0:00:36 > 0:00:38Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42And this is your essential briefing to everything that's happening this
0:00:42 > 0:00:46morning in the world of politics.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Big fines for bosses who take bonuses from firms with black holes
0:00:49 > 0:00:53in their pension funds - will the Prime Minister's promise
0:00:53 > 0:00:55help the Government get back on the front foot
0:00:55 > 0:00:57after the collapse of Carillion?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Leading Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg says the Lords risk fundamental
0:01:00 > 0:01:05reform if they obstruct the passage of the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08Arch-remainer Lord Adonis says that's their job.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10We'll bring the MP and the peer together.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Henry Bolton fights to save his job after a week of damaging headlines
0:01:13 > 0:01:16about his relationship with a 25-year-old model.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18We'll be talk to the Ukip leader live.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Will it be his last interview as party leader?
0:01:22 > 0:01:23Later in the programme:
0:01:23 > 0:01:26Keeping Brexit on the rails; the war of words over what happens
0:01:26 > 0:01:27when powers return from Brussels.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29And the new leader of the Welsh Libdems Jane Dodds will be here.
0:01:29 > 0:01:29And the new leader of the Welsh rise. Could the solution lie in
0:01:29 > 0:01:34Scotland where it is treated as a public health issue?
0:01:37 > 0:01:41All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:41 > 0:01:46And with me today, our regular gaggle of experts providing
0:01:46 > 0:01:49the inside track on all the big stories - Tom Newton Dunn,
0:01:49 > 0:01:50Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54First this morning, Theresa May is proposing what she's
0:01:54 > 0:01:56calling tough new rules to penalise company executives
0:01:56 > 0:01:59who try to line their own pockets by putting their workers'
0:01:59 > 0:02:00pensions at risk.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02"An unacceptable abuse," she says, "that will end."
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Her comments come as the Government attempts to seize the initiative
0:02:05 > 0:02:07after the collapse of the giant construction, services
0:02:07 > 0:02:08and out-sourcing company, Carillion, which went into liquidation
0:02:08 > 0:02:13on Monday with debts of around £1.5 billion.
0:02:14 > 0:02:15One of Britain's biggest construction firms, Carillion,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18has been put into liquidation.
0:02:18 > 0:02:2320,000 workers face an uncertain future.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26Carillion employed people providing essential services in our schools,
0:02:26 > 0:02:29hospitals, railways and prisons.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32They had to be told they would be paid when they turned
0:02:32 > 0:02:33up to work on Monday.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Let me be clear that all employees should continue to turn up to work
0:02:37 > 0:02:40confident in the knowledge that they will be paid
0:02:40 > 0:02:45for the public services that they are providing.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48The firm had around 450 contracts with government,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52on top of private work and overseas projects.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Some of those had been handed to the company after it issued
0:02:54 > 0:02:56profit warnings last year.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58Prime Minister, why were contracts awarded to Carillion
0:02:58 > 0:03:00despite the warnings?
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Labour and the unions wanted answers.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06Why did the Government not heed the warnings?
0:03:06 > 0:03:11Why did they continue to give billions of pounds of contracts
0:03:11 > 0:03:13to a company that the City were backing against in 2013?
0:03:13 > 0:03:18That's the real question.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19That's the real question.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25And it's emerged the firm's former chief executive, Richard Howson,
0:03:25 > 0:03:27who left the firm last year, received £1.5 million in pay
0:03:27 > 0:03:30and bonuses in 2016, while many ordinary employees face
0:03:30 > 0:03:32the prospect of being laid-off and a huge black hole
0:03:32 > 0:03:34in the company's pension scheme could result in their
0:03:34 > 0:03:38pensions being slashed.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42Subcontractors who hadn't been paid for weeks were warned they might get
0:03:42 > 0:03:45just 1p for every pound they are owed.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50Some warned that they too might go to the wall.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54We are not really a business of a size that can trade
0:03:54 > 0:03:57through that without some form of support from the Government.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59If it's not forthcoming, I think ourselves and lots of businesses
0:03:59 > 0:04:01like us will probably go out of business.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02In the wake of the collapse...
0:04:02 > 0:04:06For Labour though, this was not just about the failure of one company.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09By Monday night, Jeremy Corbyn had taken to social media.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13At Prime Minister's Questions, he pressed the point home.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15This is not one isolated case of government negligence
0:04:15 > 0:04:16and corporate failure.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21It is a broken system.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26Virgin and Stagecoach's management of East Coast Trains,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28Capita and Atos' handling of disability assessments,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32and security firm G4S's failure to provide security at the Olympics
0:04:32 > 0:04:34were all examples, according to Jeremy Corbyn, of the private
0:04:34 > 0:04:37sector failing the public sector.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42These corporations, Mr Speaker, need to be shown the door.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47We need our public services provided by public employees
0:04:49 > 0:04:53with a public service ethos and a strong public oversight.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57As the ruins of Carillion lie around her, will the Prime Minister
0:04:57 > 0:05:00act to end this costly racket?
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Theresa May pointed out it was the Blair and Brown
0:05:03 > 0:05:06governments that signed many of the big public-private
0:05:06 > 0:05:09partnership deals and she suspected there was something else behind
0:05:09 > 0:05:12the current Labour leadership's hostility to the private sector.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15But what Labour oppose isn't just a role for private companies
0:05:15 > 0:05:20in public services but the private sector as a whole.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23This is a Labour Party that has turned its back on investment,
0:05:23 > 0:05:27on growth, on jobs.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32A Labour Party that will always put politics before people.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38So, under a Labour government, how far would their
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Would every binman, builder and even bankers have to be
0:05:40 > 0:05:45employed by the state?
0:05:45 > 0:05:46employed by the state?
0:05:48 > 0:05:51Carillion's collapses the big story of the week and it will continue to
0:05:51 > 0:05:55have political consequences I will talk through now at the panel. Tom
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Newton Dunn, presumably the caps of Carillion has prompted this promise
0:05:58 > 0:06:04from Theresa May that she will punish bosses who continue to take
0:06:04 > 0:06:08bonuses when they have black holes in the pension fund, is this
0:06:08 > 0:06:11something new?This is our expectation, the Prime Minister has
0:06:11 > 0:06:15acted dramatically as a response to the collapse of Carillion last week.
0:06:15 > 0:06:20The problem as I recall a party conference speech she gave in
0:06:20 > 0:06:24October, 2016, the citizens of nowhere, calling out a rotten
0:06:24 > 0:06:30corrupt apples across the country then, Philip Green who presided over
0:06:30 > 0:06:35the collapse of BHS, leaving a massive pensions black hole, an
0:06:35 > 0:06:39entire year and a bit has passed and no apparent government action. I
0:06:39 > 0:06:48fear Theresa May with the bold words in the new look Observer this
0:06:48 > 0:06:51morning, action today, still action tomorrow.It is what people want to
0:06:51 > 0:06:57hear?Certainly people do want to hear it, although they are amazed it
0:06:57 > 0:07:01has not happened before. Jeremy Corbyn is playing this beautifully.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06There is a much more worrying bigger picture here for the Conservatives.
0:07:06 > 0:07:12The opportunity they have created for Jeremy Corbyn to underline his
0:07:12 > 0:07:17case that unfettered free markets do not work and somehow or other
0:07:17 > 0:07:21Carillion symbolises everything that is wrong about the system, as we
0:07:21 > 0:07:26heard him say in the clip. I do not think most voters are particularly
0:07:26 > 0:07:30ideological, they just want things to work. But if the Government is
0:07:30 > 0:07:34seen to be incompetent on this scale, it creates a vacuum for the
0:07:34 > 0:07:41leader of the Labour Party to put an ideological spin on it and he is
0:07:41 > 0:07:43doing it very effectively.The Prime Minister is right when she says more
0:07:43 > 0:07:47of these PFI contracts were signed under Blair and Brown than under
0:07:47 > 0:07:52subsequent Tory governments, but now you have a Jeremy Corbyn Labour
0:07:52 > 0:07:56Party in opposition, they do not have to shoulder the blame for that?
