0:00:39 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:45 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in the
0:00:47 > 0:00:49world of politics.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Theresa May is back after her trip to China.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54But there's plenty of fire and fury from within her own party over
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Brexit and her ability to lead.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00The Conservative chairman joins me live.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Labour tells demonstrators only it can save the NHS.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05So, do the party's health spending plans add up?
0:01:05 > 0:01:09We'll talk to the Shadow Health Secretary.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Months on from the sexual harassment and bullying scandal that
0:01:11 > 0:01:13engulfed Westminster, we'll be asking what's happened
0:01:13 > 0:01:18to plans for Parliament to clean up its act.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25And a violent scuffle at a speech by one Tory MP has been widely
0:01:25 > 0:01:26condemned.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29But is it symptomatic of a wider problem in politics?
0:01:29 > 0:01:32In London, a Labour council leader bullied out of power by the left.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Later in the programme, how can the opposition work together
0:01:34 > 0:01:36to challenge Labour in the Assembly?
0:01:36 > 0:01:37And is Carwyn Jones' authority ebbing away?
0:01:37 > 0:01:38That's the view of one of Wales foremost political commentators.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57And, as one newspaper speculates about a 'dream team' being urged
0:01:57 > 0:02:00to take over at Number 10, we've got our own dream team
0:02:00 > 0:02:02of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:02:02 > 0:02:03and Steve Richards.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05And they've promised not to plot against me...
0:02:05 > 0:02:07At least until the end of the show.
0:02:07 > 0:02:08So, the Prime Minister may have been out
0:02:08 > 0:02:12of the country to drum up trade but, even from 5,000 miles away, it
0:02:12 > 0:02:14must have been hard to ignore the continuing unrest
0:02:14 > 0:02:15from some in her party,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19and repeated calls to be clearer about Brexit.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Theresa May was in China this week, where she gave President Xi Jinping
0:02:23 > 0:02:27DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder of the dangers of plastic pollution.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Back home, Conservative MPs gave her some advice on how to lead
0:02:30 > 0:02:33the party and the Government.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Some advice was offered to Cabinet ministers
0:02:35 > 0:02:37getting restless on Brexit.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40The best way they can support her is to take a vow
0:02:40 > 0:02:42of silence on the subject.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44But most was for the Prime Minister herself.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Some even aired their thoughts in public.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49I do think the window is closed because politics can be
0:02:49 > 0:02:51quite a brutal game.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55When is the Government going to stand up against the hard
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Brexiteers who mainly inhabit these benches?
0:02:58 > 0:03:00She does not actually have a majority for her
0:03:00 > 0:03:02policy in her Cabinet.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06It was advice of a different kind that hit the Government
0:03:06 > 0:03:08when BuzzFeed published leaked civil service analysis suggesting that,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11under various off-the-shelf trading models, the UK would be less well
0:03:11 > 0:03:15off in 15 years than if we'd stayed in the EU.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20But Brexit Minister Steve Baker wasn't worried about the forecasts.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24I think that they are always wrong, and wrong for good reasons.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26The analysis was grist to the mill for Brexit critics,
0:03:26 > 0:03:32but Theresa May probably didn't expect one minister to pile in.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Justice Department's Phillip Lee said the leaked report couldn't just
0:03:35 > 0:03:38be dismissed and that, if anywhere near correct,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41it raised a serious question about current Brexit policy.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44But that's thinking 15 years ahead.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47One former Brexit Minister George Bridges took aim at the Government
0:03:47 > 0:03:52and the House of Lords for still not knowing what it wanted.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57All we hear day after day are conflicting, confusing voices.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Theresa May returned from China saying she had secured £9 billion
0:03:59 > 0:04:03of business deals during the trip.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Local media dubbed her Auntie May, while International Trade Secretary
0:04:06 > 0:04:09Liam Fox said her middle name is 'resilience', claiming foreign
0:04:09 > 0:04:14leaders were well aware of Theresa May's strength.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17You look at the Prime Minister in a different way than some of,
0:04:17 > 0:04:23let's say, the internal tea room discussions in the UK do.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26While at home there was speculation about her ability to lead,
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Auntie May herself was clear.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I am not a quitter.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32She will be relieved the only resignation she was offered this
0:04:32 > 0:04:37week was from a minister who'd shown up late to Parliament.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40I'm thoroughly ashamed at not being in my place,
0:04:40 > 0:04:42and therefore I shall be offering my resignation
0:04:42 > 0:04:43to the Prime Minister.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46But with open warfare in her party, calls to step up her game,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48and a crucial Cabinet meeting on Brexit within days,
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Theresa May knows she needs to do something special to ensure the next
0:04:52 > 0:04:56departure isn't hers.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57departure isn't hers.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07There is plenty to talk about with my panel of political insiders. It
0:05:07 > 0:05:12feels like Theresa May's worst week since last week that she began the
0:05:12 > 0:05:17show but talking about how difficult it was with fights within the party.
0:05:17 > 0:05:24Is it even worse? It is about the same. What is interesting, if I can
0:05:24 > 0:05:31put this in some context, I am working in a project with the Prime
0:05:31 > 0:05:36Minister at the moment. Many Prime Minister 's worry about being
0:05:36 > 0:05:41deposed but it is rare to happen. From 1968 Harold Wilson was in
0:05:41 > 0:05:50trouble and he survived another eight years. I'm not predicting...
0:05:50 > 0:05:53John Major survived until the general election. This is a constant
0:05:53 > 0:05:59theme in British politics that Prime Minister 's are rarely deposed at
0:05:59 > 0:06:03the moment I work on the assumption she will be around for some time to
0:06:03 > 0:06:08come.It is highly distracting though. It cannot help with the
0:06:08 > 0:06:16issue of the Government or wrecks it for that matter.All of Theresa
0:06:16 > 0:06:21May's woes art of her own making. It is about showing backbone and spine
0:06:21 > 0:06:25and having a Brexit policy and sticking with it. I find it
0:06:25 > 0:06:30extraordinary we will have two meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet
0:06:30 > 0:06:34on Wednesday and Thursday of this week to decide the Brexit policy.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39She has been in office for a long time it is a long time since the
0:06:39 > 0:06:43last election. It is a total travesty of leadership that is going
0:06:43 > 0:06:48on. All of her problems are of her own making. She could be doing with
0:06:48 > 0:06:51warring factions in her party, the opposition and all the other
0:06:51 > 0:06:55threats, just to be a strong Prime Minister. Making it clear to the
0:06:55 > 0:07:01likes of Philip Hammond, you are doubtful that he should have been
0:07:01 > 0:07:08out a long time ago if she had the will and strength to do so.Is it
0:07:08 > 0:07:11not by being ambiguous about her position on terror, and she has been
0:07:11 > 0:07:18able to remain as leader of the Conservative Party?Completely. I
0:07:18 > 0:07:21disagree with Julia and Steve that there is a third way in all of this.
