0:00:41 > 0:00:42Morning, everyone.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics -
0:00:44 > 0:00:46your inside briefing on all the big
0:00:46 > 0:00:48political stories happening in Westminster and beyond.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52Coming up on today's show.
0:00:52 > 0:00:53Coming up on today's show.
0:00:55 > 0:01:09The decision to release serial sex attacker John Worboys...
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Does the Government now "look more like the country it represents"?
0:01:11 > 0:01:14After a tricky reshuffle, we speak to one of the new faces sitting
0:01:14 > 0:01:16around the Cabinet table - the immigration minister
0:01:16 > 0:01:17Caroline Nokes.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Does the Government have a clearer idea about what our future
0:01:21 > 0:01:23Later in the programme:
0:01:23 > 0:01:26reconnect politics with the people.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28And what's on the horizon as we begin another
0:01:28 > 0:01:30exciting political year?
0:01:39 > 0:01:41All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43And sitting around our top table today, I'm joined
0:01:43 > 0:01:45by some familiar faces.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47We tried a reshuffle of our own but they simply refused
0:01:47 > 0:01:49to budge: Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:01:49 > 0:01:53and Steve Richards.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017, Theresa May actually went
0:01:56 > 0:01:59in to the Christmas break in relatively good political health.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02So, what better way to kick off 2018 than by shaking up her top team
0:02:02 > 0:02:03and reasserting her authority?
0:02:03 > 0:02:08But as she found this week, things don't always go according to plan.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19If you're going to carry out major surgery on your Government, you need
0:02:19 > 0:02:23to be sure the prognosis is good.
0:02:23 > 0:02:24to be sure the prognosis is good.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28It was a picture of health to begin with, a fresh,
0:02:28 > 0:02:30new team at Party HQ, but before long, complications
0:02:30 > 0:02:35arose.
0:02:35 > 0:02:35arose.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Justine Greening, who's had a rocky time at Education, decided
0:02:38 > 0:02:39she'd had enough.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41She quit the Government rather than accept a
0:02:41 > 0:02:42sideways move.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45While Jeremy Hunt refused to budge from his job at
0:02:45 > 0:02:49Health.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51He even left his meeting having added social care to his job
0:02:51 > 0:02:55title.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58There was a fresher look among the junior ministerial ranks.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00But when the new Cabinet met on Tuesday morning, it looked...
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Well, very much like the old one.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06Normally loyal Conservative grandee Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"
0:03:06 > 0:03:08The state of the NHS then caused more pain.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10Dozens of senior doctors wrote to the Prime Minister saying conditions
0:03:10 > 0:03:12in some hospitals were becoming intolerable.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16Patients were dying prematurely.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18We have now clearly reached the point where the NHS
0:03:18 > 0:03:20cannot meet the standards of care that we would,
0:03:20 > 0:03:25all of us in the NHS, ministers included, want to provide.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29At Prime Minister's Questions, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
0:03:29 > 0:03:31pressed on the bruise.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34We know the Prime Minister recognises there is a
0:03:34 > 0:03:36crisis in our NHS, because she wanted to sack
0:03:36 > 0:03:42the Health Secretary last week but was too weak to do it.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Mr Corbyn announced his own reshuffle towards the end of the
0:03:45 > 0:03:46week, with a surprising return to the front
0:03:46 > 0:03:48bench for Clive Lewis, who
0:03:48 > 0:03:52has been cleared of sexual harassment claims.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57While two other Labour MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and
0:03:57 > 0:04:02Ivan Lewis, have been referred to an independent disciplinary
0:04:02 > 0:04:03panel over allegations of sexual misconduct.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06On Friday, US President Donald Trump raised the temperature, cancelling
0:04:06 > 0:04:09his visit to the UK next month to open the new American Embassy.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Calling the decision to relocate the building to an off
0:04:12 > 0:04:15location is a bad deal.
0:04:15 > 0:04:23His friends on this side of the pond suspected
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Just maybe, Sadiq Khan, Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party
0:04:26 > 0:04:30planning mass protests, maybe those optics he didn't like the look of.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Nigel Farage also set pulses racing with this:
0:04:33 > 0:04:34I'm reaching the point of
0:04:34 > 0:04:36thinking that we should have a second referendum because...
0:04:36 > 0:04:37On what?
0:04:37 > 0:04:41On EU membership.
0:04:41 > 0:04:42The whole thing?!
0:04:42 > 0:04:43Of course, of course.
0:04:43 > 0:04:44The Conservatives hope focusing on the
0:04:44 > 0:04:46environment will bring the party back to health.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48The Prime Minister teamed up with her new eco-warrior
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, to crack down on the use of
0:04:51 > 0:04:52plastics.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55We must reduce the demand for plastic, reduce the number of
0:04:55 > 0:04:57plastics in circulation and improve our recycling rates.
0:04:57 > 0:04:58It all seems strangely reminiscent of someone who
0:04:58 > 0:05:02once said, vote blue, go green.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06In another tricky week that's left the
0:05:06 > 0:05:11PM looking a little green around the gills.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Now, let's pick up on a story which broke overnight: the new
0:05:22 > 0:05:23Justice Secretary David Gauke is considering a judicial review
0:05:23 > 0:05:25of the decision to release the serial sex attacker
0:05:25 > 0:05:29John Worboys on parole.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Earlier this month the Parole Board announced that he would be released
0:05:32 > 0:05:34under strict licence conditions.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum of eight years for drugging
0:05:37 > 0:05:38and sexually assaulting 12 women.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41However, it's thought he may have carried out as many as 100 rapes
0:05:41 > 0:05:47and sexual assaults on women in London in the early 2000s.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55I will take this to the panel first. This is obviously a very emotive
0:05:55 > 0:05:59case, and people get very worked up about it, but the politics of the
0:05:59 > 0:06:04Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a judicial review against the body
0:06:04 > 0:06:07which is really under the supervision of his own department,
0:06:07 > 0:06:12this gets a little odd.Justice Secretary criticises Justice
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Department shock. There is a whiff of panic in the Government over this
0:06:15 > 0:06:20now. I think David Gauke's decision is emblematic of that. For whatever
0:06:20 > 0:06:23reason, the Government have found themselves on the wrong side of
0:06:23 > 0:06:27public opinion on this. An appalling mass serial rapist is about to be
0:06:27 > 0:06:32let out of prison this week, having served less than ten years for
0:06:32 > 0:06:38crimes most of which he wasn't even prosecuted for. They have seven or
0:06:38 > 0:06:41eight days to do this judicial review, and David Gauke has only
0:06:41 > 0:06:46done it because he is under pressure from other Cabinet ministers. The
0:06:46 > 0:06:49entire Justice Department and justice policy has really been
0:06:49 > 0:06:53interested for up to seven years because the Tory Government really
0:06:53 > 0:07:00can't make up its mind between a liberal justice establishment is
0:07:00 > 0:07:04based on rehabilitation and less time in prison and the more
0:07:04 > 0:07:08traditional Tory authoritarian lock them up and throw the key away
0:07:08 > 0:07:14system, and the consequence is today's decision. You have had five
0:07:14 > 0:07:22Justice Secretary is, from the king of soft justice himself, Ken
0:07:23 > 0:07:27of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke, and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's
0:07:27 > 0:07:32no huge surprise that the system is now in a bit of a mess.If Tom is
0:07:32 > 0:07:35right that the Government are playing catch up on John Worboys
0:07:35 > 0:07:40because of the huge public outcry, is it nonetheless the right thing to
0:07:40 > 0:07:45do?It seems to me the parole board breached their own rules. The
0:07:45 > 0:07:48victims have a right to make representations. We know that some
0:07:48 > 0:07:54of the victims whose cases were brought, and again, he is not
0:07:54 > 0:08:01convicted as a serial rapist because those cases one brought to court, a
0:08:01 > 0:08:08decision made by Kia Starmer, then the Director of Public Prosecutions.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12The other fundamental issue is a lot of what Tom was saying, that the
0:08:12 > 0:08:15Tory Government is out of touch, as I think all of the establishment and
0:08:15 > 0:08:22party leaders are. Is this ridiculous nonsense that someone is
0:08:22 > 0:08:28released halfway through a sentence, if you are sentenced to ten years or
0:08:28 > 0:08:32whatever, you should be serving the full sentence, and maybe six months
0:08:32 > 0:08:36off for good behaviour, or better still, more years on for bad
0:08:36 > 0:08:40behaviour. I think the British public think the justice system is
0:08:40 > 0:08:44an absolute joke, and they think that because it is.You raise an
0:08:44 > 0:08:48interesting point about what the public care about versus what is
0:08:48 > 0:08:52debated at Westminster. We spent an enormous amount of last year talking
0:08:52 > 0:08:56about Brexit, to the exclusion of most other things. A few other
0:08:56 > 0:09:01issues have raised their heads this week, Steve. First and foremost, the
0:09:01 > 0:09:05NHS has been causing more than a few political problems for the
0:09:05 > 0:09:10Government.If Brexit wasn't swamping everything, this would be
0:09:10 > 0:09:15the overwhelming issue. Voters are much more concerned about this than
0:09:15 > 0:09:20anything else, with good cause. At some point, there will have to be a
0:09:20 > 0:09:27grown discussion about funding of the NHS and how we pay for it.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Whether that will be possible in the current climate I doubt. But I don't
0:09:31 > 0:09:35think it's entirely impossible because I think the crisis will
0:09:35 > 0:09:44intensify. In a way, that has been overlooked, that 2017 election
0:09:44 > 0:09:47partly accepted miraculously in British politics that to get
0:09:47 > 0:09:51improvements in some services you have to pay for it. So, maybe there
0:09:51 > 0:09:55will be a grown-up debate, but don't hold your breath. In the meantime,
0:09:55 > 0:10:00it will be an issue that Theresa May will have to keep at least one eye
0:10:00 > 0:10:07on, as well as trying to negotiate the impossible with Brexit.At PMQs,
0:10:07 > 0:10:12the Prime Minister said the NHS was the best prepared it had ever been,
0:10:12 > 0:10:18and doctors were saying that patients were dying prematurely. In
0:10:18 > 0:10:26the short-term, political damage absolutely. The tanks are parked on
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Labour territory there. The general consensus in the country is not that
0:10:29 > 0:10:35they trust the Tories on the NHS, which is a big issue for them. A lot
0:10:35 > 0:10:40of the problems are down to the fact that we're getting older and living
0:10:40 > 0:10:43longer, and there are amazing treatments, operations and drugs
0:10:43 > 0:10:48that can keep us alive. We see it as a problem but it is a wonderful
0:10:48 > 0:10:50miracle of modern science and medicine and we should be grateful
0:10:50 > 0:10:57for such problems.The big news was that we were going to get a
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Government that looked more like the rest of the country in the
0:11:00 > 0:11:04reshuffle. It turned out not to be quite as dramatic as some of us
0:11:04 > 0:11:10expected. Was it a Government fail? Depends how you define fail. It has
0:11:10 > 0:11:14taken a few days for the penny to drop, though I had my suspicions on
0:11:14 > 0:11:20the night when some of the 20 15th intake got no promotions at all. It
0:11:20 > 0:11:28was a tell-tale sign. Was it a success in that it stored to the top
0:11:28 > 0:11:35of the buildings? Not really, she just rearranged the deckchairs on
0:11:35 > 0:11:47the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was attending Cabinet rather than being
0:11:47 > 0:11:51a full cabinet minister, but the Theresa May managed to fend off the
0:11:51 > 0:11:54vultures coming for her by absolutely wilfully, it now appears,
0:11:54 > 0:12:01failing to put key rivals into key positions, people like Rory Stewart,
0:12:01 > 0:12:12Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It was a public fail but digging in
0:12:12 > 0:12:14privately.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Well, listening to all that is my first guest, Caroline Nokes.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19She was promoted to immigration minister in the reshuffle this
0:12:19 > 0:12:24week and, in that role, now attends Cabinet.
