0:00:36 > 0:00:38Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:38 > 0:00:39I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:41 > 0:00:43on everything that's moving and shaking in the
0:00:43 > 0:00:46world of politics.
0:00:46 > 0:00:51Theresa May's big Brexit speech appears to have done the impossible
0:00:51 > 0:00:53and united both sides of her party for the time being
0:00:53 > 0:00:55but is the devil in the detail?
0:00:55 > 0:00:59We'll get the verdicts of former Tory leader and Brexit supporter
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Lord Howard and leading backbencher and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,
0:01:02 > 0:01:06and ask if they can really both be happy.
0:01:06 > 0:01:12Away from Brexit, the Government yet again promises to take on the Nimbys
0:01:12 > 0:01:15and build more houses where we need them most.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Later in the programme:
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Carwyn Jones on his visit to North America and questions
0:01:19 > 0:01:20about his leadership, and would this programme
0:01:20 > 0:01:26and others be any different if broadcasting was devolved?
0:01:31 > 0:01:36All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41And with me today, I've got three hardy souls who've struggled
0:01:41 > 0:01:43through the harsh conditions to help me to make sense of all
0:01:43 > 0:01:46the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Well, it was as week where politics was often given second billing
0:01:49 > 0:01:51to the weather, with people up and down the country battling
0:01:51 > 0:01:53the Beast from the East.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56But snow or not, Theresa May had her crucial Brexit speech to give,
0:01:56 > 0:02:02and she had a few big beasts herself to contend with.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Forget the weather, the UK faced a Brexit blizzard this week.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up a clear dividing line between Labour
0:02:12 > 0:02:20and the Conservatives. in a customs union with the EU.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Labour would seek to negotiate a new, comprehensive UK EU customs
0:02:25 > 0:02:28union to ensure there are no tariffs with Europe.
0:02:28 > 0:02:29On Tuesday, international trade secretary Liam Fox
0:02:29 > 0:02:30immediately hit back.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33It would be a complete sell-out of Britain's national interest
0:02:33 > 0:02:38and a betrayal of the voters in the referendum.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42But his speech was overshadowed by a warning shot from the former
0:02:42 > 0:02:45boss of his own department - Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving
0:02:45 > 0:02:48the single market and the customs union would risk the UK
0:02:48 > 0:02:49going from feast to famine.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53It's like giving up a three course meal for a packet of crisps.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson took to the radio
0:02:56 > 0:03:00waves to try to ease tensions on Northern Ireland after Brexit.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02He wasn't entirely persuasive.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05There's no border between Camden and Westminster.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10You can't compare two boroughs of London with the kind
0:03:10 > 0:03:12of difference in the arrangements that would be in place after Brexit
0:03:12 > 0:03:13between the UK and the EU.
0:03:13 > 0:03:18I think it's a very
0:03:18 > 0:03:20On Wednesday, former Prime Minister Sir John Major said
0:03:20 > 0:03:24MPs should be given a free vote on the final Brexit deal.
0:03:24 > 0:03:30So let Parliament decide or put the issue back to the people.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37And the EU Commission published the first legal draft
0:03:37 > 0:03:38of the UK's exit treaty.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41The proposals were controversial.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44in the customs union if all else fails.
0:03:44 > 0:03:49Theresa May was having none of it.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53No UK Prime Minister could ever agree to it.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56On Thursday, diplomatic niceties with the European Council
0:03:56 > 0:03:59President Donald Tusk, as he got a preview of the Prime
0:03:59 > 0:04:03Minister's big Brexit speech.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06But the real test would come later, when she would need a lot
0:04:06 > 0:04:12of grit to keep all members of her own party onside.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14The big day arrived, and with it some hard truths.
0:04:14 > 0:04:15We are leaving the single market.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17We are leaving the single market.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19In certain ways, our access to each other's markets will be
0:04:19 > 0:04:23less than it is now. left the jurisdiction
0:04:23 > 0:04:26of the European Court of Justice, EU law and the decisions of the ECJ
0:04:26 > 0:04:31will continue to affect us.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34This was also a pitch for a pick and mix Brexit.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37She said all EU trade deals are tailor-made and what Britain
0:04:37 > 0:04:39wants is no different.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41If this is cherry picking, then every trade arrangement
0:04:41 > 0:04:45is cherry picking.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48He was happy, and so was he.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53Despite being stranded and left out in the cold.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54So, has the Prime Minister managed
0:04:54 > 0:04:56between her Cabinet on Brexit?
0:04:56 > 0:05:02between her Cabinet on Brexit?
0:05:02 > 0:05:07There is more than enough to chew over with our expert panel who will
0:05:07 > 0:05:13tell us what's been going on behind tell us what's been going on behind
0:05:13 > 0:05:17the scenes this week. Anushka, we asked the question, has she
0:05:17 > 0:05:19the scenes this week. Anushka, we the impossible and
0:05:19 > 0:05:21the scenes this week. Anushka, we factions of the Conservative Party
0:05:21 > 0:05:25over Brexit? It looks that way,
0:05:25 > 0:05:27factions of the Conservative Party it stay that way?It is impressive
0:05:27 > 0:05:31politically that your guests will both have some praise for the
0:05:31 > 0:05:32politically that your guests will but it doesn't mean
0:05:32 > 0:05:35politically that your guests will each other when it comes to Brexit.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39politically that your guests will I'm sure there's a lot they continue
0:05:39 > 0:05:39politically that your guests will to disagree about. She managed to do
0:05:39 > 0:05:42politically that your guests will that by doubling down on the red
0:05:42 > 0:05:44lines she already had but saying
0:05:44 > 0:05:46that by doubling down on the red beyond that we will try to
0:05:46 > 0:05:49that by doubling down on the red close as we can to the EU. I don't
0:05:49 > 0:05:52think the Brexiteers are totally think the Brexiteers are totally
0:05:52 > 0:05:55happy, they see this as a staging post and happy that what she said
0:05:55 > 0:06:01future parliaments can change it. She has done a magic trick now but
0:06:01 > 0:06:02future parliaments can change it. trouble ahead still.Isabel, a lot
0:06:02 > 0:06:04of it was how in the
0:06:04 > 0:06:08trouble ahead still.Isabel, a lot future we will stay tangibly similar
0:06:08 > 0:06:10to EU rules and regulations, that
0:06:10 > 0:06:12future we will stay tangibly similar won't hold with the
0:06:12 > 0:06:15future we will stay tangibly similar will it?Only an idiot would predict
0:06:15 > 0:06:17future we will stay tangibly similar peace and harmony within the Tory
0:06:17 > 0:06:23party for more than a few days.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29party for more than a few days. I think they recognise the immense
0:06:29 > 0:06:30party for more than a few days. I discipline the Prime Minister
0:06:30 > 0:06:34injected into the speech, in some ways that means bits of it don't
0:06:34 > 0:06:36please everybody. There was
0:06:36 > 0:06:39ways that means bits of it don't frustration at the way she handled
0:06:39 > 0:06:42some of the questions afterwards.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43frustration at the way she handled Some would have liked her, for
0:06:43 > 0:06:45frustration at the way she handled example Nigel Farage, outside of the
0:06:45 > 0:06:47party of course, would have
0:06:47 > 0:06:49example Nigel Farage, outside of the her to be more explicit that no deal
0:06:49 > 0:06:52remains an
0:06:52 > 0:06:54her to be more explicit that no deal hand, had she said that, that is
0:06:54 > 0:06:58provocative. I think
0:06:58 > 0:06:59hand, had she said that, that is she struck a balance and a great
0:06:59 > 0:07:06feeling of positivity this weekend, maybe not next.Steve, did it tell
0:07:06 > 0:07:10us a huge amount about what Brexit
0:07:10 > 0:07:11maybe not next.Steve, did it tell deal might look like? Or is Theresa
0:07:11 > 0:07:12maybe not next.Steve, did it tell May sitting on the fence about what
0:07:12 > 0:07:16May sitting on the fence about what the future deal will be?I don't
0:07:16 > 0:07:19think she is sitting on the fence. think she is sitting on the fence.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23She gave a clear idea of what she envisages it to be. Watching it, and
0:07:23 > 0:07:29reading it several times, I have reached the conclusion that she is
0:07:29 > 0:07:30reading it several times, I have the only person that can lead this
0:07:30 > 0:07:36party.
0:07:41 > 0:07:46You have Michael Howard on in a minute, you knows how difficult
0:07:46 > 0:07:46You have Michael Howard on in a is to do. She can do it and I think
0:07:46 > 0:07:48they would be
0:07:48 > 0:07:50is to do. She can do it and I think her. However, having read the
0:07:50 > 0:07:50is to do. She can do it and I think bombs metaphorically
0:07:50 > 0:07:52is to do. She can do it and I think the budgets that go down well on the
0:07:52 > 0:07:57day and then turn out to have hidden bombs, I think this one does. In
0:07:57 > 0:07:59day and then turn out to have hidden admission we are giving up things,
0:07:59 > 0:08:04we won't have the same market access, in saying we have given up
0:08:04 > 0:08:06passporting
0:08:06 > 0:08:08access, in saying we have given up services already. She did it to show
0:08:08 > 0:08:10access, in saying we have given up we weren't having our cake and
0:08:10 > 0:08:13access, in saying we have given up eating it, she was honest, but it is
0:08:13 > 0:08:15depressing to have that candour
0:08:15 > 0:08:17eating it, she was honest, but it is explained so clearly. And in
0:08:17 > 0:08:22explaining we will be fully aligned with the EU in many ways but have
0:08:22 > 0:08:28the right to diverged even if it is against our interest. And the all of
0:08:28 > 0:08:30the right to diverged even if it is this, to have the right to
0:08:30 > 0:08:33the right to diverged even if it is at a future date seems fraught with
0:08:33 > 0:08:35the right to diverged even if it is difficulty. I see problems down
0:08:35 > 0:08:42road.Steve's point about only this Prime Minister can lead the party is
0:08:42 > 0:08:45a very astute one and that's what a very astute one and that's what
0:08:45 > 0:08:48I'm picking up this weekend, even from those who have been her
0:08:48 > 0:08:50I'm picking up this weekend, even harshest critics, at her ability not
0:08:50 > 0:08:53to say too much which makes her seem to say too much which makes her seem
0:08:53 > 0:08:58rather boring at times is precisely the reason she can manage these
0:08:58 > 0:09:03delicate factions. I definitely feel time has run out now for those who
0:09:03 > 0:09:08would like to have seen her gone well before Brexit next year. I feel
0:09:08 > 0:09:09would like to have seen her gone that has evaporated milk. We might
0:09:09 > 0:09:14be in a different place in a few months but I would suspect not.
0:09:14 > 0:09:20Anushka bitchy answer the question about the border between the
0:09:20 > 0:09:28Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon Coveney said he's not sure the
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon can support
0:09:30 > 0:09:31Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon with.Both sides can smile and say
0:09:31 > 0:09:36they don't want a border, the question is how you achieve that.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38they don't want a border, the The Government have put forward
0:09:38 > 0:09:41these options, a customs partnership
0:09:41 > 0:09:42The Government have put forward which is a slightly weird system
0:09:42 > 0:09:45The Government have put forward under which there would be checks on
0:09:45 > 0:09:47the UK border that would then be
0:09:47 > 0:09:48under which there would be checks on acceptable for the rest of the
0:09:48 > 0:09:50under which there would be checks on The problem is the rest of the EU
0:09:50 > 0:09:54have suggested that won't be acceptable to them, and even very
0:09:54 > 0:09:57senior figures in Government around
0:09:57 > 0:09:58acceptable to them, and even very the Cabinet table have told me they
0:09:58 > 0:10:01acceptable to them, and even very think it is a completely unrealistic
0:10:01 > 0:10:06option. The second option is to use technology to make it flow freely,
0:10:06 > 0:10:15perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson was suggesting, it happens in the
0:10:15 > 0:10:15perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson congestion charge in London. He was
0:10:15 > 0:10:18slightly mocked for those
0:10:18 > 0:10:20but can there be a way to make it softer in that way?
