25/02/2018

0:00:38 > 0:00:42Morning everyone, I'm Sarah Smith and and this

0:00:42 > 0:00:43is the Sunday Politics...

0:00:43 > 0:00:46Bringing you up to speed on all the political comings and goings

0:00:46 > 0:00:47in Westminster and beyond.

0:00:47 > 0:00:51Coming up in today's programme:

0:00:51 > 0:00:53Having knocked Cabinet heads together Theresa May

0:00:53 > 0:00:55prepares - finally - to lay out her vision for Brexit.

0:00:55 > 0:00:58But can she keep her whole party on side?

0:00:58 > 0:00:59We'll be speaking to a former Tory leader.

0:01:00 > 0:01:04Waiting in the wings is this man.

0:01:04 > 0:01:07But can Jeremy Corbyn unite the opposing forces in his own party

0:01:07 > 0:01:10and convince the electorate he'd do a better job of Brexit?

0:01:10 > 0:01:13The forthcoming local elections in England ought to give us

0:01:13 > 0:01:15a clue about the fortunes of the two main parties.

0:01:25 > 0:01:26Later in

0:01:26 > 0:01:28really do more for less?

0:01:35 > 0:01:39All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:39 > 0:01:40All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:40 > 0:01:42And as usual, we've got three Westminster insiders who will take

0:01:42 > 0:01:45us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.

0:01:45 > 0:01:48Today I'm joined by Iain Dale, Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

0:01:48 > 0:01:51Next month, Theresa May will begin formal negotiations

0:01:51 > 0:01:53with her European counterparts on what the future EU-UK

0:01:53 > 0:01:57relationship should look like.

0:01:57 > 0:02:02This week, she will lay out her vision of life after Brexit

0:02:02 > 0:02:05and she'll declare that our "best days really do lie ahead of us".

0:02:05 > 0:02:07EU leaders beg to differ though, and have already taken

0:02:07 > 0:02:08some pre-emptive swipes.

0:02:08 > 0:02:11But, while the talk is likely to get tough in Brussels,

0:02:11 > 0:02:13the key battles could be played out closer to home.

0:02:15 > 0:02:19It's known as the Brexit war committee, but the smiles suggested

0:02:19 > 0:02:21an outbreak of peace among the Cabinet's big beasts.

0:02:21 > 0:02:24For now, at least.

0:02:25 > 0:02:28They'd arrived at Chequers, the Prime Minister's country

0:02:28 > 0:02:31retreat, on Thursday afternoon, to try and agree a common position

0:02:31 > 0:02:33for the next round of Brexit talks.

0:02:35 > 0:02:40Eight hours later, ministers were apparently still smiling,

0:02:40 > 0:02:43having agreed on something called ambitious managed divergences

0:02:43 > 0:02:45and future trade with the EU.

0:02:45 > 0:02:47One of those present said the Prime Minister

0:02:47 > 0:02:50had played a blinder, but will it be enough to hold

0:02:50 > 0:02:52the whole party together?

0:02:52 > 0:02:55Earlier in the week, a letter from the pro-Brexit

0:02:55 > 0:02:59European reform group found its way into the newspapers,

0:02:59 > 0:03:02politely reminding the Prime Minister that when we leave,

0:03:02 > 0:03:06nothing but full regulatory autonomy will be good enough.

0:03:06 > 0:03:09But it's Remain-minded Tories who could throw a real

0:03:09 > 0:03:10spanner in the works.

0:03:10 > 0:03:15Conservative MP Anna Soubry announced on Thursday she had...

0:03:21 > 0:03:24"Tabled a new amendment to the trade bill to force the government to form

0:03:24 > 0:03:26a customs union with the EU".

0:03:26 > 0:03:2827 other EU countries also need to be won over.

0:03:28 > 0:03:30Brexit Secretary David Davis was in Vienna on Tuesday,

0:03:30 > 0:03:32colourfully describing what Brexit will not look like.

0:03:32 > 0:03:37They fear that Brexit will lead to an Anglo-Saxon race

0:03:37 > 0:03:40to the bottom, with Britain plunged into a Mad Max style world borrowed

0:03:40 > 0:03:44from dystopian fiction.

0:03:44 > 0:03:49These fears about a race to the bottom are based on nothing.

0:03:49 > 0:03:51But the EU are not convinced.

0:03:51 > 0:03:54European Council President Donald Tusk arguing that the UK

0:03:54 > 0:03:56was still trying to cherry pick its future

0:03:56 > 0:03:58relationship with the EU.

0:03:58 > 0:04:02I'm afraid that the UK position today is based on pure illusion.

0:04:04 > 0:04:06Until now, Jeremy Corbyn has played his Brexit

0:04:06 > 0:04:10cards close to his chest.

0:04:10 > 0:04:14He may begin to reveal his hand in a major speech tomorrow and this

0:04:14 > 0:04:18week he unusually raised Brexit at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:04:18 > 0:04:21This government isn't on the road to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

0:04:21 > 0:04:23it's on the road to nowhere.

0:04:23 > 0:04:27Can I congratulate the right honourable gentleman,

0:04:27 > 0:04:29because normally he stands up every week and asks me

0:04:29 > 0:04:33to sign a blank cheque.

0:04:33 > 0:04:35And I know he likes cheques, but, really, that is terribly...

0:04:35 > 0:04:39That was a reference to reports that the Labour leader had held

0:04:39 > 0:04:43meetings with the former Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

0:04:43 > 0:04:47Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports with a social media video,

0:04:47 > 0:04:49in which he said rather cryptically, "Change is coming to

0:04:49 > 0:04:51the newspaper industry".

0:04:51 > 0:04:55Publishing these ridiculous smears that have been refuted by Czech

0:04:55 > 0:04:58officials shows just how worried the media bosses are at the prospect

0:04:58 > 0:04:59of a Labour government.

0:04:59 > 0:05:03They are right to be.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

0:05:07 > 0:05:09about the allegations, saying...

0:05:19 > 0:05:23But it wasn't all Brexit and brush passes.

0:05:23 > 0:05:26The Prime Minister began the week announcing a review

0:05:26 > 0:05:27into higher education.

0:05:27 > 0:05:29We now have one of the most expensive systems of university

0:05:29 > 0:05:31tuition in the world.

0:05:31 > 0:05:33Theresa May wants to demonstrate her government isn't

0:05:33 > 0:05:38simply defined by Brexit, but navigating the complications

0:05:38 > 0:05:41of leaving the EU is an all consuming task.

0:05:41 > 0:05:43If she can avoid it consuming her career, that

0:05:43 > 0:05:46could be her greatest achievement.

0:05:47 > 0:05:50Steve, Kate and Iain were watching that with me.

0:05:53 > 0:05:57Let's chew over what has been happening this week. People saying

0:05:57 > 0:06:01that meeting at Chequers, the Prime Minister played a blinder and got

0:06:01 > 0:06:04the Cabinet to agree. Outside the Cabinet, it looks like she is

0:06:04 > 0:06:11assaulted on all sides by pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

0:06:11 > 0:06:15the EU, it's not as easy as all that?It is never going to be easy

0:06:15 > 0:06:18for a Prime Minister who hasn't got a Parliamentary majority. She is

0:06:18 > 0:06:22very resilient. Whenever she's knocked down, she bounces back

0:06:22 > 0:06:26again. I think she has had quite a reasonable week this week, starting

0:06:26 > 0:06:29off on the front foot and tuition fees and ending the week with the

0:06:29 > 0:06:32meeting at Chequers. I think a lot of commentators thought it was going

0:06:32 > 0:06:37to be a disaster, that they would agree on the way board. The proof in

0:06:37 > 0:06:41the pudding will be on what she says in the speech on Friday. We have

0:06:41 > 0:06:44Jeremy Corbyn mandates and effectively she has to up with

0:06:44 > 0:06:47probably quite a lot more detail than she has done in the past. I

0:06:47 > 0:06:51think they have the basis for that now.Kate, we've talked a lot on

0:06:51 > 0:06:54this programme about the arguments within the Cabinet but now it looks

0:06:54 > 0:07:00like the focus is now on the wider Conservative Party. You have

0:07:00 > 0:07:03probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry saying they want to stay in the

0:07:03 > 0:07:07customs union, a letter from pro except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

0:07:07 > 0:07:11saying they want full regulatory divergence. Which group is likely to

0:07:11 > 0:07:16win the day?I think what is most interesting this week will be Jeremy

0:07:16 > 0:07:20Corbyn's speech on Monday. That comes before Theresa May's speech on

0:07:20 > 0:07:25Friday. That will help tip those two sites, as it were, and we will see

0:07:25 > 0:07:29what will happen with the customs union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

0:07:29 > 0:07:33say he would like to stay in a customs union that is likely to make

0:07:33 > 0:07:37the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

0:07:37 > 0:07:41want to back and push for a customs union feel like they have more

0:07:41 > 0:07:49control over that. Whether it is likely not promote we are yet to

0:07:49 > 0:07:52see. If Labour is shifting its customs union position that much,

0:07:52 > 0:07:55that gives Tory MPs a lot more strength in the House of Commons

0:07:55 > 0:07:58because the government has already pushed back a vote on the customs

0:07:58 > 0:08:04union because they are worried about what is going happen.Those pro

0:08:04 > 0:08:07remain Tories on the Labour Party believe they have the Parliamentary

0:08:07 > 0:08:10arithmetic to force a defeat on the government over the customs union,

0:08:10 > 0:08:17are they right about that?Certainly in theory they are right. There are

0:08:17 > 0:08:22enough Conservative MPs and if the opposition vote for this, the

0:08:22 > 0:08:26government faces a defeat with profound consequences. We will not

0:08:26 > 0:08:29know probably until the moment when the vote takes place. It will be a

0:08:29 > 0:08:34moment of one of these great Parliamentary dramas, where there

0:08:34 > 0:08:38will be huge pressure on Tory MPs not to go along with this and say,

0:08:38 > 0:08:42you are in alliance with Jeremy Corbyn and so on. We won't know

0:08:42 > 0:08:46until the vote but in theory they have the numbers. It would be a game

0:08:46 > 0:08:49changer if this amendment was carried.This is fascinating. It

0:08:49 > 0:08:52means the power has gone to the house of parliament and has left

0:08:52 > 0:08:56number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary Benn described this as a backbencher

0:08:56 > 0:08:59's parliament because the government doesn't have a majority. Is that

0:08:59 > 0:09:05where the authority lies now?In some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

0:09:05 > 0:09:08about the Parliamentary arithmetic because some will die with the

0:09:08 > 0:09:12Conservatives, and we will hear from one later, Frank Field. There are a

0:09:12 > 0:09:16group of them. I wonder about the numbers on the Tory benches, there

0:09:16 > 0:09:22is a hard-core group of about ten or a dozen that you think might well

0:09:22 > 0:09:25support Anna Soubry's amendment but I don't really see it going much

0:09:25 > 0:09:29beyond that. But you are right, it will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

0:09:29 > 0:09:34it came to the government were defeated on this, then we are in

0:09:34 > 0:09:36uncharted waters, because the government could actually make it a

0:09:36 > 0:09:40vote of confidence. It would be very unusual to do one on an amendment to

0:09:40 > 0:09:43a bill but it is possible, or they could call a vote of confidence that

0:09:43 > 0:09:50would put Anna Soubry and all the others in

0:09:50 > 0:09:52others in a bit a tricky position. If they did vote against the

0:09:52 > 0:09:55government on a vote of confidence, they would have to be deselected.We

0:09:55 > 0:09:57will talk about that throughout the programme.