0:12:24 > 0:12:30Congratulations on the new job. You are presumably part of the making
0:12:30 > 0:12:36the Government look more like the country. Did the Prime Minister
0:12:36 > 0:12:40achieve that?I think she did. Look at the whip's offers, where there
0:12:40 > 0:12:44are more women than ever before. I remember coming in in 2010 and
0:12:44 > 0:12:50looking at a wet's office that was really mail.Why can't we have 50-50
0:12:50 > 0:12:53women in the Cabinet?We are heading in the right direction, there are
0:12:53 > 0:13:01two more women in the Cabinet.Even the Scottish Government has a policy
0:13:01 > 0:13:07of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely it's possible?We started from a
0:13:07 > 0:13:11very low base of women, even elected. I think we're doing a
0:13:11 > 0:13:15fantastic job of encouraging more women to come forward, and from more
0:13:15 > 0:13:19diverse backgrounds. It is a work in progress but we are headed in the
0:13:19 > 0:13:25right direction.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30right direction. People like Kerry bad not, who went to the same
0:13:30 > 0:13:35university as I did, the University of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground
0:13:35 > 0:13:46for Tory politicians.In the Government, there are 3% non-white
0:13:46 > 0:13:50people - not very representative?We have done a good job of attracting
0:13:50 > 0:13:52more diverse people to come and stand the rise in the Government.
0:13:52 > 0:14:02Our messages, -- our message is, we're working hard to make sure that
0:14:02 > 0:14:06those bright, young women from diverse backgrounds have a chance.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09You know, it's a process, isn't it?
0:14:09 > 0:14:11diverse backgrounds have a chance. We are all climbing up the ladder. I
0:14:11 > 0:14:16think the Cabinet looks better than it did. I have always advocated more
0:14:16 > 0:14:21women in Parliament, and the last debate I did was about getting more
0:14:21 > 0:14:24women to stand in politics, and that really matters.The big news this
0:14:24 > 0:14:29morning is the idea that the Justice Secretary may take a judicial review
0:14:29 > 0:14:33against the release of John Worboys. What is your view on that? Should do
0:14:33 > 0:14:38just this minute himself be taking judicial review is against this kind
0:14:38 > 0:14:42of decision?We will look at the victims of Worboys and we want them
0:14:42 > 0:14:46to get the support they need and to see that justice is being done. It
0:14:46 > 0:14:49is absolutely right that David Gauke is looking at a judicial review.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53None of us feel happy with the parole board decision. This is a man
0:14:53 > 0:15:00who served less than ten years, and it's a horrific number of victims.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04We can't see the parole board's decision or the reasoning for it.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07The Government could change that at a stroke and allow them to publish
0:15:07 > 0:15:12it. Should they?The Justice Secretary is reviewing the process,
0:15:12 > 0:15:15which is important. We want people to have confidence. Our justice
0:15:15 > 0:15:20system is a very old and proud one. Let's not undermine it. Let's make
0:15:20 > 0:15:25sure we get the right decisions in place.Lets get onto your own brief,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30your new brief on immigration. It means you inherit the target of
0:15:30 > 0:15:36reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. The last five
0:15:36 > 0:15:42ministers have failed, will you do it?
0:15:42 > 0:15:46The last five ministers have seen the trajectory heading down, the
0:15:46 > 0:15:52last figures we saw in the summer show it dropped significantly.It
0:15:52 > 0:15:56dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than when you came to power in 2010,
0:15:56 > 0:16:01overall net migration at 240 4000. We want to make sure this is a
0:16:01 > 0:16:04brittle open for business, that the brightest and best can come here to
0:16:04 > 0:16:11work and study. We are listening to the universities and to business via
0:16:11 > 0:16:14the immigration advisory committee...So if we are open to
0:16:14 > 0:16:17business and the brightest and best come here why have this target of
0:16:17 > 0:16:21reducing net migration to less than 100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers
0:16:21 > 0:16:25would like to get rid of it. You could have lifted and the 2017
0:16:25 > 0:16:30manifesto and got rid of quite a headache.We had a referendum in
0:16:30 > 0:16:342016 which sent a clear message that people want that target to remain,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37they want to see as reducing immigration to sustainable levels
0:16:37 > 0:16:43and we are doing just that. It is in the manifesto so that is the
0:16:43 > 0:16:47direction of travel.Immigration from outside the EU, you claimed
0:16:47 > 0:16:51that once we leave everything will change with freedom of movement, but
0:16:51 > 0:16:56net migration from outside the EU which you have complete control over
0:16:56 > 0:17:00now, it's over 100,000 in and of itself. Why hasn't that been tackled
0:17:00 > 0:17:06in the seven years that this has now been a target?We are attacking it,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09and we are doing this I have a banking measures you have heard
0:17:09 > 0:17:12about this week, working to make sure that those with bank accounts
0:17:12 > 0:17:17and are not here legally have those Fresnel cursive necessary, that is
0:17:17 > 0:17:21important, we have a raft of measures but the current Home
0:17:21 > 0:17:24Secretary and the previous one have been clear on this, we will get
0:17:24 > 0:17:29these numbers down and do it in a manageable and sustained way.It is
0:17:29 > 0:17:36not what business one. The Tory mayor Andy Street says the target
0:17:36 > 0:17:40should be more like 150,000 so businesses can attract people with
0:17:40 > 0:17:43the skills they need and George Osborne says this is economic and
0:17:43 > 0:17:47made illiterate because we need higher migration and that --
0:17:47 > 0:17:50economically illiterate.Which is why we are listening to the
0:17:50 > 0:17:53committee which will report in September which will give a solid
0:17:53 > 0:17:57expert economist's view on what migration levels should be. But it
0:17:57 > 0:18:01was in the manifesto, we are determined to head in that direction
0:18:01 > 0:18:06and bring immigration down to a sustainable level.If you're
0:18:06 > 0:18:09immigration advisor comes to you and says somebody like Andy Street is
0:18:09 > 0:18:16right we need around 150,000 coming, will you change it? Because this was
0:18:16 > 0:18:22a manifesto promise to get it down to under 110,000 a year, so what
0:18:22 > 0:18:26will that looked like if you have disabled we didn't get it right.Am
0:18:26 > 0:18:31not going to prejudge.I and asking what you will do with their view
0:18:31 > 0:18:35because you are stuck with this promise of reducing immigration to
0:18:35 > 0:18:39tens of thousands, there's not much you can do if they oppose that.You
0:18:39 > 0:18:43are telling someone who has been in the job less than a week that she
0:18:43 > 0:18:48should make a decision on the hoof in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I
0:18:48 > 0:18:51need to do is listen to the experts and come up with the direction of
0:18:51 > 0:18:55travel that satisfies those who voted Believe in the referendum,
0:18:55 > 0:19:00that satisfies businesses, like the brilliant Russell group University
0:19:00 > 0:19:04and the one in Southampton on the edge of my constituency can still
0:19:04 > 0:19:09attract the best students. This is a really difficult complicated area.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13He mentioned the need to attract the brightest students. While other
0:19:13 > 0:19:17numbers of students coming to Britain to study included in the net
0:19:17 > 0:19:20migration figures? You could help yourselves quickly by taking them
0:19:20 > 0:19:24out of it. Just about every Cabinet member wants them removed from
0:19:24 > 0:19:28official figures, why are they there?The O M as determinate
0:19:28 > 0:19:31students should be included because they are here for more than 12
0:19:31 > 0:19:38months. We must make sure we have the public services that support
0:19:38 > 0:19:42them. Many of them go home after their study as they should but it is
0:19:42 > 0:19:45important that we work with the immigration advisory committee to
0:19:45 > 0:19:51get the right answers.You are happy about students being included in the
0:19:51 > 0:19:56migration figures?And happy we've got 24% more coming to our
0:19:56 > 0:20:00universities than we had in 2010. I'm happy that we are attracting a
0:20:00 > 0:20:04great calibre of student here, I'm equally happy that our former
0:20:04 > 0:20:08feminists are cracked down on bogus colleges and close them because we
0:20:08 > 0:20:12want bright students to come here and in the -- that our former Prime
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Minister cracked down on bogus colleges and closed them.Button
0:20:17 > 0:20:21back to the panel, Steve Camille can't envy the new Immigration
0:20:21 > 0:20:27Minister being tasked with reducing immigration to a level that no other
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Immigration Minister has been able to achieve.I don't envy you, I
0:20:31 > 0:20:36don't know your Private view but I do note that most Cabinet ministers
0:20:36 > 0:20:40don't want student numbers to be part of the total figure and Theresa
0:20:40 > 0:20:46May alone is still pressing this. I've just been doing a series about
0:20:46 > 0:20:50a David Cameron. He made a series of targets which were never met, as you
0:20:50 > 0:20:55said in the interview. Good luck with that. Lots of people I meet now
0:20:55 > 0:21:01who were in favour of Brexit, like farmers, pleading, as you will know,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe to continue. They don't want to fill