0:07:56 > 0:08:00Jeremy Corbyn oppose them at the time. The late 1970s in reverse,
0:08:00 > 0:08:06that is what we are seeing. Bowman the minority Labour government being
0:08:06 > 0:08:11torn apart. Now we have a minority Conservative government being
0:08:11 > 0:08:15challenged by tidal waves which put them on the defensive all the time.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19We have not time to go through other examples, but just on this one,
0:08:19 > 0:08:26Theresa May is quite well equipped, as Tom said, from the beginning, she
0:08:26 > 0:08:29taught the language of intervention and corporate governments, coming
0:08:29 > 0:08:33after the bad people in the private sector, but because of the lack of
0:08:33 > 0:08:36action to follow it up and because Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes in
0:08:36 > 0:08:42these things, it is much easier for him to swim with these tidal waves
0:08:42 > 0:08:46than her lead in this deeply pressurised minority government.We
0:08:46 > 0:08:49have been talking to all three of you through the programme, let us
0:08:49 > 0:08:54pick up on Carillion with the Shadow Attorney General, Labour's Shami
0:08:54 > 0:08:58Chakrabarti. Labour have been very critical of the Government's
0:08:58 > 0:09:01response to the collapse of Carillion, what would Labour have
0:09:01 > 0:09:06done differently this week if you had been in government?I think what
0:09:06 > 0:09:12we would do and what we will do, as soon as we are in government, is
0:09:12 > 0:09:17look in a far more fundamental way at PFI, outsourcing, and by the
0:09:17 > 0:09:22way...We will get on the principles of this, but if you had won the
0:09:22 > 0:09:26election in 2017, it would have been a Labour government handling the
0:09:26 > 0:09:29collapse, what would have been different in your response?We would
0:09:29 > 0:09:35not have left it so late, we would not have bailed out a company that
0:09:35 > 0:09:38already had raised serious warning signals in the City, we would not
0:09:38 > 0:09:46have allowed them to get into subcontracting with, for example,
0:09:46 > 0:09:51Cerco, worth millions of pounds, profit warnings against that company
0:09:51 > 0:09:55too.Cerco are a big government provider, should they be looking at
0:09:55 > 0:10:00all of their contracts with the likes of Cerco who have also issued
0:10:00 > 0:10:04profit warnings?You do have to look at all of the arrangements and the
0:10:04 > 0:10:08subcontracting arrangements. It is not because I am ideological leap
0:10:08 > 0:10:15opposed to the private sector, it will be smaller private sector
0:10:15 > 0:10:21companies suffering from nonpayment. Should the Government help? The man
0:10:21 > 0:10:24running the small business in the film saying they might go to the
0:10:24 > 0:10:28wall.Quite possibly. But with accountability. It is all very well
0:10:28 > 0:10:34for Mrs May to say she will sting the big executives, there has to be
0:10:34 > 0:10:37ministerial responsibility as well. One of my concerns is that when
0:10:37 > 0:10:44vital public services of a kind almost constitutional, for example,
0:10:44 > 0:10:48prisons, get contracted out, what you are actually devolving as
0:10:48 > 0:10:52ministerial responsibility, something goes terribly wrong, in a
0:10:52 > 0:10:56vital utility, a matter of security, infrastructure, and ministers, of
0:10:56 > 0:11:02whatever colour, put up their hands and say, it is wicked executives.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07What we need is ministerial responsibility, oversight, of course
0:11:07 > 0:11:11we want a thriving private sector, but some vital services need to be
0:11:11 > 0:11:15run by public servants and with ministers held to account.Sometimes
0:11:15 > 0:11:19when you hear Labour Shadow ministers talking, it sounds as
0:11:19 > 0:11:23though they want to take absolutely everything back into public
0:11:23 > 0:11:28ownership.That is not the case. I believe in a mixed economy and I
0:11:28 > 0:11:32know my colleagues do too but there are times when some things need to
0:11:32 > 0:11:36be in public hands. That will include on constitutional grounds
0:11:36 > 0:11:41talking about people's human rights, basic security, and it will also
0:11:41 > 0:11:45mean sometimes when you have a big organisation and outsourcing is used
0:11:45 > 0:11:51to grind down the working conditions of some workers and break down the
0:11:51 > 0:11:54sense of community solidarity.Where is it appropriate for private
0:11:54 > 0:12:00contracts?For example, there are some things that the private sector
0:12:00 > 0:12:03probably does better. When you're running a police force, you are
0:12:03 > 0:12:07unlikely to say, we will make the motorbikes for the police officers
0:12:07 > 0:12:11better than BMW. Maybe you will but I doubt it will happen any time
0:12:11 > 0:12:17soon.You need to look at this. What about cleaning in offices and police
0:12:17 > 0:12:23stations? Should that be run by the police or outsourced?Maybe
0:12:23 > 0:12:26hospitals are better example because cleanliness in a hospital is quite
0:12:26 > 0:12:30often a matter of life and death. Sometimes it is better even for
0:12:30 > 0:12:36something that seems not a core service like claiming to be in
0:12:36 > 0:12:42public hands. You need to look at this on a case-by-case basis.You do
0:12:42 > 0:12:46not have many examples of where it is appropriate for private companies
0:12:46 > 0:12:50to be involved. Prisons and probation, what about catering in
0:12:50 > 0:12:54prisons, does that have to be in public hands?What you want to do is
0:12:54 > 0:13:00look at the quality of the service, the quality of the conditions, for
0:13:00 > 0:13:05the people working there, and to see what would be best value for the
0:13:05 > 0:13:10public and for the public purse. It is not ideological, but in some
0:13:10 > 0:13:15cases, principles are at stake.We are left with the problem here of
0:13:15 > 0:13:18workers worried about pensions, working for Carillion and
0:13:18 > 0:13:22subcontractors who might not get paid. If the Government work to talk
0:13:22 > 0:13:26about putting taxpayers' money into helping out those people or those
0:13:26 > 0:13:30companies, would the Labour Party object?We would want to look at the
0:13:30 > 0:13:36conditions of spending public money? In principle? It is not the fault of
0:13:36 > 0:13:39the subcontracting small companies they will not get paid.Indeed, but
0:13:39 > 0:13:44if you decide to spend public money, for example, to help the smaller
0:13:44 > 0:13:51businesses, you want accountability in response. You
0:13:52 > 0:13:54in response. You might well want to legislate to give priority to
0:13:54 > 0:13:56pension funds, for example, over shareholders who have not done their
0:13:56 > 0:13:58job of corporate governance in these cases.Moving on to talk about
0:13:58 > 0:14:03something else, if you don't mind, the serial six attacker, this time
0:14:03 > 0:14:06last week we were sitting here talking about the fact the Justice
0:14:06 > 0:14:11Minister said he would launch a judicial review and now he will not
0:14:11 > 0:14:17because it has little chance of succeeding. Should the Government be
0:14:17 > 0:14:20pursuing a judicial review?My view at the time, I held my tongue about
0:14:20 > 0:14:24it because I am used to politicians wading in in a knee jerk way when
0:14:24 > 0:14:28there is a case of this kind, my view is that if there is to be a
0:14:28 > 0:14:32judicial review of the parole board decision, the best person to bring
0:14:32 > 0:14:37such a review would be a victim because the chances are their best
0:14:37 > 0:14:40arguments would be under the Human Rights Act which gives rights to
0:14:40 > 0:14:47victims and not to politicians. Crowdfunding attempt to raise money
0:14:47 > 0:14:50to do that perhaps?If the Justice Secretary wants to make a name for
0:14:50 > 0:14:54himself with this as a new Justice Secretary, he might better give his
0:14:54 > 0:14:58attentions to making sure the people have decent levels of legal aid so
0:14:58 > 0:15:01they can vindicate their rights under the Human Rights Act. In
0:15:01 > 0:15:05relation to the case of John Worboys and the crisis of public confidence,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09that it is in danger of creating, we could do with an end review of the
0:15:09 > 0:15:16whole case, from the moment a young woman
0:15:18 > 0:15:20woman went to the police and was not believed to the moment this release
0:15:20 > 0:15:23decision was made arguably with the lack of transparency and involvement
0:15:23 > 0:15:25of victims.He was prosecuted for offences against 12 women and we
0:15:25 > 0:15:28know there were almost 100 other women who came forward. The CPS said
0:15:28 > 0:15:32there was not enough evidence and they cannot revisit that decision,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36if there was not enough evidence then, there will not be enough now.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39I am not second-guessing the particular CPS decision is because I
0:15:39 > 0:15:43am not in a position to do that but there are issues for the whole
0:15:43 > 0:15:47system from the moment that a woman went to the police and was not
0:15:47 > 0:15:54treated with the respect she
0:15:57 > 0:16:03treated with the respect she deserved, to victims.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08Kier Starmer was director of prosecutions at the time and he said
0:16:08 > 0:16:13he didn't have any involvement in the decision-making behind it.Nor
0:16:13 > 0:16:22did his predecessor.But he should have done, shouldn't he? He has
0:16:22 > 0:16:27prosecuted for only 12 cases, the DPP should be involved in that.My
0:16:27 > 0:16:33argument is this whole
0:16:44 > 0:16:46story on this whole case and the numbers of women involved and
0:16:46 > 0:16:49frankly the anxiety this decision has caused to women who weren't even
0:16:49 > 0:16:52victims means there needs to be an end to end review of how the system
0:16:52 > 0:16:54has worked in this case, from the moment a woman went to the police
0:16:54 > 0:16:57and was arguably not believed in was made without the input of victims
0:16:57 > 0:17:00who I would expect to be given notice and the opportunity to make
0:17:00 > 0:17:02representations to the parole board. There's a story running in the
0:17:02 > 0:17:04Sunday Times this morning about Momentum and saying they are trying
0:17:04 > 0:17:10to deselect 50 Labour MPs. The fact of the matter is whether have been
0:17:10 > 0:17:17Parliamentary selections, momentum candidates have... Do you think
0:17:17 > 0:17:23actually the Parliamentary Labour Party should better
0:17:24 > 0:17:27Party should better reflect Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party?Momentum is
0:17:27 > 0:17:34not prioritising the selection of some candidates over others. They
0:17:34 > 0:17:38are part of the Labour movement that has always had various strands
0:17:38 > 0:17:43within it. What is exciting to me is not exciting to the Sunday Times,
0:17:43 > 0:17:48fair enough, but we have a Democratic party becoming more
0:17:48 > 0:17:56democratic. I...There is still a massive disconnect between those who
0:17:56 > 0:17:59sit in Parliament and those who have joined since Jeremy Corbyn became
0:17:59 > 0:18:11leader.I think these things become exaggerated. I have noticed people
0:18:11 > 0:18:14uniting around purposes, not least the scandal around Carillion. I
0:18:14 > 0:18:20don't really spot this red Menace in the way other people do. It's a
0:18:20 > 0:18:24democratic party, and most popular movement of about 600,000 people and
0:18:24 > 0:18:29I think that something to be optimistic about.Thank you for
0:18:29 > 0:18:35talking to this morning.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Momentum haven't been that successful so far.I think it has
0:18:45 > 0:18:49been overblown on the basis of the evidence. You quoted the procedure
0:18:49 > 0:18:53is taking place so far, they haven't prevailed that often and in the
0:18:53 > 0:18:57Sunday Times this morning they resorted to the example of Haringey
0:18:57 > 0:19:03Council where there are a lot of specific local issues. At this point
0:19:03 > 0:19:06it is unclear whether the selection will become the overwhelming theme
0:19:06 > 0:19:11over the next few years in the Labour Party. It might do but the
0:19:11 > 0:19:15evidence so far is it is much more nuanced than some papers are
0:19:15 > 0:19:22suggesting.Three new Momentum members on the NEC this morning, is
0:19:22 > 0:19:28it going to make a difference do you think?A huge difference because
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Corbyn and his wing of the party can now do precisely what they want, as
0:19:31 > 0:19:36long as they have the union muscle behind them during conference votes,
0:19:36 > 0:19:41then the party and any which way he wants to run it is his. I disagree
0:19:41 > 0:19:46with Steve, the difference in language Jeremy Corbyn and his close
0:19:46 > 0:19:51associates were using after the NEC elections this week on mandatory
0:19:51 > 0:19:58reselection is, Shami wasn't asked if she believed in them, Rebecca
0:19:58 > 0:20:04Long-Bailey was, and they refused to rule them out and say they were a
0:20:04 > 0:20:13bad thing. In my view, it is without doubt that Corbyn will at some stage
0:20:13 > 0:20:18try to reshape the Parliamentary party more in his image and you may
0:20:18 > 0:20:24argue why should he not do that. Shami was saying the party is much
0:20:24 > 0:20:30more united around Jeremy Corbyn and when we see a story like Carillion
0:20:30 > 0:20:35it is easier for him to get the backing of the Parliamentary party.
