0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:45 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in
0:00:47 > 0:00:48the world of politics.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52Can the Conservative Party speak with one voice on Brexit?
0:00:52 > 0:00:56As Tory splits spill out in to the open once again this week,
0:00:56 > 0:00:57can the Prime Minister reassert her authority
0:00:57 > 0:00:59over a divided party?
0:00:59 > 0:01:03We'll be speaking to the former Conservative Cabinet
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Minister, Theresa Villiers - hitherto a loyal voice,
0:01:05 > 0:01:09but who says she's now worried about Brexit being diluted.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Is Jeremy Corbyn heading for a fight with Labour councillors?
0:01:11 > 0:01:15As local government chiefs accuse the party's ruling body of trying
0:01:15 > 0:01:16to intervene in local decisions,
0:01:17 > 0:01:19we'll be speaking to one of Jeremy Corbyn's key allies.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Good morning, everyone. Can the Conservative Party speak with one
0:01:21 > 0:01:23voice on Brexit?
0:01:23 > 0:01:27Later, Alan Davies on the forming voting in Welsh
0:01:27 > 0:01:29Later, Alan Davies on the forming throw off their bad reputation and
0:01:29 > 0:01:36prove to be the answer to the housing crisis in London?
0:01:36 > 0:01:38All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41And to help me to make sense of all the big stories today, I'm
0:01:41 > 0:01:43joined by Camilla Tominey, Rafael Behr and Rachel Shabi.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47I'm sure they certainly won't all speak with one voice.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49The newspaper headlines make pretty grim reading
0:01:49 > 0:01:50for the Government this morning.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52'Tories in Turmoil', 'Brexit betrayal',
0:01:52 > 0:01:55'PM told to raise her game'.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Tory Brexit divisions erupted in public once again this week.
0:01:58 > 0:01:59So, is the Government's biggest priority now
0:01:59 > 0:02:04becoming its biggest headache?
0:02:04 > 0:02:05becoming its biggest headache?
0:02:12 > 0:02:17Morning, Home Secretary. They divided cabinet?A new cabinet since
0:02:17 > 0:02:24that modest reshuffle but still the same old Brexit split. Foreign
0:02:24 > 0:02:28Secretary Boris Johnson, who spent so much time on that infamous boss
0:02:28 > 0:02:33promising extra money for the NHS, went off Brive at the meeting on
0:02:33 > 0:02:39Tuesday, pushing the government to honour that much maligned pledge.Do
0:02:39 > 0:02:44you want to be the health secretary? Philip Hammond was in Brussels from
0:02:44 > 0:02:50where he sent a swift review.Mr Johnson is the foreign secretary. I
0:02:50 > 0:02:56gave the Health Secretary an extra £6 billion at the recent budget.And
0:02:56 > 0:03:01labour leader Jeremy Corbyn piled in at Prime Minister 's questions.Does
0:03:01 > 0:03:04the Prime Minister agree with the Foreign Secretary that the national
0:03:04 > 0:03:08Health Service needs an extra £5 billion?I think the right
0:03:08 > 0:03:12honourable gentleman, as I recall was here for the autumn budget which
0:03:12 > 0:03:15was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, where he announced he
0:03:15 > 0:03:21would be putting £6 billion more into the National Health Service.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25Meanwhile, Jacob Rees-Mogg took on the Brexit Secretary David Davis
0:03:25 > 0:03:29over the transition deal.We are only actually out at the end of the
0:03:29 > 0:03:32transition. That is a big shift in government policy and a big move
0:03:32 > 0:03:43away from the vault.I do not accept your description.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46your description.Next day, Theresa May travelled to the World Economic
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Forum in Davos to heal a different divide, this time her special
0:03:51 > 0:03:56relationship with Donald Trump.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02relationship with Donald Trump. Her Chancellor described in modest
0:04:02 > 0:04:06change in Britain's relationship with the EU. Now he was being
0:04:06 > 0:04:13rebuked by furious colleagues as well as his boss. David Davies
0:04:13 > 0:04:20insists the Cabinet are united. They want a good deal.There is no
0:04:20 > 0:04:23difference between the Chancellor and myself and indeed the Prime
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Minister, in terms of the fact we both want a Brexit that serves the
0:04:26 > 0:04:31British economy and the British people.The EU will set out their
0:04:31 > 0:04:36bargaining position for a phase two of the Brexit negotiations tomorrow.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41But can we find an agreed British response.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45So to discuss the implications of all of the week's events I've got my
0:04:45 > 0:04:51expert panel. Welcome. Camilla, these are quite remarkable headlines
0:04:51 > 0:04:55this morning about the party being in turmoil over Theresa May's
0:04:55 > 0:04:59leadership and the direction of Brexit policy. Let's start with
0:04:59 > 0:05:04Brexit. How deep are the divide?I think they are very deep. The tide
0:05:04 > 0:05:09has turned a bit in the last week. Normally when you are covering these
0:05:09 > 0:05:13issues in the lobby, there is underlying hysteria. I think there
0:05:13 > 0:05:16are quite a lot of people on both sides scratching their heads,
0:05:16 > 0:05:21looking at some of the editorials we saw in the week about the Tory
0:05:21 > 0:05:24party, particularly when referring to Theresa May as a Wizard of Oz
0:05:24 > 0:05:31character. A lot in the Tory party can't disagree with that. They
0:05:31 > 0:05:34regard her as a caretaker Prime Minister. A lot of them have been
0:05:34 > 0:05:38giving her the benefit of the doubt particularly on Brexit because she
0:05:38 > 0:05:43has been consistent about what Brexit means. That did not mean
0:05:43 > 0:05:49leaving the single market and the Customs Union. -- that it must mean.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52To have Boris Johnson and Philip Hammond freelancing on the sidelines
0:05:52 > 0:05:57makes her look weak and unable to keep the Cabinet together. That
0:05:57 > 0:06:01gives the general impression to the country that they aren't quite in
0:06:01 > 0:06:05charge of things and that she particularly isn't across her brief.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09The key question at the heart of this is which of these Cabinet
0:06:09 > 0:06:15ministers are reflecting the Prime Minister pots opinion on this --'s
0:06:15 > 0:06:19opinion on this. Does she agree with Philip Hammond, or is she looking
0:06:19 > 0:06:24for a more significant divergence? This is absolutely critical. We talk
0:06:24 > 0:06:31about Brexit divisions. We are used to thinking about the division being
0:06:31 > 0:06:34about Remainers and levers. That is not the division we are talking
0:06:34 > 0:06:40about. There is a group of people in government who have now focused on
0:06:40 > 0:06:43the practical technical difficulty of what is required to get Britain
0:06:43 > 0:06:47safely out of the European Union. And they for the most part, and I
0:06:47 > 0:06:51will include the Prime Minister, have understood it is a long
0:06:51 > 0:06:55incremental process. You want an arrangement that looks pretty much
0:06:55 > 0:06:59like the status quo. If there is going to be divergence from EU
0:06:59 > 0:07:03rules, it will be incremental. We get the impression the Prime
0:07:03 > 0:07:05Minister has signed off on that approach because she is a cautious
0:07:05 > 0:07:10person. The problem is the Chancellor said it out loud. He had
0:07:10 > 0:07:16the temerity to say it. This is the plan. You have the other group of
0:07:16 > 0:07:20people, the harder, more ideological Brexiteers are not in government,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23who don't have to focus on the practical reality, look at that and
0:07:23 > 0:07:27think, that doesn't sound like emancipation and freedom, that
0:07:27 > 0:07:33sounds a bit boring. When you listen to what some of the critics of the
0:07:33 > 0:07:37Prime Minister from the hard Brexit position are saying, it is not
0:07:37 > 0:07:40obvious what they are asking her to do. What they want from her is a
0:07:40 > 0:07:47sense of clarity, a sense of whether or not she can have the confidence
0:07:47 > 0:07:51to stand up and say, the Chancellor is right. They are testing courtesy
0:07:51 > 0:07:56of she can do that and she won't do that because she doesn't want the
0:07:56 > 0:08:01huge tsunami of betrayal from the right.It is also impossible
0:08:01 > 0:08:06Bridgeford Theresa May to try and cross. How can she reconcile these
0:08:06 > 0:08:09different views of what Brexit is going to look like at the point
0:08:09 > 0:08:15where we have to start laying out what Britain's approach will be?
0:08:15 > 0:08:19That is the problem. The divisions are seemingly irreconcilable in the
0:08:19 > 0:08:23party. That is their own problem. It has become a national problem
0:08:23 > 0:08:28because they are doing it while in government. They have a over us
0:08:28 > 0:08:32while they are falling apart. That is completely irresponsible. In
0:08:32 > 0:08:39terms of where we are going to end up, we all know. We saw from phase
0:08:39 > 0:08:45one of EU that actually everything was conceded to the soft Brexit
0:08:45 > 0:08:49model was conceded two in what was agreed to during the parameters of
0:08:49 > 0:08:53phase one. It seems like, do we really have to go through this all
0:08:53 > 0:08:58again, this pretend, this bickering, this biting, when we know in the end
0:08:58 > 0:09:03we are going to end up with a situation that is a soft Brexit
0:09:03 > 0:09:07because this is where the major constituency is in Westminster and
0:09:07 > 0:09:10the country.We have a couple of guest to make disagree with that. We
0:09:10 > 0:09:13will return to you guys later.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15Well, the Cabinet Minister David Lidington was talking
0:09:15 > 0:09:17to Andrew Marr this morning, and was asked about the backlash
0:09:17 > 0:09:20on the Government's Brexit strategy from Jacob Rees-Mogg and other
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Conservative MPs.