0:21:05 > 0:21:14in loads more forms to get them. So there's a lot of talk
0:21:16 > 0:21:18there's a lot of talk about Nimby free movement and you have a tough
0:21:18 > 0:21:24brief.Julia, should net immigration be reduced to tens of thousands, is
0:21:24 > 0:21:28it important to the public?I find it bizarre they asked to a target
0:21:28 > 0:21:33they've never done anything to reach, certainly the immigration
0:21:33 > 0:21:36levels that they were able to control under the coalition and
0:21:36 > 0:21:40David Cameron on his own, the numbers can't be controlled
0:21:40 > 0:21:45completely, they never even came close, it was more than double,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49about 250,000. I find this row about students strange. If you live in the
0:21:49 > 0:21:53country for three or four years you need somewhere to live, you'll be
0:21:53 > 0:21:57getting buses and trains, might need to go to the hospital, is that the
0:21:57 > 0:22:01idea that these people don't exist because they are not here
0:22:01 > 0:22:05permanently? And some of them do stay. It's ridiculous. We need a
0:22:05 > 0:22:12sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about ending immigration. It was about us.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Like virtually every other country in the world choosing who gets to
0:22:15 > 0:22:19come here. If you are qualified and have a skill we need we would love
0:22:19 > 0:22:25to have you, come on in, the water is lovely! But if we just want cheap
0:22:25 > 0:22:30Labour subsidised by the taxpayer with a housing benefit, to do jobs
0:22:30 > 0:22:33not paid enough, then I don't think we should. When it comes to farmers
0:22:33 > 0:22:40we should pay more for...Julia has given quite a good explanation of
0:22:40 > 0:22:44why the target was set up and should probably stay because if there is no
0:22:44 > 0:22:48target, then cheap Labour will continue to flow in because it's the
0:22:48 > 0:22:53easiest thing for business to do. If you are limited in who you can bring
0:22:53 > 0:22:57in new might turn to the indigenous British population and start hiring
0:22:57 > 0:23:02them to do decent jobs they are perfectly capable of doing.The
0:23:02 > 0:23:06panel will be staying with us throughout the programme. Thank you
0:23:06 > 0:23:09to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration Minister, for coming in.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Now with all the other stuff that's been going on this week,
0:23:12 > 0:23:14you might be concerned we'd forgotten about the small
0:23:14 > 0:23:15matter of Brexit.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17But don't worry, it's still very much on the agenda.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Having sealed a deal on the divorce talks,
0:23:21 > 0:23:22the focus is now shifting to the future relationship.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24The EU says we can only have an 'off-the-shelf' model,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27like the deals with Norway or Canada; but the UK Government
0:23:27 > 0:23:31says we can be far more ambitious, as Elizabeth Glinka reports.
0:23:31 > 0:23:36# Do you have the time # To listen to me whine?#.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44In her Florence speech, Theresa May made it
0:23:44 > 0:23:46clear that when it comes to
0:23:46 > 0:23:49trade negotiations with the EU, the UK isn't looking for any
0:23:49 > 0:23:50off-the-shelf kind of deal.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54It wants something special and bespoke.
0:23:54 > 0:23:55I'm optimistic about what we can achieve
0:23:55 > 0:23:59by finding a creative solution to a new economic relationship that
0:23:59 > 0:24:04can support prosperity for all our peoples.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Before Christmas, the senior official in charge of Brexit
0:24:07 > 0:24:09told the Cabinet that when it comes to that
0:24:09 > 0:24:13creative solution, they
0:24:13 > 0:24:15should start thinking in terms of three baskets, what some people
0:24:15 > 0:24:16are calling managed divergence.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18The Institute for Government has been
0:24:18 > 0:24:22looking at what it means.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24Three baskets corresponds to the three areas
0:24:24 > 0:24:26that Theresa May spoke about in her Florence speech.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28We have full alignment, where we will continue to
0:24:28 > 0:24:31meet the same outcomes in the same way as we do now.
0:24:31 > 0:24:32Regulatory equivalence is where we will
0:24:32 > 0:24:34continue to meet the same outcomes as the EU
0:24:34 > 0:24:36but might go about it in a
0:24:36 > 0:24:38slightly different way.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42And then the final basket around divergence,
0:24:42 > 0:24:45where we will go about things in a different way and may choose
0:24:45 > 0:24:46to take completely different outcomes at the
0:24:46 > 0:24:48end of it.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51OK, so if we were to look at particular industries, say
0:24:51 > 0:24:53something like aviation, maybe workers' rights, we might put them
0:24:53 > 0:24:58in this basket because we are saying not much is going to change.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00It would be very difficult to put
0:25:00 > 0:25:02whole industries and whole sectors in specific baskets.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07If you take agriculture, for example, state aid
0:25:07 > 0:25:12and how much overall we can subsidise our farmers may well sit
0:25:12 > 0:25:15in full alignment, whereas issues about agricultural and environmental
0:25:15 > 0:25:17protection standards, we could continue to
0:25:17 > 0:25:19meet the same goals but
0:25:19 > 0:25:23by different means, and they can sit in the middle basket.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Whereas, actually, exactly what we subsidise
0:25:26 > 0:25:29our farmers for could be completely up to the UK and sit in the
0:25:29 > 0:25:30divergent basket.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33So it would be very difficult to put single sectors
0:25:33 > 0:25:34in single baskets.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37If the UK is looking for a high degree of access
0:25:37 > 0:25:40to the single market, then the EU will expect
0:25:40 > 0:25:43lots of things ending up in the full alignment basket,
0:25:43 > 0:25:45whereas the UK will probably want to try and pull as much as possible
0:25:45 > 0:25:49into the regulatory equivalence basket.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53Of course, the point of all this is is to remind the EU that
0:25:53 > 0:25:56when it comes to these negotiations, the UK is in a unique position
0:25:56 > 0:26:00because currently we are completely in sync.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03It's in the interests of Britain and the EU to get on
0:26:03 > 0:26:07together.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08together.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12People are thinking that it's a binary thing, we are either
0:26:12 > 0:26:15in the EU or we're out, that it's night and day, but it isn't.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16The point about managed divergence is
0:26:16 > 0:26:18that it does give us much more flexibility.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21We can decide for ourselves which bits we want to keep
0:26:21 > 0:26:24and which bits we want to amend or get rid of.
0:26:24 > 0:26:25And I think...
0:26:25 > 0:26:26I think that's a huge opportunity.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Philip Hammond and David Davies have been
0:26:28 > 0:26:30on a charm offensive in Germany this week,
0:26:30 > 0:26:32so just how are those very British baskets going down in
0:26:32 > 0:26:33Brussels?
0:26:33 > 0:26:36There is a concern that the UK will take a shopping basket,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39pick off the elements of the major trade agreements the EU has secured
0:26:39 > 0:26:41with third countries, take all those together.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44It gets the UK very close to full membership of the single
0:26:44 > 0:26:46market without any of the obligations, so I think
0:26:46 > 0:26:51they view managed divergence as another way in
0:26:51 > 0:26:55which the UK either hopes to cherry pick or have its cake and eat it.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57All member states will agree that they can't
0:26:57 > 0:26:59set a precedent with the
0:26:59 > 0:27:01UK that then sets internal challenges for themselves over the
0:27:01 > 0:27:03medium to longer term.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Now, what goes into these baskets remains a
0:27:10 > 0:27:13bit of a mystery, but of course, there are deadlines because the next
0:27:13 > 0:27:15round of talks is due to get under way
0:27:15 > 0:27:16this spring.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:27:19 > 0:27:23and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25With me now is the Shadow International Trade
0:27:25 > 0:27:29Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
0:27:29 > 0:27:37Welcome to the programme, thank you for coming back. We were learning
0:27:37 > 0:27:39about the different baskets, full alignment, regulatory alignment.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Labour say you want to give all the benefits and the single market so
0:27:43 > 0:27:50presumably want to stay as much in alignment as we do already?What
0:27:50 > 0:27:53we've said is that the government have said we could have all the
0:27:53 > 0:27:58benefits and we will hold them to that.To do that, we must keep most
0:27:58 > 0:28:05of what we can in the full alignment basket?We want to make sure we get
0:28:05 > 0:28:09as much of the benefits as we currently have once we have left the
0:28:09 > 0:28:14EU.You can't do that and diverged. Absolutely. That's the point.
