11/02/2018

0:00:40 > 0:00:42Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:42 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:43 > 0:00:46And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing

0:00:46 > 0:00:48on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:48 > 0:00:49world of politics.

0:00:49 > 0:00:51After all the waiting we're finally going to hear

0:00:51 > 0:00:55the Prime Minister's vision for Britain's future relationship

0:00:55 > 0:01:01with the European Union, but not for another couple of weeks.

0:01:01 > 0:01:04Key to any agreement will be whether we should bind our customs'

0:01:04 > 0:01:07arrangements closely to the EU, or strike out on our own.

0:01:07 > 0:01:10We'll speak to leading figures from both sides of the argument.

0:01:10 > 0:01:13And Labour argue public ownership of services

0:01:13 > 0:01:14like the railways are an "economic necessity".

0:01:15 > 0:01:17We'll look at how the policy could work

0:01:17 > 0:01:22and whether it's on the right track.

0:01:22 > 0:01:27and whether it's on the right track.

0:01:27 > 0:01:29and whether it's on the right track.

0:01:35 > 0:01:37Who needs the Winter Olympics when there's plenty

0:01:37 > 0:01:39of thrills, spills and potential wipeouts in the world

0:01:39 > 0:01:44of Westminster.

0:01:44 > 0:01:47And with me today are three experts who may very well go off piste:

0:01:47 > 0:01:49Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun, the Guardian's Zoe Williams

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and Iain Martin from the Times.

0:01:51 > 0:01:53So we hear that Theresa May will finally be giving her

0:01:53 > 0:01:56vision of a Brexit deal in the next few weeks.

0:01:56 > 0:01:59The news follows Mrs May hosting two Brexit cabinet meetings this week

0:01:59 > 0:02:01in an attempt to thrash out the government's

0:02:01 > 0:02:02negotiating position.

0:02:02 > 0:02:04If reports are to be believed not much was decided,

0:02:04 > 0:02:07and so there will now have to be a team building session

0:02:07 > 0:02:09at the prime minister's country residence Chequers.

0:02:09 > 0:02:12Maybe a few trust exercises will be in order.

0:02:12 > 0:02:16At the moment however we're none the wiser and the EU's Chief

0:02:16 > 0:02:20Negotiator Michel Barnier seems less than impressed.

0:02:20 > 0:02:22To start the week the EU chief negotiator, Michel Barnier,

0:02:22 > 0:02:28made a trip to Downing Street with Brexit secretary David Davis.

0:02:28 > 0:02:31Pleasantries with the PM, but the warning was clear.

0:02:31 > 0:02:35Time has come to make choice.

0:02:35 > 0:02:36Time has come to make choice.

0:02:37 > 0:02:39All week the question was, are the Cabinet running

0:02:39 > 0:02:44away from making tough decisions on Brexit?

0:02:45 > 0:02:48As America woke up, the President took a pop at the

0:02:48 > 0:02:50National Health Service on Twitter.

0:02:50 > 0:02:52But was it all fake news?

0:02:52 > 0:02:57The Health Secretary hit back.

0:02:57 > 0:02:57The Health Secretary hit back.

0:02:57 > 0:03:00The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told the Commons

0:03:00 > 0:03:03that yet again the East Coast mainline franchise had failed,

0:03:03 > 0:03:06with renationalisation an option.

0:03:06 > 0:03:08While tensions in the Conservative Party on Brexit

0:03:08 > 0:03:13were on full display.

0:03:19 > 0:03:21One leading Tory Remainer did not hold back.

0:03:21 > 0:03:2235 hard ideological Brexiteers who are not Tories.

0:03:22 > 0:03:27It's about time Theresa May stood up to them and slung them out.

0:03:27 > 0:03:29On Tuesday, deeds and words, MPs celebrated 100 years since

0:03:29 > 0:03:33some women were given the vote.

0:03:33 > 0:03:38Westminster awash with suffragette colours purple, green, and white.

0:03:39 > 0:03:40Wednesday and Thursday, the Brexit War Cabinet settled

0:03:40 > 0:03:43in for crunch talks.

0:03:43 > 0:03:46They were meant to decide what the end state should look like.

0:03:46 > 0:03:47Breakthrough?

0:03:47 > 0:03:48Not yet.

0:03:48 > 0:03:52Also on Thursday, a leaked EU paper warned that the UK's single market

0:03:52 > 0:03:55access in the Brexit transition period could be revoked

0:03:55 > 0:03:57in the event of a dispute.

0:03:57 > 0:03:59Discourteous?

0:03:59 > 0:04:01The Brexit secretary thought so.

0:04:01 > 0:04:02It's not in good faith.

0:04:02 > 0:04:05We think it's unwise to publish that.

0:04:05 > 0:04:07The week ended as it began, with more warnings

0:04:07 > 0:04:09from Michel Barnier on Ireland, the customs union,

0:04:09 > 0:04:13and continuing EU UK disputes.

0:04:13 > 0:04:18If this disagreement persists, the transition is not a given.

0:04:20 > 0:04:24So, at the end of a busy week why not let off steam with a glass

0:04:24 > 0:04:26or two of Brexit juice, that's English sparkling wine

0:04:26 > 0:04:29to you and me, at the annual Conservative fundraiser the black

0:04:29 > 0:04:32and white ball.

0:04:32 > 0:04:33The highest bid of the night?

0:04:33 > 0:04:38£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

0:04:38 > 0:04:39£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

0:04:44 > 0:04:48We could not afford to get her on to this programme but we will talk to

0:04:48 > 0:04:52our panel of experts to find out what is going on behind the

0:04:52 > 0:04:58headlines. Iain Martin, by now we thought we would know more about the

0:04:58 > 0:05:01government's final negotiating position. We had two Brexit

0:05:01 > 0:05:06subcommittee meetings this week. They were meant to come to a

0:05:06 > 0:05:12conclusion I thought. Are we any further forward?No. It is possible

0:05:12 > 0:05:17this is a cunning baldric style plan to make Britain look as confused as

0:05:17 > 0:05:24possible.A very, very cunning plan. Very cunning. But the chances of

0:05:24 > 0:05:29that are highly unlikely. It seems the meeting has happened, there was

0:05:29 > 0:05:31discussion, the Prime Minister did not express an opinion. The Prime

0:05:31 > 0:05:37Minister was more interested in secrecy and in fear of a leak, but

0:05:37 > 0:05:42it seems there was not much to leak anyway, because there was not a

0:05:42 > 0:05:49decision. Actually, the UK's closer to a position than people commonly

0:05:49 > 0:05:54understand, definitely out of the single market, but on this crucial

0:05:54 > 0:05:59question of the customs union, or a customs agreement after, there is

0:05:59 > 0:06:05still no decision taken. I think the feeling at Westminster, people on

0:06:05 > 0:06:09both sides of the argument seems to be will someone decide, make the

0:06:09 > 0:06:14case and then get stuck into the talks which lets remember our

0:06:14 > 0:06:19supposed to begin in six or seven weeks' time.This Brexit

0:06:19 > 0:06:23subcommittee is split between Brexiteers and Remainers. The Prime

0:06:23 > 0:06:26Minister sits in the middle we understand not really expressing a

0:06:26 > 0:06:31view, that is put together for careful political reasons but it

0:06:31 > 0:06:35cannot continue, can it?I think the presentation at the minute cannot

0:06:35 > 0:06:41come to a decision because they have not done their homework, student

0:06:41 > 0:06:45essay style crisis conclusion and in the case of David Davis you could

0:06:45 > 0:06:51believe that is true but the main reason they cannot come together is

0:06:51 > 0:06:56because of an implacable deadlock. There is no compromise between in

0:06:56 > 0:06:59the customs union or not in the customs union. One side has to

0:06:59 > 0:07:05vanquish the other. The Remainers really have to think it would be

0:07:05 > 0:07:08economic suicide to leave the customs union but they are also

0:07:08 > 0:07:15really aware that this deadlock is grinding government to halt. It is

0:07:15 > 0:07:18national duty pulling them in two directions. They will ultimately be

0:07:18 > 0:07:24the ones to say I do not want to cut the baby in half, you have the baby.

0:07:24 > 0:07:28At some point it will have to go to the country because it is a stupid

0:07:28 > 0:07:33idea to cut a baby in half expect what will happen for the Prime

0:07:33 > 0:07:37Minister who will have to make a decision for the kind Brexit she has

0:07:37 > 0:07:43advocated?She will do that and the danger is huge. She will have to get

0:07:43 > 0:07:48off the perch at some point. We have been sitting in these chairs for 20

0:07:48 > 0:07:51months saying the Prime Minister has to choose between prioritising

0:07:51 > 0:07:55market access and prioritise and sovereignty. That is the simple

0:07:55 > 0:07:58case. You may get a bit of both out of the EU but you will get more of

0:07:58 > 0:08:05one than the other. I think interestingly, there is a lot of

0:08:05 > 0:08:07movement going on under the surface which Number Ten are desperate not

0:08:07 > 0:08:12to show any of the machinations of it because they want to present a

0:08:12 > 0:08:16complete finished article. There is some sense of consensus growing in

0:08:16 > 0:08:24the Brexit community I am told, not to sign off on a customs union but

0:08:24 > 0:08:28to sign off on a semi-single market alignment, soap aligning with all

0:08:28 > 0:08:32the single market rules on manufactured goods is what I am told

0:08:32 > 0:08:37they are beginning to agree to do, which they feel they should do

0:08:37 > 0:08:40because British companies will go ahead and stand by all the EU

0:08:40 > 0:08:45regulations because that is what they want to continue to sell into

0:08:45 > 0:08:49the EU. There are some members of the committee who are opposed to

0:08:49 > 0:08:53this. Boris Johnson is the main one. If they do agree to allow heavily on

0:08:53 > 0:08:56manufactured goods but not on services, in other words they choose

0:08:56 > 0:09:04what to Jerry picked and can agree what to cherish pick -- cherry pick,

0:09:04 > 0:09:08but if they choose what to align on Ben Boris Johnson has do make a

0:09:08 > 0:09:14decision himself.