0:09:22 > 0:09:29Jacob, like everybody else, needs to see how negotiations go. We are
0:09:29 > 0:09:32about to start negotiations. I'm not going into detail about that
0:09:32 > 0:09:37process. Secondly, the very fact that we will have left the European
0:09:37 > 0:09:42Union is a big deal indeed. The bill in front of Parliament extinguishes
0:09:42 > 0:09:47the power of the European Court and supranational EU law over the UK.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49I'm joined now by the former Cabinet Minister, Theresa Villiers.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52She has written a piece in today's Sunday Telegraph telling
0:09:52 > 0:09:56of her growing concern that Brexit is being diluted.
0:09:56 > 0:10:03Thank you for coming on. What do you mean by Brexit been diluted?I have
0:10:03 > 0:10:07consistently argued the case for compromise and I recognise it is
0:10:07 > 0:10:14necessary. What I was saying in my article this morning was that if you
0:10:14 > 0:10:17go too far with compromise, eventually you get to the point
0:10:17 > 0:10:20where we wouldn't generally be leaving the European Union, we
0:10:20 > 0:10:24wouldn't be respecting the result of the referendum.You are concerned
0:10:24 > 0:10:30that is the direction they're heading in?I am concerned. We must
0:10:30 > 0:10:33retain the right to divergence Romeu laws. One of the key points of
0:10:33 > 0:10:38leaving the European Union is to ensure that we make our own laws in
0:10:38 > 0:10:44our own parliaments and not be subject to laws made by people we
0:10:44 > 0:10:47don't elect and can't remove.What has made you concerned that is the
0:10:47 > 0:10:51direction in which we are heading? Is it Chancellor talking about
0:10:51 > 0:10:55modest changes or something happening behind the scenes?It is a
0:10:55 > 0:11:01combination of things. I think in part the government faces a
0:11:01 > 0:11:04difficult challenge convincing people on the Leave side of the
0:11:04 > 0:11:07debate. So many times in the past there have been Prime Ministers
0:11:07 > 0:11:11who've gone to Brussels and said, it will be fine, we would bring you
0:11:11 > 0:11:16back a deal, and at the last minute there has been, territory has been
0:11:16 > 0:11:20given away. We have made compromises. I accept the need for
0:11:20 > 0:11:24that. There is only so far you can go before ultimately you find
0:11:24 > 0:11:29yourself in a position where you are deleting Brexit so much that it
0:11:29 > 0:11:33isn't leaving the European Union in a real sense.When you hear Philip
0:11:33 > 0:11:37Hammond say they will only be modest changes to our relationship with the
0:11:37 > 0:11:41EU, you think he is reflecting government policy? Downing Street
0:11:41 > 0:11:49tried to refute what he was saying. Only actually said was, you can't
0:11:49 > 0:11:53call leaving the single market and Customs union a modest change. You
0:11:53 > 0:11:56are anxious, are you, that right at the top they are worried about
0:11:56 > 0:12:02keeping fairly close alignment with the EU?The Prime Minister set out a
0:12:02 > 0:12:06bold vision for Brexit in her Lancaster House speech. My article
0:12:06 > 0:12:10is about appealing to the government to stick to that vision and
0:12:10 > 0:12:13implemented so that once we leave the European Union we are back in
0:12:13 > 0:12:18control of our laws, money and borders.The Prime Minister has set
0:12:18 > 0:12:22this out in Lancaster House and in Florence. Why do you think she would
0:12:22 > 0:12:28be backsliding? Makes you think anything has changed?I don't think
0:12:28 > 0:12:33she wants to backslide. I think what is happening is that she is under
0:12:33 > 0:12:37huge sustained pressure from a range of quarters to reverse the result of
0:12:37 > 0:12:42the referendum. So in part, but I am trying to do is to re-emphasise the
0:12:42 > 0:12:46positive case for Brexit. And we emphasise that whilst there are
0:12:46 > 0:12:53those who want to soften things up and frustrate the implementation of
0:12:53 > 0:12:56the referendum, others are enthusiastic about implementing that
0:12:56 > 0:13:00vision in the Lancaster House speech.Were those people who want
0:13:00 > 0:13:03to frustrate her? You must be worried they are right inside the
0:13:03 > 0:13:09Cabinet for you to write a newspaper article about this. You must be
0:13:09 > 0:13:14worried if his right at the top of government?I don't believe that. I
0:13:14 > 0:13:21think the Cabinet is united in wanting to do this.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23wanting to do this.After the different views we had this week?
0:13:23 > 0:13:28This is an issue that has divided the country. The key battle now is
0:13:28 > 0:13:33what is going to be the end state we ask for in the negotiations? We must
0:13:33 > 0:13:38ask for an end state based on the Lancaster House speech, which means
0:13:38 > 0:13:40retaining control, making our own laws in our own Parliament. That is
0:13:40 > 0:13:45how we have -- we become genuinely an independent country again and
0:13:45 > 0:13:51respect the result of the referendum.Do you think the
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Chancellor was contravening stated policy when he talked about modest
0:13:54 > 0:13:59changes. --? Was he out of line?I wouldn't make too much of that one
0:13:59 > 0:14:03comment. That has not wanted my concerns. What I want to do is
0:14:03 > 0:14:08ensure the case for a real Brexit is made. I fully acknowledge the
0:14:08 > 0:14:13technical scale of the exercise of withdrawing from the European Union.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18It is very complicated. That is one of the reasons why I have had a --
0:14:18 > 0:14:21advocated and supported compromise. There is only so far you can go
0:14:21 > 0:14:26without -- with compromise without finding yourself selling out on the
0:14:26 > 0:14:29people who voted to leave.The next phase will be about the
0:14:29 > 0:14:34implementation period before we get to the final future relationship
0:14:34 > 0:14:38with the EU. We learned a little bit more about the government approached
0:14:38 > 0:14:42and that this week. David Davis made it sound as if there will be no
0:14:42 > 0:14:46changes to free movement of people whatsoever during the two-year
0:14:46 > 0:14:50transition phase. Does that concern you? That seems to be a change in
0:14:50 > 0:14:56policy.For me, the important issue is what happens at the end of the
0:14:56 > 0:15:02transition period.You are relaxed about two years of transition which
0:15:02 > 0:15:06looks most identical to staying in the EU?I accept that looks like
0:15:06 > 0:15:10what is current to happen. I think there is a case for a transition
0:15:10 > 0:15:15period. I think my worry now is if we go into the transition period
0:15:15 > 0:15:18without the clearest possible understanding of what the
0:15:18 > 0:15:22arrangements are when we leave, so I believe that we must have as much
0:15:22 > 0:15:27detail as possible in relation to our agreement with the European
0:15:27 > 0:15:31Union, that we reach before the transition period starts. If we go
0:15:31 > 0:15:38into it not knowing the end state, that would worry me.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43When it comes to the end state, what are the things you couldn't sign up
0:15:43 > 0:15:50to? What's being described as easy movement of people in and out of the
0:15:50 > 0:15:54UK, would that lead to a point it was a Brexit deal you couldn't agree
0:15:54 > 0:16:01to?The key issues are the end state must allow the UK to run its own
0:16:01 > 0:16:05trade policy and make its own decisions on rules and regulations.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10So no involvement from the European Court of Justice?The Government has
0:16:10 > 0:16:18agreed a time limited role for that. I don't see it as a problem but any
0:16:18 > 0:16:21enlargement of that role I would see as worrying.Do you think there's
0:16:21 > 0:16:27any possibility you could end up voting against this in Parliament?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30I'm not going to make predictions on how I will vote on a deal that
0:16:30 > 0:16:34hasn't been agreed yet. I want to make sure we work together to try to
0:16:34 > 0:16:38bridge divisions, to come up with an agreement with the European Union
0:16:38 > 0:16:43which gives us a new partnership with them, which hopefully a
0:16:43 > 0:16:46majority can be comfortable whichever way they vote in June 2000
0:16:46 > 0:16:4916.Thank you.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Joining me now from Newcastle is the Brexit
0:16:52 > 0:16:54Minister Lord Callanan.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57Can you offer any reassurance to Theresa Villiers and any other
0:16:57 > 0:17:00members of your party who are worried about this that government
0:17:00 > 0:17:05is not going soft on Brexit?We are not going soft, there's been no
0:17:05 > 0:17:10backsliding on the Prime Minister's Lancaster house speech. We will be
0:17:10 > 0:17:15regaining control of our laws, money and borders. We will be establishing
0:17:15 > 0:17:23an independent trade policy as she set out in her speech.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25set out in her speech.Theresa Villiers is completely wrong when
0:17:25 > 0:17:31she says she's worried Brexit is being diluted, is she?Yes, she is
0:17:31 > 0:17:35wrong. It's not being diluted, the Prime Minister is in charge of the
0:17:35 > 0:17:39negotiations and we will be negotiating with our European
0:17:39 > 0:17:43partners in good faith, our friends and allies, but the objectives
0:17:43 > 0:17:47remain as she set out.So it was the Chancellor who was wrong when he
0:17:47 > 0:17:52said there would only be modest changes in our relationship?No, the
0:17:52 > 0:17:56Chancellor has said he is of the vision the Prime Minister has set
0:17:56 > 0:18:01out.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05out. We will be negotiating with our European partners to bring about
0:18:05 > 0:18:09frictionless trading arrangements but the important part of the
0:18:09 > 0:18:13negotiations is that we have to regain control of our ability to set
0:18:13 > 0:18:17our own rules and undulations. Though there may be some areas where