0:28:14 > 0:28:19Diverges from that, whether through a trade deal with another country or
0:28:19 > 0:28:24whether it is simply because we want to deregulate our standards in the
0:28:24 > 0:28:29UK is going to cause a problem with maintaining the sort of trade we
0:28:29 > 0:28:32have with Europe. It's going to cause that economic bond. But we
0:28:32 > 0:28:37want to make sure we have a Brexit that is for jobs, for the economy
0:28:37 > 0:28:41and that's why we see the benefits of the single market, the benefits
0:28:41 > 0:28:45of the customs union, and swipe we said we wouldn't rule is off the
0:28:45 > 0:28:49table. Whereas the government precisely said it would. And that is
0:28:49 > 0:28:52the red lines that Theresa May put in place that are now causing her
0:28:52 > 0:28:57all these other problems.They've caused a few problems in policy for
0:28:57 > 0:29:01Labour as well because the closer you want to stay to single market
0:29:01 > 0:29:04rules, if we've loved the single market because that is government
0:29:04 > 0:29:10policy, more alignment would have -- if we've left. That is us accepting
0:29:10 > 0:29:14rules we had no say in making, a state you have described as being a
0:29:14 > 0:29:20vassal state.These other uses we really have to resolve. Because you
0:29:20 > 0:29:24are right, once we leave the EU that means we are not a member of the
0:29:24 > 0:29:28single market. It doesn't mean we can't trade into the single market,
0:29:28 > 0:29:34of course we can. We can do that in the same way that Norway does. But
0:29:34 > 0:29:37our economy is very different from that of Norway. And what we need to
0:29:37 > 0:29:42be sure about is when we are making our rules in this country we are
0:29:42 > 0:29:45doing it as close as possible to maintain the trade and the economic
0:29:45 > 0:29:50benefits we get in the European Union.There have been reports this
0:29:50 > 0:29:54week that Labour is working on a policy that would involve staying in
0:29:54 > 0:30:00the customs union. The Robert Peston programme on ITV...That could not
0:30:00 > 0:30:05be the case. I'm sorry to correct you on a technicality. But once you
0:30:05 > 0:30:09leave the EU you leave the treaties and it is the treaties that create
0:30:09 > 0:30:17the customs union. So we could not be a member of the customs union.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22You could be remember of a customs union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn
0:30:22 > 0:30:27was talking about on TV this morning.He was talking about the
0:30:27 > 0:30:30transition period immediately after leaving the EU. That has been our
0:30:30 > 0:30:35position for many months. We were the ones that said, in that
0:30:35 > 0:30:37transitional period, we want the status quo. We want to maintain
0:30:37 > 0:30:43things that are... We want to maintain a customs union and single
0:30:43 > 0:30:48market during that transition.Let's talk about the future after the
0:30:48 > 0:30:54transition period. Let's look at what you said you thought were the
0:30:54 > 0:30:59consequences.
0:31:04 > 0:31:09consequences. Do you still agree with that?I was specifically
0:31:09 > 0:31:13referring to, and if you go back on that quote a little bit, you will
0:31:13 > 0:31:17find we were talking about the turkey situation, which was a
0:31:17 > 0:31:21customs union agreement with the EU. That would be a very bad end point
0:31:21 > 0:31:24for us, because it would mean that the European Union ended up doing
0:31:24 > 0:31:28all the negotiations for trade for the UK. We would have to open our
0:31:28 > 0:31:34markets to any other company in -- any other country they made an
0:31:34 > 0:31:38agreement with. But that country would not have to liberalise its
0:31:38 > 0:31:42markets and open itself up to our goods and services.The common
0:31:42 > 0:31:45commercial policy is what governs all of this and binds us in with
0:31:45 > 0:31:48these trade treaties. The UK Government say they want to leave
0:31:48 > 0:31:56that. Is that the Labour position? We will be...Would you like to join
0:31:56 > 0:32:00something similar once we are no longer members of the EU?I already
0:32:00 > 0:32:05said, we believe that the benefits of what we currently have should be
0:32:05 > 0:32:08maintained as much as possible, and that means that whilst we cannot
0:32:08 > 0:32:13stay in the customs union, we should not have a turkey style customs
0:32:13 > 0:32:16union agreement, because that would be an asymmetrical relationship with
0:32:16 > 0:32:22any trading partner. What we do see as a possibility, and it is what we
0:32:22 > 0:32:33have not ruled out, which is to have a new customs union with the
0:32:33 > 0:32:36European Union, and that is something very interesting wave
0:32:36 > 0:32:41which in paragraph 31 of the cross-border trade taxation bill
0:32:41 > 0:32:46which came in on Monday from the Government, and which we debated
0:32:46 > 0:32:51them, they have actually put provision for that, a new customs
0:32:51 > 0:32:54union, where we would be an equal member.But you cannot possibly
0:32:54 > 0:32:58believe that you can have the benefits of being in a reformed
0:32:58 > 0:33:02customs union relationship with the EU and still have total freedom to
0:33:02 > 0:33:06make new trade deals. You have said you don't want anything which
0:33:06 > 0:33:09precludes us from making independent trade agreements with some of our
0:33:09 > 0:33:15bigger partners.Let's be clear about the nexus of problems we are
0:33:15 > 0:33:22trying to solve the run work our way through. You have, within the
0:33:22 > 0:33:25referendum, a clarity that people were voting for certain political
0:33:25 > 0:33:30issues, whether that was in terms of immigration, regaining sovereignty,
0:33:30 > 0:33:33or simply not paying money into Europe. All of these were things
0:33:33 > 0:33:38people thought they were voting for. If you were to be in a relationship
0:33:38 > 0:33:44in which some of those continued to be the case, where we were rule
0:33:44 > 0:33:53takers and not rule setters, as Norway is at the moment, and they
0:33:53 > 0:33:56are told they have no right to decide what the rules are going to
0:33:56 > 0:33:59be, that is a political problem which many people in this country
0:33:59 > 0:34:04would feel, what was the referendum all about if we don't achieve that?
0:34:04 > 0:34:10Let's...Just let me... I don't think it's clear, the problems we
0:34:10 > 0:34:14are trying to solve. We want to maintain a maximum economic benefit,
0:34:14 > 0:34:18to get the economic benefit of the jobs that we currently get from the
0:34:18 > 0:34:23trading relationship we have in a customs union and in a single market
0:34:23 > 0:34:27with the European Union. But to do that respecting the referendum will
0:34:27 > 0:34:31of the people for those political objectives.We understand that
0:34:31 > 0:34:40point.Labour has to bring back the 42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.We
0:34:40 > 0:34:46understand need to move you on to something else. We have heard the
0:34:46 > 0:34:51new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say today that if any... He wants new
0:34:51 > 0:34:55Tory candidates to sign up to a respect pledge that they will
0:34:55 > 0:34:58conduct themselves on Twitter and in what they say in a respectful way,
0:34:58 > 0:35:04otherwise they will be removed as candidates.Of course, that's right.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour should do it too. It raises
0:35:07 > 0:35:13questions about some Labour MPs. Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has
0:35:13 > 0:35:17had the whip suspended.An investigation is being conducted, as
0:35:17 > 0:35:22is appropriate, within all the procedures of our party. Absolutely
0:35:22 > 0:35:26right, suspended.Because of remarks he made about women and homophobic
0:35:26 > 0:35:30comments. Then you look at the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,
0:35:30 > 0:35:35against whom no action has been taken, and he has said a number of
0:35:35 > 0:35:40things, but one of them which has been heavily criticised is that he
0:35:40 > 0:35:45wanted... Well, he agreed with people who wanted to see Esther
0:35:45 > 0:35:49McVeigh lynched. We have the audio of this. Let's listen and then we
0:35:49 > 0:35:55will ask you about it.I was up in Liverpool a fortnight ago...
0:36:22 > 0:36:27And obviously, he used a word that we won't be saying on TV, but is
0:36:27 > 0:36:33that respectful language?It is not language I would have used. Earlier
0:36:33 > 0:36:39today, you have been quoting remarks that were made by the President of
0:36:39 > 0:36:43the United States which were deeply offensive and unacceptable.Yes.
0:36:43 > 0:36:49Hang on.But this is about the Labour Party...And you quoted. The
0:36:49 > 0:36:54point I am making is that he was quoting what someone else was
0:36:54 > 0:36:59saying, and I would not have chosen to do that.He was clearly quoting
0:36:59 > 0:37:03with approval, not reporting it.The underlying issue which the
0:37:03 > 0:37:10Conservatives have been trying to cover up through all the smear on
0:37:10 > 0:37:12John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who was a Department for Work and
0:37:12 > 0:37:16Pensions minister, and at a time when she was in charge of work and
0:37:16 > 0:37:22pensions as a minister, her company had been reported for breach of
0:37:22 > 0:37:27health and safety guidelines. She is one of the ministers, and for that
0:37:27 > 0:37:31reason...Jeremy Corbyn said we should stick to policies and use
0:37:31 > 0:37:35respectful language. That wasn't respect.That's what I'm doing now,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37and I'm trying to make the underlying political point about
0:37:37 > 0:37:43what's going on here. She was in charge of a department in which she
0:37:43 > 0:37:46was responsible for health and safety when her own company which
0:37:46 > 0:37:54she was a director of, a construction company, they had been
0:37:54 > 0:37:58suspended, their work had had to be suspended twice within three months
0:37:58 > 0:38:02for breach of those health and safety guidelines, putting workers
0:38:02 > 0:38:07at risk in her own company. She is also somebody...We will have to
0:38:07 > 0:38:13leave it there. Thank you very much for that. It is coming up to
0:38:13 > 0:38:2111:40am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up:
0:38:30 > 0:38:33Hello and welcome back to a New Year with Sunday Politics Wales.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36In a few minutes, some predictions for you
0:38:36 > 0:38:38on what's on the Welsh political horizon for this year,
0:38:38 > 0:38:40and the Children's Commissioner will be here
0:38:40 > 0:38:42to tell us why she feels there are gaps
0:38:42 > 0:38:46in how children's mental health issues are dealt with.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50But first the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood has kicked off
0:38:50 > 0:38:53the New Year by saying she wants to "reconnect politics
0:38:53 > 0:38:56"with the people" and set out an agenda
0:38:56 > 0:38:58for a "democratic and empowered Wales".