0:09:57 > 0:09:59Listening to all that is the former Conservative leader,

0:09:59 > 0:10:01and leading Brexit campaigner, Iain Duncan Smith.

0:10:01 > 0:10:05Welcome to the programme. Do you accept there is a significant chance

0:10:05 > 0:10:07the government could be defeated on a customs union in the House of

0:10:07 > 0:10:12Commons question when you don't have a majority there is a chance to be

0:10:12 > 0:10:15defeated on anything.I love the way the media looks at this cost would

0:10:15 > 0:10:19take a pace back, it's a government that won the election and didn't get

0:10:19 > 0:10:21an overall majority so it means almost anything anyone is upset

0:10:21 > 0:10:25about could cause a problem for the government, fact of life. Brexit is

0:10:25 > 0:10:29just one, it's a very big issue but one of those, there has been other

0:10:29 > 0:10:32issues and there will be on the issue is following through.It

0:10:32 > 0:10:37matters to you whether we are in a customs union with the EU?Lots of

0:10:37 > 0:10:42things deeply matter to me, beyond Brexit. But yes. I think the key

0:10:42 > 0:10:45thing is not what I believe but the Prime Minister has been pretty clear

0:10:45 > 0:10:49about this from the word go, way before the election, during the

0:10:49 > 0:10:52election importantly and even subsequently she has made it very

0:10:52 > 0:10:55clear we are taking back control, leaving the customs union, single

0:10:55 > 0:11:00market, and at the same time making sure we get outside of the remit of

0:11:00 > 0:11:07the court of justice. She has been clear about this.

0:11:37 > 0:11:40Let's pick a bit of that. In her Lancaster House speech she said she

0:11:40 > 0:11:43wanted us to have a customs agreement with the EU, not a customs

0:11:43 > 0:11:45union but customs agreement. This controversial amendment Anna Soubry

0:11:45 > 0:11:47another Superdome says they want an agreement that enables the UK to be

0:11:47 > 0:11:50able to participate in a customs union with the EU, is there space

0:11:50 > 0:11:53for that?It depends what the detail is. The government set it out quite

0:11:53 > 0:11:55rightly on having a proper free trade arrang ement. You can describe

0:11:55 > 0:11:57a free-trade arrangement in all different ways but a free-trade

0:11:57 > 0:12:00arrangement is about us having a clear ability to sell-out goods into

0:12:00 > 0:12:02the European Union them to sell us without artificial trade barriers

0:12:02 > 0:12:04that will require arrangements that out customs arrangements. The big

0:12:04 > 0:12:06them to sell us without artificial trade barriers and that will require

0:12:06 > 0:12:08arrangements that out customs arrangements. The behind having a

0:12:08 > 0:12:10customs union and being outside a free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

0:12:10 > 0:12:13of the graces in the global economy in the next two years, we will be

0:12:13 > 0:12:17free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you to make trade

0:12:17 > 0:12:18arrangements with America, Australia, India, where ever we want

0:12:18 > 0:12:21to, where 90% of the growth is in the global economy in the next two

0:12:21 > 0:12:24years, we will be free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you

0:12:24 > 0:12:27agree do that and therefore we would have to what the European Union to

0:12:27 > 0:12:29what the European certainly be outvoted endlessly. This is about

0:12:29 > 0:12:32where does the power light and we would almost certainly be outvoted

0:12:32 > 0:12:35endlessly. This is about where does the with the rest of the world in a

0:12:35 > 0:12:36moment but exactly what you describe, the free-trade arrangement

0:12:36 > 0:12:40with no tariffs with the EUand the freedom to make those deals, that is

0:12:40 > 0:12:42what the EU called cherry picking? What they really called cherry

0:12:42 > 0:12:44picking is this arrangement we are talking about now, a customs union.

0:12:44 > 0:12:46They have been pretty clear about this. They said it is not

0:12:46 > 0:12:52acceptable. Let's look at it from the European Union to make those

0:12:52 > 0:12:55agreements?I want to get into the detail on free-trade deals with the

0:12:55 > 0:12:57rest of the world in a moment but exactly what you describe, the

0:12:57 > 0:13:00free-trade arrangement with no tariffs with the EU and the freedom

0:13:00 > 0:13:02to make those deals, that is what the EU called cherry picking?What

0:13:02 > 0:13:04they really called cherry picking is this arrangement we are talking

0:13:04 > 0:13:07about now, a customs union. They have been pretty clear about this.

0:13:07 > 0:13:09They said it is not acceptable. Let's look at it from the European

0:13:09 > 0:13:12Union's standpoint. We constantly look at what the UK once. You use is

0:13:12 > 0:13:14certainly not going to agree going into a customs union where we will

0:13:14 > 0:13:18then have over any future agreement, so we will outvote all 27 because we

0:13:18 > 0:13:19that would depend on the agreement. ...That would depend on the

0:13:19 > 0:13:22agreement. The EU wants would have enormous power against them, they an

0:13:22 > 0:13:24agreement, we would have enormous power against them, they won't agree

0:13:24 > 0:13:27because it is not in their interests to do I think what is more in

0:13:27 > 0:13:30arrangement. There are lots of countries that are already breaking

0:13:30 > 0:13:31ranks with the commission about this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

0:13:31 > 0:13:34have to have a free-trade arrangement.They are not on that

0:13:34 > 0:13:36yet, they are still on the implementation phase. When it comes

0:13:36 > 0:13:39to free trade, I am very, very certain that they will want to make

0:13:39 > 0:13:41an arrangement with us because it is in their interests, arguably more

0:13:41 > 0:13:44than us. , they want a free-trade arrangement. There are lots of

0:13:44 > 0:13:46countries that are already breaking ranks with the commission about

0:13:46 > 0:13:48this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we have to have a free-trade

0:13:48 > 0:13:50arrangement. They are not on that yet, they are still on the

0:13:50 > 0:13:52implementation phase. When it comes to free-trade, I am very, very

0:13:52 > 0:13:55certain that they will want to make an arrangement with us because it is

0:13:55 > 0:13:58in their interests, arguably more than us let's move on to trade with

0:13:58 > 0:14:00the rest of the world. Why do so absolutely convinced that the

0:14:00 > 0:14:03ability to do with Australia, China, the ones the EU has at the,

0:14:03 > 0:14:05different from the ones the EU has at increasing our trade with these

0:14:05 > 0:14:07countries from inside the EU? Their biggestare so terribly important?

0:14:07 > 0:14:10Why can't we be increasing our trade with these countries from inside the

0:14:10 > 0:14:14EU?Their biggest free-trade we are naturally, the UK, more than any

0:14:14 > 0:14:17other country in the European country, arguably more than most in

0:14:17 > 0:14:21the world, a free-trade for free trade the WTO has a ready said they

0:14:21 > 0:14:24love the idea of us coming back as a full voting member because we will

0:14:24 > 0:14:26argue for free trade. By, global free trade and services, which stop

0:14:26 > 0:14:30because the European Union has not wanted to push the site at all.Do

0:14:30 > 0:14:33so much more trade with China than us from within the EU?That is to do

0:14:33 > 0:14:36with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it Germany do so

0:14:36 > 0:14:40much more trade with China than us from within the EU? That is to do

0:14:40 > 0:14:43with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it.Being a member

0:14:43 > 0:14:47of the EU has being a member of the EU be outside the that so why do we

0:14:47 > 0:14:53have to be outside you get rid of artificial tarrythat is not

0:14:53 > 0:14:56parallel argument. By getting trade arrangements you get rid of

0:14:56 > 0:14:58artificial and delays at the borders that allows you to increase your

0:14:58 > 0:15:02trade. We want from where we are. But at the same time, incoming stuff

0:15:02 > 0:15:06is just as important. The people who will benefit most from a free-trade

0:15:06 > 0:15:09arrangement of the poorest in society because the cost of food,

0:15:09 > 0:15:15footwear and clothing will almost certainly our trade from where we

0:15:15 > 0:15:22are. But at the same time, incoming stuff is just as important.

0:15:26 > 0:15:30You might as much larger and more important market. The skill is not

0:15:30 > 0:15:36that important. The key thing is, do you value a marketplace, is it worth

0:15:36 > 0:15:39doing business with? Financial services is an important are great

0:15:39 > 0:15:43-- an important area you want to strike agreements with. The UK's

0:15:43 > 0:15:46dominant in financial services and you cannot get a free-trade

0:15:46 > 0:15:50agreement within the single market at the moment. You cannot sell

0:15:50 > 0:15:58insurance in Germany without having a company in Germany to sell it.

0:15:58 > 0:16:01They have never wanted to do financial service is free trade. We

0:16:01 > 0:16:04will be in a much better state globally. You have seen the increase

0:16:04 > 0:16:07in New Zealand's trade when they went for free-trade and got rid of

0:16:07 > 0:16:10their trade barriers.A dramatic increase in no global position. The

0:16:10 > 0:16:18tragedy led to this and they reckon a free-trade deal with America we

0:16:18 > 0:16:25did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.I have a bone to pick with the BBC. There has

0:16:25 > 0:16:30been a brilliant economic report are independent, which has been given

0:16:30 > 0:16:33very little coverage which is taken apart the model that the Treasury

0:16:33 > 0:16:37and the government put together. For example, dealing with this. The

0:16:37 > 0:16:41reason why you arrive at this, it depends on what you assume to be the

0:16:41 > 0:16:45actual savings on the border. The government has only assumed a 4%

0:16:45 > 0:16:50saving on getting rid of tariff barriers. Almost every economist in

0:16:50 > 0:16:55the world agrees it is nearer to 20% saving.This study has been covered

0:16:55 > 0:17:01on the BBC it was on the Daily Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

0:17:01 > 0:17:06tariffs on absolutely everything. It is an extremely optimistic forecast.

0:17:06 > 0:17:10It assumes a 10% tariff at the end of the day, it assumes tariffs

0:17:10 > 0:17:15falling to an average of 10%, not zero. If they went to zero it would

0:17:15 > 0:17:21improve it even more. I have read this report backwards.One of the

0:17:21 > 0:17:24officers says that while there will be benefits from free-trade deals,

0:17:24 > 0:17:28over time it would be likely we would mostly eliminate manufacturing

0:17:28 > 0:17:33in UK by the things that would be worth it and it should not us.That

0:17:33 > 0:17:37was one of the original suggestions, much earlier.But he was one of the

0:17:37 > 0:17:41authors of this report.He was but he has accepted this is not going to

0:17:41 > 0:17:45be the case within this report. They're assuming that the border

0:17:45 > 0:17:48changes will mean less of a tariff on the borders at average. That is

0:17:48 > 0:17:52what happens in most other free-trade arrangements. The point

0:17:52 > 0:17:57I'm making is it has a massive benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:57 > 0:18:00That is why going for a free-trade agreement with the European Union is

0:18:00 > 0:18:08the right way to go. We forget what Europe itself once.Labour is in a

0:18:08 > 0:18:12complete mess about this. We will talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:12 > 0:18:15to them about that.They were in favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:15 > 0:18:19and the single market and Barry Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:19 > 0:18:23state if you stayed in the customs union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:23 > 0:18:27about that. Theresa May has made it clear where out of the single market

0:18:27 > 0:18:31and Customs union and I say to my colleagues who want to change some

0:18:31 > 0:18:36of this, just be very careful on this one, because being invited into

0:18:36 > 0:18:39a Labour Party tactical game which will end up in real damage the

0:18:39 > 0:18:43United Kingdom.Iain Duncan Smith, thank you very much for talking to

0:18:43 > 0:18:45us.