0:18:17 > 0:18:21if there are integrated supply lines we might want to reflect current EU
0:18:21 > 0:18:25regulations but the important thing is we decide those matters for
0:18:25 > 0:18:30ourselves.David Davis presumably speaks for government when he is
0:18:30 > 0:18:34describing the transition phase, and he says during this implementation
0:18:34 > 0:18:39period people will of course be able to travel between the UK and the EU
0:18:39 > 0:18:42to live and work. That sounds like free movement is continuing as
0:18:42 > 0:18:51before but we were told it would end as soon as we left the EU in 2019.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55We would introduce a registration scheme so we knew he was coming to
0:18:55 > 0:19:00the country.You could do that right now. This registration idea, this is
0:19:00 > 0:19:05not something that comes about because we have left the EU, we
0:19:05 > 0:19:10could have introduced that years ago if we wanted to. Several European
0:19:10 > 0:19:17countries asked the UK citizens to register.Let's see what the
0:19:17 > 0:19:21negotiations produced, but what we want to do is reflect current rules
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and regulations as closely as possible so that at the end of the
0:19:25 > 0:19:29implementation period, and it's important that is strictly
0:19:29 > 0:19:33time-limited, we agree with the EU on that, at the end of that state we
0:19:33 > 0:19:38will introduce a new immigration policy and take control of our
0:19:38 > 0:19:45rules, regulations and borders. It sounds
0:19:48 > 0:19:53sounds a lot like a red line that has gone very pale pink.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56We are about to have the negotiations. We will sit down in
0:19:56 > 0:20:00good faith with our European partners, talk about how the
0:20:00 > 0:20:04implementation period will work and what the end state will be.But we
0:20:04 > 0:20:08don't have to wait to find out what the UK Government position is
0:20:08 > 0:20:12because David Davis set it out this week and pretty much described free
0:20:12 > 0:20:17movement continuing as it is.As I said, we are having the
0:20:17 > 0:20:21negotiations, we are about to start them, let's not give away our
0:20:21 > 0:20:25positions before we do that. We want to reach an agreement as soon as
0:20:25 > 0:20:29possible so we get certainty that business knows where we are going at
0:20:29 > 0:20:33the end of the period and we move towards the new state at the end of
0:20:33 > 0:20:40a strictly time-limited implementation period.So would it
0:20:40 > 0:20:42be helpful if the Prime Minister were to make another speech, where
0:20:42 > 0:20:45she set out clearly what the Government's position is on the
0:20:45 > 0:20:48future direction of travel on the transition period and future end
0:20:48 > 0:20:52state so that instead of listening to Cabinet ministers with diverging
0:20:52 > 0:20:57views on this, we knew from the Prime Minister what the Government's
0:20:57 > 0:21:03policy was?The policy remains what she set out in detail in the
0:21:03 > 0:21:06Lancaster house speech followed up by the Florence speech where she
0:21:06 > 0:21:10outlined the new end state we want to end up with and the procedures
0:21:10 > 0:21:16for getting there. She set it out in great detail, that was very clear
0:21:16 > 0:21:25but we need to have under -- negotiation at the end of the day.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28These are difficult, complicated and tricky areas but we remain focused
0:21:28 > 0:21:33on the end state which is we will be leaving the single market and the
0:21:33 > 0:21:38customs union, having independent trade policy and deciding our own
0:21:38 > 0:21:41rules and regulations.The EU Withdrawal Bill will come to the
0:21:41 > 0:21:48Lords this week to your house, are we going to see government
0:21:48 > 0:21:54compromise?We will be listening to the debate. We showed that we were
0:21:54 > 0:21:59prepared to reflect and think about contributions made, and if people
0:21:59 > 0:22:02have suggestions that we agree with that we will improve the legislation
0:22:02 > 0:22:06and of course we will do that. The House of Lords has a very important
0:22:06 > 0:22:10role and we will carry that out effectively and we will listen to
0:22:10 > 0:22:14what the debate says.So you are open to government amendments
0:22:14 > 0:22:23changing the EU Withdrawal Bill? On issues like Henry VIII powers or
0:22:23 > 0:22:26something like that?We have already compromised on those areas in the
0:22:26 > 0:22:31House of Commons so we will listen to what the debate brings. Peers
0:22:31 > 0:22:35take their role of scrutinising EU legislation closely and we will
0:22:35 > 0:22:39reflect on that and introduce changes if we think they are
0:22:39 > 0:22:43warranted.Thanks for talking to us this morning.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46And you can find more Brexit analysis and explanation on the
0:22:46 > 0:22:47BBC website.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49This week Labour's ruling body, the National
0:22:49 > 0:22:51Executive Committee, or NEC, stepped in to a bitter row
0:22:51 > 0:22:53about a controversial housing project in the London
0:22:53 > 0:22:54borough of Haringey.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57It's led to deep divisions between the NEC and councillors
0:22:57 > 0:22:59across the country, with the Labour leader of Newcastle City Council
0:22:59 > 0:23:04calling it a "declaration of war".
0:23:04 > 0:23:04calling it a "declaration of war".
0:23:05 > 0:23:07With Jeremy Corbyn supporters consolidating their grip
0:23:07 > 0:23:10on the ruling body of the party, Emma Vardy's been looking
0:23:10 > 0:23:15at the new battle lines being drawn.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20You might not think to look at it but this council estate in north
0:23:20 > 0:23:23London is being seen as a battle ground for the very soul of the
0:23:23 > 0:23:29Labour Party. Labour run Haringey plans to redevelop the estate in
0:23:29 > 0:23:34partnership with a private company but the pro-Corbyn pressure group
0:23:34 > 0:23:41momentum has led a campaign opposing it.You do not gift people's houses
0:23:41 > 0:23:46to a private developer and say you can demolish these...When Labour's
0:23:46 > 0:23:50ruling body, the NEC, intervened telling Haringey to force the
0:23:50 > 0:23:55project, some Labour supporters were outraged.We have now got the
0:23:55 > 0:23:58National executive committee effectively telling a Labour council
0:23:58 > 0:24:05what to do and I'm thinking where does this end?This, some believe,
0:24:05 > 0:24:10is what they see as the hard left of the party using the row as an excuse
0:24:10 > 0:24:14to get rid of more moderate Labour council is ahead of next year 's
0:24:14 > 0:24:19elections. Around a third of the Haringey Labour group of either been
0:24:19 > 0:24:24deselected or they have stood down. How is this being seen by other
0:24:24 > 0:24:26How is this being seen by other Labour council is looking on?
0:24:26 > 0:24:29How is this being seen by other There's 100 names on an open letter
0:24:29 > 0:24:31How is this being seen by other to the NEC today saying stay out of
0:24:31 > 0:24:37local council business, and one of them, the Labour leader of Corby
0:24:37 > 0:24:42Borough Council who can be found up there, called it a disgrace.I
0:24:42 > 0:24:47signed the letter because I wanted to demonstrate solidarity with a
0:24:47 > 0:24:52colleague, also to send a message to the NEC that we believe it is
0:24:52 > 0:24:57inappropriate to intervene in the way they did. Labour and local
0:24:57 > 0:25:01government are the people governing here in this country, we are not in
0:25:01 > 0:25:05Government nationally, we are in Government locally and we are doing
0:25:05 > 0:25:11a good job locally. We are protecting our people.Do you think
0:25:11 > 0:25:15the NEC will listen?I would hope so.The intervention that led to
0:25:15 > 0:25:22this row came for the first time since Momentum leader was elected as
0:25:22 > 0:25:28one of its members.The NEC has expressed a view, it has not
0:25:28 > 0:25:31mandated, not stormed in and taken over, and I think for every person
0:25:31 > 0:25:36you can find who is upset I can find tenants who are delighted.Jeremy
0:25:36 > 0:25:40Corbyn's support base on the NEC has been strengthened after recent
0:25:40 > 0:25:45elections so could this lead to sweeping changes on party policy in
0:25:45 > 0:25:50the future?Where you can see greater radicalism is on areas of
0:25:50 > 0:25:54economic policy, following Carillion Labour has been clear they want an
0:25:54 > 0:25:57end to outsourcing completely if they are elected, that they would
0:25:57 > 0:26:01like to take contracts back in-house, and at a local of all the
0:26:01 > 0:26:08tensions exist as well.What is the risk with upsetting councils?Is it
0:26:08 > 0:26:12causes local divisions and they want parties to be focused on governing.
0:26:12 > 0:26:19It also threatens to cause tensions between MPs. A lot of MPs see Labour
0:26:19 > 0:26:23councillors as proud bastions of the party and see them as a barrier to
0:26:23 > 0:26:28those who they think are taking too much of a faction or ideological
0:26:28 > 0:26:33approach.What would your message beta Jeremy Corbyn?That the Labour
0:26:33 > 0:26:38Party are very fortunate to have a large cohort of very experienced and
0:26:38 > 0:26:43talented councillors up and down the country. We know what we are doing,
0:26:43 > 0:26:48a us to get on with that.Local councils aside, in Parliament Jeremy
0:26:48 > 0:26:54Corbyn has won the
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Corbyn has won the support of many Labour MPs who now believe he should
0:26:57 > 0:26:59lead them into the next election, but could it be the relationship
0:26:59 > 0:27:02with the wider party in local government that becomes the one that
0:27:02 > 0:27:03is more difficult to manage?
0:27:03 > 0:27:04Emma Vardy reporting.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Jon Trickett is a member of the Shadow Cabinet, and also sits
0:27:07 > 0:27:08on Labour's National Executive Committee.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12He joins me now from Yorkshire.
