22:11in a muddle over his figures on debt repayment. He must -- you must have

0:22:11 > 0:22:14been cringing as you watched some of those interviews.You always get

0:22:14 > 0:22:20these interviews after the Budget. I have sat in those positions and I

0:22:20 > 0:22:25think it is partly what turns people off politics. I'm not here

0:22:25 > 0:22:29necessarily to speak for the front bench, I thought they mounted a good

0:22:29 > 0:22:35critique of the Budget. What I want is a more wholehearted embrace of

0:22:35 > 0:22:38devolution from both political parties. The challenge the country

0:22:38 > 0:22:43is facing right now is that we are to London centric, Brexit is

0:22:43 > 0:22:46looming, we need investment in the regions and I don't think we can

0:22:46 > 0:22:52bring this power back from Brussels and then keep it all in Westminster.

0:22:52 > 0:22:55We are already in overcentralised country and its crucial the power is

0:22:55 > 0:22:59passed down to places like Greater Manchester and I want to see both

0:22:59 > 0:23:03parties embracing that is part of the response to the referendum.I'm

0:23:03 > 0:23:08not asking you to speak for the Labour front bench, but how did it

0:23:08 > 0:23:12look to you when they were responding to it, you will know

0:23:12 > 0:23:17Labour are trailing in the polls on economic competence - did they do

0:23:17 > 0:23:20enough this week to adjust people's view as to whether or not Labour

0:23:20 > 0:23:24should be put in charge of the economy?That is the challenge that

0:23:24 > 0:23:29the Labour Party has to convince the country it can run a stronger

0:23:29 > 0:23:33economy. The Shadow Chancellor has put investment in infrastructure

0:23:33 > 0:23:37front and centre of what he's saying and I think he's absolutely right to

0:23:37 > 0:23:50do that. The country is crying out for that transport system,

0:23:50 > 0:23:52particularly here in the north that will allow us to improve

0:23:52 > 0:23:54productivity and they are not getting that from the current

0:23:54 > 0:23:56Chancellor. Looming questions about the Divorce Bill, so therefore he

0:23:56 > 0:23:59won't commit to the investment now. What you got from the Shadow

0:23:59 > 0:24:02Chancellor was a clearer analysis of what the country needs, and I think

0:24:02 > 0:24:08that's what people want to hear. Andy Burnham, thank you for coming

0:24:08 > 0:24:11in to talk to us.

0:24:11 > 0:24:14Last week we had a film from Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart on why

0:24:14 > 0:24:16business will continue to prosper across Europe after Brexit.

0:24:16 > 0:24:19This week, London and Dublin have clashed over what will

0:24:19 > 0:24:20happen to the border between Northern Ireland

0:24:20 > 0:24:23and the Irish Republic - something the EU says needs to be

0:24:23 > 0:24:26resolved if Brexit negotiations are to move onto trade next month.

0:24:26 > 0:24:28So today, Irish MEP and vice president of the European

0:24:28 > 0:24:31Parliament, Mairead McGuiness, takes us to the border to explain

0:24:31 > 0:24:37why she thinks Brexit could cause business -

0:24:37 > 0:24:39and the people on the island of Ireland -

0:24:39 > 0:24:41considerable difficulties.

0:24:52 > 0:24:54This is Dundalk in County Louth, a town close to the border

0:24:54 > 0:24:58with Northern Ireland, and close to where I grew up myself.

0:24:58 > 0:25:01Today, I represent the constituency along that 310 mile border.

0:25:01 > 0:25:04With the Brexit negotiations ongoing, people along the border

0:25:04 > 0:25:08are troubled by the uncertainty.

0:25:08 > 0:25:10are troubled by the uncertainty.

0:25:10 > 0:25:12From Dundalk, you can take a straight road to Northern Ireland

0:25:12 > 0:25:17and there's no stopping.

0:25:17 > 0:25:18and there's no stopping.

0:25:18 > 0:25:20At the last count, there are over 300 different road crossings

0:25:20 > 0:25:26between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

0:25:26 > 0:25:28The big question is, what will change post-Brexit?

0:25:28 > 0:25:32And what do we have to do to keep the situation as it is today?

0:25:32 > 0:25:34For me, there is only one way, that the United Kingdom stays

0:25:34 > 0:25:39in the customs union.

0:25:39 > 0:25:42But I know the UK are determined not to do that.

0:25:42 > 0:25:43I think the negotiations are struggling.

0:25:43 > 0:25:45Not too far from the border crossing, just south,

0:25:45 > 0:25:47I caught up with beef farmer Jim Murray.

0:25:47 > 0:25:49That's the actual border itself, just ahead.

0:25:49 > 0:25:51The actual border is about half a mile past that.

0:25:51 > 0:25:55Today it is frictionless and seamless, and invisible.

0:25:55 > 0:25:56Totally.

0:25:56 > 0:25:59Do think it's going to stay that way after Brexit?

0:25:59 > 0:26:01Well, I hope it will stay like that, because were used to this.

0:26:01 > 0:26:05Well, I hope it will stay like that, because we're used to this.

0:26:05 > 0:26:08I come from a time when I remember that you couldn't actually go down

0:26:08 > 0:26:10that road to access, to do some business

0:26:10 > 0:26:12in the north, because the road was actually blocked.

0:26:12 > 0:26:15Have you been reassured by any of the political statements around

0:26:15 > 0:26:17the border in particular, basically saying that things

0:26:17 > 0:26:18will stay as they are?

0:26:18 > 0:26:20I haven't, really, because seamless and frictionless borders, you know,

0:26:20 > 0:26:24to me it is an oxymoron.

0:26:24 > 0:26:25Because it's still a border.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27I also visited George McArdle.

0:26:27 > 0:26:29He's been running a haulage company for the last 50

0:26:29 > 0:26:32years with experience of crossing the border.

0:26:32 > 0:26:34What are you worried about?

0:26:34 > 0:26:39We're worried about customs and delays.

0:26:39 > 0:26:44We'd be delayed a couple of hours.

0:26:44 > 0:26:44We'd be delayed a couple of hours.

0:26:44 > 0:26:49Would there be costs involved for you?

0:26:49 > 0:26:51We'd be paying drivers, the trucks lying idle.

0:26:51 > 0:26:53People say that, while we have peace, it is fragile.

0:26:53 > 0:26:54It's very fragile.

0:26:54 > 0:26:57Any little thing could upset the whole thing again,

0:26:57 > 0:27:00and we wouldn't like to see Brexit be the cause of it.

0:27:06 > 0:27:09We are moving from the Republic of Ireland, just across the border,

0:27:09 > 0:27:14and I'm now in Northern Ireland.

0:27:14 > 0:27:15and I'm now in Northern Ireland.

0:27:15 > 0:27:16It was very smooth, seamless and frictionless.

0:27:16 > 0:27:21I suppose that's what we want to see continue in a post-Brexit era.

0:27:21 > 0:27:23Just across the border into Northern Ireland, I caught

0:27:23 > 0:27:25up with Des Fraser, who gave me his view

0:27:25 > 0:27:27about why the United Kingdom decided to leave Europe.

0:27:27 > 0:27:30First of all it was the cost.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33I also felt, particularly the likes of the slurry ban, for agriculture,

0:27:33 > 0:27:35I don't think there should be somebody in Brussels

0:27:35 > 0:27:38telling us when we can or can't spread our slurry.

0:27:38 > 0:27:41What effect do you think Brexit would have on the border?

0:27:41 > 0:27:44Do you think we're going to be able to avoid a hard border?