0:18:45 > 0:18:47So much for the Conservatives, but what about Labour?

0:18:47 > 0:18:49In 24 hours' time, Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:49 > 0:18:50a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:50 > 0:18:53All the signs are that he will back the UK staying permanently

0:18:53 > 0:18:54in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57But over 80 senior Labour figures have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:57 > 0:19:00further and support staying in the single market as well.

0:19:00 > 0:19:02But how would that go down with the millions of Labour

0:19:02 > 0:19:04voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:04 > 0:19:05Here's what the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:05 > 0:19:07said this morning.

0:19:07 > 0:19:10Well, we have long championed being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:10 > 0:19:14and the benefits of that.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16Obviously, it is the only way, realistically, to get

0:19:16 > 0:19:18tariff free access.

0:19:18 > 0:19:22It is really important for our manufacturing base

0:19:22 > 0:19:26and nobody can answer the question how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:26 > 0:19:28hard border in Northern Ireland without a customs union.

0:19:28 > 0:19:30We have always said that the benefits of the single

0:19:30 > 0:19:33market must be there in the final agreement and that is a really

0:19:33 > 0:19:35important commitment because in the end, however

0:19:35 > 0:19:38you arrive at that, in whatever the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:38 > 0:19:39the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:39 > 0:19:41Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:41 > 0:19:44There is obviously an argument about how we get there.

0:19:44 > 0:19:47To discuss this I'm joined by two Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:47 > 0:19:48sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:48 > 0:19:50Frank Field campaigned to leave the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:50 > 0:19:53is a supporter of the pro-European group Open Britain.

0:19:53 > 0:19:58Thank you both for coming on the programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:58 > 0:20:02signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn to be asking not only to stay in the

0:20:02 > 0:20:07customs union but also the single market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:07 > 0:20:12really delivering on the referendum Brexit result?There are lots of

0:20:12 > 0:20:15different combinations that still see is leaving the European Union

0:20:15 > 0:20:19but do what Labour people across this country, and that is why there

0:20:19 > 0:20:22is support across the country and the party for this letter, which is

0:20:22 > 0:20:28to protect the jobs and incomes. We know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:28 > 0:20:32I am horrified to your Iain Duncan Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:32 > 0:20:36manufacturing may be at stake or the numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:36 > 0:20:41massive hit on our economy. It is a massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:41 > 0:20:43Ireland if we leave the customs union. These are called labour

0:20:43 > 0:20:47values and that is what we are standing up for.You're asking to

0:20:47 > 0:20:51stay in the single market. The problem with that is you thought an

0:20:51 > 0:20:56election last year under a manifesto which said that free movement will

0:20:56 > 0:21:00end.You cannot do both. I am in the migration committee on the Council

0:21:00 > 0:21:04of Europe. Lots of people are willing to talk about how we make

0:21:04 > 0:21:07freedom of movement work. They recognise politicians have not got

0:21:07 > 0:21:11it right across the continent. If we are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:11 > 0:21:14single market we cannot have that conversation about what the reformed

0:21:14 > 0:21:18freedom of movement might look like. I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:18 > 0:21:22important right for people in this country. I do not want to have to

0:21:22 > 0:21:25see the kids in Walthamstow Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:25 > 0:21:28work for a company that has a base outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:28 > 0:21:36decisions we've made. That puts them in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:36 > 0:21:39want to do that.Frank Field, does this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:39 > 0:21:43sell to any leave photo?No, and you know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:43 > 0:21:48it. I am looking forward to what Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:48 > 0:21:54you have hyped it up. On every vote we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:54 > 0:21:57before he became leader, Jeremy Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:57 > 0:22:01of this organisation which is corrupt, it has never got its

0:22:01 > 0:22:07accounts audited, it is bankrupt. Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:07 > 0:22:11not be arguing to stay in the EU, he will be arguing for the customs

0:22:11 > 0:22:19union?Please, let me finish. It is deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:19 > 0:22:24has destabilised Europe with all this pretence about it has brought

0:22:24 > 0:22:30peace. Look what we have done to the area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:30 > 0:22:34number of states within Europe who depend on our contribution, we

0:22:34 > 0:22:39should be voting for a clear decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:39 > 0:22:44want a free-trade area, and we have money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:44 > 0:22:47I think we should take the gloves off in these negotiations and look

0:22:47 > 0:22:52at the real power structure. They need our money, and for reasons

0:22:52 > 0:22:58which Stella Creasy has put forward, we need access to a free-market

0:22:58 > 0:23:01arrangement.What is your problem with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:23:01 > 0:23:07Labour policy will be too clearly stay in a customs union?Two things.

0:23:07 > 0:23:12One, it goes against what we said at the election. It goes against all

0:23:12 > 0:23:18the scare tactics during the campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:18 > 0:23:22saying, you know, if you vote here, you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:22 > 0:23:26you're leaving the free market. There was no question about what the

0:23:26 > 0:23:33referendum was deciding. And the politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:33 > 0:23:37be run by a London agenda? I know Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:37 > 0:23:44that she reaches out across the country, but this is essentially a

0:23:44 > 0:23:46London agenda against Labour voters, particularly in the North.

0:23:46 > 0:23:51THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:51 > 0:23:55who signed this letter, the leader of Newcastle Council.You and I

0:23:55 > 0:24:00would in the lobby fighting together against this government's welfare

0:24:00 > 0:24:03cuts.£12 billion cuts.That is nothing to do with this. It

0:24:03 > 0:24:08absolutely is. Even the bare minimal model we are talking about would be

0:24:08 > 0:24:14ahead on our economy and the communities we represent. How can we

0:24:14 > 0:24:19vote Forestieri the? How can you do that to the voters, the People who

0:24:19 > 0:24:22work in the Vauxhall plants in the Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:22 > 0:24:26about to lose their jobs. How can you do that to the People in

0:24:26 > 0:24:31Northern Ireland?Let me answer you, please. We have been through the

0:24:31 > 0:24:33courts. There is no problem about the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:33 > 0:24:38challenged by this at all. We have got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:38 > 0:24:42I think there are problems with the Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:42 > 0:24:48union.No, it will remain. If we have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:48 > 0:24:54that with you. About austerity, can I answer that? We are net

0:24:54 > 0:24:57contributor. We will have money to be brought back. While some people

0:24:57 > 0:25:03have signed the order leaders even there, when you look at the

0:25:03 > 0:25:11parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:11 > 0:25:15seats were only kept by a handful of votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:15 > 0:25:20very clearly to leave. That is the act of faith. I know there are

0:25:20 > 0:25:24problems about how do you give the electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:24 > 0:25:28an issue and then bring it back into a representative parliamentary

0:25:28 > 0:25:35system, but the vote was cleared to leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:35 > 0:25:38whether we support that or not and if we do not support that, I think

0:25:38 > 0:25:42Labour voters will draw their own messages in the North.Please do not

0:25:42 > 0:25:45drive Boris's bars for the People of those communities. You're saying

0:25:45 > 0:25:50that somehow we will get money back. All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:50 > 0:25:55money you get back will be dwarfed by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:55 > 0:26:01about £1 billion coming back.

0:26:01 > 0:26:02about £1 billion coming back. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:26:02 > 0:26:07You can talk across me all you like, the numbers are there in the

0:26:07 > 0:26:10government's on analysis. That is what we have to front up to the

0:26:10 > 0:26:16communities we represent.Are you going to write on the People's

0:26:16 > 0:26:22decision to leave?You're coming out with all these things, we will stay

0:26:22 > 0:26:26in a customs union, we will stay in a single market, the decision was

0:26:26 > 0:26:32quite clear to leave. In the north, Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:32 > 0:26:39clearly. You going to rat on them or not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:39 > 0:26:42the rest of it. It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:42 > 0:26:47is about the evidence that we now have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:47 > 0:26:51after the referendum.People have a right to see the detail.Of course

0:26:51 > 0:26:54they do. Do you accept that the government figures show clearly that

0:26:54 > 0:26:59if we stay in the European economic arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:59 > 0:27:05we are still going to take a 16 pelt -- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:27:05 > 0:27:08That worse anything you get back. This letter is not just signed from

0:27:08 > 0:27:12people across the country but people across the trade union movement

0:27:12 > 0:27:18because they because they know the

0:27:25 > 0:27:28hard Brexit the government is pushing for and why it matters

0:27:28 > 0:27:30Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the customs union and single market

0:27:30 > 0:27:32membership.It means jobs and wages. What we should be fighting forest

0:27:32 > 0:27:34sector agreements with the European Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:34 > 0:27:37They have always opposed the activities of the city. There is no

0:27:37 > 0:27:39need to worry about the city. There is a need to worry about

0:27:39 > 0:27:42manufacturing and we will make special arrangements with them. The

0:27:42 > 0:27:46issue is clear, do we disguise the fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:46 > 0:27:52have a customs union or some other arrangement which counters what the

0:27:52 > 0:27:57clear declaration of northern Labour voters actually said?They have

0:27:57 > 0:28:01changed their side. A third of Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:28:01 > 0:28:05You risk them abandoning the party. This is not about rerunning the

0:28:05 > 0:28:10referendum. It is about what kind of deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:10 > 0:28:13interests of Britain. I believe voters across this country have the

0:28:13 > 0:28:15right to know what is likely to happen.

0:28:15 > 0:28:24THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Of course they have a right.A right

0:28:24 > 0:28:30to every bit of information going. The key thing, we have had a

0:28:30 > 0:28:33referendum and we rarely use referendums for this reason, they

0:28:33 > 0:28:36are difficult to implement. The referendum decision was clear and

0:28:36 > 0:28:41particularly clear in the North from Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:41 > 0:28:44with them. I voted to come out. I know it is harder for people who

0:28:44 > 0:28:53voted to stay in. Are we going to dress up a retreat, Agassi?Then

0:28:53 > 0:28:55there is a complicated decision for you to make. We've been talking

0:28:55 > 0:28:59about the amendment put forward by Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:59 > 0:29:03to the trade bill that will be voted on in a few time. There is a

0:29:03 > 0:29:06potential to defeat the government is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:06 > 0:29:12of a customs union and whips his MPs to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:12 > 0:29:14opportunity to win a vote against the government and bring down

0:29:14 > 0:29:22Theresa May, would you vote with her to keep her in office or against?