0:20:35 > 0:20:41I think that's right. How unpleasant and ugly and divisive is it to have
0:20:41 > 0:20:45the story is out, whether or not they are completely accurate or
0:20:45 > 0:20:50whoever is briefing, I think it looks very bad on the atmosphere of
0:20:50 > 0:20:54the Parliamentary party. Where I do think Shami has a good point is on
0:20:54 > 0:21:00the size of the Labour membership. 600,000, the Conservatives can only
0:21:00 > 0:21:07dream of getting a fraction of
0:21:11 > 0:21:13dream of getting a fraction of this, so clearly there is a big problem
0:21:13 > 0:21:16for the Tory party there in matching what Labour is doing.We should ask,
0:21:16 > 0:21:20mandatory reselection for Labour MPs, are you in favour, Shami?Any
0:21:20 > 0:21:23democratic process should be across the board and for everyone. Where
0:21:23 > 0:21:28MPs are doing a good job, including working with their membership, and
0:21:28 > 0:21:32you have to work with your membership to get the vote out in
0:21:32 > 0:21:35the Labour Party, that relationship works well and I think that
0:21:35 > 0:21:39relationship will only work better into the future. I have been all
0:21:39 > 0:21:48over the country to all sorts of CLPs campaigning, and you would be
0:21:48 > 0:21:51surprised at the number of places where there is a very happy
0:21:51 > 0:21:56relationship between the MP and the party regardless of the particular
0:21:56 > 0:21:59strand they come from.Thank you for that.
0:21:59 > 0:22:00Now, the Government's flagship Brexit legislation -
0:22:00 > 0:22:03the EU Withdrawal Bill - hasn't always had the easiest
0:22:03 > 0:22:06of times in the House of Commons, but this week, MPs voted to send it
0:22:06 > 0:22:08through for consideration in the House of Lords.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11A number of peers having expressed concern about the so-called Henry
0:22:11 > 0:22:14VIII powers the bill grants to ministers to make changes to some
0:22:14 > 0:22:15laws without parliamentary scrutiny.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17And of course, a number of peers are dismayed
0:22:17 > 0:22:19about the process of Brexit itself.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21So, are we likely to see more dramatic attempts to change
0:22:21 > 0:22:24the Bill in a chamber full of unelected lawmakers?
0:22:24 > 0:22:28Ellie Price has been taking their temperature.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Stop Brexit!
0:22:36 > 0:22:39You'd think a bill that sought to enshrine EU law into British law
0:22:39 > 0:22:41after Brexit would be popular with the pro-Remain
0:22:41 > 0:22:42crowd in Parliament.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45But when the Withdrawal Bill cleared the Commons this week,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48one Tory Remain-supporting MP said he hoped the House of Lords would
0:22:48 > 0:22:52make an enormous amount of changes.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Good lord, what are they up to?!
0:22:56 > 0:22:58I think what will happen is that the Government will suffer
0:22:58 > 0:23:02a series of defeats, which will reduce the power
0:23:02 > 0:23:06of ministers to do things without proper scrutiny,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10and put in place a sensible series of votes - both in Parliament
0:23:10 > 0:23:13and the people at the end of the process - so that when we do
0:23:13 > 0:23:16get an end point to Brexit, people can say that it's
0:23:16 > 0:23:21been done properly.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23So a second referendum is on the table?
0:23:23 > 0:23:24It's definitely on the table.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27You would expect a Lib Dem to say that, but some Tory
0:23:27 > 0:23:31peers want changes too.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34If it comes to the situation where it looks as if what people
0:23:34 > 0:23:37voted for cannot be delivered, then we have to decide how
0:23:37 > 0:23:41best to move forward.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45I don't believe the House of Lords is trying to block Brexit at all.
0:23:45 > 0:23:50I think what the House of Lords is doing is its constitutional duty.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53So anyone hoping the House of Lords will deliver a fatal blow to Brexit
0:23:53 > 0:23:57will be disappointed, but so too will anyone hoping
0:23:57 > 0:24:00that the Withdrawal Bill will come out of there unchanged.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04So what is all the fuss about?
0:24:04 > 0:24:07The extent of the Government taking powers to itself while giving
0:24:07 > 0:24:09powers to Parliament, Henry VIII powers, this issue,
0:24:09 > 0:24:11of course, about the kind of protections we've had under EU
0:24:11 > 0:24:14law that we've contributed to for consumer protection,
0:24:14 > 0:24:18workplace protection, environmental issues,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21they are coming into UK law and that's what this bill does
0:24:21 > 0:24:25but it needs to make sure they're protected in UK law; they can't just
0:24:25 > 0:24:26be overturned the next day.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29There has to be a mandatory process to do that.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32But this was the reaction when some elected MPs over in the Commons
0:24:32 > 0:24:34voted against aspects of the Withdrawal Bill,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37causing a government defeat.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40One of their own colleagues even talked of treachery.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44Another MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week said the laws would face
0:24:44 > 0:24:48reform if it tried to frustrate the democratic will of the people.
0:24:48 > 0:24:53So is the chamber full of unelected Remainers playing with fire?
0:24:56 > 0:24:58Since I've been leader in the House of Lords,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01for just over two years, what I've found is every time
0:25:01 > 0:25:03someone doesn't agree with something we're doing,
0:25:03 > 0:25:04they will get quite hysterical about "take
0:25:04 > 0:25:08away their powers," it's almost an off-with-their-heads moment.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10But you know, there is quite prescribed powers we do,
0:25:10 > 0:25:12we take them seriously and responsibly, and,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14if there are changes we think should be made,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18we will send them back to the House of Commons.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20And even one of the lesser-spotted Brexit-supporting
0:25:20 > 0:25:21Lords isn't worried.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24There are a number of lords are in cahoots with Messrs Tusk
0:25:24 > 0:25:27and Juncker in trying to persuade the British people that they made
0:25:27 > 0:25:30a grave mistake when they voted to leave Brexit, and I have no doubt
0:25:30 > 0:25:32they will have a bit of fun doing that.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35But on the big issues, like whether we should
0:25:35 > 0:25:37have a second referendum, the Lords voted by a majority
0:25:37 > 0:25:41of more than 200 against that last year; or if you look at the Commons
0:25:41 > 0:25:43vote where the majority was over 200 against remaining in the single
0:25:43 > 0:25:46market and the customs union, I think the Lords will look
0:25:46 > 0:25:48to the elected House and do what they're good at,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51which is to consider the detail.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54Of course, one of the biggest differences between the Lords
0:25:54 > 0:25:57and Commons is the presence of nearly 200 crossbenchers -
0:25:57 > 0:25:59members who aren't in a party and don't take the whip,
0:25:59 > 0:26:01and they include some of the most distinguished legal
0:26:01 > 0:26:03minds in the country.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05And debate over the bill's constitutional implications may well
0:26:05 > 0:26:09lead to more than one showdown with the Commons.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13It's worth remembering that the Corporate Manslaughter
0:26:13 > 0:26:16and Corporate Homicide Bill went back and forth between the two
0:26:16 > 0:26:20Houses seven times only a few years ago, and that was just an aspect
0:26:20 > 0:26:23of the criminal justice system, it wasn't about the biggest decision
0:26:23 > 0:26:28this country is taking since 1945.
0:26:28 > 0:26:28this country is taking since 1945.
0:26:28 > 0:26:33So I think people need to be a little bit relaxed about that.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Like the MPs on the Green benches of the Commons,
0:26:40 > 0:26:44the Lords on their red benches agreed to trigger Article 50.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47But the Lords, like the Commons, is split on what Brexit
0:26:47 > 0:26:50should actually look like.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54There may be some toing and froing, or ping-pong as it's known around
0:26:54 > 0:26:57here, but pretty much everyone agrees the Lords can't
0:26:57 > 0:27:00and won't block the bill, and it will go through,
0:27:00 > 0:27:04probably, by the end of May.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Ellie Price reporting.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08Well, to discuss this, we're joined from Somerset
0:27:08 > 0:27:10by the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14This week he was elected chair of the influential
0:27:14 > 0:27:16European Research Group, made up of Brexit-backing
0:27:16 > 0:27:17Conservative backbenchers.
0:27:17 > 0:27:22And in the studio, we're joined by Andrew Adonis.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27He's a Labour peer who resigned from his role as a Government
0:27:27 > 0:27:31adviser last month over its Brexit strategy.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35Lord Adonis, you have made your opposition to Brexit clear, recently
0:27:35 > 0:27:40describing it as a national list spasm that can be stopped. Do you
0:27:40 > 0:27:46think the EU Withdrawal Bill is the opportunity to stop Brexit?I agree
0:27:46 > 0:27:52this is the biggest decision the country will take since 1945. I do
0:27:52 > 0:27:56not think the Lords can stop it, this is an issue for the people. It
0:27:56 > 0:28:00started with the people in a referendum and my view is the final
0:28:00 > 0:28:04sites should go to the people. The critical issue over the coming
0:28:04 > 0:28:07months will be the relationship between the House of Lords and the
0:28:07 > 0:28:11House of Commons in seeing people have the final say.When you say
0:28:11 > 0:28:16people have the final say, you are talking about a second referendum?