0:27:12 > 0:27:13He joins me now from Yorkshire.
0:27:14 > 0:27:19We have got the leader of Newcastle City Council, the Labour leader,
0:27:19 > 0:27:23saying this is a declaration of war, the NEC getting involved in the
0:27:23 > 0:27:30local government decision.The first thing to say is Labour is in
0:27:30 > 0:27:33Government throughout this country in local councils, we are very proud
0:27:33 > 0:27:37of our record in local government but the NEC took a decision the
0:27:37 > 0:27:41other day, it was unanimous by the way, nobody voted against it, and
0:27:41 > 0:27:45Nick was in the room. He made a strong case for the autonomy of
0:27:45 > 0:27:49councils and in general that is what we think too. In fact we want to
0:27:49 > 0:27:55bring more powers back to local council...You cannot reconcile
0:27:55 > 0:27:59giving more power to councils with the idea there is a top-down diktats
0:27:59 > 0:28:04on what decisions councils must take.Let me just finish the point
0:28:04 > 0:28:11because what the NEC did was to ask for a pause. We did it politely but
0:28:11 > 0:28:14we said before that should happen, let's have a conversation between
0:28:14 > 0:28:19Haringey and the NEC and that conversation is now taking place or
0:28:19 > 0:28:24Wilby. I think this is an exaggerated row and when people look
0:28:24 > 0:28:29at the facts, we have asked for a pause is not necessarily a change in
0:28:29 > 0:28:36policy, though we think the policy was wrong and we want a conversation
0:28:36 > 0:28:40with Haringey.You are having a conversation between the NEC and
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Haringey. If Haringey Council refused to change their minds about
0:28:44 > 0:28:50this, they will then be subject to a diktats from the NEC, will they not?
0:28:50 > 0:28:53I'm not going to go into a speculative conversation with you
0:28:53 > 0:29:01but let's remember the background to this. This is effectively a huge
0:29:01 > 0:29:05deal outsourcing huge amounts of resources and assets in Haringey. It
0:29:05 > 0:29:11is very controversial and remember this, the NEC received a letter from
0:29:11 > 0:29:1622 Labour councillors on Haringey Council asking for a pause. We
0:29:16 > 0:29:20reacted to that request from within Haringey itself and all of this
0:29:20 > 0:29:25takes in the background of problems at Grenfell and also with the
0:29:25 > 0:29:29collapse of Carillion, both of which I think our matters we need to be
0:29:29 > 0:29:33thinking about when we are thinking in local councils about outsourcing
0:29:33 > 0:29:37additional provision. I am optimistic we will find an amicable
0:29:37 > 0:29:41way forward.It gets to a fundamental policy aspect of the
0:29:41 > 0:29:45Labour Party as to who makes decisions and surely you say some
0:29:45 > 0:29:54Labour councils were concerned about this, the majority of Labour members
0:29:54 > 0:30:00on the council were in favour of it.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04The ruling body of the Labour Party is obliged by the Constitution to
0:30:04 > 0:30:11take a view where there is clearly a dispute within one of our
0:30:11 > 0:30:15constitutional elements. And there was an absolutely clear position
0:30:15 > 0:30:20that there was a dispute. We were asked to intervene. We took a view
0:30:20 > 0:30:24and asked the council to think about it again and agreed to mediation. I
0:30:24 > 0:30:30don't think this is unreasonable. The Constitution of the party
0:30:30 > 0:30:33requires the NEC from time to time to make sure that the constitutional
0:30:33 > 0:30:36elements operate within the policies, programmes and principles
0:30:36 > 0:30:43of the Labour Party. I think it is a storm in a teacup.It is about the
0:30:43 > 0:30:47controversial issue of outsourcing. That is something you are speaking
0:30:47 > 0:30:52out about this week, saying the Labour government would reverse
0:30:52 > 0:30:56outsourcing, setting out clear rules for companies you would give
0:30:56 > 0:30:58contracts to, including the idea that the boss should not be paid
0:30:58 > 0:31:05more than 20 times more than the lowest paid worker. It would be
0:31:05 > 0:31:12quite difficult to find construction companies to build, say, HS2 if
0:31:12 > 0:31:17you're going to stick to those rules?Well, there are all kinds of
0:31:17 > 0:31:20different contracts which are outsourced. Some of them can be done
0:31:20 > 0:31:25by the public sector, others can't. We will be thinking about those
0:31:25 > 0:31:30services which are outsourced. The facts are if you work for the
0:31:30 > 0:31:34Council or the government, the top ratio to the average pay is 20 to
0:31:34 > 0:31:43one. In the private sector it is 156 to one. That means in a year's work
0:31:43 > 0:31:47by a chief executive, the average worker has to work 156 years, almost
0:31:47 > 0:31:53for working like -- lifetimes. We don't think that is how taxpayers
0:31:53 > 0:31:56want the money spent.When you say you won't give government contracts
0:31:56 > 0:32:04to companies who don't have this 20 to one pay ratio you are talking all
0:32:04 > 0:32:10government contracts?We have said we want to move towards a ratio of
0:32:10 > 0:32:1320 to one. I don't think people watching will have any compunction
0:32:13 > 0:32:20to say that is not unreasonable. If you are a boss you should definitely
0:32:20 > 0:32:25earn more than the average pay. But 156 times? I don't think that is
0:32:25 > 0:32:32reasonable.Depends how quickly you would move towards this. If you got
0:32:32 > 0:32:38into government and took over the management of say HS2, and there are
0:32:38 > 0:32:43£7 billion worth of contracts, most are companies which don't fit your
0:32:43 > 0:32:46criteria, would you be cancelling those contracts are maintaining
0:32:46 > 0:32:53contracts with companies that don't fit your pay rules?Contracts which
0:32:53 > 0:32:56are already left, you cannot easily break those contracts, nor should
0:32:56 > 0:33:01you want to. It would be illegal. If the contract was operating in a way
0:33:01 > 0:33:05which was contrary to the contract, clearly we would want to look at
0:33:05 > 0:33:14bringing that back in-house. It is horses for horses -- courses.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17horses for horses -- courses.So you would continue with the contracts
0:33:17 > 0:33:20the government signed for the construction of HS2 even though
0:33:20 > 0:33:26these companies don't meet your criteria?In the case of HS2,
0:33:26 > 0:33:30remember, it went to Carillion, and 20 Carillion after government knew
0:33:30 > 0:33:38they were in trouble.There are ten more companies involved in this.But
0:33:38 > 0:33:42Carillion are in trouble. The truth is the government gave them billions
0:33:42 > 0:33:47of pounds, I think it was £1.4 billion, to a company which was
0:33:47 > 0:33:49clearly going belly up. It is completely wrong.
0:33:49 > 0:33:57Jon Trickett, thank you. I will talk to the panel about what we have
0:33:57 > 0:34:01heard on the programme so far. In Trieste -- interesting ideas from
0:34:01 > 0:34:08Jon Trickett. It would be harder to impose their rules about outsourcing
0:34:08 > 0:34:15and private companies, wouldn't it? Not necessarily. The Carillion thing
0:34:15 > 0:34:21as come at an interesting time. It has exposed in bold the kind of
0:34:21 > 0:34:26suspicion we have had for some time, which is that these PFIs are really
0:34:26 > 0:34:33just a vehicle for private companies to take public funding and not
0:34:33 > 0:34:37deliver on the services that they were supposed to do. It ends up
0:34:37 > 0:34:44costing us more. It is in line with a shift in public mood we have seen.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47There is overwhelming support for nationalisation across sectors, from
0:34:47 > 0:34:54utilities to railways and actually across politics. Conservative voters
0:34:54 > 0:34:59favour nationalisation. It is no wonder that we have this level of
0:34:59 > 0:35:05discontent when we see something like Carillion happen. Yes, it might
0:35:05 > 0:35:08be difficult in the short term to return some of those contracts into
0:35:08 > 0:35:12public hands. But it is going to be cheaper and more efficient and
0:35:12 > 0:35:17better for everyone in the long term, that much is clear.Camilla,
0:35:17 > 0:35:23do you think it is even possible to impose these kinds of rules, the 20
0:35:23 > 0:35:29to one pay ratio, four any company with a government contract?No. And
0:35:29 > 0:35:33as Andrew Gilligan's piece in the Sunday Times showed, a lot of these
0:35:33 > 0:35:39ideological premises have no basis in law whatsoever. Momentum has
0:35:39 > 0:35:45suggested to Capp pay at £60,000. What effect would that have on head
0:35:45 > 0:35:48teachers in Haringey? The people in Haringey did not vote for a
0:35:48 > 0:35:51Momentum, they voted for Labour. Haringey is a broad church. It takes
0:35:51 > 0:35:58in top on one hand and Highgate on the other. Our Momentum's policies
0:35:58 > 0:36:02representative of the constituency as a whole? No. It is deeply
0:36:02 > 0:36:09worrying people are being deselected by people with fanatical views. John
0:36:09 > 0:36:14Landis man is hugely controversial figure. He claims to be a Bastian of
0:36:14 > 0:36:19socialism and socialist policies, yet at the same time we have
0:36:19 > 0:36:21discovered, and the Sunday Express have had a lot of in-depth analysis
0:36:21 > 0:36:25of his own finances, he recently loaned £5,000 to his son's property
0:36:25 > 0:36:34company, which in turn is charged with franchising McDonald's outlets.
0:36:34 > 0:36:41John Landsman is not here to defend himself. Move on from that point.