0:29:22 > 0:29:24That is not the choice and you know that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:24 > 0:29:27day. We will have a decision, do we continue to implement the referendum

0:29:27 > 0:29:33decision. I shall be voting for that.Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:33 > 0:29:36up the government?It is not about propping up the government it is

0:29:36 > 0:29:41about implementing a decision of the People. The government has a

0:29:41 > 0:29:45majority on this. The idea that Anna Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:45 > 0:29:49people into the labour lobbies is just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:49 > 0:29:53the night. The government will win comfortably and double figures on

0:29:53 > 0:29:57this issue.Frank Field, Stella Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:57 > 0:30:00there. Thank you very much.

0:30:00 > 0:30:03The local elections in May will see many seats in the big metropolitan

0:30:03 > 0:30:05councils in England up for grabs, and the Conservatives may need

0:30:05 > 0:30:07to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:07 > 0:30:09A YouGov poll predicts Labour could seize several

0:30:09 > 0:30:11Conservative councils in London, including one the Tories

0:30:11 > 0:30:12have never lost before.

0:30:12 > 0:30:16Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:16 > 0:30:19Not since the swinging '60s has anyone done better in local

0:30:19 > 0:30:22elections than Labour could be about to.

0:30:22 > 0:30:26A recent YouGov poll is predicting Labour will sweep London

0:30:26 > 0:30:31with the best results for any party since 1968.

0:30:35 > 0:30:39One of the most enduring Tory strongholds is here.

0:30:39 > 0:30:42To this day, Westminster, with its largely affluent

0:30:42 > 0:30:46population of voters, has never had a Labour-run

0:30:46 > 0:30:51authority, but if the poll is to be believed, that could now change.

0:30:52 > 0:30:56This council has been Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:56 > 0:30:59since the borough was created in the 1960s.

0:30:59 > 0:31:03But if the swing was big enough to turn this council red,

0:31:03 > 0:31:05that would top off a very good night for Labour.

0:31:05 > 0:31:09The Conservatives are at position where they could potentially

0:31:09 > 0:31:13be left with just one, maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:13 > 0:31:16I think that would be a bad night for the Conservatives,

0:31:16 > 0:31:19but it is possible.

0:31:19 > 0:31:23They are having to fight to hang on almost everywhere

0:31:23 > 0:31:24they still have representation.

0:31:24 > 0:31:27But away from London, it could be a different story.

0:31:27 > 0:31:32Birmingham City Council has been controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:32 > 0:31:36They hold around two-thirds of the seats here, but there

0:31:36 > 0:31:40is anger over a bin dispute that lasted for months and left tons

0:31:40 > 0:31:42of rubbish on the streets uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:42 > 0:31:47budget cuts that are affecting local services.

0:31:47 > 0:31:50It does not matter who is in because there is nothing between them,

0:31:50 > 0:31:53that is the problem, because Birmingham is basically

0:31:53 > 0:31:55screwed by central government, who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:55 > 0:31:58There has been a lot of problems with the bin collections.

0:31:58 > 0:31:59Yes, there have.

0:31:59 > 0:32:00Oh, yes.

0:32:00 > 0:32:03The Labour run council got the blame for that?

0:32:03 > 0:32:05Yes, I would say so.

0:32:05 > 0:32:07The more it dragged on, certainly, yes.

0:32:07 > 0:32:11This will be the first all-out election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:11 > 0:32:13since boundary changes, so there are 101 seats

0:32:13 > 0:32:17here all up for grabs.

0:32:17 > 0:32:20It is a place Labour should do well, but could the party be

0:32:20 > 0:32:21punished over those bins?

0:32:21 > 0:32:24Back in the summer, of course, we had the bin strike.

0:32:24 > 0:32:27It was not the city's greatest moment in time.

0:32:27 > 0:32:30When I became leader of the council, I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:30 > 0:32:32dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:32 > 0:32:35We, the Labour Party here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:35 > 0:32:37to maintaining weekly bin collections going forward

0:32:37 > 0:32:39for the next four years, a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:39 > 0:32:44from either of the other two parties.

0:32:44 > 0:32:47Here in Birmingham, the council tax has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:47 > 0:32:49but services have gone down, and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:49 > 0:32:52left on their streets, and they feel it is time

0:32:52 > 0:32:53for a change.

0:32:53 > 0:32:55There are plenty of other places who survive

0:32:55 > 0:32:56on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:56 > 0:32:57With council budgets being constrained, is that

0:32:57 > 0:33:01not a sensible option?

0:33:01 > 0:33:03In Birmingham, we are absolutely clear that weekly bin

0:33:03 > 0:33:04collections need to remain.

0:33:04 > 0:33:09Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens remain much

0:33:09 > 0:33:11stronger in local government than they are in Parliament,

0:33:11 > 0:33:14and in May, they will be fighting to increase

0:33:14 > 0:33:17their local authority presence.

0:33:17 > 0:33:20While Ukip are likely to continue to struggle to reverse

0:33:20 > 0:33:23the party's decline.

0:33:23 > 0:33:26But if the story of the night is the biggest Labour

0:33:26 > 0:33:28success since the '60s, any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:28 > 0:33:31strongholds could start to make some Conservative MPs worry

0:33:31 > 0:33:35about their constituencies ahead of the next general election.

0:33:35 > 0:33:40Steve, Kate and Iain are still with me.

0:33:40 > 0:33:45Let's pick up on the local elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:45 > 0:33:50be deeply worried about this, what she expected a bad night and what

0:33:50 > 0:33:53might the consequences be?No doubt she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:53 > 0:33:56thing is Everything is underlined by the fact people care more about

0:33:56 > 0:33:59things than other things that is what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:59 > 0:34:04end of the day. I think Theresa May will be worried. -- it comes down

0:34:04 > 0:34:11bins. It is a battle ground for those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:11 > 0:34:14if you see what has happened to Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:14 > 0:34:17powerful momentum and the left have become in local politics, you see

0:34:17 > 0:34:22how much it matters to Labour. I think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:22 > 0:34:26particularly about London. As the BT said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:26 > 0:34:30and that is not going to look very good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:30 > 0:34:35chairman of the party, said last week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:35 > 0:34:38He is setting that already. I think the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:38 > 0:34:42like Birmingham and other areas around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:42 > 0:34:45to be important and I think that's why it comes back to labour being

0:34:45 > 0:34:49modelled on Brexit. People vote with their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:49 > 0:34:52back some seats like burning in other places, it might not be a

0:34:52 > 0:34:57massive all-out loss lost them on the night.Expectation management

0:34:57 > 0:35:03already being Manoj

0:35:03 > 0:35:05already being Manoj -- being managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:05 > 0:35:08what they think. Did they have consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:08 > 0:35:15politics?They could do this time. It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:15 > 0:35:19this, 1990 when the Tories did disastrously in local elections.

0:35:19 > 0:35:27Kenneth Baker went out on the streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:27 > 0:35:30loved. I don't think that will happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:30 > 0:35:34Brandon Lewis, the Tory party chairman has already started to

0:35:34 > 0:35:41manage expectations. He generally believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:41 > 0:35:46particularly in London. These will last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:46 > 0:35:50are doing well. In the last year, Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:50 > 0:35:54disappeared. So all three other parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:54 > 0:35:57by-elections. It depends where that vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:57 > 0:36:03be able to hold onto the seats they won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:36:03 > 0:36:07Democrats be able to hold onto the six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:07 > 0:36:14but I think it will be patchy. Andy Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:14 > 0:36:18in the West Midlands. If they do that they will have a 1990 situation

0:36:18 > 0:36:21and that is all they will talk about.Even if they lose

0:36:21 > 0:36:26Westminster?Probably.How important is it for Labour to do well, do they

0:36:26 > 0:36:34seem to be be -- do they need to be seen making advances, to keep up

0:36:34 > 0:36:40with the idea they are on the Tory's heels?I think it is important for

0:36:40 > 0:36:43that whatever happens I don't think it will have a huge impact on the

0:36:43 > 0:36:46national picture because I think it will confirm the dynamics as they

0:36:46 > 0:36:50already are, in other words Jeremy Corbyn has been in a strong position

0:36:50 > 0:36:54since the general election and that will be confirmed. Theresa May has

0:36:54 > 0:36:58been in a fragile position since the general election and that will be

0:36:58 > 0:37:02confirmed. But by that point Brexit will be reaching or coming close to

0:37:02 > 0:37:06one of its several climactic son I think that will shape the national

0:37:06 > 0:37:10picture. The local elections will be really important for local

0:37:10 > 0:37:15government, who inherit the nightmarish budget. It won't change

0:37:15 > 0:37:22the national picture very much.Iain said Ukip's vote has been falling

0:37:22 > 0:37:25and they have had their troubles recently as well. Important to see

0:37:25 > 0:37:29where their vote goes and confirms we are moving back to two party

0:37:29 > 0:37:34politics maybe?I think it does nationally but locally it's a

0:37:34 > 0:37:37different picture because the Ukip vote tends to go on all kinds of

0:37:37 > 0:37:42directions. It doesn't necessarily go where you think it will. So the

0:37:42 > 0:37:45Liberal Democrats and the Greens do quite well at local elections,

0:37:45 > 0:37:48whereas nationally they don't do very well at all. I think sometimes

0:37:48 > 0:37:52you do see people who would vote for any other party going for any other

0:37:52 > 0:37:56party and not necessarily the Tories and Labour. I think it comes down to

0:37:56 > 0:38:02how much this comes down to Brexit. Do people care more about Brexit or

0:38:02 > 0:38:07bins question mark in areas like London, I think Brexit and bigger

0:38:07 > 0:38:12national issues will have a bearing. Brexit one way or another will help

0:38:12 > 0:38:20with your bins?London has become a Labour city. Huge capital city with

0:38:20 > 0:38:23millions and millions has become a Labour stronghold. That is

0:38:23 > 0:38:27significant for all kinds of reasons. It has also become as

0:38:27 > 0:38:32strong as it used to be in Scotland. Even in 2010 in the general

0:38:32 > 0:38:37election, London voted Labour by a wide margin. That is quite a

0:38:37 > 0:38:41significant development.We need to leave it there just now, coming back

0:38:41 > 0:38:43to you later in the programme.

0:38:43 > 0:38:45It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:45 > 0:38:46Still to come...

0:38:46 > 0:38:49We speak to Former Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire

0:38:49 > 0:38:50about returning to Parliament after major surgery for cancer.

0:38:53 > 0:38:56Of students, and that support will also be available on a pro rata

0:38:56 > 0:38:58basis to part-time students, so these people choosing to study and

0:38:58 > 0:39:00work or perhaps who have caring responsibilities and need to study,

0:39:00 > 0:39:00or

0:39:00 > 0:39:03or perhaps students who are older, looking to perhaps retrain or apps

0:39:03 > 0:39:05kill themselves at an older age, we've got to get away from simply

0:39:05 > 0:39:07regarding students as 18-year-old school leavers, and that's why our

0:39:07 > 0:39:09system in Wales reflects that.But whatever happens in England will

0:39:09 > 0:39:10also have a big

0:39:14 > 0:39:16Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.

0:39:16 > 0:39:18Later in today's programme, what's Wales doing to get ready

0:39:18 > 0:39:19for the carless world?

0:39:19 > 0:39:22Not much, according to Plaid Cymru, and Julie Morgan will be

0:39:22 > 0:39:25here to tell us why she wants to be Labour's number two in Wales.