0:27:44 > 0:27:46Getting a solution is the difficulty, there's no doubt.

0:27:46 > 0:27:49There's a harmonious relationship, you know,

0:27:49 > 0:27:51with Europe and Switzerland, Europe and Norway, without a hard

0:27:51 > 0:27:54border in existence.

0:27:54 > 0:27:58It's very clear that people on both sides of the border want the special

0:27:58 > 0:28:00circumstances on the island of Ireland to be taken into account

0:28:00 > 0:28:04in the Brexit negotiations.

0:28:04 > 0:28:08But can it be and will it be done in time for the December council?

0:28:08 > 0:28:10Will we resolve the conundrum and square the circle

0:28:10 > 0:28:16of an invisible border on the island of Ireland post-Brexit?

0:28:20 > 0:28:23And Mairead McGuiness joins us now from Dublin.

0:28:23 > 0:28:28The former Northern Ireland Secretary and leading Brexiteer,

0:28:28 > 0:28:32Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.

0:28:32 > 0:28:33Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.

0:28:33 > 0:28:40Thank you both for joining us. Owen

0:28:40 > 0:28:47Thank you both for joining us. Owen Paterson, Mariad laid out her case,

0:28:47 > 0:28:52does the Government have an answer to this?Yes, there's already an

0:28:52 > 0:29:01existing border. I've been going there since ten years ago. There's a

0:29:01 > 0:29:07currency board, now a euro sterling border, a VAT border, a corporation

0:29:07 > 0:29:11tax border, and in all the time I've been going to Northern Ireland and

0:29:11 > 0:29:25the public, not a single person ever said this presents a problem....

0:29:25 > 0:29:32Physical border.Through the referendum campaign, we made it

0:29:32 > 0:29:37clear there are electronic measures and techniques, existing techniques

0:29:37 > 0:29:41such as authorised economic operators and this can all be made

0:29:41 > 0:29:47to work if there is a will on the border. It has a small amount of

0:29:47 > 0:29:55trade. Northern Ireland has 80% of its trade to the rest of the UK,

0:29:55 > 0:30:01only 5% goes over the border. It would be very easy to license

0:30:01 > 0:30:05tankers that take milk over the border as authorising economic

0:30:05 > 0:30:10operators that go over every day, they would be recognised on a

0:30:10 > 0:30:14regular basis, all invoices done electronically. It is a very small

0:30:14 > 0:30:25problem if there is a will.Let's bring in Mairead McGuiness. Owen

0:30:25 > 0:30:27Paterson sounds like he's saying you're exaggerating the problem is

0:30:27 > 0:30:31here.

0:30:31 > 0:30:34I've listened to it several times and not heard anything new. He is

0:30:34 > 0:30:38right that where there is a will there is a way. This is a serious

0:30:38 > 0:30:42matter for my constituency, for the island of Ireland and Europe. We

0:30:42 > 0:30:47have not found the way. To bring up separate currencies, OK, it is part

0:30:47 > 0:30:52of the situation, but we don't have a border in the visible sense. When

0:30:52 > 0:30:55the United Kingdom remains determined to leave the customs

0:30:55 > 0:30:58union and single market, the milk that he refers to produced in

0:30:58 > 0:31:02Northern Ireland and processed in the Republic of Ireland comes from a

0:31:02 > 0:31:06country that is a third country, no longer a member of the European

0:31:06 > 0:31:11Union. There are many issues about that. I know the fathers in Northern

0:31:11 > 0:31:13Ireland are deeply concerned about the consequences for them as daily

0:31:13 > 0:31:20farmers. -- dairy farmers. They are troubled by his insistence that he

0:31:20 > 0:31:23wants to scrap many of the rules around the food industry and

0:31:23 > 0:31:29agriculture. He wants to scrap support for agriculture. Even

0:31:29 > 0:31:32farmers that voted Leave, they are now quite perplexed about what they

0:31:32 > 0:31:36are hearing from the UK side, not just around the issue of the border,

0:31:36 > 0:31:42but on the wider issues of trade. That is where this problem really

0:31:42 > 0:31:45lies, and where we will have great difficulty. I am more troubled this

0:31:45 > 0:31:50morning, because I read a quote from Arlene Fox the trade Secretary,

0:31:50 > 0:31:54saying that the border issue and the Irish issue will not be solved until

0:31:54 > 0:31:58the final stage, until we reach a decision on trade. I hope the United

0:31:58 > 0:32:03Kingdom is not holding the situation to ransom in these negotiations. It

0:32:03 > 0:32:09is far too serious and too critical. Let's go to Owen Paterson.May I

0:32:09 > 0:32:14finish this point?We now have a situation on the island of Ireland

0:32:14 > 0:32:17and Northern Ireland where we have built piece and we are hoping to

0:32:17 > 0:32:20maintain that. I believe that we will and we can. Unfortunately,

0:32:20 > 0:32:24there is no assembly, there are divisions between the communities

0:32:24 > 0:32:28but they are now becoming deeper. We have to work really hard to avoid

0:32:28 > 0:32:34that. Part of that is to make sure, as Theresa May said on Friday, she

0:32:34 > 0:32:37wants the situation to remain the same as it is today, post-Brexit.

0:32:37 > 0:32:42The only way to achieve that is to stay in the customs union and single

0:32:42 > 0:32:47market. That is the solution.A lot for you to pick up on. Let's start

0:32:47 > 0:32:50with the idea that it might be possible to come up with a final

0:32:50 > 0:32:53solution to the Irish border question after we have seen the

0:32:53 > 0:32:58shape of a trade deal. EU made it clear we cannot talk about trade

0:32:58 > 0:33:03until the Irish border has been settled?Saw those comments were

0:33:03 > 0:33:07completely ridiculous and they have been repeated when we have done

0:33:07 > 0:33:10interviews before. -- some of those comments. The idea that Northern

0:33:10 > 0:33:16Ireland will be taken out of the UK is absurd. 78 million people voted

0:33:16 > 0:33:20to leave the European Union, they voted to leave the customs union and

0:33:20 > 0:33:25the single market, and the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The idea

0:33:25 > 0:33:28that politicians in Dublin can somehow start to force Northern

0:33:28 > 0:33:33Ireland to stay, against the will of a significant number of citizens,

0:33:33 > 0:33:36within an arrangement that will not serve the economic and you're

0:33:36 > 0:33:39politically, it is really very dangerous. Let's talk about the

0:33:39 > 0:33:43peace process, I can't think of anything more destabilising... This

0:33:43 > 0:33:48is a really important point. I want to make this point. It is really

0:33:48 > 0:33:51very irresponsible politicians to make a statement like that, saying

0:33:51 > 0:33:56they are going to force and blackmail the UK into getting a

0:33:56 > 0:33:59special status for Northern Ireland outside the rest of the UK. That is

0:33:59 > 0:34:04a really dangerous thing to do and they should stop doing it. There are

0:34:04 > 0:34:07perfectly sensible, technical solutions to the problem of the

0:34:07 > 0:34:10border. We currently have complete conformity of standards. Products

0:34:10 > 0:34:15going over the border go on a very regular basis. It is a tiny part of

0:34:15 > 0:34:20trade between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. It is a really

0:34:20 > 0:34:24tiny part of trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

0:34:24 > 0:34:29and it is solvable by modern methods. The idea we will go back to

0:34:29 > 0:34:34old customs, with customs officials in bridges, sticking a ladle into a

0:34:34 > 0:34:45couple trickle, it is out of date. Less than 2% of goods are inspected

0:34:45 > 0:34:53physically. This is completely out of date. -- sticking a ladle into a

0:34:53 > 0:35:06tub of back-to-back.I am disturbed by some of those comments, to

0:35:06 > 0:35:10describe that view as ridiculous is not helpful. To suggest it is

0:35:10 > 0:35:14blackmailing is appalling. The UK, the Irish at the European Union know

0:35:14 > 0:35:20we have had a difficult history. We have worked hard politically and

0:35:20 > 0:35:28financially to make sure we move forward and we have. If the United

0:35:28 > 0:35:32Kingdom does trade agreements with other partners and goods are flowing

0:35:32 > 0:35:34into Northern Ireland, we have to watch and know where they are coming

0:35:34 > 0:35:39from. That will affect businesses in Northern Ireland, as it will affect

0:35:39 > 0:35:43businesses in the European Union. I dislike this notion, and it is

0:35:43 > 0:35:47happening and happened again in this studio this morning, that the United

0:35:47 > 0:35:51Kingdom and Owen Paterson would say if borders go up, it is our fault.