0:28:16 > 0:28:23The first referendum on Mrs May's terms on departure of the EU, not a
0:28:23 > 0:28:26rerun of the referendum two years ago because when we have that we
0:28:26 > 0:28:32didn't know what the terms would be. We are a democracy, we engage the
0:28:32 > 0:28:36people, this is the biggest decision since 1945 and the people should
0:28:36 > 0:28:42have the final say.Let me bring in Jacob Rees-Mogg on that, you are
0:28:42 > 0:28:46confident we will have a Brexit deal that will look attractive to most of
0:28:46 > 0:28:49the electorate so presumably you wouldn't be too worried about the
0:28:49 > 0:28:54second referendum on the terms of the deal?I think the ambition of
0:28:54 > 0:28:59the Lords in putting forward a second referendum is to try to stop
0:28:59 > 0:29:03tax it, and Lord Adonis has been clear about that. He said only
0:29:03 > 0:29:07yesterday he wanted to delete all of the clauses of the Withdrawal Bill.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11We have had a referendum, then a general election where both main
0:29:11 > 0:29:16parties backed the referendum results. I think if somebody wants a
0:29:16 > 0:29:20second referendum they should win a general election first, campaigning
0:29:20 > 0:29:25for one, rather than getting unelected peers to use it as a
0:29:25 > 0:29:28stratagem to obstruct Brexit. It is noticeable Lord Adonis and others
0:29:28 > 0:29:36have not called for a second referendum on other things
0:29:38 > 0:29:41referendum on other things like the Scottish vote.Lord Adonis, you have
0:29:41 > 0:29:43sent you will make the Government's life an absolute misery over the EU
0:29:43 > 0:29:47Withdrawal Bill which sounds as if you are using it as a stick to beat
0:29:47 > 0:29:52a policy or a decision you don't like rather than your real role
0:29:52 > 0:29:56which is legislative scrutiny. There's a huge amount of scrutiny to
0:29:56 > 0:30:00do. The powers which ministers are given in this bill is without
0:30:00 > 0:30:03precedent in a single piece of legislation, they have order making
0:30:03 > 0:30:08powers over the whole sphere of legislation that was previously
0:30:08 > 0:30:11enshrined in European law so if the House of Lords doesn't pay attention
0:30:11 > 0:30:16to that it's not doing its job. Coming back to Jacob's remarks,
0:30:16 > 0:30:22Jacob himself has been a
0:30:29 > 0:30:32supporter of the second referendum. In the House of Commons in 2011 he
0:30:32 > 0:30:35himself set out a case for a referendum on the terms of departure
0:30:35 > 0:30:37from the European Union if the electorate voted first time around
0:30:37 > 0:30:40to set the process in train. Jacob is contradicting his own position.
0:30:40 > 0:30:46You are shaking your head, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:30:46 > 0:30:50That is simply inaccurate. There was a proposal for a referendum to begin
0:30:50 > 0:30:55a process of negotiating nonmembership, to give them a
0:30:55 > 0:31:00mandate, and he would come back with what he achieved, and there would be
0:31:00 > 0:31:04a referendum on the result. The Prime Minister decided to have a
0:31:04 > 0:31:10straightforward referendum, in or out. Lord Adonis is speaking about
0:31:10 > 0:31:14discussion before the referendum terms were set, then they were set,
0:31:14 > 0:31:18everyone knew what they were voting for, to leave the EU, it was clear
0:31:18 > 0:31:23that meant leaving the single market and the customs union. I put a dent
0:31:23 > 0:31:29Lord Adonis, he would not be calling for a second referendum had Remain
0:31:29 > 0:31:34won.That is completely untrue. We did not know what the terms were.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37The Conservative manifesto for the election before said we would stay
0:31:37 > 0:31:44in the single market. These are Jacob's words, in the House of
0:31:44 > 0:31:48Commons, in 2011, it might make sense to have the second referendum
0:31:48 > 0:31:52after the renegotiation is completed...He says he is talking
0:31:52 > 0:31:57about Cameron's renegotiation that he went to before.Exactly the same
0:31:57 > 0:32:01principle applies now. We are seeing the terms Mrs May is coming back
0:32:01 > 0:32:04with, it is absolutely right that people should have a safe and it
0:32:04 > 0:32:08should not be Jacob Rees Mogg and Brexit ideologues deciding what the
0:32:08 > 0:32:16terms are.The difficulty with this is that people decided in a
0:32:16 > 0:32:19referendum, the general election manifestos of both parties committed
0:32:19 > 0:32:23to carrying out the result of the referendum, if Lord Adonis wants to
0:32:23 > 0:32:26put his case forward, he should try to stand for election, something I
0:32:26 > 0:32:31do not think he has ever done, win a general election campaigning to
0:32:31 > 0:32:36reverse the result. Unelected peers should not try to frustrate the will
0:32:36 > 0:32:40of the British people, as now expressed in two Democratic votes.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43On that, you have been issuing some veiled threats this week, saying the
0:32:43 > 0:32:48House of Lords would get into difficulties if they try to
0:32:48 > 0:32:52frustrate Brexit, what do you mean by that?I think what Baroness Smith
0:32:52 > 0:32:57is saying is very sensible, the House of Lords will abide by the
0:32:57 > 0:33:00Constitutional conventions, it will look to revise, I have concerns
0:33:00 > 0:33:04about some of the Henry VIII powers myself, a perfectly reasonable thing
0:33:04 > 0:33:09for the Lords to look at in its normal constitutional role. But if
0:33:09 > 0:33:13the House of Lords gets into a 1909 position of peers against the
0:33:13 > 0:33:20people, the people win and the Lords need to be aware of that, they need
0:33:20 > 0:33:22to observe the constitutional norms and then everything will carry on.
0:33:22 > 0:33:26The Lords need to be aware that what might happen to them in those
0:33:26 > 0:33:30circumstances, that government could flood the Chamber with 200 new Tory
0:33:30 > 0:33:35peers?It is already pretty flooded, but yes, you would have to have a
0:33:35 > 0:33:40deluge on top of a flood. The House of Lords has to abide by the
0:33:40 > 0:33:43constitutional norms, otherwise the Prime Minister would be perfectly
0:33:43 > 0:33:46entitled to use reserve powers to create more peers. I hope that will
0:33:46 > 0:33:50not be necessary. This is a conditional, not something I am
0:33:50 > 0:33:55calling for.What he is doing is threatening the Lords, Brexit
0:33:55 > 0:33:57ideologues who will stop at nothing to get Brexit through without the
0:33:57 > 0:34:04people the final say. He is dodging the issue because nobody is talking
0:34:04 > 0:34:06about the House of Lords asserting itself against the people. The issue
0:34:06 > 0:34:12which it will come down to resist the House of Lords invites the House
0:34:12 > 0:34:15of Commons, Jacob and his colleagues, themselves to reach a
0:34:15 > 0:34:19decision again on the issue of whether they should have a
0:34:19 > 0:34:24referendum on the final terms. It is not anti-democratic, it is the
0:34:24 > 0:34:28proper expression of democracy and the House of Lords. It is something
0:34:28 > 0:34:32which Jacob himself has supported in the past, no longer convenient for
0:34:32 > 0:34:37him to recognise that fact, but people's past does catch up with
0:34:37 > 0:34:43them. Nigel Farage has come to support a referendum on Mrs May's
0:34:43 > 0:34:47Brexit deal because he realises it is inevitable. As people realise the
0:34:47 > 0:34:51gravity of this decision and the fact Parliament itself is not in a
0:34:51 > 0:34:55great place to take it because there has been a referendum. The case for
0:34:55 > 0:35:00a referendum on Mrs May's terms will be unstoppable and the House of
0:35:00 > 0:35:04Lords will play an important democratic role in inviting the
0:35:04 > 0:35:07House of Commons to reach a decision on that.Jacob Rees Mogg, it would
0:35:07 > 0:35:12be ironic if the British constitution is working its way with
0:35:12 > 0:35:14the House of Lords making its revisions sending it back to the
0:35:14 > 0:35:19Commons, for you to argue against that, when what you wanted was for
0:35:19 > 0:35:24us to take control back of our own government.I am all in favour of
0:35:24 > 0:35:28taking back control and decisions being made in the House of Commons
0:35:28 > 0:35:32with the Lords acting as a revising Chamber. You have to understand the
0:35:32 > 0:35:36motives, they are trying to obstruct Brexit. Lord Adonis said the
0:35:36 > 0:35:42decision to leave for is as big a mistake as appeasement in the 1930s,
0:35:42 > 0:35:48almost hysterical reaction to the Brexit decision, and they are using
0:35:48 > 0:35:52it as a strategy to frustrate Brexit. What they should do is not
0:35:52 > 0:35:55used the unelected Lords but they should campaign in a general
0:35:55 > 0:35:59election if they have to campaign to do it as the Labour Party notably
0:35:59 > 0:36:04didn't in 2017, to call for a second referendum and reverse the result,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07but they do not have the courage because they know the British people
0:36:07 > 0:36:12are not with them.One slightly different thing before we finish,
0:36:12 > 0:36:15are you excited the buyer tapestry is coming to Britain, you don't
0:36:15 > 0:36:21think it is maybe a bit cheeky of the French celebrating something to
0:36:21 > 0:36:27a celebrating the Norman victory over the British?
0:36:29 > 0:36:32over the British?-- Bayeaux tapestry. I think it is a splendid
0:36:32 > 0:36:36gesture. We could send them a fragment of the union Jack from
0:36:36 > 0:36:42Nelson's ship at Trafalgar to remind them that by and large we win the
0:36:42 > 0:36:49battles.Some people have suggested we send Jacob but Bayeaux tapestry
0:36:49 > 0:36:54is much more recent in its views.On the big issue of Brexit... We will
0:36:54 > 0:36:58have to leave it there, Jacob Rees Mogg, Lord Adonis, thank you for
0:36:58 > 0:36:59that.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:37:01 > 0:37:02and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:37:03 > 0:37:04It's coming up to 11.40am.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking to embattled Ukip
0:37:10 > 0:37:12Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales,
0:37:12 > 0:37:16in a few moments time, he may be from Anglesey,
0:37:16 > 0:37:19but he sits for a seat in Yorkshire, so can Stuart Andrew be a good fit
0:37:19 > 0:37:21for the Wales Office?
0:37:21 > 0:37:24And the new LibDem Leader in Wales Jane Dodds says she wants
0:37:24 > 0:37:27a Beveridge Report for the 21st Century, but what other plans
0:37:27 > 0:37:30does she have to revive her party's fortunes?
0:37:33 > 0:37:36But first a former Brexit minister has told this programme Carwyn Jones
0:37:36 > 0:37:38is being "irresponsible" by suggesting the Assembly
0:37:38 > 0:37:40could withhold consent for the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:37:40 > 0:37:47David Jones says the First Minister should work with the UK Government
0:37:47 > 0:37:48in "a positive manner".
0:37:48 > 0:37:50The Bill is facing a rough passage through the Lords,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53particularly over how powers will be devolved back to
0:37:53 > 0:37:55Wales from Brussels.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58So we sent Cemlyn Davies to Westminster, to take
0:37:58 > 0:37:59the temperature there, as the Withdrawal Bill's
0:37:59 > 0:38:03journey continues...