0:39:25 > 0:39:27But first, tuition fees were in the news this week

0:39:27 > 0:39:30when Theresa May announced a review of how they work in England,

0:39:30 > 0:39:32although scrapping them is off the table.

0:39:32 > 0:39:35It is, of course, one of those areas which is devolved

0:39:35 > 0:39:37to the Welsh Government, but what happens to universities

0:39:37 > 0:39:39across the border has a massive impact over here.

0:39:39 > 0:39:41So what could it mean in Wales?

0:39:41 > 0:39:43That was my first question to the Education Secretary,

0:39:43 > 0:39:45Kirsty Williams, when I met her in her office in Brecon.

0:39:45 > 0:39:48At the moment, because it's just a review, it's difficult to estimate

0:39:48 > 0:39:51what the impact will be, but I welcome the opportunity

0:39:51 > 0:39:53to share with colleagues across the border in England

0:39:53 > 0:39:55the findings of our Diamond Review that looked at sustainability

0:39:55 > 0:39:58within the higher education sector and how we can best

0:39:58 > 0:39:59support students.

0:39:59 > 0:40:02In fact we've already shared that information and the work we've been

0:40:02 > 0:40:06doing in Wales as we implement what I would regard as the most

0:40:06 > 0:40:08progressive system of student support anywhere in the UK.

0:40:08 > 0:40:15And to an extent, do you think rather than just looking at the fees

0:40:15 > 0:40:17issue, should they also be looking, as Diamond did in Wales,

0:40:17 > 0:40:19at the grants issue as well, that maybe increasingly

0:40:19 > 0:40:22that is a more important issue for students than tuition fees?

0:40:22 > 0:40:23Absolutely.

0:40:23 > 0:40:26If you listen to students and those representing them in the NUS,

0:40:26 > 0:40:28it is maintenance, the upfront living costs, that are of most

0:40:28 > 0:40:31concern to students.

0:40:31 > 0:40:35That was echoed in the findings of the Diamond Review,

0:40:35 > 0:40:38and that's why we in Wales have taken the decision we have,

0:40:38 > 0:40:42that from this September, the start of the new academic year,

0:40:42 > 0:40:47we will be providing support for children and students from less

0:40:47 > 0:40:50well-off backgrounds with generous maintenance support.

0:40:50 > 0:40:53Also, crucially, what we are doing differently in Wales is recognising

0:40:53 > 0:40:56that there are different types of students, and that support

0:40:56 > 0:41:00will also be available on a pro rata basis to part-time students,

0:41:00 > 0:41:03so that people choosing to study and work or perhaps who have caring

0:41:03 > 0:41:08responsibilities and need to study, or perhaps students who are older,

0:41:08 > 0:41:14looking to perhaps retrain or upskill themselves at an older

0:41:14 > 0:41:17age - we've got to get away from simply regarding students

0:41:17 > 0:41:19as 18-year-old school leavers, and that's why our system

0:41:19 > 0:41:23in Wales reflects that.

0:41:23 > 0:41:24in Wales reflects that.

0:41:24 > 0:41:27But whatever happens in England will also have a big impact

0:41:27 > 0:41:30on what happens here in Wales, even though it's a devolved area,

0:41:30 > 0:41:33and one of the things they've been talking about in England is having

0:41:33 > 0:41:37different fees for different courses and kinds of courses.

0:41:37 > 0:41:41Do you think that would necessarily have to be in the case in Wales

0:41:41 > 0:41:43were it to happen in England?

0:41:43 > 0:41:46You're absolutely right, we can't pretend that because this

0:41:46 > 0:41:48area is devolved we don't have to take cognizance of what happens

0:41:48 > 0:41:51in England, and I am especially concerned that there were major

0:41:51 > 0:41:58changes in England that have financial consequences.

0:41:58 > 0:42:01That would need to be reflected in the Barnett Formula and how money

0:42:01 > 0:42:04flows from Westminster to Wales, but on the issue of differentiation,

0:42:04 > 0:42:08I think we need to be really cautious here.

0:42:08 > 0:42:10It was something Diamond looked at and didn't recommend,

0:42:10 > 0:42:15and I would hate for us to be in a situation where certain

0:42:15 > 0:42:18institutions or certain courses were only available to a cohort

0:42:18 > 0:42:25of students who could afford to do that.

0:42:25 > 0:42:28What is really important is that we have equity in our system

0:42:28 > 0:42:31and that your ability to study is based on your innate talents

0:42:31 > 0:42:33and desire and ability to reach your full potential,

0:42:33 > 0:42:35and we shouldn't be closing off options because there

0:42:35 > 0:42:40is differential fees or costs.

0:42:40 > 0:42:46But would it be beyond your control?

0:42:46 > 0:42:46But would it be beyond your control?

0:42:46 > 0:42:49Can you conceive of a situation whereby there are these differential

0:42:49 > 0:42:50fees being charged for different courses in England,

0:42:50 > 0:42:52but not in Wales?

0:42:52 > 0:42:55Do you think you would have to follow England's lead?

0:42:55 > 0:42:58We would have to look at how we support our system

0:42:58 > 0:43:01in the light of changes across the border in England.

0:43:01 > 0:43:03We've always done that.

0:43:03 > 0:43:06But I would really, really warn against that.

0:43:06 > 0:43:08Indeed, other people who have looked at the system have highlighted

0:43:08 > 0:43:11the problems with that.

0:43:11 > 0:43:14Justine Greening, who of course has just left her job at the last

0:43:14 > 0:43:18reshuffle in Westminster, from the education portfolio -

0:43:18 > 0:43:20she herself has at a very early stage warned against that,

0:43:20 > 0:43:26because she recognises, as we do in Wales, the impact that

0:43:26 > 0:43:30might have on social mobility and creating a two-tier system

0:43:30 > 0:43:32where those who can afford cam and those from less well

0:43:32 > 0:43:35off background cannot.

0:43:35 > 0:43:38You mentioned the new offer being made to students which will be

0:43:38 > 0:43:40rolled out from September this year, where grants appear rather

0:43:40 > 0:43:42than paying an element of the tuition fees.

0:43:42 > 0:43:45Where are you on that now, how ready are you, how good to go

0:43:45 > 0:43:49is the new system in Wales?

0:43:49 > 0:43:51Everybody has worked really hard, including the Student Loans Company,

0:43:51 > 0:43:54which of course is the organisation which administers the grants

0:43:54 > 0:43:57and the fees system and loan system for us, so I am confident

0:43:57 > 0:44:00that we will be in a position to roll out Diamond for both

0:44:00 > 0:44:07undergraduate, part-time and full-time students.

0:44:07 > 0:44:09We have interim arrangements in place for postgraduate,

0:44:09 > 0:44:11and the postgraduate elements of the Diamond reforms will come

0:44:11 > 0:44:15fully onstream a year September.

0:44:15 > 0:44:17fully onstream a year September.

0:44:17 > 0:44:20To what extent are you confident that you know what kind of student

0:44:20 > 0:44:23will be accessing what kind of money and how much money, because the very

0:44:23 > 0:44:25poorest students will be eligible for £10,000 grants,

0:44:25 > 0:44:26then £7,000, and everyone gets £1,000.

0:44:26 > 0:44:34Do you know who will be getting what, roughly?

0:44:34 > 0:44:37As you quite rightly say, every eligible student from Wales

0:44:37 > 0:44:39will be entitled to a £1,000 non-repayable grant,

0:44:39 > 0:44:41because we recognise there is a role for both the individual

0:44:41 > 0:44:45and the state.

0:44:45 > 0:44:47The individual benefits from a higher education,

0:44:47 > 0:44:50but so do we as a nation, and we want to reflect

0:44:50 > 0:44:54that in ensuring that we contribute for everybody.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57But then we have the means testing element.

0:44:57 > 0:45:03We anticipate that approximately, on current data, around a third

0:45:03 > 0:45:06of Welsh students will be eligible for the full grant,

0:45:06 > 0:45:12and an average Welsh student in the system at the moment

0:45:12 > 0:45:14at the moment would be, going forward,

0:45:14 > 0:45:16eligible for a grant of around £7,000 a year

0:45:16 > 0:45:19towards upfront living costs.

0:45:19 > 0:45:24So that's one element of your brief, higher education.

0:45:24 > 0:45:30But then to look at schools as well, and the results we get

0:45:30 > 0:45:33from schools and so on, we have just seen a few days ago

0:45:33 > 0:45:36some data being released, specifically on the level two

0:45:36 > 0:45:38thresholds, how many GCSEs they get between A*-C,

0:45:38 > 0:45:40and they have to have five to cross that threshold.

0:45:40 > 0:45:43The Schools Challenge Cymru, a set-up with £10 million to help

0:45:43 > 0:45:47managing schools in Wales, was scrapped when you became

0:45:47 > 0:45:50Education Secretary.

0:45:50 > 0:45:52But the latest statistics for the schools show

0:45:52 > 0:45:53they did really well.

0:45:53 > 0:45:5634 of 39 of those schools saw an increase, 12 by more than ten

0:45:56 > 0:45:59percentage points in just three years - a remarkable

0:45:59 > 0:46:02turnaround for those schools.

0:46:02 > 0:46:05Was it wise to scrap that scheme, do you think?

0:46:05 > 0:46:08Let's be clear, when the scheme was established,

0:46:08 > 0:46:10it was a time-limited scheme to be able to accelerate improvement

0:46:10 > 0:46:13in those schools causing the most concern that that particular

0:46:13 > 0:46:16point in time.

0:46:16 > 0:46:19It was the right thing to do then.

0:46:19 > 0:46:24Crucially, what we are doing now as ensuring that all schools,

0:46:24 > 0:46:26Crucially, what we are doing now is ensuring that all schools,

0:46:26 > 0:46:28whether they were a part of the original scheme or not,

0:46:28 > 0:46:31where there are concerns about performance, they are able

0:46:31 > 0:46:35to access support from our regional consortia, so I congratulate those

0:46:35 > 0:46:37schools who have made progress, and unfortunately in some areas

0:46:37 > 0:46:42progress has been made despite that investment.

0:46:42 > 0:46:44progress has not been made despite that investment.

0:46:44 > 0:46:47What is crucial for me going forward is that we have made resources

0:46:47 > 0:46:50available to the regional consortia so that the learning from what had

0:46:50 > 0:46:53been Schools Challenge Cymru, which made a difference to those

0:46:53 > 0:46:54schools not performing where we wouldn't be,

0:46:54 > 0:46:57how we can use that learning across the whole of the sector,

0:46:57 > 0:47:00so that all schools can benefit from that learning and that support,

0:47:00 > 0:47:02rather than a small number of schools that were included

0:47:02 > 0:47:03in your original scheme.

0:47:03 > 0:47:06in the original scheme.

0:47:06 > 0:47:08But you don't have any concerns at all, then,

0:47:08 > 0:47:12or any fear that perhaps having now pulled the plug on that funding,

0:47:12 > 0:47:15those schools could be going back a step in future?