0:38:58 > 0:39:01But what exactly does that look like in practice?
0:39:01 > 0:39:11To discuss that and the year ahead, Leanne Wood is here with me now.
0:39:18 > 0:39:23Thank you very much for coming in. As an end result, what are you
0:39:23 > 0:39:28hoping to achieve?I want to achieve a Wales that is empowered and a
0:39:28 > 0:39:34people that are democratically enabled to shape their own future.
0:39:34 > 0:39:39At the moment Wales faces many different challenges and our
0:39:39 > 0:39:43National Assembly and devolution project is not equipped with the
0:39:43 > 0:39:46powers that we need to solve some of those problems, so we need to
0:39:46 > 0:39:51empower ourselves in terms of gaining more powers as a national
0:39:51 > 0:39:54Assembly, but also in terms of people as individuals becoming more
0:39:54 > 0:39:59empowered to be able to decide for themselves what they want.When you
0:39:59 > 0:40:05say the National Assembly isn't equipped, you have got education,
0:40:05 > 0:40:09health, there is taxation coming next year, borrowing coming this
0:40:09 > 0:40:15year, what more do you think is needed?There are constraints on the
0:40:15 > 0:40:19tax powers, for example. So the National Assembly, the government
0:40:19 > 0:40:24will be able to have an impact on things like the personal allowance.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28And all the other aspects of tags that can give you maximum
0:40:28 > 0:40:32flexibility. The fact is that decisions about Wales should be made
0:40:32 > 0:40:36in Wales and that is a prospectus that we want to go out and talk to
0:40:36 > 0:40:40people about. This is an engagement exercise. I want to ask people what
0:40:40 > 0:40:46kind of Wales we want to live in and how do we get there. My intention is
0:40:46 > 0:40:50that we get there by improving our democracy, by getting more people
0:40:50 > 0:40:53engaged in politics and by empowering ourselves to solve our
0:40:53 > 0:40:59own problems.But there is nothing concrete there. What I want is a
0:40:59 > 0:41:03sense from you, you will be going out and having conversations, but
0:41:03 > 0:41:07presumably you have got an idea in your mind about a policy that you
0:41:07 > 0:41:10can say to people, this is what we will be doing to empower at a
0:41:10 > 0:41:14community level. You say, empowerment at a community level
0:41:14 > 0:41:21through decentralisation through Wales. How does that work?I will be
0:41:21 > 0:41:25publishing a document tomorrow that outlines a set of values and
0:41:25 > 0:41:30principles and policy ideas that we could implement to chart a different
0:41:30 > 0:41:36course. Politics at a UK level is pretty grim at the moment in the
0:41:36 > 0:41:39aftermath of Brexit and there are so many people watching politics on the
0:41:39 > 0:41:42television and it seems to have very little to do with their daily lives.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46The struggles they are having, waiting for hospital appointments,
0:41:46 > 0:41:50not having enough investment in local community services, none of
0:41:50 > 0:41:53those questions are being addressed because politicians on the TV are
0:41:53 > 0:41:58just talking about things like Brexit and splits within parties. I
0:41:58 > 0:42:02want to try and move the debate on now and get people thinking about
0:42:02 > 0:42:06the kind of Wales we want to live in and to try to provide some hope for
0:42:06 > 0:42:10a future that can be different to the mess that we are in.You talk
0:42:10 > 0:42:14about values and principles, but when you are talking about the
0:42:14 > 0:42:18things that people want, they want answers, they want you to go to them
0:42:18 > 0:42:22and say, this is our plan, this is what we are suggesting should
0:42:22 > 0:42:28happen, rather than saying, tell us what you think.In the document that
0:42:28 > 0:42:33will be published tomorrow, there are range of policy suggestions...
0:42:33 > 0:42:39Like what?Reforms to the planning system, for example, to make it
0:42:39 > 0:42:43easier for people to have spaces to live and work in. There are changes
0:42:43 > 0:42:47that I propose to our democratic make-up and our democracy framework
0:42:47 > 0:42:51to encourage more people to participate. There are changes I
0:42:51 > 0:42:55propose to the education system to ensure people are fully informed
0:42:55 > 0:42:58when they participate in politics and they get involved at a community
0:42:58 > 0:43:03level. It is all about trying to raise our game as a nation by
0:43:03 > 0:43:08individually empowering people, empowering our communities, and
0:43:08 > 0:43:12ultimately empowering our nation. When you say you want to make the
0:43:12 > 0:43:17case for decisions affecting Wales to be made in Wales, we have got
0:43:17 > 0:43:21devolution, there are areas which are devolved. As I said earlier,
0:43:21 > 0:43:26taxation is on its way, borrowing is on its way. You want more taxation
0:43:26 > 0:43:31but we don't know how it will work yet. What more do you want to be
0:43:31 > 0:43:36devolved? Are you looking at things like welfare, for example?If there
0:43:36 > 0:43:41is a decision taken that affects people in Wales, I believe people in
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Wales, Democratic representatives in Wales, should make those decisions.
0:43:45 > 0:43:51It makes no sense to me that there is a parliament in Westminster with
0:43:51 > 0:43:55650 MPs, 610 of which have nothing to do with Wales whatsoever, that
0:43:55 > 0:43:59end up taking decisions that shape our economic future. Decisions about
0:43:59 > 0:44:04Wales, made in Wales, will ensure that the people with the best
0:44:04 > 0:44:10interests of Wales will make those decisions.What?Everything.
0:44:10 > 0:44:16Defence?Ultimately, yes, Plaid Cymru wants all decisions to be made
0:44:16 > 0:44:20in Wales. There is a path that gets us there and that is incremental but
0:44:20 > 0:44:25I want that to be scaled up. What is clear is that we face grave
0:44:25 > 0:44:30problems, especially in terms of our economy. There are great risks on
0:44:30 > 0:44:34the horizon, especially if we crash out of the European Union with no
0:44:34 > 0:44:40deal, with a far right, Tory type Brexit. How can we introduce
0:44:40 > 0:44:43measures that protect and safeguard those jobs and offer a real future
0:44:43 > 0:44:49for people in Wales?Does this mean you will be ramping up your calls
0:44:49 > 0:44:52for independence now? You know they will have been accusations that you
0:44:52 > 0:44:58have been independents like. When you say devolved everything, is this
0:44:58 > 0:45:02ratcheting up the cause for independence?I want to frame the
0:45:02 > 0:45:07debate in a different way. I want to think about what powers we need to
0:45:07 > 0:45:12solve the problems we have. How can we empower ourselves to gain maximum
0:45:12 > 0:45:16autonomy. But the crucial thing is that we in Wales should decide
0:45:16 > 0:45:20ourselves what powers we want. We will want to share some
0:45:20 > 0:45:24decision-making with other people. That might be other countries within
0:45:24 > 0:45:29the current UK, that might be other countries that currently are in the
0:45:29 > 0:45:32European Union. There is the whole debate about whether we remain as a
0:45:32 > 0:45:36member of the single market and so on. But the crucial point is that
0:45:36 > 0:45:40people in Wales should be empowered to decide for themselves the
0:45:40 > 0:45:44direction of our country. We could go in a number of different ways
0:45:44 > 0:45:48here. The risk is that Wales will become absorbed into a greater
0:45:48 > 0:45:53England and where is entity, where we end up losing some of the gains
0:45:53 > 0:45:57we have made through devolution. I want us to take a different path, to
0:45:57 > 0:46:02empower ourselves to make more decisions for ourselves.And are you
0:46:02 > 0:46:07confident it will be you taking that the next election? The reason I ask
0:46:07 > 0:46:10that is, to mount a challenge against the leader of Plaid Cymru,
0:46:10 > 0:46:14you can only do it every other year at the autumn conference. 2018 is
0:46:14 > 0:46:18one of those years and if one of your colleagues was minded to, this
0:46:18 > 0:46:24is when you do it, because by 2020, the next chance, it is too late. How
0:46:24 > 0:46:30confident are you that there would be a challenge your leadership?One
0:46:30 > 0:46:33of the beauties about Plaid Cymru and one of the reasons I joined
0:46:33 > 0:46:37Plaid Cymru in the first place is that we are a very Democratic party.
0:46:37 > 0:46:42How many other political parties do you know of that has the polluted --
0:46:42 > 0:46:47position of leadership that comes up for grabs every two years, a
0:46:47 > 0:46:50position every single member of the party is entitled to vote for, and
0:46:50 > 0:46:54every single member of my group in the Assembly is entitled to bid for.