0:38:03 > 0:38:05St Pancras station in central London.
0:38:05 > 0:38:13The destination for trains coming to the UK from Brussels.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15When we leave the EU all sorts of powes will
0:38:15 > 0:38:20make the same journey.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23make the same journey.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24But rather than ending appear in London, many of those
0:38:24 > 0:38:26responsibilities should keep travelling, all the way to Cardiff
0:38:26 > 0:38:29and Edinburgh, the Welsh and Scottish Government say.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31That's because they'll relate to devolved policy areas,
0:38:31 > 0:38:3364 of them in the case of Wales.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36But the UK Government thinks those powers should stop over
0:38:36 > 0:38:38here in London first, before being passed
0:38:38 > 0:38:42on further down the line at a date yet to be decided.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45That has raised questions of trust, and in a nutshell, that's
0:38:45 > 0:38:50what the row over the EU withdrawal bill is all about.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Amid accusations the Tories are attempting a power grab,
0:38:53 > 0:38:57MPs had expected to vote on government amendments
0:38:57 > 0:39:01to address the concerns, but they didn't materialise.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04The UK Government said it ran out of time.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07The Government had plenty of time to have resolved
0:39:07 > 0:39:11things by this stage.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14That is why there is a deep degree of distrust and suspicion.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16This bill will leave you and amended, and in
0:39:16 > 0:39:18an unsatisfactory state, and we are now dependent
0:39:18 > 0:39:21on an elected boards to do our job for us.
0:39:21 > 0:39:24The people of Wales have been taking back control since 1999.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27But the EU withdrawal bill will put our powers back under lock
0:39:27 > 0:39:31and key in Westminster.
0:39:31 > 0:39:33Extra powers will be devolved to the devolved administrations.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36We continue to work with devolved administrations on this,
0:39:36 > 0:39:40and we will be bringing forward an amendment to clause 11.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43The bill was voted through by MPs in the House of Commons,
0:39:43 > 0:39:46to my left, earlier this week.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49It's now heads across Central lobby to the other end
0:39:49 > 0:39:53of the Palace of Westminster, and the House of Lords,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55where those amendments should finally be put forward.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59But the Government lacks a majority on the red benches,
0:39:59 > 0:40:03and with many independently minded and Anti-Brexit peers
0:40:03 > 0:40:08itching to have their say, the bill is in for a bumpy ride.
0:40:08 > 0:40:12Originally from Ystradgynlais, Baroness Hater is Labour's Brexit
0:40:12 > 0:40:16spokesperson, and deputy leader in the Lords.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20The devolution issue is one she is keen to see resolved.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23At the time we went into what we then called the Common Market,
0:40:23 > 0:40:26we haven't got any devolution.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29So the power was went direct from Westminster to Brussels.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33It's now slightly more complicated, but at the moment the Government has
0:40:33 > 0:40:36given us no reason at all why they shouldn't respect
0:40:36 > 0:40:39the devolved settlement, and allow these to go to Cardiff.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42What I would like is that the elected government
0:40:42 > 0:40:47here in the United Kingdom gets together with the elected
0:40:47 > 0:40:50government in Scotland and in Wales, and they come
0:40:50 > 0:40:52to an arrangement about this.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56It's a long time since the 23rd of June 2016, it's really hard
0:40:56 > 0:41:03to imagine why it's taken them so long, and why they haven't had
0:41:03 > 0:41:06the sort of negotiations that would have led to a good
0:41:06 > 0:41:07outcome on this.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Plaid Cymru's Lord Wigley is also looking forward
0:41:09 > 0:41:10to scrutinising the bill.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14We have to ensure that the powers that are devolved to go
0:41:14 > 0:41:17straight to the Assembly.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20Yes, certainly, they'll need to be a mechanism whereby
0:41:20 > 0:41:24there is discussion and agreement between the four parliaments, before
0:41:24 > 0:41:34governments in the United Kingdom to ensure a level playing field
0:41:34 > 0:41:37in the single market, but it's something that has to be
0:41:37 > 0:41:39done by the agreement, and not by imposition
0:41:39 > 0:41:40from London down.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43Claiming the bill in its current form is an assault on devolution,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46the First Minister Carwyn Jones has threatened to try and derail it
0:41:46 > 0:41:48by asking the Assembly to withhold consent and pass
0:41:48 > 0:41:50its own counter legislation.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53A so-called continuity bill.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56This former Welsh Secretary and Brexit minister isn't impressed
0:41:56 > 0:41:59with the First Minister's approach.
0:41:59 > 0:42:03I think that we do need to satisfy the Assembly router they will,
0:42:03 > 0:42:08ultimately, be they be balancing of the powers.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12But I think that for Carwyn Jones to start talking in terms
0:42:12 > 0:42:14of refusing legislative consent and so on, is really
0:42:14 > 0:42:16rather irresponsible.
0:42:16 > 0:42:21I think he's got to recognise that the UK, and of course,
0:42:21 > 0:42:23Wales itself, voted to leave the European Union, and he's now got
0:42:23 > 0:42:25a positive duty to work with United Kingdom government
0:42:25 > 0:42:28in a positive manner.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32Ultimately, Westminster will have the last say on what happens.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37But overruling Cardiff Bay would be highly contentious says this expert.
0:42:37 > 0:42:42The British Parliament, in the end, can get its way, if it wants to.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45If it chooses to, therefore, pass legislation to overrule,
0:42:45 > 0:42:53bypass, or even outright repeal a piece of legislation passed
0:42:53 > 0:42:56the devolved level it has the power to do that.
0:42:56 > 0:43:02But it would be a highly controversial process,
0:43:02 > 0:43:06and we would see the UK and devolved governments in, sort of,
0:43:06 > 0:43:14I conflict in a way that I think is in no one's interest.
0:43:14 > 0:43:17It's absolutely the ideal way out of this mess, frankly,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20for a compromise to be reached on the EU withdrawal bill.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22A continuity bill would have to be passed on the Assembly
0:43:22 > 0:43:24before the withdrawal bill completes its journey
0:43:24 > 0:43:25through Parliament.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27So the clock is ticking.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Both the Welsh and UK governments hope and did not run agreement
0:43:31 > 0:43:35can still be reached, and officials are working hard
0:43:35 > 0:43:40behind-the-scenes in a bid to keep everything on track.
0:43:40 > 0:43:44Labour's Stephen Kinnock is a member of the Commons Brexit
0:43:44 > 0:43:48Committee and joins me now.
0:43:48 > 0:43:55Thank you for coming in this morning.Looking at this report,
0:43:55 > 0:43:59this idea of a power grab, as powers returned from Brussels to
0:43:59 > 0:44:07Westminster, what do you make of that?It's right. This bill is
0:44:07 > 0:44:10clearly not fit for purpose. It disrespects the principles of
0:44:10 > 0:44:15devolution. It is trying to introduce these Henry VIII powers
0:44:15 > 0:44:20which we will be using behind-the-scenes commerce massive
0:44:20 > 0:44:24piece of legislation without enough scrutiny and the Charter of human
0:44:24 > 0:44:29rights, taking away rights which would lead to what a lot of
0:44:29 > 0:44:32Conservative MPs want to see, a bonfire of rights in terms of
0:44:32 > 0:44:37employment law and the other things we expect and enjoy.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42From a devolution point of view, Theresa May has said on several
0:44:42 > 0:44:47occasions, the secretary of state has said, they expect the Assembly,
0:44:47 > 0:44:51the Welsh Assembly to gain extra powers as part of this process. Why
0:44:51 > 0:44:55do you think that could be seen as a power grab?
0:44:55 > 0:44:58If that's what they expect the let's have it on the face of the bill.
0:44:58 > 0:45:03This could have been an opportunity to clarify and codify the
0:45:03 > 0:45:08relationships between Westminster and the devolved administrations. In
0:45:08 > 0:45:11a way that respects the spirit and letter of devolution.
0:45:11 > 0:45:19Instead...Can we take you at your word though, is it a lack of trust?
0:45:19 > 0:45:23When Theresa May says at the dispatch box in the House of
0:45:23 > 0:45:27Commons, you will get more powers. They ran out of time, they couldn't
0:45:27 > 0:45:31have a debate. You don't trust her?Has the
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Government done anything in this whole process to inspire trust?
0:45:35 > 0:45:39They've constantly tried to prevent Parliament from having a role, even
0:45:39 > 0:45:44down to triggering Article 50. A legal case had to drag them kicking
0:45:44 > 0:45:49and screaming to Parliament on that. They've tried all sorts of tricks to
0:45:49 > 0:45:53take Parliament out of this process. And give power to the executive. Why
0:45:53 > 0:45:59should we trust them on this? The spirit of the referendum was
0:45:59 > 0:46:02take back control, I'm not sure people thought that meant taking
0:46:02 > 0:46:07control from Brussels and giving it to Whitehall. It's got to be about
0:46:07 > 0:46:12giving control back to the devolved administration is. And that's what I
0:46:12 > 0:46:17think people, a lot of people voted for on the 23rd of June.
0:46:17 > 0:46:22I guess there is still this issue of ambiguity about what people were
0:46:22 > 0:46:25voting for, which maybe presents itself in government policy. They
0:46:25 > 0:46:30are due to defend themselves, but it certainly seems to be manifesting
0:46:30 > 0:46:34itself in labour policy. There isn't much clarity about what Labour want
0:46:34 > 0:46:40in terms of, for example, do you, as a Labour MP, think the policy is to
0:46:40 > 0:46:45stay in the customs union or not? Stay in the single market or not?
0:46:45 > 0:46:52There's not much clarity. Firstly, on the withdrawal bill opposition is
0:46:52 > 0:46:53clear. The behaviour of the Government
0:46:53 > 0:46:57could provoke a constitutional crisis. But more broadly.On the
0:46:57 > 0:47:04single market and the customs union, I think it's time for us to really
0:47:04 > 0:47:08clarify our position. I think that position needs to be a commitment to
0:47:08 > 0:47:11the United Kingdom going to the European Economic Area and the
0:47:11 > 0:47:16European free trade Association, so, if you like, the Norway model. I
0:47:16 > 0:47:22know people have said we can't be in the single market. Norway isn't,
0:47:22 > 0:47:25it's in the European Economic Area, and there are significant
0:47:25 > 0:47:29differences, particularly around controlling free movement of labour.