0:36:41 > 0:36:47Let me bring in Raphael first. Haringey is emblematic of a wider
0:36:47 > 0:36:52thing happening in the Labour Party. You have got the NEC that met this
0:36:52 > 0:36:56week, the first time since you had more Momentum members elected.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Interesting to watch if it changes the decisions they make. How
0:36:58 > 0:37:03worrying will it be people to see them getting involved in something
0:37:03 > 0:37:08as local as the decisions in Haringey?Momentum is a complex
0:37:08 > 0:37:12institution. It is not an ideological phalanx or something
0:37:12 > 0:37:18captured by the hard left. What is very interesting about this is that
0:37:18 > 0:37:21this is a tension within the left and labour that predates Jeremy
0:37:21 > 0:37:29Corbyn and Momentum. You have a tension between people who would
0:37:29 > 0:37:32start with a fixed idea of what it means invincible to be on the left,
0:37:32 > 0:37:37and people who take a slightly more pragmatic view to get elected.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41Broadly within the Labour Party at the moment Jeremy Corbyn as won the
0:37:41 > 0:37:46ideological argument. People have been marginalised. The problem is
0:37:46 > 0:37:50when you had the election last year and labour did better than a lot of
0:37:50 > 0:37:53people thought, including a lot better than Jeremy Corbyn and John
0:37:53 > 0:37:57McDonnell thought, something switched and Labour thought, we can
0:37:57 > 0:38:01do this, we can get into government. Suddenly the pragmatic tendency
0:38:01 > 0:38:06started to appear within the Corbyn movement. The tension is not between
0:38:06 > 0:38:11anti-Corbyn and pro Corbyn. It is about how you sneak up power, not
0:38:11 > 0:38:16alienate too many people. Can you actually win, beat Theresa May and
0:38:16 > 0:38:20get into government? That tension is happening inside the head of Jeremy
0:38:20 > 0:38:23Corbyn and John McDonnell. It is happening inside the head of Jon
0:38:23 > 0:38:25Trickett. We have to leave that now.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28It's coming up to 11.40 - you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Coming up on the programme, the Leader of the Opposition
0:38:30 > 0:38:33and the leader of the free world have been giving their advice
0:38:33 > 0:38:34to the Prime Minister on how to conduct Brexit.
0:38:36 > 0:38:46First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:46 > 0:38:51Hello and welcome to Sunday politics Wales. In a few minutes, why are
0:38:51 > 0:38:54three members of the UK Government or on a committee which is meant to
0:38:54 > 0:38:58scrutinise ministers and as the Lord Kittinger Brexit, what is the view
0:38:58 > 0:39:05from Brussels? But first, what plans does the new secretary for local
0:39:05 > 0:39:08governments have for Welsh councils? Alan Davies says he wants to make a
0:39:08 > 0:39:12number of changes including allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. What
0:39:12 > 0:39:19about council reform? Merging some of Wales' 22 bodies, is that of the
0:39:19 > 0:39:24agenda? I met him at the library of the University of South Wales in
0:39:24 > 0:39:30Newport and at about his plans for voting we form.My focus is on
0:39:30 > 0:39:33strengthening our democracy in Wales. Strengthening it in Cardiff.
0:39:33 > 0:39:39We have new powers in April in some of the issues around letting our
0:39:39 > 0:39:43national Assembly but across the whole of Wales. How we run local
0:39:43 > 0:39:46elections in the future. I think everyone who pays taxes should be
0:39:46 > 0:39:51able to vote and that means people are 16 and 17 as well. I would like
0:39:51 > 0:39:55to see is moving the franchise to enabling young people to take part
0:39:55 > 0:40:00in the democratic process. I also want people who pay council tax but
0:40:00 > 0:40:05may not be UK citizens to be able to vote and I don't just mean the EU
0:40:05 > 0:40:09but were three from across the world who live as a resident and pay
0:40:09 > 0:40:14taxes, you should become part of our democracy. The strength of our
0:40:14 > 0:40:19democracy is modernising it as well. There is something very special
0:40:19 > 0:40:23about a pencil and a cross on a piece of paper. Any will do such
0:40:23 > 0:40:27that technological change, there was a beautiful from the city in using a
0:40:27 > 0:40:32pencil or a piece of paper and recording our vote. We also know
0:40:32 > 0:40:37some people are not just waiting in local elections. We now turn out can
0:40:37 > 0:40:40be very low at different times in different places so we want to
0:40:40 > 0:40:45encourage and enable people to take part in local elections so we're
0:40:45 > 0:40:50looking at creating new powers to enable as to run pilot across Wales
0:40:50 > 0:40:54to see how different forms of voting and counting votes means we can
0:40:54 > 0:40:59drive participation.Electronic voting could be one form of doing
0:40:59 > 0:41:05that. There there other concerns you have about security when it comes to
0:41:05 > 0:41:09making sure those votes are counted correctly?Yes, very real concerns
0:41:09 > 0:41:13about security. That is why we got about pilot and independent
0:41:13 > 0:41:17evaluation through the full commission about designing pilots.
0:41:17 > 0:41:24We do not just talk about electronic voting but also electronic counting.
0:41:24 > 0:41:29Wendy's were outlined a year ago, some changes were suggested about
0:41:29 > 0:41:32how elections were held for councils. Perhaps introducing an
0:41:32 > 0:41:38element of proportional voting there. How have those discussions on
0:41:38 > 0:41:43the councils and towel on board our day do you think?We look at trends
0:41:43 > 0:41:46and in councils and local democratic accountability for councils across
0:41:46 > 0:41:52the whole of Wales and that means council determining themselves how
0:41:52 > 0:41:56they want to be elected. There will be promise of Paris to introduce the
0:41:56 > 0:42:01single transferable vote into local governments elections if people in
0:42:01 > 0:42:08parts of Wales vote for that and want that. We are not imposing that
0:42:08 > 0:42:13on anyone anywhere, we are creating a powerful councils to use if they
0:42:13 > 0:42:20so wish.Within three minutes of the Wales executive committee of the
0:42:20 > 0:42:23Labour Party and CHEERING Debbie Wilcox, the leader of the
0:42:23 > 0:42:32Welsh local Association, said this is something they would not support.
0:42:32 > 0:42:36She said the S NP became the largest party in Scotland overnight. Will
0:42:36 > 0:42:41that happen if you introduce those powers?I sat opposite her when she
0:42:41 > 0:42:46said that as we had a conversation. I suspect the political issues they
0:42:46 > 0:42:50see in Scotland are more fundamental than the means of electing
0:42:50 > 0:42:55councillors are NSPs.Labour councils would be the ones those
0:42:55 > 0:43:02likely to take a hit, when the?If you read the report on council
0:43:02 > 0:43:07elections, you would see that their modelling sees all-party seeing
0:43:07 > 0:43:10changes in representation but none being targeted. It's a different way
0:43:10 > 0:43:15of ensuring fair representation. For someone like me, I'm absolutely
0:43:15 > 0:43:22committed to fair representation and voting.We have heard so often the
0:43:22 > 0:43:28numbers of councillors in Wales are too few. Perhaps it should be fewer.
0:43:28 > 0:43:33Whether you come down on that? Is 20 Julie correct number?We have
0:43:33 > 0:43:40debated this -- is 20 Julie the correct number? There have to be
0:43:40 > 0:43:47some fundamental decisions around this. I have said 22 is the right
0:43:47 > 0:43:51number. That is a fair few of most council leaders I have met and of
0:43:51 > 0:43:54most people across the country. What we need appropriate levels of
0:43:54 > 0:43:59Government, democratic accountability and teenage councils
0:43:59 > 0:44:02that are more powerful than they are today to be able to take decisions
0:44:02 > 0:44:08in the interest of people they represent and able to shake the
0:44:08 > 0:44:13communities they represent for the future. For me, that means more
0:44:13 > 0:44:17power for local authorities and not less. I want to pass more powers to
0:44:17 > 0:44:24local governments and I want local governments to then say to me what
0:44:24 > 0:44:28the structures are the best reflect the needs of local governments for
0:44:28 > 0:44:34the future. I suspect that nobody will come back and argue for 22
0:44:34 > 0:44:40authorities. I also suspect that they want to create new bureaucratic
0:44:40 > 0:44:43arrangements. I suspect people in different parts of the country will
0:44:43 > 0:44:47have different views but what I want to move away from is being a very
0:44:47 > 0:44:53negative debate about structures to a more positive debate about how we
0:44:53 > 0:44:59ensure local accountability, local Government and the delivery of
0:44:59 > 0:45:03excellence.What the Welsh Government have done in the past
0:45:03 > 0:45:05that have this new bill which mandates council to work closely
0:45:05 > 0:45:09together. When she appeared on this programme just before Christmas,
0:45:09 > 0:45:15Debbie Wilcox, said it would be madness to be forced to work
0:45:15 > 0:45:20together. Really did not want council to be forced to do that.