0:10:20 > 0:10:22but can there be a way to make it can but there is no evidence
0:10:22 > 0:10:24but can there be a way to make it would end up with no border. Then
0:10:24 > 0:10:27would end up with no border. Then there's that tricky situation of the
0:10:27 > 0:10:31EU saying the backstop is Northern Ireland stays in the customs union,
0:10:31 > 0:10:36and the Prime Minister says that is unacceptable.Thank you for that,
0:10:36 > 0:10:38stay with
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Theresa May was on the Andrew Marr Show this
0:10:40 > 0:10:43morning, and she was asked how the UK's rules and regulations
0:10:43 > 0:10:45might move away from the EU's in the future.
0:10:45 > 0:10:51Parliament will be able to take decisions about the rules that
0:10:56 > 0:10:59are set, so in the circumstances in which the EU
0:10:59 > 0:11:01change a particular rule, there'd be a decision
0:11:01 > 0:11:02for us to take.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Did we accept it in the future or not?
0:11:05 > 0:11:07But if we didn't accept it, there'd be an arbitration mechanism,
0:11:07 > 0:11:08an independent arbitration mechanism, so people
0:11:08 > 0:11:10would look at it and say, actually, you know what,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13if the UK doesn't accept that, does it make any difference
0:11:13 > 0:11:17to the trading relationship? so there's no consequence.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20They might say yes, it does, and so there would be a consequence.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22So you're saying we might lose market access -
0:11:22 > 0:11:24the more we diverge, the more market access
0:11:24 > 0:11:26we might lose in the future.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27There'd be a decision to be taken.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Joining me now from Loughborough is the former
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Education Secretary Nicky Morgan, who put her name down on a Commons
0:11:32 > 0:11:35amendment that calls for the UK to participate in a customs union
0:11:35 > 0:11:37with the EU after Brexit.
0:11:37 > 0:11:43Good morning. So you heard
0:11:43 > 0:11:45Good morning. So you heard the Prime Minister ruling out a customs
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Good morning. So you heard the Prime which is what you say you want, and
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Good morning. So you heard the Prime they will be less access to EU
0:11:50 > 0:11:55markets in future, you cannot be very happy with this speech, can
0:11:55 > 0:11:57you?I thought it was a very
0:11:57 > 0:11:59very happy with this speech, can realistic speech that set out the
0:11:59 > 0:12:04compromises and hard facts we have to face, and I think it was a
0:12:04 > 0:12:06to face, and I think it was a welcome dose of realism. That's why
0:12:06 > 0:12:07to face, and I think it was a I think it has been welcomed
0:12:07 > 0:12:09to face, and I think it was a people on all sides of the debate
0:12:09 > 0:12:11people on all sides of the debate because we can get
0:12:11 > 0:12:12people on all sides of the debate pretending things will stay the
0:12:12 > 0:12:16same, that we can have the same benefits, and be
0:12:16 > 0:12:18same, that we can have the same ourselves and our constituents about
0:12:18 > 0:12:27what that means. The reason MPs put down amendments is to get ministers
0:12:27 > 0:12:31to explain their position is more fully and that's what we began to
0:12:31 > 0:12:36see in the Prime Minister's speech on this issue of the border between
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Northern Ireland, the
0:12:39 > 0:12:39on this issue of the border between Ireland on Friday. The Prime
0:12:39 > 0:12:41Ireland on Friday. The Prime Minister could not have been more
0:12:41 > 0:12:45clear this morning and last week that she does not want to see a hard
0:12:45 > 0:12:47border between them, and that's
0:12:47 > 0:12:50that she does not want to see a hard where we are as well. I think there
0:12:50 > 0:12:54are more discussions to come about the two options, as Anushka was
0:12:54 > 0:12:57are more discussions to come about setting out, that the Prime Minister
0:12:57 > 0:13:00outlined, and we will have to see outlined, and we will have to see
0:13:00 > 0:13:04what happens when the bill comes back to the
0:13:04 > 0:13:04what happens when the bill comes amendment wasn't just about Northern
0:13:04 > 0:13:09Ireland, it said you want the UK to stay in the customs union with the
0:13:09 > 0:13:12EU. Now you say you want to talk to
0:13:12 > 0:13:15stay in the customs union with the the Prime Minister about this. Talk
0:13:15 > 0:13:19about what? We are either in the customs union or knots and her
0:13:19 > 0:13:25speech made it clear she didn't want a customs union.I can speak for
0:13:25 > 0:13:27myself and my colleagues, many of myself and my colleagues, many of
0:13:27 > 0:13:30whom put their name down, it was about the Irish border issue because
0:13:30 > 0:13:35many of us got to the stage of thinking how can this be resolved
0:13:35 > 0:13:41without being in a customs union. I think many of us don't care what
0:13:41 > 0:13:43without being in a customs union. I is called, it's a question of what
0:13:43 > 0:13:46without being in a customs union. I it does. Does it avoid a hard border
0:13:46 > 0:13:50and small traders having to make declarations each time they crossed
0:13:50 > 0:13:55and small traders having to make the border? I was a Treasury duties
0:13:55 > 0:13:56and small traders having to make minister, I visited the Irish border
0:13:56 > 0:14:00and it is 300 miles of incredibly porous countryside basically. People
0:14:00 > 0:14:05are crossing it everyday for work, for trading, and it's not just about
0:14:05 > 0:14:10the economics, it's about the cultural and political significance
0:14:10 > 0:14:18of not a hard border.The Irish government and Irish Foreign
0:14:18 > 0:14:20government and Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney were
0:14:20 > 0:14:21government and Irish Foreign this morning he didn't think EU
0:14:21 > 0:14:25would accept this. Theresa May said a long she doesn't want a hard
0:14:25 > 0:14:29border, just saying that doesn't mean it won't happen and the EU
0:14:29 > 0:14:32don't seem satisfied with what she
0:14:32 > 0:14:34mean it won't happen and the EU laid out as a possible solution.The
0:14:34 > 0:14:37mean it won't happen and the EU first point is, as I said in a tweet
0:14:37 > 0:14:41on Friday, the EU cannot say and Simon Coveney recognise that this
0:14:41 > 0:14:46morning, the EU cannot say it doesn't know what the UK Government
0:14:46 > 0:14:53wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as the Prime Minister rightly set out,
0:14:53 > 0:14:54wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as this is a problem that has been
0:14:54 > 0:14:57created by Brexit and it's up to the UK Government, the EU and Irish
0:14:57 > 0:15:02government to work together to find a solution. I think it
0:15:02 > 0:15:04government to work together to find talks will continue in one of those
0:15:04 > 0:15:06areas where it is best for the Irish areas where it is best for the Irish
0:15:06 > 0:15:11government and UK Government to be talking directly because at
0:15:11 > 0:15:13government and UK Government to be moment what's been remarkable is how
0:15:13 > 0:15:15cohesive the 27 have been in cohesive the 27 have been
0:15:15 > 0:15:22negotiating through the commission but there may be ways to speed up
0:15:22 > 0:15:25discussions, particularly on the Irish border issue. What we
0:15:25 > 0:15:26discussions, particularly on the Friday is the Prime Minister saying
0:15:26 > 0:15:27there's difficult things ahead.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Friday is the Prime Minister saying People won't remember ultimately the
0:15:29 > 0:15:33negotiations, they will remember the enduring deal that's struck, that
0:15:33 > 0:15:39puts livelihoods and economic
0:15:39 > 0:15:40One of the hard
0:15:40 > 0:15:41One of the hard
0:15:41 > 0:15:43One of the hard laid out is we will have less access
0:15:43 > 0:15:47laid out is we will have less access to EU markets. That is
0:15:47 > 0:15:49things that you as a Remainer have been worried about. Maybe she is
0:15:49 > 0:15:51being pragmatic and you're welcome being pragmatic and you're welcome
0:15:51 > 0:15:53that, but is that pragmatism not
0:15:53 > 0:15:55being pragmatic and you're welcome admitting were going to be worse off
0:15:55 > 0:15:58being pragmatic and you're welcome in future as a result of this?I
0:15:58 > 0:16:03think it probably is. Actually, while the speech was well come in
0:16:03 > 0:16:06while the speech was well come in its towns, it did set out some of
0:16:06 > 0:16:10these hard truths. Some people have said, nothing will change, it will
0:16:10 > 0:16:12have exactly the same benefits but
0:16:12 > 0:16:15said, nothing will change, it will that is not the case. I am
0:16:15 > 0:16:17said, nothing will change, it will the Treasury Select Committee, we
0:16:17 > 0:16:19said, nothing will change, it will look at financial services. That
0:16:19 > 0:16:20look at financial services. That industry understands that things are
0:16:20 > 0:16:22industry understands that things are going to change. The Prime Minister
0:16:22 > 0:16:26was clear, no more passporting.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28going to change. The Prime Minister People have reconciled themselves to
0:16:28 > 0:16:33this in the city. What next? The Prime Minister is talking about
0:16:33 > 0:16:33this in the city. What next? The mutual recognition of
0:16:33 > 0:16:38this in the city. What next? The that is the way to go, that is
0:16:38 > 0:16:39this in the city. What next? The achievable, but this is the start of
0:16:39 > 0:16:41negotiations and it is a long way to
0:16:41 > 0:16:43achievable, but this is the start of go. At least we are now on the
0:16:43 > 0:16:50starting blocks. Your right to say that many of us have been concerned
0:16:50 > 0:16:53about the prosperity and livelihoods of people in our constituencies and
0:16:53 > 0:16:57our businesses. We welcome this speech but we will continue to watch
0:16:57 > 0:17:02out for any drifting backwards towards some kind of idea logically
0:17:02 > 0:17:04out for any drifting backwards driven hard Brexit. That does not
0:17:04 > 0:17:07benefit anybody. As the Prime
0:17:07 > 0:17:09driven hard Brexit. That does not Minister said on Friday, reverting
0:17:09 > 0:17:15to WTO is not a good outcome that will benefit people in this country.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17The Prime Minister made clear that The Prime Minister made clear that
0:17:17 > 0:17:19the UK after Brexit can choose
0:17:19 > 0:17:20The Prime Minister made clear that stay aligned with the rules and
0:17:20 > 0:17:22regulations of the EU or future regulations of the EU or future
0:17:22 > 0:17:26parliaments to choose to diverged. In those circumstances you will be
0:17:26 > 0:17:28fighting every step of
0:17:28 > 0:17:30In those circumstances you will be try to stay aligned with the EU, I
0:17:30 > 0:17:36take it?Not necessarily. That was a really well come statement from the
0:17:36 > 0:17:39Prime Minister. It is for the sovereign parliament to be making
0:17:39 > 0:17:45these decisions in future, which is why we had the debate
0:17:45 > 0:17:45these decisions in future, which is amendment in December because
0:17:45 > 0:17:48ultimately it should be sovereign
0:17:48 > 0:17:50amendment in December because Parliament that makes these key
0:17:50 > 0:17:53decisions in the future. In terms of divergences regulation, there may
0:17:53 > 0:17:57well be good arguments in the future by businesses and industry say, we
0:17:57 > 0:18:01do not need to be aligned with that
0:18:01 > 0:18:02by businesses and industry say, we regulation, because there is a
0:18:02 > 0:18:03by businesses and industry say, we higher international standard that
0:18:03 > 0:18:05higher international standard that we can all get around and following
0:18:05 > 0:18:10that will benefit our businesses. The point is, at the moment,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14Parliament will take decisions about things on the basis of listening to
0:18:14 > 0:18:19constituents, and that is what will happen in the future. That is
0:18:19 > 0:18:21welcome. Financial services, that is
0:18:21 > 0:18:24happen in the future. That is the message we're getting by, there
0:18:24 > 0:18:26are some international standards,
0:18:26 > 0:18:27the message we're getting by, there which is what business already
0:18:27 > 0:18:33comply with, higher standards than the EU, and that is what businesses
0:18:33 > 0:18:35want to on complying with.Nicky
0:18:35 > 0:18:37the EU, and that is what businesses Morgan, thank you
0:18:37 > 0:18:39Listening to that is the former Conservative leader Lord Howard,
0:18:39 > 0:18:41who campaigned for Britain to leave the EU.