0:07:21 > 0:07:28I believe all her problems are not of her own making. Brexit was not of
0:07:28 > 0:07:32her own making. She somehow had to try to get this through parliament
0:07:32 > 0:07:41where she has no majority, where she has eight Cabinet split and it is a
0:07:41 > 0:07:44huge problem. The only reason she is there is because she has not made a
0:07:44 > 0:07:49big decision, she has not got off the fence she is trying to keep the
0:07:49 > 0:07:54ship together and compromise. As was said in the brilliant speech in the
0:07:54 > 0:07:59House of Lords, to govern is to choose. Tony Blair said that this is
0:07:59 > 0:08:03the year of choice. The next six months will be the six months of
0:08:03 > 0:08:08choices for Theresa May. User needs to get the choices on Brexit, market
0:08:08 > 0:08:13control, sovereignty, access to huge, great big decisions. She needs
0:08:13 > 0:08:22to get that past four different hurdles was achieved to get the
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Cabinet on board among her own MPs to stay alive and stay in charge
0:08:25 > 0:08:28having made those decisions. Then she has too persuade the EU to buy
0:08:28 > 0:08:33whatever it is she will sell. I find it very, very hard indeed to think
0:08:33 > 0:08:37she will get over all four hurdles by the end of the year. Therefore I
0:08:37 > 0:08:41am afraid I cannot see her as leading the Tory Party by the end of
0:08:41 > 0:08:46it.I think it would be risky for anyone to make any predictions. Can
0:08:46 > 0:08:55I point out that 2018 was not the year of choice?2016 was the year of
0:08:55 > 0:09:00choice. I care about what the British electorate wants. The
0:09:00 > 0:09:04British electorate made their choice in 2016. Theresa May did not
0:09:04 > 0:09:11increase her majority of the 85% of people voted for two major parties
0:09:11 > 0:09:15in the Ukip and the other parties supported Brexit. There is a mandate
0:09:15 > 0:09:19we need to get on and do the will of the British people.I completely
0:09:19 > 0:09:23agree with Tom about these hurdles. They are almost impossible to get
0:09:23 > 0:09:29over. But that would apply to any Prime Minister. So, you have to ask
0:09:29 > 0:09:33the question, what does it solve? In the longer term, changing leader
0:09:33 > 0:09:38might give the more electoral success, who knows? But it does not
0:09:38 > 0:09:42solve getting over those hurdles you could have Boris Johnson saying,
0:09:42 > 0:09:49Britain can rule the waves. Those hurdles will still be there.But a
0:09:49 > 0:09:51Prime Minister who knew more about... .Mac will come back to this
0:09:51 > 0:09:55later in the programme. In the meantime we will move on.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, has been speaking this morning
0:09:58 > 0:10:00to the Andrew Marr Show, and she claimed the Cabinet
0:10:00 > 0:10:02isn't as divided over Brexit as some claim.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05I have a surprise for the Brexiteers, which is the committee
0:10:05 > 0:10:08that meets in order to help make these decisions, is meeting, as you
0:10:08 > 0:10:10rightly say, twice this week, is more united than they think.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13We meet in the committee, we meet privately for discussions.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15I think we will arrive at something which suits us all.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19There will be choices to be made within them but we all want the same
0:10:19 > 0:10:22thing, which is to arrive at a deal that works for the UK, that
0:10:22 > 0:10:24looks ahead.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27It's not just about protecting trade behind us, it's about looking ahead
0:10:27 > 0:10:29to what kind of country we want to be afterwards.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31We all have those interests at heart.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33And I'm joined now by the chairman of the Conservative Party,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38Brandon Lewis.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd is saying the Cabinet is more united
0:10:42 > 0:10:45than people think. The parties that he doesn't look that way from some
0:10:45 > 0:10:49of the things they have heard this week. It is your job to get them on
0:10:49 > 0:10:53the same page in order to make that happen, do you need to spell out a
0:10:53 > 0:11:02vision of what Brexit will look like so they can get behind it?It is
0:11:02 > 0:11:06like what Amber said. The Cabinet is united behind the Prime Minister to
0:11:06 > 0:11:12make sure we get a good deal for the European Union.We are hearing lots
0:11:12 > 0:11:19of noises, complaining. They want to know more about what the end state
0:11:19 > 0:11:26will be otherwise they will row more.Where I disagree is all MPs,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31certainly in the Conservative Party, are united in seeing we get a good
0:11:31 > 0:11:36deal on leaving the EU for the United Kingdom.Bernard Jenkin
0:11:36 > 0:11:41saying we need to end confusion in government. They are complaining
0:11:41 > 0:11:45about the present uncertainty. Working out what is the right deal
0:11:45 > 0:11:48for the United Kingdom. In negotiations we are having with a 27
0:11:48 > 0:11:52partners who want to continue to trade with in the European Union is
0:11:52 > 0:11:56a very serious and, located piece of work. We never said this was an easy
0:11:56 > 0:12:01piece of work and it is why there are meetings of the subcommittee in
0:12:01 > 0:12:06the Cabinet going through the details. We have the deal, the first
0:12:06 > 0:12:12stage of the deal, before Christmas. We must look to the next stage which
0:12:12 > 0:12:16is agreeing the situation in the period of translation after March
0:12:16 > 0:12:212000 and 19. The ultimate deal that we want, for people in the United
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Kingdom, after the transition period as well.We're all waiting with
0:12:25 > 0:12:32breath. Your backbenchers, whatever side of the other in they are on the
0:12:32 > 0:12:36desperately want to know what the end state will look like. After the
0:12:36 > 0:12:41Cabinet subcommittees meet later in the week, we get more detail?There
0:12:41 > 0:12:45are a couple of key issues. Within Brexit we have been very clear.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49We're going to leave the European Union, and the customs union. We
0:12:49 > 0:12:55want to make sure we can leave the control of the Borders to the United
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Kingdom, the Government of the United Kingdom. When I am talking to
0:12:58 > 0:13:03residents, across the country, they also want to know that the Prime
0:13:03 > 0:13:08Minister is focused on issues that matter to people every day. They're
0:13:08 > 0:13:10getting good education or housing opportunities for people. The
0:13:10 > 0:13:14knowledge and confidence there will be growth in the economy and
0:13:14 > 0:13:18security in the future as well.It is hard for the Dublin to get on
0:13:18 > 0:13:23with that whenever such a fight within the party among backbenchers
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and senior influential people, coming out and criticising the
0:13:26 > 0:13:30party, criticising the leadership. Until there is more clarity on
0:13:30 > 0:13:36Brexit you will not be able
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Brexit you will not be able to get on with the other policies because
0:13:42 > 0:13:45there is such a row in the party.We have a range of views, expertise and
0:13:45 > 0:13:48great talent to draw on all stop people putting their ideas forward.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Jacob is a really good example of that. We saw what happened the other
0:13:51 > 0:13:54night with the hard left doing everything they can to try to stop
0:13:54 > 0:13:57people having their safest we have to ultimately make decisions about
0:13:57 > 0:14:05what we think is right for the country in the longer run. -- having
0:14:05 > 0:14:09their say about what we have to ultimately make decisions about.Do
0:14:09 > 0:14:19you worry whether there is a hidden agenda?My experience has been the
0:14:19 > 0:14:23civil service in this country has been superb. They work hard in the
0:14:23 > 0:14:27best interests of the Government. It is their job to give impartial
0:14:27 > 0:14:31views. You think they do? That is one reason why the world is envious
0:14:31 > 0:14:36of our civil service and rightly so. Our job as ministers and the
0:14:36 > 0:14:41Government ultimately is to make decisions on their behalf as you
0:14:41 > 0:14:44give consideration and ultimately we are the ones who have to make the
0:14:44 > 0:14:49decisions.Jacob Rees Mogg says they are fiddling the figures and putting
0:14:49 > 0:14:55out information that is wrong.As Amber Rudd herself said, one of the
0:14:55 > 0:15:02most gracious and intelligent people I know, on this, I slightly
0:15:02 > 0:15:07disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In the leaked reports, which have not
0:15:07 > 0:15:12been approved and signed off by ministers, it is about forecasts. It
0:15:12 > 0:15:16does not take into account what the final negotiation will be nor the
0:15:16 > 0:15:19final decisions let alone the domestic policy, which we are
0:15:19 > 0:15:25getting on with. Making sure that people have opportunities and
0:15:25 > 0:15:28businesses can grow.You mentioned the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was
0:15:28 > 0:15:32involved in earlier in the week, some fairly ugly scenes which no one
0:15:32 > 0:15:35wants to see those that you have plans to tackle intimidation in
0:15:35 > 0:15:40political life?
0:15:40 > 0:15:44We cannot allow the hard left to create a situation where people feel
0:15:44 > 0:15:49so intimidated they are not prepared to come forward and have their say.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54What we are seeing, and what we saw in the report is actually people on
0:15:54 > 0:15:57the left giving horrendous abuse to people across the political
0:15:57 > 0:16:02spectrum. I do agree, whether someone's views are at the centre,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05right or left, they should have the freedom and knowledge they can come
0:16:05 > 0:16:13forward and stand as a candidate. We are going to change the law to make
0:16:13 > 0:16:21it against the law for people to intimidate people. But also from the
0:16:21 > 0:16:26Conservative Party point of view, internally we will have a respect
0:16:26 > 0:16:34pledge that all of our candidates will sign up to. If they breach that
0:16:34 > 0:16:40cold, we will suspend them.It's often Labour politicians who are the
0:16:40 > 0:16:45target of a lot of abuse. It is Diane Abbott who gets far and away
0:16:45 > 0:16:50the most abuse on Twitter. How can you be sure these aren't members of
0:16:50 > 0:16:55your own party or your own supporters who are abusing left-wing
0:16:55 > 0:17:00politicians?We have to differentiate. We should be able to
0:17:00 > 0:17:04robust we have our debates. I have debated with Diane Abbott over her
0:17:04 > 0:17:12inability to get her numbers right on police numbers. We have seen the
0:17:12 > 0:17:21Shadow Chancellor... However it is from, it is not acceptable. I will
0:17:21 > 0:17:26deal with that. We need to have good, clear, freedom of speech,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30robust debate with respect and I respect the Labour Party to do the
0:17:30 > 0:17:36right thing and condemn what we saw the other night, and see the
0:17:36 > 0:17:39leadership do the right thing. There's no evidence it had anything
0:17:39 > 0:17:45to do the Labour Party.What we do know is when you have the Shadow
0:17:45 > 0:17:50Chancellor of the country encouraging abuse of people
0:17:50 > 0:17:56individually...He denies that. He says he actually argues against that
0:17:56 > 0:18:04and says he condemned it.What anybody can see, anybody can look up
0:18:04 > 0:18:08what John McDonnell said. We have not seen anyone in the senior
0:18:08 > 0:18:12echelons of the Labour Party do anything to condemn this kind of
0:18:12 > 0:18:17action or come out and say they will sign up to a respect pledge but we
0:18:17 > 0:18:22will do that.Getting back to the Tory party, it is not just the
0:18:22 > 0:18:26ructions that have erupted this week, there has been a lot of
0:18:26 > 0:18:30criticism of Theresa May's leadership, Heidi Allen saying it
0:18:30 > 0:18:35was time to get a grip and lead, another MP said he had a profound
0:18:35 > 0:18:44fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader if they don't get their act
0:18:44 > 0:18:48together. It is difficult to manage a febrile situation in which a large
0:18:48 > 0:18:53number of your MPs don't seem to want Theresa May to lead the party
0:18:53 > 0:19:02into the next election.I know Heidi and Johnnie very well. I have heard
0:19:02 > 0:19:05him be very clear that Theresa May is the right person to lead the
0:19:05 > 0:19:12country and actually Theresa May as someone who cares passionately about
0:19:12 > 0:19:16getting fairness in society, opportunity for people...Why do
0:19:16 > 0:19:20your own MPs not appear to understand that?We should all be
0:19:20 > 0:19:27uniting behind our leader.Funnily enough that is what David Lidington
0:19:27 > 0:19:31said on the Andrew Marr Show last week when he said it was time to
0:19:31 > 0:19:36come together in a spirit of mutual respect. Will they listen to you
0:19:36 > 0:19:41this week, stop the sniping from the sidelines?I have been speaking to
0:19:41 > 0:19:45colleagues and myself, what I get consistently is they want us to be
0:19:45 > 0:19:52focused on the job we should be doing. The job I think most of your
0:19:52 > 0:19:57viewers would want us to get on with is delivering a good Brexit but also
0:19:57 > 0:20:01we have a domestic agenda to deliver, like supporting the NHS,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06making sure businesses can grow, people keeping more money in their
0:20:06 > 0:20:11pocket and a country that is growing and optimistic about its future
0:20:11 > 0:20:14opportunities.One Conservative council got itself in trouble this
0:20:14 > 0:20:18week, they run out of money in Northamptonshire. The leader of the
0:20:18 > 0:20:23council said they had been warning the Government from about 2014 that
0:20:23 > 0:20:29they couldn't cope with the level of cuts they were facing. Did you not
0:20:29 > 0:20:36listen to her?