0:45:20 > 0:45:24Though you press ahead with forcing councils to work together or leave
0:45:24 > 0:45:30it to them?I don't want to compel or force anything. I want...That is
0:45:30 > 0:45:37what it entails.Creates junctures which will ensure that people can
0:45:37 > 0:45:43work together. Bat create structures. I thought that they had
0:45:43 > 0:45:47a world-class interview and she outlined a clear vision of the
0:45:47 > 0:45:51future. She did say that the current system is unsustainable last year.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55She said they cannot distinguish structures we have today and I think
0:45:55 > 0:45:59there is broad and widespread agreement on that. You've been a
0:45:59 > 0:46:03journal for many years, I'm sure you've not heard people argue over
0:46:03 > 0:46:07it in that time. What we need to do is find an agreed way forward. I'm
0:46:07 > 0:46:12not interested in going back to the days when you could interview local
0:46:12 > 0:46:16governments and leaders condemning Welsh Government and vice versa. I
0:46:16 > 0:46:21don't want to get back to those days. I don't want to go back to the
0:46:21 > 0:46:25days of rows and arguments. I want to move forward in an agreed
0:46:25 > 0:46:28fashion, treating a local governments readers with respect,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31understanding pressures of local governmental leaders and what they
0:46:31 > 0:46:34are facing and understanding the need to protect our public service
0:46:34 > 0:46:40workforce and a value our public service workforce. It means
0:46:40 > 0:46:43understanding the need to deliver excellent public services to support
0:46:43 > 0:46:46some of the most honourable people in society that I've been an
0:46:46 > 0:46:51education minister for 18 months and they understand the pressures on
0:46:51 > 0:46:57front-line service providers and that means finding an agreed way in
0:46:57 > 0:46:59which we hard-wire democratic accountability and local
0:46:59 > 0:47:03decision-making into how we deliver local services and that is a
0:47:03 > 0:47:08conversation I want to have local governments but I want it based on
0:47:08 > 0:47:15empowering councillors to do more and not less.Thank you.Thank you.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18Now the Welsh affairs select committee any House of Commons is
0:47:18 > 0:47:23supposed to scrutinise the work of the UK governments and its impact on
0:47:23 > 0:47:27Wales but our members watchdogs or poodles? Questions are being raised
0:47:27 > 0:47:32about how the algae governments to account when three work directly for
0:47:32 > 0:47:36ministers, to at the Wales Office, the very same one that they are
0:47:36 > 0:47:41supposed to scrutinise. We ask if the Tories are getting to mark their
0:47:41 > 0:47:46own homework?MPs have had a fondness for fast as before George
0:47:46 > 0:47:51Osborne made- is compulsory. Fact-finding missions are one of the
0:47:51 > 0:47:57perks of committee alive and before devolution, almost every aspect of
0:47:57 > 0:48:00governments including health, education and transport. That was
0:48:00 > 0:48:05then, this is now. The committee shadowing a governor department, the
0:48:05 > 0:48:09Wales Office, with three ministers to know executive powers of the
0:48:09 > 0:48:13committee that has struggled to recruit members. So much so that
0:48:13 > 0:48:19three of these members, Glyn Davies, Simon Davies and Simon Hall, are
0:48:19 > 0:48:30supposed to hold people to account with a workforce.Although they are
0:48:30 > 0:48:34underpaid, they are part of the payroll vote and expected to support
0:48:34 > 0:48:40the governments at all times. Simon Hall is an age to the Education
0:48:40 > 0:48:45Secretary in England but the conflict-of-interest food be
0:48:45 > 0:48:49different when Glyn Davies and Chris Davies both work. They are precisely
0:48:49 > 0:48:59and specifically meant to be scrutinising the work of the office.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03In a way, we are asking members to check their own homework. What is
0:49:03 > 0:49:07the point of the Welsh select? Professor Laura McAllister said
0:49:07 > 0:49:10Brexit and the transfer of powers to Cardiff have increased its
0:49:10 > 0:49:17relevance.Was increasing devolution of power through the various Wales
0:49:17 > 0:49:21and in relation to 2017 so the Assembly requires greater powers
0:49:21 > 0:49:26over taxation and confidence over those areas like transport and
0:49:26 > 0:49:32fishery. In response, make the scrutiny of those areas that are not
0:49:32 > 0:49:37devolved, the reserved areas, even more important.They are allowed to
0:49:37 > 0:49:43sit on site committees marked according to the ministerial code,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45the rule book, there are restrictions on what they can do.
0:49:45 > 0:49:50One should not perhaps technically but it is clear that one can. I
0:49:50 > 0:49:56would have to be careful of not appearing when the Welsh office are
0:49:56 > 0:50:00in front of us to look at investigation into the Wales Office.
0:50:00 > 0:50:06There was more ministerial code. They had recommendations critical of
0:50:06 > 0:50:11our embarrassing to the governments that they should avoid associating
0:50:11 > 0:50:14with.They cannot sign up to any recommendations that the committee
0:50:14 > 0:50:18might want to make if they are critical of the governments. Is it
0:50:18 > 0:50:22an attempt to neuter the Welsh affairs select committee? Who is to
0:50:22 > 0:50:30say? It does have that effect in practice.Myself and Glyn Davies are
0:50:30 > 0:50:35both PPSs to Wales but they have struggled to find five places on the
0:50:35 > 0:50:38committee said it is left to the Conservatives to do the hard work on
0:50:38 > 0:50:44that committee. Labour could not find a Welsh MP to find the last
0:50:44 > 0:50:52vacant seat.I think we have to be more out of looking. We have got
0:50:52 > 0:50:55Thelma Walker and she is the MP for: Valley but the issues we are
0:50:55 > 0:51:02discussing like transport and the impact of Brexit on agriculture are
0:51:02 > 0:51:04key areas that affect us all in the United Kingdom.Labour said the
0:51:04 > 0:51:10Conservatives have a bigger problem and there PPSs should go.At this
0:51:10 > 0:51:16point, with no place for them on the committee.Why not?They are in
0:51:16 > 0:51:20Government and it is not proper scrutiny. If we are going to put on
0:51:20 > 0:51:24ice properly, people want to see us scrutinise and then surely get the
0:51:24 > 0:51:28right answers for the people of Wales.This is a highly unusual
0:51:28 > 0:51:35situation. There is Wales for you, as one MP put it. We're responsible?
0:51:35 > 0:51:37I have the committee and they suggest I talk to the Conservative
0:51:37 > 0:51:48Party. -- I ask the committee. They said not to the Wales Office. They
0:51:48 > 0:51:57pass beyond onto the Cabinet Office. Bat they pass me on to the Cabinet
0:51:57 > 0:52:04Office. The Cabinet Office sent me back to the Wales Office. I was left
0:52:04 > 0:52:10on the wiser.It's absolutely shameful that the UK governments
0:52:10 > 0:52:14have not afforded the committee but some respects. It is reasonable to
0:52:14 > 0:52:19ask whether they treat any other select committee any sane fashion.
0:52:19 > 0:52:25With the ministerial code in mind, will you criticise your own
0:52:25 > 0:52:30Government?I have two dates. I have over the Wales Bill, which is very
0:52:30 > 0:52:34important and I led the opposition for my party against it so it proved
0:52:34 > 0:52:38my independence there but I am a PPS and a member of the Conservative
0:52:38 > 0:52:44Party but I am also a member for my constituency so I will do my job.
0:52:44 > 0:52:49You are on the pay roll now.Without any pay.Put every evidence, three
0:52:49 > 0:52:56of its members will not be able to sign up to critical reports.What is
0:52:56 > 0:53:01the role of the site committee? To offer an effective engine room of
0:53:01 > 0:53:04the scrutiny of the governor department and what affects Wales.
0:53:04 > 0:53:08The truth is that they will all affect Wales in some way, shape or
0:53:08 > 0:53:12form. If a member of that committee is also on the Government payroll, I
0:53:12 > 0:53:18see no way that they cannot become provide at key moments.It is a
0:53:18 > 0:53:21whole year this week since the committee last published a report
0:53:21 > 0:53:26because the general election got in the way. The row over the membership
0:53:26 > 0:53:34mean its future work may get rather more scrutiny. With the Lord
0:53:34 > 0:53:37beginning their scrutiny of the EU withdrawal bill, what is the mood
0:53:37 > 0:53:45over in Brussels over Brexit? I have Labour MEP Derek Vaughan with me.
0:53:45 > 0:53:54Thank you. For -- and MVP with Brexit on the horizon, what is life
0:53:54 > 0:54:07like for a British MVP?For me, it is as normal. -- as a MEP. I have
0:54:07 > 0:54:10been doing report on EU spending in Northern Ireland which is very
0:54:10 > 0:54:14topical. If I had still been there after 2020, unfortunately, I may
0:54:14 > 0:54:19have done the rules and the structure is so Wales lost a lot of
0:54:19 > 0:54:29influenced by leaving EU.What about information after 2021 when the UK
0:54:29 > 0:54:34has efficiently, as they expect, left the European Union?I wrote the
0:54:34 > 0:54:39first report in Parliament. Maybe they gave it to me because they
0:54:39 > 0:54:44thought I might be neutral because I will not be the after 2020 but they
0:54:44 > 0:54:49still trust me they still want me to give the major report so that may
0:54:49 > 0:54:55change as we get closer to 2019. What is their view of Brexit at the
0:54:55 > 0:55:00moment? Is it, as they have been hearing, despair and not quite
0:55:00 > 0:55:06workmanlike? Had with a view that you will be leaving in the UK will
0:55:06 > 0:55:10be leaving?Frustration. They say it is a very difficult to be a shape as
0:55:10 > 0:55:14someone who we do not know what they want. We have seen that every last
0:55:14 > 0:55:24few days. In the divorce settlement, a free element including pain
0:55:24 > 0:55:32financial liabilities. The EU will agree tomorrow on that transitional
0:55:32 > 0:55:36period and the UK will have to pay into that, and baby rules, except
0:55:36 > 0:55:46that. There will also be negotiations on a future trade
0:55:46 > 0:55:49relationship and because the UK governments cannot make their mind
0:55:49 > 0:55:53up, the best you can expect is a candidate time deal and that is the
0:55:53 > 0:56:02position the UK will be end, March. Donald Tusk said it can all be
0:56:02 > 0:56:06revoked and you can come back in if you want. They certainly do not want
0:56:06 > 0:56:16the UK to leave. Can it be possible to revoke that article and that he
0:56:16 > 0:56:21would perhaps be able to stay?The EU do not want us to leave. They
0:56:21 > 0:56:26want us to stay. It was the EU and UK chavvy close as possible
0:56:26 > 0:56:31relationship and the UK does not want that. That is the problem, the
0:56:31 > 0:56:34UK Government has not made up its mind and it is very difficult to
0:56:34 > 0:56:40make any progress in negotiations. You say the UK to remain in the
0:56:40 > 0:56:43European Union but they would not allow them back in on exactly the
0:56:43 > 0:56:49same terms. There would be some... Something in return.That would be
0:56:49 > 0:56:56determined by negotiations and I certainly don't know about that, but
0:56:56 > 0:57:02if we were to revoke Article 50, the don't know if we would have to do
0:57:02 > 0:57:07the join the Schengen zone, that would be a matter of negotiation.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11You think the UK Government is in disarray over its use on Brexit,
0:57:11 > 0:57:15what about the Labour Party? How close do you think the Labour Party
0:57:15 > 0:57:22is to having a settled view?I think my party's position is shifting all
0:57:22 > 0:57:29the time.That is not ideal, is it? Ever shifting the public opinion and
0:57:29 > 0:57:34Labour Party members and supporters' opinions. We know Labour Party
0:57:34 > 0:57:40supporters are members and want to stay in the single union and --
0:57:40 > 0:57:45single market and trade union. I would say on this that cheer Starmer
0:57:45 > 0:57:53set out six conditions as to whether the UK would support the file deal.