0:18:41 > 0:18:42You were nodding away
0:18:42 > 0:18:43You were nodding away
0:18:43 > 0:18:45You were nodding away with
0:18:45 > 0:18:46You were nodding away through that interview. Not
0:18:46 > 0:18:49something we thought we were going
0:18:49 > 0:18:50through that interview. Not to see happen in the studio.You
0:18:50 > 0:18:54agree with her? I agree with very much of what she said and I am
0:18:54 > 0:18:57agree with her? I agree with very delighted to be able
0:18:57 > 0:18:59agree with her? I agree with very her. Can I just say this about the
0:18:59 > 0:19:01speech on Friday, I thought
0:19:01 > 0:19:05her. Can I just say this about the should the Prime Minister at her
0:19:05 > 0:19:07best, cam, patient, disciplined.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10should the Prime Minister at her That is exactly the kind of approach
0:19:10 > 0:19:12should the Prime Minister at her we need in these negotiations. I
0:19:12 > 0:19:13should the Prime Minister at her think Steve Richards was right when
0:19:13 > 0:19:16think Steve Richards was right when he said she is the only person who
0:19:16 > 0:19:20can lead the country through these negotiations, and she showed her
0:19:20 > 0:19:23negotiations, and she showed her qualities on Friday, and I think it
0:19:23 > 0:19:27qualities on Friday, and I think it was an excellent speech, and it
0:19:27 > 0:19:28qualities on Friday, and I think it something, of course it is a good
0:19:28 > 0:19:32thing from my point of view that it seems to have united the
0:19:32 > 0:19:36Conservative Party, but more importantly, I think it has united
0:19:36 > 0:19:41the country. I think everyone in the country, except perhaps those few
0:19:41 > 0:19:45people are neither extreme, can rally round. People like John Major
0:19:45 > 0:19:51and Tony Blair? I fear that on this
0:19:51 > 0:19:52rally round. People like John Major issue John Major and Tony Blair are
0:19:52 > 0:19:54to make love the
0:19:54 > 0:19:55issue John Major and Tony Blair are never been able to reconcile
0:19:55 > 0:19:58themselves to the results of the
0:19:58 > 0:20:00never been able to reconcile referendum. I think a large majority
0:20:00 > 0:20:02never been able to reconcile of people in the country, even of
0:20:02 > 0:20:07those who voted Remain, they now say, let's get on with it and see
0:20:07 > 0:20:11what we can get out of these negotiations. Nicky Morgan
0:20:11 > 0:20:14what we can get out of these absolutely right when she said
0:20:14 > 0:20:15what we can get out of these in years to come people will not be
0:20:15 > 0:20:19looking back at the negotiations. They will be looking back at the
0:20:19 > 0:20:23outcome.The negotiations matter because they determine the outcome.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25outcome.The negotiations matter You like the tone of the speech.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28When you look at the detail, does it When you look at the detail, does it
0:20:28 > 0:20:29really amounted taking back control
0:20:29 > 0:20:31When you look at the detail, does it when the Prime Minister says the UK
0:20:31 > 0:20:35will need to make a strong commitment that regulatory standards
0:20:35 > 0:20:39will remain as high as the EU and in practice they will remain similar in
0:20:39 > 0:20:44the future?That is not what you campaign for. In many respects they
0:20:44 > 0:20:46will be similar. As
0:20:46 > 0:20:47campaign for. In many respects they Minister said this morning, on the
0:20:47 > 0:20:53Andrew Marr programme, these regulations are not EU
0:20:53 > 0:20:55Andrew Marr programme, these the international regulations. The
0:20:55 > 0:20:59crucial thing is that our sovereign
0:20:59 > 0:21:00the international regulations. The parliament, in future, will be able
0:21:00 > 0:21:02parliament, in future, will be able to decide whether we remain in a
0:21:02 > 0:21:08layman, which in many cases would be a sensible thing to do, or whether
0:21:08 > 0:21:09layman, which in many cases would be we diverged, which could also be
0:21:09 > 0:21:12we diverged, which could also be sensible. That is what taking back
0:21:12 > 0:21:16control means.The sovereign parliament will decide. Look at
0:21:16 > 0:21:19where we do remain in alignment and where we do remain in alignment and
0:21:19 > 0:21:22a hard fact that Theresa May picked out
0:21:22 > 0:21:24a hard fact that Theresa May picked access we may have to maintain a
0:21:24 > 0:21:28layman. The EU will change their rules over the next few deals --
0:21:28 > 0:21:32over the next few years. We will end up having to mirror rules that we
0:21:32 > 0:21:35over the next few years. We will end had no say at all in making if we
0:21:35 > 0:21:37had no say at all in making if we want to maintain access.That is not
0:21:37 > 0:21:44control. We will be able to decide. In some cases it may be sensible to
0:21:44 > 0:21:46change rules to remain in alignment with the European Union's rules but
0:21:46 > 0:21:53in other cases it will not be, and we will be able to decide. That is
0:21:53 > 0:21:55in other cases it will not be, and what taking back control means.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59You're perfectly happy with associated membership of some of the
0:21:59 > 0:22:04EU agencies, medicine, chemicals, the aviation safety agency, and with
0:22:04 > 0:22:09paying a fee to be -- to be a
0:22:09 > 0:22:11the aviation safety agency, and with member. Very sensible. A year ago
0:22:11 > 0:22:13you would not have
0:22:13 > 0:22:15member. Very sensible. A year ago that you wanted to stay a member of
0:22:15 > 0:22:20any of these agents is a tall.You never ask me. You would have been
0:22:20 > 0:22:22never ask me. You would have been surprised by the answer. These are
0:22:22 > 0:22:26sensible, practical arrangements that we benefit from, and the EU
0:22:26 > 0:22:31benefits.It is sensible. We were promised famously by David Davis
0:22:31 > 0:22:35promised famously by David Davis benefits of being in the customs
0:22:35 > 0:22:40union and the single market after Brexit. The Prime Minister herself
0:22:40 > 0:22:44said something similar. Now she's telling us we will have less access.
0:22:44 > 0:22:49When people were told we could leave the EU and maintain the same
0:22:49 > 0:22:51benefits, were they being lied to?
0:22:51 > 0:22:53the EU and maintain the same Not at all. I think it is a
0:22:53 > 0:22:57consequence of what the Prime Minister has said, that in all
0:22:57 > 0:23:01important respects, we will have the access we need. There may be some
0:23:01 > 0:23:04areas where that will not be
0:23:04 > 0:23:06access we need. There may be some case, but she dealt with the most
0:23:06 > 0:23:06access we need. There may be some important aspect in her speech on
0:23:06 > 0:23:08Friday and should have in the most Friday and should have in the most
0:23:08 > 0:23:12important areas
0:23:12 > 0:23:13Friday and should have in the most have access. I think that will be
0:23:13 > 0:23:17the outcome. It is in the interests of the European Union as well as
0:23:17 > 0:23:20of the European Union as well as ourselves that that should be
0:23:20 > 0:23:22of the European Union as well as They want access to our large
0:23:22 > 0:23:24market. We are one of
0:23:24 > 0:23:26They want access to our large biggest economies in the world. They
0:23:26 > 0:23:28want access to our markets. It will
0:23:28 > 0:23:30biggest economies in the world. They be on both our interest to reach
0:23:30 > 0:23:35that sort of agreement.Both wings of the Tory party might be happy
0:23:35 > 0:23:39with this. The speech was received less enthusiastically in Brussels.
0:23:39 > 0:23:44The EU will publish their draft guidelines on how they see a future
0:23:44 > 0:23:46deal on Tuesday. If they do not accept the approach that Theresa May
0:23:46 > 0:23:51accept the approach that Theresa May has laid out, what should she do
0:23:51 > 0:23:53accept the approach that Theresa May next?Let's concentrate on the
0:23:53 > 0:23:57positives. We are in a negotiation. There will inevitably be posturing
0:23:57 > 0:24:01by the European Union in the course of these negotiations. That is what
0:24:01 > 0:24:07negotiations always bring with them. But I think, as I say, it is in
0:24:07 > 0:24:08negotiations always bring with them. our interest that we should have a
0:24:08 > 0:24:14good deal. At the end of the day, they want our money. They will not
0:24:14 > 0:24:18get our money unless there is a good deal.It has been said that a trade
0:24:18 > 0:24:23deal cannot be said by putting up a few extra cherries in the Brexit
0:24:23 > 0:24:29cake. This speech did not persuade him that is a deal to be done.He
0:24:29 > 0:24:30cake. This speech did not persuade not in charge of the negotiations.
0:24:30 > 0:24:37Michel Barnier did not seem terribly impressed. Are they going to accept
0:24:37 > 0:24:40the Prime Minister's view that you can accept
0:24:40 > 0:24:43the Prime Minister's view that you different sectors?Let's wait and
0:24:43 > 0:24:45the Prime Minister's view that you see. Michel Barnier welcome the
0:24:45 > 0:24:50speech. There is lots of posturing. It is invading tress and hours to
0:24:50 > 0:24:52arrive at a
0:24:52 > 0:24:53It is invading tress and hours to similar to that which the Prime
0:24:53 > 0:24:58Minister set on Friday.You're being very positive about with the EU is
0:24:58 > 0:25:01likely to do. They may well not do likely to do. They may well not do
0:25:01 > 0:25:03that. Is there a point at which the
0:25:03 > 0:25:05likely to do. They may well not do Prime Minister may be forced to walk
0:25:05 > 0:25:07Prime Minister may be forced to walk away because they will not meet
0:25:07 > 0:25:12halfway?I hope not but if you go into any negotiations in, I want to
0:25:12 > 0:25:18deal at any price, you will be taken to the cleaners. That is true of
0:25:18 > 0:25:19every negotiation. I agree with the
0:25:19 > 0:25:22to the cleaners. That is true of Prime Minister when she says that in
0:25:22 > 0:25:26the ultimate circumstance, no deal is better than a bad deal,
0:25:26 > 0:25:27the ultimate circumstance, no deal not think we're going to have a bad
0:25:27 > 0:25:29not think we're going to have a bad deal, I think we're going to have a
0:25:29 > 0:25:31deal along the lines the Prime
0:25:31 > 0:25:33deal, I think we're going to have a Minister set out on Friday.She
0:25:33 > 0:25:34deal, I think we're going to have a we are going to have to
0:25:34 > 0:25:40deal, I think we're going to have a and we are not going to get what we
0:25:40 > 0:25:44want. We will have to meet someone in
0:25:44 > 0:25:46want. We will have to meet someone response from the EU has not been to
0:25:46 > 0:25:48say, we agree, let's talk about say, we agree, let's talk about
0:25:48 > 0:25:50to maintain a lot of
0:25:50 > 0:25:53say, we agree, let's talk about lines about cherry picking.That
0:25:53 > 0:25:53say, we agree, let's talk about will change. Their approach to the
0:25:53 > 0:25:56negotiations on the
0:25:56 > 0:25:58will change. Their approach to the changed. All sorts of figures were
0:25:58 > 0:25:59bandied about about the
0:25:59 > 0:26:02changed. All sorts of figures were would have to pay and they bore no
0:26:02 > 0:26:05reality to the ultimate outcome.