0:35:51 > 0:35:54Let's be frank, because we should be, we are neighbours and good

0:35:54 > 0:36:00friends. The European Union, 28 today, we respect the democratic

0:36:00 > 0:36:04decision of the United Kingdom to leave, but I would ask you to

0:36:04 > 0:36:08reflect on the reality of Northern Ireland, where people voted to stay

0:36:08 > 0:36:11because they knew the consequences for them. Regrettably, where the

0:36:11 > 0:36:14referendum was taking place, there was no talk about the consequences

0:36:14 > 0:36:20for Northern Ireland or the island of Ireland. We are left in a

0:36:20 > 0:36:22situation where, retrospectively, we are trying to find solutions. If it

0:36:22 > 0:36:27upsets your guest at the studio, I repeated anyway, we have to be frank

0:36:27 > 0:36:31with one another. The way to stay the same on the island of Ireland,

0:36:31 > 0:36:35as it is today, post-Brexit, is for at least the United Kingdom to take

0:36:35 > 0:36:39the red off the table, to stay the customs union and single market

0:36:39 > 0:36:44gives us what we have today, and invisible border, seamless trade,

0:36:44 > 0:36:49and also building at helping to keep those relationships. The good

0:36:49 > 0:36:54relationship was helped in no small part because Ireland, the United

0:36:54 > 0:36:59Kingdom and 26 other countries can sit around a table. They sit in the

0:36:59 > 0:37:02European Parliament, in the council, and we do business because we got to

0:37:02 > 0:37:06know each other. We have formal and informal talks and relationships. We

0:37:06 > 0:37:10should really strive to continue that. It is in the interests of the

0:37:10 > 0:37:13people we spoke to on the border, those that wanted the United Kingdom

0:37:13 > 0:37:18to stay, and those that might have had a different view.Owen Paterson,

0:37:18 > 0:37:27can you see that this can be resolved before we know the shape of

0:37:27 > 0:37:30a final trade deal? The idea that the Irish question needs to be

0:37:30 > 0:37:32settled before we move on to talking about future trading or relations?

0:37:32 > 0:37:37Is that possible?As somebody who spent time a shadow and Secretary of

0:37:37 > 0:37:44State, going very regularly to Dublin, getting the main political

0:37:44 > 0:37:47parties in on that, I appreciate the good level of relations between the

0:37:47 > 0:37:52UK and the Republic of Ireland, the enormous benefits to so many people.

0:37:52 > 0:37:57Therefore, I am absolutely dismayed at the talk this morning, which is

0:37:57 > 0:37:59completely unrealistic, expecting Northern Ireland to be given a

0:37:59 > 0:38:04separate status, outside, effectively, the United Kingdom. 87%

0:38:04 > 0:38:10of sales, purely on economics, are within the UK. Henri

0:38:10 > 0:38:15-- on economic grounds, it is crazy. It is very dangerous. There was a

0:38:15 > 0:38:18referendum at the time of the Belfast agreement. There was

0:38:18 > 0:38:24overwhelming support for it to stay in the UK. All of the polls show

0:38:24 > 0:38:29that Northern Ireland will stay very firmly within the UK.Very quickly,

0:38:29 > 0:38:38then, one last point?I hate to say, but Owen may not be listening to

0:38:38 > 0:38:42what I said. I said the United Kingdom would stay in the customs

0:38:42 > 0:38:44union and single market, I did not say Northern Ireland should separate

0:38:44 > 0:38:50and stay in, although that is a potential solution, it is not the

0:38:50 > 0:38:54one I said this morning. Please respond to what I have said.We

0:38:54 > 0:38:58don't have time to respond to any of that. It is an issue we will return

0:38:58 > 0:39:00to. Thank you very much.

0:39:09 > 0:39:12Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.

0:39:12 > 0:39:16In a few minutes, why were staff working for Wales' health watchdog

0:39:16 > 0:39:20told not to embarrass the Government as ministers discuss their future?

0:39:20 > 0:39:22We've an exclusive report.

0:39:22 > 0:39:24And what next for Welsh councils?

0:39:24 > 0:39:26Will they, should they, ever be reformed?

0:39:26 > 0:39:31The leader of the Welsh Local Government Association

0:39:31 > 0:39:33joins me live.

0:39:33 > 0:39:36But first, the latest in the continuing row

0:39:36 > 0:39:38over allegations of bullying in the Welsh Government.

0:39:38 > 0:39:41This week the First Minister referred himself to an independent

0:39:41 > 0:39:43inquiry into the claims, which date back to 2014.

0:39:43 > 0:39:46Carwyn Jones is also facing a vote in the Senedd this week

0:39:46 > 0:39:48on a separate bid by opposition parties

0:39:48 > 0:39:52to make him answer questions in front of a panel of AMs.

0:39:52 > 0:39:54We'll hear from the Conservatives on that in a moment.

0:39:54 > 0:39:58But first, Jeremy Miles, the Counsel General, is here -

0:39:58 > 0:40:00the main legal advisor to the Welsh Government

0:40:00 > 0:40:05as well as the Neath AM.

0:40:05 > 0:40:06as well as the Neath AM.

0:40:06 > 0:40:12Thank you for coming in this morning. Looking at this inquiry by

0:40:12 > 0:40:18the First Minister, what do you expect to get out of that inquiry?

0:40:18 > 0:40:21The First Minister has referred himself to an independent adviser so

0:40:21 > 0:40:25what has happened is, the First Minister has amended the ministerial

0:40:25 > 0:40:30code so that he is able to refer matters to an independent third

0:40:30 > 0:40:33party, who will then look into matters and will then provide a

0:40:33 > 0:40:38report to the First Minister and that report is a public report so it

0:40:38 > 0:40:44is available for anyone to see. That is a system which is already used in

0:40:44 > 0:40:47the Scottish Parliament, and the Scottish Government operates on that

0:40:47 > 0:40:50basis, so that is the process the First Minister has now put in place

0:40:50 > 0:40:57for Wales as well.Looking at what the inquiry will be looking at, the

0:40:57 > 0:41:00First Minister said on Thursday, I think, in relation to the

0:41:00 > 0:41:04allegations made in the last two weeks that I breached the

0:41:04 > 0:41:08ministerial code, that is what he has asked this man to look into, as

0:41:08 > 0:41:14far as you understand it, will that be looking at the last two weeks, or

0:41:14 > 0:41:18bullying in 2014 in the Welsh Government?Let's take a step back

0:41:18 > 0:41:24to see how we have got to hear. A little over two weeks ago, at First

0:41:24 > 0:41:27Minister's Questions, based on allegations in the press, there was