0:46:54 > 0:46:59I would welcome a challenge. There is no problem there at all.But do
0:46:59 > 0:47:04you expect one?I have no idea whether there will be won or not,
0:47:04 > 0:47:08and it doesn't really matter too much, because I am really confident
0:47:08 > 0:47:13in the programme I was elected on as leader in 2012. I am committed to
0:47:13 > 0:47:17seeing that programme through. There is plenty of work still to be done
0:47:17 > 0:47:21on that front. But ultimately it is a matter for members of Plaid Cymru
0:47:21 > 0:47:26and that is the beauty of democracy. They get to decide. If they want to
0:47:26 > 0:47:32take a different direction, that is a matter for them. But I am still
0:47:32 > 0:47:35committed to doing the job I set out in 2012.Looking ahead to 2018 and
0:47:35 > 0:47:41in the context of how safe a place is politics in Wales for women, how
0:47:41 > 0:47:49confident are you that the actions you have taken over the last year or
0:47:49 > 0:47:54so have made Welsh politics a safer place for women?That is a big
0:47:54 > 0:47:59question because within society there are many dangers facing women
0:47:59 > 0:48:02within their own relationships at home, within the workplace,
0:48:02 > 0:48:06whichever workplace that they are in, but clearly recent discussions
0:48:06 > 0:48:13have put a spotlight on the kinds of dangers that women can face in the
0:48:13 > 0:48:15workplace. It is quite important that we keep that issue as a live
0:48:15 > 0:48:20issue on the agenda.The reason I am asking this, a number of complaint
0:48:20 > 0:48:26have been made against a Plaid Cymru elected Assembly Member, and after
0:48:26 > 0:48:31taking ten months to decide whether or not to investigate, the decision
0:48:31 > 0:48:34was made just before Christmas to hand over all the information to the
0:48:34 > 0:48:36standards commissioner in the Assembly and to give all the
0:48:36 > 0:48:41information to the man being complaint against, without asking
0:48:41 > 0:48:45for complainants. Does that look like something that should help and
0:48:45 > 0:48:50get more and more women to make plays when they are not happy with
0:48:50 > 0:48:57the conduct of Assembly Members?I can't comment on an ongoing process
0:48:57 > 0:49:00within Plaid Cymru. There have been frustrations with the process, which
0:49:00 > 0:49:04I have not been able to have anything to do with. That has been
0:49:04 > 0:49:09organised by a separate part of the party. We have a membership and
0:49:09 > 0:49:12disciplinary process and I am not at liberty to comment on that. But
0:49:12 > 0:49:16there were problems with our system and we took action to rectify those
0:49:16 > 0:49:22problems in our autumn conference. But have you taken action? It seems
0:49:22 > 0:49:26to me, you have taken so long to say you have not got the processes in
0:49:26 > 0:49:31place, you get the processes in place on, but then you transfer it
0:49:31 > 0:49:37to an external body.The decision that was taken by the membership and
0:49:37 > 0:49:43disciplinary panel to refer some of the complaints to external bodies
0:49:43 > 0:49:50was not something that I have been party to.Do you support it?When we
0:49:50 > 0:49:54met as party leaders in the aftermath of various sexual
0:49:54 > 0:49:58harassment allegations, one of the things that we all agreed on there,
0:49:58 > 0:50:02if there were allegations against anyone in their role as an Assembly
0:50:02 > 0:50:06Member, there was a process in place to be standards Commissioner to deal
0:50:06 > 0:50:10with that. But often these cases are not as clear and simple as that.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13They may overlap a number of boundaries and unless you have seen
0:50:13 > 0:50:17the details of the case, which I haven't, it is difficult to comment
0:50:17 > 0:50:19on them.
0:50:19 > 0:50:22Now, if last year has proved anything, it's that trying
0:50:22 > 0:50:25to predict politics these days is a bit of a mug's game.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27But that doesn't stop us trying.
0:50:27 > 0:50:29And there are some very exciting developments in prospect.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32Carl Roberts now on where 2018 might take us.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40Cardiff Bay in January is a great place to walk off
0:50:40 > 0:50:42the Christmas chocolates.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44I've been doing some of it myself this week.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47The politicians are back in the Bay after three weeks away
0:50:47 > 0:50:50and the festive period feels a distant memory now
0:50:50 > 0:50:54as they focus on the day job and the political year ahead.
0:50:54 > 0:50:58Now, we like to think of ourselves as forward-looking on the Sunday
0:50:58 > 0:51:02Politics Wales, so I have rounded up four AMs from different parties
0:51:02 > 0:51:07to get their perspective on the political priorities in 2018.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12The Ukip group in the Senedd seem to have been bickering
0:51:12 > 0:51:15with each other since they were elected in 2016.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18The pattern appears to have continued into 2018.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21Mandy Jones has replaced Nathan Gill as an AM,
0:51:21 > 0:51:24but she hasn't joined the Ukip group in the Bay
0:51:24 > 0:51:26despite being elected as a Ukip AM.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29She will sit as an independent in the Senedd.
0:51:29 > 0:51:33This Ukip AM told me he thinks the days of infighting are over
0:51:33 > 0:51:37and he's clear about what he wants to see this year.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40What's very important for our party now is to make
0:51:40 > 0:51:44sure that people realise we are still a relevant party.
0:51:44 > 0:51:48Brexit is not over, obviously, and it has got a long way to run.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53We believe that we are one of the parties, if not the only
0:51:53 > 0:51:58party, that truly reflects what the British people voted for.
0:51:58 > 0:52:02Brexit will continue to dominate politics, as it has done
0:52:02 > 0:52:04since the referendum itself.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07For Wales, there are three main things.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09The EU Withdrawal Bill, which the Welsh Government
0:52:09 > 0:52:11is still seeking changes to.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14The state of negotiations with the EU themselves.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18AMs will be watching closely to see what a deal or no deal with the EU
0:52:18 > 0:52:21could mean for key Welsh industries.
0:52:21 > 0:52:25And then there is a third question as to whether the UK Government
0:52:25 > 0:52:28is willing or able to replace the funding that Wales gets
0:52:28 > 0:52:31from the EU as a current member.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36There are new tax powers on the horizon
0:52:36 > 0:52:39for the Welsh Government, but the way those powers are used
0:52:39 > 0:52:42is on the agenda of all of the parties in the Bay.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45We are still a young democracy and we have been saying,
0:52:45 > 0:52:48especially as a party, that we need more tax-raising powers
0:52:48 > 0:52:51so that we can shape those policies in a firmer way.
0:52:51 > 0:52:54We get the block grant but we don't have the flexibility
0:52:54 > 0:52:57that tax-raising would give us.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00I think there is a debate, of course, about whether there
0:53:00 > 0:53:02should be more AMs or whether the electoral system
0:53:02 > 0:53:06of the Assembly should change, and I think that all comes
0:53:06 > 0:53:10into a discussion this year and into the spotlight, really.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13I don't think we are incompetent of being able to deal with that,
0:53:13 > 0:53:17it is just how we do it and what will we prioritise.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20Every opposition politician I have spoken to this week
0:53:20 > 0:53:23talks about holding the Labour government to account,
0:53:23 > 0:53:25holding their feet to the fire.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28They might not mind in this weather.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30But for the first time since 2013,
0:53:30 > 0:53:33there is no Wales-wide election this year.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35Does that make it more difficult?
0:53:35 > 0:53:38I would like to see our party grow in strength,
0:53:38 > 0:53:41I would like to have a better platform for the ideas we have.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44We have some fantastic ideas, some of which have been nicked by Labour,
0:53:44 > 0:53:47and I am pleased by that because it shows a sincere form of flattery,
0:53:47 > 0:53:50but I really want people to understand that there
0:53:50 > 0:53:54are alternatives and we can make a difference and we can grow
0:53:54 > 0:53:57and become the next government here in Wales.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00Historically in the Bay, Labour have run a tight ship.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03Backbenchers haven't rocked the government boat.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06There is no suggestion that will change in 2018
0:54:06 > 0:54:09but this Labour backbencher says he and his colleagues
0:54:09 > 0:54:11have been able to influence the government.
0:54:11 > 0:54:15One of the things we have had and one of the opportunities
0:54:15 > 0:54:18we have had as Labour backbenchers is a freedom to develop ideas
0:54:18 > 0:54:20and a freedom of expression.
0:54:20 > 0:54:22One of the things we have pushed for is the growth
0:54:22 > 0:54:25of the business of the everyday, the foundational economy,
0:54:25 > 0:54:28to be expressed in the Welsh Government's economic action plan.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31That will help Bargoed and we have seen it happen,
0:54:31 > 0:54:34so we have had a direct influence in government as backbenchers.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39After a tumultuous end to the Welsh political year,
0:54:39 > 0:54:44a temporary calm has returned to Cardiff Bay, but for how long?
0:54:46 > 0:54:50The issue of mental health has never had so much attention.
0:54:50 > 0:54:52And it's easy to see why.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55More than a quarter of sick days taken in the civil service
0:54:55 > 0:54:59are due to mental ill-health, according to the latest figures.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01But is the provision keeping up with demand,
0:55:01 > 0:55:03particularly among young people?
0:55:03 > 0:55:05The Children's Commissioner, Sally Holland,
0:55:05 > 0:55:07says she wants to see improvements
0:55:07 > 0:55:10and is meeting ministers next week to talk about it.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13We'll hear from her in a moment, but first I've been to
0:55:13 > 0:55:16Merthyr Tydfil, where some young people wanted to help.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18Their answer was this mental health first aid kit
0:55:18 > 0:55:21and a series of videos looking at the issues.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23Here are their thoughts.