0:26:05 > 0:26:05would have to pay and they bore no have to take these initial
0:26:05 > 0:26:10negotiating positions with a pinch negotiating positions with a pinch
0:26:10 > 0:26:12of salt.When the EU was negotiating
0:26:12 > 0:26:14negotiating positions with a pinch with Greece during its financial
0:26:14 > 0:26:16crisis, they were absolutely insistent, they did not soften their
0:26:16 > 0:26:24lines.No disrespect to Greece, but we are not Greece. The European
0:26:24 > 0:26:30Union needs access to our markets. The European Union needs our money.
0:26:30 > 0:26:31Union needs access to our markets. The situation is very, very
0:26:31 > 0:26:33Union needs access to our markets. different from that which happened
0:26:33 > 0:26:38between the EU and Greece.Lord Howard, thank you for talking to us
0:26:38 > 0:26:40this morning.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn made his own big speech on Brexit
0:26:42 > 0:26:45earlier in the week and he backed a customs union.
0:26:45 > 0:26:46So how would it work?
0:26:46 > 0:26:48With me from Salford is the Shadow Communities
0:26:48 > 0:26:49Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.
0:26:49 > 0:26:54Thank you very much for coming in speak to us today. We have got to
0:26:54 > 0:26:58make a very different approaches. Jeremy Corbyn at
0:26:58 > 0:26:58make a very different approaches. the week saying he wanted to stay in
0:26:58 > 0:27:03the week saying he wanted to stay in a customs union, Theresa May on
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is it not Theresa May who is being
0:27:08 > 0:27:11honest with the voters by laying out honest with the voters by laying out
0:27:11 > 0:27:14the hard fact, as she puts it, that we will have to accept we have less
0:27:14 > 0:27:21access to the EU market?Absolutely not. That we are leaving the
0:27:21 > 0:27:23European Union is decided. We had
0:27:23 > 0:27:25not. That we are leaving the referendum, but the Thames by
0:27:25 > 0:27:26not. That we are leaving the we leave the European Union is what
0:27:26 > 0:27:29the negotiations are all about
0:27:29 > 0:27:29we leave the European Union is what the Labour Party has always said it
0:27:29 > 0:27:35would seek to maintain the benefits of a customs union. In
0:27:35 > 0:27:37would seek to maintain the benefits we have set out our proposals for
0:27:37 > 0:27:38would seek to maintain the benefits what we think that new arrangement
0:27:38 > 0:27:43should be, I bespoke agreement should be, I bespoke agreement
0:27:43 > 0:27:45between the EU in the UK that would between the EU in the UK that would
0:27:45 > 0:27:48maintain the benefits
0:27:48 > 0:27:48between the EU in the UK that would trade between the UK and the
0:27:48 > 0:27:53European Union going forward. But one in which we are equal partners,
0:27:53 > 0:27:59so we have a say on those new trade deals that are being made and a half
0:27:59 > 0:28:04of the new arrangements between our two trading blocs.That has never
0:28:04 > 0:28:06happened with any other country that
0:28:06 > 0:28:07two trading blocs.That has never has entered into a customs union
0:28:07 > 0:28:09has entered into a customs union with the EU. Why do you think they
0:28:09 > 0:28:12would give us an equal say, one of
0:28:12 > 0:28:15with the EU. Why do you think they us against 27 of them,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17with the EU. Why do you think they to a negotiating a trade deal with
0:28:17 > 0:28:20someone else somewhere else in the world?The EU is different trading
0:28:20 > 0:28:21world?The EU is different trading arrangements with different
0:28:21 > 0:28:26countries.It does and none of them have a say in outside
0:28:26 > 0:28:29countries.It does and none of them The difference here, as Lord Howard
0:28:29 > 0:28:34said, we are the largest economy the said, we are the largest economy the
0:28:34 > 0:28:35world. The European Union has
0:28:35 > 0:28:39said, we are the largest economy the important trading
0:28:39 > 0:28:41United Kingdom, it is a two-way process, and therefore it is in
0:28:41 > 0:28:43United Kingdom, it is a two-way of interest that we strike a deal
0:28:43 > 0:28:46United Kingdom, it is a two-way that benefits both of us.I do not
0:28:46 > 0:28:49know what is happening on this programme. You are agreeing with
0:28:49 > 0:28:51Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with
0:28:51 > 0:28:55Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual
0:28:55 > 0:29:00morning.You're all in the same side. The
0:29:00 > 0:29:00morning.You're all in the same Conservatives have ruled out a
0:29:00 > 0:29:05customs union, and we are saying that a customs
0:29:05 > 0:29:05customs union, and we are saying least that we can give real
0:29:05 > 0:29:07least that we can give real assurances that the Good Friday
0:29:07 > 0:29:11Agreement and our treaty obligations in the Good Friday Agreement are not
0:29:11 > 0:29:13torn up. We do
0:29:13 > 0:29:15in the Good Friday Agreement are not advantage is that we have seen of 20
0:29:15 > 0:29:20years of peace between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
0:29:20 > 0:29:22If
0:29:22 > 0:29:23Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. customs union but you do not get a
0:29:23 > 0:29:28large say in future trade deals with countries outside of the EU and
0:29:28 > 0:29:29large say in future trade deals with just have to accept what is
0:29:29 > 0:29:33negotiated by the EU 27, would you negotiated by the EU 27, would you
0:29:33 > 0:29:36still want to be in that customs union?We would have to look at that
0:29:36 > 0:29:46carefully. We want to be a rule maker and not a real taker.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48carefully. We want to be a rule hard to do that if you
0:29:48 > 0:29:48carefully. We want to be a rule customs union. Unless you have a
0:29:48 > 0:29:51carefully. We want to be a rule arrangement whereby the
0:29:51 > 0:29:51carefully. We want to be a rule Kingdom sits at the table when those
0:29:51 > 0:29:52Kingdom sits at the table when those trade deals are being made. That is
0:29:52 > 0:29:57trade deals are being made. That is make. We believe we would be in
0:29:57 > 0:29:59trade deals are being made. That is better position to make those
0:29:59 > 0:29:59better position to make those arrangements with the European Union
0:29:59 > 0:30:03because we have approached the Brexit negotiations in an entirely
0:30:03 > 0:30:06different manner. We have said what different manner. We have said what
0:30:06 > 0:30:10we would like to see in terms of transitional
0:30:10 > 0:30:10we would like to see in terms of government subsequently followed on
0:30:10 > 0:30:15a number of those issues, but all along we have said that we want to
0:30:15 > 0:30:17along we have said that we want to maintain the benefits of tariff free
0:30:17 > 0:30:22custom free trade, and that is absolutely crucial, not least for
0:30:22 > 0:30:24the Northern Ireland issue.One
0:30:24 > 0:30:26absolutely crucial, not least for the things the Labour Party was
0:30:26 > 0:30:30looking forward to have to Brexit, and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,
0:30:30 > 0:30:32was the freedom from
0:30:32 > 0:30:35and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed, rules, where the EU stops the UK
0:30:35 > 0:30:37Government from giving
0:30:37 > 0:30:37rules, where the EU stops the UK assistance to any particular sector
0:30:37 > 0:30:43of industry. Theresa May spoke about that on Friday and said it
0:30:43 > 0:30:45of industry. Theresa May spoke about necessary to sign up to the
0:30:45 > 0:30:46of industry. Theresa May spoke about directives on state aid and
0:30:46 > 0:30:50procurement rules, to keep those EU rules. Do you accept that will have
0:30:50 > 0:30:55to
0:30:55 > 0:31:01No, and we have a different view anyway. When it came to our
0:31:01 > 0:31:02arguments the Government
0:31:02 > 0:31:06anyway. When it came to our in to assist the steel industry in
0:31:06 > 0:31:08anyway. When it came to our Britain, the Government used these
0:31:08 > 0:31:09anyway. When it came to our fallacies about state aid rules to
0:31:09 > 0:31:12excuse themselves for not giving
0:31:12 > 0:31:13fallacies about state aid rules to adequate support to that industry.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15We didn't believe in the
0:31:15 > 0:31:17adequate support to that industry. interpretation the Government made
0:31:17 > 0:31:18adequate support to that industry. because other European countries
0:31:18 > 0:31:24have got round the so-called state aid rules. We have said as part of
0:31:24 > 0:31:28our negotiations, that is a red line for us. We would want to make sure
0:31:28 > 0:31:35we could facilitate state aid in a number of areas where Labour Party
0:31:35 > 0:31:37policies have been clearer about
0:31:37 > 0:31:37number of areas where Labour Party supporting our industries.If that
0:31:37 > 0:31:42is a red line, is it more important staying in the customs union, if
0:31:42 > 0:31:45is a red line, is it more important have to make the choice? The EU
0:31:45 > 0:31:47could say no customs union if you
0:31:47 > 0:31:53have to make the choice? The EU insist on state aid.We believe we
0:31:53 > 0:31:58could get a bespoke arrangement for a new customs relationship, a new
0:31:58 > 0:32:03customs union.I think there's a name for that, isn't it called
0:32:03 > 0:32:05cherry picking?No because
0:32:05 > 0:32:06name for that, isn't it called believe this is in the interests of
0:32:06 > 0:32:10believe this is in the interests of the UK and in the interests of the
0:32:10 > 0:32:16European Union. 44% of our trade is with the European Union, 53% of the
0:32:16 > 0:32:19EU's trade is with the UK so it is
0:32:19 > 0:32:21with the European Union, 53% of the in both our interests that we sort
0:32:21 > 0:32:27this out and get the best deal not
0:32:27 > 0:32:29in both our interests that we sort for the European
0:32:29 > 0:32:29in both our interests that we sort Britain outside of the European
0:32:29 > 0:32:31Union.You seem to be saying
0:32:31 > 0:32:33Britain outside of the European Tory government are asking for
0:32:33 > 0:32:34Britain outside of the European impossible in their negotiations and
0:32:34 > 0:32:36Britain outside of the European won't get what they are looking for
0:32:36 > 0:32:38Britain outside of the European but somehow if there was a Labour
0:32:38 > 0:32:44government negotiating this deal, all doors would open
0:32:44 > 0:32:44government negotiating this deal, be able to select which bit of the
0:32:44 > 0:32:46government negotiating this deal, customs union you did
0:32:46 > 0:32:48government negotiating this deal, like and could have a bespoke deal
0:32:48 > 0:32:51government negotiating this deal, that is not available for some
0:32:51 > 0:32:55reason to Theresa May.They ruled out a customs union, I think that is
0:32:55 > 0:33:01a bad decision because I believe a customs union, negotiated between
0:33:01 > 0:33:07the UK and the European Union 27 is in the best
0:33:07 > 0:33:09the UK and the European Union 27 is customs free tariff-free trade going
0:33:09 > 0:33:12the UK and the European Union 27 is forward but also sorting
0:33:12 > 0:33:14the UK and the European Union 27 is issue of the border between Ireland,
0:33:14 > 0:33:18north and south.Labour set out six north and south.Labour set out six
0:33:18 > 0:33:19tests as to whether
0:33:19 > 0:33:21north and south.Labour set out six for the Brexit deal in the end and
0:33:21 > 0:33:23north and south.Labour set out six one of those was that it had to
0:33:23 > 0:33:26one of those was that it had to deliver the same benefits we get
0:33:26 > 0:33:30from being in the single market and customs union. That was a quote from
0:33:30 > 0:33:32David Davis, but Theresa May
0:33:32 > 0:33:34customs union. That was a quote from been clear we are not going to get
0:33:34 > 0:33:39the same benefits. Does this mean Labour under
0:33:39 > 0:33:43the same benefits. Does this mean be able to vote for any Brexit deal
0:33:43 > 0:33:45be able to vote for any Brexit deal that's been negotiated?Let's see
0:33:45 > 0:33:49what Brexit deal comes back before we have a hypothetical vote on this.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51You don't think there's
0:33:51 > 0:33:53we have a hypothetical vote on this. circumstances in which it could come
0:33:53 > 0:33:58back...I believe if the Government wanted to enter into negotiations to
0:33:58 > 0:34:03do that, they could do that. The fact the Prime Minister has conceded
0:34:03 > 0:34:04is probably because they
0:34:04 > 0:34:07fact the Prime Minister has conceded out a customs union. We believe that
0:34:07 > 0:34:09fact the Prime Minister has conceded is the wrong decision, we believe
0:34:09 > 0:34:12that arrangement is
0:34:12 > 0:34:13is the wrong decision, we believe let's see what the Government comes
0:34:13 > 0:34:18back with and then we will decide how we vote in parliament.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Parliament has got a meaningful vote
0:34:21 > 0:34:22how we vote in parliament. and that was something that had to
0:34:22 > 0:34:26be secured through the parliamentary processes. The Government weren't
0:34:26 > 0:34:29going to give
0:34:29 > 0:34:33processes. The Government weren't think it is right it is ultimately
0:34:33 > 0:34:35processes. The Government weren't Parliament that decides.Thank you.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:34:37 > 0:34:38Still to come...