0:41:27 > 0:41:30an exchange between the First Minister and the Leader of the

0:41:30 > 0:41:33Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition was not satisfied with

0:41:33 > 0:41:37what the First Minister had to say and then he wrote to the First

0:41:37 > 0:41:39Minister alleging breaches of the ministerial code and asking for

0:41:39 > 0:41:45those bridges to be investigated independently in the same way that

0:41:45 > 0:41:49happens in Scotland. Plaid Cymru have called for this for some time

0:41:49 > 0:41:53and they also called for those alleged breaches to be looked at in

0:41:53 > 0:41:57the same way. So that is what the First Minister has put in place,

0:41:57 > 0:42:06what has been requested. I don't quite understand why they won't take

0:42:06 > 0:42:12yes for an answer.But what will it be looking at? Will it be looking at

0:42:12 > 0:42:17just the past two weeks, which would be a very narrow focus, or will it

0:42:17 > 0:42:23be looking at 2014, what was going on within the cabinet back then?The

0:42:23 > 0:42:27alleged breaches of the ministerial code have happened in the last two

0:42:27 > 0:42:32weeks. They refer to the exchange in the chamber. So that is what the

0:42:32 > 0:42:36independent adviser will look at. Obviously it is up to the

0:42:36 > 0:42:40Independent adviser how to approach that. What is not set out in the

0:42:40 > 0:42:44ministerial code is any specific guidelines or rules around how that

0:42:44 > 0:42:48works. It is apt to an adviser to look into that and form a and report

0:42:48 > 0:42:53on it.In your view, is it possible to look into what has happened over

0:42:53 > 0:42:57the last two weeks as to whether Carwyn Jones has breached the

0:42:57 > 0:43:00ministerial code without a full consideration of whether there was

0:43:00 > 0:43:08or wasn't bullying going on in 2014? From the independent adviser's point

0:43:08 > 0:43:12of view, presumably he will want to look at the factual context. But it

0:43:12 > 0:43:16is up to him how we approach is that. What the First Minister has

0:43:16 > 0:43:19said on more than one occasion is that he and the government will

0:43:19 > 0:43:23cooperate fully with the independent adviser in doing that. The whole

0:43:23 > 0:43:27point of this process is that it is independent. That is why it has been

0:43:27 > 0:43:31called for by the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru and that is why it has

0:43:31 > 0:43:36been put in place.So you expect the independent adviser to be looking

0:43:36 > 0:43:41back as to whether they work or wasn't bullying going on in 2014. We

0:43:41 > 0:43:44know that the report will be made public but the evidence gathering

0:43:44 > 0:43:50sessions will be... Will not be made public, will be in private. Why is

0:43:50 > 0:43:59that?The process is entirely up to the independent adviser. No, the

0:43:59 > 0:44:02First Minister says the findings of the independent adviser will be

0:44:02 > 0:44:05published, that is in the ministerial code. But he also said

0:44:05 > 0:44:18the sessions will not be.Should it be public?Since the initial request

0:44:18 > 0:44:23that an independent adviser should be established, the Conservatives

0:44:23 > 0:44:26have been calling for a scrutiny committee approach to this issue,

0:44:26 > 0:44:31which would involve the jeers of the other committees in the Assembly...

0:44:31 > 0:44:37Held in public.Simon Thomas has said that would be an unwieldy way

0:44:37 > 0:44:42to look at it and I think that was a legitimate concern but there is also

0:44:42 > 0:44:45a concern that the chair of that committee is a Labour chair and

0:44:45 > 0:44:47there is a Labour majority on that committee so what was really

0:44:47 > 0:44:51important in the context of this, and I'm absolutely sure that the

0:44:51 > 0:44:57committee will do its work without fear or favour...But you are not

0:44:57 > 0:45:03answering my question, with respect. What is important that as well as it

0:45:03 > 0:45:09is independent is that it is seen to be independent.How can it be seen

0:45:09 > 0:45:12to be independent if all the evidence gathering sessions are not

0:45:12 > 0:45:17published? They will be privately held. Why not hold those public, why

0:45:17 > 0:45:20not have that additional level of transparency to have a bit more

0:45:20 > 0:45:25confidence in the process?The way that this has operated in Scotland

0:45:25 > 0:45:29is the way it will operate in Wales. That is what has been called for and

0:45:29 > 0:45:33that is what the First Minister has put in place.Don't you think it

0:45:33 > 0:45:38would be better if it was publicly held?There are all sorts of

0:45:38 > 0:45:44considerations around that but the key thing is going to be public and

0:45:44 > 0:45:49available for everyone to see.Why did it take the First Minister to

0:45:49 > 0:45:51take so long to come to this conclusion of holding an independent

0:45:51 > 0:45:57inquiry?There have been questions and calls for some time about how

0:45:57 > 0:46:01this sort of matter would be dealt with. They have been debated for

0:46:01 > 0:46:06quite a long time in the Assembly, much longer than I've been...But

0:46:06 > 0:46:11why has it taken so long?There are legitimately different ways of

0:46:11 > 0:46:16approaching this issue, even if you share the same objective, which is

0:46:16 > 0:46:19proper scrutiny. What's new is that it is the First Minister himself who

0:46:19 > 0:46:24is the subject...But the initial call by Andrew RT Davies was made

0:46:24 > 0:46:29two weeks ago, I think. Why is it only on Thursday once the vote has

0:46:29 > 0:46:32been held for the panel of AM is to scrutinise, why is it then that

0:46:32 > 0:46:37Carwyn Jones decided to act?This has been considered as a response to

0:46:37 > 0:46:43what has been called for. It is not the first time, because this has

0:46:43 > 0:46:46been debated for some time. There are good arguments for and against

0:46:46 > 0:46:51that. But it is the First Minister who is the subject of the complaint

0:46:51 > 0:46:55by the Leader of the Opposition and so it feels appropriate at that

0:46:55 > 0:46:59point to put an additional layer of independence in place.It does seem

0:46:59 > 0:47:03strange that the First Minister only decided to act in this way once it

0:47:03 > 0:47:06became clear there was going to be a vote on an independent AM led

0:47:06 > 0:47:12scrutiny session into its actions. The call was made last week and the

0:47:12 > 0:47:15decision was made this week and that feels to me to be a perfectly

0:47:15 > 0:47:21appropriate period of time.You are a new member of the Cabinet for

0:47:21 > 0:47:24Carwyn Jones. What is the mood in cabinet at the moment considering

0:47:24 > 0:47:29all that's gone on?The mood across the Assembly is the same. There is

0:47:29 > 0:47:33an acknowledgement of a very different -- difficult period but my

0:47:33 > 0:47:40own view is, and this isn't sharing any confidence from the Cabinet, but

0:47:40 > 0:47:44my own view is that a process that has this level of transparency and

0:47:44 > 0:47:49independence is the right way of looking at this question.I guess

0:47:49 > 0:47:52for Carwyn Jones, no, it is clear for Carwyn Jones there hasn't been a

0:47:52 > 0:47:56period where he has faced this level of pressure from opposition parties

0:47:56 > 0:48:00and others. What is the feeling among York Labour Assembly Members

0:48:00 > 0:48:06towards the leader at the moment?So far, what we have seen happening is

0:48:06 > 0:48:10what should be happening. We have seen a commitment to independence in

0:48:10 > 0:48:15looking into issues both in terms of the inquiry, the inquest, now this

0:48:15 > 0:48:18issue, but the key thing is to make sure that we have an independent way

0:48:18 > 0:48:21of looking at these things and I think people are comfortable that