0:55:26 > 0:55:30I think everyone suffers with some sort of issue.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33I mean, whether it is just feeling anxious one day,
0:55:33 > 0:55:37or not feeling great, but particularly for young people
0:55:37 > 0:55:40now as well, with so much stress from exams and things like that,
0:55:40 > 0:55:42social pressures as well.
0:55:42 > 0:55:46Social media can put pressure on young people.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49I think it is something we wanted to get people talking about
0:55:49 > 0:55:52and making people more aware of it, and to let people know
0:55:52 > 0:55:56that it is OK to talk about these things, it is OK to feel this way.
0:55:56 > 0:55:58You're not even changed.
0:55:58 > 0:56:00Come on, what's the matter?
0:56:00 > 0:56:01Give me a sec.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04You've been like this for ages. You should be over it by now.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06Just give me a minute.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10I don't think it's been taken as seriously as it should be,
0:56:10 > 0:56:12especially in schools.
0:56:12 > 0:56:14When I was in school, we never really talked
0:56:14 > 0:56:16about mental health.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19We talked about bullying, cyber bullying, which I suppose
0:56:19 > 0:56:22are related to it, but we never talked about mental health
0:56:22 > 0:56:24as a thing on its own.
0:56:24 > 0:56:29So I think this project is hopefully going to be a boost to get schools
0:56:29 > 0:56:33and other youth organisations to talk about it.
0:56:33 > 0:56:34Nothing at the moment.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37You have to get something. Prom is in two weeks.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39We have to go to prom.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41What are you doing for make-up?
0:56:41 > 0:56:46It's like you're trapped in a box, in a way, because it is hard.
0:56:46 > 0:56:50Sometimes you can cry in the corner but you need that help
0:56:50 > 0:56:54and I think they try and brush it off a bit.
0:56:54 > 0:57:00When I was in school, people who, for example,
0:57:00 > 0:57:05come out, or even have abuse, it is hard for them as well.
0:57:05 > 0:57:11I think, by not establishing mental health in schools,
0:57:11 > 0:57:16it is going to affect us even more in the future.
0:57:16 > 0:57:18No, don't. Out of here.
0:57:18 > 0:57:19No.
0:57:19 > 0:57:21Mam!
0:57:21 > 0:57:24Go in the kitchen.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26Mam!
0:57:26 > 0:57:28I think it's a touchy subject in schools.
0:57:28 > 0:57:31I think teachers don't really want to approach it
0:57:31 > 0:57:34and there is a very much up and out attitude towards mental health.
0:57:34 > 0:57:38If a child is caught self harming or with marks on their arms,
0:57:38 > 0:57:41caught talking about the wrong thing, it just goes upwards
0:57:41 > 0:57:43and upwards and outwards until it hits the headteacher
0:57:43 > 0:57:45and then it goes external.
0:57:45 > 0:57:48Teachers in school don't really know how to deal
0:57:48 > 0:57:50with the problem or how to, sort of, manage the issue,
0:57:50 > 0:57:54and I think that creates a real paranoia among young people.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56They don't know who they can turn to
0:57:56 > 0:58:00and a lot of young people worry about their parents finding out.
0:58:02 > 0:58:10Professor Sally Holland is the Children's Commissioner.
0:58:10 > 0:58:15Thank you for coming in. Overwhelmingly there, they were
0:58:15 > 0:58:21saying, all my friends have got some form of mental health issue or has
0:58:21 > 0:58:28had at some point. Do you think there is enough attention and
0:58:28 > 0:58:30appreciation of the extra stresses that young people are under these
0:58:30 > 0:58:36days?I think there is a lot of attention being given to it and my
0:58:36 > 0:58:38concern is whether we are actually giving the right answers to that
0:58:38 > 0:58:43attention. First of all, I would like to point out that those young
0:58:43 > 0:58:48people in Merthyr are great example of how we don't have a generation of
0:58:48 > 0:58:51young people who are failing in some way or waiting passively for
0:58:51 > 0:58:56something to happen to them. They are a great bunch of activists, I
0:58:56 > 0:59:01have met them many times, and they are ready to say, can we be part
0:59:01 > 0:59:06part of the solution as well.But what needs to change? They were
0:59:06 > 0:59:11brilliant, as a bunch of young people getting to grips with things
0:59:11 > 0:59:15really well, but overall what needs to change, in terms of improving the
0:59:15 > 0:59:21provision, what schools need to be doing?This is a UK wide problem. We
0:59:21 > 0:59:25have had lots of attention on it in England as well. How do we better
0:59:25 > 0:59:29support young people? What we have uniquely in Wales is a really good
0:59:29 > 0:59:33opportunity. We have got a new curriculum being developed, teacher
0:59:33 > 0:59:36training being reformed and a reform of other child and adolescent mental
0:59:36 > 0:59:43health services. My big concern is while both those reforms are very
0:59:43 > 0:59:45well-meaning, they have got some great games, I don't think they are
0:59:45 > 0:59:50working together closely enough. That is a concern I am going to take
0:59:50 > 0:59:55to ministers this week.So you will be meeting with Kirsty Williams, the
0:59:55 > 0:59:59Education Secretary and Vaughan Gething, the Health Secretary. So
0:59:59 > 1:00:05there needs to be more joined up thinking?If you are to redesign a
1:00:05 > 1:00:09system from scratch, and we almost are in Wales, you would not design
1:00:09 > 1:00:13it so you have education over here and mental health services in some
1:00:13 > 1:00:17far-away clinic that people are desperately trying to get an
1:00:17 > 1:00:21appointment for. Once they get there, and waiting lists have come
1:00:21 > 1:00:24down, I acknowledge that, but once they get there, often they can't
1:00:24 > 1:00:29help because they are there to deal with mental illness. For young
1:00:29 > 1:00:33people in particular, adolescence is a time of lots of change. You can't
1:00:33 > 1:00:37really separate out their social experiences, their mental health
1:00:37 > 1:00:40experiences and their physical changes. They need a much more
1:00:40 > 1:00:47rounded, joined up support.So when they are in schools, and you say you
1:00:47 > 1:00:50wanted on the curriculum, the curriculum will be jam-packed full
1:00:50 > 1:00:55of stuff. It will be competing with all that.I don't just wanted on the
1:00:55 > 1:00:59curriculum. I think that will be one of the aspects that will help, for
1:00:59 > 1:01:05children to have better awareness of self, but we have an opportunity
1:01:05 > 1:01:07because the Education Secretary has quite rightly put health and
1:01:07 > 1:01:11well-being as one of the most central things we cover in schools.
1:01:11 > 1:01:14But it is not just about what children are taught, it is about the
1:01:14 > 1:01:19support around them.Thank you very much for coming in.
1:01:19 > 1:01:21That's it for our first show of 2018.
1:01:21 > 1:01:23Don't forget we're on Twitter @walespolitics,
1:01:23 > 1:01:25return to it.I have to stop you all.
1:01:25 > 1:01:26That's all we have time for.
1:01:26 > 1:01:28My thanks to Rupa to Bob and to Luke and with that,
1:01:28 > 1:01:34it's back to Sarah.
1:01:41 > 1:01:46Earlier we were talking about comments made by John McDonnell
1:01:46 > 1:01:52about Esther McVeigh. The Labour Party had been in touch to say that
1:01:52 > 1:02:00Mr McDonnell did not quote with approval, and that comments made in
1:02:00 > 1:02:08Parliament confirm that. We have been contacted also by the office of
1:02:08 > 1:02:09Kier Starmer, previously the Director of Public Prosecutions,
1:02:09 > 1:02:13saying he had nothing to do with the decision about John Worboys, and we
1:02:13 > 1:02:18are also happy to make that crystal clear. On to other news...
1:02:18 > 1:02:21Ukip has suspended the girlfriend of the party leader, Henry Bolton,
1:02:21 > 1:02:23after reports that she made racist remarks about Prince Harry's
1:02:23 > 1:02:24fiancee Meghan Markle.
1:02:24 > 1:02:27In text messages to a friend, Jo Marney described black people
1:02:27 > 1:02:29as "ugly" and said "her seed" would "taint our royal family".
1:02:29 > 1:02:32Ms Marney has apologised, and said that comments had been
1:02:32 > 1:02:33taken out of context.
1:02:33 > 1:02:38Paul Oakden, Ukip's party chairman, joins us from Birmingham.
1:02:44 > 1:02:49Can Henry Bolton carry on as leader after this?I think it is very clear
1:02:49 > 1:02:53that Henry is increasingly in a position where he has some difficult
1:02:53 > 1:02:58decisions to make. He knows that. He and I have spoken regularly over the
1:02:58 > 1:03:02weekend, as recently as this morning. I know he is focused on
1:03:02 > 1:03:06those decisions today. He intends on making those decisions today, and
1:03:06 > 1:03:09I'm sure that whatever he does will be in the best interests of the
1:03:09 > 1:03:14party.It sounds like you expect him to resign by the end of the day.Not
1:03:14 > 1:03:20at all. He is in a situation that he would rather not be in, which he
1:03:20 > 1:03:22acknowledges, but I believe he has the party's best interests at heart
1:03:22 > 1:03:27and that is what he will focus on.