0:34:38 > 0:34:41As the government promises to cut red tape to get more houses built,
0:34:41 > 0:34:43we'll ask the Cabinet Office minister David Lidington
0:34:43 > 0:34:45whether they're finally prepared to take on the nimbys.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics
0:34:47 > 0:34:50where you are.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01In a few minutes' time, the American Ambassador on what kind
0:35:01 > 0:35:04of Brexit deal would suit US firms in Wales, and should
0:35:04 > 0:35:08broadcasting be devolved from Westminster to Cardiff Bay?
0:35:08 > 0:35:15If so, how could it work?
0:35:15 > 0:35:17But first, Carwyn Jones has spent St David's Day in North America,
0:35:17 > 0:35:19drumming up business and making contacts.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21Here at home, questions over Labour's policy on Brexit
0:35:21 > 0:35:23and his own future have continued.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26When my colleague Daniel Davies caught up with him a few days ago
0:35:26 > 0:35:28in New York, he put it to the First Minister
0:35:28 > 0:35:31that it was difficult to show real benefits to Wales from
0:35:31 > 0:35:34overseas visits such as these.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37People appreciate that I'm here.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40Yesterday I was in Philadelphia, I met with two companies there
0:35:40 > 0:35:43with plans to expand in Wales and they value the fact you take
0:35:43 > 0:35:46the time to come and see them, they want to show
0:35:46 > 0:35:50you their facilities in the States.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52It's a competitive world and we have to be out there flying the flag
0:35:52 > 0:35:55for Wales to make sure the flow of jobs continues.
0:35:55 > 0:36:02Let's look at exports to North America from Wales -
0:36:02 > 0:36:05between 2012 and 2016 they fell by £1 billion so it shows
0:36:05 > 0:36:07those visits you've been making over those four years,
0:36:07 > 0:36:10it's not having much impact in that department.
0:36:10 > 0:36:11Far from it.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13We're seeing more jobs being created in Wales,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16I'm confident that at the end of this visit we'll see
0:36:16 > 0:36:18more being announced in the future as well.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23We want to help exporters look at the US market and I met some
0:36:23 > 0:36:27in Washington on Monday to help them to understand the US,
0:36:27 > 0:36:31its regulations and licensing, and that's why we have offices
0:36:31 > 0:36:34around North America and soon one in Canada as well.
0:36:34 > 0:36:39While you're here, back home the opposition are saying your
0:36:39 > 0:36:43position on trade after Brexit is complete chaos.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46You have been sending out mixed signals, haven't you,
0:36:46 > 0:36:48on what sort of trading arrangements you want?
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Stay in the Customs Union, full and unfettered access
0:36:51 > 0:36:54to the Single Market, if there is some kind of free trade
0:36:54 > 0:36:57agreement between Europe and the US that works in the future then fine.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00We talk of chaos - the other parties, come on!
0:37:00 > 0:37:02The mess they are in, the Conservative Party
0:37:02 > 0:37:05have an extremist wing who want to cut us off
0:37:05 > 0:37:11from Europe completely, a pragmatic wing who are kicking
0:37:11 > 0:37:12us all over the place.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14I've no idea what the UK Government's endgame is here.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17We have been clear over the past year as to what
0:37:17 > 0:37:18we would like to see.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21You have said consistently you want to stay in the Customs Union
0:37:21 > 0:37:24but you said before coming here that you would press the case
0:37:24 > 0:37:26for a free trade agreement between the UK and the US.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29It's inconsistent.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31It's a backstop.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33Absolutely we want to stay in the Customs Union and get full
0:37:33 > 0:37:35access to the Single Market.
0:37:35 > 0:37:39The UK Government says it doesn't want to do that
0:37:39 > 0:37:42so you explore your options, any rational government would do
0:37:42 > 0:37:44that but the preferred option has to be to stay
0:37:44 > 0:37:47within the Customs Union.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50So it does sound a bit that you want to have your cake and eat it,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53the very thing you have been accusing the Brexiteers are doing.
0:37:53 > 0:37:56You want to stay in the Customs Union, you also want to talk
0:37:56 > 0:37:57about free trade with America.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59You keep your options open.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02Let's be clear, I think the UK should stay in the Customs Union.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05There is no evidence to suggest we would be better off
0:38:05 > 0:38:06outside the Customs Union.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10The UK Government could decide to take us out of the Customs Union,
0:38:10 > 0:38:12so then it makes sense to explore less palatable options
0:38:12 > 0:38:14but options nevertheless.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16You have to cover all your bases when involved in politics
0:38:16 > 0:38:19but let me be clear, staying in the Customs Union
0:38:19 > 0:38:22is the best way forward for Wales.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25How many more trips like this do you think you'll make
0:38:25 > 0:38:26as First Minister?
0:38:26 > 0:38:27It's difficult to tell.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29It's as and when.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32With the US, being here on St David's Day is hugely important.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34We hosted a reception on Capitol Hill on Monday night,
0:38:34 > 0:38:37very well attended, creating those political connections.
0:38:37 > 0:38:42It's important for us to know what's happening in US politics in terms
0:38:42 > 0:38:47of what might happen as far as market access for the future.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50We have more than 20 congressmen who are part of a Welsh caucus
0:38:50 > 0:38:56who work with us to understand what's happening in US politics.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59In terms of other visits it's as and when.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01What I'm getting at is for how much longer are you going to be
0:39:01 > 0:39:04as First Minister able to come here?
0:39:04 > 0:39:07Why don't you set a timetable for your time in office,
0:39:07 > 0:39:08as your predecessor did?
0:39:08 > 0:39:11I know that was what you were asking, carefully, you may come out
0:39:11 > 0:39:14and ask the question.
0:39:14 > 0:39:19What you have to do is carry on, from my perspective of course
0:39:19 > 0:39:23there comes a point where somebody else would step into the role
0:39:23 > 0:39:27of First Minister, of course that's natural but for the moment
0:39:27 > 0:39:29I'm focused on getting jobs.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32The opposition parties haven't been talking about jobs or business
0:39:32 > 0:39:37or getting investment to Wales in the last few weeks,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39this is what I'm here to do.
0:39:39 > 0:39:46What we care about is can you get skilled, well-paid jobs into Wales
0:39:46 > 0:39:47from the US and Canada?
0:39:47 > 0:39:49That's what this trip is about.
0:39:49 > 0:39:50And you're not tempted to lay out a timetable,
0:39:50 > 0:39:54as Rhodri Morgan did, for when you might stand down?
0:39:54 > 0:39:58No, I think from my perspective it's a question of looking
0:39:58 > 0:40:01forward to the future.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05I think it is hugely important with all the enquiries we have,
0:40:05 > 0:40:10it is hugely important to see those through.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13I think it would be quite wrong for anybody to disappear
0:40:13 > 0:40:20in the middle of that process and that is hugely important.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22And we'll stick with the US for a moment,
0:40:22 > 0:40:25because overnight Donald Trump has taken to Twitter to step up
0:40:25 > 0:40:27a row over trade tariffs.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30Last week, before this row escalated, the US ambassador
0:40:30 > 0:40:32was in Wales for St David's Day.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35Robert Johnson - Woody to his friends -
0:40:35 > 0:40:37is a wealthy businessman,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40so when Nick Servini spoke to him he obviously asked him about trade
0:40:40 > 0:40:44after Brexit and what kind of deal his country would favour.
0:40:44 > 0:40:50We want to sell and we want to buy, so the best way to do
0:40:50 > 0:40:52that is what we will be interested in.
0:40:52 > 0:40:57This is the big debate here and now I'm spending a lot of time on that
0:40:57 > 0:41:00but that's the way America look at it.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03There are tens of thousands of Welsh workers working
0:41:03 > 0:41:05for American companies.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09When you speak to US firms are they concerned
0:41:09 > 0:41:12about the impact of Brexit?
0:41:12 > 0:41:17Business doesn't like uncertainty so as a businessman myself,
0:41:17 > 0:41:21you're always trying to get rid of uncertainty or go into
0:41:21 > 0:41:23environments which are more certain.
0:41:23 > 0:41:29Our jobs are analysing risk and reward so uncertainty raises
0:41:29 > 0:41:33the risks and you don't know how it's going to turn out,
0:41:33 > 0:41:37so as this rolls through, as Brexit rolls through,
0:41:37 > 0:41:45clarity will become more clear.
0:41:45 > 0:41:50And many of those companies came to the UK, came to Wales primarily
0:41:50 > 0:41:55because it offered a gateway to the rest of the EU.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58Do you think in future if there are trading barriers
0:41:58 > 0:42:02between the UK and the rest of the EU, that will affect future
0:42:02 > 0:42:03investment decisions?
0:42:03 > 0:42:07I think rather than speculate you will have to see.
0:42:07 > 0:42:08It will always be a gateway for somewhere, Europe as well,
0:42:08 > 0:42:10it will always be that, because of the language
0:42:10 > 0:42:15and because of the culture, the historical relationships
0:42:15 > 0:42:17and the legal system, it's very important,
0:42:17 > 0:42:23and that has to do with certainty and uncertainty.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27People talk about the special relationship between
0:42:27 > 0:42:33the UK and the States.
0:42:33 > 0:42:37When you look at Brexit, I wonder, does it make sense to leave
0:42:37 > 0:42:42the EU and not be able to strike your own trade deals
0:42:42 > 0:42:45with the rest of the world, which is what would happen
0:42:45 > 0:42:50if we stayed in the Customs Union?
0:42:50 > 0:42:53I think the Americans have quite a large investment in the UK,
0:42:53 > 0:43:00trillions of dollars and millions of jobs on both sides of the pond,
0:43:00 > 0:43:04so we would like, our preference as stated by Wilbur Ross,
0:43:04 > 0:43:07Secretary of Commerce, was leave room for the US,
0:43:07 > 0:43:15leave room for relationships outside of the EU and so what he meant
0:43:15 > 0:43:19by that is there's a big world out there.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22It's a fascinating time for you in the job.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25With such an unspoken president do you find yourself firefighting
0:43:25 > 0:43:27diplomatically all the time?
0:43:27 > 0:43:35Not really, because I think the citizens of the UK are starting
0:43:36 > 0:43:41to understand the President a little better because he now been
0:43:41 > 0:43:48in for a little over a year and the market has gone up from,
0:43:48 > 0:43:54probably at 20%, up to, what...
0:43:54 > 0:43:59It started about 19,000 and now it's about 26,000, a good jump.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03What do you think we need to understand about him?