0:48:21 > 0:48:27that is what has been put in place. Are they happy with how he dealt,

0:48:27 > 0:48:31for example, with the sacking of Carl Sargeant and the aftermath of

0:48:31 > 0:48:35that? Are they happy with how he has dealt and conducted himself over the

0:48:35 > 0:48:41past three weeks?People recognise it is a very difficult set of

0:48:41 > 0:48:46circumstances and a very difficult time for everyone involved, most

0:48:46 > 0:48:49importantly the family themselves. The key thing is how the First

0:48:49 > 0:48:53Minister and the government reacts to each of these situations. As I

0:48:53 > 0:48:57say, there is an understanding that putting in place these independent

0:48:57 > 0:49:01mechanisms is a helpful way of taking things forward.But what we

0:49:01 > 0:49:05are seeing from the outside, Carwyn Jones, for the second time in a

0:49:05 > 0:49:09month now, having to go ahead with an independent enquiry and conceding

0:49:09 > 0:49:13to an awful lot of pressure from the opposition parties. He doesn't seem

0:49:13 > 0:49:17to be a leader showing a lot of leadership, he is following events,

0:49:17 > 0:49:23isn't he?No, I think it is perfectly appropriate, looking at

0:49:23 > 0:49:27this particular decision, they were two different options coming forward

0:49:27 > 0:49:35from opposition parties as how best to take things forward. There are

0:49:35 > 0:49:38merits in each approach. What the First Minister has done completely

0:49:38 > 0:49:43appropriately is look at those two options and decided that one is more

0:49:43 > 0:49:46appropriate than others, that is the independent adviser route, which he

0:49:46 > 0:49:51is pursuing.But there is there a sense in your Labour Assembly Member

0:49:51 > 0:49:54colleagues that Carwyn Jones needs to be more engaging with them.

0:49:54 > 0:49:57Perhaps he has been a little bit remote from the Labour group over

0:49:57 > 0:50:02the past few years and that needs to change?I don't think that is the

0:50:02 > 0:50:05mood at all. There is a recognition of these are very difficult

0:50:05 > 0:50:08circumstances in which to be making decisions and the decisions that

0:50:08 > 0:50:11have been taking are the right decisions.

0:50:11 > 0:50:14So, that's the view of the Welsh Government,

0:50:14 > 0:50:16but where does this leave the Welsh Conservatives

0:50:16 > 0:50:19and their motion to refer this issue to a committee of AMs?

0:50:19 > 0:50:21Andrew RT Davies will be here in a moment,

0:50:21 > 0:50:23but here's what he had to say

0:50:23 > 0:50:25at First Minister's Questions this week.

0:50:25 > 0:50:28Were issues of bullying raised specifically

0:50:28 > 0:50:31with you in October, November, 2014,

0:50:31 > 0:50:34and did you deal with them?

0:50:34 > 0:50:39As I've already said, I will just repeat what I said

0:50:39 > 0:50:44just to make it clear again, as I am aware, the comments made

0:50:44 > 0:50:47in the press, all I can say about those comments is that

0:50:47 > 0:50:50no specific allegation of bullying was ever presented to me

0:50:50 > 0:50:53in relation to those comments either formally or informally,

0:50:53 > 0:50:55no evidence was given to me,

0:50:55 > 0:50:57nor was that word "bullying" ever used in that way.

0:50:57 > 0:51:00I can't go beyond what I've said once again

0:51:00 > 0:51:02and just to reiterate what I said earlier on.

0:51:02 > 0:51:08Well, Mr Davies is here with me now.

0:51:08 > 0:51:11Well, Mr Davies is here with me now.

0:51:11 > 0:51:16You will have heard what Jeremy Miles just said there. What do you

0:51:16 > 0:51:21make of what he was saying about what the enquiry by the First

0:51:21 > 0:51:24Minister, by the independent adviser to the First Minister, will be

0:51:24 > 0:51:27looking at?In the first place it is welcoming that the First Minister

0:51:27 > 0:51:31has come round to our train of thought about independence in the

0:51:31 > 0:51:35ministerial code. This is something we have been calling for since 2014.

0:51:35 > 0:51:39What I'm disappointed at is that they have put a delete all amendment

0:51:39 > 0:51:42down to the motion that will go before the Assembly next Wednesday,

0:51:42 > 0:51:45which seeks to stop the scrutiny of the First Minister committee

0:51:45 > 0:51:52undertaking an enquiry into the wider issues around the accusations

0:51:52 > 0:51:55of bullying, a toxic environment on what we call the vet for, the

0:51:55 > 0:51:57government floor, that you need to be explored. It is not a political

0:51:57 > 0:52:00point that people stand up against bullying and call people out on

0:52:00 > 0:52:06that.To explain to people that might not be familiar with the

0:52:06 > 0:52:11processes, the Conservatives had an amendment down, a vote down in the

0:52:11 > 0:52:16Assembly next week, which said they should be a meeting of the First

0:52:16 > 0:52:20Minister's scrutiny committee and an independent inquiry by those ATMs

0:52:20 > 0:52:25into the behaviour of Carwyn Jones and what Libya has said -- Labour

0:52:25 > 0:52:32has said is, get rid of all of that. You were calling initially for an

0:52:32 > 0:52:35independent inquiry into what the First Minister new and whether or

0:52:35 > 0:52:39not he had misled the Assembly. That is what you are getting. Jeremy

0:52:39 > 0:52:44Miles was saying you won't take no for an answer, you won't take yes

0:52:44 > 0:52:49for an answer.That's not correct. What we have seen is the First

0:52:49 > 0:52:52Minister changing the ministerial code to introduce a level of

0:52:52 > 0:52:55independence which we have been talking about since July 2014 when a

0:52:55 > 0:52:59motion was put down by the opposition parties in the Assembly.

0:52:59 > 0:53:03But what has happened in the intervening period, we have had

0:53:03 > 0:53:06serious accusations levelled against people at the heart of government,

0:53:06 > 0:53:10former ministers and special advisers, that in any other

0:53:10 > 0:53:13workplace would be referred independently and transparently to a

0:53:13 > 0:53:18group of individuals to look at these, come up with the conclusions

0:53:18 > 0:53:21and recommendations to stop any of this activity happening in the

0:53:21 > 0:53:26future. I don't think the motion before the Assembly next week is

0:53:26 > 0:53:30unreasonable because it is asking the committee to convene, it is

0:53:30 > 0:53:35asking the committee to look at when were the allegations first made to

0:53:35 > 0:53:39the First Minister, who did he appoint a look into those

0:53:39 > 0:53:42allegations and, importantly, what action did he take to actually stop

0:53:42 > 0:53:46those actions occurring in the future? What the First Minister has

0:53:46 > 0:53:51done is being very specific on the ministerial code and whether the

0:53:51 > 0:53:55answer he provided to my colleague Darren Millar and the answer he gave

0:53:55 > 0:53:59to the Assembly two weeks contradicting each other...So you

0:53:59 > 0:54:02are not happy with what you have got at the moment? You are not content

0:54:02 > 0:54:05out what the First Minister has called for will get to the bottom of

0:54:05 > 0:54:10what you want to see?No, because there are wider issues to look at.