0:20:36 > 0:20:45listen to her?Across local government councils hopping -- ... I
0:20:45 > 0:20:52do think there are more efficiencies that can be found.In
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Northamptonshire they say they have actually run out of money.District
0:20:55 > 0:21:00authorities can look at how they can do more, about sharing services,
0:21:00 > 0:21:05sharing senior management and saving substantial amounts of money. I
0:21:05 > 0:21:08would encourage those local authorities to look at that
0:21:08 > 0:21:11opportunity because it means they can put more of their time and
0:21:11 > 0:21:16effort and the money they do have is focusing on giving good first-class
0:21:16 > 0:21:21services.You are of course going to allow them to raise council tax, and
0:21:21 > 0:21:24we have had warnings from other Tory run councils as well saying they are
0:21:24 > 0:21:29running out of money. It is a bit difficult though isn't it when you
0:21:29 > 0:21:35have prided yourself on low taxes that many people are likely to see
0:21:35 > 0:21:42pretty big rises in their council tax.We have to make difficult
0:21:42 > 0:21:48decisions due to the economic legacy we inherited. Council tax roughly
0:21:48 > 0:21:52doubled under Labour, I was a council leader where the party had
0:21:52 > 0:21:57run my counsel at the time with increases of 16% year-on-year. We
0:21:57 > 0:22:05have brought that back down so we had the council tax freeze, and I
0:22:05 > 0:22:08would encourage council leaders to look at how they spend their money.
0:22:08 > 0:22:15But council taxes will be going up, you reckon?They will be using the
0:22:15 > 0:22:20ability they have to raise it a few percent to give good local services.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24People are looking at how efficient they are, how they are focused on
0:22:24 > 0:22:28their local needs to get good Conservative governments in May this
0:22:28 > 0:22:30year.Thank you.
0:22:30 > 0:22:31Yesterday, thousands of people marched on the rainy
0:22:31 > 0:22:34streets of London to protest against what organisers described
0:22:34 > 0:22:35as a crisis in NHS funding.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36The Shadow Health Secretary, Jonathan Ashworth,
0:22:36 > 0:22:39was there and told the crowds that under Labour
0:22:39 > 0:22:41there would be more money for the NHS, higher pay for staff,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45and privatisation would end.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49No more PFI hospitals.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51No more Carillion outsourcing, leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,
0:22:51 > 0:22:56affecting patient safety.
0:22:56 > 0:22:56affecting patient safety.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01And we're putting Virgin Care, and organisations like
0:23:01 > 0:23:02that, on notice today.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04No more suing of the NHS, no more privatisation.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06Privatisation comes to the end with a Labour government,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09as we get rid of that Lansley Act and restore, and indeed reinstate,
0:23:09 > 0:23:14a public National Health Service.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25And Jonathan Ashworth is back in his constituency in Leicester.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30He joins me from there now.
0:23:30 > 0:23:38Good morning. On that March you were demanding the NHS get the funding it
0:23:38 > 0:23:41needs but we have been looking back at Labour's manifesto and you
0:23:41 > 0:23:46weren't really promising very much more money for the NHS than the Tory
0:23:46 > 0:23:53government says it will deliver.We would be putting in an extra £5
0:23:53 > 0:23:58billion into the NHS this year. You will recall that Simon Stevens, the
0:23:58 > 0:24:02head of the NHS, was asking for an extra four billion this year. They
0:24:02 > 0:24:07didn't get that in the November budget but we would put an extra £5
0:24:07 > 0:24:12billion into the NHS this year.You were talking about an increase of 2%
0:24:12 > 0:24:18per year, more than this Government is promising which is 1.2% this
0:24:18 > 0:24:24year, but historically health spending usually goes up by about 4%
0:24:24 > 0:24:29per year and you were promising half of that.Yes, over 62 years it went
0:24:29 > 0:24:33up by 4% but we would be increasing expenditure quite substantially in
0:24:33 > 0:24:39the NHS in the early years of the Parliament.But to an average of 2%
0:24:39 > 0:24:43a year over the Government?Yes but we also said we would establish an
0:24:43 > 0:24:47OBR for the health service to advise government on long-term spending
0:24:47 > 0:24:52needs of the NHS so we would have an independent body giving us an
0:24:52 > 0:24:56accurate assessment of the demographic changes, the staffing
0:24:56 > 0:25:01needs of the NHS, which would inform future spending decisions. In the
0:25:01 > 0:25:05early years of the parliament we would be spending substantially more
0:25:05 > 0:25:10on the NHS, not just for hospitals which are overcrowded because we
0:25:10 > 0:25:14have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but also more investment in community
0:25:14 > 0:25:20health service.It's very difficult for you to give statistics about how
0:25:20 > 0:25:24much trouble the NHS is in when you were promising a very modest
0:25:24 > 0:25:29increase in spending of 2%. Under the last Labour government, health
0:25:29 > 0:25:34spending rose by 6% per year, under Margaret Thatcher's government it
0:25:34 > 0:25:41went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto pledge was to give the NHS on
0:25:41 > 0:25:44average less money than Margaret Thatcher did.But we would be
0:25:44 > 0:25:51allocating £5 billion for the NHS. You say it is a modest increase, if
0:25:51 > 0:25:55I could say it is substantially more than this Government is putting into
0:25:55 > 0:26:00the NHS and when you have Simon Stevens saying the NHS needs four
0:26:00 > 0:26:04billion this year, we were promising more than that so you say it is
0:26:04 > 0:26:07modest but I suggest it is a significant level of investment
0:26:07 > 0:26:13which would allow us to get waiting lists down. They could reach 5
0:26:13 > 0:26:17million under the Government. It would allow us to deal with
0:26:17 > 0:26:25overcrowded hospitals and allow us to invest in
0:26:26 > 0:26:29to invest in community health services, stop the cuts to child and
0:26:29 > 0:26:30adolescent mental health services, allow us to recruit so we have the
0:26:30 > 0:26:42nurses we need.That is what you can buy for £5 billion you say, is
0:26:42 > 0:26:47scrapping tuition fees are better use of the money?I'm always going
0:26:47 > 0:26:55to argue for more money for the NHS, as someone who aspires to be the
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Health Secretary.And therefore argue against scrapping tuition
0:26:59 > 0:27:08fees?The tuition fee pledge was a promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and
0:27:08 > 0:27:11John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn run for the leadership of the Labour
0:27:11 > 0:27:16Party and proved to be very popular electorally as a pledge so I can see
0:27:16 > 0:27:20why the Labour Party will be sticking with that, but I'm always
0:27:20 > 0:27:31going to be making the case for more money for the NHS. We have seen £6
0:27:31 > 0:27:37billion of cuts and
0:27:37 > 0:27:41billion of cuts and other...It is not clear the amount of money
0:27:41 > 0:27:45offered by Labour will be sufficient to offer their aspirations in social
0:27:45 > 0:27:53care.I would say it would be. Across the Parliament we would put
0:27:53 > 0:27:57an extra £8 billion but we know we have to look at better ways of
0:27:57 > 0:28:05integrating health and social care. The NHS was created in 1948, social
0:28:05 > 0:28:08care was created as a sister service but they have never worked together
0:28:08 > 0:28:14as closely as they should. We are older, with various different
0:28:14 > 0:28:19conditions, we know the social care system and the NHS will have to work
0:28:19 > 0:28:22more closely together so we would look at integrating properly health
0:28:22 > 0:28:27and social care but that is a medium to long-term plan, not something a
0:28:27 > 0:28:33politician can deliver overnight.It was made clear at the rally you work
0:28:33 > 0:28:36at yesterday Labour politicians pledging no more outsourcing in the
0:28:36 > 0:28:41NHS, what does that actually mean? No more private companies of any
0:28:41 > 0:28:46kind involved in healthcare at all? What we would want to bring an end
0:28:46 > 0:28:53to is the way in which, because of the health and social care act from
0:28:53 > 0:28:56for years ago, it means community health contracts have to always be
0:28:56 > 0:29:03put out to tender. Millions is wasted, some even say billions
0:29:03 > 0:29:07wasted, on the constant tendering of contracts. We have just seen a
0:29:07 > 0:29:11children's health contracts go to virgin care in Lancashire. When
0:29:11 > 0:29:15virgin care didn't win a contract in Surrey, they forced the NHS to
0:29:15 > 0:29:21settle with them out of court. Macmillan Cancer Support have one in
0:29:21 > 0:29:25Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St John's ambulance, they all have
0:29:25 > 0:29:29contracts provided for under the very act you say you want to repeal.