0:44:03 > 0:44:06I think that what you have to understand about this President
0:44:06 > 0:44:09is understand what he's doing, what he's done and what he's
0:44:09 > 0:44:12accomplished in one year.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15People have said in his first year he's already accomplished
0:44:15 > 0:44:19close to 70% of his objectives.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21That's pretty amazing, especially since it was very hard
0:44:21 > 0:44:25for him to get people appointed and all the obstacles
0:44:25 > 0:44:31that were thrown up, some self-inflicted you might say,
0:44:31 > 0:44:35but whatever way you look at him, I think you have to look
0:44:35 > 0:44:40at the accomplishments, the taxes, the employment levels,
0:44:40 > 0:44:46the customer confidence levels and all that,
0:44:46 > 0:44:50the changes in the military which he said he wanted to do
0:44:50 > 0:44:55and that's started in a major way and just the optimism of Americans
0:44:55 > 0:45:00right now in terms of making sure the middle class is growing
0:45:00 > 0:45:03and people are feeling more optimistic finally about leaving
0:45:03 > 0:45:07the place better than they found it which was starting to disappear.
0:45:07 > 0:45:08Mr Johnson...
0:45:08 > 0:45:09One year!
0:45:09 > 0:45:11Mr Johnson, thank you very much.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13Thank you.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16Now, should programmes broadcast in Wales be controlled from here?
0:45:16 > 0:45:19One leading academic says that could mean less money
0:45:19 > 0:45:21to spend on services.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23This week the Welsh Government said the time wasn't
0:45:23 > 0:45:25right for such a move.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28So how practical could it be and what might be the benefits?
0:45:28 > 0:45:31Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.
0:45:31 > 0:45:38This is BBC Radio Wales.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40Welcome to the program.
0:45:40 > 0:45:42Wales is waking up to another day of disruption.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45Heavy snowfall and strong winds overnight...
0:45:45 > 0:45:48When Wales turns white, people reach for their radios,
0:45:48 > 0:45:51turn on their TVs and hit the web.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55Without thinking, broadcasting comes into its own as people tune
0:45:55 > 0:45:58in and get online for the latest info, so does it matter
0:45:58 > 0:46:01who controls this?
0:46:01 > 0:46:05This week Elfed Wyn Jones ended his seven-day hunger strike
0:46:05 > 0:46:07to push for transferring powers over Welsh language broadcasting
0:46:07 > 0:46:10from Westminster to Cardiff Bay.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13Plaid also held a debate on the topic in the Senedd.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17The devolution of broadcasting is more important than ever in order
0:46:17 > 0:46:21to ensure that Wales has a voice.
0:46:21 > 0:46:27This isn't the time to start to talk about devolving broadcasting
0:46:27 > 0:46:31partially or to consider devolution of any part of broadcasting to Wales
0:46:31 > 0:46:34as part of the development of the devolution settlement.
0:46:34 > 0:46:39So we asked two experts, Dr Jamie Midhurst and Dr Ruth McIlroy,
0:46:39 > 0:46:43what difference having control would make and why we should care.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47It's how we hear ourselves represented or how we learn
0:46:47 > 0:46:50something about parts of the world that we've never visited.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53The late Dr John Davies, fantastic Welsh historian,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56argued that Wales was an artefact created by broadcasting
0:46:56 > 0:46:58in some senses.
0:46:58 > 0:47:00Yes, we know that Wales existed geographically
0:47:00 > 0:47:03but if you like as an entity.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07Ofcom regulate all the public service broadcasters serving Wales,
0:47:07 > 0:47:10including the BBC, ITV and S4C.
0:47:10 > 0:47:15Crucially both the BBC and ITV are UK-wide broadcasters but have
0:47:15 > 0:47:18certain requirements in serving Welsh audiences, the BBC
0:47:18 > 0:47:21with a wider remit in terms of the services
0:47:21 > 0:47:23it's meant to provide.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26S4C is mainly funded by the UK government and the BBC licence fee
0:47:26 > 0:47:30but that arrangement is under independent review.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33There are some issues about what Wales understands
0:47:33 > 0:47:36about itself, particularly devolution, but also what the rest
0:47:36 > 0:47:40of the UK understands by devolution so it's natural that we would expect
0:47:40 > 0:47:44to hear these campaigns coming forward from time to time to time.
0:47:44 > 0:47:50So when we say the devolution of broadcasting, what do we mean?
0:47:50 > 0:47:52It's unclear what the methodology would be for raising funding
0:47:52 > 0:47:55so if we take the BBC as one example, currently that's
0:47:55 > 0:47:57paid for by the licence fee that we all pay.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01One way of doing that would be to cut that
0:48:01 > 0:48:06appropriately to the populations of the different nations.
0:48:06 > 0:48:09That could mean we end up with less money.
0:48:09 > 0:48:13At the moment one could argue that the DCMS funding
0:48:13 > 0:48:17in London is ring-fenced, it's safe, it's not
0:48:17 > 0:48:19battling anything else.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23If it were to come to Cardiff, then you have the other devolved
0:48:23 > 0:48:25areas such as education - large areas, education, health,
0:48:25 > 0:48:30transport, economy and broadcasting.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34Since BBC Wales began in the 1960s, one of the main arguments is that
0:48:34 > 0:48:36devolving broadcasting would help the understanding of
0:48:36 > 0:48:40specifically Welsh issues.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42I think there would be no point going through the process
0:48:42 > 0:48:44of devolving broadcasting without also trying to get improved
0:48:44 > 0:48:46representation on screen.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I'm sure many of us have had the experience of watching the news
0:48:49 > 0:48:54and hearing a reporter tell us that this is the case in England
0:48:54 > 0:48:57and we never then find out what is the case in Wales,
0:48:57 > 0:48:58Scotland or Northern Ireland.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01How would Welsh language programming be helped?
0:49:01 > 0:49:05One member of S4C's governing body says it wouldn't be.
0:49:05 > 0:49:09Wales tends to vote Labour and Labour, understandably
0:49:09 > 0:49:14like all political parties, looks after its base and its base
0:49:14 > 0:49:18arguably is not the Welsh speaking communities that are particularly
0:49:18 > 0:49:23grateful for the existence of S4C, so the idea that there would be more
0:49:23 > 0:49:28money for it if controls moved from Whitehall to Cardiff Bay
0:49:28 > 0:49:29is a bit of a fantasy.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31You're watching BBC 1 Wales.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34Now it's time for the Six O'Clock News...
0:49:34 > 0:49:36But ultimately how relevant is this debate?
0:49:36 > 0:49:39With the growth of digital TV, the ability to watch it
0:49:39 > 0:49:42from the other side of the world online and social media,
0:49:42 > 0:49:49what control can any government hope to have over the media we consume?
0:49:49 > 0:49:52Now, after hearing from the Prime Minister and Labour
0:49:52 > 0:49:54leader about their latest views on Brexit, this week
0:49:54 > 0:49:57Plaid Cymru has a debate in the Commons on the issue.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01It will use the debate to make the argument for UK citizens
0:50:01 > 0:50:03being able to retain EU citizenship after Brexit.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07But how could that work?
0:50:07 > 0:50:14The party's Economy Spokesman, Adam Price, is with me now.
0:50:14 > 0:50:21How would that work?There is a legal dimension to this and a more
0:50:21 > 0:50:28personal perspective. Legally, people in Wales and the rest of the
0:50:28 > 0:50:33UK are currently EU citizens and that has conferred valuable rights,
0:50:33 > 0:50:38the ability to work and study in Europe and enjoy free health care
0:50:38 > 0:50:46and that will continue after Brexit because of EU law.There will be a
0:50:46 > 0:50:52transitional period and it's unclear what will after that.People like
0:50:52 > 0:50:58me, we will all under this differently but people like me feel
0:50:58 > 0:51:03passionately European and to a certain extent might Welshness and
0:51:03 > 0:51:07might European this are connected. We come from our civilisation of
0:51:07 > 0:51:13Celts that were known as the fathers of Europe.Let's bring it forward a
0:51:13 > 0:51:20few centuries to where we are now, and how would it work, read
0:51:20 > 0:51:26containing European citizenship after Brexit? Once the UK has left,
0:51:26 > 0:51:34what will that mean?It will mean that everyone who was an EU citizen
0:51:34 > 0:51:42before Brexit will continue to enjoy those rights.Freedom of movement.
0:51:42 > 0:51:48Yes, and free health care which is important in terms of travel and
0:51:48 > 0:51:53studying. There is the question about what could happen to associate
0:51:53 > 0:51:58citizenship as well which is a matter for discussion but it is
0:51:58 > 0:52:03accepted by most legal observers under the Treaty of Lisbon but you
0:52:03 > 0:52:08cannot remove from an individual the right of citizenship.But would you
0:52:08 > 0:52:15then accept that EU citizens would be free to travel to the UK?That is
0:52:15 > 0:52:21a different question, it is reciprocity.But it is essential as
0:52:21 > 0:52:25the EU Commission would have to agree to this and they will not
0:52:25 > 0:52:35agree unless there's a dozens the same rights.No, and Steve Hoss cat
0:52:35 > 0:52:43-- guy for hot start accepts that in that rights for individuals will
0:52:43 > 0:52:49continue, and if you want to look back at other examples in
0:52:49 > 0:52:52international law, the Irish Republic and its citizens continue
0:52:52 > 0:53:00to have rights within the UK.But what about in future if young people
0:53:00 > 0:53:05want to go and study in the EU, they wouldn't have the same rights as
0:53:05 > 0:53:13their parents.Though, and this is then the issue of associate
0:53:13 > 0:53:18citizenship, which would be a matter of negotiation because it will not
0:53:18 > 0:53:27exist as a legal right but could be a future option.But if you want
0:53:27 > 0:53:31that enhanced write for future generations to travel in the EU, the
0:53:31 > 0:53:36EU will want something back, they will say if you want to come and
0:53:36 > 0:53:40have free health care in the EU and free travel, our citizens have to
0:53:40 > 0:53:50have the same thing.I can see the argument.Is it something that
0:53:50 > 0:53:57voters in the UK would accept as we have voted to leave the EU?The
0:53:57 > 0:54:00option of an associate citizenship model could be something for
0:54:00 > 0:54:07consideration. The key point is that rights that are there in law for
0:54:07 > 0:54:12current EU citizens cannot be taken away, valuable rights need to be
0:54:12 > 0:54:19protected.One of the reasons the UK voted to leave was because of
0:54:19 > 0:54:23immigration, it seems you are proposing something that does not
0:54:23 > 0:54:30get to grips with the problem is that threw up.I think the issue of
0:54:30 > 0:54:36migration was largely to do with the politics of it and a feeling of
0:54:36 > 0:54:42economic distress in communities that have been neglected for
0:54:42 > 0:54:47generations and I think the responsibility for that largely lies
0:54:47 > 0:54:54with the political establishment that has not invested sufficiently.
0:54:54 > 0:54:58What is the answer? People voted to leave, you seem to be saying there
0:54:58 > 0:55:02will be no change on immigration in future and that's not what people
0:55:02 > 0:55:10voted for.The solution to economic distress that communities like
0:55:10 > 0:55:14myself have felt that expressed itself in that vote does not lie
0:55:14 > 0:55:21with migration but in economic justice.It seems to me you were
0:55:21 > 0:55:25ignoring the will of the people who voted because of concerns on
0:55:25 > 0:55:33immigration.People voted for a variety of reasons but they did vote
0:55:33 > 0:55:37because of economic distress that some of them associated with
0:55:37 > 0:55:45migration policy but the answer to that is economic justice. It is
0:55:45 > 0:55:49conservative and Labour governments that haven't invested in
0:55:49 > 0:55:54communities, that is the answer to the problem, the answer is to take
0:55:54 > 0:55:59back control. We have a Westminster government engaging in a power grab.