0:54:10 > 0:54:13Senior people within the Welsh Government have pointed serious

0:54:13 > 0:54:17accusations at the First Minister's office and the First Minister

0:54:17 > 0:54:21himself. This isn't a point, a political point when such

0:54:21 > 0:54:30allegations are made.But how is he incorrect? You were asking him about

0:54:30 > 0:54:35allegations of bullying and he said no specific allegation of bullying

0:54:35 > 0:54:37was ever presented either formally or informally. That has answered

0:54:37 > 0:54:43your question.There are wider issues that Leighton Andrews, and I

0:54:43 > 0:54:48know he is prepared to give public evidence, so is the former special

0:54:48 > 0:54:52adviser, and others who have come forward since.But you asked about

0:54:52 > 0:54:57bullying and the First Minister said no evidence was given and neither

0:54:57 > 0:55:03was that word used in that way.What he said was specific allegations of

0:55:03 > 0:55:07bullying. Leighton Andrews has said it wasn't just him, they were four

0:55:07 > 0:55:13other ministers. That is why we need the scrutiny, cross-party, Labour,

0:55:13 > 0:55:18Plaid Cymru, Conservative and also Ukip, to come together, convene,

0:55:18 > 0:55:22investigate and bring a report to the Assembly that can be done in

0:55:22 > 0:55:26public for anyone who wants to give evidence to the committee would be

0:55:26 > 0:55:31called to give evidence. I don't think that is unreasonable. And

0:55:31 > 0:55:35importantly, if there is a hint that this type of activity is continuing

0:55:35 > 0:55:38within the Welsh Government, that committee will make recommendations

0:55:38 > 0:55:42to the Assembly to make sure it doesn't continue. Surely is that --

0:55:42 > 0:55:47that is what we stand for in public life, to get the true for the people

0:55:47 > 0:55:50of Wales.But it doesn't seem as if you are going to get the support of

0:55:50 > 0:55:55your fellow Assembly Members. Labour will support Carwyn Jones' motion,

0:55:55 > 0:55:59Plaid Cymru will not be supporting you. Do you think you have lost the

0:55:59 > 0:56:05argument?I hope not. The motion will go before the Assembly on

0:56:05 > 0:56:08Wednesday, the Labour amendment is on the order paper. It will be

0:56:08 > 0:56:11interesting to see whether the Labour group deployed the whip and

0:56:11 > 0:56:15with their members to vote accordingly because, as I said, if

0:56:15 > 0:56:19you look at our motion, it merely seeks to establish when the First

0:56:19 > 0:56:23Minister was aware off the allegation, which he recognises and

0:56:23 > 0:56:27acknowledged in the chamber actually happened, who did her point and what

0:56:27 > 0:56:31representation was presented to him to deal with these issues. And if we

0:56:31 > 0:56:34can't get at the bottom of those kind of activities going on at the

0:56:34 > 0:56:38heart of Welsh Government, which have been identified by a former

0:56:38 > 0:56:45senior minister, what on earth can we get to the bottom of?I guess

0:56:45 > 0:56:50there is an oval issue here of how inappropriate behaviour, harassment,

0:56:50 > 0:56:54bullying, is dealt with in politics. It is a couple of weeks ago since

0:56:54 > 0:56:59the leaders of all the critical parties to a new code of conduct.It

0:56:59 > 0:57:05hasn't been completed.To what extent do you think that we'll get

0:57:05 > 0:57:08to grips with the problem of harassment and bullying within the

0:57:08 > 0:57:13Assembly?I don't think this is a party political issue. Nobody

0:57:13 > 0:57:17believes that that type of behaviour has any place in life at all,

0:57:17 > 0:57:22whether in the private or public sector.Has it been taken seriously

0:57:22 > 0:57:26enough in the Assembly?I think so and I think it will be rooted out if

0:57:26 > 0:57:30it did exist. But here we have an example where accusations have been

0:57:30 > 0:57:35levelled at the heart of the Welsh Government, the First Minister's

0:57:35 > 0:57:38office, that have an impact on mental health of individuals

0:57:38 > 0:57:41concerned, that have been pointed to as creating a toxic environment in

0:57:41 > 0:57:45the Welsh Government and a bullying environment and a bullying culture.

0:57:45 > 0:57:48All those things are very serious allegations that if they were

0:57:48 > 0:57:52levelled against any other body at all, you would have the enquiry --

0:57:52 > 0:57:58the inquiry...What is the Conservatives' procedure if

0:57:58 > 0:58:03something like that happened in your party?The Prime Minister brought

0:58:03 > 0:58:07that four with two weeks ago now. It is a revised procedure but that is

0:58:07 > 0:58:12the procedure of the Welsh Conservatives in the Assembly. An

0:58:12 > 0:58:15independent person comes in, is advised on a legal basis as to how

0:58:15 > 0:58:22to take the enquiry forward -- the inquiry forward...That was two

0:58:22 > 0:58:26weeks ago, there was nothing before them.They were protocols in place

0:58:26 > 0:58:29but we recognise that they needed to be toughened up. What we are looking

0:58:29 > 0:58:33at this week, as we look forward to Wednesday, is a motion on the order

0:58:33 > 0:58:37paper for Assembly Members to vote on and I hope that they will vote on

0:58:37 > 0:58:41that motion in a transparent and open weight rather than the width to

0:58:41 > 0:58:45vote for a government amendment that seeks to take out the process that

0:58:45 > 0:58:48ultimately would get to the bottom of these allegations, because we

0:58:48 > 0:58:52would all benefit from that process. It is open, transparent and get the

0:58:52 > 0:58:57answers we require.Thank you very much for your time.

0:58:57 > 0:58:59It's meant to be the independent watchdog,

0:58:59 > 0:59:02the voice of the patient against authority, but this programme

0:59:02 > 0:59:04has been told members of Wales' Community Health Councils

0:59:04 > 0:59:06have been told not to criticise or embarrass the Welsh Government

0:59:06 > 0:59:09while it is considering whether or not to scrap them.

0:59:09 > 0:59:11One AM has told us such behaviour would amount to

0:59:11 > 0:59:13a "total dereliction of duty",

0:59:13 > 0:59:16but the Chair of the CHC Board says the claims are untrue.

0:59:16 > 0:59:19Cemlyn Davies has this exclusive report.

0:59:19 > 0:59:23Two years ago, hundreds turned out to protest against plans

0:59:23 > 0:59:26to downgrade maternity services at Glan Clwyd Hospital

0:59:26 > 0:59:28in Bodelwyddan.

0:59:28 > 0:59:33The proposals were later scrapped and many local campaigners said

0:59:33 > 0:59:36the community health council for North Wales

0:59:36 > 0:59:39played an important part in getting the decision reversed.

0:59:39 > 0:59:42Across the country, there are seven CHCs,

0:59:42 > 0:59:45one for each health board.

0:59:45 > 0:59:48It's their job to speak up for patients, but the Welsh Government

0:59:48 > 0:59:53wants to get rid of them and create a single national body instead.

0:59:53 > 0:59:55The chair of the CHC Board says the consultation process

0:59:55 > 0:59:58on the Government's proposals has been positive

0:59:58 > 1:00:03and she's confident a suitable new arrangement will be found.

1:00:03 > 1:00:07I'm not overly concerned because there is always a tendency

1:00:07 > 1:00:11to over-egg the custard as far as words are concerned

1:00:11 > 1:00:14because actually the whole reason for consultation

1:00:14 > 1:00:17is for minds to be changed.

1:00:17 > 1:00:19We've all got an important role to play.

1:00:19 > 1:00:22We need a service provider that is effective and efficient,

1:00:22 > 1:00:25that meets the patients' needs, we need a voice like ourselves

1:00:25 > 1:00:28to make sure that there is a voice that is impartial,

1:00:28 > 1:00:33looking for patients' interests, so we have all got a role play.

1:00:33 > 1:00:38This North Wales AM appreciates what the local CHC has done

1:00:38 > 1:00:42for patients in his region and he's worried what might happen next.