0:29:29 > 0:29:40You don't want these people involved in health care delivery?Macmillan
0:29:40 > 0:29:45nurses have had a role since the 1970s. They complement what the NHS
0:29:45 > 0:29:49offers so we are not talking about ending the voluntary sector role.
0:29:49 > 0:29:55This isn't just voluntary services. No, but we are talking about private
0:29:55 > 0:29:59firms where a full contract for service delivery, say a children's
0:29:59 > 0:30:05health service, is handed over to virgin, that means the staff are
0:30:05 > 0:30:09handed over, the only way virgin or whatever that private sector company
0:30:09 > 0:30:14is can make a profit is by cutting down on terms and conditions. It
0:30:14 > 0:30:18means the staff are often down branded, knocked down a level in
0:30:18 > 0:30:23terms of their pay, and we don't believe that delivers the quality of
0:30:23 > 0:30:33care children deserve and that's what we want to end.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41You talk about the long waiting lists. Under the last Labour
0:30:41 > 0:30:45government that they came in at a time in the NHS was and a lot of
0:30:45 > 0:30:48pressure and delivery used private sector companies to work through the
0:30:48 > 0:30:52backlog of people who were waiting for operations in order to get the
0:30:52 > 0:30:56waiting lists down quickly. Do you not think that the NHS as an estate
0:30:56 > 0:31:07now where you may be forced to consider that?The NHS has always
0:31:07 > 0:31:10got extra capacity from private service providers in that
0:31:10 > 0:31:14circumstance. The Labour government was not handing over the delivery
0:31:14 > 0:31:19lock, stock and barrel for the whole sort of health contract.That's the
0:31:19 > 0:31:24difference. But you might still buy in services. When you say
0:31:24 > 0:31:32outsourcing is finished, it doesn't mean the whole involvement of
0:31:32 > 0:31:36private companies is finished?The NHS will not build its own
0:31:36 > 0:31:40ambulances. We will still buy from the private sector. Without capacity
0:31:40 > 0:31:46in the NHS we will buy in from the private sector. If you want to get
0:31:46 > 0:31:49the rescheduled by Easter, if you wanted to do that, the anyway the
0:31:49 > 0:31:55NHS could do that is by buying in from the private sector. There is a
0:31:55 > 0:31:58difference between spot buying in the private sector and handing out a
0:31:58 > 0:32:03complete contract. Take a really in four example with the cleaning
0:32:03 > 0:32:07contract.I will have to leave you on and ask you about Haringey
0:32:07 > 0:32:13Council before we go. Clare Cockburn was on the Andrew Marr show earlier
0:32:13 > 0:32:21and she has been giving interviews, talking about bullying within the
0:32:21 > 0:32:26Labour Party and at council meetings. -- Kober thought she said
0:32:26 > 0:32:31she could not complain to the NEC because she thought that was in
0:32:31 > 0:32:37itself a problem. That is deeply worrying, isn't it?I don't know all
0:32:37 > 0:32:42the ins and outs I have seen what is in the newspapers but I used to be a
0:32:42 > 0:32:50member of the National Executive committee until 18 months ago. Clare
0:32:50 > 0:32:53Kober, if there were specific complaints, they do need to go to
0:32:53 > 0:32:57the NEC and the NEC would look at that. Various committees would look
0:32:57 > 0:33:03at that very seriously.You reached a point when a senior member of the
0:33:03 > 0:33:06party does not trust the NEC to sort this out because she thinks they are
0:33:06 > 0:33:12part of the problem and not the answer.I would say that the NEC, in
0:33:12 > 0:33:18my experience, would look at these things. The NEC got involved in
0:33:18 > 0:33:23mediation talks. I am not a member of it anymore but what I understand
0:33:23 > 0:33:28is a substantial number of Labour councillors in Haringey asked the
0:33:28 > 0:33:32NEC to intervene I don't know the ins and outs but it is clear there
0:33:32 > 0:33:36are two sides of the story. On specific allegations where there was
0:33:36 > 0:33:41a meeting in Haringey where there was anti-Semitic chanting in things
0:33:41 > 0:33:44like that, if those people are Labour Party members were they need
0:33:44 > 0:33:49to be reported. If people are being anti-Semitic they will be thrown out
0:33:49 > 0:33:52of the Labour Party, simple as that. Thank you.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Allegations of sexual harassment and bullying rocked Westminster
0:33:54 > 0:33:55when they emerged last autumn.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58By the end of the year, two Cabinet ministers had resigned
0:33:58 > 0:34:00and several MPs from different parties had been suspended
0:34:00 > 0:34:03pending investigations.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05The Government promised action, and announced a cross-party working
0:34:05 > 0:34:07group to decide what it should be.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09But, so far, it hasn't recommended anything.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11Ellie Price has been finding out what's going on.
0:34:11 > 0:34:16And, just a warning, her report includes some flash photography.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19It wasn't parliament's finest hour.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22Revelations of shady goings-on, of sexual harassment in the Palace's
0:34:22 > 0:34:26bars and back rooms, of bullying in its offices.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Of course, the vast majority of MPs and their staff were not implicated.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33But it was enough that all the party leaders agreed
0:34:33 > 0:34:36something needed to be done.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39We should not rest until everyone working in Parliament can feel safe,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43valued and respected.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46We have a chance now to get this right, for everyone
0:34:46 > 0:34:47on the parliamentary estate.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Political leaders agreed to set up a cross-party
0:34:49 > 0:34:51working group in November.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54MPs, peers, and other interested groups have been working
0:34:54 > 0:34:57on the proposals ever since.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00The Leader of the House had said she wanted the recommendations to be
0:35:00 > 0:35:02voted on by Parliament and implemented by
0:35:02 > 0:35:05the end of January.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08But here we are at the beginning of February and still the report
0:35:08 > 0:35:10hasn't been published.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Sources close to the working group tell me it was held up
0:35:13 > 0:35:16before Christmas and then its scope was widened.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19It was then due to be released on Thursday but I'm told it
0:35:19 > 0:35:24still needs final sign off from the party leaders.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27I've been told there is now broad consensus among members on the group
0:35:27 > 0:35:29that its recommendations are suitably robust.
0:35:29 > 0:35:33Sources close to the talks told me there's recommendations are likely
0:35:33 > 0:35:35to include a new independent grievance procedure for staff,
0:35:35 > 0:35:39consent lessons for MPs, starting after the next general
0:35:39 > 0:35:43election, a new code of conduct, and the one most likely
0:35:43 > 0:35:47to grab the headlines, tougher sanctions, including making
0:35:47 > 0:35:50easier the process to recall - and potentially fire
0:35:50 > 0:35:53- an MP.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56The current situation is one where I would face harsher sanctions
0:35:56 > 0:35:59and penalties for being rude about another MP on the floor
0:35:59 > 0:36:01of the House of Commons than I would if I were bullying
0:36:01 > 0:36:04or harassing a member of staff.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07I don't think that is a reasonable, or tenable, situation,
0:36:07 > 0:36:11and I think we need to give staff, and the general public we work for,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13the confidence that Parliament is not just abiding by the law
0:36:13 > 0:36:18on employment rights and workplace rights
0:36:19 > 0:36:21but actually setting a standard.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24A representative from Unite is also on the working party.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26The union says its members, who work in Parliament,
0:36:26 > 0:36:30have lost faith in the system.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32Our members don't have confidence at the moment that there's
0:36:32 > 0:36:35going to be enough change in Parliament to make
0:36:35 > 0:36:38a difference to the bullying and harassment culture.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41There needs to be positive engagement with staff and encourage
0:36:41 > 0:36:45them, and give them confidence that, if they make a complaint over
0:36:45 > 0:36:51bullying and harassment, that there will be proper investigation.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53And the working group has its work cut out.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56As HR experts consulted during the process point out,
0:36:56 > 0:37:00reforming the existing employment rules in Parliament
0:37:00 > 0:37:03is not straightforward.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06One of the big challenges, you've got 650 MPs, who are all
0:37:06 > 0:37:10running their own offices and staff.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14So, effectively, you've got 650 small firms in effect.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18And the extent to which they have had previous experience in managing
0:37:18 > 0:37:21people, and running businesses, is probably limited
0:37:21 > 0:37:23in many instances.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26So, that's part of the problem.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29But any overhaul of the system is unnecessary, says this MP
0:37:29 > 0:37:33who has been in Parliament for nearly 35 years.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35I think, by and large, the rules work as they are.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38And, if courtesy and common sense are applied, there is no need
0:37:38 > 0:37:42for any change at all.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44Yeah, there are bad apples in the barrel.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47But those bad apples tend to get weeded out pretty fast.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51And I think we could create, if we're not careful,
0:37:51 > 0:37:56a whistle-blowers charter, a witch hunters charter.