0:09:14 > 0:09:17decision himself. We could potentially see some Cabinet

0:09:17 > 0:09:20resignations and I put Boris Johnson at the head of it in two or three

0:09:20 > 0:09:29weeks' time. That is the root of the potential compromise.On services,

0:09:29 > 0:09:35on financial services, there is not a functioning single market. The

0:09:35 > 0:09:40question comes down to manufactured goods. A lot of the regulations have

0:09:40 > 0:09:45their origins in global standards, something like the car industry. Is

0:09:45 > 0:09:49Boris Johnson going to find himself in a position where he will die in a

0:09:49 > 0:09:54ditch over trying to make the UK diverged from globally set standards

0:09:54 > 0:10:00on carburettors? It would be an interesting position if he does.It

0:10:00 > 0:10:06sounds ridiculous but it also sounds like the sort of thing he will do.

0:10:06 > 0:10:10We will come back to this later in the programme.

0:10:10 > 0:10:12As it's still not clear what the government wants its final

0:10:12 > 0:10:15relationship with the EU will look like, we thought we'd

0:10:15 > 0:10:18try to help out by looking in detail at the key dilemma,

0:10:18 > 0:10:20when it comes to working out a customs arrangement,

0:10:20 > 0:10:23should we hug the EU close, or break out on our own?

0:10:23 > 0:10:25We've lined up two politicians from either side of the argument

0:10:25 > 0:10:27and, just for a change, they'll be asking

0:10:27 > 0:10:28the questions not me.

0:10:28 > 0:10:31So I'm joined by the soon to be former Conservative MEP and leading

0:10:31 > 0:10:34figure in the Leave campaign Daniel Hannan and by the former

0:10:34 > 0:10:36Labour frontbencher and supporter of Open Britain Seema Malhotra.

0:10:36 > 0:10:40Earlier this morning we tossed a coin to see who would go first.

0:10:40 > 0:10:43Daniel Hannan won and he agreed that he would go first.

0:10:43 > 0:10:45So here with thoughts on what our end

0:10:45 > 0:10:50relationship should be.

0:10:50 > 0:10:50relationship should be.

0:10:50 > 0:10:5490% of the world's economic growth over the next 15 years will come

0:10:54 > 0:10:59from outside the European Union. Britain is a maritime nation, linked

0:10:59 > 0:11:03to the world's fastest-growing economies by language, law, culture

0:11:03 > 0:11:08and kinship. But we cannot sign trade deals, not while we are in the

0:11:08 > 0:11:12EU's customs union. Staying in the customs union after we leave, would

0:11:12 > 0:11:17be the worst of all worlds. It would give Brussels 100% of our trade

0:11:17 > 0:11:24policy with 0% input from us. In order to take advantage of Brexit,

0:11:24 > 0:11:28we need to set our own regulations. Sometimes, for reasons of economies

0:11:28 > 0:11:32of scale, we might want to match what the EU is doing. If we do want

0:11:32 > 0:11:37to keep elements of the single market, it must be through agreement

0:11:37 > 0:11:42and on a case-by-case basis. In 1980, the states now in the European

0:11:42 > 0:11:48Union counted for 30% of the world's GDP. Today that figure is 15% and

0:11:48 > 0:11:55falling. Britain needs to raise its size. Our future bright, our future

0:11:55 > 0:11:57is global.

0:11:57 > 0:11:59Well, Seema and Dan are with me now.

0:11:59 > 0:12:04And just to explain the rules.

0:12:05 > 0:12:10Seema Malhotra has five minutes to interrogate down.This week a Tory

0:12:10 > 0:12:14MP said I think the real concern about the direction of travel when

0:12:14 > 0:12:19it comes to Brexit, we are to real crunch point and the government has

0:12:19 > 0:12:24not worked out 19 months on what the endgame is and we need to know. That

0:12:24 > 0:12:30is pretty clear, isn't it? You and others said Brexit will be easy so

0:12:30 > 0:12:37why is this the case?Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. I do not

0:12:37 > 0:12:43accept that the government has not made it position clear. It made it

0:12:43 > 0:12:47clear in Lancaster House beach and a series of white papers since. As

0:12:47 > 0:12:51Theresa May says we want to keep control of our laws, taxes and

0:12:51 > 0:12:55borders. But within that, we want to have the closest possible

0:12:55 > 0:12:59relationship with the rest of the EU, compatible with being a

0:12:59 > 0:13:06sovereign country. We want to be its best friend and ally. We will align

0:13:06 > 0:13:09with other countries but on our own terms.Things are not going

0:13:09 > 0:13:14according to plan. You and others said we will be keeping key

0:13:14 > 0:13:18agencies. David Davis said we would keep the agencies but now they are

0:13:18 > 0:13:23leaving. The European medicines agency is heading for Amsterdam, the

0:13:23 > 0:13:27European banking agency will go to Paris. That is 2000 highly skilled

0:13:27 > 0:13:33jobs being lost from the capital. Isn't this a high price we are

0:13:33 > 0:13:42paying for certainty?If you're that fixated on Eurocrats jobs then you

0:13:42 > 0:13:47there is something wrong with your priorities. All of the worries we

0:13:47 > 0:13:50had about job losses turned out to be nonsense. Instead of losing half

0:13:50 > 0:13:55a million, we have gained half a million. More people are working

0:13:55 > 0:13:59than ever before. I never claimed we would be keeping these Euro agencies

0:13:59 > 0:14:04in the UK. Of course if you leave the EU you leave these Euro agencies

0:14:04 > 0:14:11and you no longer have them on our soil. We will make our own

0:14:11 > 0:14:15regulations.You are calling these agencies Eurocrats, these are people

0:14:15 > 0:14:20helping with key sectors of our economy, scientists, those who are

0:14:20 > 0:14:23experts in finance and other sectors. I agree that Britain could

0:14:23 > 0:14:28trade more with the world and we need to, but evidence of leaks from

0:14:28 > 0:14:32the government this week shows that the impact of free trade deals

0:14:32 > 0:14:36around the world will no way compensate for the loss of trade

0:14:36 > 0:14:41with the EU which a hard Brexit would do for the UK. If you don't

0:14:41 > 0:14:44believe me, you can listen to the words of the Prime Minister who said

0:14:44 > 0:14:48during the referendum we export more to Ireland than we do to China,

0:14:48 > 0:14:54twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, it is not realistic to think

0:14:54 > 0:14:58we could replace European trade than these markets.We export more to

0:14:58 > 0:15:03Ireland than China, that is our problem! Which is the better

0:15:03 > 0:15:06long-term growth prospects?Don't you agree that there will be an

0:15:06 > 0:15:09impact on British businesses and families even in the short term and

0:15:09 > 0:15:14isn't it right that you raise that risk with the British people?

0:15:14 > 0:15:17Obviously we want free and frictionless trade with the EU and

0:15:17 > 0:15:24the freedom to my trade deals further of broad. EU does not have a

0:15:24 > 0:15:32trade deal with US, with India and old friends like Australia, the idea

0:15:32 > 0:15:37that we cannot do trade deals and bring benefits to this country I

0:15:37 > 0:15:41think is incredibly defeatist. Are we really saying it is a good idea

0:15:41 > 0:15:45to sell more to Ireland with five mil in people than to China with

0:15:45 > 0:15:51more than a billion. -- 5 million people.Their study after study

0:15:51 > 0:15:55which shows the proximity we have two nations goes a long way to

0:15:55 > 0:15:59determining our economic links, that is not just the case for us but for

0:15:59 > 0:16:06countries around the world. Of course we can do more. We have a

0:16:06 > 0:16:12trade surplus with the US already. I have spoken to investors from other

0:16:12 > 0:16:15countries who say they want to come and do more in the UK but the point

0:16:15 > 0:16:19is, part of the reason they do that is because we have access and they

0:16:19 > 0:16:22have access to the European markets of 500 million people to sell those

0:16:22 > 0:16:27goods as well. What do you say to the genuine concerns from Nissan and

0:16:27 > 0:16:31Honda, now even the Japanese ambassador talking about a challenge

0:16:31 > 0:16:34to the profitability of those companies in the UK, and the threat

0:16:34 > 0:16:39they may have to leave those operations and go elsewhere?They

0:16:39 > 0:16:43made those threats during the referendum and after the vote was in

0:16:43 > 0:16:47they confirmed that not only were they staying here but Nissan was

0:16:47 > 0:16:50increasing its productivity and activity in the UK. I think you

0:16:50 > 0:16:53should look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying.

0:16:53 > 0:16:57This idea that we are defined by our geography is an old-fashioned

0:16:57 > 0:17:0018th-century way of looking at trade. In the modern age where we

0:17:00 > 0:17:05have low freight costs, the Internet and cheap flights, geographical

0:17:05 > 0:17:11proximity has never mattered less. We are linked by language, law,

0:17:11 > 0:17:13cultural, legal systems and accountancy systems to the fastest

0:17:13 > 0:17:19growing con is the planet.

0:17:20 > 0:17:24I would like to ask you, you have set all your vision for how you

0:17:24 > 0:17:27would like to see our future relationship with the EU. How

0:17:27 > 0:17:31confident are you the Prime Minister will outline a clear vision soon and

0:17:31 > 0:17:35it will outline with Ewels?She's outlined the broad principles

0:17:35 > 0:17:40already. -- with yours. Fleshing out issues like how to make the Irish

0:17:40 > 0:17:44border were, how to make the facilitation of customs work. This

0:17:44 > 0:17:48thing nobody has explained what we can do in terms of customs is not

0:17:48 > 0:17:51true. The government produced a lengthy paper talking about how we

0:17:51 > 0:18:00can do things like expand the ... It's worth noting that both ahead of

0:18:00 > 0:18:03HMR see here and his equivalent in the Republic of Ireland have said

0:18:03 > 0:18:07there is no need for a Customs border, that companies can make

0:18:07 > 0:18:12their customs declarations in the way they make their tax

0:18:12 > 0:18:15declarations. They are now emphatically not choosing to listen

0:18:15 > 0:18:17to the experts when they say they don't need a hard order in Ireland.