1:03:27 > 1:03:31the party's best interests at heart Would the party's best interests be
1:03:31 > 1:03:34served by him standing down as leader?It would be best served by
1:03:34 > 1:03:39the membership having the opportunity to have their say. Henry
1:03:39 > 1:03:43acknowledges there has been an error in judgment, and it is now for the
1:03:43 > 1:03:46party membership and ruling body to make a determination on whether they
1:03:46 > 1:03:50feel Henry is the best person to lead them into what will be an
1:03:50 > 1:03:53incredibly crucial 12 months for Brexit. The thing that matters
1:03:53 > 1:03:57beyond Ukip and everything else.If he doesn't decide by the end of the
1:03:57 > 1:04:06day that he will stand down, when will the NEC meet?A week today. I
1:04:06 > 1:04:11want to be clear - Henry is not deciding whether he will or won't
1:04:11 > 1:04:15resign today. He's deciding what he can do to help remedy this
1:04:15 > 1:04:20situation. As leader, he will play the leading role in making this
1:04:20 > 1:04:24better, clearly needs made better, and a lot of people take their lead
1:04:24 > 1:04:29from him. The party is represented by its governing body, which will
1:04:29 > 1:04:32meet a week today. If he is still the leader Robbie today, they will
1:04:32 > 1:04:36meet at that point and collectively make a decision about what to do
1:04:36 > 1:04:43going forward.It doesn't sound like he has your support.Far from it. My
1:04:43 > 1:04:50job is to make sure that our thousands of members, who joined not
1:04:50 > 1:04:57because of the leader's Private life but because of Brexit, and we will
1:04:57 > 1:05:05not deliver Brexit on our own. Now that Tony Blair is running around
1:05:05 > 1:05:09with Lord Adonis and Nick Clegg trying to ride roughshod over
1:05:09 > 1:05:13democracy, we need a grand coalition of all those groups that fought on
1:05:13 > 1:05:20the League side to come together to see the journey home. That is the
1:05:20 > 1:05:24priority.It is a huge distraction if you're leader is having to fend
1:05:24 > 1:05:29off the stories about his private life.It is true that we need to be
1:05:29 > 1:05:33behind our leader 100% in taking that battle forward. That is
1:05:33 > 1:05:37absolutely key. Whether or not the party decides it is willing to give
1:05:37 > 1:05:41that support to Henry is for the party decide. My role as German as
1:05:41 > 1:05:47to make sure they have the ability to voice their opinion. I have every
1:05:47 > 1:05:52confidence that our national
1:05:59 > 1:06:02executive committee will do what is in the interests of the party, and I
1:06:02 > 1:06:05have every confidence that that is what our leader will seek to do.
1:06:05 > 1:06:07Whatever the situation, I am confident that a week tomorrow, the
1:06:07 > 1:06:09party will be in fine form to take that to the Remain establishment.
1:06:09 > 1:06:10Thanks for joining us.
1:06:10 > 1:06:13Let's pick up on that with the panel. What do you think the
1:06:13 > 1:06:20prospects are for the Ukip leader? Based on that, it has Monty Python
1:06:20 > 1:06:26moment. He will do what is best for the party, but that best... This is
1:06:26 > 1:06:30symptomatic of a wider crisis for Ukip. I've lost count of the number
1:06:30 > 1:06:37of leaders they've had.Five in 18 months.Three of them were Nigel
1:06:37 > 1:06:42Farage!He will probably be back again. They were a powerful vessel
1:06:42 > 1:06:45for delivering that referendum, but it is a lesson for people wanting to
1:06:45 > 1:06:51start political parties - it was a fragile vessel. The fragility is are
1:06:51 > 1:06:57now being exposed in this impossible nightmare they have. They can't even
1:06:57 > 1:07:00find a credible leader. They have not resigned over principles, they
1:07:00 > 1:07:09have resigned in bizarre circumstances, time and again.One
1:07:09 > 1:07:13of them only lasted days.And that is not bad going on the basis of
1:07:13 > 1:07:17what could happen in the future. It shows that it is difficult to set up
1:07:17 > 1:07:22a credible, serious political party. And they have become incredible.On
1:07:22 > 1:07:26a more serious note, Paul Oakton was saying that it is more important
1:07:26 > 1:07:29than ever to have people are giving the Ukip case as we go through the
1:07:29 > 1:07:34process of Brexit. As a party, can they do that? Or do people think
1:07:34 > 1:07:39that
1:07:40 > 1:07:42that with the referendum done and dusted, Ukip are finished?We have
1:07:42 > 1:07:46seen that in their election results since. He was a credible leader, a
1:07:46 > 1:07:52background in the police, working in the EU, the Armed Forces. I don't
1:07:52 > 1:07:57want to live in Soviet Russia or modern-day North Korea where people
1:07:57 > 1:08:01have guilt by association. He hasn't made these racist remarks.She has
1:08:01 > 1:08:10been suspended from the partly, -- the party, she is his partner.They
1:08:10 > 1:08:15are not taken out of context, they are outrageous, no question at all,
1:08:15 > 1:08:19racist, disgusting remarks, and no question that she should be out of
1:08:19 > 1:08:23the party membership. I would say that his misjudgement in being a
1:08:23 > 1:08:27middle-aged man running off with a glamour model half his age is the
1:08:27 > 1:08:33embarrassment for him. If he wants to be in a relationship with someone
1:08:33 > 1:08:37with those vile views, it is a question of his judgment. But let's
1:08:37 > 1:08:46not confuse the person who committed the offence. The key thing is, Ukip
1:08:46 > 1:08:53had a role, and Nigel Farage in my view is one of the most influential
1:08:53 > 1:08:56politicians of the 21st century in terms of how he has changed
1:08:56 > 1:09:00politics. Part of that effectively meant that Ukip had no role. They
1:09:00 > 1:09:04believe they have an important role, because they don't believe Theresa
1:09:04 > 1:09:07May is delivering the Brexit that many people like me actually voted
1:09:07 > 1:09:14for. I would like to keep them on the back burner as a credible party
1:09:14 > 1:09:19if and when they are needed to like the touch paper beneath the stories.
1:09:19 > 1:09:25To hold Theresa May's fee to the fire. Nigel Farage sprang back into
1:09:25 > 1:09:28the news today, possibly because he was looking for increased relevance
1:09:28 > 1:09:32to get himself back in the headlines, saying that he now agrees
1:09:32 > 1:09:35with Nick Clegg and Tony Blair that there might have to be a second
1:09:35 > 1:09:41referendum. Explain that, Tom.He said it on Friday morning, sorry,
1:09:41 > 1:09:45Thursday morning, and now he has said it again. He has recanted a
1:09:45 > 1:09:51bit, saying that it is not that he wants one, but it is back on the
1:09:51 > 1:09:55front page of the Observer, repeating the message. I think there
1:09:55 > 1:10:00are now will be one. Do you think he could possibly be sniffing out a job
1:10:00 > 1:10:05vacancy coming up any time soon? My reading of your incisive interview
1:10:05 > 1:10:10with Paul Oakton was that we
1:10:18 > 1:10:23should -- was that he will be handed a revolver, possibly this afternoon.
1:10:23 > 1:10:31If Nigel Farage came back, it could be his third or fourth term?He
1:10:31 > 1:10:38could easily come back. He goes on TV programmes and gives interviews,
1:10:38 > 1:10:42and you can see our role for him. The vacancy is about to come up. It
1:10:42 > 1:10:50rather begins to feel like a fait accompli.The EU withdrawal bill is
1:10:50 > 1:10:53back in the Commons this week - trouble for the Government over what
1:10:53 > 1:10:59will happen this week?At certain moments, there will be, as there was
1:10:59 > 1:11:03in December, moments of potential drama, inevitably, because they
1:11:03 > 1:11:09haven't always got a guaranteed majority. I suspect that defeats
1:11:09 > 1:11:13like we saw with the Dominic grieve amendment won't happen very often,
1:11:13 > 1:11:18but there will be, as with the rest of this Brexit sequence, moments of
1:11:18 > 1:11:21heightened drama where it is not at all clear what is going to happen
1:11:21 > 1:11:25and whether she can get what she wants through, Theresa May. I think
1:11:25 > 1:11:30the referendum thing is interesting. There's no reason why the 2016 one
1:11:30 > 1:11:34should be seen as a theological thing that cannot be touched,
1:11:34 > 1:11:38because the 2016 one showed that you can have second referendums. It was
1:11:38 > 1:11:46a second one.Let's have another one in 40- odd years.Very briefly,
1:11:46 > 1:11:50Julia, are you disappointed that Donald Trump is not coming to London
1:11:50 > 1:11:54to open the embassy?I hold no torch for Donald Trump. He wants us to be
1:11:54 > 1:12:01lining the roots and way being -- waving our little flags. He wants to
1:12:01 > 1:12:07meet the corgis. I think we should be friendly with the leaders of
1:12:07 > 1:12:14major global powers who are our allies in trade and militarily. It
1:12:14 > 1:12:18would be foolish to upset that because we don't like the current
1:12:18 > 1:12:20incumbent. What might we might be looking for a trade deal with them
1:12:20 > 1:12:26as well. Theresa May might be relieved. Oh God, yes!Someone
1:12:26 > 1:12:30senior in the Government said to me on Friday, using similar words to
1:12:30 > 1:12:35Donald Trump, it would be an capital at show if he came, and the same if
1:12:35 > 1:12:50he didn't. -- it would be an S show. No one made remarks about President
1:12:50 > 1:12:55Macron or Angela Merkel. If we accept the Chinese president, a
1:12:55 > 1:12:58totalitarian who has his political opponents murdered, I think we can
1:12:58 > 1:13:02cope with Donald Trump, as hideous and horrible and racist and
1:13:02 > 1:13:11misogynistic as he is.Strange that he has
1:13:11 > 1:13:14he has in -- that he hasn't come given the respect shall
1:13:14 > 1:13:19relationship.For our defence and security relationships, we need
1:13:19 > 1:13:21this.We have to leave it there.
1:13:21 > 1:13:22That's all for today.
1:13:22 > 1:13:26Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One XXXXX.
1:13:26 > 1:13:27Until then, bye bye.
1:13:33 > 1:13:41-- join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.