0:37:57 > 0:38:03Very difficult for a male of any age to defend against an allegation.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07I'm told the report will be published next week,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10possibly on Tuesday, and MPs will then debate
0:38:10 > 0:38:13it in the Commons.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16But it may not satisfy everyone that it's exactly what's required to put
0:38:16 > 0:38:21this House in order.
0:38:21 > 0:38:22this House in order.
0:38:24 > 0:38:25It's coming up to 11:40am.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking about the violent
0:38:30 > 0:38:32scenes after protestors interrupted a speech by the Conservative
0:38:32 > 0:38:34MP Jacob Rees Mogg, and plenty more.
0:38:34 > 0:38:34First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46In a few minutes, one of our leading political commentators tells me why
0:38:46 > 0:38:49he thinks Carwyn Jones' authority is in tatters, and a group of AMs
0:38:49 > 0:38:51criticises the Welsh Government, saying it hasn't prepared
0:38:51 > 0:38:52for a no-deal Brexit scenario.
0:38:52 > 0:39:02The chair of that committee will be here live.
0:39:03 > 0:39:05But first, Opposition parties in the Assembly are entering
0:39:05 > 0:39:07a new phase of co-operation against the Welsh Government,
0:39:07 > 0:39:09according to one senior Plaid Cymru AM.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11Adam Price says the parties will establish a common front
0:39:11 > 0:39:13on a range of issues in the near future.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15But what might it mean in practice?
0:39:15 > 0:39:20Carl Roberts reports.
0:39:20 > 0:39:25Carl Roberts reports.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33The opposition parties in the Senedd all agree on one thing, they want to
0:39:33 > 0:39:38see the back of a Labour government in Wales. In 19 years of devolution,
0:39:38 > 0:39:42they have failed to do it at the ballot box and collectively have not
0:39:42 > 0:39:53had much success in Cardiff Bay EDF. -- either.Teams of people will come
0:39:53 > 0:39:56together to attempt to solve puzzles and work and team building
0:39:56 > 0:40:03activities.So if a load of politicians who didn't necessarily
0:40:03 > 0:40:07get on but had a common aim, would it be worth their while coming here
0:40:07 > 0:40:11and learning how to work together? It would definitely make them work
0:40:11 > 0:40:15together, communicate better.I think it would. I am going to have a
0:40:15 > 0:40:20look. It looks like the opposition parties
0:40:20 > 0:40:24might benefit from coming and spending an afternoon here, being
0:40:24 > 0:40:28locked in a room and forced to work together to overcome a common
0:40:28 > 0:40:32problem. In their case, the Welsh Labour government. Many members on
0:40:32 > 0:40:36opposition benches want to capitalise on what they see as a
0:40:36 > 0:40:40vulnerable government. Labour have 29 seats in the assembly but Carwyn
0:40:40 > 0:40:47Jones has given government jobs to Kirsty Williams of the Liberal
0:40:47 > 0:40:51Democrats and Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Independent. Those appointments give
0:40:51 > 0:40:54the First Minister a working majority of 31. Will the opposition
0:40:54 > 0:40:59be able to work together to make inroads?We did right at the
0:40:59 > 0:41:02beginning of this assembly stop the Welsh Government being reappointed.
0:41:02 > 0:41:08I hope therefore that this would begin a process whereby collectively
0:41:08 > 0:41:10the opposition parties, who are in a majority in the assembly, let's
0:41:10 > 0:41:20remember that, good exercise and overwhelming influence on the Welsh
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Labour government. Having bottled out at the last minute, Carwyn Jones
0:41:23 > 0:41:29was let off the hook by Plaid Cymru. A Labour Plaid Cymru agreement, the
0:41:29 > 0:41:37so-called compact, was torn up last October and one influential Assembly
0:41:37 > 0:41:40Member...I think we're now entering a new phase. Plaid has ended the
0:41:40 > 0:41:49compact. Where there is common ground, where there is legitimate
0:41:49 > 0:41:54reason to challenge the Welsh Government, not opposition for
0:41:54 > 0:41:58opposition say, where we would be failing to do our job if we weren't
0:41:58 > 0:42:03to do it, then I think we will see increasingly a common front on a
0:42:03 > 0:42:08whole range of issues. Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood has
0:42:08 > 0:42:12said she would not enter into any future coalition with the
0:42:12 > 0:42:16Conservatives. But their leader wants to break that deadlock and
0:42:16 > 0:42:20offer an alternative to Labour.What I know from my point of view is that
0:42:20 > 0:42:25I don't have any ideological reasons why I cannot work with other parties
0:42:25 > 0:42:29in this institution because to me the ideological reason why Wales
0:42:29 > 0:42:32sadly has not delivered in the first 20 years of devolution is the Labour
0:42:32 > 0:42:40Party.Plaid Cymru just cannot vote with the Welsh Conservatives without
0:42:40 > 0:42:44facing challenge on their own party members. Ukip again, a disorganised
0:42:44 > 0:42:49camp. The difficulty for the opposition parties is they are not
0:42:49 > 0:42:56able to work together effectively. Plaid Cymru...
0:42:56 > 0:43:00The question of the M4 relief road. Plaid Cymru has a different policy
0:43:00 > 0:43:04to that of the Conservative Party in terms of our attitude to the
0:43:04 > 0:43:09proposed route. Where I think possibly we agree is it is
0:43:09 > 0:43:14Parliament that should decide. After all it is parliament parties except
0:43:14 > 0:43:18-- elected, not the executive. When we come to the end of this arduously
0:43:18 > 0:43:23long process with a public enquiry, that should come back to the
0:43:23 > 0:43:28assembly for a vote on a resolution by the assembly and it may well be
0:43:28 > 0:43:32the luxury we can even find common cause with one or two rebel members
0:43:32 > 0:43:37of the government backbenches as well.Yes, I am prepared to
0:43:37 > 0:43:42cooperate with other parties. Even to vote through things in which
0:43:42 > 0:43:44fundamentally I don't believe but which are better than the other
0:43:44 > 0:43:51alternatives.And who knows, a bond of cooperation forged now could lead
0:43:51 > 0:43:56to closer working post the next election.What is important is to
0:43:56 > 0:43:59show that you don't necessarily have to think of government in the
0:43:59 > 0:44:00traditional model of having obviously government ministers
0:44:00 > 0:44:05coming from all parts of that government and actually having a
0:44:05 > 0:44:09programme for government that seeks to improve people's lives chance in
0:44:09 > 0:44:14Wales, that we can all sign up to. The noises from our real politicians
0:44:14 > 0:44:18suggest some real cooperation may be possible. Will it be enough for them
0:44:18 > 0:44:23to break out as a cohesive force or will they be locked into position
0:44:23 > 0:44:24for years to come?
0:44:24 > 0:44:28On the face of it, 2017 was a pretty decent year for Carwyn Jones.
0:44:28 > 0:44:29The First Minister fronted a successful general
0:44:29 > 0:44:32election campaign in Wales, and the local elections weren't
0:44:32 > 0:44:33as bad as some were predicting.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35The only question about his leadership was -
0:44:35 > 0:44:37when would he decide he wanted to stand down?
0:44:37 > 0:44:39But to what extent have events since the death
0:44:39 > 0:44:41of Carl Sargeant changed all that?
0:44:41 > 0:44:43I've been talking to Professor Richard Wyn Jones
0:44:43 > 0:44:45from the Wales Governance Centre, but I began by asking him
0:44:45 > 0:44:47where Welsh ministers were over their Brexit
0:44:47 > 0:44:52discussions with Whitehall?
0:44:52 > 0:44:57discussions with Whitehall?
0:44:57 > 0:45:03We have had a very strange few weeks, in particular with regard to
0:45:03 > 0:45:09weekly draw Bill. -- withdrawal bill. We all know it is
0:45:09 > 0:45:14controversial. The UK Government has accepted that the most controversial
0:45:14 > 0:45:18elements as regards devolution need to be amended. They promised to
0:45:18 > 0:45:21bring forward amendments was still in the Commons. For whatever reason,
0:45:21 > 0:45:26they didn't do that. Of course we are now in the Lords. The government
0:45:26 > 0:45:30are now running out of time to introduce these amendments, let
0:45:30 > 0:45:35alone have amendments which are acceptable to Scotland and Wales.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Scotland and Wales are clearly very frustrated about this. They have
0:45:39 > 0:45:43been trying not very successfully to negotiate with Whitehall for months.
0:45:43 > 0:45:49It is a sign of their kind of anxiety they have now introduced
0:45:49 > 0:45:57continuity bills which would be the National Assembly wave -- for Wales
0:45:57 > 0:46:00and the Scottish Parliament taking control of this process of trying to
0:46:00 > 0:46:03take control of this process. They have now signalled they will
0:46:03 > 0:46:08introduce these. We have had some quite significant speeches in the
0:46:08 > 0:46:10Lords last week. It is far from clear that the government has a
0:46:10 > 0:46:15majority in the Lords for clause 11 in particular. We have had some
0:46:15 > 0:46:19really important speeches by Scottish Unionists saying actually
0:46:19 > 0:46:25this undermines the devolution settlement. I mean, I am genuinely
0:46:25 > 0:46:31bemused as to why the UK Government hasn't introduced amendments. This
0:46:31 > 0:46:35is very, very high stakes. If they don't have the votes in the Lords
0:46:35 > 0:46:40then the powers are going to fall to the devolved level. Yes, this is a
0:46:40 > 0:46:46really crucial period.And what is your sense about how the Welsh
0:46:46 > 0:46:49Government has conducted itself over these negotiations, in terms of
0:46:49 > 0:46:55having the White Paper a year ago now outlining its plans, having a
0:46:55 > 0:46:58continuity bill now, wanting to set out what they want to see in the
0:46:58 > 0:47:02future? Have they played this as you would have expected them to do so?I
0:47:02 > 0:47:06think we have seen quite an interesting change in regards to the
0:47:06 > 0:47:08Welsh Government position in the period since the Brexit referendum.