1:00:42 > 1:00:46To lose that kind of integrity in terms of the voice

1:00:46 > 1:00:50of the patient, I think, would be an unmitigated disaster,

1:00:50 > 1:00:55and to move from an organisation that is deeply rooted

1:00:55 > 1:00:57in the communities of North Wales with local representatives

1:00:57 > 1:01:00drawn from across the north to what potentially could be

1:01:00 > 1:01:03a very remote national body, no doubt based in Cardiff,

1:01:03 > 1:01:05would be a terrible, terrible loss.

1:01:05 > 1:01:09The Welsh Government's consultation process,

1:01:09 > 1:01:13which some critics have described as cosmetic, ended in September.

1:01:13 > 1:01:17All the CHCs gave their response but even though they are supposed

1:01:17 > 1:01:21to be watchdogs, I've learned that CHC staff across Wales

1:01:21 > 1:01:25have been asked by senior colleagues not to overly criticise

1:01:25 > 1:01:29or embarrass the Welsh Government over its proposals.

1:01:29 > 1:01:33One CHC member told me that's why their community health council's

1:01:33 > 1:01:37response to the consultation was toned down.

1:01:37 > 1:01:39It's not true.

1:01:39 > 1:01:42I know my staff and members have worked really hard

1:01:42 > 1:01:46during the consultation period and I just think it's unfair

1:01:46 > 1:01:50and irresponsible for this rumour to be circulating.

1:01:50 > 1:01:53If it was to be proven, and I've got good reason to think

1:01:53 > 1:01:57there is evidence of this, would that be of concern to you?

1:01:57 > 1:01:59Of course, of course.

1:01:59 > 1:02:01But it's not true.

1:02:01 > 1:02:06To suggest that people should not embarrass the Government, I think,

1:02:06 > 1:02:10is a total dereliction of duty and if this is the case,

1:02:10 > 1:02:14I think the Cabinet Secretary really has to act.

1:02:14 > 1:02:18The Welsh Government said people should be free to comment openly

1:02:18 > 1:02:21and honestly on any consultation process, especially one that

1:02:21 > 1:02:25potentially affects the future of their organisation.

1:02:25 > 1:02:29CHCs were established in 1974 but the Welsh Government doesn't

1:02:29 > 1:02:32believe they are flexible enough to respond to today's health

1:02:32 > 1:02:34service, where services are increasingly provided

1:02:34 > 1:02:36across boundaries, both geographical and organisational.

1:02:36 > 1:02:40CHCs don't consider social care issues either.

1:02:40 > 1:02:43And so the Government wants to create a new independent body

1:02:43 > 1:02:48similar to the Scottish Health Council.

1:02:48 > 1:02:54It was only established in 2005 but serious questions have been

1:02:54 > 1:02:58raised about its effectiveness and its role is now under review.

1:02:58 > 1:03:02The Chair of the Scottish Parliament's Health Committee

1:03:02 > 1:03:06made his concerns clear in a meeting earlier this year.

1:03:06 > 1:03:09I am failing to see what we get for our money

1:03:09 > 1:03:11and I think Richard is absolutely right,

1:03:11 > 1:03:14I think you are toothless hamster, I really do.

1:03:14 > 1:03:19I don't see where you are adding value in this and I think this needs

1:03:19 > 1:03:23a major overhaul of some kind if we are going to genuinely have

1:03:23 > 1:03:29some sort of transparency processes that patients and the public

1:03:29 > 1:03:33generally engage in because at the moment we do not.

1:03:33 > 1:03:37There has also been criticism of the decision taken

1:03:37 > 1:03:42by the then Labour government to scrap CHC is in England in 2003.

1:03:42 > 1:03:46Andy Burnham, Labour Health Secretary between 2009 and 2010,

1:03:46 > 1:03:51has said the abolition of Community Health Councils

1:03:51 > 1:03:53was not the government's finest moment.

1:03:53 > 1:03:56And in a highly critical report following the Mid Staffordshire

1:03:56 > 1:04:00scandal, where hundreds of patients had died amid appalling levels

1:04:00 > 1:04:04of care at Stafford Hospital, Sir Robert Francis said it's clear

1:04:04 > 1:04:08that what replaced CHCs had failed to produce an improved voice

1:04:08 > 1:04:13for patients and the public but achieved the opposite.

1:04:13 > 1:04:17Stafford Hospital had an unusually high mortality rate and the man

1:04:17 > 1:04:21who compiled those stats believes issues could have been addressed

1:04:21 > 1:04:26sooner had the local CHC not been scrapped.

1:04:26 > 1:04:30Community Health Councils would have been able to see our mortality rate,

1:04:30 > 1:04:34would have been able to say to the health care commission

1:04:34 > 1:04:36as it then was, "Look, this particular hospital,

1:04:36 > 1:04:40"our local hospital has had these alerts, have you investigated,

1:04:40 > 1:04:42"have you looked to see if there's a problem?"

1:04:42 > 1:04:45They could act independently and what has happened since then

1:04:45 > 1:04:49is there has been no effective replacement of them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:51I think it has been part of the dumbing down

1:04:51 > 1:04:53of the voice of patients.

1:04:53 > 1:04:57The Welsh Government told us the Health Secretary

1:04:57 > 1:05:00has had positive discussions with CHC representatives

1:05:00 > 1:05:03and the government is considering the large number of responses

1:05:03 > 1:05:09received to the consultation.

1:05:09 > 1:05:09received to the consultation.

1:05:09 > 1:05:12A few years ago, Welsh councils were bracing themselves

1:05:12 > 1:05:15for being cut from the current 22 down to as few as eight.

1:05:15 > 1:05:17Now they seem to be saying that's off the agenda

1:05:17 > 1:05:20and the Welsh Government needs to get off their backs

1:05:20 > 1:05:22and let them do their job.

1:05:22 > 1:05:24So, is council reform now firmly off the table?

1:05:24 > 1:05:27And if so, what changes, if any, should there be?

1:05:27 > 1:05:31Debbie Wilcox is Chair of the Welsh Local Government Association

1:05:31 > 1:05:37and leader of Newport Council, and is with me now.

1:05:37 > 1:05:44Thank you for coming in. As you see the current structures, and we've

1:05:44 > 1:05:49spent years discussing this, are they fit for purpose, 22 councils?

1:05:49 > 1:05:52Of course they are. It is the front door of where the local residents

1:05:52 > 1:05:55walk through and the challenge with local councils and local

1:05:55 > 1:06:03councillors. We are delivering local policies for local people. What we

1:06:03 > 1:06:08need to do is ensure, and I put this gauntlet down to the 22 council

1:06:08 > 1:06:11leaders and the senior politicians in local government that came to our

1:06:11 > 1:06:15conference on Thursday in Cardiff, the Corner was certainly laid down

1:06:15 > 1:06:22that we need to respond to the local government Bill, the issues of my

1:06:22 > 1:06:26nation and if we are going to do something about that, we really must

1:06:26 > 1:06:29carry out what we said we are going to do. No more prevarication, no

1:06:29 > 1:06:36more trying to, this subterfuge or skirmishes around, if we need to

1:06:36 > 1:06:40lead that change, we need to have an open and on issues -- honest

1:06:40 > 1:06:47dialogue about that.What are you proposing?The dialogue is

1:06:47 > 1:06:50completely open and at the moment the page is also clear about how we

1:06:50 > 1:06:55should do that. I have suggested to local governor colleagues that they

1:06:55 > 1:07:01go away and discuss and come up with ideas.But that could take years,