0:47:29 > 0:47:35Articles 1121113 of the U agreement allow the pulling of emergency
0:47:35 > 0:47:38brakes, B segment for a long-term new arrangement on freedom of
0:47:38 > 0:47:46movement.That will also intrude on the Norway model as it's called,
0:47:46 > 0:47:51paying in for access to the single market. You are expecting a hefty
0:47:51 > 0:47:58bill for years and years to come for that membership?A very important
0:47:58 > 0:48:04distinction, also, on this... What are you are happy with that? What
0:48:04 > 0:48:08Norway does is negotiate and ring fence budgets for different pieces
0:48:08 > 0:48:13of the deal. It's a point of negotiation, how much we would
0:48:13 > 0:48:17continue to pay in. But it's not a budgetary contribution which goes
0:48:17 > 0:48:24into the central coffers. It is ring fenced so that the money that goes
0:48:24 > 0:48:29from Norway to Brussels is actually specifically negotiated for specific
0:48:29 > 0:48:34value that they get back from the European Union.About is your view,
0:48:34 > 0:48:39you want clarity on that, the problem is that Jeremy Corbyn has
0:48:39 > 0:48:44ruled that out, saying you can't remain as part of the single market,
0:48:44 > 0:48:47part of the customs union, that's what Brexit meant. You won't get
0:48:47 > 0:48:53past the leadership?The key point now is that the European Economic
0:48:53 > 0:48:58Area and the Norway model is not the same as the single market. If we
0:48:58 > 0:49:03could get bad point...Just Jeremy Corbyn understand that?I saw an
0:49:03 > 0:49:08injury which he drew the distinction recently. For example, he pointed
0:49:08 > 0:49:13out that Norway is not part of the common fisheries policy or common
0:49:13 > 0:49:19cultural policy. It has a different arrangement, it has chosen not to,
0:49:19 > 0:49:24on free movement of labour. The opportunity exists to do all those
0:49:24 > 0:49:30things. There is no European Court of Justice due restriction. It's a
0:49:30 > 0:49:35different court which diverges quite substantially from the ECJ.In Wales
0:49:35 > 0:49:39we are well versed on the Norway model because this is what Carwyn
0:49:39 > 0:49:42Jones has been talking about for a number of months, almost since the
0:49:42 > 0:49:47beginning. The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn won't listen to that.
0:49:47 > 0:49:52Carwyn Jones is saying that you can come to the UK, to Wales, if you are
0:49:52 > 0:49:55coming to a job. He's been trying to sell that to the Labour leadership
0:49:55 > 0:50:00and isn't getting anywhere. What makes you think that will change?
0:50:00 > 0:50:04There's been a lack of understanding around the European Economic Area,
0:50:04 > 0:50:10and the opportunities that it offers to be part of a model, the European
0:50:10 > 0:50:16Economic Area model. But with opportunities to do some bespoke
0:50:16 > 0:50:19negotiations within that. What we need to do is stop referring to
0:50:19 > 0:50:24Norway as a single market option. You cannot be a full member of the
0:50:24 > 0:50:28single market unless you are a full member of the European Union. But
0:50:28 > 0:50:33you can't be in the European Economic Area. Its associate status.
0:50:33 > 0:50:38That's by far the best way of getting a Brexit which doesn't wreck
0:50:38 > 0:50:43the British economy and reunites are deeply divided country.You seem to
0:50:43 > 0:50:47be outlining this is a problem of not understanding, I suggest that
0:50:47 > 0:50:51maybe the leadership of the Labour Party understands, but disagrees.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54What's going to have to happen now is you will need some sort of
0:50:54 > 0:51:00showdown with the Labour group in Parliament, some of whom will agree,
0:51:00 > 0:51:04and some will agree with Jeremy Corbyn. That's going to be an
0:51:04 > 0:51:12almighty row ayeswe are right that the clock is ticking. When we get to
0:51:12 > 0:51:16the meaningful vote in September it will be able to run two kinds of
0:51:16 > 0:51:20models. Michel Barnier has made it clear that it is either the Canada
0:51:20 > 0:51:26or EU model. We do need to have that clarity within the Parliamentary
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Labour Party across the entire labour movement, and I believe, very
0:51:29 > 0:51:35strongly that the European Economic Area associate status is by far the
0:51:35 > 0:51:39best Brexit option.Will there ever be unity within the Labour
0:51:39 > 0:51:47Parliamentary party? Or will you have two split, as you see fit?
0:51:47 > 0:51:50Anyone who has been watching politics knows that making
0:51:50 > 0:51:54predictions as a mugs game. I won't make any predictions and I'm sure
0:51:54 > 0:51:59you'll forgive me for that. I would say that there is a clear
0:51:59 > 0:52:03opportunity for building a strong consensus, a strong majority in
0:52:03 > 0:52:06parliament for that, don't forget lots of Conservative MPs agree with
0:52:06 > 0:52:12what I'm saying. There's a huge opportunity to build Parliamentary
0:52:12 > 0:52:18consensus, get Theresa May to wake up and smell the coffee. This is her
0:52:18 > 0:52:22approach, her red lines are not working. We need a more sensible,
0:52:22 > 0:52:27pragmatic approach, let's build a Brexit but words for Britain.You
0:52:27 > 0:52:31mentioned the wider labour movement, looking up the papers this morning
0:52:31 > 0:52:37they are reporting that a grassroots Labour organisation, some of the MPs
0:52:37 > 0:52:41associated are saying that maybe they would be looking to get rid of
0:52:41 > 0:52:46up to 50 Labour moderate MPs, they could be ousted. I guess you can't
0:52:46 > 0:52:54just up as a moderate MP, are you worried? Momentum could be coming
0:52:54 > 0:52:59after MPs like you?I've read that so many times. It is a shaky quote,
0:52:59 > 0:53:03not attributed, the whole thing is hang on one knowledgeable to quote,
0:53:03 > 0:53:08I don't know how much truth there is in it. I know we are facing the most
0:53:08 > 0:53:12incompetent and inept government in living memory, and we should be a
0:53:12 > 0:53:17lot further ahead in the polls than we are. The last thing we need is
0:53:17 > 0:53:25internal party politicking, we want to unite, turn the fire on the
0:53:25 > 0:53:27Tories and actually get ourselves well ahead in the opinion polls
0:53:27 > 0:53:29which is where we should be by rights.Why aren't you further
0:53:29 > 0:53:33ahead? Everything you have outlined in terms of the weaknesses of the UK
0:53:33 > 0:53:37Government, as you see it, you should be miles ahead. But you are
0:53:37 > 0:53:44barely neck and neck.That is a good question. I need to clarify our
0:53:44 > 0:53:47edition of Brexit that's particularly one area. That has
0:53:47 > 0:53:50become the most important issue in the minds of the British public. We
0:53:50 > 0:53:55need a clear that we could be ahead of the curve on that, and that's
0:53:55 > 0:54:00something we need to be doing quickly. I also think that,
0:54:00 > 0:54:06potentially, some of this perception that there is, you know, party
0:54:06 > 0:54:10within a party, and the momentum movement, what is the role of
0:54:10 > 0:54:15momentum, what's going on as part dignitaries causing some concern. I
0:54:15 > 0:54:20don't know. I can't answer your question specifically. But we need
0:54:20 > 0:54:26to build a clear, strong, coherent message. Turn fire outwards, not
0:54:26 > 0:54:31inwards, that would be the worst thing we could do.Thank you.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33Now the Wales Office has a new minister.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35Stuart Andrew has a solid Welsh background, but sits
0:54:35 > 0:54:38for a seat in Yorkshire.
0:54:38 > 0:54:41He's going to be with Alun Cairns at a summit tomorrow to discuss
0:54:41 > 0:54:44strengthening links between Wales and the South West of England.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Mr Andrew succeeded Guto Bebb, who's moved on to pastures new at Defence.
0:54:47 > 0:54:53So when I met him, I began by asking what change he thought was needed?
0:54:53 > 0:54:56I'm absolutely delighted to have been appointed to this role,
0:54:56 > 0:54:59and actually, I want to carry on the work that
0:54:59 > 0:55:00Guto has been doing.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03I've been watching him, you know, the work that he has been doing,
0:55:03 > 0:55:07looking at the North Wales growth deal and other areas.
0:55:07 > 0:55:10And I think it's important that we have out continuity,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13it was working well, and it's my job to make sure
0:55:13 > 0:55:15we keep that continuity going for the benefit
0:55:15 > 0:55:18of the people of Wales.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Where you have any of your own priorities which might be different
0:55:21 > 0:55:23to what's gone on before?
0:55:23 > 0:55:30I'm really keen on the North Wales growth deal.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33I understand North Wales having grown up there, lived there,
0:55:33 > 0:55:35went to school there.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38I know how important it is to the people of North Wales
0:55:38 > 0:55:42that they get the very best benefits of any increase in economic activity
0:55:42 > 0:55:44as part of the northern powerhouse.
0:55:44 > 0:55:50And I've argued all along that North Wales needs
0:55:50 > 0:55:51to be part of that.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54So meeting the key players in that is going to be one
0:55:54 > 0:55:55of my first priorities.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57I guess you'll be expecting the question, you clearly
0:55:57 > 0:56:00grew up in North Wales, in Anglesey and Wrexham, and yet,
0:56:00 > 0:56:02for somebody representing a constituency up in Yorkshire,
0:56:02 > 0:56:12whose interests do you primarily represent?
0:56:12 > 0:56:14Is it your constituency in Yorkshire, or is it
0:56:14 > 0:56:14the people of Wales?
0:56:26 > 0:56:29So I think I've got a lot of Welsh interests.
0:56:29 > 0:56:33But of course, I've got a constituency to look after as well.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35My accountability will come in Parliament, where Welsh MPs can
0:56:35 > 0:56:38question me regularly on the work that I am doing, on behalf of the UK
0:56:38 > 0:56:44Government in Wales.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46Government in Wales.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48And making sure that I attend Welsh affairs select committees,
0:56:48 > 0:56:51and all of those questions, and the Welsh grand, you know,
0:56:51 > 0:56:54there's plenty of opportunity for Welsh MPs who have been elected
0:56:54 > 0:56:59by the people of Wales to hold me to account.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01That's Parliamentary accountability, I'm talking more about your
0:57:01 > 0:57:03constituency interests, and who do you represent their?