0:18:17 > 0:18:22Thanks.

0:18:22 > 0:18:25Now it's the turn of Seema to be grilled but first,

0:18:25 > 0:18:27here's her thoughts on how our future relationship

0:18:27 > 0:18:28with the EU should look.

0:18:28 > 0:18:33I respect the result of the referendum. We need to move forward

0:18:33 > 0:18:39to find a deal that protects jobs in the economy. 43% of all of our trade

0:18:39 > 0:18:44is done with the EU. Staying inside the customs union gives us tariff

0:18:44 > 0:18:48free trade access to our many new partners. Issues surrounding

0:18:48 > 0:18:51immigration and sovereignty can be addressed while staying in the

0:18:51 > 0:18:55customs union and the single market. But on terms that we negotiate. We

0:18:55 > 0:19:01can also then trade freely with countries the EU has deals with.

0:19:01 > 0:19:06Deals that we have helped negotiate. And staying in the customs union is

0:19:06 > 0:19:10key to a solution on Ireland. Our select committee found that it is

0:19:10 > 0:19:16unclear how we can avoid a hardboard if we leave the customs union. I

0:19:16 > 0:19:19agree we need reform and greater controls on the freedom of movement,

0:19:19 > 0:19:23but people did not vote to become poorer. Let's leave the European

0:19:23 > 0:19:26Union in a way that puts the prosperity of families and

0:19:26 > 0:19:29businesses first.

0:19:29 > 0:19:31So as before you have five minutes to give a grilling.

0:19:31 > 0:19:33Off you go.

0:19:33 > 0:19:39Two weeks ago Jeremy Corbyn says said he was against staying in the

0:19:39 > 0:19:42customs union because it is protectionist against developing

0:19:42 > 0:19:45countries, do you agree?It's important to balance what we do need

0:19:45 > 0:19:49to see change in terms of international trade and support for

0:19:49 > 0:19:52developing countries. But also to recognise the contribution that

0:19:52 > 0:19:55being in the customs union and the European Union has made for our

0:19:55 > 0:20:02prosperity...Do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn?I think that a lot

0:20:02 > 0:20:05has been done to support development, International

0:20:05 > 0:20:08development...Forgive me, that's a different question... We're not

0:20:08 > 0:20:12talking about that, do you agree that the customs union is

0:20:12 > 0:20:15protectionist against developing countries?It can be for those

0:20:15 > 0:20:22countries that are in the customs union. That's very understood

0:20:22 > 0:20:27economics. It encourages trade creation and development between

0:20:27 > 0:20:32those countries, but it doesn't preclude, as has been shown by the

0:20:32 > 0:20:35over 60 trade agreements we have is a European Union with countries

0:20:35 > 0:20:38around the rolled, from having strong relationships with other

0:20:38 > 0:20:42countries. That's what I believe. -- countries around the world.There

0:20:42 > 0:20:47are lots of things we do not produce ourselves. We have to impose tariffs

0:20:47 > 0:20:53on oranges. In yours and my constituencies there are not orange

0:20:53 > 0:20:57plantations. Is it a reasonable thing that to protect Mediterranean

0:20:57 > 0:21:00orange growers we should be discriminating against producers in

0:21:00 > 0:21:04Africa, the Americas, developing countries, at a cost our own

0:21:04 > 0:21:09consumers?I believe what you can do is negotiate across the world in

0:21:09 > 0:21:12terms of how you encourage greater free trade and greater ways in which

0:21:12 > 0:21:17we can trade with different nations. That's what we do also already. We

0:21:17 > 0:21:22had no Norma 's track record in investing in farmers in Africa...On

0:21:22 > 0:21:27that point... -- we have had an enormous track record. That means we

0:21:27 > 0:21:31are giving Brussels total control of our trade policies but we are no

0:21:31 > 0:21:35longer EU members so we have no control.Almost 50% of our trade is

0:21:35 > 0:21:43with the EU. Over 70% of the companies... Over 70% of companies

0:21:43 > 0:21:47that export to the EU, that is jobs your constituents and my

0:21:47 > 0:21:51constituents will be dependent on, over 90% of that being small and

0:21:51 > 0:21:55medium-size enterprises. They look...I'm not having much joy

0:21:55 > 0:22:00getting answers to my questions. You are going off on a tangent. Let me

0:22:00 > 0:22:04have another go.I'm saying we can do both and that is what we should

0:22:04 > 0:22:08be doing.You think leaving the EU but staying in the customs union so

0:22:08 > 0:22:14Brussels controls 100% of our

0:22:16 > 0:22:17Brussels controls 100% of our trade but we have zero input... You think

0:22:17 > 0:22:20that gives us more influence in world trade than taking our own

0:22:20 > 0:22:23voice and vote in the world trade organisation and be able to do our

0:22:23 > 0:22:27own deals, is that what you are saying?When you talk about the WTO

0:22:27 > 0:22:30rules, if you look at the government's analysis which was an

0:22:30 > 0:22:35average of other studies, it shows even in the South East if there is a

0:22:35 > 0:22:38withdrawal based on...I'm going to have one more go to get an answer

0:22:38 > 0:22:40because you are telling me lots of interesting things which are nothing

0:22:40 > 0:22:45to do with what I'm asking. Let me have another go... The highest

0:22:45 > 0:22:52tariffs imposed by the customs union are on the items that most

0:22:52 > 0:22:56negatively impact people on low incomes, particularly food,

0:22:56 > 0:23:00clothing, and footwear. They pay a proportionately higher chunk of

0:23:00 > 0:23:02their weekly Budget on these commodities, these basic things.

0:23:02 > 0:23:06They are the most badly hit. We are clobbering poor people in this

0:23:06 > 0:23:10country in order to hurt developing nations. How can you come as a

0:23:10 > 0:23:14progressive politician with a proud history of standing up for people

0:23:14 > 0:23:18who are underprivileged, now stand there and defend a system that

0:23:18 > 0:23:23forces us to give more to wealthy French farmers than poor African

0:23:23 > 0:23:25farmers, and forces the highest bills to be paid by the lowest

0:23:25 > 0:23:29income people in Britain?I will fundamentally disagree with you. I

0:23:29 > 0:23:34believe being a member of the EU has been fundamental for our prosperity,

0:23:34 > 0:23:39for families and businesses. What you fail to highlight is numerous

0:23:39 > 0:23:44studies that show many British families are worse off as a result

0:23:44 > 0:23:48of us having had the referendum and now the uncertainty that is

0:23:48 > 0:23:56followed. People have already suffered. -- that has followed.You

0:23:56 > 0:24:01are still not answering. Let me have another crack at this. The countries

0:24:01 > 0:24:05closest to the EU economically. The countries that have opted to

0:24:05 > 0:24:09parallel or join the single market Norway, Switzerland, Iceland,

0:24:09 > 0:24:13Liechtenstein, none of them is interested in joining the customs

0:24:13 > 0:24:18union. Why do you think that is? They have separate arrangements.

0:24:18 > 0:24:21They have arrangements with each other. They have ways of resolving

0:24:21 > 0:24:25disputes. It is like a mini European Union in the way that they work

0:24:25 > 0:24:31together. I believe that we could consider approaching those countries

0:24:31 > 0:24:33to see whether that would be an arrangement that could work for

0:24:33 > 0:24:39Britain.That would mean leaving the customs union, right?Potentially

0:24:39 > 0:24:43alongside how we negotiate being in the customs union. Fundamental for

0:24:43 > 0:24:46peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. It's not just

0:24:46 > 0:24:50me saying that, it's the Irish government, the head of the Irish

0:24:50 > 0:24:55police, and the Irish people.Time is up. Thank you for your questions.

0:24:55 > 0:24:59What you are advocating is not Labour policy. Do you believe you

0:24:59 > 0:25:04will change the mind of Jeremy Corbyn?You know there is a debate

0:25:04 > 0:25:11going on in the Labour Party. That is not unexpected, because as the

0:25:11 > 0:25:15situation changes, as new facts come to light, as we have to consider

0:25:15 > 0:25:19what life will be like with the end state post the transition, we will

0:25:19 > 0:25:23have that debate. It is certainly the case that the range of views

0:25:23 > 0:25:26across the Labour Party are far less in terms of the spectrum of what's

0:25:26 > 0:25:31going on in the Conservative Party. The fundamental issue is we have a

0:25:31 > 0:25:35Prime Minister and cabinet that have no idea about end state. They have

0:25:35 > 0:25:39failed to reach any sort of agreement after two days away this

0:25:39 > 0:25:45week. And I think it is embarrassing for us as a nation that 19 months

0:25:45 > 0:25:49after the referendum we are in such disarray.Thank you both very much

0:25:49 > 0:25:51for coming in and asking the questions.

0:25:51 > 0:25:54And those of you in the South of England will be lucky

0:25:54 > 0:25:57enough to see more of Dan Hannan as he'll be appearing

0:25:57 > 0:25:59in the Sunday Politics South in just over ten minutes.

0:25:59 > 0:26:00And you can find more Brexit analysis

0:26:00 > 0:26:02and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:26:02 > 0:26:05The recent collapse of Carillion and the ending

0:26:05 > 0:26:07of the East Coast Rail franchise early has emboldened the

0:26:07 > 0:26:09Labour Party to push its agenda for renationalising key services

0:26:09 > 0:26:11such as rail, water and energy.

0:26:11 > 0:26:14But that's not all, the party is looking into supporting local

0:26:14 > 0:26:15economies by helping councils do things like bringing

0:26:15 > 0:26:18more services in house, using local small businesses

0:26:18 > 0:26:23where possible and helping to set up new small scale energy companies.

0:26:24 > 0:26:27So, is the plan workable, and can it help Labour shed

0:26:27 > 0:26:30the image that more state control will lead to inefficiency and a lack

0:26:30 > 0:26:31of innovation and investment?

0:26:31 > 0:26:32Elizabeth Glinka has travelled to Preston,

0:26:32 > 0:26:35a Labour council the party are championing as a model

0:26:35 > 0:26:40for the future, to find out more.