0:55:59 > 0:56:05He was talking about the sovereignty of the UK and is now taking back
0:56:05 > 0:56:10sovereignty from Wales so we cannot address our economic problems.You
0:56:10 > 0:56:15are now talking about the EU Withdrawal Bill, a different issue,
0:56:15 > 0:56:20and the UK Government says there will be more parents coming to Wales
0:56:20 > 0:56:26after Brexit, clearly you don't believe that but I want to come back
0:56:26 > 0:56:29to things like freedom of movement, if you had that it would make it
0:56:29 > 0:56:33easier to remain in the Customs Union and the single market if that
0:56:33 > 0:56:41was what you wanted to do. Is that what this is part of?Wales has been
0:56:41 > 0:56:45shafted politically for it generations, you could say for
0:56:45 > 0:56:50centuries and we are being shafted again and we have to demand a future
0:56:50 > 0:56:56for our nation.And that is a historical side but what about the
0:56:56 > 0:57:04future?We're moving from a European Common Market to a UK Common Market
0:57:04 > 0:57:09and we accept the need for common rules but we are being offered a
0:57:09 > 0:57:14system for the English Parliament, that is what Westminster is, we need
0:57:14 > 0:57:20a UK Common Market for each of the four Nations has an equal voice but
0:57:20 > 0:57:32instead we are being given a system where
0:57:32 > 0:57:34where England has a supermajority through a Westminster parliament
0:57:34 > 0:57:37dominated by English MPs. We want to see our White Paper for each of the
0:57:37 > 0:57:40four nations has an equal voice so they UK Common Market is a Common
0:57:40 > 0:57:43Market of four nations.Thank you for your time.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45That's it for this week.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47Don't forget about Wales Live on Wednesday night at 10:30pm.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50You can also follow all the latest on Twitter -
0:57:50 > 0:57:50we're @walespolitics.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52But for now that's all from me.
0:57:52 > 0:57:54Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57Time to go back to Sarah.
0:57:57 > 0:57:57welcome back.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00So how about a bit of a break from Brexit?
0:58:00 > 0:58:02This morning the government announced new plans to make it
0:58:02 > 0:58:05easier for more houses to be built, with rules to cut red
0:58:05 > 0:58:08tape so that there can be more homes in areas
0:58:08 > 0:58:09where they are needed the most.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12The government says they will take on what they call the "Nimby
0:58:12 > 0:58:14councils" who don't build enough.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16However, their problem is that a lot of these councils are Conservative.
0:58:16 > 0:58:19So could we be about to see a battle between local
0:58:19 > 0:58:20and central government?
0:58:20 > 0:58:22With me now with hopefully all the answers is Cabinet Office
0:58:22 > 0:58:24Minister David Lidington.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26Thanks very
0:58:26 > 0:58:27Thanks very much for coming in.Good
0:58:27 > 0:58:29Thanks very much for coming in.Good morning. If you're going to try and
0:58:29 > 0:58:31build more homes in
0:58:31 > 0:58:32morning. If you're going to try and of England, which is where
0:58:32 > 0:58:35morning. If you're going to try and demand is highest, these are going
0:58:35 > 0:58:37morning. If you're going to try and to be your own councillors
0:58:37 > 0:58:39morning. If you're going to try and taking on over this?If you talk to
0:58:39 > 0:58:40most Conservative councillors they
0:58:40 > 0:58:42taking on over this?If you talk to will get the need for more homes and
0:58:42 > 0:58:47their significant growth in house building. Actually, if you talk to
0:58:47 > 0:58:50councils in my area you will
0:58:50 > 0:58:52building. Actually, if you talk to councils that are getting on in
0:58:52 > 0:58:54building. Actually, if you talk to house-building rates anywhere in the
0:58:54 > 0:58:59country.Under this government house-building rates have
0:58:59 > 0:59:00country.Under this government significantly. Fewer new houses a
0:59:00 > 0:59:07year than there were under the Labour government, 223,000 in 2007,
0:59:07 > 0:59:12217,000, fewer now than word being built under the last Labour
0:59:12 > 0:59:15government.The number
0:59:15 > 0:59:16built under the last Labour last year was 217,000, the
0:59:16 > 0:59:20second-highest annual house-building figure in 30 years. That is
0:59:20 > 0:59:23second-highest annual house-building record to be ashamed of. We have
0:59:23 > 0:59:24also increased considerably the
0:59:24 > 0:59:25record to be ashamed of. We have spending on affordable homes in the
0:59:25 > 0:59:27delivery of affordable
0:59:27 > 0:59:30spending on affordable homes in the council homes compared with what the
0:59:30 > 0:59:33Labour government achieved. More council houses have been built since
0:59:33 > 0:59:362010 than the entire 13 years in the 2010 than the entire 13 years in the
0:59:36 > 0:59:38Labour government before that.The number of affordable homes being
0:59:38 > 0:59:44built
0:59:44 > 0:59:47built is going down. In 2010 it was 61,000, last year was 40,000.
0:59:47 > 0:59:49built is going down. In 2010 it was is exactly why we have put in £9
0:59:49 > 0:59:50billion, an extra 2 billion in
0:59:50 > 0:59:52is exactly why we have put in £9 last year alone, into the affordable
0:59:52 > 0:59:57housing programme. What we need to do is to get the new homes built.
0:59:57 > 1:00:01That takes us to the planning announcement that is being made
1:00:01 > 1:00:03announcement that is being made tomorrow, with a new national
1:00:03 > 1:00:08planning policy framework for public consultation. Houses and residents'
1:00:08 > 1:00:10planning policy framework for public groups can feedback their views on
1:00:10 > 1:00:14that. When I talk to councils
1:00:14 > 1:00:14groups can feedback their views on find, and I talk to residents
1:00:14 > 1:00:19concerned about new development, what they want is to know
1:00:19 > 1:00:20concerned about new development, is going to be the infrastructure,
1:00:20 > 1:00:25there is going to be the public services to support new housing. I
1:00:25 > 1:00:29find increasingly people get the need for new housing.People get the
1:00:29 > 1:00:32find increasingly people get the need for new housing, they just do
1:00:32 > 1:00:34not want it anywhere near them. That not want it anywhere near them. That
1:00:34 > 1:00:38is where the phrase Nimby comes from.I think that is being unfair.
1:00:38 > 1:00:46When I say to
1:00:51 > 1:00:53people, all can your children grandchildren afford to get on the
1:00:53 > 1:00:56housing ladder, you see the heads
1:00:56 > 1:00:59grandchildren afford to get on the They get the importance
1:00:59 > 1:00:59grandchildren afford to get on the that we are living independently for
1:00:59 > 1:01:01that we are living independently for need more accommodation, there are
1:01:01 > 1:01:03more
1:01:03 > 1:01:05need more accommodation, there are of population than we had in the
1:01:05 > 1:01:07past. As well as having the
1:01:07 > 1:01:09of population than we had in the planned for, so that the locations,
1:01:09 > 1:01:12as in the new guard in towns and
1:01:12 > 1:01:13planned for, so that the locations, cities programme are being properly
1:01:13 > 1:01:18planned for, you also need the infrastructure, the transport, the
1:01:18 > 1:01:21planned for, you also need the broadband to support that. That is
1:01:21 > 1:01:24why the housing infrastructure fund has been set up, so that local
1:01:24 > 1:01:26why the housing infrastructure fund councils can bid for
1:01:26 > 1:01:27why the housing infrastructure fund unlocking development opportunities.
1:01:27 > 1:01:32unlocking development opportunities. The government has said this morning
1:01:32 > 1:01:38that Nimbys need to be tackled. But the Nimbys and in the Cabinet. You
1:01:38 > 1:01:40have said this needs to be
1:01:40 > 1:01:42way that protects the green belt. The housing minister says every
1:01:42 > 1:01:47effort must be made to avoid building in the green belt. The
1:01:47 > 1:01:51Prime Minister Minister said that local authorities may only alter
1:01:51 > 1:01:58green belt boundaries in exceptional circumstances.
1:02:00 > 1:02:05circumstances.No, not at all, you are underestimating the
1:02:05 > 1:02:08circumstances.No, not at all, you belt is important. If you come back
1:02:08 > 1:02:11to the Chilterns green belt area, to the Chilterns green belt area,
1:02:11 > 1:02:16for people living in London, living in Luton, High Wycombe, Milton
1:02:16 > 1:02:20Keynes, Watford, these are places expanding, new houses are
1:02:20 > 1:02:25Keynes, Watford, these are places built. Having that nearby is
1:02:25 > 1:02:29something that is really important so we need to plan housing alongside
1:02:29 > 1:02:33conservation which is why when the planning framework is announced
1:02:33 > 1:02:34conservation which is why when the tomorrow and the Prime Minister
1:02:34 > 1:02:38makes her big speech on housing, we are also saying this will be
1:02:38 > 1:02:40are also saying this will be developed alongside and taking
1:02:40 > 1:02:43are also saying this will be account of what Michael Gove and the
1:02:43 > 1:02:45environment Department are doing
1:02:45 > 1:02:47account of what Michael Gove and the with a 25 year plans to improve the
1:02:47 > 1:02:49environment of our country.Let me
1:02:49 > 1:02:51with a 25 year plans to improve the take you back to the speech
1:02:51 > 1:02:54with a 25 year plans to improve the Prime Minister made on Friday, her
1:02:54 > 1:02:56Brexit speech. She made it clear
1:02:56 > 1:02:58Prime Minister made on Friday, her of the hard facts was we weren't
1:02:58 > 1:03:00going to get everything we
1:03:00 > 1:03:03of the hard facts was we weren't You are as close as you can beat her
1:03:03 > 1:03:05of the hard facts was we weren't thinking on this, what will she
1:03:05 > 1:03:12compromise on?Tempted as I am, I'm not going to go into a detailed
1:03:12 > 1:03:14negotiating position. We accept that
1:03:14 > 1:03:17not going to go into a detailed what we put forward is ambitious,
1:03:17 > 1:03:22also credible idea for a close economic partnership with the EU in
1:03:22 > 1:03:25the future. The PM said in the text the future. The PM said in the text
1:03:25 > 1:03:29of the speech that neither of us will end up with everything they
1:03:29 > 1:03:32wanted. What we need to do now is wanted. What we need to do now is
1:03:32 > 1:03:34see the EU's opening position, to
1:03:34 > 1:03:36wanted. What we need to do now is sit down and start to work through
1:03:36 > 1:03:45in detail some of these points about the law, how you deliver our
1:03:45 > 1:03:45in detail some of these points about objectives of as frictionless trade
1:03:45 > 1:03:47as possible, our economic
1:03:47 > 1:03:47objectives of as frictionless trade partnership in the future that
1:03:47 > 1:03:52allows cross-border spy chains to continue in a way that works to our
1:03:52 > 1:03:57advantage and that of the EU 27 countries alike.The Irish
1:03:57 > 1:04:00government don't seem
1:04:00 > 1:04:01countries alike.The Irish about this, Simon Coveney said this
1:04:01 > 1:04:07about this, Simon Coveney said this morning he doesn't then -- think the
1:04:07 > 1:04:11EU will agree to it so
1:04:11 > 1:04:15morning he doesn't then -- think the closer to fixing the problem.Simon
1:04:15 > 1:04:17Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as
1:04:17 > 1:04:18others have also the way to solving
1:04:18 > 1:04:20Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as the responsibilities over the Irish
1:04:20 > 1:04:23border and avoiding the hard
1:04:23 > 1:04:26the responsibilities over the Irish as to do that in the context of an
1:04:26 > 1:04:28the responsibilities over the Irish overall EU UK economic partnership
1:04:28 > 1:04:30the responsibilities over the Irish for the future, and go back to
1:04:30 > 1:04:31the responsibilities over the Irish PM's speech on Friday and she set
1:04:31 > 1:04:35out a number of elements of
1:04:35 > 1:04:38PM's speech on Friday and she set deal on goods that would mean the
1:04:38 > 1:04:42and the EU
1:04:42 > 1:04:45deal on goods that would mean the standards so British and European
1:04:45 > 1:04:50goods circulated freely without the need for border checks or paperwork.