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Because are there any circumstances under which you can see a possible
0:57:05 > 0:57:12conflict of interests between representing your
0:57:12 > 0:57:15constituency in Yorkshire, and your role as a Minister
0:57:15 > 0:57:17of State for Wales.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20I can't envisage any at this stage, but let's look at this,
0:57:20 > 0:57:26if we take a step back, if we look at every single member
0:57:26 > 0:57:29of Parliament and say to them they can only be a constituency MP,
0:57:29 > 0:57:31that would mean we had nobody doing ministerial jobs.
0:57:31 > 0:57:38I think it's a very professional role, it's easy to differentiate
0:57:38 > 0:57:40between the two, and I am paid to do that.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43I've got a keen interest in the prosperity of Wales,
0:57:43 > 0:57:46and of course my constituency, and I'm happy to put in the hours
0:57:46 > 0:57:50and effort to make sure I do both effectively.
0:57:50 > 0:57:57I'll give you an example of where I could see, perhaps,
0:57:57 > 0:57:58a conflict of interest.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01After Brexit, we've heard of a Shared Prosperity Fund
0:58:01 > 0:58:04for the UK, so that would replace the EU money which is going to go
0:58:04 > 0:58:06to the West Wales, and the valleys.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08There are poor areas in Yorkshire who will be
0:58:08 > 0:58:09calling out for that money.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11There are poor areas in Wales who will be
0:58:11 > 0:58:13calling out for that money.
0:58:13 > 0:58:16Whose interests will you be representing there, for example?
0:58:16 > 0:58:23Well, my job is to make sure that when it comes
0:58:23 > 0:58:26to the Wales aspect of that, that actually the bids that have
0:58:26 > 0:58:28been put in an effective and are really going
0:58:28 > 0:58:29to be successful.
0:58:29 > 0:58:30At the expense of your constituents?
0:58:30 > 0:58:32My priority as a local member of Parliament
0:58:32 > 0:58:37is for my one constituency, of course it is.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40But I can also fight equally hard for the people of Wales.
0:58:40 > 0:58:42I am fighting for many different aspects in Yorkshire
0:58:42 > 0:58:44and in my constituency.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47I am prepared to do that equally for the people of Wales.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49I am passionate about Wales, it is somewhere I grew
0:58:49 > 0:58:52up, someone I love.
0:58:52 > 0:58:54I have family in Wales and many friends in Wales.
0:58:54 > 0:58:59I've got interests in both camps.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02I've got interests in both camps.
0:59:07 > 0:59:10I am prepared to do the two andt capable of doing the two.
0:59:10 > 0:59:13Looking at what you think needs to change with, for example,
0:59:13 > 0:59:15the relationship with the Welsh government and the Welsh Assembly,
0:59:15 > 0:59:17a report recently said the Finance committee,
0:59:17 > 0:59:19for example are saying well, Alun Cairns as Secretary of State,
0:59:19 > 0:59:21he won't come and give evidence to us.
0:59:21 > 0:59:24Do you think there needs to be a change in the relationship
0:59:24 > 0:59:26between the Wales Office, UK Government and the Welsh
0:59:26 > 0:59:28government at the Assembly in Cardiff Bay?
0:59:28 > 0:59:31Well, let me say first of all I'm looking forward to meeting
0:59:31 > 0:59:32many Assembly members.
0:59:32 > 0:59:34I want a good working relationship with them.
0:59:34 > 0:59:37Of course I do, at the end of the day we all want
0:59:37 > 0:59:38the best for Wales.
0:59:38 > 0:59:41We want stronger economic growth, more prosperity for Wales.
0:59:41 > 0:59:43In terms of the finance committee, that is scrutinising the work
0:59:43 > 0:59:48of the ministers in the Assembly.
0:59:48 > 0:59:51These Secretary of State is responsible to Parliament,
0:59:51 > 0:59:54and must go before the Welsh affairs select committee on a regular basis.
0:59:54 > 0:59:57He attends the Welsh grand committee.
0:59:57 > 0:59:59So here is accountable to that committee.
0:59:59 > 1:00:07Let's not forget that he has also, with Robin Walker,
1:00:07 > 1:00:09the Brexit secretary, been to the Welsh Assembly
1:00:09 > 1:00:12to talk about Brexit and what that means for Wales.
1:00:12 > 1:00:15I think to say that he hasn't attended one committee means he's
1:00:15 > 1:00:16not working for them is very unfair.
1:00:16 > 1:00:18He does exceptional work.
1:00:18 > 1:00:28You to slightly contradictory things there.
1:00:28 > 1:00:31n one hand that he is not answerable to the Welsh Assembly,
1:00:31 > 1:00:32only to Parliament, yet,
1:00:32 > 1:00:34he gave evidence to the Brexit committee in the Assembly.
1:00:34 > 1:00:36It's one or the other, isn't it?
1:00:36 > 1:00:39Obviously, what he was trying to do there is make sure that everybody
1:00:39 > 1:00:42is aware of what we are having to do to make sure Brexit
1:00:42 > 1:00:47is successful for every part of the United Kingdom.
1:00:47 > 1:00:49But, the finance committee is really supposed to be
1:00:49 > 1:00:51scrutinising ministers in Wales, and there are plenty
1:00:51 > 1:00:53of opportunities for elected representatives in Wales
1:00:53 > 1:00:55to scrutinise the work of the Secretary of State,
1:00:55 > 1:01:00and he is always there to answer those questions.
1:01:00 > 1:01:03I guess your first big deal with the new job will be
1:01:03 > 1:01:07the seven Alliance Summit which is being held next week.
1:01:07 > 1:01:12What's the thinking ahead of that?
1:01:12 > 1:01:13What's the thinking ahead of that?
1:01:13 > 1:01:17What we are seeing all over the country is, we are trying
1:01:17 > 1:01:20to build up areas that have, you know, economic growth areas,
1:01:20 > 1:01:25and the fact that the Secretary of State has worked so hard to make
1:01:25 > 1:01:28sure that the tolls are abolished on the Severn Crossing,
1:01:28 > 1:01:32it really presents an opportunity for colour you know,
1:01:32 > 1:01:39the cells Wales corridor and the South West of England
1:01:39 > 1:01:47to really work together and get people coming across those borders
1:01:47 > 1:01:49let's harness the talent out there, the massive work that goes
1:01:49 > 1:01:51on in South Wales in terms of research, development,
1:01:51 > 1:01:54innovation, let's really build on that success
1:01:54 > 1:01:57and maximise on it so we have a very powerful economic area that can
1:01:57 > 1:02:01compete with the Midlands, with the Northern powerhouse
1:02:01 > 1:02:05and with London.
1:02:05 > 1:02:11and with London.
1:02:11 > 1:02:11and with London.
1:02:12 > 1:02:15Is there concern, that there is a danger here that Bristol
1:02:15 > 1:02:17and Cardiff have a relationship there, but flourishes,
1:02:17 > 1:02:19perhaps at the expense of the relationship between Cardiff
1:02:19 > 1:02:21and Swansea, Cardiff and Wrexham, or Bangor as well?
1:02:21 > 1:02:24Wales could be losing out because there is so much focus
1:02:24 > 1:02:29being put on Cardiff and Bristol, is that a concern?
1:02:29 > 1:02:32I think, I mean, in all of these deals you will have a,
1:02:32 > 1:02:34sort of, economic hub, if you like.
1:02:34 > 1:02:37But the prosperity will then, you know, filter out to other areas.
1:02:37 > 1:02:41We are seeing that in the growth deals announced
1:02:41 > 1:02:45all over the country.
1:02:45 > 1:02:49You may have a hive of activity in one area, in one city,
1:02:49 > 1:02:51but that will generate a lot more economic growth right
1:02:51 > 1:02:52across the region.
1:02:52 > 1:02:54That's what we wanted to see.
1:02:54 > 1:02:56We want to make sure these deals are working well,
1:02:56 > 1:02:59that's why people are being invited, the experts, this is about business
1:02:59 > 1:03:00is leading the way.
1:03:00 > 1:03:02What do they want?
1:03:02 > 1:03:05What skills do they need?
1:03:05 > 1:03:07What is the investment they want?
1:03:07 > 1:03:16We can't have that successful economy, in this area.
1:03:16 > 1:03:19And I'm absolutely convinced that with the huge take-up of people
1:03:19 > 1:03:21who are coming to this summit, there is real enthusiasm
1:03:21 > 1:03:23and I think we should be very excited about that.
1:03:23 > 1:03:26Now the LibDems in Wales have a new leader who says
1:03:26 > 1:03:28she is the woman to take the party forwards.
1:03:28 > 1:03:31But it's fair to say that Jane Dodds has a difficult task ahead.
1:03:31 > 1:03:34The party has no Welsh MPs and its single Assembly Member
1:03:34 > 1:03:37is in the Welsh Government.
1:03:37 > 1:03:40So how is Jane Dodds going to turn things around?
1:03:40 > 1:03:43She'll be here to tell me in a moment.
1:03:43 > 1:03:44First Rhodri Lewis looks back at the ups and downs
1:03:44 > 1:03:49of the party in Wales...
1:03:49 > 1:03:54And I hereby declare that the said, Ben Morgan Lake wedi ei ethol yn
1:03:54 > 1:03:59penodol dros etholaeth Ceredigion.
1:03:59 > 1:04:01penodol dros etholaeth Ceredigion.
1:04:01 > 1:04:05It may not have been quite as big as Michael Portillo's ousting
1:04:05 > 1:04:10in 1997, but for Welsh Lib Dems this was a moment in June when more
1:04:10 > 1:04:13than 150 years of Liberal representation in the Commons came
1:04:13 > 1:04:16to an end.
1:04:16 > 1:04:18Plaid Cymru's Ben Lake snatched Ceredigion from Mark Williams
1:04:18 > 1:04:23by just over 100 votes.
1:04:23 > 1:04:26In Cardiff Bay the Lib Dems are clinging on, with just one
1:04:26 > 1:04:28AM, Kirsty Williams.
1:04:28 > 1:04:31But being Education Secretary means her ability to strike out
1:04:31 > 1:04:35and oppose the Government is obviously limited.
1:04:35 > 1:04:37There are a smattering of councillors, of course,
1:04:37 > 1:04:42but how does the party rebuild?