0:26:49 > 0:26:54When he visited in the 1850s car Marks said industrial Preston might

0:26:54 > 0:26:58be the staging post for an economic revolution. It's taken 160 years but

0:26:58 > 0:27:06he may have been onto. -- Karl Marx said.Preston described in the press

0:27:06 > 0:27:12as a pilgrimage for London folk. LAUGHTER

0:27:12 > 0:27:16The Shadow Chancellor just dropping in this week to heap praise on

0:27:16 > 0:27:22Preston's new locally focused economic plan. Nowhere is that plan

0:27:22 > 0:27:27more visible than at the city's trendy undercover market. Traders

0:27:27 > 0:27:32rush to finish their new stalls ahead of next week's reopening. The

0:27:32 > 0:27:36so-called Preston model borrows heavily from similar schemes in the

0:27:36 > 0:27:41American rust belt. It installs the virtues of keeping more services

0:27:41 > 0:27:45in-house using worker let cooperatives. And when it comes to

0:27:45 > 0:27:50big contracts like the redevelopment of this beautiful Victorian market,

0:27:50 > 0:27:54they go not to the overextended big boys like a religion but to smaller,

0:27:54 > 0:28:03local firms, keeping the money in the area. -- like Carillion but to

0:28:03 > 0:28:07smaller, local firms. Matt Brown, a local boy motivated by what he saw

0:28:07 > 0:28:12as the continued decline of a once great city, is behind this.We came

0:28:12 > 0:28:16to the conclusion that a fightback we've got to do it ourselves. We

0:28:16 > 0:28:19cannot be dependent on central government that is cutting back on

0:28:19 > 0:28:24money. The public sector is pretty much buying locally from local

0:28:24 > 0:28:28suppliers. We are looking to form cooperatives. We're selling our own

0:28:28 > 0:28:32energy in partnership with other councils. Pensions are invested

0:28:32 > 0:28:37locally. These alternatives around the world. In American cities like

0:28:37 > 0:28:40York, Cleveland, and Barcelona, people are waking up to the fact

0:28:40 > 0:28:45that we have an economy that works for the top 1%. -- like New York and

0:28:45 > 0:28:50Cleveland. And the rest of us are basically fighting for the scraps.

0:28:50 > 0:28:54Under the model the council has spent an additional £4 million

0:28:54 > 0:29:00locally since 2012. It has also persuaded universities and hospitals

0:29:00 > 0:29:04to redirect their spending towards local suppliers. And it isn't just

0:29:04 > 0:29:06Preston, a number of other Labour authorities are trying something

0:29:06 > 0:29:12new.We have local councils now that have set up energy companies to

0:29:12 > 0:29:17provide cheaper, renewable energy foot we have others running bus

0:29:17 > 0:29:24networks. -- cheaper, renewable energy and we have others running

0:29:24 > 0:29:27bus networks. It is a way of getting best value for money as well as

0:29:27 > 0:29:33Democratic controlled of services. Your critics might say this is

0:29:33 > 0:29:38cuddly, cooperative windowdressing for an agenda which, long-term, is

0:29:38 > 0:29:41about mass renationalisation, which you think the public would not be

0:29:41 > 0:29:43keen on. CHUCKLES

0:29:43 > 0:29:48How sceptical people can be. I am a socialist. We should share our

0:29:48 > 0:29:52wealth. We have councillors going out to get elected. When they get

0:29:52 > 0:29:55elected they say they will use our council resources locally and in

0:29:55 > 0:30:01that way we can benefit local people.Is it back to the future? It

0:30:01 > 0:30:04was revealed this week the government may be on the brink of

0:30:04 > 0:30:08renationalising the East Coast mainline. Labour's frontbencher has

0:30:08 > 0:30:12been clear about its aspiration to renationalise not just a rail but

0:30:12 > 0:30:17energy, the Post Office, and even water. This weekend the party held a

0:30:17 > 0:30:21conference to discuss the expansion of the Preston model, but others

0:30:21 > 0:30:26remain less convinced by its wisdom. This idea is very popular nowadays,

0:30:26 > 0:30:30both on the political right, people like Trump promoting it, and on the

0:30:30 > 0:30:35political left. But it is a failure to understand the benefits of trade.

0:30:35 > 0:30:41The idea you can enrich yourself with the border. I draw a line

0:30:41 > 0:30:45around an area. And somehow that will make us better off is magical

0:30:45 > 0:30:49thinking. How you become better off is through becoming more productive.

0:30:49 > 0:30:55These ideas are tricks for becoming richer that involve boundaries. It

0:30:55 > 0:31:00is an abiding fantasy, but it is a fantasy.The doubters may doubt, but

0:31:00 > 0:31:04in a post-Carillion world labour is convinced public opinion is pulling

0:31:04 > 0:31:07in its direction.

0:31:07 > 0:31:09Well, to help me to understand more about Labour's

0:31:09 > 0:31:12plans I'm joined by Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald

0:31:12 > 0:31:16who's in Newcastle.

0:31:16 > 0:31:25Good morning, thank you for joining us.John McDonnell says the plans to

0:31:25 > 0:31:27re-nationalise energy, water and rail would cost absolutely nothing.

0:31:27 > 0:31:34That sounds too good to be true. Explain how it could work?In terms

0:31:34 > 0:31:38of the rail Wales, it would bring the railways back into public

0:31:38 > 0:31:44ownership at no cost at all. -- in terms of the railways. We would

0:31:44 > 0:31:51bring them back once the franchises expire. That would be considerable

0:31:51 > 0:31:55savings of £1 billion per annum. Then you will have to find £70

0:31:55 > 0:31:59billion for the water industry, nearly 40 billion for the National

0:31:59 > 0:32:07Grid, how can that cost nothing? Because you would be acquiring an

0:32:07 > 0:32:13asset, you would be acquiring an asset, you would be paying back the

0:32:13 > 0:32:17revenues which you derive over the businesses over time and you would

0:32:17 > 0:32:21keep the costs down for the consumer.So you would be adding to

0:32:21 > 0:32:25the national debt and you would have to pay interest on that debt which

0:32:25 > 0:32:30you would do out of the revenue you get from the companies, but you also

0:32:30 > 0:32:33say it will cost less from the consumers that bills would come

0:32:33 > 0:32:41down.If you have £30.5 billion of dividends paid out, if you run

0:32:41 > 0:32:46things on a not-for-profit basis, it can ensure that customers can get

0:32:46 > 0:32:49the best possible returns.That profit might be good for customers

0:32:49 > 0:32:53but it does not sound good for paying back the interest on the

0:32:53 > 0:32:57loans that you took out for buying the organisations in the first

0:32:57 > 0:33:02place?You heard John McDonnell express the analogy of having a

0:33:02 > 0:33:06mortgage over a property. You have acquired the assets, you have the

0:33:06 > 0:33:10income derived from renting it out, it pays the gas it and you have

0:33:10 > 0:33:14still got it. It makes consulate sent to hold those acids and make

0:33:14 > 0:33:20them work for the benefit of the citizens.If interest rates rise,

0:33:20 > 0:33:25after you bought that house and you are renting it out, it is important

0:33:25 > 0:33:31that costs can derive from the rental income. We know that rates

0:33:31 > 0:33:35can rise. There is every possibility that the interest you will be paying

0:33:35 > 0:33:40will not cover the profits and cost? It is no different to the position

0:33:40 > 0:33:46now. If water companies and energy companies are financed, they have

0:33:46 > 0:33:51those structures in place, the rate of interest that they pay on their

0:33:51 > 0:33:56financing is passed through to the consumer ultimately.I tell you how

0:33:56 > 0:34:01it is different now, and your system it would be passed to the taxpayer

0:34:01 > 0:34:05presumably. If any of these industries started making a loss,

0:34:05 > 0:34:11who picks up the tab for that?Have they made a loss since they were

0:34:11 > 0:34:16privatised? They have not, they have made very great profits.The reason

0:34:16 > 0:34:23they are giving up the east Coast franchise is because they have lost

0:34:23 > 0:34:26£200 million.That shows how the franchising system is completely and

0:34:26 > 0:34:32utterly flawed and should be abandoned.If the government run

0:34:32 > 0:34:37East Coast Mainline lost £2 billion, who would be on the hook, the

0:34:37 > 0:34:42taxpayer?When the government last ran East Coast Mainline they ran it

0:34:42 > 0:34:46at a profit, it brought money into the Treasury. We have a good history

0:34:46 > 0:34:50of running the railways correctly and not having this bailout to

0:34:50 > 0:34:54Richard Branson and Brian Souter and the rest of them or seeing the

0:34:54 > 0:35:01dividends and profits overseas to the state-owned companies of

0:35:01 > 0:35:05continental Europe. We want to put an end to that and make sure we run

0:35:05 > 0:35:11our railways for the benefits of the public.Let's look at one company,

0:35:11 > 0:35:15Bristol energy which looks like the kind of company you are advocating.

0:35:15 > 0:35:21It is set up locally and has ethical behaviour. There are no shareholders

0:35:21 > 0:35:25so nobody is taking a profit out of it. It has lost 2 million over two

0:35:25 > 0:35:30years and does not expect to be profitable until 2021. But does not

0:35:30 > 0:35:37sound like a great deal for the taxpayer if that is how you're going

0:35:37 > 0:35:40to run the National Grid.If they are recouping the losses and they

0:35:40 > 0:35:43have the trajectory of growth and greater incomes, they will look at

0:35:43 > 0:35:51that and say to successful.The Labour government...They got tax

0:35:51 > 0:35:55breaks, public capital to set them up in the first instance, they were

0:35:55 > 0:36:00heavily subsidised so they could go on and enjoy the benefits of private

0:36:00 > 0:36:04enterprise that does not benefit the consumer or the taxpayer or the

0:36:04 > 0:36:09citizens, however you wish to describe it.The consumer and the

0:36:09 > 0:36:14taxpayer may be the same person but they have a different financial

0:36:14 > 0:36:19relationship with these companies. What comes first, using any profit

0:36:19 > 0:36:23or revenue you have used to acquire these assets or cutting bills?You

0:36:23 > 0:36:29do both. If you have got that income you can use it for those purposes.