0:47:08 > 0:47:16Initially there was some disarray. Clearly the Brexit vote went in a
0:47:16 > 0:47:22different way from the one that the Welsh Government hoped for. They in
0:47:22 > 0:47:26particular, the fact that Wales voted in favour Brexit meant that
0:47:26 > 0:47:29they were in a weak bargaining position as compared to for example
0:47:29 > 0:47:37the Scottish Government. Scotland voted overwhelmingly remain. That
0:47:37 > 0:47:41gives them more of a more moral authority on all this. The Welsh
0:47:41 > 0:47:44Government have gradually firmed up their position and we have this
0:47:44 > 0:47:48interesting cooperation between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru
0:47:48 > 0:47:53initially. And now we have got this very interesting position of a very
0:47:53 > 0:47:58strong alliance between the Scottish and Welsh governments. And we see
0:47:58 > 0:48:01the two relevant ministers, Mark Drakeford or from Wales and Mike
0:48:01 > 0:48:07Russell from Scotland, almost a kind of double act now. They were in the
0:48:07 > 0:48:11House of Lords last Monday. They were talking to peers. I have seen
0:48:11 > 0:48:16them in action in Brussels. They are in Ireland. The Welsh Government and
0:48:16 > 0:48:21the Scottish Government have been singing from the same hymn sheet.
0:48:21 > 0:48:27They have basically been making the same ask of the UK Government.You
0:48:27 > 0:48:30were saying earlier that the clock is ticking from the UK Government
0:48:30 > 0:48:35point of view. I guess the clock is ticking in the same way for Labour,
0:48:35 > 0:48:39they cannot have this ambiguity for long because eventually they will
0:48:39 > 0:48:43have to say, OK, yes or no to a second referendum and Jeremy Corbyn
0:48:43 > 0:48:49has said no second referendum last week. But Derek Vaughan has said on
0:48:49 > 0:48:52our programme, he will change his mind. Time is running out for them
0:48:52 > 0:48:58as well.Labour are also having their cake and eating it. We hear a
0:48:58 > 0:49:02lot about that at the moment. And clearly the British Labour Party has
0:49:02 > 0:49:07been doing that. The Welsh Government to some extent, there has
0:49:07 > 0:49:10been an ambiguity about what precisely it wants, even if the
0:49:10 > 0:49:14logic of its British and it's pretty clear. Yes, at some stage, Labour
0:49:14 > 0:49:20will have to come off the fence and we may see a big internal battle
0:49:20 > 0:49:24within the Labour Party but in a sense, this is down to the UK
0:49:24 > 0:49:31Government. Whatever difficulties Labour has, they are not as
0:49:31 > 0:49:34significant geopolitically as the UK Government 's lack of clarity.You
0:49:34 > 0:49:40mentioned internal Labour tassels. And I guess that brings us to the
0:49:40 > 0:49:43second possibly big story we can expect to see over the next 12
0:49:43 > 0:49:48months and that is Carwyn Jones' leadership. You wrote that you
0:49:48 > 0:49:52thought his grasp over his position is ebbing away. Why do you think
0:49:52 > 0:49:57that might happen?Political authority is kind of something often
0:49:57 > 0:50:04intangible. And it is easier to see when it is not there... And it is
0:50:04 > 0:50:09very clear that Carwyn Jones' political authority has ebbed away
0:50:09 > 0:50:13very substantially since Carl Sargeant 's suicide. My Twitter feed
0:50:13 > 0:50:18is full of Labour members, activists, fellow travellers,
0:50:18 > 0:50:25attacking the First Minister in very, very personal... Actually
0:50:25 > 0:50:30quite hurtful, I would have thought, terms. Clearly without fearing any
0:50:30 > 0:50:34repercussions. We have very, very... Actually we have nobody going out
0:50:34 > 0:50:39there to speak in favour of him. I think that is one of the most
0:50:39 > 0:50:43striking things over the last few weeks. There are no outriders.
0:50:43 > 0:50:45Carwyn Jones has nobody standing up in front of the camera, defending
0:50:45 > 0:50:52him. Even Theresa May manages to find people who will stand in front
0:50:52 > 0:50:55of a camera and defend her. We haven't seen that. Or rather what we
0:50:55 > 0:51:01are seeing and hearing is all the talk within the Welsh Labour Party
0:51:01 > 0:51:05now is about who is going to be the successor. How is the successor
0:51:05 > 0:51:11going to be elected. It is almost as if Carwyn Jones is old news in a
0:51:11 > 0:51:16sense. There is an issue of when and how he departs. But the party does
0:51:16 > 0:51:20seem to have moved actually to discussing the successor.You
0:51:20 > 0:51:25mentioned in your article Mark Drakeford as the main challenger at
0:51:25 > 0:51:31the moment. Who else should we be looking out for?Again, I have no
0:51:31 > 0:51:37knowledge as to who will definitely throw their hat into the ring. One
0:51:37 > 0:51:42is party to all kinds of conversations. I'm sure you are. But
0:51:42 > 0:51:49there is lots of speculation as to who fancies it. Who can actually get
0:51:49 > 0:51:54nominated to be in a position to stand. So there is lots and lots of
0:51:54 > 0:52:00names being discussed at the moment. I speculate in the article that if
0:52:00 > 0:52:05he stands, and I don't know if he will, Mark Drakeford has an
0:52:05 > 0:52:09outstanding chance of winning but other names of course have been
0:52:09 > 0:52:17mentioned for years. People like Vaughan Gething... I think it is
0:52:17 > 0:52:22pretty clear that Alun Davies would quite like to be leader of the Welsh
0:52:22 > 0:52:29Labour Party one day if he can. Eluned Morgan.
0:52:29 > 0:52:37There are lots of names being spoken about. Who ends up actually throwing
0:52:37 > 0:52:42their hat into the ring, who ends up getting nominated, I don't know. But
0:52:42 > 0:52:47what I think is very striking is the discussion has now moved on to that.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49This week marks the official centenary since some women
0:52:49 > 0:52:51were given the vote.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53Though it's being celebrated as a step forward, it didn't give
0:52:53 > 0:52:54women equality with men.
0:52:54 > 0:52:57So how much of a role did Welsh women play in that movement?
0:52:57 > 0:53:02Rhodri Lewis has been finding out.
0:53:02 > 0:53:07Rhodri Lewis has been finding out.
0:53:09 > 0:53:13The songs may be uplifting but the campaign for women's suffrage took
0:53:13 > 0:53:18years and was often violent. Several women took extreme action to get the
0:53:18 > 0:53:21vote, including Emily Davidson, who was killed when she walked out in
0:53:21 > 0:53:27front of the Kings horse at the Derby in 1913. In Wales, there were
0:53:27 > 0:53:32in abrupt movements, both peaceful and militant. Margaret Haig Thomas
0:53:32 > 0:53:36is perhaps the most famous figure of the Welsh campaign. She is best
0:53:36 > 0:53:39remembered again because of a defiant act, when she blew up a post
0:53:39 > 0:53:46box in Newport.She is an extremely important name in all of this. And
0:53:46 > 0:53:50the other important thing about her of course is that she continued to
0:53:50 > 0:53:55campaign after the 1918 representation of the People's act.
0:53:55 > 0:54:04She continued to be a very committed feminist for the rest of her life.
0:54:04 > 0:54:09And fluid is Wales' longest serving current MP. As a long-term
0:54:09 > 0:54:15campaigner for women's rights, she has seen many changes.I think it is
0:54:15 > 0:54:20easier now for women because there are all women short lists. And I
0:54:20 > 0:54:25think that was necessary and it is still necessary. It is opposed by
0:54:25 > 0:54:28quite a lot of number of people still but it was the only way we
0:54:28 > 0:54:32could have got more women into the House of Commons. And I know because
0:54:32 > 0:54:39I was there on my own basically. And I think it was about 16 years before
0:54:39 > 0:54:49another woman from Wales came in.So it has been a long fight. I think
0:54:49 > 0:54:53that the farmers feel a great sense of insecurity. They don't know from
0:54:53 > 0:54:57martyr to mark what the prices are going to be.It was another ten
0:54:57 > 0:55:02years before the voting age was equalised at 21. The following year,
0:55:02 > 0:55:05Lady Megan Lloyd George became the first woman to be elected as a Welsh
0:55:05 > 0:55:14MP.
0:55:14 > 0:55:16Ministers in the Welsh Government haven't prepared for a no-deal
0:55:16 > 0:55:18Brexit scenario, according to an Assembly report.
0:55:18 > 0:55:20The External Affairs Committee says it was surprised no plans
0:55:20 > 0:55:21were being put in place.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23The Committee Chair is the Labour AM David Rees
0:55:23 > 0:55:28and he's here with me now.
0:55:28 > 0:55:32and he's here with me now.