1:04:42 > 1:04:44but how does the party rebuild?
1:04:44 > 1:04:46The aim of this election has been very cunningly concealed
1:04:46 > 1:04:48in the folds of the union Jack.
1:04:48 > 1:04:51It's a very long way from a century ago when a Liberal wasn't just
1:04:51 > 1:04:55the most powerful man in Britain, but also a huge global statesman.
1:04:55 > 1:04:59Lloyd George's party was the dominant force
1:04:59 > 1:05:01in British politics, since number of Liberal
1:05:01 > 1:05:04seats both in Wales, and across the UK has never again
1:05:04 > 1:05:08reached the dizzying heights seen under LG.
1:05:08 > 1:05:10I give you the assurance that as long as there
1:05:10 > 1:05:16is a breath in my body, I fight for freedom,
1:05:16 > 1:05:19and for liberalism.
1:05:19 > 1:05:21Even the passionate oratory of the former leader
1:05:21 > 1:05:22and Montgomeryshire MP Clement Davies wasn't
1:05:22 > 1:05:25enough to reenergise the party after the war.
1:05:25 > 1:05:28In more recent times things got even more challenging with voters leaving
1:05:28 > 1:05:31Geraint Howells and Alex Carlile to carry the liberal banner
1:05:31 > 1:05:34by themselves for many years.
1:05:34 > 1:05:37That said, not so long ago there were four Welsh Lib Dem MPs
1:05:37 > 1:05:40in the Commons, which proves it can be done.
1:05:40 > 1:05:43And the election for the assembly in a few short years means there's
1:05:43 > 1:05:46plenty of time for Jane Dodds to put her fight back
1:05:46 > 1:05:48into action and make a mark.
1:05:48 > 1:05:53And as I said Jane Dodds is here with me now.
1:05:53 > 1:05:58We heard in that piece, plenty of time for you to begin the fight back
1:05:58 > 1:06:04and make your mark. I guess before you realise what needs to change you
1:06:04 > 1:06:08have to realise what's gone wrong. Do you have a sense of why you want
1:06:08 > 1:06:17in the position you are now, one Assembly Member and no MPs?I think
1:06:17 > 1:06:21that as a party we've learned and looked back. You could say the
1:06:21 > 1:06:27coalition, the punishment we took in 2015 in terms of staying in people's
1:06:27 > 1:06:33minds. Of course, the tuition fees, everybody still talks about that.
1:06:33 > 1:06:37Unbelievably. If we look back we can see points is that rich people in
1:06:37 > 1:06:42Wales have said, we can't trust the Liberal Democrats, they have no
1:06:42 > 1:06:48policies that reach out to us. What we want to do is look forward, and
1:06:48 > 1:06:54we are not complacent. There is a lot to do. My vision is to win
1:06:54 > 1:07:00seats. That's what we have to do. To win seats we need to connect to the
1:07:00 > 1:07:03people emotionally. Present policies that are progressive, different,
1:07:03 > 1:07:12reforming. Also principles about being distinctively Welsh, exciting
1:07:12 > 1:07:17and inspiring. If it doesn't inspire as it won't inspire anyone else. We
1:07:17 > 1:07:21need to get above the party politics, the arguments, the
1:07:21 > 1:07:25negativity. That is my vision as to how we progress. We know we need to
1:07:25 > 1:07:29work hard. You talk about trust to there, is
1:07:29 > 1:07:34there a problem that in Wales particularly, because you only have
1:07:34 > 1:07:40that one Assembly Member, and nowhere MPs, it's difficult to get
1:07:40 > 1:07:44your new message across. You don't really have so many platforms to do
1:07:44 > 1:07:48that. That's absolutely true, we've got to
1:07:48 > 1:07:55make sure that we use every platform we can. You featured Kirsty Rea,
1:07:55 > 1:08:00that is one Assembly Member actually working in education. One of the
1:08:00 > 1:08:04most important issues for children and young people. Look at what one
1:08:04 > 1:08:08Assembly Member for the Welsh Liberal Democrats has achieved
1:08:08 > 1:08:12already. She's changed the lives of children in Wales, having been there
1:08:12 > 1:08:18just under two years. We've seen reforming education and schools. We
1:08:18 > 1:08:21are getting our message across, but we need to do more.
1:08:21 > 1:08:27We need to pound those pavements.I guess the Kirsty Williams situation
1:08:27 > 1:08:31could be used against you, you know, you are propping up the Labour
1:08:31 > 1:08:35government. You have a coalition with whoever, you are more than
1:08:35 > 1:08:41happy to take a hit on that to get into power. It's double edged sword?
1:08:41 > 1:08:46I think every time you talk about this issue it always is. I hope that
1:08:46 > 1:08:52we are in politics to change people's lives. I'm not sure to gain
1:08:52 > 1:08:57power and control, or to have that sense of being able to rule over
1:08:57 > 1:09:02people. That's what Kirsty is doing. It wasn't an easy decision, but the
1:09:02 > 1:09:08fact she is they are changing lives for the best is what we support.
1:09:08 > 1:09:12One of the problems with the Liberal Democrats after the 2010 coalition
1:09:12 > 1:09:16in Westminster was that you seemed to take all the blame for the things
1:09:16 > 1:09:20people didn't like, and no credit for anything. How can you make sure
1:09:20 > 1:09:22that doesn't happen to Kirsty Williams in the next Assembly
1:09:22 > 1:09:28elections? Will you be telling her to drop out of the Welsh government
1:09:28 > 1:09:35at a certain point?Firstly, telling Kirsty and working in that way,
1:09:35 > 1:09:40nothing, we've not talked about it. We are supporting Kirsty in
1:09:40 > 1:09:46everything she does right now. In terms of how we can communicate our
1:09:46 > 1:09:51messages, and what we've achieved, we probably need to do better. You
1:09:51 > 1:09:54are absolutely right. If you look at the coalition, the pupil deprivation
1:09:54 > 1:09:58ground which is loading the gap between the rich and poor in our
1:09:58 > 1:10:03schools. We are introducing the threshold for income tax, the green
1:10:03 > 1:10:08deal. All of that was about the Liberal Democrats in coalition. We
1:10:08 > 1:10:12didn't get that message out and we need to do better. That's what we'll
1:10:12 > 1:10:19be doing.Does they need to be a new raft of brand-new policies? Or is
1:10:19 > 1:10:24this trying to sell them different way.We have ideas around how we
1:10:24 > 1:10:29will be more progressive and reforming. We are launching the
1:10:29 > 1:10:33Beveridge report, the commission for the 21st-century, looking at the
1:10:33 > 1:10:37five e-mails that Beveridge highlighted, and adding a sixth,
1:10:37 > 1:10:43which is loneliness. Half a million people in Wales talk about how
1:10:43 > 1:10:47lonely they are. We need to look at those issues and present solutions
1:10:47 > 1:10:53to them that are funded, evidence, I'm not in the business, let me be
1:10:53 > 1:10:57clear, I'm not in the business of saying let's put pie in the sky,
1:10:57 > 1:11:02something on the table we think will work. I want evidence, this is what
1:11:02 > 1:11:05we have heard, this is what we think will work.
1:11:05 > 1:11:09You talk about a Beveridge report fully 21st-century, what will
1:11:09 > 1:11:16entail? What needs to change? If we look at, for example linking
1:11:16 > 1:11:20up the bit about idleness, and the bit about want, which is poverty and
1:11:20 > 1:11:27lack of work. So I'm a big advocate of a universal Basic income. I want
1:11:27 > 1:11:34to look into that a lot more, I want to see how that...Maybe our viewers
1:11:34 > 1:11:38aren't up to speed with what that means, is that everybody regardless
1:11:38 > 1:11:42of whether they have a job, or are on welfare, you get a set amount of
1:11:42 > 1:11:47weekly money from the state. It has been trialled in Finland. Everyone
1:11:47 > 1:11:52gets a certain amount of money.I think we need to look at that
1:11:52 > 1:11:57seriously. We need to look at a pilot, they are looking at is in the
1:11:57 > 1:12:01Scottish executive. It is in the second year in Finland. They are
1:12:01 > 1:12:13looking at how not only do we have people who are on benefits, getting
1:12:13 > 1:12:16a set amount, but also, we are looking at the future in terms of
1:12:16 > 1:12:19automation increasing. There will be a lack of jobs. We also need to
1:12:19 > 1:12:21think about what's good for our welfare and well-being. Spending
1:12:21 > 1:12:24time with family, looking after elderly relatives. I'm saying we
1:12:24 > 1:12:28need to look into it seriously. Would that be at a UK level or just
1:12:28 > 1:12:34for Wales? That would involve them devolving welfare to Wales, if you
1:12:34 > 1:12:41were looking at that? It's an and devolved issue. It's
1:12:41 > 1:12:44resting with Parliament. What I am saying is that the Welsh Liberal
1:12:44 > 1:12:49Democrats can be future thinking here. We've always been a radical
1:12:49 > 1:12:53nation, we always thought we would do things differently. That's one
1:12:53 > 1:12:59example. Our report for the 21st-century, looking at loneliness,
1:12:59 > 1:13:02and we will present evidence -based policy to the Welsh people.
1:13:02 > 1:13:08The UK Government is already looking at loneliness. They have a Minister
1:13:08 > 1:13:11for loneliness. What would you do differently? We
1:13:11 > 1:13:15need to look at what works in Wales. We have people will have their
1:13:15 > 1:13:20grants cut, voluntary services have done brilliant work with older
1:13:20 > 1:13:24people and single parents. We need to look at what bad experiences.
1:13:24 > 1:13:28We've got rural areas where people really don't see anybody else. How
1:13:28 > 1:13:33do we reach out to them? It is different for Wales. For Welsh
1:13:33 > 1:13:38speakers we need that distinctively Welsh issue.Plenty to get on with,
1:13:38 > 1:13:39thank you for coming in.
1:13:39 > 1:13:40That's it from us for another week.
1:13:40 > 1:13:43Don't forget Wales Live is back for a new series at 10:30
1:13:43 > 1:13:44on Wednesday evening.
1:13:44 > 1:13:47In the meantime, you follow all the latest on Twitter,
1:13:47 > 1:13:48we're @walespolitics.
1:13:48 > 1:13:49We'll be back next week as usual.
1:13:49 > 1:13:59For now diolch am wylio, thanks for watching, and goodbye.