0:47:15 > 0:47:18What was really important is that we saw sustainable

0:47:18 > 0:47:22change in those schools, sustainable ways in which that

0:47:22 > 0:47:25change could continue to move forward once the scaffolding,

0:47:25 > 0:47:29the extra scaffolding of the schools challenge scheme was brought away,

0:47:29 > 0:47:32because it was always the intention that the scheme would

0:47:32 > 0:47:33be time-limited.

0:47:33 > 0:47:35Those schools needed an extra boost, extra support at that moment.

0:47:35 > 0:47:37Many of them have made good progress.

0:47:37 > 0:47:38Unfortunately not all.

0:47:38 > 0:47:41What is important now is that we give all schools

0:47:41 > 0:47:43the opportunity to learn from that experience and have that

0:47:43 > 0:47:45support rather than a small number of schools.

0:47:45 > 0:47:48But it was always a time-limited programme, and what we do need

0:47:48 > 0:47:51to ensure is that we have a self improving system across all of our

0:47:51 > 0:47:54schools where we can learn from the best and embed sustainable

0:47:54 > 0:48:04change so that can be built upon year-on-year.

0:48:04 > 0:48:08Kirsty Williams, thank you very much.

0:48:08 > 0:48:11You're welcome.

0:48:11 > 0:48:13The year 2040 might seem a long way off.

0:48:13 > 0:48:16It's 22 years away, since you ask!

0:48:16 > 0:48:19But that's when the sale of diesel and petrol cars will be

0:48:19 > 0:48:21banned across the UK.

0:48:21 > 0:48:24Well, we've been told that the Welsh Government has no

0:48:24 > 0:48:25plan in place to deal with the changes.

0:48:25 > 0:48:28Plaid Cymru AM Simon Thomas has told this programme Welsh ministers

0:48:28 > 0:48:30are "off pace" in developing alternatives, like public transport,

0:48:30 > 0:48:31walking and cycling.

0:48:31 > 0:48:37Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.

0:48:37 > 0:48:38Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.

0:48:42 > 0:48:51Good evening and welcome to Wales Today.

0:48:51 > 0:48:54Our top story on Thursday the 25th of February 2038 -

0:48:54 > 0:48:57our main towns and cities in Wales are officially car-free.

0:48:57 > 0:48:58Bangor and Aberystwyth are fully pedestrianised,

0:48:58 > 0:49:00there is a metro system covering Swansea, and cycle

0:49:00 > 0:49:04superhighways all over Cardiff.

0:49:04 > 0:49:06Is this what the future has in store for us,

0:49:06 > 0:49:09or is it all a pipedream?

0:49:09 > 0:49:11We are a nation of car lovers.

0:49:11 > 0:49:14There is one car for every two of us in Wales.

0:49:14 > 0:49:17That's above the UK average, and that's a number that's gone up

0:49:17 > 0:49:20over the last five years.

0:49:20 > 0:49:23So we are being told to leave our cars and take

0:49:23 > 0:49:24other forms of transport.

0:49:24 > 0:49:25Walk, even.

0:49:25 > 0:49:28Because it's better for our health, the environment, and our wallets.

0:49:28 > 0:49:34And cities across Wales are stepping up.

0:49:34 > 0:49:36Cardiff, for example, is rolling out these

0:49:36 > 0:49:39Nextbikes across the city, which are a bit like

0:49:39 > 0:49:41Boris bikes in London.

0:49:41 > 0:49:44You can pick them up in one part of the city and drop

0:49:44 > 0:49:45them off in another.

0:49:45 > 0:49:46More cycle corridors are planned, car-free

0:49:46 > 0:49:49days in the city centre, and, of course, that

0:49:49 > 0:49:50new metro central transport hub.

0:49:50 > 0:49:58So, is Wales ready for that car-free future?

0:49:58 > 0:50:00The UK Government has talked about phasing out diesel

0:50:00 > 0:50:01and petrol transport, cars in particular.

0:50:01 > 0:50:03The Welsh Government has no plans for that,

0:50:03 > 0:50:08and I think that's what the next step for the Welsh Government

0:50:08 > 0:50:11has to be, is how do you prepare us for a future,

0:50:11 > 0:50:14in just 20 years' time, when we may not be able to buy

0:50:14 > 0:50:18new purely diesel or petrol cars.

0:50:18 > 0:50:19OK, then, let's see what other cities are doing.

0:50:19 > 0:50:23Over to Copenhagen.

0:50:23 > 0:50:26Here, over half its people cycle to work every day in bicycle

0:50:26 > 0:50:28lanes spanning 200 miles.

0:50:28 > 0:50:31It has set itself the target to go carbon neutral by 2025.

0:50:31 > 0:50:33Its former environment chief wants to bring the Danish

0:50:33 > 0:50:38revolution to Wales.

0:50:38 > 0:50:40revolution to Wales.

0:50:40 > 0:50:43Around 60% of Copenhagen residents on bicycle tracks would say

0:50:43 > 0:50:46they cycle because it is by far the most efficient and comfortable

0:50:46 > 0:50:48way to get around the city.

0:50:48 > 0:50:51The amount of segregated bicycle lanes you will see around Copenhagen

0:50:51 > 0:50:53was the result of ongoing investment over the last almost 100 years,

0:50:53 > 0:50:58so it's a long process.

0:50:58 > 0:50:58so it's a long process.

0:50:58 > 0:51:00As a politician, I would suggest that Welsh politicians should

0:51:00 > 0:51:03basically stand up and say, we would like this development

0:51:03 > 0:51:05to start, we would like it to continue, and we would actually

0:51:05 > 0:51:11like to hand it onto the generation.

0:51:11 > 0:51:15like to hand it onto the generation.

0:51:16 > 0:51:18How about car nation Germany?

0:51:18 > 0:51:21It is piloting free public transport in five of its cities to meet

0:51:21 > 0:51:22EU pollution targets.

0:51:22 > 0:51:25Should Wales be using its ideas to make public transport more

0:51:25 > 0:51:29attractive than the car?

0:51:29 > 0:51:32If you look at the quality of air in our cities, it's not great,

0:51:32 > 0:51:35so we are one of the worst areas in the UK, and anyway,

0:51:35 > 0:51:38we should be leading the UK, we should be setting higher

0:51:38 > 0:51:40ambition, really, to offer people alternatives to the car.

0:51:40 > 0:51:42I'm not sure we want to be completely car free.

0:51:42 > 0:51:46Some access is going to be required, but it is used at the moment

0:51:46 > 0:51:53as the first option, and that, we really need to tackle.

0:51:53 > 0:51:55Well, Cardiff University's Doctor Justin Spinney suggests some outside

0:51:55 > 0:51:57the box thinking which could just put Welsh cities ahead

0:51:57 > 0:52:02of their European counterparts.

0:52:02 > 0:52:03of their European counterparts.

0:52:03 > 0:52:08We could see the situation where you will just say, "Alexa,

0:52:08 > 0:52:11"I want my car outside my door in five minutes' time."

0:52:11 > 0:52:14It's not your car, it would just turn up, it will do

0:52:14 > 0:52:16the journey want to do, and that it will go home.

0:52:16 > 0:52:19the journey want to do, and then it will go home.

0:52:19 > 0:52:20We are way off the pace.

0:52:20 > 0:52:22We don't have a coherent plan.

0:52:22 > 0:52:24It's left far too much for individual local

0:52:24 > 0:52:25authorities to decide.

0:52:25 > 0:52:28It hasn't always been their fault, because I don't think the UK

0:52:28 > 0:52:30Government has been particularly good on it either, but the really

0:52:30 > 0:52:33positive thing is, there are lots of examples out there.

0:52:33 > 0:52:36Cities, towns and communities have done this, and they have done it

0:52:36 > 0:52:38in an effective way, and they have taken the public with.

0:52:38 > 0:52:42in an effective way, and they have taken the public with them.

0:52:42 > 0:52:43In terms of the Government, do they want to get

0:52:43 > 0:52:45people out of their cars?

0:52:45 > 0:52:46I think they do.

0:52:46 > 0:52:48You know, in Wales, we have the Welsh Active Travel Act,

0:52:48 > 0:52:50we have the Future Generations Act.

0:52:50 > 0:52:52Both of those are a real commitment to more liveable,

0:52:52 > 0:52:53sustainable places.

0:52:53 > 0:52:56If we come back to that idea of the car as a benchmark

0:52:56 > 0:52:58in terms of comfort, convenience, enjoyment,

0:52:58 > 0:53:00sociability, trying to encourage people out of their cars

0:53:00 > 0:53:01is a real uphill struggle.

0:53:01 > 0:53:04The Welsh Government says measures such as the Clean Air Plan

0:53:04 > 0:53:07and the Active Travel Act have set the wheels in motion.

0:53:07 > 0:53:09It says there are already positive signs in areas such as public

0:53:09 > 0:53:12transport and electric cars which show we are on our way

0:53:12 > 0:53:17down that car-free path.

0:53:17 > 0:53:18down that car-free path.

0:53:18 > 0:53:21Now, the race is on to be the first Deputy Leader of Welsh Labour.

0:53:21 > 0:53:24The job has just been created, and the rules say if the leader

0:53:24 > 0:53:27is a man, the deputy has to be a woman.

0:53:27 > 0:53:29Two women have put their hat in the ring to be

0:53:29 > 0:53:30Carwyn Jones' number two.

0:53:30 > 0:53:33We hope to speak to Carolyn Harris in the coming weeks,

0:53:33 > 0:53:36but this week it's the turn of her opponent, the Cardiff

0:53:36 > 0:53:41North AM, Julie Morgan.

0:53:41 > 0:53:44North AM, Julie Morgan.

0:53:44 > 0:53:49Good morning.Why'd you think Welsh Labour needs a deputy, you have done

0:53:49 > 0:53:54well till now, why does it need to be created?It is important to have

0:53:54 > 0:54:00two people at as leader and deputy, and with the rules we have brought

0:54:00 > 0:54:05in we need to have one always being a woman, and I think that is good

0:54:05 > 0:54:09because we need to have a lead ship reflecting the public, in which

0:54:09 > 0:54:15women can relate to, so it has been very good in order to make the

0:54:15 > 0:54:17leadership more representative of the country. I think that's one of

0:54:17 > 0:54:23the main advantages.What is your pitch going to be? This is the job

0:54:23 > 0:54:26interview element of it, what will you bring to the role?First of all,

0:54:26 > 0:54:31I am the only woman, possibly the only person, who has been a

0:54:31 > 0:54:35councillor, an Assembly member, is an Assembly member at the moment,

0:54:35 > 0:54:39and who has been an MP, and I don't think there is any weren't -- there

0:54:39 > 0:54:47is anyone else of that experience in Wales. Maybe the person let alone

0:54:47 > 0:54:49woman. So I bring experience and knowledge of those areas, and adding

0:54:49 > 0:54:52it is important we don't think in silos of air dams, MPs, local

0:54:52 > 0:54:56government, we want to work together, and I think I am in a

0:54:56 > 0:55:01unique position.But those silos do exist. Wouldn't it be better if the

0:55:01 > 0:55:05deputy was a member of Parliament as the leader is, in the Assembly,

0:55:05 > 0:55:09wouldn't be better to have the deputy in Parliament?You would then

0:55:09 > 0:55:13restricted to an even smaller number of people. As it is now it is

0:55:13 > 0:55:24restricted to 58 people who can apply be deputy. I think the

0:55:24 > 0:55:27important thing is the job and what you can do with it rather than

0:55:27 > 0:55:30whether you are an AM or MP or local government leader, but I must say I

0:55:30 > 0:55:33regret there is no local government leader on the ballot paper because I

0:55:33 > 0:55:35think that would be a great advantage.Debbie Wilcox, the

0:55:35 > 0:55:39Newport council leader of the Welsh government local government

0:55:39 > 0:55:42Association stood down and is now supporting you. What would you bring

0:55:42 > 0:55:48to the role, what is your pitch, why should they vote for you?As I say I

0:55:48 > 0:55:51bring the experience, but I also have the experience of a very

0:55:51 > 0:55:57marginal seat in Cardiff North. I thought I'd kept that seat, Labour,

0:55:57 > 0:56:00on and off most of the time, and we had to campaign for every vote

0:56:00 > 0:56:06there. I can bring a campaigning ability, and in the last Welsh

0:56:06 > 0:56:10Assembly elections, I have the highest number of votes for any

0:56:10 > 0:56:14individual can sit in Wales.What is the point of the role, then?