0:57:53 > 0:57:59-- Kier Starmer set out. That means they would need the same benefit as
0:57:59 > 0:58:03now. Identical that it's possible to the Labour Party will have an
0:58:03 > 0:58:05proportion decisions you make at that time.You mentioned the
0:58:05 > 0:58:10majority of Labour members want to stay in a single market and Customs
0:58:10 > 0:58:13union, and have the second referendum. This morning, Jeremy
0:58:13 > 0:58:18Corbyn the Andrew Marr programme and ruled all three of those things out.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22He said you cannot stay in a single market because it means staying in
0:58:22 > 0:58:26the customs union and ruled out a second referendum. The membership
0:58:26 > 0:58:30wanted, the leadership won't have it.As time goes on, there will be
0:58:30 > 0:58:37further shifts.Shifts from Jeremy Corbyn?The policy will shift. At
0:58:37 > 0:58:40the moment, we say we would stay in it for the transition period but I
0:58:40 > 0:58:45think we will decide they would stay in the customs union and single
0:58:45 > 0:58:50market permanently. The next shift I want to see it is a Brexit is so
0:58:50 > 0:58:53damaging to the UK economy and public opinion has shifted, we
0:58:53 > 0:58:56should support a vote on the final deal.Anybody listening to Jeremy
0:58:56 > 0:59:01Corbyn this morning at an average using the second referendum would
0:59:01 > 0:59:07say they are probably in denial a little bit now.I don't think so. As
0:59:07 > 0:59:13time goes on, people will see the offer from the EU is much worse than
0:59:13 > 0:59:17they got now and over time, public opinion will change even more. There
0:59:17 > 0:59:25have been a fewer opinion polls already sharing that remain is at
0:59:25 > 0:59:3210%, once it is over that, people will be sitting up and saying, gave
0:59:32 > 0:59:35a vote on the final deal.One of the things that was discussed the Jeremy
0:59:35 > 0:59:38Corbyn this morning, we also discussed that with Stephen Gen X
0:59:38 > 0:59:42and he was here last week, is the Norway model where you pay to be
0:59:42 > 0:59:48part of the single market and so on. -- with Stephen Kinnock. That means
0:59:48 > 0:59:52you can come into a job, stay for six months but you need a job before
0:59:52 > 0:59:55you can come here. Carwyn Jones is very keen on that. Do you think that
0:59:55 > 1:00:00would be a feasible way forward?The best option is to stay in the
1:00:00 > 1:00:05European Union. The second X option would be to say any single market.
1:00:05 > 1:00:10Second-best option. That is the second best option because you would
1:00:10 > 1:00:14still have to pay end. We have to accept everything, like freedom of
1:00:14 > 1:00:17movement, which a lot of people were voting the because of their fears
1:00:17 > 1:00:23over immigration. But we have already said that there are current
1:00:23 > 1:00:28EU rules which say if somebody moves to another country, from another
1:00:28 > 1:00:32country in the EU to the UK, within three months, they have to show they
1:00:32 > 1:00:36can sustain themselves to having a job or their own resources. The
1:00:36 > 1:00:40rules are already there but in the and UK governments are not like
1:00:40 > 1:00:43those rules.In terms of someone coming here for a job, that would
1:00:43 > 1:00:48not get to grips with a fair a lot of people have that EU migration to
1:00:48 > 1:00:54certain sectors were undermining wages in certain areas, not
1:00:54 > 1:00:57addressing the problem.Was no evidence to say that. Academic
1:00:57 > 1:01:05research shows that EU migration hardly affects wages. We look at the
1:01:05 > 1:01:08overall economy, EU migrants could far more into the economy than they
1:01:08 > 1:01:14take out. The last figures I saw for the 2015-16 tax year showed EU
1:01:14 > 1:01:18migrants put into .5 billion pounds per year more than a true outcome
1:01:18 > 1:01:27money we then spend on the services. -- 2.5 Elaine pounds.Thank you for
1:01:27 > 1:01:32coming in. That is it for me at the by-election next week. Remember that
1:01:32 > 1:01:35will be a special programme from the constituency at 10:30pm on
1:01:35 > 1:01:38Wednesday.
1:01:39 > 1:01:41And with that it's back to Sarah.
1:01:47 > 1:01:53Welcome back. There have been plenty of stories this week about Tory
1:01:53 > 1:01:56Brexit angst. What about the Labour Party? Reports suggest Jeremy Corbyn
1:01:56 > 1:02:02is planning a big awayday to thrash out Brexit policy.
1:02:02 > 1:02:10Healy was on Andrew Marr this morning.The problem with the
1:02:10 > 1:02:12undermining of workers' rights and conditions has been a serious one.
1:02:12 > 1:02:18What we are saying is there would be enforcement of the agency agenda
1:02:18 > 1:02:23that the EU has put forward, preventing wholescale groups of
1:02:23 > 1:02:25workers brought in to undercut and undermined. There has to be a
1:02:25 > 1:02:31regulated environment.If you get that, then you could have easy
1:02:31 > 1:02:38movement?We did. We have a recruitment crisis in the NHS now,
1:02:38 > 1:02:40particularly many nurses from Poland and other countries who have
1:02:40 > 1:02:46traditionally gone to work in this country.We are making progress. You
1:02:46 > 1:02:52have agreed to ease of movement... Our expert panel are still here to
1:02:52 > 1:02:56talk about the Labour approach to Brexit and some of the other issues.
1:02:56 > 1:03:00That was Jeremy Corbyn being questioned on the Labour approach to
1:03:00 > 1:03:05free movement of people. When they go on their big awayday this week,
1:03:05 > 1:03:09will we get clarity on the fundamental issues? Do Labour want
1:03:09 > 1:03:14us to stay in the single market and the Customs Union?The key thing to
1:03:14 > 1:03:18understand about the Labour position on Brexit is there a competing
1:03:18 > 1:03:22constituencies the Labour membership as to pay attention to. You have a
1:03:22 > 1:03:28liberal, younger, pro-remain people, ardent supporters of Jeremy Corbyn
1:03:28 > 1:03:32but also passionate against Brexit. They see it as a Ukip culture war
1:03:32 > 1:03:35thing they hate. You have a lot of people living in constituencies who
1:03:35 > 1:03:41have voted Labour who are a little bit Ukip in some of their cultured
1:03:41 > 1:03:47views of the project. They are ardently pro-Brexit. You have an
1:03:47 > 1:03:50ideological left faction, represented in the Labour leader's
1:03:50 > 1:03:55who think the EU is a capitalist thing and we would be better off out
1:03:55 > 1:03:59of it. It is technically hard for the Labour leader to reconcile those
1:03:59 > 1:04:03views. On the Customs Union and the single market, the Labour problem is
1:04:03 > 1:04:11the same as the government problem. Anybody understands that the UK's
1:04:11 > 1:04:14interests are served by being in essentially the single market and
1:04:14 > 1:04:19the Customs Union, but also it happens to be a fact that the UK has
1:04:19 > 1:04:22voted to leave the European Union. If you stay on the Customs Union and
1:04:22 > 1:04:26the single market, the Norwegian model, a lot of people will feel
1:04:26 > 1:04:32that is not enough Brexit. They simply don't have answers to these
1:04:32 > 1:04:36questions. They recognise what economic reality is telling them to
1:04:36 > 1:04:39do and they haven't found a way of expressing that economic reality to
1:04:39 > 1:04:45the 52% of people devoted to leave. Then you enter up with the kind of
1:04:45 > 1:04:49conversation Jeremy Corbyn was having with Andrew Marr. The policy
1:04:49 > 1:04:52becomes a little bit confused as to whether they are in favour of free
1:04:52 > 1:04:56movement, easy movement. Free movement is not a phrase he wants to
1:04:56 > 1:05:00use. He doesn't want to close the barriers. It all looks a bit
1:05:00 > 1:05:05confused?Nobody has ever suggested ending free movement means ending
1:05:05 > 1:05:10immigration completely. One of the main tranches of the Brexit argument
1:05:10 > 1:05:16was to make it fairer for non-EU immigrants to come to the country.