1:07:01 > 1:07:12couldn't it?The regional areas grew from local government and we can do

1:07:12 > 1:07:15the same on regional working. If we know what can work, we can put that

1:07:15 > 1:07:20forward.You are seeing this needs to be done urgently, but you are

1:07:20 > 1:07:24saying dialogue, a clear page, go and discuss, that is kicking it into

1:07:24 > 1:07:30the long grass.We have many things that are operating really well. The

1:07:30 > 1:07:37four regional partnerships. The one I am involved in, the Cardiff City

1:07:37 > 1:07:41deal, working really well. We have already brought £38 million of

1:07:41 > 1:07:44investment to the south-east Wales region with that. Moving forward,

1:07:44 > 1:07:48there are lots of plans in place. There is a matter of urgency. If we

1:07:48 > 1:07:53don't come up with these ourselves now, the Welsh Government will have

1:07:53 > 1:07:58every right to say, we have heard it all before and we will mandate. We

1:07:58 > 1:08:02don't want moderation because what we want is to work on it for

1:08:02 > 1:08:06ourselves, to present things that are workable.But in the past you

1:08:06 > 1:08:12have resisted, not you personally, resisted every change. In 2012, you

1:08:12 > 1:08:18mentioned the education consortia passed with driving up standards in

1:08:18 > 1:08:21Wales, back in 2012 Welsh Local Government Association said that

1:08:21 > 1:08:24would fundamentally damage education services, would fiercely resist any

1:08:24 > 1:08:28moves by the Welsh Government. You were wrong then and you are wrong

1:08:28 > 1:08:37now.There is a sign on the door now from May 2017 and from June 2017 the

1:08:37 > 1:08:39Welsh Local Government Association says, under new management. I am the

1:08:39 > 1:08:45new leader and half of the leaders in Wales are new, certainly in the

1:08:45 > 1:08:53Labour group. I think Andrew Morgan in bomber cannot have is the longest

1:08:53 > 1:09:01serving and that is three years. -- Rhondda Cynon Taf Council. We except

1:09:01 > 1:09:04perhaps that was aliens in the past was not as helpful as it could be

1:09:04 > 1:09:10but it was this opportunity to show that we can change.But the problems

1:09:10 > 1:09:15are still there, that 22 authorities are just too small. That's why we

1:09:15 > 1:09:18had five education authorities in special measures. They are too small

1:09:18 > 1:09:23to be able to do the work and you are resisting the answer, which is

1:09:23 > 1:09:27more collaboration, working more closely together.We are not

1:09:27 > 1:09:30resisting more collaboration. What I want with the Welsh Government, and

1:09:30 > 1:09:35I put that offered to them today, is that we can work collaboratively so

1:09:35 > 1:09:38we can show how we can work better together but let it grow

1:09:38 > 1:09:44incrementally and quickly. We do have to make sure that it is done in

1:09:44 > 1:09:47a reasonable timescale. And we will set out those areas and we will set

1:09:47 > 1:09:51out those timescales in that discussion with the new Cabinet

1:09:51 > 1:09:57Secretary and I am looking forward to working with.Would it be fair to

1:09:57 > 1:10:00say that you are changing the way you are working but you are not

1:10:00 > 1:10:07really, it seems to me, offering any alternatives.It is Sunday today, I

1:10:07 > 1:10:11put that gauntlet down to my fellow council leaders on Thursday, it has

1:10:11 > 1:10:16only been a couple of days, give us a chance.But you have known about

1:10:16 > 1:10:20this for ages. The mentation to work more closely together was made two

1:10:20 > 1:10:26years ago.And there are plenty of policy areas that we have had and

1:10:26 > 1:10:28previous policy discussions. Now with the time to bring that together

1:10:28 > 1:10:38quickly and six in glee. How quickly? If we can put a timescale

1:10:38 > 1:10:41on it, I would not want to be talking about this in three months'

1:10:41 > 1:10:45time.So in three months, you are asking your council leader

1:10:45 > 1:10:50colleagues in Wales to go away, have a dialogue, a clear page, and

1:10:50 > 1:10:54discuss the fundamental changes to the way you work together.In the

1:10:54 > 1:10:58day job that I did for a very long time, I couldn't prepare a group of

1:10:58 > 1:11:02students and say, the exam is on June the 20th, I haven't got them

1:11:02 > 1:11:09ready for it. I am very used to working to timescales. I have spent

1:11:09 > 1:11:13a lifetime working to timetables and timescales. Let's say three months

1:11:13 > 1:11:17and let's see where we are them. If we need a bit more time to get it

1:11:17 > 1:11:22right, who is going to hold up for a month or so? No one. But we need a

1:11:22 > 1:11:25sense of rigour in this because we have got a determination that we

1:11:25 > 1:11:29need to do well.What is wrong with being mandated to do things like

1:11:29 > 1:11:34this? Just whispering to viewers, the Welsh Government has put in a

1:11:34 > 1:11:37Bill that you have to work more closely together. That is what Mark

1:11:37 > 1:11:43Drakeford is saying. What is wrong with that?All I am doing is turning

1:11:43 > 1:11:48that around and saying, isn't it best to tell you where we can work

1:11:48 > 1:11:52more closely together. Let me give you an example for the former Gwent

1:11:52 > 1:11:56region, where my council is. Newport is the lowest spending council in

1:11:56 > 1:12:01terms of many of its services. We were forced to work together with

1:12:01 > 1:12:06the other Gwent authorities and that would cost us more so we are already

1:12:06 > 1:12:10doing things at the cheapest cost we can in certain areas. So it would be

1:12:10 > 1:12:14madness to be forced to work together, that is going to cost is

1:12:14 > 1:12:21in you put more money, more salary costs, more Arab costs. What we are

1:12:21 > 1:12:30seeing is, let us get together to work together -- more out costs. You

1:12:30 > 1:12:34can eat humble pie, you said about the 2012 issue of the education

1:12:34 > 1:12:38consortia, the local government was wrong then. I was at a meeting

1:12:38 > 1:12:41yesterday when a lady asked me about judicial review and I said, I don't

1:12:41 > 1:12:50know what that means. I am never backward in coming forward because

1:12:50 > 1:12:53when I know something, because I think the public would prefer that.

1:12:53 > 1:12:57But let's work to timetables and let's get it done.But you have

1:12:57 > 1:13:01given an example of where you should not be working more closely together

1:13:01 > 1:13:04but you won't give me an example of how you could be working more

1:13:04 > 1:13:11closely together.I think we have got two fantastic examples now. The

1:13:11 > 1:13:14regional partnerships. The Cardiff City dear one, we have already

1:13:14 > 1:13:20invested £38 million into the region, we have got the Swansea City

1:13:20 > 1:13:26deal, so we have already shown that we can work well together. We are

1:13:26 > 1:13:32showing real tangible outcomes.So from your point of view, very

1:13:32 > 1:13:38quickly, 22 is here to stay?22 is here to stay, unless the need arises

1:13:38 > 1:13:43that we need to do some changes within that.There we are. Thank you

1:13:43 > 1:13:45very much for your time.

1:13:45 > 1:13:47That's it from us for another week.

1:13:47 > 1:13:49You can see more political news on Wales Live,

1:13:49 > 1:13:52that's here on BBC One Wales on Wednesday evening at 10:30pm.

1:13:52 > 1:13:54We're always on Twitter of course, @walespolitics, but for now,

1:13:54 > 1:13:56from me and all the team, diolch am wylio,

1:13:56 > 1:13:57thanks for watching.

1:13:57 > 1:13:58thanks for watching.