0:36:29 > 0:36:35Do cut energy bills or do you repay the debt?Those who have benefited

0:36:35 > 0:36:39from privatisation of had the benefit of not only using that money

0:36:39 > 0:36:42to pay the debt they incurred to buy the assets, they are now using it to

0:36:42 > 0:36:47make dividend payments out to their shareholders. It clearly can be done

0:36:47 > 0:36:51and we want to be in that position so it works for the benefit of

0:36:51 > 0:36:57people and not for corporate entities.The shareholders are not

0:36:57 > 0:37:00all millionaire individuals. A lot of this is owned by pension funds to

0:37:00 > 0:37:05which many workers pensions are held, can you guarantee that you

0:37:05 > 0:37:13will reinforce the Leave reimburse them at full market value so that

0:37:13 > 0:37:18nobody's pension will lose out?The market value is the market value at

0:37:18 > 0:37:23the time these assets are required. John McDonnell has made it clear

0:37:23 > 0:37:30that they will be acquired at that rate.But not for cash, in exchange

0:37:30 > 0:37:33for government bonds?They are still in that strong position of having

0:37:33 > 0:37:38the value fully reflected. What is happening is that not everybody is a

0:37:38 > 0:37:43shareholder. It means there is greater equity for all of the

0:37:43 > 0:37:46population, not only an narrow segment of it, surely that has got

0:37:46 > 0:37:52to be for the benefit of everybody. Thank you for talking to us.

0:37:52 > 0:37:54It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:54 > 0:37:55Still to come:

0:37:55 > 0:37:58We'll look at the implications to the charity sector of the latest

0:37:58 > 0:38:00allegations of sexual abuse involving Oxfam staff

0:38:00 > 0:38:00and the government's promise to get tough.

0:38:14 > 0:38:20Welcome to Sunday Politics Wales. In a few moments, is the party over for

0:38:20 > 0:38:24Ukip? Or will next week was that meeting marked a new beginning.

0:38:24 > 0:38:29Their leader in Wales, Neil Hamilton, will be here live. But

0:38:29 > 0:38:33first, one of Wales's top criminal barristers says the criminal justice

0:38:33 > 0:38:37system has hit a crisis point. Andrew Taylor says problems over

0:38:37 > 0:38:40disclosure of evidence and a major forensic provider going to the wall

0:38:40 > 0:38:46has caused a crisis of confidence. He wants this -- warned this may

0:38:46 > 0:38:52lead to guilty people going free and innocent people being locked up.

0:38:52 > 0:38:55The criminal justice system is a complex machine. As many parts

0:38:55 > 0:39:00working together to uphold the rule of law, making sure the guilty end

0:39:00 > 0:39:03up behind bars of the innocent go free. But it is a system that is in

0:39:03 > 0:39:13crisis. So says Andrew Taylor. He spent decades as a barrister, acting

0:39:13 > 0:39:15as defence and many high-profile cases from sexual offences to

0:39:15 > 0:39:17murder. When I was qualifying as a barrister

0:39:17 > 0:39:22many years ago, a very famous judge said there was not a better country

0:39:22 > 0:39:27in the world in which to be arrested. In other words, we should

0:39:27 > 0:39:30have confidence in the police, the judges, the courts and the criminal

0:39:30 > 0:39:34justice system. I think that was well founded.

0:39:34 > 0:39:38But I think, if you was around today, he would have second

0:39:38 > 0:39:43thoughts. And his main concern is disclosure. The duty on police and

0:39:43 > 0:39:46prosecutors to disclose evidence to defence lawyers. Liam Allen had the

0:39:46 > 0:39:48case against him dropped police failed to disclose key evidence in

0:39:48 > 0:39:54his rape trial. I have come across on occasions to

0:39:54 > 0:39:59numerous for me to specify what we have been writing to the police and

0:39:59 > 0:40:03the CPS, time after time, saying my client says that you will find

0:40:03 > 0:40:06evidence on a phone, you will find evidence on social media. Very

0:40:06 > 0:40:12often, we're told, well, we've looked and we can't find it. Do you

0:40:12 > 0:40:17really expect us to go trawling through 4000 text messages or 400

0:40:17 > 0:40:24hours of CCTV? Now the woman in charge has ordered

0:40:24 > 0:40:26an urgent review of all rape and serious assault cases in Wales and

0:40:26 > 0:40:30England. It is a crisis for all sorts of

0:40:30 > 0:40:35reasons and judges are warning now, if we don't do something about it,

0:40:35 > 0:40:38juries may very well decide, we can't really convicted this person

0:40:38 > 0:40:42because we can't be sure that the police have done their job properly

0:40:42 > 0:40:44and every piece of evidence has properly been reviewed.

0:40:44 > 0:40:52Just over a week ago one of the largest private forensic providers

0:40:52 > 0:40:57went bust. It oversaw 2000 cases of 30 forces including rape, murder and

0:40:57 > 0:41:01serious drug crime. It covered everything from DNA to drug testing.

0:41:01 > 0:41:05Andrew Taylor said, the fallout could not be more serious. Those

0:41:05 > 0:41:07cases are going to be delayed. It may well be that she exhibits are

0:41:07 > 0:41:15lost or destroyed. It will delay justice and still nine justice for

0:41:15 > 0:41:17many people. The former Labour crime and police

0:41:17 > 0:41:20Minister now wants answers from ministers.We don't know what is

0:41:20 > 0:41:25going to happen to the work they do. That is about DNA, it's about

0:41:25 > 0:41:27evidence, it's about murders committed about domestic violence,

0:41:27 > 0:41:31it's about burglary evidence. We don't know what's happening to

0:41:31 > 0:41:34that. The Home Office is to supporting and working closely with

0:41:34 > 0:41:38police to accept into temporarily banned the forensic work and protect

0:41:38 > 0:41:40live cases. But there was something else that is

0:41:40 > 0:41:46worrying barristers. With Government cuts to both the police, the CPS, to

0:41:46 > 0:41:49legal aid and to general funding across the board in terms of

0:41:49 > 0:41:56probation, and outside agencies and feed into the system, the system is

0:41:56 > 0:42:01not so much creaking, I think, as almost coming to the point where we

0:42:01 > 0:42:04can't cope any more. This very issue made top billing at

0:42:04 > 0:42:11Prime Minister's Questions this week.During the period the Prime

0:42:11 > 0:42:17Minister was Home Secretary 2.3 billion was cut from police budgets.

0:42:17 > 0:42:19These spectra of Constabulary warns neighbourhood policing risks being

0:42:19 > 0:42:25eroded and the shortage of detectives is at a national crisis.

0:42:25 > 0:42:28Does the Prime Minister think the Inspectorate are scaremongering?

0:42:28 > 0:42:31This is a Government that is protecting police budgets. I would

0:42:31 > 0:42:34like to remind the Right Honourable gentleman that the Labour Party's

0:42:34 > 0:42:40former Shadow Home Secretary, now the police and crime commission of

0:42:40 > 0:42:44Greater Manchester, himself said that the police could take up to 10%

0:42:44 > 0:42:50cut in their budgets. Whilst attempted child, MP Mr Davies

0:42:50 > 0:42:55is a former police officer. Small money is not the answer. I

0:42:55 > 0:42:57don't think it is at crisis point at all. Criminal Justice is growing

0:42:57 > 0:43:03through system, is going through a period now some difficulty. And I

0:43:03 > 0:43:06think that is more down to the organisations that work within it as

0:43:06 > 0:43:13opposed to any sort of funding issue that people like to think or alleges

0:43:13 > 0:43:16happening. So it is not down to funding cuts?

0:43:16 > 0:43:19No, I don't get is down to funding cuts. I think some of the issues

0:43:19 > 0:43:24that we have these days with disclosure, and we've seen it in

0:43:24 > 0:43:29some of the rape cases, that is more a training issue.

0:43:29 > 0:43:32You will find perhaps in the long-term the conviction rate

0:43:32 > 0:43:39dropping, less being charged, and a dual crisis of innocent people going

0:43:39 > 0:43:42to prison while guilty walk away. And many more across the system are

0:43:42 > 0:43:44warning that if the Government doesn't action now, the cogs may

0:43:44 > 0:43:50stop turning. We've all heard the argument that

0:43:50 > 0:43:55Wales could make more of her natural resources in terms of generating

0:43:55 > 0:44:00energy. In a lecture this week Professor Calvin Jones from Calvin

0:44:00 > 0:44:03University will be talking about what options are practical and

0:44:03 > 0:44:05beneficial to local people. When I met him I asked whether capitalising

0:44:05 > 0:44:08on these resources with a view to making a profit on the energy they

0:44:08 > 0:44:14create, was possible. It is very difficult to imagine a

0:44:14 > 0:44:24situation where you had a very large Welsh owned company, muscling have a

0:44:24 > 0:44:26presence in keeping some of that money locally. In the fashion that

0:44:26 > 0:44:33we did years ago. So, you know, yes, it is feasible that we did have a

0:44:33 > 0:44:38publicly owned nuclear power station. There was not enough money

0:44:38 > 0:44:42in Wales to make that happen so, you know, we will probably be stuck for

0:44:42 > 0:44:46something which, even if it is not private, will be guaranteed at UK

0:44:46 > 0:44:55level. In many of the best sites have already been snapped up by

0:44:55 > 0:44:57internationally owned firms. That is not much left, really, for the

0:44:57 > 0:45:02public to get involved in for Welsh companies to get involved.

0:45:02 > 0:45:07What would your message be to politicians who say we need more

0:45:07 > 0:45:11tidal lagoons, even. Need to be generating the energy. As we could

0:45:11 > 0:45:15be, you know, we could be making the most of that.