0:56:14 > 0:56:18Campaigning is one of them, you think?I think that is part of it

0:56:18 > 0:56:22and one of the key points is to engage the 25,000 members, because

0:56:22 > 0:56:28we have been very successful in Wales, we have been very successful

0:56:28 > 0:56:32throughout the UK, but we do have 25,000 members, a huge number of

0:56:32 > 0:56:36people, lots of potential, and I want to work with them and harness

0:56:36 > 0:56:39their energies and abilities, and I want them to feel it is meaningful

0:56:39 > 0:56:51to be a member of the Labour Party. My main aim is to work with the

0:56:51 > 0:56:55members.How will you do that?In Cardiff North I have a red gazebo

0:56:55 > 0:56:57and I go around every part of Cardiff North putting up the red

0:56:57 > 0:56:59gazebo is a trademark, seeing people and discussing their issues, and

0:56:59 > 0:57:02that's what I would do all over Wales, I would go around with a red

0:57:02 > 0:57:05gazebo and talk to members of the public, find out the key issues they

0:57:05 > 0:57:09want us to campaign on, so it would be a consultative role. I would

0:57:09 > 0:57:12certainly do that with members as well. The members are spread out all

0:57:12 > 0:57:16over Wales and I think it is important that we act on an all

0:57:16 > 0:57:21Wales level. Consult the members, meet them all, decide the important

0:57:21 > 0:57:27issues for them, and make them feel the party is there for them to

0:57:27 > 0:57:31fulfil their dreams and wishes, why they came to the party.What happens

0:57:31 > 0:57:35if the message you get from the membership is at odds with what the

0:57:35 > 0:57:40leadership is doing? Are you Carwyn Jones's voice to the members or the

0:57:40 > 0:57:47members's voice to Carwyn Jones?I see that is not a conflict at all.

0:57:47 > 0:57:51It could be, couldn't it?The important point of the post is to

0:57:51 > 0:57:55give the members that potential, that way of saying what they feel.

0:57:55 > 0:57:58Inevitably there is conflict, there was always conflict whenever you

0:57:58 > 0:58:01form ideas and policy and that is a good thing. I would see myself as

0:58:01 > 0:58:10the conduit that would enable that to happen.You said you know there

0:58:10 > 0:58:13will be inevitably divisions within the party. How will you manage those

0:58:13 > 0:58:17divisions and how do you make sure there is a united front for the

0:58:17 > 0:58:22party?You make sure there is a democracy embedded in the party, so

0:58:22 > 0:58:27everybody has a chance to have a fair say, and then you would vote on

0:58:27 > 0:58:30things democratically. You have the opportunity to discuss things that

0:58:30 > 0:58:35length, and I think people can always accept if their point of view

0:58:35 > 0:58:47doesn't come forward as long as there has been a fair chance for

0:58:47 > 0:58:50them to be listened to.What you think the mothership in Wales is

0:58:50 > 0:58:53made up of, is it people who have joint because of Jeremy Corbyn and

0:58:53 > 0:58:55that element or is it because of the track record of Welsh Labour,

0:58:55 > 0:58:57because they are probably two different things.It is both. We

0:58:57 > 0:59:00have a really good track record in Wales, you only asked to look at

0:59:00 > 0:59:04what happened to the Labour Party in Scotland. -- have to look. Welsh

0:59:04 > 0:59:08Labour has kept its identity as Welsh and been very successful. Some

0:59:08 > 0:59:12of the new members have certainly come because of the Corbyn bounced,

0:59:12 > 0:59:16and it is great that they have joined, and I would want to

0:59:16 > 0:59:27represent every one of those members, anyone who is a Labour

0:59:27 > 0:59:30member, member in Wales or whether they joined recently as a result of

0:59:30 > 0:59:33Corbyn, but I think as well as Corbyn it would be a result of our

0:59:33 > 0:59:36success in Wales. It often isn't one or the other.You said earlier it is

0:59:36 > 0:59:38important that the deputy is a woman because women in politics can relate

0:59:38 > 0:59:42to you then. I wonder how you feel about how safe place politics is for

0:59:42 > 0:59:49women in Wales at the moment.This is something we have to explore. It

0:59:49 > 0:59:52is obviously a sensitive subject and we have had a very difficult time in

0:59:52 > 0:59:56the Assembly with all these issues that have come up, but I think it is

0:59:56 > 1:00:04essential, the role of the deputy, particularly at this time if the

1:00:04 > 1:00:07deputy will be a woman, to look at whether it is safe in the party for

1:00:07 > 1:00:10women in Wales.You think it is? That is something we need to do is

1:00:10 > 1:00:13discuss. I know women have expressed individual concerns, so I think the

1:00:13 > 1:00:18role of the deputy would be to explore that and find out how women

1:00:18 > 1:00:21feel. Traditionally it has always been difficult for women in

1:00:21 > 1:00:25political parties, all political parties, because they have always

1:00:25 > 1:00:30been male dominated. Women have never had a fair share, really, in

1:00:30 > 1:00:35any political party, and I wouldn't want to see my role if I was deputy

1:00:35 > 1:00:45-- I

1:00:48 > 1:00:51would want to see my role to see that they were heard and did feel

1:00:51 > 1:00:54safe, and if they didn't we would have to do something about it.Of

1:00:54 > 1:00:56course there are sensitivities in Wales because what happened with the

1:00:56 > 1:00:58issues surrounding Carl Sargeant, but to what extent do you think the

1:00:58 > 1:01:00Assembly and politics in Wales has fallen behind Westminster where they

1:01:00 > 1:01:04seem to be taking actions in terms of making politics safer for women?

1:01:04 > 1:01:05There is certainly action in Westminster but I have been in

1:01:05 > 1:01:08Westminster and the Assembly and I know when I was in Westminster there

1:01:08 > 1:01:10was far more overt sexism operating there than in the Assembly, and I

1:01:10 > 1:01:13think that has been helped by the fact that there has always been a

1:01:13 > 1:01:16good balance of women in the Assembly. So I think Westminster

1:01:16 > 1:01:20have taken steps and I think there have been steps taken in the

1:01:20 > 1:01:25Assembly. I certainly welcome the statement by the presiding officer

1:01:25 > 1:01:28last week about respect, I thought that was very important, and all the

1:01:28 > 1:01:32party leaders have signed up to it. So things are happening but there is

1:01:32 > 1:01:36a lot more to do in that whole field and I would see that as one of my

1:01:36 > 1:01:41priorities.Julie Morgan, thank you for coming in, plenty of campaigning

1:01:41 > 1:01:43on the way few but thanks for coming in.

1:01:43 > 1:01:44That's it for another week.

1:01:44 > 1:01:46Wales Live is on on Wednesday evening at 10:30.

1:01:46 > 1:01:48But for now that's all from me.

1:01:48 > 1:01:50Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.

1:01:50 > 1:01:51Time to go back to Sarah.

1:02:00 > 1:02:02Welcome back.

1:02:02 > 1:02:05Now, he was the Northern Ireland Secretary at a crucial time

1:02:05 > 1:02:06in UK-Ireland relations.

1:02:06 > 1:02:10But late last year, James Brokenshire realised

1:02:10 > 1:02:13he had a health problem, when he began coughing up blood

1:02:13 > 1:02:15whilst on a break with his family.

1:02:15 > 1:02:17Tests revealed a cancerous lesion on his lung and at the start

1:02:17 > 1:02:20of the year he announced his resignation from the Cabinet

1:02:20 > 1:02:23to undergo major surgery.

1:02:23 > 1:02:26His operation was a success and, a few short weeks after being

1:02:26 > 1:02:28discharged from hospital, he has returned to Parliament

1:02:28 > 1:02:30and I'm delighted to say he's also joined us now.

1:02:30 > 1:02:32Welcome to the programme.

1:02:32 > 1:02:37Thank you very much, good to be back.How are you feeling?

1:02:37 > 1:02:41Remarkably well, very strong. First week back in Parliament, which was

1:02:41 > 1:02:45quite emotional, people coming up and giving you hugs. It's

1:02:45 > 1:02:52interesting how something like this, from across the comparative party, a

1:02:52 > 1:02:56unifying issue, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nicky Morgan, coming and welcoming

1:02:56 > 1:03:02you back. And Labour MPs, SNP MPs and the Lib Dems, real warmth. It is

1:03:02 > 1:03:07a rarity, as we know at times, where some of the political bait is very

1:03:07 > 1:03:13intense, to have that very warm reception. So I was very moved.You

1:03:13 > 1:03:18look very vigorous, it is only about six weeks?About six weeks. The care

1:03:18 > 1:03:22and support I received from the NHS was absolutely outstanding. I just

1:03:22 > 1:03:28could not fault the hospital treatment that I received. I suppose

1:03:28 > 1:03:31being disciplined about getting back, getting myself fit, forcing

1:03:31 > 1:03:38myself to do lots of exercise, do lots of walks, having Cassiem my

1:03:38 > 1:03:41children, strong family support behind me as well, it has just been

1:03:41 > 1:03:47amazing. The number of people that are written in, e-mailed, wishing me

1:03:47 > 1:03:50and, whether they support my own party or not, just wanting me to do

1:03:50 > 1:03:55well. So yes, positive. The prognosis is good. I think I was

1:03:55 > 1:04:00lucky that I was able to pick it up early enough. But it has I think

1:04:00 > 1:04:07underlying to me a number of issues about lung cancer, as I had a small

1:04:07 > 1:04:12cancerous Schumer, where there is some stigma Ramis. Around 15% of

1:04:12 > 1:04:17cases of lung cancer have no link to smoking. I think people try and form

1:04:17 > 1:04:20some judgments, that is someone's fault. People shouldn't do that at

1:04:20 > 1:04:25all about cancer. It is about early intervention, picking it up early,

1:04:25 > 1:04:28following it through. There are many moments where I could have said, too

1:04:28 > 1:04:32busy, can't actually do this, but following that through, getting the

1:04:32 > 1:04:36treatment I needed, I am so delighted to be here feeling as

1:04:36 > 1:04:41strong as I am.You are having these tests at a fairly crucial time in