0:55:32 > 0:55:37Thank you very much for coming in this morning. Good morning. In this
0:55:37 > 0:55:40report, you are fairly critical in terms of the way you see the Welsh
0:55:40 > 0:55:44Government having not prepared for this no deal scenario. Why is that
0:55:44 > 0:55:49such a big problem, do you think? What is clear is that the no deal
0:55:49 > 0:55:52scenario is more and more prominent in the discussions and it is
0:55:52 > 0:55:55important that we ensure that the Welsh Government is looking at this
0:55:55 > 0:56:01as a solution, possible solution. We were concerned that the answers we
0:56:01 > 0:56:05had indicated that it was something they did not want, which we agreed
0:56:05 > 0:56:09with, and something they did not anticipate being good for Wales,
0:56:09 > 0:56:12which we agreed with, but it also seemed to be some thing they did not
0:56:12 > 0:56:19appear to be preparing for.Mark Drakeford said no amount of
0:56:19 > 0:56:22preparation will avoid the harm that will be done to Wales and its
0:56:22 > 0:56:24economy by leaving the European Union without a deal. That is his
0:56:24 > 0:56:31view.We totally agree with that. That is his justification for not
0:56:31 > 0:56:34preparing for a no deal but do you think that is a fair point or does
0:56:34 > 0:56:37that make it even more important that they should be preparing for
0:56:37 > 0:56:41that?It is a fair point but they should be preparing for that. The
0:56:41 > 0:56:45discussions that were going on at the time and even more recently when
0:56:45 > 0:56:51we see Jacob Rees Mogg and other government ministers highlighting
0:56:51 > 0:56:55let's leave without a deal, we must be ready for a no deal scenario. The
0:56:55 > 0:57:01publication on Friday the trade policy paper started talking about
0:57:01 > 0:57:05no deal scenario is.People giving evidence to the committee when you
0:57:05 > 0:57:09were preparing for this report were saying they don't get a sense,
0:57:09 > 0:57:13public sector bodies, third sector, charities and so on, felt they were
0:57:13 > 0:57:16being involved and informed by the Welsh Government. How much of a
0:57:16 > 0:57:19problem do you think that could be for them, for people watching at
0:57:19 > 0:57:24home, what will be the impact of this?For those organisations, they
0:57:24 > 0:57:26work on the ground with people in our communities and it is important
0:57:26 > 0:57:31they get a steer as to where we are going with these solutions and what
0:57:31 > 0:57:34support the worst gum and will be a will to give to give them following
0:57:34 > 0:57:39Brexit. It will have to work its way down. At the moment we are happy the
0:57:39 > 0:57:43Welsh Government is talking to top-level bodies but they need to
0:57:43 > 0:57:45ensure that cascades down to all the organisations that work on the
0:57:45 > 0:57:50ground with the communities so the steer is there so they know it's
0:57:50 > 0:57:52everywhere they will go because they are the ones that will be affected
0:57:52 > 0:57:56by the loss of income.Do you get the impression that he was gum and
0:57:56 > 0:58:01is involved in these high-level talks with UK Government, Scottish
0:58:01 > 0:58:08Government, but maybe not doing that work of discussing with their own
0:58:08 > 0:58:11organisations and with the Welsh -based organisations as well --
0:58:11 > 0:58:19Welsh Government?They are doing both. But they need to ensure that
0:58:19 > 0:58:22it permeates down to the organisations themselves and then
0:58:22 > 0:58:26down through the supply chains.Is it also your view that the Welsh
0:58:26 > 0:58:34Government needs to be preparing far more readily for this no deal
0:58:34 > 0:58:36scenario and what should they then be doing with that information?I am
0:58:36 > 0:58:42pleased to say that the policy reporters say that concerns are
0:58:42 > 0:58:46being expressed and now they have to look at the sectors in the paper and
0:58:46 > 0:58:50look at the individual businesses and looking at how they can help
0:58:50 > 0:58:54those businesses and supply chains for those businesses and put plans
0:58:54 > 0:58:58in place so if a no deal does happen, they are ready to work with
0:58:58 > 0:59:01Welsh businesses and organisations to work their way through that.From
0:59:01 > 0:59:06a Welsh Government point of view, they might say, there are so many
0:59:06 > 0:59:11possible different outcomes from Brexit, the UK garment is not saying
0:59:11 > 0:59:14what its end point will be, so how can the Welsh Government be
0:59:14 > 0:59:20preparing for a near infinite number of scenarios -- UK Government?It is
0:59:20 > 0:59:23true to say that the UK Government 's position on this has been all
0:59:23 > 0:59:25over the place and therefore the Welsh Government has not been able
0:59:25 > 0:59:29to clearly have a line but a no deal scenario is one that is a clear
0:59:29 > 0:59:36possibility. They may want to take specific points on the options but
0:59:36 > 0:59:40it has to be one of the ones to be considered. They may look at where
0:59:40 > 0:59:43else they can go as a consequence of the discussions that have gone on.
0:59:43 > 0:59:47Otherwise are you happy with the way the Welsh Government is conducting
0:59:47 > 0:59:52itself? We have seen this transition fund to help companies. You are
0:59:52 > 0:59:59happy with how the Welsh Government overall is approaching Brexit?I
0:59:59 > 1:00:02think the Welsh Government has been leading on many things. Let's be
1:00:02 > 1:00:07fair, it was the first one to talk about a transition period. That was
1:00:07 > 1:00:1112 months ago. They have put other position papers out. They are moving
1:00:11 > 1:00:15forward on position papers but we need to ensure they are going onto
1:00:15 > 1:00:18the ground and working with the organisations at ground level to
1:00:18 > 1:00:21prepare for situations and we also have to address the situation as to
1:00:21 > 1:00:25what happens within the UK in the future. That is something which
1:00:25 > 1:00:30dominates politics at the moment. We cannot lose sight of preparing for
1:00:30 > 1:00:34exit. We will be leaving the European Union in 12 months' time
1:00:34 > 1:00:38and we need to make sure we are ready for it.You will have seen
1:00:38 > 1:00:43what was said in our interview about Carwyn Jones, the First Minister 's
1:00:43 > 1:00:47political authority ebbing away. That is what he was saying.What are
1:00:47 > 1:00:52your thoughts on that? I don't recognise those comments. I see the
1:00:52 > 1:00:58Welsh Lib -- Welsh Labour government in full control with the support of
1:00:58 > 1:01:05the Labour membership, the group in the assembly.He said nobody is
1:01:05 > 1:01:10going out there to defend Carwyn Jones. Is that true?I cannot
1:01:10 > 1:01:15comment on that. I have not been asked to comment except for today. I
1:01:15 > 1:01:19fully support Carwyn Jones as First Minister and will continue to do so.
1:01:19 > 1:01:23In your view, he should be allowed to decide his own departure time and
1:01:23 > 1:01:28so on?I think what we should be doing is let things happen, there is
1:01:28 > 1:01:30still an investigation to go through and we have to see that through to
1:01:30 > 1:01:32its conclusions and then we will come to that point.
1:01:32 > 1:01:33That's it from us.
1:01:33 > 1:01:36Wales Live is here on Wednesday at 10:30, but for now
1:01:36 > 1:01:37that's all from me.
1:01:38 > 1:01:40Thank you very much, both.
1:01:50 > 1:01:55Welcome back. Our expert panel is still with us to talk through the
1:01:55 > 1:02:00week's events and what we expected, in the near future. One thing that
1:02:00 > 1:02:05made the news was a scuffle at a university in Bristol where Jacob
1:02:05 > 1:02:09Rees Mogg was interrupted by some protesters. Let's take a quick look
1:02:09 > 1:02:11before we talk about it.
1:02:28 > 1:02:32Jacob Rees Mogg, who always seems to be the centre of any story these
1:02:32 > 1:02:37days but Steve, are those unusual scenes at the University political
1:02:37 > 1:02:40meeting or is that happening around the country are not being caught on
1:02:40 > 1:02:45camera and therefore we do not know about it?It is not that unusual and
1:02:45 > 1:02:53it happens at times when politics is at the forefront. There is nothing
1:02:53 > 1:02:58exceptional about the highly charged atmosphere of politics and students
1:02:58 > 1:03:02have always chosen controversial speakers to go to university and get
1:03:02 > 1:03:07a hard time like that. Jacob Rees Mogg is brilliant at dealing with
1:03:07 > 1:03:11people like that. I have seen him at meetings where people have come in
1:03:11 > 1:03:18and he is fantastic. Very polite and courteous. That is the way of doing
1:03:18 > 1:03:22it. It is an absolute myth that something is happening and there is
1:03:22 > 1:03:27a lot going on in politics at the moment that is disturbing. People
1:03:27 > 1:03:32doing this is not justifiable and has always happened.The idea that
1:03:32 > 1:03:37someone would come to speak at the union and someone did not like their
1:03:37 > 1:03:42views and you would put on a balaclava and shout, fascist some at
1:03:42 > 1:03:48them, and think that was acceptable. That did not happen. I'd tell you
1:03:48 > 1:03:58what also did not happen, he was not condoned by the Shadow Chancellor.