0:45:15 > 0:45:19What would your message be? You need to think very carefully about what

0:45:19 > 0:45:22sorts of benefits you expect from the those so, yes, when you have

0:45:22 > 0:45:29big, new capital investments such as the lagoon or such, get lots of jobs

0:45:29 > 0:45:37while it is being built. Then, once it's built, they will be a few

0:45:37 > 0:45:39hundred jobs, maybe. The nuclear power station will have a few

0:45:39 > 0:45:42hundred jobs in it. The lagoon have a few dozen jobs looking after it,

0:45:42 > 0:45:51probably. So, all right, a few hundred jobs is important. Our

0:45:51 > 0:45:53research recently suggested that their appropriate moves a couple of

0:45:53 > 0:46:00thousand people working in it across Wales. Got a workforce of something

0:46:00 > 0:46:03around 1 million people is a couple of thousand is nothing. See would

0:46:03 > 0:46:06get the employment benefits in the long term that you might hope for.

0:46:06 > 0:46:12Some sectors, lagoon is one, give you the possibility of innovation

0:46:12 > 0:46:17and are indeed benefits which we might be at able to catch in Wales.

0:46:17 > 0:46:23Different from nuclear where all the Air India and all the IP is held

0:46:23 > 0:46:27outside the UK let alone Wales. So for lagoon you can imagine, tied

0:46:27 > 0:46:32lagoon could be persuaded to let an equity to the Welsh Government in

0:46:32 > 0:46:35return for some sort of financial assistance. In holding company, not

0:46:35 > 0:46:41this one. So if it was part owned by the Welsh Government or some other

0:46:41 > 0:46:49Welsh entity then you could see the possibility, of being a part of the

0:46:49 > 0:46:55cluster. The Iraqi number of opportunities that I think. But

0:46:55 > 0:47:02think ownership is key. Only some of this stuff and this capital is the

0:47:02 > 0:47:08first stage to exploiting those benefits.

0:47:08 > 0:47:14One of the other point I been reading of the last few days is Uber

0:47:14 > 0:47:24talking about since devolution, on the UK level, things have not

0:47:24 > 0:47:34differently.

0:47:35 > 0:47:40It is not necessarily by design. But I think a few things have coalesced

0:47:40 > 0:47:45and in Cardiff, as it was already, it was the most important city in

0:47:45 > 0:47:51Wales. And when you take a new institution which, because of the

0:47:51 > 0:47:57way the initial devolution act, had to take responsibility effectively

0:47:57 > 0:48:01from below. The UK Government did not give the Welsh Assembly

0:48:01 > 0:48:03Government much at the start under Assembly much to do. It became like

0:48:03 > 0:48:09a big local authority. So a decision floating at Cardiff and other

0:48:09 > 0:48:14places. If you combine that, with the devolution settlement, which is

0:48:14 > 0:48:23changing slowly, with a political context which is very insecure,

0:48:23 > 0:48:27which may be doesn't want power to go beyond Cardiff Bay once it comes

0:48:27 > 0:48:29down from Westminster or comes up. When you get a situation where, you

0:48:29 > 0:48:37can have a strong political call to Wales, and there was debate over

0:48:37 > 0:48:40where the Assembly should go and we did some work on this in the late

0:48:40 > 0:48:4390s about where we would put an Assembly in Cardiff. On top of that

0:48:43 > 0:48:48what you get is, I mean, I remember a similar discussion about where the

0:48:48 > 0:48:51new millennium Stadium should go. There are several options we were

0:48:51 > 0:48:54looking at. But it ended up in Cardiff. And when you lay on top of

0:48:54 > 0:49:05that a new, obviously museums and galleries, the site in Cardiff,

0:49:05 > 0:49:07organisations moving from North Cardiff, the periphery of Wales,

0:49:07 > 0:49:12North Cardiff, down to the centre of Wales in the centre of the square,

0:49:12 > 0:49:19and you lay top public investment on top of the strong economic

0:49:19 > 0:49:29infrastructure in the city, they tend to be in Cardiff. So you lay

0:49:29 > 0:49:35those things on top of what you have is, in where's me think of Wales as

0:49:35 > 0:49:40the country, it looks more like the UK than it does somewhere like

0:49:40 > 0:49:45Switzerland, which are separate financial and economic and political

0:49:45 > 0:49:47centres. Germany which is very strong Southern economic heart of

0:49:47 > 0:49:52Berlin and bond, the capital cities of recent times in the North. The

0:49:52 > 0:49:57US, game, Washington, New York, Los Angeles. We look like Paris and

0:49:57 > 0:50:04France the UK. That is the point. What does that do? You think, in

0:50:04 > 0:50:08Wales, does seem strange that to the North there is not a single national

0:50:08 > 0:50:18institution. Nothing north of the National library.

0:50:18 > 0:50:26Maybe the football Museum. We might get.But what does that do, do you

0:50:26 > 0:50:29think? The idea people, people in the North, who think, as you've been

0:50:29 > 0:50:32saying, it all goes down to goes down to the south.

0:50:32 > 0:50:36I have lots of arguments about this because there is a point of view

0:50:36 > 0:50:40that says that, Wales are so small that you have to put all your eggs

0:50:40 > 0:50:42in the Cardiff basket because that is the only way we can get

0:50:42 > 0:50:48visibility and get noticed. And then there is a kind of trend of thought

0:50:48 > 0:50:53that says that actually, spreading national institutions, spreading

0:50:53 > 0:50:55activity will generally around Wales is more important. Those things are

0:50:55 > 0:51:00very different to reconcile. It comes down to a value judgment on

0:51:00 > 0:51:03what I think it comes down to is whether you think it matters if

0:51:03 > 0:51:11Wales gets noticed or not. That is a very subtle thing because it doesn't

0:51:11 > 0:51:16matter if the London media talk about Wales? Doesn't matter if big

0:51:16 > 0:51:18factories, big investors around the world look around and don't notice

0:51:18 > 0:51:23doesn't matter if we're on various other world stages? My attitude has

0:51:23 > 0:51:25always been, if we get, domestic stuff right, from run the country

0:51:25 > 0:51:31properly, if we develop a functioning set of Welsh identities

0:51:31 > 0:51:35which we can genuinely sign up to in terms of... Because the Welsh are

0:51:35 > 0:51:43all different we can all do with the Scots seem to do. If you make that

0:51:43 > 0:51:45work can become confident and that would get noticed for own merits

0:51:45 > 0:51:51rather than trying to get noticed because of the flashes of our

0:51:51 > 0:51:53buildings, which are victimising Cardiff, when you look at it now

0:51:53 > 0:51:59underway Cardiff has developed, it has become a very generic property

0:51:59 > 0:52:02led development story. There's not much in Cardiff now that looks

0:52:02 > 0:52:06distinctive of different in terms of other cities in the UK. And those

0:52:06 > 0:52:11divisions, there has been debate obviously in the region and how that

0:52:11 > 0:52:16should work, it comes down to a value judgment. Economic theory,

0:52:16 > 0:52:19economic evidence won't really tell you which one works. Because

0:52:19 > 0:52:23countries are all different and you have two decide which one of those

0:52:23 > 0:52:27divisions you feel more akin to. Plenty to think about two with

0:52:27 > 0:52:30Professor Alvin Jones from Cardiff University. You give us had a torrid

0:52:30 > 0:52:33time of it recently both that a UK wide level and perhaps here in

0:52:33 > 0:52:38Wales, too. The British party will have extraordinary general meeting

0:52:38 > 0:52:41next week to discuss the position of the leader, Henry Bolton. He refused

0:52:41 > 0:52:46to quit last month despite being told to go by the party befuddling

0:52:46 > 0:52:53committee. Will things kick off again or will we enter a period of

0:52:53 > 0:52:58calm? Ukip's Wales and Welsh leader is Neil Hamilton. What we think of

0:52:58 > 0:53:01next week in what will happen to Henry Bolton who was on the Andrew

0:53:01 > 0:53:04Marr and grant this morning, defied Camille stand up to, he would try

0:53:04 > 0:53:11and stay on as leader. Do you think you can? It depends who

0:53:11 > 0:53:13turns up at this extraordinary general meeting in Birmingham. There

0:53:13 > 0:53:21are people who live in far-flung places you'll find it difficult to

0:53:21 > 0:53:29get there. Almost MEP, lots of branch chairman is, and members are

0:53:29 > 0:53:32against him. I don't see how we can survive and it is a great shame that

0:53:32 > 0:53:37he is continued. Why is him as delusional? He thinks

0:53:37 > 0:53:41he can survive by vote of the members but I don't think he is

0:53:41 > 0:53:47going to be successful in that boat. And it is most unfortunate that

0:53:47 > 0:53:54we've had this merry-go-round farce entirely because of his private life

0:53:54 > 0:53:55which he continues to launder public.

0:53:55 > 0:54:03Other than his private life, would you be happy with him or would you

0:54:03 > 0:54:08be happy? It is inconceivable. Because the

0:54:08 > 0:54:17leader measure of followers. And when all your elected members of

0:54:17 > 0:54:22Aberdeen stew, see what is left to lead.

0:54:22 > 0:54:28He would be your sixth in a year. Not quite.

0:54:28 > 0:54:33If you can't Nigel Farage a couple of times you are on five or six. It

0:54:33 > 0:54:35seems farcical that you are going to leader after leader after leader and

0:54:35 > 0:54:40doing nothing else, it seems. This is partly a function of the

0:54:40 > 0:54:42fact that Nigel Farage was a super dominant leader himself and didn't

0:54:42 > 0:54:47bring on any potential alternatives. Of another party gone through

0:54:47 > 0:54:49similar structures. Look at the Tories over the last 20 years. They

0:54:49 > 0:54:55had leader after leader in the early part of the century.

0:54:55 > 0:54:57Not quite at this rate. Nevertheless, the point is the same.

0:54:57 > 0:55:01I think that, after next Saturday, would have somebody like Gerard

0:55:01 > 0:55:09Batten who is the MEP for London and has been there since 2004, has been

0:55:09 > 0:55:11the Ukip party member since the party was founded.