1:04:41 > 1:04:45the Brexit negotiations. You where Northern Ireland Secretary and at

1:04:45 > 1:04:47the very point when the Prime Minister was having to put together

1:04:47 > 1:04:51a deal acceptable to the EU and DUP about what was going to happen to

1:04:51 > 1:04:56prevent a hard border across Ireland at the end of last year, when you

1:04:56 > 1:04:59are still Northern Ireland Secretary, I am sure you have kept

1:04:59 > 1:05:02up with this even though you are now on the backbenches. We have been

1:05:02 > 1:05:05speaking on the programme about the possibility of a customs union with

1:05:05 > 1:05:11the EU. Is it necessary to have one in order to avoid a hard border on

1:05:11 > 1:05:15the island of Ireland?Last time I was here we were touching on that

1:05:15 > 1:05:20issue and the first phase negotiations that had concluded. In

1:05:20 > 1:05:24essence, the three elements we look at, in essence the negotiations on

1:05:24 > 1:05:30the trade arrangement with the EU, if that does provide the issues

1:05:30 > 1:05:33around the border, then specific proposals the UK Government would

1:05:33 > 1:05:36then make and that Ms backstop of alignment to deal with the

1:05:36 > 1:05:42North-South issues.That was a remarkable thing, because you've

1:05:42 > 1:05:46promised full alignment with the rules of the internal market and

1:05:46 > 1:05:50Customs union, basically keeping, in essence, the UK in the single market

1:05:50 > 1:05:54and Customs union if some other solution is found.It is also

1:05:54 > 1:05:56looking at the equivalence issues, of how you can create the same

1:05:56 > 1:06:00outcomes without having full alignment. I think that is

1:06:00 > 1:06:04important. This whole debate around the customs union actually comes

1:06:04 > 1:06:08down to, what is our future relationship with the EU? Do we

1:06:08 > 1:06:13need, as I believe we do, to be able to negotiate agreements externally,

1:06:13 > 1:06:18do we ensure we are not simply a rule taker, that we just abide by

1:06:18 > 1:06:22the rules and almost we voted to leave the EU but we are now even in

1:06:22 > 1:06:27a worse situation of actually being subject to everything but without a

1:06:27 > 1:06:32say at all. I just don't see that as tenable.Yet that is exactly the

1:06:32 > 1:06:36situation we find ourselves in is another solution to the Irish border

1:06:36 > 1:06:40isn't found, isn't it? That is what the Prime Minister signed up to,

1:06:40 > 1:06:43full alignment with the single market and customs union unless

1:06:43 > 1:06:47there is another agreement, which we haven't seen emerge?I believe we

1:06:47 > 1:06:51can agree with the EU, this free trade agreement, deals for goods and

1:06:51 > 1:06:55services, because it is the services element that is really crucial to

1:06:55 > 1:07:03this as well. Whilst also ensuring yes, we don't have that hard border

1:07:03 > 1:07:06emerging on the island of Ireland with everything that goes with it.

1:07:06 > 1:07:09The regulatory issues, yes, there are differences that already exist

1:07:09 > 1:07:12between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, particularly around some

1:07:12 > 1:07:15animal health and animal welfare issues. There is experience we can

1:07:15 > 1:07:18point to and there is a way forward, as to how we negotiate this in the

1:07:18 > 1:07:22weeks I had to get that right outcome.It needs to be started on.

1:07:22 > 1:07:25Michel Barnier wants an agreement about the Irish border before we

1:07:25 > 1:07:32move on to talking about the future trade relationship?The first phase,

1:07:32 > 1:07:35it's a tiered basis approach that we take on how it is about the broad

1:07:35 > 1:07:40issues first and how I believe we can negotiate an outcome that deals

1:07:40 > 1:07:44with the very sensitive issues of the Good Friday Agreement, the

1:07:44 > 1:07:46Belfast agreement, and also the broader issues and North-South

1:07:46 > 1:07:49co-operation on the island of Ireland. So it actually it's about

1:07:49 > 1:07:53going to back to those first phase negotiations, following it through

1:07:53 > 1:07:57and getting the right outcome for the island of Ireland, Northern

1:07:57 > 1:08:01Ireland and the UK as a whole.Some of your colleagues who want to make

1:08:01 > 1:08:03out the Irish border is something of a side issue we shouldn't get too

1:08:03 > 1:08:07worried about say things like the Good Friday Agreement is out of

1:08:07 > 1:08:11date. You must be worried when you hear them say things like that? You

1:08:11 > 1:08:15understand how sensitive it is?When I return to Parliament and made my

1:08:15 > 1:08:19first interventionist league, I was very clear on how the Belfast

1:08:19 > 1:08:24agreement, Good Friday Agreement underpins the situation, the whole

1:08:24 > 1:08:28freedoms and arrangements on the island of Ireland, how it remains as

1:08:28 > 1:08:33relevant now as it has ever done. I know some people picked up on does

1:08:33 > 1:08:38this define Brexit? I think actually there is a ground of commonality and

1:08:38 > 1:08:43realising how important this is. Yes, over time it maybe there are

1:08:43 > 1:08:47certain issues in slower time, once we get devolved government backed up

1:08:47 > 1:08:50and running that you could review, could look at this in a sensible

1:08:50 > 1:08:55fashion. There are certain things that perhaps people have pointed to,

1:08:55 > 1:08:58mandatory coalitions of devolved government in Northern Ireland,

1:08:58 > 1:09:01questioned if that is still the right way forward. That is a

1:09:01 > 1:09:05separate issue, that is in slower time. The Good Friday and Belfast

1:09:05 > 1:09:09agreement continues to underpin and needs to define how we look to the

1:09:09 > 1:09:12future.James Brokenshire, stay with us. We will bring in some of the

1:09:12 > 1:09:18rest of the panel. As you see it, is essentially the question of the

1:09:18 > 1:09:21border with Ireland always going to underline the Brexit talks and

1:09:21 > 1:09:25always be a problem, something difficult for hard Brexiteers who

1:09:25 > 1:09:29want nothing to do with the customs union to get around?It will always

1:09:29 > 1:09:32be a problem until there is a solution. The Irish government

1:09:32 > 1:09:36doesn't want to border, the British government doesn't want border,

1:09:36 > 1:09:39European union doesn't want a border. You have everybody trying to

1:09:39 > 1:09:45go to the point. There was a speech last September in Belfast, you were

1:09:45 > 1:09:49probably there, where it was suggested there should be a customs

1:09:49 > 1:09:54arrangement between Britain and the European Union, between Britain and

1:09:54 > 1:09:59the Republic of Ireland. He suggested that himself. From the

1:09:59 > 1:10:02Torquay, talks is giving at the moment you would think he had never

1:10:02 > 1:10:06said that. I don't know what form that would take but surely if you

1:10:06 > 1:10:09have all three parties to these agreements wanting the same outcome,

1:10:09 > 1:10:15there ought to be a way of doing this.A lot of other things people

1:10:15 > 1:10:21in the EU have said means the means of getting to that outcome is

1:10:21 > 1:10:27difficult?The outcome is easy, everyone agrees. Like the war in

1:10:27 > 1:10:30Iraq, everyone agreed, they wanted peace in the Middle East, how do you

1:10:30 > 1:10:35get there? The fact they all agree on the end is not that significant.

1:10:35 > 1:10:40Indeed, the first phase negotiation which you were nobly involved with,

1:10:40 > 1:10:44and of going tests on Don, reminds me of that first UN resolution in

1:10:44 > 1:10:47the build-up to the war in Iraq. Everyone could sign up to it because

1:10:47 > 1:10:53it meant different things to different people. This is the

1:10:53 > 1:10:55problem, as you know. The Irish government viewed it differently to

1:10:55 > 1:10:58the British government, who viewed it differently from the rest of the

1:10:58 > 1:11:02EU. Now we come to the crunch. I can see no way forward beyond some

1:11:02 > 1:11:05continued membership of the customs union. You can't have a separate

1:11:05 > 1:11:10arrangement for Northern Ireland, the DUP wouldn't buy it for a start.

1:11:10 > 1:11:13I gather that is one of the main reasons why Jeremy Corbyn, was a

1:11:13 > 1:11:17sceptic about all of this, is signing up to it, because he sees

1:11:17 > 1:11:23now this is the only way of keeping the open border.Talking of Jeremy

1:11:23 > 1:11:28Corbyn, one issue we haven't touched on is a story that has been running

1:11:28 > 1:11:31all week about Corbyn's contacts with so-called Czechoslovakian

1:11:31 > 1:11:35agent. It was interesting, the way it is played out, he attacked the

1:11:35 > 1:11:39newspapers for running the stories, really strong attacks from some Tory

1:11:39 > 1:11:44MPs against him which looks like they may have rebounded a bit?The

1:11:44 > 1:11:48thing looking back over this week which has become clear that has come

1:11:48 > 1:11:50out of this Jeremy Corbyn question is Labour know exactly what they are

1:11:50 > 1:11:53doing when it comes to social media and the Conservatives still probably

1:11:53 > 1:11:57don't. If you look at the way Jeremy Corbyn handled this issue, he made

1:11:57 > 1:12:02his Nvidia and put it out on YouTube and Twitter and it got thousands and

1:12:02 > 1:12:07thousands and thousands of hits. Rush might he made his own video. He

1:12:07 > 1:12:11didn't need to speak to newspapers or television to do it. It allows

1:12:11 > 1:12:15free rein to attack a story like this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

1:12:15 > 1:12:19actually have real questions to answer. Whether you think it is

1:12:19 > 1:12:22right or wrong or right or wrong he was giving state secrets, he still

1:12:22 > 1:12:25met this person and that is a question he has to answer. Brendan

1:12:25 > 1:12:29Bradley has had to apologise for the Tweety made. I think one point about

1:12:29 > 1:12:35this that we should all take away is his apology has been re-tweeted and

1:12:35 > 1:12:42is now an attack line and is vicious and picked -- vindictive or so

1:12:42 > 1:12:45people need to be kinder to each other.There was no evidence he was

1:12:45 > 1:12:49selling state secrets or knew any state secrets to give away for free,

1:12:49 > 1:12:52which is why you have this sense that actually the Tories went a

1:12:52 > 1:12:56little too far in describing him as a traitor, saying he betrayed the

1:12:56 > 1:13:00country and they were the ones... Hang on a minute, it was one MP that

1:13:00 > 1:13:05got taken to task for that.He's now been forced to apologise. The

1:13:05 > 1:13:09Defence Secretary said he betrayed his country.You said the whole Tory

1:13:09 > 1:13:11party, yes there were attacks on Jeremy Corbyn and there still are in

1:13:11 > 1:13:19the media. The Sunday time -- Sunday Times today has a 2-page spread

1:13:19 > 1:13:23today. Anyone under the age of 40 just discount this sort of thing. It

1:13:23 > 1:13:30is like in the general section, the stories had no effect on people

1:13:30 > 1:13:34under the age of 40.We have to leave it there, thank you all for

1:13:34 > 1:13:35coming in.

1:13:35 > 1:13:37Join me again, next Sunday at 11, here on BBC One.

1:13:37 > 1:13:40Until then, bye-bye.