1:03:58 > 1:04:04Not condone the behaviour in Bristol.Apart from the fact that
1:04:04 > 1:04:09John McDonnell, not Jeremy Corbyn, has repeatedly encouraged laughter
1:04:09 > 1:04:13from audiences, talking about a violent insurrection against
1:04:13 > 1:04:17politicians. He said he thinks no Tory MP should be able to speak
1:04:17 > 1:04:23publicly without having this sort of behaviour. Condoned by a mainstream
1:04:23 > 1:04:29party, effectively Deputy Leader.I think you meant condemns all
1:04:29 > 1:04:34violence.He says that he has not specifically condemned this. Correct
1:04:34 > 1:04:41me if I am wrong. He has not specifically condemned this.Brandon
1:04:41 > 1:04:45Lewis was trying to say these are elements of the hard left and trying
1:04:45 > 1:04:53to make this a bit of a party political movement. There is no
1:04:53 > 1:04:56evidence that they are associated with the Labour Party.There is a
1:04:56 > 1:05:02little bit of evidence. A lot of these infiltrators are members of
1:05:02 > 1:05:09Momentum and they consider it to Jeremy Corbyn. It is now an official
1:05:09 > 1:05:12Labour Party campaign group. Brandon Lewis is going to jump all over this
1:05:12 > 1:05:18to try to claim huge political capital in a bit of a naughty way.
1:05:18 > 1:05:22Labour frontbenchers are not encouraging their members. There is
1:05:22 > 1:05:28wider truth going on, which is politics is basically getting more
1:05:28 > 1:05:32ideological. The centre ground is weak and has a very poor voice. The
1:05:32 > 1:05:39louder are on the far left and the far right. That is why the centre
1:05:39 > 1:05:43ground have to speak up.There is only one party conference where your
1:05:43 > 1:05:52political editor needs security guards. There is only one another is
1:05:52 > 1:05:55the Labour Party confidence. When Brandon Lewis was here earlier and
1:05:55 > 1:05:59he said the Labour Party wants to stop intimidation in politics, it is
1:05:59 > 1:06:03arguable the public order act allows for that anyway from that nobody
1:06:03 > 1:06:06wants to see people putting themselves forward in public life
1:06:06 > 1:06:13being intimidated. Is this a way of getting political capital out of the
1:06:13 > 1:06:20situation?It is. I remember Keith Joseph, a real innocent right-winger
1:06:20 > 1:06:23going to universities and getting worse treatment than this. I am not
1:06:23 > 1:06:27justifying this treatment was it has always gone on amongst students.
1:06:27 > 1:06:33There is anger that it manifests itself in these stupid ways but has
1:06:33 > 1:06:42always gone on. He is trying to make political capital. Linked to
1:06:42 > 1:06:46Momentum, it is not clear. People are struggling in the media to make
1:06:46 > 1:06:49sense of it. It is different in different places and its influence
1:06:49 > 1:06:54is different in different places. He is trying to make political capital
1:06:54 > 1:06:59out of things that have always gone on.Jacob Rees Mogg is at the centre
1:06:59 > 1:07:04of every story this week. He is deeply critical of Treasury
1:07:04 > 1:07:07forecasts and having a go at the civil servants. He actually accused
1:07:07 > 1:07:10civil servants in the Treasury of fiddling the figures. It was a
1:07:10 > 1:07:17remarkable thing for a senior politician to say when they
1:07:17 > 1:07:19generally pride ourselves on the impartiality of the civil service in
1:07:19 > 1:07:24this country. A former head of the civil service, Gus O'Donnell, said
1:07:24 > 1:07:27this to say.
1:07:27 > 1:07:30We look at the evidence and we go where it is.
1:07:30 > 1:07:33Of course, if you are selling snake oil, you don't like the idea
1:07:33 > 1:07:34of experts testing your product.
1:07:34 > 1:07:36That's what we've got, this backlash of evidence among
1:07:36 > 1:07:41experts is because they know where the experts will go.
1:07:42 > 1:07:46Julia, that is him criticising Brexiteers who have been criticising
1:07:46 > 1:07:50Treasury figures.What do you make of it? What is that an ageing is we
1:07:50 > 1:07:56are forgetting why the Office for Budget Responsibility was set up. It
1:07:56 > 1:08:00was about the fact the Treasury and civil servants were politicising
1:08:00 > 1:08:04these budget predictions and all of these growth predictions and it
1:08:04 > 1:08:10would take the politics out of it and set up the OBR. Why it was
1:08:10 > 1:08:15accepted it was a good idea, we know the civil service, it is ingrained
1:08:15 > 1:08:19in them to be against change it has been ingrained since time in
1:08:19 > 1:08:24memorial. Everyone working for them says they have to work against the
1:08:24 > 1:08:28sluggish view of the civil service. Brexit is the biggest change their
1:08:28 > 1:08:35will take on. They go with the facts. The same civil servants from
1:08:35 > 1:08:40the Treasury are working on those predictions. It was politicised and
1:08:40 > 1:08:47utterly wrong. After the vote to leave, they predicted there would be
1:08:47 > 1:08:525000 job losses and a recession. The people who worked on and on this
1:08:52 > 1:08:55Treasury report, they are either completely politicised, in which
1:08:55 > 1:09:00case they should go, or they are really bad at their jobs, in which
1:09:00 > 1:09:05case they should go.It is quite astonishing to save the Treasury has
1:09:05 > 1:09:09its own political agenda.That is total bunkum. Civil servants have
1:09:09 > 1:09:14views. They are voters that they properly came into the civil service
1:09:14 > 1:09:19because they are
1:09:21 > 1:09:23because they are interested in politics. Civil servants will and
1:09:23 > 1:09:25have carried out brilliant bits of change was that they were behind the
1:09:25 > 1:09:28creation of the NHS and welfare reforms. Everything like that was
1:09:28 > 1:09:35done by civil servants. To think civil servants do things people
1:09:35 > 1:09:38disapprove of and an ideological perspective that Julia will not like
1:09:38 > 1:09:42is because they are not being given direction by ministers for the if
1:09:42 > 1:09:45ministers run civil servants properly they will get results that
1:09:45 > 1:09:54they want. Civil servants have had a woeful leadership from the
1:09:54 > 1:09:57Government about Brexit because the Government will not get off the
1:09:57 > 1:10:02fence.They may well have to this week. They have two meetings this
1:10:02 > 1:10:07week. Will we have any further clarity by the end of that what the
1:10:07 > 1:10:14Government wants the end state to be?It will be what it appears to be
1:10:14 > 1:10:19now, which is, you have your cake and eat its strategy. Theresa May
1:10:19 > 1:10:24will emerge from these two important meetings and will say that we want
1:10:24 > 1:10:27some kind of continued free trade relationship with Europe but we want
1:10:27 > 1:10:32to be free to make our own trade deals. B want a soft border with
1:10:32 > 1:10:37Ireland and so did be you and now we will go in and negotiate. It seems
1:10:37 > 1:10:46to me that is where the problem begins. -- the EU. She will
1:10:46 > 1:10:49begins. -- the EU. She will not a have your cake and eat it option.
1:10:49 > 1:10:53There are tensions about the relationship with the customs union.
1:10:53 > 1:10:57You mentioned her speech about an associate membership with the
1:10:57 > 1:11:01customs union.There has been a huge row about whether we are leaving the
1:11:01 > 1:11:05customs union but could be being our customs union question that she had
1:11:05 > 1:11:11said I want is to have a customs agreement. Why is this such a fault
1:11:11 > 1:11:20line within the party?It comes down to the absolute epicentre all now up
1:11:20 > 1:11:31of Brexit if there is such a thing. -- nub. A senior Cabinet minister,
1:11:31 > 1:11:42they said, the customs union is the fault line driving right through the
1:11:42 > 1:11:46Cabinet on Brexit. It always was and always will be full to the customs
1:11:46 > 1:11:50union is the one thing that will either stop the Brexiteers getting
1:11:50 > 1:11:54what they want out of Brexit, which is trade deals with the rest of the
1:11:54 > 1:11:59world. They remain as corrupt or soft Brexiteers with what they want,
1:11:59 > 1:12:05which is closer links with the EU. That is why there is such strong
1:12:05 > 1:12:09disagreement. There will be yet another fudge in Cabinet because it
1:12:09 > 1:12:14is too hard to make a binary decision. That will go to the EU.
1:12:14 > 1:12:19The EU will look at it and say, this is cake and eat it verge, decide.
1:12:19 > 1:12:26That is the key moment.It is extraordinary. -- fudge. It
1:12:26 > 1:12:34certainly should not be decided now that the idea they will decided in a
1:12:34 > 1:12:39four our debate is rather unlikely. Also if you end up with a situation
1:12:39 > 1:12:44which does not explain with much clarity, it will not stop the noises
1:12:44 > 1:12:50from the rest of the party, will it? That has been unstoppable for 30
1:12:50 > 1:12:55years. That will be the constant background hum. It is the fate of
1:12:55 > 1:13:01every Tory leader to try to navigate around that noise. Of course, Europe
1:13:01 > 1:13:05has brought down the last three Tory Prime Minister. Although earlier I
1:13:05 > 1:13:11cautious about saying whether she would fall over the next few months,
1:13:11 > 1:13:17Europe is the thing that torment is Tory leaders.The alternative, could
1:13:17 > 1:13:22a non-Brexiteer come through and become Tory leader and then Prime
1:13:22 > 1:13:25Minister have another election? Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of
1:13:25 > 1:13:26Brexit.
1:13:26 > 1:13:27That's all for today.
1:13:27 > 1:13:30Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:30 > 1:13:32Until then, bye-bye.