0:55:11 > 0:55:16We need a team leader now. It is not just the leadership, to the point of

0:55:16 > 0:55:18Ukip. Now that you've got Brexit, peoples into question why is there

0:55:18 > 0:55:23need for Ukip and that's why we're seeing this turn of leadership,

0:55:23 > 0:55:26because the bizarre to it? It is certainly true that lobby

0:55:26 > 0:55:29blood left Ukip thinking the job was done after the referendum. I think

0:55:29 > 0:55:32that is a mistake, as you know, in elections in Wales in the general

0:55:32 > 0:55:38election we still have a full programme of domestic policies as

0:55:38 > 0:55:41well. We are very different from all the other parties and keeping within

0:55:41 > 0:55:44the party will provide the cosy Cardiff Bay consensus. The only

0:55:44 > 0:55:52party who will oppose expansion of the Assembly, want tough controls of

0:55:52 > 0:55:57immigration, who once significant cuts to the aid Budget, he wants to

0:55:57 > 0:56:00democratise the health service, the only party in Wales who believes in

0:56:00 > 0:56:02grammar schools. There are lots of things that you could stand for

0:56:02 > 0:56:06quite apart from Brexit. At the Assembly election you got 13%

0:56:06 > 0:56:12of the vote. Last year were down to 2% of the vote in Wales a law

0:56:12 > 0:56:17student bossing everyone of the 32 constituencies where you stood. You

0:56:17 > 0:56:22may well list the things you want to achieve the people maybe aren't

0:56:22 > 0:56:24listening. That is certainly true. We found it

0:56:24 > 0:56:29difficult against all the baffling noise in the background from Ukip

0:56:29 > 0:56:32central to get our message across. But I think, with some effective

0:56:32 > 0:56:38leadership, we can show, and at the Wales is going to be the shop window

0:56:38 > 0:56:42after the MEPs disappear next year, because the Cardiff Assembly is the

0:56:42 > 0:56:45only parliamentary institution which you'll then be represented. I think

0:56:45 > 0:56:48we showed, day in and day out in the Assembly, how effective we can be as

0:56:48 > 0:56:51a professional group. That is the message read more

0:56:51 > 0:56:57generally. What kind of a I shown to the rest of Ukip? One member walked

0:56:57 > 0:57:03with the coach were relevant, and others not joining the group, Gareth

0:57:03 > 0:57:05Bennett been banned from speaking for a while because of some of the

0:57:05 > 0:57:10comments he made. As a shop window, it is not ideal,

0:57:10 > 0:57:14is it? I don't agree with you about that. Nathan Gill took his bat

0:57:14 > 0:57:19because was frustrated ambition for the want of my job as the leader, my

0:57:19 > 0:57:21colleagues voted for me instead. You couldn't keep within the fold,

0:57:21 > 0:57:28could you? He resigned. I didn't force. He chose to become an

0:57:28 > 0:57:31independent of the remaining eight Ukip member. Mark success obviously

0:57:31 > 0:57:34saw his future more the Conservative Party. The Tories don't want him.

0:57:34 > 0:57:41They won't allow them to join the party somebody was going to say the

0:57:41 > 0:57:43-- save his skin that way but he's been sapping mistaken.

0:57:43 > 0:57:46I don't know whether Mark reckless would have taken the decision that

0:57:46 > 0:57:50he did if he had realised the Conservative Party would not allow

0:57:50 > 0:57:53him to join. He naturally assumed that he would be able to be a

0:57:53 > 0:57:58Conservative candidate. The point I'm trying to make is, you

0:57:58 > 0:58:01are saying the party in the Assembly in Wales would be a shop window and

0:58:01 > 0:58:05the point I'm making is, other than petty squabbling, comments which are

0:58:05 > 0:58:11deemed to be, you know, not what should be set in the Assembly,

0:58:11 > 0:58:15there's not much to be said about what Ukip has achieved.

0:58:15 > 0:58:18I don't agree at all about Gareth Bennett and what Gareth Bennett said

0:58:18 > 0:58:21in the Assembly struck a chord I think that many people in the wider

0:58:21 > 0:58:25community. That maybe but it shows that Ukip is

0:58:25 > 0:58:30breaking the Cardiff Bay consensus. And we will go on breaking that

0:58:30 > 0:58:33consensus as well. Showing that we're the only party

0:58:33 > 0:58:36that poses political correctness in all its forms. We heard Henry Bolton

0:58:36 > 0:58:40this morning saying that Ukip, over the past year, has lost hundreds of

0:58:40 > 0:58:44members every month on a UK level. Is that something you are seeing in

0:58:44 > 0:58:49Wales as well? It isn't, actually. Wellesley fight in a domestic

0:58:49 > 0:58:53political conflict. He was appointed as well because we are in the

0:58:53 > 0:58:57Assembly on a feed every civil day, articulating the feelings and views

0:58:57 > 0:59:01of people who are not represented by the other parties. So this is what I

0:59:01 > 0:59:04mean by saying that Ukip will be the shop window in Wales which looks out

0:59:04 > 0:59:08from the rest of the United Kingdom. It is very concerned, maybe, that

0:59:08 > 0:59:12the main opportunity for Ukip now will come from a failure of Brexit?

0:59:12 > 0:59:16One thing you don't really want to see is a failure of Brexit.

0:59:16 > 0:59:19I certainly don't want to see a failure of Brexit. But isn't that

0:59:19 > 0:59:25the main way back for Ukip on the UK level.

0:59:25 > 0:59:28I think there was a campaign for a second referendum it would lead to

0:59:28 > 0:59:32an immediate change. Of course there will be lots of details on the we

0:59:32 > 0:59:39would be very keen to ensure is not going to, by the back door, bring us

0:59:39 > 0:59:43Brussels back in the game. Weird to see the future for Ukip in a

0:59:43 > 0:59:45domestic United Kingdom and the Welsh context and I believe that

0:59:45 > 0:59:49there a real scope for Ukip because we are the only party.

0:59:49 > 0:59:56When you look Brexit only see things like the Treasury forecast saying

0:59:56 > 0:59:59that a hard Brexit could bring Wales 9.5% worse off than it would

0:59:59 > 1:00:04otherwise have been, doesn't worry you at all about what might be

1:00:04 > 1:00:05happening? The Treasury is a haunt of

1:00:05 > 1:00:07remainders. There has been manoeuvres against the Prime

1:00:07 > 1:00:12Minister. You talk about Ukip been divided,

1:00:12 > 1:00:17look at the Cabinet and they are squabbling like rats in a sack. On

1:00:17 > 1:00:20something which really matters, the future of Britain as an independent

1:00:20 > 1:00:23nation. We don't have those couples inside Ukip on matters of policy.

1:00:23 > 1:00:29All of our problems ultimately go back to personalities.

1:00:29 > 1:00:33But on the policy issues we are absolutely united on the need for an

1:00:33 > 1:00:35independent Britain.Very quickly then, you'd think after Saturday

1:00:35 > 1:00:40will be there, you'll be voting for Bolton to be out.

1:00:40 > 1:00:42I will be voting against Henry Bolton and so will my colleagues.

1:00:42 > 1:00:46Thank you very much for coming in. We will see how that goes. That is

1:00:46 > 1:00:52it from us. We will take a short break next week but we are back in a

1:00:52 > 1:00:56fortnight. Wales lives will be here Wednesday at 10:30pm and you can

1:00:56 > 1:01:01always follow us on Twitter. For now, that is all from

1:01:01 > 1:01:04always follow us on Twitter. For now, that is all from me.

1:01:04 > 1:01:05university.

1:01:05 > 1:01:07I said how old is your son?

1:01:07 > 1:01:08She said he hasn't been born yet.

1:01:08 > 1:01:10On that note, that's all we have time for.

1:01:10 > 1:01:13Thank you very much and thanks to all of my guests.

1:01:17 > 1:01:24Welcome back. A few minutes ago we were talking about plans for

1:01:24 > 1:01:30renationalisation, something which they think is a good vote winning

1:01:30 > 1:01:37policy in these times. Are they right?Nationalisation had a boom in

1:01:37 > 1:01:41popularity. It never went out of favour. Since the bailouts of rail

1:01:41 > 1:01:44companies, since the appalling things which happen to people who

1:01:44 > 1:01:54have to get a train every day, never mind just the south-east, it has

1:01:54 > 1:02:02been a nightmare and costs are ratcheting up. Even the water

1:02:02 > 1:02:05companies are not opposing it. I think they are pushing at an open

1:02:05 > 1:02:12door and it is a worthwhile thing for them to do.John McDonnell says

1:02:12 > 1:02:17it can be done at absolutely no cost you would have an asset on your

1:02:17 > 1:02:26government books, is that realistic? No, that is the aspect of it. I can

1:02:26 > 1:02:33see the political logic. That is the aspect I find most confusing. This

1:02:33 > 1:02:37argument that Parliament rather than the market dictates the price at

1:02:37 > 1:02:41which the acids is bought, the signal is not just people who are in

1:02:41 > 1:02:46those industries, the signal list to all other investors in just about

1:02:46 > 1:02:51everything else. If you start with certain sectors, what will be

1:02:51 > 1:02:54nationalised next? The impact that then has on people who are investing

1:02:54 > 1:02:59money in the UK is simply a dawning realisation that what they have,

1:02:59 > 1:03:04what they own, what they paid for might be stolen or might be

1:03:04 > 1:03:08discounted.Labour were fairly clear in their manifesto, they talked

1:03:08 > 1:03:14about the National Grid, water, rail and the Royal Mail, nothing else.As

1:03:14 > 1:03:18someone who has been paying attention to what John McDonnell and

1:03:18 > 1:03:23Seamus Milne think, I will take their evidence of what they have

1:03:23 > 1:03:26written and said over the last 30 years rather than what they are

1:03:26 > 1:03:33trying to do now to win an election. I would not try and extrapolate what

1:03:33 > 1:03:38Labour policy would be over what she must have said, he has only been

1:03:38 > 1:03:43their communications guide for a few years, before that he was a Guardian

1:03:43 > 1:03:47columnist.I'm judging people on their record of what they have said

1:03:47 > 1:03:50to Andrew Marr, what they have written and what John McDonnell have

1:03:50 > 1:03:58argued for. I simply question whether we should accept their

1:03:58 > 1:04:03guarantees when they are trying to bargain their way into power.