1:04:50 > 1:04:56That's what the Irish said they don't think the EU will agree to.
1:04:56 > 1:04:57That's what the Irish said they think it is in the interests of the
1:04:57 > 1:04:59EU to have this
1:04:59 > 1:05:01think it is in the interests of the these sorts of detail are what we
1:05:01 > 1:05:06need to get into to understand where difficulties lie. The Prime Minister
1:05:06 > 1:05:10also talks about a customs arrangement or partnership
1:05:10 > 1:05:13also talks about a customs EU 27 in the future that would allow
1:05:13 > 1:05:17us to simplify and eliminate some of these problems. We already have
1:05:17 > 1:05:24agreement on the continuation of the Common travel area which means free
1:05:24 > 1:05:25agreement on the continuation of the movement of people across the
1:05:25 > 1:05:29jurisdiction
1:05:29 > 1:05:30movement of people across the island of Ireland and Ireland and
1:05:30 > 1:05:35the UK. What the Cabinet are committed to, and it was laid out in
1:05:35 > 1:05:38the PM's speech, is that we see
1:05:38 > 1:05:39committed to, and it was laid out in as essential to ensure there is not
1:05:39 > 1:05:44a hard border on the island of Ireland, that every aspect of the
1:05:44 > 1:05:47Good Friday Agreement, both east-west and north-south, is upheld
1:05:47 > 1:05:52in full.Moving onto President
1:05:52 > 1:05:55east-west and north-south, is upheld Trump, he's threatening tariffs on
1:05:55 > 1:05:55east-west and north-south, is upheld cars imported into the US which
1:05:55 > 1:05:59would include cars coming from the would include cars coming from the
1:05:59 > 1:06:06UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over 100,000 into the US. If he makes
1:06:06 > 1:06:06UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over good on the threat of 10% tariffs,
1:06:06 > 1:06:10what will the UK do about that?At
1:06:10 > 1:06:12good on the threat of 10% tariffs, the moment we are part of the EU and
1:06:12 > 1:06:16would be talking with the commission would be talking with the commission
1:06:16 > 1:06:20and European partners about our collective response to this. I just
1:06:20 > 1:06:30think that the United States is not taking an advisable course. Trade
1:06:30 > 1:06:35wars don't do anybody any good.But you know there's every possibility
1:06:35 > 1:06:42Donald will go with this so what
1:06:42 > 1:06:44you know there's every possibility would the EU do?We would have to
1:06:44 > 1:06:46you know there's every possibility see what happens. There's a lot of
1:06:46 > 1:06:50concern recently about something comparable as regards to aviation
1:06:50 > 1:06:54and the aircraft we produced in part in Belfast and the American
1:06:54 > 1:06:57authorities at the end of the day to
1:06:57 > 1:07:01in Belfast and the American drop back down and said no,
1:07:01 > 1:07:03not the way we should be going.We tried in Britain in the 1960s
1:07:03 > 1:07:08getting our car industry from competition. It didn't work, it
1:07:08 > 1:07:14protected inefficiencies, we lost all our export markets because
1:07:14 > 1:07:17protected inefficiencies, we lost competitors went out and gobble them
1:07:17 > 1:07:19up and the car industry had to
1:07:19 > 1:07:20through a very painful restructuring up and the car industry had to
1:07:20 > 1:07:21through a very painful restructuring to get to the success story it is
1:07:21 > 1:07:26now. Once we have left the European Union
1:07:26 > 1:07:28and customs union, we will
1:07:28 > 1:07:30Once we have left the European Union to respond to a tariff or trade war
1:07:30 > 1:07:33to respond to a tariff or trade war like this entirely differently so if
1:07:33 > 1:07:34to respond to a tariff or trade war this were happening in three years,
1:07:34 > 1:07:39what would the British government be able to do in response to American
1:07:39 > 1:07:44president threatening tariffs?That is likely piling hypothesis on
1:07:44 > 1:07:48hypothesis, but it would also depend in part on the nature
1:07:48 > 1:07:50hypothesis, but it would also depend agreement that I hope we
1:07:50 > 1:07:52hypothesis, but it would also depend with the EU on industrial goods and
1:07:52 > 1:07:55cross-border supply chains but we
1:07:55 > 1:07:56with the EU on industrial goods and would be free to impose our own
1:07:56 > 1:07:58trade defence measures against
1:07:58 > 1:08:01would be free to impose our own country that is trying
1:08:01 > 1:08:02would be free to impose our own the UK market and the bill is
1:08:02 > 1:08:04the UK market and the bill is currently going through Parliament
1:08:04 > 1:08:06the UK market and the bill is will give the UK authorities the
1:08:06 > 1:08:10power to do just that.David Lidington, thanks for talking to us
1:08:10 > 1:08:18this morning. We will now turn to our expert Anil and what they think
1:08:18 > 1:08:24it means for the future. Steve, this idea of the potential of
1:08:24 > 1:08:26it means for the future. Steve, this battle going on between the EU and
1:08:26 > 1:08:28it means for the future. Steve, this US takes us to part of whether the
1:08:28 > 1:08:34UK can make up its own responses, doesn't it?Yes, and it's very
1:08:34 > 1:08:39interesting David Lidington saying we are leaping several hurdles here
1:08:39 > 1:08:47because he hopes that post Brexit the UK and the EU are lined terms of
1:08:47 > 1:08:52other sectors. Whether they get that sector by sector deal is highly
1:08:52 > 1:08:54questionable so that's one of the
1:08:54 > 1:08:56sector by sector deal is highly several hoops that it is
1:08:56 > 1:09:00sector by sector deal is highly to navigate. If you have a president
1:09:00 > 1:09:02sector by sector deal is highly of the United States who is a
1:09:02 > 1:09:03sector by sector deal is highly protectionist butting up tariffs,
1:09:03 > 1:09:05that
1:09:05 > 1:09:08protectionist butting up tariffs, of the world. No country operates
1:09:08 > 1:09:15alone in this global market. That is the harsh reality. It has been lost
1:09:15 > 1:09:16sometimes in arguments
1:09:16 > 1:09:17the harsh reality. It has been lost sovereignty and Britain going it
1:09:17 > 1:09:21sovereignty and Britain going it alone and the rest of it. It
1:09:21 > 1:09:23sovereignty and Britain going it immediate impact on
1:09:23 > 1:09:24sovereignty and Britain going it country and they are partly
1:09:24 > 1:09:27sovereignty and Britain going it powerless to do very much about it.
1:09:27 > 1:09:35Is Donald Trump threatening this is a clearer example as to why Britain
1:09:35 > 1:09:39Is Donald Trump threatening this is needs to leave the customs union,
1:09:39 > 1:09:41Isabel?I think
1:09:41 > 1:09:43needs to leave the customs union, better deal with the EU than Donald
1:09:43 > 1:09:49Trump
1:09:49 > 1:09:53Trump does. Trump hates the EU, he doesn't hate Britain, he wants
1:09:53 > 1:09:58doesn't hate Britain, he wants things to work well for us. He has
1:09:58 > 1:10:00doesn't hate Britain, he wants been very consistent about that and
1:10:00 > 1:10:04always said America first so I agree, it is possible he will go
1:10:04 > 1:10:09ahead with this but also equally it is possible that we will
1:10:09 > 1:10:11ahead with this but also equally it something very positive with the US.
1:10:11 > 1:10:13ahead with this but also equally it We did promise we will talk about
1:10:13 > 1:10:15something other than Brexit for something other than Brexit for
1:10:15 > 1:10:17small parts of the programme so small parts of the programme so
1:10:17 > 1:10:19let's pick up on the housing announcement coming tomorrow from
1:10:19 > 1:10:22the Government. It feels like
1:10:22 > 1:10:27announcement coming tomorrow from six months or so the Government will
1:10:27 > 1:10:31-- promised they will build more homes, and I being cynical?I think
1:10:31 > 1:10:36what they are promising now is exactly what they promised in the
1:10:36 > 1:10:38what they are promising now is White Paper on housing, this is just
1:10:38 > 1:10:44fleshing it out. It is the exact same announcement. That said, what's
1:10:44 > 1:10:46quite good about this, to some
1:10:46 > 1:10:48same announcement. That said, what's extent I think the language is too
1:10:48 > 1:10:54aggressive about councils and that is what Labour is picking up on. For
1:10:54 > 1:10:59a long time, politicians have focused on things which are demand
1:10:59 > 1:11:05side in the housing market because it is sexier. Help to buy, right to
1:11:05 > 1:11:08buy, and yet they can exacerbate the problem because if anything while
1:11:08 > 1:11:11helping a few
1:11:11 > 1:11:13problem because if anything while pushing up prices potentially. What
1:11:13 > 1:11:14problem because if anything while they are doing here unapologetically
1:11:14 > 1:11:19is focusing on the supply side and that's what they need to do. It
1:11:19 > 1:11:22isn't very sexy, it is not on every front page today, the speech
1:11:22 > 1:11:28tomorrow won't have as much of an effect as the speech on Friday but
1:11:28 > 1:11:32this is probably one of the biggest crisis facing the country.Probably
1:11:32 > 1:11:38something voters care more about than Brexit?And the timing of this
1:11:38 > 1:11:42is very interesting, coming up to local elections in London Tories are
1:11:42 > 1:11:47expected to do very badly. Sadiq Khan's record on housing is
1:11:47 > 1:11:49extremely questionable to say the
1:11:49 > 1:11:51Khan's record on housing is least and I think this is
1:11:51 > 1:11:55Khan's record on housing is where the Tory party senses it
1:11:55 > 1:11:56Khan's record on housing is be more proactive.Is there enough
1:11:56 > 1:11:58Khan's record on housing is oxygen in the room
1:11:58 > 1:12:00Khan's record on housing is concentrate on housing for voters to
1:12:00 > 1:12:04get the message or ministers to push
1:12:04 > 1:12:07concentrate on housing for voters to this through?Voters have got the
1:12:07 > 1:12:11message. Grandparents understand it even if they don't want house
1:12:11 > 1:12:14building near them because their grandchildren cannot buy because
1:12:14 > 1:12:19they cannot afford to in certain parts of the country so everybody
1:12:19 > 1:12:24agrees about the ens, we need more housing, it is just another means. I
1:12:24 > 1:12:27housing, it is just another means. I completely agree that right to buy
1:12:27 > 1:12:31doesn't address the issue of more housing. This does partly but I
1:12:31 > 1:12:35think the cabinet needs a housing minister in the Cabinet accountable
1:12:35 > 1:12:39and to say right, we are going to
1:12:39 > 1:12:40minister in the Cabinet accountable build this number through various
1:12:40 > 1:12:42minister in the Cabinet accountable means and I am accountable to
1:12:42 > 1:12:46minister in the Cabinet accountable sure it happens. It needs that
1:12:46 > 1:12:48minister in the Cabinet accountable of focus.At the same time as
1:12:48 > 1:12:53Brexit, it should be housing?Yes, they have the right issue. There are
1:12:53 > 1:12:59many issues, Brexit is sucking up to much energy. There are tonnes of
1:12:59 > 1:13:00many issues, Brexit is sucking up to shoes we should be focusing on but
1:13:00 > 1:13:08this is one of them.Excellent, thank you for coming in.
1:13:08 > 1:13:10Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.
1:13:10 > 1:13:17Until then, bye-bye.