1:05:16 > 1:05:20Currently working occupational shortage lists are used to get
1:05:20 > 1:05:24people to come in. If we need more doctors, choreographers, dancers,
1:05:24 > 1:05:28then we should put them at the top of the tree and say, these are the
1:05:28 > 1:05:33people who want to come in. Equally, we need seasonal workers. There is
1:05:33 > 1:05:36an itinerant against uncontrolled immigration. That is what the EU
1:05:36 > 1:05:40immigration system is perceived to be. And controlled immigration. It
1:05:40 > 1:05:44has inevitably led to complaints on the Remain side of things that we
1:05:44 > 1:05:48will suddenly have no doctors and nurses. There was a row about that
1:05:48 > 1:05:53recently. The latest ONS figures suggest there has been a 5.4% rise
1:05:53 > 1:05:59in EU doctors and nurses coming into Britain. We will see. To be fair to
1:05:59 > 1:06:01Jeremy Corbyn Knipe body gave a pretty good account of himself today
1:06:01 > 1:06:08and answered questions in a fairly straight way. He did a better job of
1:06:08 > 1:06:11explaining Labour's Brexit position than Kier Starmer has been doing for
1:06:11 > 1:06:18weeks.It has been difficult for a Labour spokespeople to outline the
1:06:18 > 1:06:23policy on Brexit. There doesn't appear to be a clear policy. Do you
1:06:23 > 1:06:27think they are moving to a position where they will have a much more
1:06:27 > 1:06:35defined approach to what they want? First of all, I think Rafael's
1:06:35 > 1:06:38description was a bit of a mischaracterisation. The Labour
1:06:38 > 1:06:45position now is we're Remainers that accept a democratic vote has taken
1:06:45 > 1:06:48place and we need to exit the EU because that was the result. We need
1:06:48 > 1:06:52to do that in a way that keeps business and jobs and the economy
1:06:52 > 1:06:57vibrant. In a way that the Conservatives showed no particular
1:06:57 > 1:07:02sign of caring about. It is not that they think the EU is a dastardly
1:07:02 > 1:07:06project, it is more like, this is what people voted for, how do we do
1:07:06 > 1:07:14it? There is no point in the Labour Party at running the government on
1:07:14 > 1:07:19Brexit. There is no point in the Labour Party saying, this is exactly
1:07:19 > 1:07:21what we would do, when the government is the one in the driving
1:07:21 > 1:07:26seat. They are controlling the negotiations, they get to decide
1:07:26 > 1:07:31what is going on. What Labour can do in this reality is challenge the
1:07:31 > 1:07:34government when they think they are wrong, as they have done in fact
1:07:34 > 1:07:39since the negotiations began. We have got a transition period. We
1:07:39 > 1:07:43have got various things. We have got a parliamentary vote at the end of
1:07:43 > 1:07:51Brexit. That is because of Labour putting pressure on government. You
1:07:51 > 1:07:58can take credit. You can put it where you want to. We're having a
1:07:58 > 1:08:02discussion about what the Labour Party position on Brexit is. I am
1:08:02 > 1:08:06saying, where is the wisdom of Labour overrunning the government,
1:08:06 > 1:08:10which is controlling negotiations? The other thing that is important to
1:08:10 > 1:08:17says the party position is very responsive and it is changing. As I
1:08:17 > 1:08:19understand that they are very responsive to all the polling on
1:08:19 > 1:08:26positions around a referendum.How unusual for the Labour Party to
1:08:26 > 1:08:32respond to public opinion.But that's just democratic, isn't it,
1:08:32 > 1:08:38Rafael? They are responsive to the conversations they are having with
1:08:38 > 1:08:43their EU sister parties in Europe. They are listening to all these
1:08:43 > 1:08:49things. And calibrating as things go on.Donald Trump had some advice as
1:08:49 > 1:08:54to how we should approach the EU negotiations. Aimed at the Prime
1:08:54 > 1:08:56Minister not Jeremy Corbyn. This is how he said he would approach
1:08:56 > 1:09:00negotiations. Would it be the way I would
1:09:00 > 1:09:07negotiate? No. I have a lot of respect for your Prime Minister. I
1:09:07 > 1:09:11think they are doing a job. I think I would've negotiated it
1:09:11 > 1:09:14differently. I would have had a different attitude.What would you
1:09:14 > 1:09:20have done?I would have said the European Union is not cracked up to
1:09:20 > 1:09:23what it is supposed to be and I would have taken a tougher stand in
1:09:23 > 1:09:27getting out.A few in the Conservative Party would probably
1:09:27 > 1:09:32agree with Donald Trump. Is that helpful to the Prime Minister?
1:09:32 > 1:09:35Coming after what was a helpful week from Donald Trump in terms of
1:09:35 > 1:09:38relations with the Prime Minister, his love of Britain and his promise
1:09:38 > 1:09:44of tremendous trade in Davos, perhaps it is a bit of a slide.
1:09:44 > 1:09:47Actually this morning we heard Piers Morgan described Donald Trump, his
1:09:47 > 1:09:52close friend, as a ball china shop. That would be his approach to
1:09:52 > 1:09:56negotiations. Perhaps David Cameron should have taken more a bit Donald
1:09:56 > 1:10:00Trump approach when he tried to reform the EU from the inside, which
1:10:00 > 1:10:04in the end his failure to do so led to the referendum we are now
1:10:04 > 1:10:08debating.There are lots in the Conservative Party, lots of
1:10:08 > 1:10:12backbench Brexiteers, who think that is what has gone wrong, that the
1:10:12 > 1:10:15government has made too many concessions to the EU, hasn't been
1:10:15 > 1:10:23hard enough in the divorce period. Yes, a lot of those people are not
1:10:23 > 1:10:27in government and have not got a practical -- practical reality of
1:10:27 > 1:10:30what is required to take the UK out of European Union. Everything Donald
1:10:30 > 1:10:34Trump is said about international policy, particularly with regard to
1:10:34 > 1:10:37Europe and the European Union, demonstrated as not have a great
1:10:37 > 1:10:41understanding of what the EU is as a project or an institution. If I was
1:10:41 > 1:10:44a Tory Brexiteer I would be a bit concerned about Donald Trump been
1:10:44 > 1:10:49very enthusiastic about the project, because for a lot of liberal minded,
1:10:49 > 1:10:52moderate people in the broad mainstream of public life and
1:10:52 > 1:10:57politics, Donald Trump is absolutely toxic. The idea that Brexit is a
1:10:57 > 1:11:03sibling project -- project is damaging. Theresa May will want to
1:11:03 > 1:11:07make it distinct from what Donald Trump is doing.One other
1:11:07 > 1:11:11intervention today is Grant Schapps has been out in the papers. He has
1:11:11 > 1:11:15said it is becoming increasingly clear we cannot continue to muddle
1:11:15 > 1:11:21along like this. Mrs May should name a date. By that he means a date by
1:11:21 > 1:11:24which she will exit Number 10 and stopping Prime Minister. He wants a
1:11:24 > 1:11:28timetable. He says if that doesn't happen there may be a revolt.
1:11:28 > 1:11:34Rachel, it is not what she needs, is it?Is not what she needs. It is
1:11:34 > 1:11:37maybe what the country needs. She has been put on notice. She has been
1:11:37 > 1:11:42told of things don't improve by May, which is when there are local
1:11:42 > 1:11:45elections, including in major cities, if the Conservative Party do
1:11:45 > 1:11:50as badly in those as they are expected to, and predicted two, then
1:11:50 > 1:11:58there may be more moves to get rid of her. It is not surprising, is it?
1:11:58 > 1:12:02The situation is completely untenable. We can't model along like
1:12:02 > 1:12:08this, having a Prime Minister or can't lead.Graham Bailey, the chair
1:12:08 > 1:12:15of the 19 -- 1922 committee, said he keeps getting letters from backbench
1:12:15 > 1:12:21MPs who want to trigger a leadership contest -- contest. They say it is
1:12:21 > 1:12:25getting nearly 40 mark. That sounds like they are warning MPs, please
1:12:25 > 1:12:28don't send in any more letters because you may trigger a leadership
1:12:28 > 1:12:33contest. Is that a real threat?I think the notion of Graham Brady
1:12:33 > 1:12:38being ashen faced is probably quite true. There are a lot of stories
1:12:38 > 1:12:41today saying that eight of the new intake are prepared to give letters
1:12:41 > 1:12:47in. Some of the old schools. Problems among Remainers and
1:12:47 > 1:12:53Brexiteers. After recent may need to do is take hold of the situation. --
1:12:53 > 1:13:00what to May needs to do is take hold of the situation. She needs a third
1:13:00 > 1:13:03keynote speech on Brexit to take control, to silence the critics.
1:13:03 > 1:13:08Boris Johnson is due to give his own landmark speech on a so-called
1:13:08 > 1:13:11liberal Brexit, which I'm sure Rachel will be looking forward to
1:13:11 > 1:13:15hearing. Perhaps Theresa May should seize the moment, take control and
1:13:15 > 1:13:20put her own new stamp, so people are not just mentioning Lancaster House
1:13:20 > 1:13:25and Florence but a Newsbeat.A big danger for Theresa May is not
1:13:25 > 1:13:30Brexit. There are a lot of Tory MPs who think Brexit is taking care of
1:13:30 > 1:13:32itself. They are worried about the NHS. We
1:13:32 > 1:13:33have to leave it there.
1:13:33 > 1:13:34That's all for today.
1:13:34 > 1:13:36Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.
1:13:36 > 1:13:40Until then, bye bye.