1:04:03 > 1:04:07Listen, nobody, it is something which only happens to this lot of

1:04:07 > 1:04:11Labour leaders, that if people cannot critique the policy they

1:04:11 > 1:04:14suggest, then critique what they perceive to be the nefarious under

1:04:14 > 1:04:23policy. The truth is, when we talk about privatising industries we used

1:04:23 > 1:04:27to talk about that, we never talked about the outrageous bailouts they

1:04:27 > 1:04:31would need, we never talked about what they would do to actual costs,

1:04:31 > 1:04:37we just talked about this in terms of principle, do you want this

1:04:37 > 1:04:42privatised with efficiency or nationalised?There problems with

1:04:42 > 1:04:45some things that now Margaret Thatcher would not say that was the

1:04:45 > 1:04:50original intention. However, she and those around her were completely

1:04:50 > 1:04:54clear and explicit about that they were prepared to privatise almost

1:04:54 > 1:05:01everything. They were unambiguous. The fairest possible reading of the

1:05:01 > 1:05:05way Thatcher went about it is she did not know how bad it would be.

1:05:05 > 1:05:09She went into privatisation with the explicit agenda of more British

1:05:09 > 1:05:14people owning shares in industries and when she went into it, 40% of

1:05:14 > 1:05:20people own shares, 12 years later 12% did.We will need to leave it

1:05:20 > 1:05:21there and move on.

1:05:21 > 1:05:24The charity Oxfam has said it was "dismayed by what happened"

1:05:24 > 1:05:26after the accusations of sexual exploitation by its aid workers

1:05:26 > 1:05:29and now the government has said it's going to get tough.

1:05:29 > 1:05:32I'm going to afford them the opportunity to talk to me tomorrow,

1:05:32 > 1:05:37but I'm broke clear, it does not matter if you have got a

1:05:37 > 1:05:40whistle-blower hotline, it does not matter if you have got good

1:05:40 > 1:05:44safeguarding practices in place, if the moral leadership at the top of

1:05:44 > 1:05:49the organisation is not there, then we cannot have you as a partner.

1:05:49 > 1:05:53That was Penny Mordaunt talking specifically about Oxfam against

1:05:53 > 1:05:57whom there have been allegations this week. This could have

1:05:57 > 1:06:01implications for the aid sector generally?Yes, and that is what

1:06:01 > 1:06:05Penny Mordaunt said that donors would be put off by the likes of

1:06:05 > 1:06:11giving to Oxfam because they

1:06:15 > 1:06:17giving to Oxfam because they have no idea where their money is being used

1:06:17 > 1:06:20at the end of it. The thought that your good hard earned cash could be

1:06:20 > 1:06:23subsidising Oxfam executives sexual peccadilloes, at -- abusing the

1:06:23 > 1:06:34people they are supposed to be helping is not good. Penny Mordaunt

1:06:34 > 1:06:39said we should all have done more. Where this seems to be going as who

1:06:39 > 1:06:44knew what? Furthermore, who was happy to cover up what for the

1:06:44 > 1:06:48greater good? If you shine a spotlight on abuse will it kill off

1:06:48 > 1:06:53the Holborn I'm concept of international aid.Oxfam does a lot

1:06:53 > 1:06:57of good around the world.Huge amounts of good. Why would you want

1:06:57 > 1:07:01to kill off a productive good charity because of some horrendous

1:07:01 > 1:07:07abuse going on? The political damage for the government and we need to be

1:07:07 > 1:07:13very careful, there are parallels with for example the northern Asian

1:07:13 > 1:07:19sexual grooming scandal. How much was a blind eye turned to these

1:07:19 > 1:07:23politically sensitive subject so the greater good, for example racial

1:07:23 > 1:07:29harmony, was not damaged? That will be huge thing to unpick.Tom was

1:07:29 > 1:07:35talking about the damage of donors who donate to charities but defeat,

1:07:35 > 1:07:41the government, committed huge amount of

1:07:42 > 1:07:46amount of money -- DFID. Not everyone is happy about this. Will

1:07:46 > 1:07:49this be used as a debate about international aid?I think it is

1:07:49 > 1:07:58being used as a way to reopen debate. It should be remembered that

1:07:58 > 1:08:00sexual predators use organisations. They used boarding schools, the

1:08:00 > 1:08:06church and aid programmes. They use places with high vulnerability to

1:08:06 > 1:08:10the sexual predators. Notably says let's close down the church. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:16mistaken to say this is a taint on the entire aid industry when the aid

1:08:16 > 1:08:20industry by its nature would attract some predatory behaviour. It is much

1:08:20 > 1:08:24more important to have the conversation about how

1:08:24 > 1:08:27institutionally you prevent and deal with the predatory behaviour rather

1:08:27 > 1:08:31than turn a spotlight on the aid industry than they should we have

1:08:31 > 1:08:36any aid which is the wrong question and has a completely obvious answer,

1:08:36 > 1:08:40yes we should.But if that is right, if we extend that level of

1:08:40 > 1:08:47understanding to Oxfam because it does

1:08:47 > 1:08:50does good work, why is that not extended to the controversial

1:08:50 > 1:08:51Presidents club a few weeks ago which is now effectively shutdown

1:08:51 > 1:08:56and people have given the money back?Iain, the Presidents club,

1:08:56 > 1:09:00there are people in Oxfam who are not using sex workers unlike the

1:09:00 > 1:09:05Presidents club.There were people at that dinner who were not engaged

1:09:05 > 1:09:10in the activity that the FDA accused a few people.But they were all

1:09:10 > 1:09:20sitting there in an all male dinner -- the FT accused people.I am not

1:09:20 > 1:09:23defending people.We cannot finish the programme without returning to

1:09:23 > 1:09:29the topic we are always talking about and we have always been

1:09:29 > 1:09:35talking about, Brexit.

1:09:36 > 1:09:40talking about, Brexit. We will hear from some other Cabinet ministers.

1:09:40 > 1:09:45Explain the choreography of the talks.The government have come

1:09:45 > 1:09:52under pressure for not saying enough about the decisions. Boris Johnson

1:09:52 > 1:09:56made it clear he would make his own speech on the case for a liberal

1:09:56 > 1:10:01Brexit, whatever that ends up meaning. Now we learn today that it

1:10:01 > 1:10:07will not just be Boris, it will be a whole is of other Cabinet ministers

1:10:07 > 1:10:10making a useful contribution in terms of speeches, David Davis,

1:10:10 > 1:10:14David Liddington, Liam Fox and Theresa May finally at the end of

1:10:14 > 1:10:21this long list.Not Philip Hammond or any of the arch Remainers?They

1:10:21 > 1:10:25don't do Brexit central jobs. You expect the Brexit ministers

1:10:25 > 1:10:30themselves to do that.I do not agree with that at all.What is

1:10:30 > 1:10:36interesting is, were they always going to do this or has the entirety

1:10:36 > 1:10:39of government, now the dog is being whacked by the tail, just to make

1:10:39 > 1:10:48Boris Johnson... They have to give him great cover by surrounding him

1:10:48 > 1:10:54by others also making speeches.What a shocking waste of parliamentary

1:10:54 > 1:11:00time this is?At least we are hearing from someone.The pattern

1:11:00 > 1:11:04with speech-making is somebody comes out and says something and then

1:11:04 > 1:11:08Number Ten immediately slapped them down. You cannot listen to the thing

1:11:08 > 1:11:12you think you are listening to because you have no idea whether it

1:11:12 > 1:11:16will be contradicted the day after. Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

1:11:16 > 1:11:20he said we would only diverged moderately from the EU and then

1:11:20 > 1:11:26Number Ten contradicted him.And the idea that Philip Hammond is not a

1:11:26 > 1:11:29key Brexit Minister, the impact of this is predominantly economic and

1:11:29 > 1:11:33he is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Of course he is a Brexit

1:11:33 > 1:11:37Minister.They are quite worried about the Remainers and they are

1:11:37 > 1:11:41really worried about Jacob Rees-Mogg and the hard Brexit faction who

1:11:41 > 1:11:46could really bring down the Prime Minister tomorrow if they wanted to.

1:11:46 > 1:11:49And at some point, when the Prime Minister fleshes out in a little bit

1:11:49 > 1:11:57more detail her vision, she cannot keep Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:57 > 1:12:00happy. Both of them have been vocal this week and then the serious

1:12:00 > 1:12:05problem in the Tory party?Someone will have to compromise at some

1:12:05 > 1:12:08point. The hardest Brexiteers have to get real and they have to realise

1:12:08 > 1:12:13they have most of what they wanted. If you said almost two years ago

1:12:13 > 1:12:17that the UK would definitely be leaving all the key institutions of

1:12:17 > 1:12:20the EU, definitely be leaving the single market, definitely be leaving

1:12:20 > 1:12:24the customs union with a grey area at around the customs agreement,

1:12:24 > 1:12:30that is something that I think a lot of pro-Brexit people have accepted

1:12:30 > 1:12:35and pocketed as a good result.But the Jacob Rees-Mogg faction of the

1:12:35 > 1:12:39party sound very unhappy about the direction of travel and they are

1:12:39 > 1:12:43complaining about all sorts of things?But what is difficult to

1:12:43 > 1:12:47work out is how much of that is people positioning to shift the

1:12:47 > 1:12:54argument within Cabinet, outliers for an argument, so there is not too

1:12:54 > 1:12:59much of a compromise. It is really all a function of there not being

1:12:59 > 1:13:05leadership and they're not being someone in charge of the process.

1:13:05 > 1:13:11This is going to have to be, we have to confront this as a country at

1:13:11 > 1:13:15some point and make a decision and get on with it one way or another.

1:13:15 > 1:13:21Well when they do, I am sure you will be here to talk about it.

1:13:21 > 1:13:23That's all for today.

1:13:23 > 1:13:25Parliament's now on recess so I'm afraid there's no

1:13:25 > 1:13:28Daily or Sunday Politics next week, however, do join me again a week

1:13:28 > 1:13:30on Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:30 > 1:13:35Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:35 > 1:13:35Until then, bye-bye.